When the echoes of our past threaten to silence our future, where do we turn for the volume knob? Join me as we unravel the threads of resilience with James and Bear, a couple whose narrative weaves a compelling tapestry of truth and transformation. Our exchange ventures through the poignant power of music, love's unexpected cadences, and the fortitude carved from childhood's harsh landscapes. A reflection on my own journey through the Iran-Iraq war lays bare the tenacity required to reclaim one's story from the shadows of trauma.
Amid the cacophony of today's societal discourse, where do we find the melody of authenticity? In conversation with James, a philosopher and bestselling author, and his partner Bear, we confront the specter of toxic masculinity and the generational chasms that challenge our collective integrity. From the tumultuous waves of personal redemption to the tranquil shores of responsible leadership, our guests share their insights on rewriting the script of one's life. We dissect the critical departures from societal values and the pressing need to redefine masculinity beyond its warped modern iterations, advocating for a return to humility and accountability.
As we navigate the complex symphony of leadership and personal growth, the contributions of both James and Bear resonate with profound clarity. Their partnership underscores the significance of a supportive foundation, a theme echoed in James's latest literary endeavor, "The Business of Redemption." Their stories serve not merely as a beacon for those adrift in the stormy seas of change but as a testament to the transformative power of embracing one's role at the helm. So, lend an ear and perhaps find the harmony in your own narrative, guided by the experiences and wisdom shared within these conversations.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
When the echoes of our past threaten to silence our future, where do we turn for the volume knob? Join me as we unravel the threads of resilience with James and Bear, a couple whose narrative weaves a compelling tapestry of truth and transformation. Our exchange ventures through the poignant power of music, love's unexpected cadences, and the fortitude carved from childhood's harsh landscapes. A reflection on my own journey through the Iran-Iraq war lays bare the tenacity required to reclaim one's story from the shadows of trauma.
Amid the cacophony of today's societal discourse, where do we find the melody of authenticity? In conversation with James, a philosopher and bestselling author, and his partner Bear, we confront the specter of toxic masculinity and the generational chasms that challenge our collective integrity. From the tumultuous waves of personal redemption to the tranquil shores of responsible leadership, our guests share their insights on rewriting the script of one's life. We dissect the critical departures from societal values and the pressing need to redefine masculinity beyond its warped modern iterations, advocating for a return to humility and accountability.
As we navigate the complex symphony of leadership and personal growth, the contributions of both James and Bear resonate with profound clarity. Their partnership underscores the significance of a supportive foundation, a theme echoed in James's latest literary endeavor, "The Business of Redemption." Their stories serve not merely as a beacon for those adrift in the stormy seas of change but as a testament to the transformative power of embracing one's role at the helm. So, lend an ear and perhaps find the harmony in your own narrative, guided by the experiences and wisdom shared within these conversations.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world. In-depth interviews to help you expand and inform your frame of reference. Now here's your host, raoul Labrèche.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone to another episode of Frame of Reference Profiles in Leadership. And I am hyped up, not because of just the guests that I have, that would be enough but I've actually been drinking green tea Japanese green tea all morning, long for a virus that I've been fighting, and I'm so amped up right now on green tea that you could bring on I think a sumo wrestler right now and I would say bring it, just bring it Okay. So I think a sumo wrestler right now and I would say bring it, just bring it Okay. So I think we're going to have fun.
Speaker 2:My guests today are a power couple. If ever there was a power couple, I have to tell you, james, I looked at you guys' picture. You know the headshots that they send. I looked at those and thought, oh wow, I am in for trouble here Because these people do. These are people that know how to get what they need to get out of life and we're going to have a fun time going there. But, james, I made a New Year's resolution this year when I started doing the show again. I'm not introducing my guests anymore. I'm letting my guests introduce themselves because you know you better than I know. You Bear knows her bear better than I know you.
Speaker 3:So why should I waste a bunch of time reading this stuff off of a piece of paper when I can have you just hit it with what is the James Arthur Ray story.
Speaker 3:Well, if you're looking for an introduction, I'll abbreviate it. The James Arthur Ray story is kind of an epic story which would take some time, but you know, I think what I'm really committed to is truth and principles and values and morality, and I think those are very necessary in today's world. It's unfortunate that I feel like we've gotten so far away from those type of things and we need to come back to center and so that's. You know, bershba and I both are totally committed and she can speak for herself to helping people come back to center call that God, call that principle, whatever you want to label it and to be independent thinkers whatever you want to label it and to be independent thinkers. We're really committed to helping you become a critical thinker, an independent thinker, and to be able to think for yourself beyond the controlling narrative. So hopefully that makes sense to you and that's kind of me in a nutshell.
Speaker 2:It totally does, and I was interested too. One of the things it does say in your intro is that you're a philosopher and a consultant. We're going to get along fine, because I totally resonate with the idea of we need more people that are willing to think. Just think. I'm not asking people to do anything other than take a moment, step back, reflect on what's just been said and then process it. And processing it means more than just saying well, he said it, so it's got to be true. You know, I've read it on the web thing there and it's true. We have to be able to go deeper than that, right? So, bear, how about you?
Speaker 2:I've read some fascinating things about you in your brief little biography and I thought it is just a miracle that you are here today. I have to say that it truly is. It is Well, both of you, honestly. But you know, bear, I looked at your background just as a child and I think, oh, my Lord, this is just. I'm so blessed to have someone like you come on the show and talk about your experiences. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you for having me. Since you put it that way, I will say I was a person, I, I. How would I sum it up? I say I am an example of possibility for someone who's completely broken.
Speaker 3:To become whole.
Speaker 4:To become whole.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:To become whole, to become newborn, whatever label you want to put on it, but to be able to start all over, no matter the traumas that you've endured throughout your life.
Speaker 3:And I can attest to that. Yeah For her, on her sake.
Speaker 2:Yes it's true. It's true, well, and it's a difficult thing in a country like I think, ours, where we are so conditioned to having virtually anything. You know, I mean, even our poorest people are rich by world, global standards in many cases, but the brokenness that occurs in our country is no less, I don't think, any less significant or less profound. But you say exactly the right thing we can overcome, we can choose to go go onto a different path. You made those choices and it's you've been blessed by them, right? So?
Speaker 2:so well, let's, we can get back to that. All of that is, you know, going to be an interesting journey in and of itself, right, but I warned you ahead of time, we do a little bit of my favorite things. If I had the money, I would pay the BMI and ASCAP licensing fees necessary to have Julie Andrews sing right now, so we could set the mood in a really appropriate way. I don't have that, so I can hum it a little bit for you. It's about the best I can do. But so, favorite things this is a very Roshaktian thing. I will throw out something.
Speaker 2:Just whatever comes to your mind initially is what you go with. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If it's right, it's right. If you need to re-clarify, re-clarify, but don't let it be oh, oh, ah, oh, because then you will never get anywhere. So I've had guests do that and it's just like just take a breath, it's okay. I'm just asking your favorite color. It's not the, you know anyways, here we go. So a favorite historical personality? Ooh, who are you asking you? Either one, whoever wants to go first? Jeopardy, you can hit the bell. Ding.
Speaker 3:So I, I would, I would have to go with Socrates, oh, Socrates. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm a big admirer of Socrates. Oh, socrates. Yeah, I'm a big admirer of Socrates. I mean, I could easily say, plato too, aristotle not as much.
Speaker 2:See, I had to read Aristotle as a graduate student, so I'm versed in him, although I've honestly forgotten probably forcefully forgot most of what he wrote. But what is it about the Socratic method? Is that what you enjoy?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, and I get chastised frequently by my lovely wife for my Socratic method. She constantly. We have a ritual, raul, every morning, we have coffee together and it's sacred. We don't do anything besides, have coffee and conversation every single morning and we get into these deep topics about life and I will always ask her questions and she's like well, just tell me. I'm like no, because if you tell me, then you own it, it's yours. If I tell you you can forget it, then you own it, it's yours. If I tell you you can forget it or blow it off and um, but it's fun.
Speaker 3:I really, I really do enjoy helping to individuals ferret out their own truth and that's part of that independent thinking that we talked about earlier. And I also really have a lot of admiration for Socrates, because he was a rebel. He really went against the grain, he went against the common social political structure, which I can relate to as well, and he paid the price for it. But they, they, they almost let him off the hook. If you know the story. They were going to let him go and and he, he said something snide in court, couldn't keep it to himself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was and and um. So they gave him the hemlock and he didn't fight. He just drank it, he just took it and he wasn't afraid of the hereafter. So there's a lot more about Socrates, but I'm a big admirer of him.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not a marriage relationship counselor, but I would posit that your Socratic method is part of the reason you have a grizzly bear next to you, that your Socratic method is part of the reason you have a grizzly bear next to you, because I don't think, if you want to get rid of that grizzly bear quality in bear, I think maybe you might want to consider a different methodology for the morning at least Bear how about you? Who's your favorite historical personality?
Speaker 4:Ooh, historical personality. I would have to say right now, for the moment I'm reading about him, is King David.
Speaker 2:Interesting, interesting yeah.
Speaker 4:I find him fascinating. It's the first time I'm actually reading the story too. Okay, so it's his. What do you call it? Yeah, his belief and his faith, his courage is what resonates with me. I find it fascinating.
Speaker 3:Well, and again we have to say, or I have to say, that his wife was Bathsheba and Beersheba I forgot. Beersheba is a derivation. I did make that connection myself.
Speaker 2:I did, I'm sorry, yeah, although we'd have to say too look at the cost of that marriage as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it cost him a lot, but they did produce Solomon. That's true, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 2:Always a silver lining or a gold one right.
Speaker 2:So, no that, no, and I actually can identify. David has always fascinated me as well, because he is well, I mean, scripture calls him a man after God's own heart, right so, and I wondered more and more about that. But you have the reality of what he does, with the power he has, and then the realization of what he's done and the story of him with Nathan, and Nathan telling the whole story about the lamb and whatnot, and then saying you are that man. That's, I think, a realization that more people need to have that dark side of us, and realizing that if given enough rope, we will hang ourselves and many, many others if we don't confront that right. So true, how about your favorite? I'll do an easy one your favorite bird.
Speaker 3:Ooh hawk Eagle.
Speaker 2:You had eagle written all over you. I'm sorry I could have just said and if you didn't say eagle, and if you?
Speaker 3:didn't say eagle. I'm a Scorpio in astrology and Scorpio's highest symbol is an eagle. The lower symbol is obviously a scorpion, but the higher symbol, some might be aware, is an eagle, and I've always been attracted to eagles, not just because I'm a Scorpio, but it's a symbol of the higher self in a lot of the ancient traditions, as is the hawk, by the way, raven.
Speaker 2:So you should actually come where I live in Sauk Prairie, wisconsin. We're. We're near a, an Eagle watching. We're an Eagle habitat in the wintertime in particular. So it's a. We have bald Eagle watching days, in fact, in Sauk Prairie. So this is, this is the place. If you're an eagle person, this is the cat's meow. How about you Bear? You have a favorite bird?
Speaker 4:I said hawk, and then you took eagle. I'll say raven. I like ravens, ravens, okay.
Speaker 2:Said the raven no more, the raven never.
Speaker 3:Well, you do have raven-esque hair.
Speaker 2:I mean that's obviously a tie-in.
Speaker 3:Do you have a favorite type of music? I do. I really like. My musical types have changed over the years, and more so recently. I'm very fond and I owe some of this to my lovely wife of smooth jazz. It's just. I like jazz and the smoothness of it. It's calming. We play it a lot in our home and office, which are offices in our home, and it's it's really nice. It sets a nice vibe or environment in the home.
Speaker 2:Do you have a particular type of jazz? Are we talking bebop, straight ahead? Fusion is there?
Speaker 3:uh, no, no yeah, yeah, I mean I, I can get into some of the others too, but but not not, uh, in volumes. Okay, you know the smooth jazz, we can play that all day long. And people come to our home or our office, whichever they're visiting, and they invariably say man, the energy in here is just so nice and that has a lot to do with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. My roommate in undergraduate and graduate school first year was a jazz major, worked on a master's degree in applied saxophone, which I didn't even know there was such a thing, but he got it. And so he was like you listen to jazz or you don't listen to anything at all when we're in a room and I'm the same way. It was like one of these forms of music I found and thought, wow, there's so much here. So, and everything from you know Thelonious Monk to you know gosh, we, what were we? He was really big into David Sanborn, so it was more so in Phil Wood, so all the the saxophonists and Stan Canton and all the people that you know. We're in that kind of classic age of jazz. So I'll have to come hang out at your office If I'm ever where you guys live. I'll just come out, I'll sit in the corner. I won't bother any of your clients or anything, I'll just sit and just be by myself.
Speaker 3:We have statues of eagles in our house.
Speaker 2:I mean real eagles.
Speaker 2:Does that count? That sounds like a good plan. I like that, Okay. How Sounds like a good plan. I like that, Okay. How about last one? Is there a favorite memory that you have or a favorite thing that, when you come across it, it just brings you back to a really well-centered or just a really fond place? Because I think of, like you know, people talk about baked bread. The smell of baked bread just brings them back to their mom's kitchen or something, or or you know something that just really resonates deep inside of them. They don't even necessarily understand it, but it's like, man, I got to have more of this in my life.
Speaker 3:What'd you take that? Because I took the last one.
Speaker 4:Oh, um memory. Well, that's kind of. My memories are not so.
Speaker 2:So it might be a more recent memory. It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 4:Okay, so it might be. A more recent memory doesn't have to be okay, so more recent memories. I would say, um, yes, there is a song that that I hear that will take me back to a place of centeredness, which is it's just yeah, I can't even explain the feeling. It's almost like being high or something. I don't it's, it's an amazing place to go to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's nice how we have those things too Right, and um, and, and sometimes I don't know if your experience is this or not, but um, sometimes when I try to forcefully create it, it doesn't work. But then there are other times where I really need it and it happens and I feel like, okay, thank you so much, god. Thank you, just thank you for letting that moment happen right now and helping me to be sensitive to that that it was happening, right, so, but yeah, all right, all right, you got time to think there. You had lots of time to think about something dear well, yeah, you gotta I had the answer the moment you asked the question.
Speaker 3:My favorite memory is the night that my wife proposed to me.
Speaker 2:Oh, here comes the grizzly again. I'm going to turn off the viewpoint here for a little bit.
Speaker 3:It's a really fond memory.
Speaker 2:It's a great story, but anyway, so you knew from that moment on this was it, it was just done. Right, that was.
Speaker 3:Yes. Well, she's a woman who goes after what she wants and I wasn't moving quickly enough for her. I'll tell you. The quick story is I had planned to ask her to marry me and I had the ring, and I'm a hopeless romantic. And so I had this big evening, this big gala, and I had a penthouse suite, you know, in the top of the strip in Vegas, and we went out to dinner the weekend prior and we haven't had a drink for two years. We don't drink anymore, but we used to drink some wine, not a lot, but we had a couple of glasses of wine and I was sitting there and I it just came out and I said well, honey, you know, I, I see us being together for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 3:And she said are you proposing to me? And I said no, if I was proposing to you, why would I do it here? I want to do it right. I was going to get down on my knees the whole thing. And and she goes well, are you, are we going to get married or not? And I said I said are you proposing to me? And she goes yes, I am. What's the answer? I said yes to your question.
Speaker 2:Oh, how romantic. Oh, my heart's going flutter, flutter with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah it's so it's so, it's so, Beersabah, and she gave me the cost of the suite, and you know I still got the prize, so anyway. And you know I still got the prize, so anyway.
Speaker 2:You know, that's probably one of the more beautiful stories I've ever heard. So it's people being people so well, I have to ask you about this because it struck me so much. Your biography talks about a childhood that I can't, I just can't imagine, I just can't. And I probably a good thing that I can't, because you had to live it and it's. It's gotta be hard and not to I. I know that you guys are. You're really your lives, your mission, your, your work is about not being trapped in those moments. But I think it's a powerful trapped in those moments, but I think it's a powerful, maybe invictive, if that's the right word, for people that are thinking their life is just so awful and, you know, just stuck in that awfulness that can you explain to people that the awful place you were in and how, how, that you look at that awful place from now, from the vantage point of years later, is that yeah?
Speaker 4:So I was born in Iran at a time where the actually there was two things going on. There was one, the war with Iran and Iraq, and there was also the. They called it a revolution, but it wasn't a revolution. It was the Islamic regime that took over Iran, and when that happened, they gave a hard time to anyone who was not of the Islam faith. So I was raised in a Baha'i family. So they gave the Baha'is and the Jews and the Christians a very hard time, a very hard time. What I mean by that is that they would throw them in prison, they would rape the women. I mean it was a mess, and so that was going on.
Speaker 4:And then there was also a war going on with Iran and Iraq, and one of my first, a few of my first childhood memories one was bombs being dropped in our neighborhood. That was norm. You hear gunshots at night, sirens going off, bombs being dropped, one being as close as a couple of houses down from us, the other being that the military came, knocked down our door in the middle of the night, just ripped my dad out of my arms and threw him in prison. And when you go to prison there, you pretty much don't. The thought is that he's not coming back. That's it, it's done. How old were you the first time it happened? Because coming back, that's it, it's done. How old were you the first time it happened? Because it happened a couple of times. The first time it happened, I believe I was three years old. The second time it happened, I was either five or six years old, and the reason the second time it happened was we were going to leave the country, and you can't just leave, you have to escape. So my father thought let me go first and create a life here in the States and then I'll bring the rest of the family.
Speaker 4:Well, he got caught. He got caught and thrown in prison and thankfully he still made it through. And when he came out, we all decided to leave together as a family out. We all decided to leave together as a family. Now, this time I'm being probably seven years old. So we had to. And how you did it? There was you find someone and you pay them and they smuggle you out of the country because, yeah, and if you get caught, you you know you die. That's basically what you're risking. And so we did that. And there, when you pay these people. First of all, you don't know who these people are and there's a lot of things going on there, like human trafficking, sex trafficking, all that.
Speaker 4:And I remember the second stop from this person that was transporting us from our stops we had three, four different stops within the desert and he took us for a ride for hours like we were lost, but he had other plans. We didn't have any water. We totally dehydrated, no food, my mom was passed out, all the brother was passed out, and my dad kept telling me you know, you need to stay awake. It's important, talk to your brother, make sure that he stays awake, because this guy had something else planned for us and thankfully, the Turkish police pulled us over and he had water. He gave us water.
Speaker 4:I'll never forget that water, the drink us water. I'll never forget that water, the drink of water. And I remember I was just standing there staring at him, hopeless, hoping that you know, asking for help with my eyes or something, because he looked down at me and he just he was staring back and he's like you know what. He decided to escort us to our next stop in Turkey, turkey, which he saved our lives pretty much, and from there we had to live in pakistan for a couple years so that we could get our visas and come to the states. And you know, living in pakistan was we slept on the floor, it was a mess, it's not something. So when you come to the states when we came to the states, it was kind of like oh, now we can, it's, it's safe. You know you could go outside, you could sleep at night and not worry about bombs or people, a military coming in and you know doing things right, so right.
Speaker 4:You have a appreciation for freedom, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:And then this happened. Well, this happened over a series of time. Some of the other stuff I read about in terms of the lifestyle choices that you made initially, which obviously the trauma reaction, right and the you know the, the adult maturity or whatever you call it, the faculties to be able to say no, this isn't the right way to go. I you know that that makes sense, but when, if you were talking to somebody right now that has has a life, that they're saying why me? Right, that that question gets asked a lot, what? What would your first words be to a person that's saying why me?
Speaker 4:Why is this horrible life have to happen to me? Well, I would say, yeah, that's a tough question to answer, but in the ultimate sense, I would say why not you? In the ultimate sense, I would say it's these very things that gives you the capacity to be able to experience something far greater. Because if you don't have the depths, let's call it hell from hell. How can you know something that's amazing or close to God? You can't, because there is no reference. You can't compare Right and the, the. And I understand it, because when you come from traumas of whether you know, I've had those traumas with my child and then getting into drugs, and then alcohol and the addiction and substance abuse and all that and there's other people who experience sexual abuse and all those things, these things, what happens? It scars us.
Speaker 4:Now, what I had to do was I literally had to go back and I worked on all of these traumas to heal them, because the reaction it was having was the actions I was taking. For example, I smoked cigarettes for 24 years, I did all kinds of drugs and I drank tons of alcohol because of the addictive personality, because there was this pain inside that nothing would quench it, nothing would save me from it. So I started. The cause was you know the traumas, I didn't know that, and the effects were the cigarettes, alcohol and drugs. So then, when I took all those away, then I started dealing with what I was suppressing from before and little by little and you got to work at it, because it's not easy, it's hard work Little by little I healed each trauma and went through it with James' help, leech trauma and went through it with James's help and and it's possible for someone who comes from a broken background like that to be able to live from a new perspective, completely new person, and not be your, not be attached to your experiences.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah Right, not be in love. I think sometimes there is a little bit of a I'm in love with my misery, right. It's such a such a comfortable relationship that to, to you know, break that relationship. It's the only relationship sometimes I think people have. It's the only relationship they trust because they know where it goes Right. It's a risky thing.
Speaker 3:It's a risky thing In some cases. You know, there's a concept in psychology called secondary gain, and you're probably, maybe, familiar with this, but in some cases it gives us a convenient excuse to not take responsibility. Well, you know, I'm, I'm a little demon. And why should I not be? Because look at the demonic things I've been through and the reality is, yes, you've been through demonic things and, yes, you are a demon, and yet that's not who you really are. And if you're willing to take responsibility and do the work, then you can step into your true self. Right, but it does take work. I mean, we've been together 11 years and it's um, she's, she's worked diligently. I mean, I, I don't know, I've worked with, you know, over a million people from 147 countries and and I've never met anyone that is so committed and has so much perseverance like she has. And that's what it takes. It's not easy, it's really not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you want it handed to you. It's not going to be so. That wraps right into one of the first questions. I have to say too, I love your suggested interview questions because they're things I would have asked anyways, but it's just nice to see you're already suggesting them. I don't have to worry about getting into some territory that you go. Oh yeah, I wish you wouldn't have asked about that or get ticked or something. But you have a book out. You actually have a number of books. That was part of what we didn't talk about in your intro is that you're a bestselling author, a New York Times bestselling author. So no slouch task there. We're not talking to some guy. Yeah, he's got the Indiana South State of Indiana bestsellers list. Oh, wow, yeah, which means you bought a bunch of copies yourself. That's right, right in my garage.
Speaker 2:Right right, Anybody can be a bestseller now, but the books that you were known for up until this time, I think, seemed to be more kind of self-help books I guess I'd call them. But your latest one is called the Business of Redemption. I thought that was an interesting title, but what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3:I suspect it has something to do with exactly what Merceabah has been through the business of redemption right, it does, and what I've been through and that's what brought us together and literally allowed her and I say this with absolute, literal intentions she saved my life Because, if you know my story, I went to the peak of my profession, you know I had everything you could imagine Larry King, oprah, best-selling book, you know Inc 500 company, all those things and then lost it all in a heartbeat in a horrible accident in Sedona, arizona, in 2009. And ended up, you know and if you want to get into the details, we can get into them but ended up I talk about all of this in the business of redemption is ended up in a horrible accident, lost it all and ended up going to prison for two years for negligence, because three people actually lost their lives in a sweat lodge that I was conducting, broke my heart, and so I came out in 2013 and I was 54 years of age and I was in horrible physical condition, had periodontal disease. I was alone. I didn't know her, yet we met in 2013. I was homeless and I was $20 million in debt, and so you know where do you go at that point, and so I had to dig deep and I realized I really needed redemption, and I believe and I'll define that clearly in just a moment, but I will say with conviction that our country needs redemption, our world needs redemption, every one of us needs redemption.
Speaker 3:What does that mean? We hear that a lot in spiritual circles, which I'm totally in alignment with. And yet, if you look up the true definition of redemption, it is to gain or regain something by paying the price. And so if you, as a viewer today, need to gain something you've never had, then you need redemption. If you need to regain something you once had but you lost, then redemption is your answer. And here's the key, though by paying the price, because there's always a price for the prize, and the bigger the prize you're going after, the bigger the price you must pay. That's just how it works. And so bigger the price you must pay. That's just how it works.
Speaker 3:And so so, as I stood there in the desert and realized I was in desperate need of redemption, I realized I had to really remember who I was. I had to get my head on straight, I had to get my heart in the right place I had. I had to think about who was I going to be. I call this version of me James 3.0, which implies there's a 2.0 and a 1.0. And those you know, we talked about 16.7. As a 16.7, I've had some previous crash and burns, and that's part of our path in this lifetime from a mystical perspective, in this lifetime from a mystical perspective. And so, anyway, that's what I talk about in the business of redemption is the entire story of what I did while I was in prison, my entire journey there and what I did after I came out and my climb back to I'm.
Speaker 3:Obviously, today, the debt is fully retired. I'm great, I'm super grateful. I'm in great health and fitness, maybe the best health and fitness of my life. I'm not alone anymore. You know, I'm married to the most amazing woman on the planet and I'm not homeless. We've got a beautiful home in Henderson, nevada, and so, again, what I would say to you, much like similar to Beersheba, if you're struggling today, which a lot of people are, you know there is redemption, there is the God-given potential within you to take your power back and you have to remember, first and foremost, who you are and then you have to continually remind yourself of that daily.
Speaker 2:You know I keep listening to you and I apologize. My brain keeps coming up with this question. You talk about it in your book right at the very beginning, the why me question. And yet one question I never see, and maybe I haven't read far enough in the book, so I apologize for that.
Speaker 2:But one question I never, or one assertion I never hear you say or read you say is it's not my fault, and that, to me, is a critical thing today, especially with our political leadership, we have so much of this it's not my fault mentality that, as long as that's part of our psyche and part of our you know strategy for dealing with the world around us, I don't really care anymore. You know, if you can't accept responsibility for your part in it. I mean the world, the nation, our communities the way they are right now. It is all of our fault and we, we either have to fess up to that and say, all right, what part did I play in this? And then confront it, or we continue to live in denial, which denial is not just a river in Egypt right, it's, it's, it is a real thing, that was my line, oh sorry.
Speaker 2:I had to be. I knew it was coming. I needed to get it out there quickly.
Speaker 3:I need to be the witty host.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the way it works, you know you're.
Speaker 3:You're so spot on I, you know, the border is not my problem, it's the problem of the president. That was three years ago. Please, I mean please, all right. Um, what I talk about in redemption is taking absolute responsibility. Absolute, and I mean that literally, because I've been really blessed to have some great teachers. One of them was a kahuna, which is a sacred teacher in the huna tradition out of the South Pacific, and he told me you know, to take absolute responsibility for every single thing in my life.
Speaker 3:For instance, if I don't like who's in office, well, to your point, how did I contribute to that? You know, if I don't like what's going on in our country, how did I contribute to that? And it's very empowering. Some of the things seem to be a stretch, you know, I don't know that I can take responsibility for that, james. Well, just pretend like you can. And if you come from that perspective, it's a very empowering thought experiment, because when you take absolute responsibility for everything in your life, then you have the capability to change it. As long as you're playing the victim or pointing the finger, you're going to stay the victim and you don't have the capability to change it, and I find too, in my relationships in particular, I get distracted by other people's dilemmas.
Speaker 2:you know other people's well, you should be doing this and that. That, to me, is, um, well, I have a lot of theater background and to me that's the same thing as an actor that's worried about another actor's lines. You know that's the quickest way to forget your lines. You know, it's just. I hope they don't blow this. Oh, my God, they blew the cross. You know that's that's, that's just a surefire way to kill your play, right? Do you find that to be true? In the consulting that you do, that people have to stop focusing on, yeah, see what they do, see what they're doing, and that takes the focus off the inner journey that we have to be on, which is, yeah, but what about you? Don't worry about the speck of dust over there, worry about the log over here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very wise teacher said that, the speck of dust, the log over here. So, yeah, very wise teacher said that, um, the log in your own eye, um, and and and yes, I, we find that all the time. And in fact, um, you know, it's almost like that's an, it's an epidemic. You know, what do other people think? Well, let me tell you what other people think. They don't. They don't think, you know, they don't, they don't really think about you. If they, they have so much going on for themselves they don't have the time or the bandwidth to be concerned really about you. And if they're a troll or they're just hating on you, then get a life, I mean seriously. And get a life, I mean seriously, get a life.
Speaker 3:And other people's opinions can keep you stuck, and I see this all the time, you know. I'll give you a simple example, mundane example the giant, the business giant, who goes home to his parents or her parents' home, and the parents still have them frozen in time as a child and they treat them like a child. And I've seen those giants, those intellectual giants, become children with their parents, you know, because other people's opinions of you can keep you stuck and you have to, you know, I find so many people selling out their morality, selling out their truth, selling out their capabilities, because they're so afraid that they're going to ruffle some feathers. Well, I believe and it's a lot easier for me, raul, because I got knocked down hard, you know, crucified by the media, literally crucified, and boy it hurt.
Speaker 3:But now I'm kind of Teflon, because after you get called so many names and get so many arrows coming at you, then it's kind of like whatever you know and and, and I think we all have to develop that, and it really pains me to see so many people selling out their truth and selling out what they believe because they don't want to ruffle feathers. And what I'll just say in closing on this topic is if you're not making waves, you're playing in the shallow end of the pool period. You know you should be making waves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a Japanese proverb, something to the effect of the nail that stands out gets hammered first. So, and there's a lot of truth to that. So in America today, bear, as a person who's relatively new American right compared to those of us that are in our 60s I think I'm 63. Yeah, okay, and have been experiencing America for a long time. So what's the key right now?
Speaker 2:If you were to say, I've talked with holistic medicine people, and they talk about how our pharmaco industry is so interested in treating the symptoms that they don't get at the cause of what's going on. And I see that happening a lot from my perspective in our country right now, that we're looking at symptoms instead of looking at the cause. And I think that a lot of it comes to one of the questions you have about the softening of the men in the world today and toxic masculinity. And I thankfully live with two women, my daughter and my wife, that are both intellectual superiors to me in many, many ways. Wife, that are, you know, both intellectual superiors to me in many, many ways and call me on my baloney really quickly, and sometimes I listen and learn and go, thank you so much. And sometimes I go, oh, yeah, so, and you can imagine how well those times go. So, and it is always.
Speaker 2:But I, one of the things that has come up is that toxic max masculine masculinity, and I see that in in the world and in our country, and particularly uh, and globally. I mean, you look at, you know people like Putin and you know, uh, jing Chao Bing and their toxic masculinity definitions right there. What do you say to people that are looking at a world that needs softened men and to get them to say that's not a softened man, that's a real man, that's a person that sees a higher calling for men and women everywhere. Is there a cure for that? What's the cause of that? That we see it so stupidly?
Speaker 4:We were talking about that this morning.
Speaker 3:Over coffee oh.
Speaker 4:That was our topic.
Speaker 2:Oh, excellent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, what we come up with was the cause. Well, I was telling him I've noticed. Okay, so if I were to look at Gen Xers and below, so Gen Xers, millennials, and is it Gen Zs?
Speaker 3:Z yeah.
Speaker 4:So what from? I don't know the age range, is it 50 and below, or 55 and below, I'm not sure? But Gen Xers are like borderline millennials, they don't. They're um, they're kind of toxic masculinity. Yeah. So they're angry about everything, they're angry about it, but they still have a little bit, I think, of masculinity. But then you have the baby boomers, I believe. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:Well, that's my generation, so your guys is generation and I look at that generation. I say those are men we need. These were men. This is what men used to look like. Hey, I like her.
Speaker 2:No wonder you married her so yeah.
Speaker 2:What is that man? What I mean? I I feel like you know the the whole thing going on right now with Trump and the insurrection is it an insurrection? I would have more respect for them if they would stand up and say damn right, it was an insurrection. We were standing up to this country once and for all and blah, blah, blah. I mean that would be refreshing. But instead of oh it was, it was just a demonstration, we were just protesting, our free rights speech and I'm like, really Really, so we can't even have the integrity to call ourselves what we are, which is messed up, right. I don't get where that? When does it stop? When do we start? You know, we used to be great. We are.
Speaker 2:America has so much potential for being great. We are squandering it in stupidity and ignorance and denial and lack of humility. You have a story that I think typifies that right. Everything is stripped away from you In prison. You know that is about as low as I think anyone can go right. Story that that, I think, typifies that right. Everything is stripped away from you in prison. You know that that is about as low as I think anyone can go right, and yet you came out of it without going. Not my fault, not my fault. See, I was absolved from it. It's not that you came out of it going. No, I'm, I'm gonna rectify this. How does america do that?
Speaker 3:why don't you talk about some of the qualities since you started this? Some of the qualities of a true man.
Speaker 4:Well, I would say one of the things that I see that's missing. If I were to look at it generationally between me and him, I would say I'm a millennial, so I'm 43. So I'm and he is a baby. So what we were missing was the um the family unit. There were growing up, there was no family. The tv raised, raised me, and he had a family unit. Um one thing america had, uh had, I say it's still kind of some people still have it is um values and their and the constitution which is in god, it was that that's what it is is principles and values and family and structures and rules, morality, morality, virtue, right, yeah, in places where yeah yes, and when?
Speaker 4:places, when these things no longer are an effect or account and anything goes. Oh I, one day I could be a man, next day I could be a woman, I could be whatever I want. I feel like I'm a cat.
Speaker 3:I mean what? Is a woman. What is? A woman.
Speaker 4:When you don't believe in anything, you'll believe in anything. Pretty much, You'll believe in everything. So, and what I see happening here is kind of and they, what do you call it? They clothe it in its democracy.
Speaker 4:Well, okay, inclusion Inclusion, democracy, inclusion and you know well that's what they were preaching in Iran right before the Islamic public took over. So what I see happening right in front of my eyes here in the United States is the same thing that happened in Iran, and it was all in the name of democracy. And then, when it came, the regime, whatever you want to call it and the Ayatollah came out the very first day in power he said OK, from this day forth, the women have to start covering their head and everyone's going wait, what? What happened? And that was it, and that's what's happening here. I mean there's people that speak out the truth and they're getting thrown in prison in the United States. Right, I mean that's crazy. Without a trial, without a trial, I mean that's scary. Yeah, so that's scary.
Speaker 4:They broke the family unit, they took the father out of the house, the mother out of the house, and they said no woman needs to be like a man and work no, she doesn't. You know, to be a mom is very noble and it's a job. It's a very important job. It's not demeaning, it's the most important job a person could have is to be a mother, because you are raising the future. Yeah, but they diminish that.
Speaker 3:It's been very much minimized and I think bears was correct, the, the shattering of the family unit. If you look at and I'm writing about this in my new book which I'm working on right now but if you look at how the hierarchy used to be, it was God and then it was family and then it was church and then it was maybe community school system and it was maybe community school system and we could argue maybe they shuffle around a bit but where there's no argument is the pinnacle of the hierarchy was God and in a secular society which is defined, secular is defined as religious indifference or skepticism. We've gotten so far away from that. Let's call it a vertical relationship, even though that's a metaphor, and so it leaves us at Flatland, it leaves us with a horizontal relationship and the only thing we have and Beerswood didn't have a family unit, my family, my dad was home every night for dinner. My mom was home when I got home from school. We ate every dinner together and we talked with each other and debriefed our day and that was the norm. Well, not anymore, you know. And so, unfortunately, what happens? Well, beersipa happened. She didn't have that structure. So she goes out into her neighborhood, which was not the best of environments, and starts interacting with gang members and people who are doing drugs. And now this becomes the norm and I build my ethics based upon what I see around me, versus these fundamental principles that are moral and right and true, that are innate, innocent unless we suppress them and move away from them.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's such a thing. I would have to disagree with you, respectfully, on Putin. I don't think there's such a thing as toxic masculinity. Well, there might be. Well, there might be. Yeah, andrew Tate, or some of those you know. I mean, that's machismo, that's not a man, I'm sorry. You know, macho is not masculinity, because if you're a man, you don't have to prove it, you just are it. And so for me, you're, you've got integrity, you've got morals. You, you want to take care of your, of your woman and your family, and and you can, you can share your feelings with your woman and your family. You don't stuff them and say, oh, that's not manly. You know, um, I was really blessed. I grew up with a father most in my genre or in my age bracket, and maybe you too were taught men don't cry. Well, my dad told me, men can do whatever they want to do, and I was. I was blessed, you know, and a lot of us were taught walk it off, bucko. What do you complain?
Speaker 2:about.
Speaker 3:Now that's needed when you look at may I may I use the term snowflake, Right when you? Look at the snowflakes. Who, oh, I can't work eight hours a day. No, I mean please, please. You know I'm, I've been in this body six years and I work 12 hours a day. Right, so come whining to me, get your butt out there and get busy, um, and do something with your fair fair.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, and it's difficult, we taught you know. And I shouldn't bring, uh, I guess, national figures into the equation, because the difficulty with all of that anybody that's in that realm is the media defines the narrative for how those folks are described, right? So we don't really know, we can't know, I'm not. You know what's the Mark Twain's old saying you know, believe, believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear. You know. So, in there, it is so easy to have our perceptions of anyone you know narrated for us by someone else and again not think about it, right? So, because you have to, I really am thankful for my background in theater, because I played a lot of characters that were, quote, unquote, despicable people.
Speaker 2:You know, they were folks that you would not like if you ran into them at a cocktail party. And the reality is that when you're playing any character, you have to understand that nobody sees themselves as an antagonist. They just don't. Everybody has a reason. Right, I'm a complete jerk. Because, if I'm not a complete jerk, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or because of what happens, I'm the protagonist. Right, I'm the protagonist.
Speaker 2:Right right, what are you talking about? These happens. I'm the protagonist. I'm the protagonist, Right right. These people, these people are the antagonists, because you know they ask stupid questions in the morning. Why can't they be more like coffee? Coffee doesn't ask stupid questions in the morning. So, yeah, I mean there's. So I, you have to be, I know we have to be careful of that and we we are. I think part of the problem with the softening of men or the whatever all is, is that we're allowing other people to define that for us. Um is there, is there a driver? And we're running out of time. I'm really sorry about that. I'm looking at the clock. You're going. We have to have an easy question at the end here that we can wrap up with um, is there, is there a really powerful driver in human behavior? And that you think any person could take and say I'm going to really just work on this thing, this behavior, this attitude.
Speaker 3:Yes, I would say for men, if we're talking about men, a couple of things workout, you know it's important. God gave you a body and your body needs to be strong and flexible. Workout that takes discipline. Number two stay away from porn. You know. I mean, if you look at, if you look at current research, a lot of our younger men don't even care to have sex anymore. They don't. Their, their sperm count is in the tank and this is all documented and that you know that's a driver of the male, the masculinity, and so stay away from that. It's going to ruin your future relationships.
Speaker 3:And work out and then study eternal principles. You know, as a true philosopher would say study eternal truth. Start at the great masters, because when you, when we're we have a group that gets together every other Thursday night and we're studying the great philosophers right now and when you look at all the great philosophers, from Socrates to Plato, um to to um, plotinus, to Buddha, any of them they talk about fundamental principles and truths. Be honest, tell the truth, be moral, be principled. Stay away from drugs, stay away from alcohol. You know all those types of things. It's pretty simple. It's just simply not applied.
Speaker 2:And there you have it. So, folks, my guests today have been James Earl Ray and Beersheba Beersheba Ray Bear. I'm just going to have to stay with Bear Beersheba Beersheba Ray Bear. I have to stay with bear Beersheba. But James is a New York Times bestselling author, philosopher, consultant, worked with over a million people. You said it yourself A million people in 147 countries. I thought you said not 146. So you've added a country somewhere along the line here. But author of many books that are wonderful, I would particularly put people towards your latest book, the Business of Redemption. I've just read the first couple of chapters and already thinking why didn't I start this earlier, before interview? I'd have much more intelligent questions to ask. And, beersaba, thank you so much for being alongside your wonderful man there and for supporting him. So thank you both for your time. I hope we can maybe join us each other again at some point in the future and talk some more, seeing as we got that much. That would be wonderful. We would enjoy that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, both of you, and thank you folks for listening to. Frame of Reference Profiles in Leadership. I've given you a great profile in leadership here, both the male and the female side of it, so please take it and run with it.