When the painful reality of racial injustice collides with the power of faith and activism, conversations can ignite change. That's the essence of this week's episode where Antowan and I begin to traverse the landscape of black experiences in America, unearthing stories of resilience and examining the role of the church in racial justice. Antowan with his profound insights as a senior pastor and community leader, highlights the transformative impact of holiday outreach while reflecting on personal battles against medical bias and the pernicious myth of black pain tolerance.
The dialogue intensifies as we confront the hefty matters of institutional racism and the dire need for reparations. We don't just scratch the surface; we dig into the roots of historical revisionism and dissect the systemic barriers that perpetuate inequality. Antowan’s eloquent narrative intertwines with mine to shine a light on the daily trials faced by black communities in the United States. The church's dual role, both as a historical oppressor and a current vehicle for social justice, is dissected, revealing a tapestry of Christian nationalism that has seeped into political arenas.
Our journey concludes with a forward gaze at America's future amidst global political shifts and a reflection on the stagnated progress since the days of Martin Luther King Jr. The potency of our exchange lies in the blend of solemn contemplation and sparks of humor, as we toy with the notion of escape to extraterrestrial lands. Yet, the commitment to foster understanding through dialogue remains steadfast. As listeners, you're invited to absorb these narratives and join us in grappling with the pressing racial disparities that mark our nation's present.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
When the painful reality of racial injustice collides with the power of faith and activism, conversations can ignite change. That's the essence of this week's episode where Antowan and I begin to traverse the landscape of black experiences in America, unearthing stories of resilience and examining the role of the church in racial justice. Antowan with his profound insights as a senior pastor and community leader, highlights the transformative impact of holiday outreach while reflecting on personal battles against medical bias and the pernicious myth of black pain tolerance.
The dialogue intensifies as we confront the hefty matters of institutional racism and the dire need for reparations. We don't just scratch the surface; we dig into the roots of historical revisionism and dissect the systemic barriers that perpetuate inequality. Antowan’s eloquent narrative intertwines with mine to shine a light on the daily trials faced by black communities in the United States. The church's dual role, both as a historical oppressor and a current vehicle for social justice, is dissected, revealing a tapestry of Christian nationalism that has seeped into political arenas.
Our journey concludes with a forward gaze at America's future amidst global political shifts and a reflection on the stagnated progress since the days of Martin Luther King Jr. The potency of our exchange lies in the blend of solemn contemplation and sparks of humor, as we toy with the notion of escape to extraterrestrial lands. Yet, the commitment to foster understanding through dialogue remains steadfast. As listeners, you're invited to absorb these narratives and join us in grappling with the pressing racial disparities that mark our nation's present.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Let's have it, alright, man. So here we are. This is, this is us guys. I'm I'm Raul Brush, host of Frame of Reference. And then, if you don't know the backstory, after several years of doing Frame of Reference, we talked with this young gentleman across the screen from me and told him about this wacky idea that I had. That you know, wouldn't it be nice to have a kind of an offshoot Frame of Reference coming together was the working title of it, and my concept has been, and continues to be, just talking about racial issues with two people that ought to know, ought to know what those racial issues look like. From the primary players. Well, I mean, there's all I won't say primary, but some of the big key players in the whole racial divide and racial process of trying to heal. That would be me, regular old white guy, and you, sir, what's your name, sir?
Speaker 2:My name is Antoine Hallman senior.
Speaker 1:And what is your background coming to this fine show idea that I came up with? Because I'm you, know me, so you know, of course I'm a senior pastor of an outreach ministry.
Speaker 2:We are a, you know, faith works ministry. We're a Christian, non-denominational Bible teaching church. We simply believe that the written word of God is true. We believe in the eternal Godhead of God, the Father, the Son and God, the Holy Spirit, and we do believe and know that Jesus Christ is Lord. I am a black male, or some people may say African American male, and that see, in the course, in the walk that the Lord has us on, we do outreach ministry, meaning that we are outside. We are those shepherds that smell like sheep. We see firsthand social, racial, economic injustices and how they play out in real time. So that just enables us to really speak to a lot of things because we experienced them firsthand.
Speaker 1:And and that ministry. I just want to. You know, you and I have gotten to know each other over the months or whatnot, and I was impressed We'd just come through the holiday season. So we're recording this in mid January and we've just come out of the holiday season and you personally folks, I want you to know, this guy personally has had some really really trying or deals over the holidays.
Speaker 1:You know, whereas you and I and others are probably worrying about I hope I don't eat too much turkey, and it's really stressful because I got to still get presents for the kids and I don't have enough for mom. You know not to make those things right, but I'm just trying to think about, you know, the stuff that is normally, normally on people's minds. And you know one of my great concerns will I eat too many Christmas snacks and candies? Because, that is, I'm fighting with weight gain. You know, constantly as a 63 year old guy, right, and this guy, this guy has been fighting with personal ailments, not only for himself but for his wife, who's been going through some terrible trials as well. And yet, and yet, and yet, in spite of all that, why don't you tell people a little bit about what FaithWorks Ministries has been doing during the holiday season since Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2:Well, of course we've, in the Thanksgiving and Christmas, we've had, excuse me, both of our annual Christmas meals. Both of them were our fifth annual, our fifth annual free community Thanksgiving meal, our fifth annual free community Christmas meal. For the Thanksgiving meal, we served over 930 meals. For the Thanksgiving meal, seven souls saved in the process. And then the Christmas meal, we served 870 meals, 12 souls saved.
Speaker 2:And so just in the midst of that, you know, of course, my wife was diagnosed with what they're calling trigeminal neuralgia, where it's like they say simply that the blood vessel just starts to rest on the nerve in the jaw area, which it just creates a lot of pain. And so, of course, you know, being in urgent cares and ERs, she was admitted to the hospital twice because of this pain, and then the second time it wasn't only the pain but there was also a reaction to the medications that they had given her, where one medication was lowering her sodium so low that it could have caused brain swelling. And it was just my wife was not my wife for a short period of time because of these medications. So, but we just praise God that he had put the right doctors in front of her and these things were figured out, so, but now here we are.
Speaker 1:And you suffer from an ongoing issue. Do you, are you comfortable sharing that with your pain management things that you have going on?
Speaker 2:Well, I broke my neck in 2008. And then I had a second neck surgery in 2022. And, of course, I suffer from a. Well, I don't like that. There's symptoms of nerve damage in my body, and so that's just. You know, of course, it's a every day you wake up, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same. There's pain, but I praise God through the pain. You know, of course, the doctors. They told me there's really nothing else they could do other than know these various treatments, and you know, like the steroid injections, now I have moved on to a lidocaine treatment, which is hit or miss, and so now they're going to try another pharmaceutical treatment yeah, try because it's like I can't be bogged down with pain meds.
Speaker 2:So it because, again, for what we do and what I do, I'm a real estate agent as well, so it's like I have to get up and move and get to earn a living. Yeah, yeah, so. But yeah, coming up, they're going to try to infuse the lidocaine with a catamane to see how that my body reacts to that, and but otherwise I'm just going to walk in the favor of the Lord and here we go, preaching and teaching the Word of God, and his grace is sufficient for me.
Speaker 1:So I want to point that out case. You know, our, our attention span sometimes is people's a little bit lacking. I'll say I know mine is, so I have some timers disease. So sometimes I remember, sometimes I don't, but the reality is he just said my brother across the screen just said he broke his neck. Okay, say no more. And I just I'm pointing that out.
Speaker 1:Not I know you're the last person in the world, antoine, that wants to kind of have anything pointed out about you, because you're not about you. You're about trying to reach the word and make sure that people understand what the gospel and what the person of Jesus Christ means to you, what he's done for you. But I do say it because our topic today, folks, if you were wondering if we'd ever get to it, is the trials and tribulations of black people in this country, people of color. But I think you know black people have a unique perspective by virtue of their history here in this country. But I use this all as a framework, I think a frame of reference Notice how I worked that title frame of reference, for we're not just talking about the trials and tribulations of black men, but this whole background is the trials and tribulations of humanity. I mean there are things that get thrown into our lives on a daily, sometimes an hourly basis that you didn't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love people that say I don't like surprises. Today is a surprise, dude. You know, I can have some sort of anticipation, I have a meeting at nine and I'm going to go out to lunch and blah, blah, blah. But you don't know, every day is a surprise. So the human experience is such that you had human trials, people trials, antoine, how do those people trials look different from the lens of being, or do they? Do they look different at all? Do you think from the lens of being a black person in America versus? I mean, I try to think about my own. My wife suffers from ailments too, but is there a difference? Do you think in the care, the perspective, the treatment sounds like you got good treatment, so praise God for that.
Speaker 2:But I don't know. Well, you know, of course, institutionally, of course, there is a notable bias in institutions, whether it's the medical field, the judicial system, the corporate America, employment rails. There's going to be these discrepancies. There's going to be, there is, they exist. And of course, the thing is, you know, even though we have access to various, the Constitution says you know we, you know we have the same rights, but you know, those rights are continuously being prevented via different types of legislation.
Speaker 2:But also there's the perception, or the myth that you know, like, say, in the medical field, the myth is that black people can tolerate more pain than white people. And but also just my own experience, yes, when I told a certain doctor that, hey, after years of coming like from 2015 to 2022, I told him that, hey, man, I you're, you know he, I was, I was constantly complaining of this pain and he just would continuously dismiss it. Oh, don't let the pain drive you, you drive the pain. And then, of course, when I flat out told him, hey, you're not helping me, he wrote a really nasty referral to the big hospital in Madison and that was the last I seen of him. And I didn't even know of this nasty referral until I went through the online chart to see what he wrote, and I believe that how what he wrote will dictate how any treatment I receive going forward will be handled, and the thing is in the course. That's just one of those things. And of course, I've strongly believed that. You know, with this particular doctor, if I was a white person, he would have done more.
Speaker 2:I believe that and of course I and again, I do thank God that, yes, despite the nasty words and all those other things, he did put me in the hands of some people that actually listen and care. So I am under the care of a space where they ran all day. I believe that they've done all their due diligence. And then, now that they tell me hey, you know, this is a nerve issue, this is going to be ongoing, there's nothing more we could do, and so now we're beginning these different, various treatments. But yeah, just overall, the black experience in America is definitely going to be different than the white experience. I mean, it's almost like you really can't compare the two. You know, you just can't know. And so that's where it is.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe I'm well, I know I'm a parent, so that's a given, but I had never heard that I can recall at least that there is a stigma of black people can take more pain than white people. I mean, if that, I think most people can take more pain than I can, but you know, that's just relative to an assessment of my own capabilities, do you? I mean, where does that come from? That just strikes me as weird.
Speaker 2:It comes back. It goes all the way back to the fifties, when black people were going to various doctors and the doctors would say something like oh, this is just from the history of multiple people and multiple black people, in multiple settings, have said the same thing. Older black people have said you know, this is what I was told when I went to the doctor back then is like, oh, because you endured so much pain and you can endure heat, you can endure pain. So it's like when situations arise, they're less likely to prescribe a pain, they're less likely to do a, to really expand all avenues on you, because they say, oh, you're, you're, you're, you're paying. Tolerance is high, so we probably don't feel we need to do that Now. This is people that were seeking treatment back even late, you know, early as well, 1958 and things like that. You know, and so, and that's where that stigma comes from.
Speaker 1:So is this a throwback? And I, the 800 pound gorilla in the room, is this a throwback to slavery? That you know your people got whipped and you know we got pictures of people with welts on their back that look horrible. So this is a throwback to what you know. I mean, come on, you guys don't think that's the stigma, yep, and which is not.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to laugh, but that that is just so ridiculous and it's like, oh yeah, Okay, so we inflicted this pain, tolerance capability by? Is this another thing? Like to Santas's Boy, we did a good thing for you by you know, giving you you know skills as you know, whatever, the same you think that's mentality is. Is part of this, I wonder.
Speaker 2:Because, I mean, it's like you got to understand, like the, you know the slave that was a beaten. He was beaten in front of his family as children and then, of course, if he said or done anything more he would have been killed. So he had to just take what was done and get back to work. And so then of course it's like wow, oh, my goodness, they ended in a course. I guess that's where this thing was born. And, like I say, this stigma goes back to the fifties. Far as my personal knowledge of personal stories or stories, personal stories from older black people, this is what the doctor would say to them All y'all can take, y'all could tolerate more pain. So there's no need for me to really do this. And and of course we know that things that have history is in a continuous repetitious cycle, because even though today that's something like that may not be, but if you say it, it'll be acted out in a sense. Sure, and that's where you know the institution. They have their ways when it comes to different groups of people.
Speaker 1:What in it? It strikes me as so like ridiculously shallow. I'll say that's the only phrase I can think of. But to say it's a matter of tolerance, it's not a matter of tolerance of pain. So the stakes that are at at, at our that are at stake, the circumstances that are at stake, if I don't tolerate the pain. So I think of that as the people that you know, we have a thing in theater the show must go on right, so people can say, well, you, the theater people, can tolerate more physical stuff because, look, they get up and they do this stuff in spite of that, and it's just.
Speaker 1:But we know what's at stake. Now, you know that's just what's at stake, for the you don't have an understanding of the show can't go on if you're not there. But you're talking about stakes where you know say, anymore, let out any of the. You know shrieks or the you, son of a, stop beating me or whatever, and the results of that are going to be we're going to kill your wife too and we're going to kill your kids too. The stakes on that, of course you're going to tolerate the pain. I mean that's just stupid to not think you wouldn't.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't mean, you have more tolerance though right For her class.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to that discrepancy in that medical field or the medical institution, you know, you even look at the current data points, you know where it's just this has been going on for years that more black women die, they die from trying to give birth or they have stillborn children, than white women.
Speaker 1:And we've talked about. So here we are talking about a situation which is, by no other terms, is atrocious. It's just not acceptable. If it was, you know, any white person, they would have gotten rid of that doctor that you got rid of probably a long time ago. Because you're not listening to me, I've got pain. I want the pain rectified. I want it, you know, alleviated. But you know you put up with it. You tolerated it. You know let's use the stupid terminology you tolerated longer than I think most white people would. You know it, just most people would. Right, so that, to me, is an indicator of how insidious this thing is.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, I tolerated it, yes, and in the know why? Because in the back of my head that, because we know that people in various professions, they talk and speak. And the thing is, even after years of enduring that pain with that doctor, he still did what I was afraid he would do.
Speaker 1:So you said something and he punished you for it as a patient.
Speaker 2:I wrote some stuff in my file that has made it even hard for me to get life insurance or the adequate life insurance that I desire I'm able to. I have life insurance I praise God, but you know I was trying to increase it and what he wrote in my file has made it so where it's getting is very hard for me to increase my life insurance.
Speaker 1:Are you able to share like specifics of what he said, just to give a frame of reference.
Speaker 2:Remember there's no. I've told my testimony in numerous times that I know. I know back in the early 2000s I drank a lot, you know, and I in the course, when I first went to this doctor after I broke my neck, I moved from Madison to Baraboo in 2011. So in 2012, I started seeing this doctor and, of course, you give your doctor the whole history. Yes, I smoked marijuana, I drank, and this is what I told him at my initial. That's true.
Speaker 2:So that was initial evidence, okay, and of course, like in the thing is, you know coming from, where I was coming from, is like I want to know every health benefit available to me. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to help you, help me in a sense. I'm going to tell you everything and of course you know series of tests. I praise God that I'm other than this nerve pain. I am healthy. You know I do have type 2 diabetes, but that is controlled. I don't take insulin anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah so you just, you just open it, you're being honest. Your primary care physician hey, this is what I used to do back in 2008, 2009, 2010. Now here it is no 2011. I'm in a new town, I'm in 2012. For the first time in my life, I have a primary care physician, and so you're just giving him your life story and things like that. But, and then, of course, this particular doctor. He was like, hey, you know, I'm not, I don't prescribe pain, is, or whatever. I'm like, hey, that's fine, just help me, you know, just help me. And so, but again, as time goes on, again I'm just like, hey, man, I just don't feel like you've done anything. I might be talking to a guy sitting on a park bench, you know, far as I'm concerned, and it's just like I'm just like yeah, and then again.
Speaker 2:after I told him that, he hastily wrote me a referral to the big hospital in Madison. Then of course that is where some real help began. But it was just a raised brow. Then of course you could tell people treat you how they talk about you. You could tell that there was something that was not just vibing at first, but then, when they started to really do the MRIs and the CT scans on my neck and back and all these things, they saw the issues and that's why they felt the need to go back into my neck. They found some things that were going on in my neck. There was a neurology growing on my spinal cord. The doctor, he went in and took part of it out, but the other part he had to leave in because he was too close to your spinal cord. I can't get it. That thing is still there, and thus here we are.
Speaker 1:But the concern, the compassion, the desire to really, I think of it as empathy. It's one thing to be sympathetic to a person, it's another to have true empathy for what it's like to walk in their shoes and say I want to help you, because helping you is a thing that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I felt that over time, that the current doctor and a surgeon, I believe they got to know me as the person. No, they got to know the person. I think that's where some walls were torn down. That's why I feel very comfortable. Even though I now live in Green Bay, I will still travel to Madison for my health care treatment.
Speaker 1:That makes me think of something too, because something we talked about early on, that when I think we started this whole thing with a conversation about what, was it something to the matter of? If I ask a black person as a white person, if I asked them to help me understand the black experience, if I'm remembering right, antoine, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you said something about don't ask the question unless you're willing to listen, just listen. Then we've talked about too, how the cry of a black woman in America to talk about the treatment, the difference, the disparities, that has gotten increasingly difficult for people to want to listen to Because it's like, ah, it's a sampled sample. You guys are always complaining about blah, blah, blah, blah. That strikes me again as a lack of emotional intelligence, if you will, among white folks. To just think about what would you feel? I'll ask any white woman that's listening or any white man that's listening how would you feel if there was this perception that you can endure pain better than some other race of people because you've built up a tolerance to that whole thing? I mean, that's just ridiculous, disrespectful, incredulous that a scientific medical community would even operate on that kind of premise. So when I think about the cry of black men and the cry of black women, I have to accept that I have no idea what that's like Absolutely none and it is ridiculous. It's offensive. It's something I should be concerned about. Just as a human being, I get tired of hearing the white experience which cries about.
Speaker 1:You hear about this. Black people have so many hard things and, oh my gosh, you know when are we going to? I never owned any ciphers. My family never owned any ciphers. How do I have to endure this? I'm like you know, guys, just stop and think for a second. This group of people, black people, had to experience this. This is part of their history. Why can't you just stop and say that was awful, that was absolutely awful. And I didn't actively myself participate. But how about if I'm participating in the continuation of the process Because I'm allowing, I'm permitting, I'm turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to these experiences and not saying nobody should experience that, nobody should have gone through what the black people in this country went through? Nobody. And I need to make sure that not only that I am not racist, but that I am anti-racist, so that it doesn't happen again. And yet here we are 2024 America and we are continuing to perpetuate the illness, the sickness of racism, because we don't want to deal with it. Here it is.
Speaker 2:And that's why you see this attack on history right now, see the big attack on history and, of course and then this is the biggest fear tactic is oh, you're making our children feel bad, you're making our children feel bad. No, your children want to know the history. Your children want to have a better understanding. It's the parents and the grandparents and the great-grands that want to dismiss this thing.
Speaker 2:Of course, as the kids, as generations change and I don't know what generation we are in now, whatever it is, but anyway, just people want to know X, y, g, t, l, r, s, but yet it's like the parents and grand and greats are speaking on behalf of the children saying, hey, this thing, this is not true, this is whitewash and actually, like you see, in Florida, oh, they benefited from slavery, oh, they taught, they were learned, they were taught skills and this. But, however, even if that was the case, where they say, oh, we taught you skills, you took away the land that we can apply those skills to, to build our own wealth. Because, remember, like it wasn't just like in the 30s, the 20s, what the 30s, 40s, 50s, all the way through, you know, the big migrations from the South. It wasn't not just for, you know, black people seeking opportunities. But understand, they were being lynched, they were being killed, Black people were being, their land was just being taken from them, just being taken. You know, if you're a flat out, you know if you don't move, we're going to kill you. So they had to abandon the land and the land was just simply taken.
Speaker 2:And of course, now you know of course there's all kind of you know a lot of different amendments were added to the Constitution and all those different things. But now you know you have a just the minority, just continuously circumventing the Constitution via state laws and just certain behaviors. You know, and what burns my toast right now is there's this I can't remember the name of the law group, but anyway they're part of some kind of I think it's called the Federalist, the conservative society or the Federalist society or their two different things, but they're constantly before the Supreme Court trying to take away any kind of a opportunity, giving processes for minorities. Of course we learned that. What happened with the affirmative action via colleges, right, where you can't base admittance on race anymore? Then of course some colleges in tune said, okay, well, we're not doing legacy admittances anymore.
Speaker 2:Then of course, now that's a big blow up. But also there's something so simple as a group of black women. Well to do? Black women have formed an organization to bring up other black women. Do you know that now the Supreme Court has ruled in favor that this is illegal Because it's racist for black women to lift up other black women? That's just insane. But now again, it's why?
Speaker 1:can't we're free. Why don't we just get to raise up whoever we want to?
Speaker 2:I don't understand Well because, again, white people have been doing it since then, raising up other white people. Because, look at the stats now even there's a higher percentage of unemployed blacks versus unemployed whites.
Speaker 1:Me Daughters of the American Revolution do not have African-American women as part of their organization. Look at the rosters. So how is that different? Are they illegal now?
Speaker 2:Well, look at what happened to the President of Harvard recently. Yeah, look at what happened to her. They took an anti-Semitism argument and made it into something totally different, and then, of course, the college asked for her resignation. Well, she was forced to resign, right, and again, that attack on that woman is just and ambitious.
Speaker 2:It's a perpetual cycle of what we see in this country and, of course, people want to keep people beneath them and that's where we're going to have all these different discrepancies. We talked about this before where these impoverished communities they have no it's almost. They're going to continue this cycle, thus continuously fuel the fire of their conversations Saying see, look, they don't-, this is who they are, they're violent, they're this, they're that. They hang on to welfare just to milk it or whatever the case. But I don't know if you look at it from city to city and state to state that all these different laws and all these different kind of things are being pet the gerrymandering part of things says it by itself where no black communities don't really have a voice, it's like this perpetual cycle of it continuously exists And-.
Speaker 1:I keep thinking-.
Speaker 2:Like, if you look at certain cities in Chicago, certain areas in Chicago, bus routes don't run through those communities. Certain bus routes don't run through those communities like they do in other communities, or they run every hour or every 90 minutes. You know what I mean. And then it's like in some of the train stops in Chicago they just been shut down all together, so when the train is on the track coming through, it don't even stop at that stop anymore, it just goes to the next stop, Right. And so it's like those types of things that's what they are and that's what we are.
Speaker 2:And remember, going back to the 80s, a white person can have an ounce of cocaine and a person of color can have a couple of grams of crack. The white person would get off with a significantly more amount of illegal product versus the black person. And still here, we're still here. And the thing is, when we're talking about the cry of the black man and the black woman, it's just people are tired of hearing it. Because it's like you were saying people are saying oh, I'm tired of complaining, I'm tired of complaining, and it's like all we need you to do is listen. And then, after the listening part, it's like what can we do?
Speaker 2:And again it's like even with the what can we do part, I'm a firm believer in that there needs to be reparations in some form or another. I'm not a big proponent of just giving a bunch of black people a bunch of money, because if they don't know how to handle that money it'll be even worse off than it was. But there needs to be something. The 40 acres in a mule never saw it, my family never saw it, and it's just those types of things. Something needs to be done Because again, even with ally-ship, a lot of allies will walk up to you until you start talking a certain thing and it's just uncomfortable and it's like hey just I have too much to lose if I do that.
Speaker 1:I think of the parable of the rich man that approaches Jesus and says why, how do I follow you? How do I get to be more Christ-like? And go home and sell all that you have and then come back and join me, and the man was I don't know if I can do that. That's just too much. I got a lot of them to lose there and I think of it like when I talk about anti-racism. Let's just use the example of the Sanctus spouting off about black people who actually were trained with some valuable skills and trying to make it sound like that was a good thing and I think I talked about.
Speaker 1:There's a grain of truth in there that, yes, blacksmithing is a valuable skill. It was, especially at that time, all right, bought, bought. They didn't have a choice. Not only did they not have a choice, it was like you're going to be a blacksmith or I'm going to beat you. You're going to be a blacksmith because I need a blacksmith. It's all about me, it's not about you, it's about me and my needs. And let's think about another step of that is so we can teach them the useful skill of being blacksmith, but if they want to learn how to read.
Speaker 1:At that same time, if a black person wanted to read, if they were being taught to read, many lynchings folks, many beatings occurred because they wanted to read. So where are the white people? I want to know when that stuff happens, when the Santas or any politician stands up and says that kind of thing, are you willing to be the white person that says, uh, excuse me, but you're kind of missing some parts of this puzzle. And where are the? Where are the white people that stand up when there are people screaming at school meetings about critical race theory, which is not taught in the schools, or screaming about their kids feel bad about slavery, that are standing up and said, hey, you know what.
Speaker 1:All of us should feel bad. Feeling bad about slavery is not a bad thing. Guess what? It was a horrible, awful thing. I should feel bad about Gaza Strip right now. If I don't feel bad about what's going on there, what is wrong with me? I should feel bad about the Holocaust.
Speaker 1:I, if I think about those and I look at what happened, I should feel bad about that as a human being. I should feel bad that that happened to a human being and, to this, many human beings, as it happened with slavery, under the circumstances that it happened with slavery. If you don't feel bad about that, mr White person, mr Black you know Black, not Black person, mr, you know, ms White, mother, whoever, if you don't feel bad about that, that's your problem, because you should. And if you don't, where are the white people around you in your circle that are saying, hey, mildred, back off, teach your child?
Speaker 1:That is absolutely legitimate to feel bad about that, and we all share a responsibility, not for having had slaves, but we have a responsibility to look at how that mentality is still pervasive in our society and how it is continuing to perpetuate the divisionism, the polarization of Black people and white people. How is that still happening today? And let's feel bad about that so that we're going to say we can do something about it. Because I know in my marriage, the things that I feel bad about are the things that I change, and that's right, ladies and gentlemen, a husband can change. Because they feel bad about the things that they are doing to hurt the people that they love around them. Where are we guys, where are those folks that are standing up and challenging those things not to the people that agree with us in our circle, where it's safe, but going into a bar where there are a bunch of Trump lovers and saying you know, guys, let's have a discussion about this, because this is absolutely TOTIC.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, and just this is just my, through my lens, it's like I necessarily wouldn't want people to feel bad. I want you to have understanding. I need you to have understanding to the point where it does move you to act. You know, of course, slavery in the history of this country is very bad. It's a very bad thing. But now it's like you know what? Okay, because, again, because that's their argument oh, you're trying to make us feel bad, you're trying to make my child feel bad. It's like I don't want you or your child to feel bad. I want you to have a genuine understanding of how we get to this place right now.
Speaker 2:Going back to 1944 or something like that, you know even, because, like basically all black people, they were either sharecroppers or indentured servants, right, but even going back beyond that, you know, yes, they were all sharecroppers or indentured servants. And then, of course, the Homestead Act comes about where it's saying, hey, everybody's going to get a free piece of land except sharecroppers and indentured servants. And so since the, even when slavery was abolished, or emancipated, or abolished, whatever, you know, black people have been relecated to this economic depression where they're working these 12, 13, 14, 15 hour jobs for pathetically low wages and then again it's like we were just continuously underpaid. And again, these just understand where we got to, where we are in a course, or even like with the red line and all these different kind of things that have taken place over the time course of time, and how we get to the, how majority of people have gotten into these communities and got stuck there and in just even like, say, even back then, it's like you know black, you know white people rose up at the fact that black people want to go to college, and that was a thing you know, and it's just like.
Speaker 2:It's like I don't want you to necessarily feel bad. I want you to truly have a true, real, genuine understanding of the history and how the history has brought us to this place. And now not that you hadn't like and once you get that grasp of the history and the understanding, are you really ready to stand by my side and fight this thing out? Because again, like I said, when it comes to certain allyship you know is, hey, they're with you to a certain point and then they can just return to the comfortable, the comforts of their whiteness, you know, and it's just always like that's where I am.
Speaker 2:I don't want you to feel bad, necessarily. I just want you to have an understanding in the empathy piece. And then again, of course, you know again, I know I talked to you about this online and offline about how I blame, I personally just hold the church accountable for a lot of this. You know, course, and even, and now, the church, you know, some churches I should say are perpetuating this, the history again. Yeah, you know there, when, when you hear of a church, listen, when you hear of a church that has formed their group of militia men Saying that, oh, we're gonna defend our families and the gospel, yeah, and it just goes back to, you know, like when you hear these people would talk out loud about civil war, and the thing is, this thing is happening in the church.
Speaker 1:So you day in America was like land of the free because Just, they're calling it old Christian nationalism.
Speaker 2:It's like no, this is a white nationalism. You know and of course that there's a book that I have that I'm actually about to go into there's a gentleman named Tim Alberta. He wrote this book called the kingdom, the power and the glory.
Speaker 1:I just saw that I that's like a bestseller and you can't. The library has copies of what you can't get one because of the back Log on. People want reserving, it is so big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like when I saw it and I heard the gentleman speak, I had to get it because, again, he's, he comes from that background where his dad was a pastor. Yeah, then when he went home to bury his pastor and he had a different ideology than the people in the church and they shunned him. And so it's because this is a second book and Because his first book is a American carnage. I have not heard of that one. But when I saw his interview and I saw what he was speaking about, I had to get the book because, again, this is what we're facing now.
Speaker 2:You know, people know, like, say, evangelicals are taking a political topic and and then trying to make it into a good versus evil thing. Right, right, you know, of course, when we talk about like, say, let's just use abortion as an example, you know, of course, the really the only scripture I've seen in the Bible when it says in this day, either choose life or to choose death. I hope that you that's what most of choose life or choose death. I hope you choose life. And so when people start to talk about abortion, that's one of the scriptures they throw out and and the thing is in the course. I just in my studies, I really have not. You course you can take a scripture and make it fit your argument. Right, right, right, right. You can do that all day long and however it just. I just Something specifically, of course. They say, oh, abortion is murder. It's just again of course if it's it there. So I don't want but I'm using that as an example to simply say people will take a political topic and then make it a Good versus evil topic. Right, and so then, like you say, if you take that topic and say, okay, this is good versus evil and that, so everything that other group says Is evil.
Speaker 2:So when you're talking about no voting rights, voting rights, that's evil. You know this thing. You know economic and economic, social, racial injustice, that's evil. And so that's where we are right now in the avenge evangelical church. They're being played. They're being played, and this is what I said, this before.
Speaker 2:I just poor white people don't really get the fact that they're in the same boat as we are. The poor white people are in the same boat as black people. You're being used as a pawn, you're being lied to on a daily basis and the sad part is, again, white people, a lot of poor white people are voting against their own best interests To get based on what they have chosen to believe Right, and and and so. But just with everything that we were talking about, just simply put, you know, being black in America, it, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's a double-edged sword.
Speaker 2:Because in the, in the argument I was talking with a person Similar alone the lines of this thing, and then, of course, you know, this person said to me Well, uh, least you're not in Africa, least you're not in Haiti, least you're not in this. Like, wow, wow, see how, see how that was dismissed. It's like least you're not there, least you're not here. There's like, yeah, because I'm not here or there, that does that mean I have to tolerate what is being happened to me now? Yes, it does.
Speaker 2:It means that, exactly that, that, exactly that but you see how that was uh, easily, you know, the conversation Was easily dismissed. And, of course, yes, we are of, you know, as uh, african Americans or black Americans in this country. Yes, we are afforded, uh, uh, we're afforded every constitutional right as the white person, allegedly, but we know that there are institutional behaviors that will continuously Block and trap and put ceilings on people. You know, of course, it's just historic that no Black men, black women, are going to make significantly less than white men, white women.
Speaker 2:These things are just, these are documented, these are data points. These are things that are just true in our current society and when Living in America, yes, I can say I thank god for where he has me Right now, today, you know I thank god for, but at the same time, it's like, just because I'm thankful for where I am, and, yes, uh, like the gentleman told me, like, well, at least you're not in african or Haiti or somewhere. Yeah, I guess I could thank god that I'm not there. But what about those people there? You know, most of them are still under british rule or some kind of, you know, colonistic rule, uh, under the thumb of something that they're. They're, they're still under the rule, but they're not being provided for by the people. That's ruling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the derivatives of it so exists the haves and the have nots, the structure of how the, the real power is, operates. That's all still Habs and have nots, and we're the everybody's in the same boat.
Speaker 2:And that brings us to the united states with a minority rule. You know, of course I, we watch in africa how the wealth of a country is continuously being bled out. The diamonds and gold and all the natural resources are being bled and taken out and Given to other countries for wealth. Just think if Africa could keep its own wealth. What would that look like? Oh, my goodness. And just if, if, if the Constitution was executed to its fullest extent, the right way, how much better would this country be right, you know.
Speaker 1:Look at the bricks alliance, right, you know. I mean, here we have a group of you know nations that you know you've got China and you know Russia and South Africa, all part of the bricks alliance, which is really really interesting and really really indicative of how we're all in this boat together. Those of us that are in the have not range, that just don't have the, the capabilities of the. You know, the 1% of our society that is the most wealthy, that have the most wealth, have the majority of the wealth in this country and you, you look at that and think, okay, so now in another, in the other half of the world, there are people, countries like South Africa, that are aligning themselves with totalitarian regimes and they think that that's better, somehow, than to be aligned with the United States of America and its allies. What is that saying about how the rest of the, the world, views us? And if I can, I want to go back to the. I'm making white people feel bad. I'm not all, and I want to make sure, and I understand feeling bad. I've understand guilt.
Speaker 1:I grew up Catholic. Okay, we were like okay, well, I'll call Amtrak and book a guilt trip then, because I obviously I miss church on Sunday or whatever, right, I mean, we know guilt. What I think is important about feeling bad is not that I want you to feel bad. What I think is important about feeling bad is feeling bad is a tremendous motivator. It's a tremendous way of Getting us to the point where we're energized to do something. And I'll use examples like this that if you feel bad about how much you Way, how overweight you are, if you feel bad about your health, if you feel bad about those things, you do something about it Because you're motivated to do something. So if we can feel bad, if we can just find the mechanisms, the Mentalities that are necessary for us to be motivated to do something, to understand that's that's, to me, is the key.
Speaker 1:May Martin Luther King what did he say? Something the thing that he feared the most was white, moderate America, because that was going to be the greatest impediment overall to there being really substantial a contextual and sustainable change in America. He's been dead since 1968. Where are we today? Not only are we, you know, not further in the advance. Then, you know, we started to make strides for in the 60s, but now we're taking away that stuff, we're going backwards those things have been.
Speaker 2:You're right, voting rights and things like that. They're being taken away and they're being circumvented Via no state legislation. And but also, just, you made a great point about how you know how these other countries are aligning themselves towards certain type of governing. You know, like. You know, like the rushers, the China's, the South Africa's there, but they want to bar Korea, north Korea. Yes, they become they, they.
Speaker 2:And why do you think that is? You know, because their thought process is Actually the minority, just the way they think is in the minority. And just and again it's like here in America, we, if people, if we're not careful, we're going to fall right into that. But again, a lot of people don't understand what this author, this authoritarian regime, would look like, because again, it's like, like you said, that the have and have nots right and In regard, because when this thing, actually, if, if, lord willing, we never fall into that, but if it does, a Lot of poor white people going to realize it, that they are in the same boat as we are In our water, where, or even worse, are right, you are grief for the machine.
Speaker 2:So exactly, and that's where it is is kind of sad. People are voting against their own best interest because there is, has been, a narrative has been created that you're losing the country or that you are. You know, the Blood of the country is being poisoned, or whatever Stuff. They turn a sermon and whatever Know, whatever narratives and rhetoric they propaganda, they choose to believe they won't get it until they're actually in it. And when I like, I say, of course, like what is that? What did the John o Trump say? He says he's gonna build camps. So he's gonna build camps? Now, understand this. That's not gonna.
Speaker 2:You know, of course, if you're a conspiracy theorist, you know the building of these camps are not gonna be just for immigrants, they're gonna be for anyone that disagrees with the authoritarian. And thus you know you start to see that New world order things starts to try to happen, or that one world money Starts to happen. You're gonna start to see all these things Playing out, and it's like the Bible tells us that these things are gonna happen. Many will be deceived. They're gonna be rumors of wars. There's gonna be, you know, nation against nation, king against king is gonna rise up against each other.
Speaker 2:The Bible is telling us these things and so all you know, while we're walking this earth, I, I just my prayer is Evangelicals, christians, men and women of God, even unbelievers. I just pray that their hearts are changed to just just a human. Just give them a heart of humanity, because I know God. Actually, no God gave a gate. God gave over 700 plus commandments. Jesus came and narrowed it down to two love God and love people. And If we can just do those two things, it'll wipe out everything else, if we can truly love people. You know, love people as you love yourself, right? You know, of course, yes, you want your family to be well, secure and safe and happy and provided for. And just think if you can love your Neighbor the same way, regardless of his color or his nationality, if you could do that same thing for your neighbor. Watch what happens in this country and even in this world.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:Was really a space, I would do it. That's my wife. On numerous occasions I'm like, babe, if, if we could live somewhere else, where do you want to be? I'm like, where do you where? Where we want to be, where would it be?
Speaker 1:Liberia, that was far formed on, or Maricana. Whatever we can, we can figure out, we'll make. We'll plant the flag somewhere, maybe in Mars, when Elon gets there, I don't know, but dude. We obviously what.
Speaker 2:Elon, when he do get the Mars, he gonna put his foot on the earth and be like no, y'all can't come. Hey there, we don't need your time here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're gonna need your kind here. Well, obviously we need to talk more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a, you know so we keep, we're gonna keep trying this. We're in the new year, right? We made a new year's resolution after the beginning of the year. We try to make this happen. You take, you have to take care of your wife. Yeah, you have to take care. You. Hopefully we can keep buying the time stick, because we just scratch the surface. I mean, every time we do this it's just like, oh my god, there's so much more to talk about.
Speaker 2:So it's a more so of our schedules. You know, yeah, the interstate agent. You know, of course, uh, you know, in it taking the health issues out. You know, just our schedules is what.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:When we get those more aligned, we'll see the continuity and the consistency and just really this thing is gonna Really take off you got a ministry to maintain as well.
Speaker 1:I would get it. So what folks? My name is Raul the brush. This is a fine young man across the screen. For me is Antoine Hall, Missy you and together we are a frame of reference coming together, so I hope you've enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Antoine Did you just tolerate it.
Speaker 2:It's a, it's a great start, so I believe that we should probably continue it next week. Just what it is to be black in America. And again, it's not a rant, it's not a complaint, but it's a. These are just facts. Callity brink, my own experience in this like, what can we do? You know, of course we always want to try to offer, even if our, if it's our half-baked solution. We got to offer it right.
Speaker 1:Think about it. I love this format is we don't have to just do it in the sound bite. Although you know, somebody probably turn it into a sound bite, make it sound like idiots. But you know, here's a sound bite for you. I'm an idiot already, you don't have to make me sound like one. Okay, there is. There's your sound bite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's just continue this same conversation next week. If we could, that'd be great, amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you folks, thanks for listening to frame of reference coming together. Hopefully tune in again sometime and, mostly, think about what we've been talking about and try to apply it. The situation's try, try to look for what we're talking about so you can verify for yourself. Is this or is this not part of our America today? And if it is, let's not only feel bad about it but let's discipline ourselves to do something about it. Right, take care, man. Hey, give my best.
Speaker 2:Will.