Frame of Reference - Coming Together
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Coming Together
Unmasking Political and Religious Manipulation
What if the very beliefs you hold dear are rooted in deception? Join us as we unravel the complex web of lies and manipulation that shape our society. We start with a light-hearted look at the weather in Wisconsin, contrasting it with the timeless, uplifting truths of the gospel. Our discussion navigates through the slippery landscapes of political promises and misleading advertisements, exposing the tactics used to control and divide us. We emphasize the importance of following the lifestyle of a person — Christ — rather than the dogman of a religion, and reveal how personal anecdotes and societal examples demonstrate the pervasive nature of deceit.
In our exploration, we dissect the tension between belief, truth, and deception, especially within religious and political realms. We delve into the nature of human kind and the heart's deceitful nature and the challenge of aligning personal beliefs with divine truth. Through current events and historical examples, including the contentious support of Donald Trump by evangelicals, we stress the need for love, understanding, and unity in our fractured world. Our conversation highlights how entrenched prejudices can be confronted and transformed through a genuine commitment to truth and scriptural guidance.
Finally, we underscore the paramount importance of truth, justice, and fairness in both personal and societal spheres. Reflecting on historical injustices and modern legal complexities, we encourage listeners to engage in self-reflection and recognize their role in societal divisions. With a nod to a thought-provoking Star Trek: Strange New Worlds episode, we highlight the ongoing struggle between just and unjust laws. Raul and Juan Haldeman Sr. wrap up with a heartfelt sign-off, reminding everyone to prioritize love, stay curious, and tune in for more enriching discussions. Don't miss this episode that challenges you to seek truth in an age of widespread deception!
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
let's have it well, good morning everybody. Good morning. It is gray and rainy here in wisconsin, here in Wisconsin, as my brother and I record this show, but inside we are bright and we are full of the sunshine and light of the gospel, I guess, ultimately, is what it comes down to, right. And that sounds like you know, feel the power of the television. And you know it's not. It's. Anyone that has listened hopefully knows us, knows that we're really trying to put feet and teeth to this thing called Christianity. And it's not about a religion, it's about a person. So, and we're using that person, that guy that we recognize, as a guiding point to combat some of the things in today's world. Oh and, by the way, if you didn't know, I'm Raul LaBrush and you find Sir R Antoine Haldeman.
Speaker 1:Sr.
Speaker 2:Now we're trying to. We got to get things going here. We got to get right to the punch this morning because you know my brother, antoine, he's got places to go for people to see things to do, right, so let's sit to it. What are we talking about today, antoine? What was that again?
Speaker 1:We're talking about. Deception is going to be the primary focus and how it relates to the country today, and then, of course, what the Bible says about it.
Speaker 2:That sounds like a deceivingly difficult subject, or deceptively difficult, you know. That's interesting too, because deception is determined by whether or not you accept that there is a truth or not. Accept that there is a truth or not, because you cannot be deceived if someone is telling the truth, nor can you be deceived if you know the truth and you can say that's not true. So deception really counts on you kind of not knowing either the person or the facts, or you know the situation or all kinds of things. And it also implies power being used, because if I can deceive you, if I can make you think I'm something that I'm not, or that I have something that I don't know, buy this Everglow product and you will feel young again. That's deception, right? Or you know, vote for me because I'm going to make the country wonderful. That's you know. Come on, really. And yet we fall for it all the time. What is that all about? We are deceived constantly.
Speaker 1:And of course, you know, the deception is to create the perception, you know. And of course, as we look through the lens of the country right now, you know we see a lot of deception. You know the withholding of truths, you know. And then, of course, the contradicting of things. You contradict them so hard and so that you minimize the benefit of it. Let's just use the Build Back Better example.
Speaker 1:Now, all this money went to all these states, right, but you know, then, of course, you have one group of people saying, oh, instead of saying it's a benefit to our state and to our communities and to the building of bridges, they're spending too much money. They're spending too much money, they're spending too much money. And then, of course, you know, when we talk about various programs, right, you know the preamble of the constitution, what it says uh, promote general welfare, right. But when we promote general welfare, again, that's uh, it's not reverse racism, it's uh, oh, you're, you're, you're. You know it's like a. A white lady will say, uh, that's racist, uh, that, uh, a black group is like giving these black women, uh, money to build businesses, and so it's like that deception. And of course, there's just so many forms of deception that I believe, I strongly believe, that certain groups of people, or the powers that be, have used psychiatry and psychology to manipulate and deceive the masses. I truly believe that.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a principle here too of the illusionist right. The magicians make you think, you know they want. How in the world did he or she do that? Well, that's magic, you know, and any magician who studies magic for a while will tell you about. You know, there are certain tricks to the whole thing, if you will. There are ways of moving people into ways of thinking that will allow you to perform the magic, which is really a type of deception, but it's one that we kind of enter into because it's entertaining and it's fun. It's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe he made a rabbit appear out of a hat, you know, kind of thing, which is, I mean, that is part of us, we like to be entertained. But this whole deal of you know what's the intent of the deception. I think of times where I've tried to deceive people because you know I'm capable of lying. I you know. Just ask we all are.
Speaker 2:Ask my wife, goodness gracious, you know. And most of the times when I lie, it's because I don't want to get in trouble and I think that somehow lying is going to avoid a hassle, or it's going to avoid, you know, a conversation I don't want to have, or there's all kinds of kind of motivations in my brain. I want to be liked, you know, because I know if I admit what I did, really did, it's going to mean that, you know, my wife's not going to like me or somebody's not going to like me because they're going to, you know. Oh my God, how could you do that and why? I told you not to do that. So all those things. Now let's take that on a global scale and a national scale, you know, and when it comes down to politicians in particular, they want to be liked, they want to be voted for, they want to have a constituency that will put them in power. So they lie, cheat, steal, whatever.
Speaker 2:And the interesting thing to me about it is that we choose. We, the voters that are going to the booths and casting our ballots, we choose whose set of lies we're going to buy. We choose the set of lies that we have the greatest affinity for. We choose the liar that we choose to believe more. And why Do people ever sit back and think, okay, I believe that this person is the best for the country possible and then ask ourselves, but why, why? Why do I believe that? I mean, why do you pick the friends that you pick? Right, I would never be friends with me lies through his teeth, you know, and that's people you have, are up close and personal relationship with.
Speaker 2:But these people that are on television and radio and come, you know regularly and tell us I'm going to save the country by being cool, we go along with that like it's some, of course, of course. Well, I know he's right, I know he is. How do you know? How do you know it's haves and have nots? You know it's all about. These are people that I tell friends all this time. 343 million people thereabouts in America and the candidates that we're going to put out there for this election are the best we can do. They're the best. We're willing to accept those options. So either people are not going to vote or they're going to say, well, no, I'm right, my candidate is the best, you're wrong and you're stupid if you don't vote for him. Really. That's how we want to decide the course of our country, huh.
Speaker 1:And, of course, these politicians that you speak of. They're using so many various antics and tactics and you know these various course. It's like when we talk about the politician now, you know, of course there's the illusion that they're the strong man is fit to lead the country. But the strong man is actually not a strong man. He just had people that were able to take the fall for him. But you know there's so many different things that shape narratives. You know we talk about the shaping of a narrative. You know people use various dissimilations. People use various dissimilations Again, we're talking about the omittance of truth, or just pounding the table so hard.
Speaker 1:You say the same thing and you say it louder and louder, to the point where a person says, oh, and they just keep repeating it, they just keep repeating it. And then, of course, we're seeing this now, like I'll use January 6th as an example. You know we talk about deception. You know when, even when you hear certain politicians talk about it now, they talk about it as if it were present tense. They use a different verb tense. They don't say oh, they were doing this, they say they are. Or they don't say oh, they were, uh, doing this. They say they are or they, they don't say, oh, they were just tourists. They are tourists, making it no again, that verb switch to make you say, oh, they are just now, they are just prisoners of war. You know what I mean. And so it's just all these little bitty little tactics that are being used in this.
Speaker 1:These small placement of words are just shifting entire sentences, in which are shifting entire narratives, and I just wish people would research things for themselves. You know, like the bible tells us, is to a king's honor to search out a matter, meaning that we have to research things for ourselves. We can no longer believe what Roy and Alice said about a situation we talked about this a couple of weeks ago where we were saying for as much as it's up to us, we need to learn the basic functions of government, what the judicial branch, the legislative branch, the executive branch and all the federal offices thereofof learn, their functionality and what they do. So when someone tells you something, you can say no, that doesn't match up with what I know. And again, people are.
Speaker 1:It's easy to hate, it's hard to love. Love requires work. That means, oh, I got to go and research something, I got to go learn about a person, I got to go learn about a thing, and it's easier to hate because you can just say, oh, I got to go and research something, I got to go learn about a person, I got to go learn about a thing, and it's easier to hate because you can just say, oh, I believe what they said, and that's that. And that's where, again, it's. This deception has a spirit of deception, a spirit of division has fallen on this country.
Speaker 2:The father has fallen upon the father of lies.
Speaker 1:Right so well, the prince, the prince of the power of the air, right and uh. But you know the the what the bible says. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood. You know, and and and we, as men and women of god, we have to really understand my, our pastor. His name is pastor john f h.
Speaker 1:He says everything is spiritual. It is all spiritual because if we look at the behaviors of the country and we look at what the Bible says about it, we see it coming to light. And that's where it's like the Bible says let God be true and every man a liar. Yeah, because every man is a liar, because his truth is going to be based on how he feels. So when we, instead of us, when we have to get to a point where we're living by biblical principle instead of personal preference, and, of course, when we're all living by personal preference, yes, our truths are going to be different and thus creating chaos and dysfunction and confusion. And of course, we know that confusion is not of God.
Speaker 1:So we people just have to take a step back and start to learn and research things for themselves. And and again, you know it's easy to repeat this thing, but it's hard to research the thing, it's easy to love. I mean, it's easy to hate, but it's hard to love because love requires work. And for you, for this group of people to love me more, they got to learn more about me. For me to love another group more, I got to learn about them.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, what is it? Lincoln said right, I do not like this man. I must get to know him better. You know, as a maxim for how to live your life. You know, you mentioned earlier on about psychology and psychiatry being utilized and I think one of the I keep coming back to this it's a study that gosh, I got to look up the exact name of it, but back in the 50s there was a psychological study on, like last day's profits and what makes people essentially continue to follow these last day profits even after they've been proven to be wrong.
Speaker 2:Right? So you know the world's going to come to an end on January 15th 1957. And you know we've got to prepare, prepare, prepare and they prepare. And then january 15 1957 comes along, and they prepare, the prepare, and it's 1201, january 16, 1957, and nothing has happened. So you would think people go well, what is? I've been following here, but no, what ends up happening is that that leader will usually end up doing something like the lord in his great mercy has decided to give us another chance to pry to, to get more people to follow him and to change. Blah, blah, blah. The new date now is and that can happen.
Speaker 2:You know two, three, four, five times with a group of people. I mean, there are still people that think that David Koresh was in fact the second coming of Christ, right, still still think that, right? So how do you establish a reality that says I'm going to hang on to this thing, no matter what else? The world, my friends, the facts show, and it has to do with the human heart, the heart. Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all things. Who can know it? And we have to realize that at our heart, at our core as human beings, is deceit and we align ourselves with it. And then, once we stick to something within it, that we align and say this is my truth instead of the truth. You know the word of God.
Speaker 1:What does the Bible say about it? Right?
Speaker 2:right, you know, and you say to yourself well, this is my truth. Well, once you set that thing as something other than the word, you're going to continue to find ways to continue to believe that, because it begins to define you. And we can't. We have a really hard time, like you say, bro, we have a really hard time saying you know all those things that I thought about black people, blue black people, you know, you're just. I got to give those up now because you're really not.
Speaker 2:You know welfare Queens or whatever the stupid thing is of the day, right, you're. You're people that are struggling to make a living. You're people that are struggling to make sense of life in an unfair world. Those kinds of transitions, those kinds of revelations. Honestly, yeah, there's a love component because, you know, beloved, if we love everyone, everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. So, if we can choose to love, if we can choose this is more important to me that we build bridges, that I understand that I really get to the core of what's real in this and what is not. Let's see what the Bible says. That's a whole better process than than any other that is being presented by any politician right now, especially the ones that want to say that they're biblical people and they hold a Bible up to show that they're biblical people, and it's upside down.
Speaker 1:Shouldn't that be a cue?
Speaker 2:Wouldn't you want to look and go? He's going to hold a Bible up to. I mean, as a Christian I would be. So you know like what the my wife would be all over you're holding it upside down. Now that's not super critical. It's like I should know that fundamentally. I should know that that isn't holding a Bible upside down and you don't hold the Bible that way when you're presenting it to other people, right. But in the deceptive process it's like oh, he was just grabbing it really quickly. Come on, he's got 16 preparation people with him. There's like 14 people right around him that could say Mr President, you have the bible upside down, you need to turn it around.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, thank you but no one dared to tell him that, or they thought it was important enough. I don't know so. And again, uh it, it all frames the narrative right through those dissimulations, uh, those equivocations, all those different things, those antics and semantics, right, all those different things create the narrative that he is a man of God, like you say. Even he held the Bible upside down. I don't know if he ever even opened one. He does not exhibit any fruit of the spirit and that's why I cannot phantom, why I mean, we're talking major evangelists, people that have millions of people watching them on weekly television, are saying that Donald Trump is this, that and the other, and I just I don't get it. And so that's why I know when the Bible says in that day, many will be deceived. You know we see the only book with prophecy fulfilled coming to light. And but again, when we're talking about deception, again it's those little things that create narratives. It's all about the framing of narratives. And people use all these euphemisms and all these answering questions, wit, questions, type of things they allude from the action, they again that verb tense we were talking about, all those different things you know go. It's like a big, it's circles things you know, goal is like a big it's circles. Just picture a bunch of little circles going around in a big circle and and that's it. That's the game we're in, that's the swirl, we're in the confusion, the chaos and and just all those things. And we know that those things are not from god, you know, and, of course, like the eluding of actions, you know just all these different things. Yeah, like this gentleman. Of course, he, just somebody, just got felt guilty on all 34 counts of this, on that crime, 34 counts, right, 34 counts. But yet, you know, again, the narrative is well, this is persecution. I'm being persecuted for your sakes, and it's like no, you try to conceal the matter.
Speaker 1:And now the bigger matter is that that little thing that you psychology, I believe that is being used. I believe that there's people sitting in a room saying how can we deceive these people? And they are carefully placing words and sentences to make people feel that, oh, it's us against them. Like you know, trump will say it's us against them. It ain't no us. He grew up in New York. You know you're talking to someone in Alabama. You know it's the same thing Nixon did, we, we, we, and it's like there is no, we, but they again. People don't realize that they're voting against their own best interests. The same people that are telling you hey, I'm for you. They're going to cut your grandmothers and your mothers and even your social security.
Speaker 2:And let's face it, you know, joe Biden is no saint right. It's not like we're saying, you know, oh, you got to vote for Biden because he's so much better than Trump. I had a discussion with the other day someone.
Speaker 1:I said you know, it really is the lesser of two evils when it comes right down to it, louisiana or Louisiana, either way, it's like the ones in South Carolina. They upheld them. And of course, now there is a obvious evidence of partisan. You know, partisan and. And nothing can be done about it. You know, and. But again, so many people have been manipulated, duped, tricked into believing that these behaviors are okay. And it's just over these years that all these lies that have been told we have slowly allowed ourselves to be conditioned to. Just, even though we know it's a lie, we just we tend to laugh it off.
Speaker 2:Or we find a way to continue to construct a way that that must be a lie. I mean, the 34 felony counts right, depending on which level of deception you're going into or which type of deception you choose to adopt and maintain. You're either seeing that as evidence of a corrupt judicial system, or you're seeing it as evidence of a witch hunt that's being successfully manipulated. Or you're seeing it as evidence of a judge and a jury that were obviously partisan and are looking to just corrupt and convict an innocent man. And you have another side that are seeing. Finally, the American justice system is working. Finally, the richest and the most powerful people in the world are being held accountable to the same laws that everybody else would have been held and is held accountable to If he had been anybody else, if he had been anybody else in any of the cases so far.
Speaker 2:You have to be able to talk to a lawyer. For God's sakes the evidence that they wouldn't have brought these trials in the first place if they didn't have evidence that they could prove something. It's just not worth the time. So they were taking a huge chance just doing this in the first place. So talk to a lawyer, talk to somebody who's really a lawyer. I'm blessed to have multiple friends and family members that are lawyers and they start going through the legal situations going on here. It is absolutely terrifying because if we can dismantle our law which is really one of the great cathedrals of our, our country, because that's where you get to prove innocent until proven guilty- you know, you see the demonization of, uh, the legal system or the judicial system.
Speaker 1:Because, again, let's look at the projectionism uh of the fact, because, like a prior to uh now remember, uh, someone wanted to use the attorney general to go after other people and then he even tried to appoint various people in the DOJ offices to go after other people. He even appointed this postmaster general to do all these different things. And now what is happening? They project, oh well, the doj is weaponized because they raided my house, or is being weaponized. All these things are being uh formed against me and it's like no, but you tried to do it in the first place. And that's where the projectionism and the answering questions with questions and the what about? Isms. I just wish people would just slow down and listen and start to do research for themselves.
Speaker 2:Think about magic too I'm sorry to interrupt I think about how, when you're a magician, what you have to recognize is that the thing that they're trying to get you to look at is not where the magic is happening. So, if I'm doing something really cool up here, what's really happening is somewhere away from where I'm trying to pull your focus to, and that's exactly what we're trying to do, right, we're trying to get you to think about. Oh, you know the words, you know I love your phrase there the antics of semantics. You know, because it is, it's the antics of sitting around the spin that we can have on things, Because, you know, I'm just amazed at the number of things immediately after the conviction happened. It's just, you know, this is just absolute terrorism. You know of our country that a leader, a strong leader, is such as being, you know, persecuted this way, and you're like I don't get it. Where did this all happen? That we decided that the judicial system is only just, if it does what I think it should do the laws?
Speaker 2:are supposed to be pretty clear, and if there's anything that we have been brought to believe over time is that if you have enough money, you can get out of things. If you have enough money and power, you can get out of things. Well, here's an opportunity where somebody had enough money and enough power to get out of just about anything and he really really tried and he didn't get out of it. We ought to be going, hey, it worked, you know, the laws got upheld. But instead now we're looking to say, well, no, those laws aren't just and that really wasn't true, it really didn't happen that way. He's being held accountable to something that didn't happen. Okay, so, and think about that. Let's just think for just a second America. Okay, think about the fact that the two largest battles that have been going on since Mr Trump was in office, one was to attack the media, which sorry media. It did a lot to deserve that. Okay. But fake news right. If anyone was doing fake news, it was people at the Fox News Network who, back in the 80s, in cable television, realized that there's money to be made here. If we just spin these stories and keep spinning these certain stories, there's money to be made. And then, of course, everybody else was saying the same thing, because they've got sponsorships they have to sell and anchor salaries they have to pay. Okay, so there's good reason to call it fake news. But then we went even further and started to say that anything that I don't like obviously is fake news. So now we've got alternative facts.
Speaker 2:I wish people would just spend some time thinking about what the hell is the phrase alternative facts, because when I was a kid back in the 60s, I could spend that to my mom and dad. Well, mom, I really didn't take that cookie that was in the jar. There was this cookie monster that came and took it and there's no such thing as a cookie monster. Well, according to you, mom, there is no cookie monster, but to me, I saw the cookie monster and he took that cookie. So that's an alternative fact, right? My alternative fact is a cookie monster came, there was, in fact, really, if you were watching and there was a camera, you would know that there was no cookie monster, except perhaps moi, because I did in fact take that cookie.
Speaker 2:But here we are right. Here we are accepting that on this grandiose scale, we can allow something as ludicrous as an alternative fact to exist and at the core of that is what is truth, and that's a philosophical argument that you really do start to have to get into. What is truth? How do we define truth? How do we know truth from lie? And that's where Antoine and I would come back to.
Speaker 2:Well, you got to start with the Bible, because there's truth there that has been accepted for thousands and thousands of years, prophetic truth that it's really. You know, let's take away all the well, all these cattle sacrifices and blah, blah, blah that you know are difficult to deal with. I get it. It's not like every single word has to be held on to. Oh, we got to do it. We got to stone people outside the gates. Still, no, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about core realities of the human heart, of the human condition, because that's really what we're talking about. Jesus. We're talking about somebody that came to heal. The heart turns our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. That's what ends up happening, and that flesh is the thing that is, a living flesh that can look at the world around and say that doesn't seem right, lord, what am I not seeing here?
Speaker 1:And again, it's like you know, when you were saying, like the alternative facts, you know, we really have to again, people have to search out matters for themselves. You know, of course, when we talk about these alternative facts, no, they are just basically like these vague statements or basically these vague expressions that will allow the deceit or, if you will, or the person, person, the deceptive person, to come back and change his story later. You know, and we have to really be like what you use, the example of, uh, the doomsday person. Oh well, god gave us grace, so it's gonna. The date has been extended, you know, and people have to really again have to start to look and research things for themselves.
Speaker 1:And again you also mentioned we were talking about the law people demonize the law. The lawmakers are actually demonizing the law right now. And so, again, to a simple person or a person that has not or is not willing to do the research for themselves, will just take that and run with it. And again, that proper, that propagandizing of the mind, you know, of course we see it repeating a matter, repeating a matter, repeating a matter, it's we're in a space where, like you said, you know, we have to get to a space of where we are seeking one truth.
Speaker 1:You know the Bible tells us lion lips are an abomination to the Lord, but he who acts faithfully are his delight. You know, and of course we know, that unbalanced skills are an abomination to the Lord. Scales are an abomination to the Lord. When a person is trying to manipulate votes and gerrymander and all these different kind of things, is that not balancing or trying to unbalance the scales? It is happening in plain sight. People will begin to open their word or seek out worthy spiritual counsel that is not one-sided to a matter.
Speaker 2:And again, that's all we can pray for at this point. Just people turn to God. Yeah, and truth. Truth is unifying. You know, truth and love are unifying principles, they're unifying concepts, they are unifying ideals and, you know, righteousness is unifying, justice is unifying.
Speaker 2:But if we can't admit, if we can't, you know, I mean, part of the problem I have with law is, I'm a Star Trek fan and I just watched an episode of Star Trek, strange New Worlds, and it was fascinating because it was actually about justice and discrimination. And one of the characters, who's a, you know, a genetically modified individual, is court-martialed, put on trial for having lied about it, because in in that society they're not accepted. It's considered, you know, a horrible crime to have genetically genetic modification done. But they used that then as a whole foundation for discussing the idea of laws that are just and laws that are unjust. And even in the defense attorney's arguments she started talking about how there are all series of laws. We used to think that it was okay to discriminate against somebody for the color of their skin and we've used, you know, the religion that they practice as a reason to discriminate them and to keep them out of things and to punish them. You know that's the history of human civilization.
Speaker 2:But the reality is that at some point we come to realize that that is an unfair injustice and we change the laws so that they accommodate the fact that we now recognize this is unjust and we're not going to allow it anymore. We're going to make that this illegal. It's not like the law is perfect and lawyers will tell you that, but what the law is is actionable. So if we can choose to just believe, okay, is this interpretation of the law convenient or is it just? And that's where those precedences are set Right, Exactly right, right.
Speaker 2:And that's where our Supreme Court has got some real fun ones up ahead of them. Because if you decide that a president is immune from prosecution for things they did while they were in the office and you know, take a step back and think for a second. If a president does things that are so bad that you have to hope and fight and pray that you can get immunity so that you don't get in trouble for doing those things, then I got to ask why are we even allowing a person to have that kind of power that they could do those kinds of things and not have to be afraid of immunity. No, this is the first time that somebody has done things bad enough, that are serious enough, that have serious enough potential consequences that their only hope is to be immune.
Speaker 1:And we've got, you know we got to go back to the early parts of this thing. Remember how many uh it probably over a hundred lawmakers, uh, between the uh house and the Senate, were all lining up for pardons because they knew what they were doing was wrong, yeah, yeah. And then you know what does the Bible say? Uh, theness and justice is the foundation of his throne. That means the equality, the equity, the fairness, the justice. You know those are the foundations of his throne. You know the, you know taking care of the fatherless and the widow foundations of his throne, making sure that there's equity and equality, foundation of his throne. And of course, now, justice. Now is a well, well, you get what you deserve. Or well, justice.
Speaker 1:People have changed the word justice. It has, uh, multiple meanings now. Yeah, well, if you don't work, you don't eat. And, of course, if you don't do this, you don't do, you don't get that. And that's just justice. That's just the way it is. And it's like, again, the preamble, what it says, uh, provide for the common defense. No republicans and democrats can agree on hey, let's spend money on defense, but promoting general welfare. That means making the scales balanced because, again, we we had this conversation over and over again about how the scales became unbalanced in the first place. Not as that, as you try to fight to balance the scales, the fight to keep them unbalanced just becomes greater and greater. The enemy is getting bolder and bolder, the lies are getting bigger and bigger and louder and louder, and it's just again. People are now using, people are using forms of intimidation, you know, and all these different things, to maintain the lie. Right, rather than uh, rather than just say you know what I was wrong, right, you're double down on the lie, and so it again.
Speaker 2:That's why we pray that's just, and a challenge to anyone that's listening, and challenge anyone that you want to get to listen. In this whole field of deception and I alluded to it with magicians right, they're deceiving us. They'll tell you well, it's a trick, it's magic, you know, which is, yeah, I fooled you, right. But what's important in that whole situation, too, is we I, you, everybody we allow ourselves to be deceived. We allow it. That's something that you can't deceive someone if they don't allow it. It's really difficult to deceive a skeptic, because a skeptic is very unwilling to believe anything without serious, regimented examination and their own experience, which is very much. That can't possibly be. It's just. How could that possibly? How could black people possibly be right? How could white people possibly be?
Speaker 2:The things that entrench us and make it so easy for us to be divided are things we're allowing. So ask yourself, ask God in prayer, god, what am I allowing myself to be deceived in? How am I looking at the world and allowing things that I've been taught or things that I've been told that I, you know, have never challenged? How am I allowing them to color my interactions with people on the basis of their skin, on the basis of their religion, on the basis of their you know cultural background, on the basis of their political affiliation? Really, because isn't it much more interesting to get to know people that are very different from you?
Speaker 2:I find it fascinating that anyone that you talk to and you start to ask questions about hey, how did you get into that? Why do you enjoy doing it? Why do you not enjoy doing it? What sorts of things have you done with that? What kind of experiences have you had there? Have you had there? I mean, those questions of getting to know people are so much more fundamentally important to human beings and us finding a way forward than it will ever be by saying, well, you don't know this and you don't believe this, and if you don't get this through your stupid head, we're never going to get anywhere. That is not how we've ever gotten anywhere, except when there are warlords involved. That's usually the. Those are the people that are really successful with those kinds of tactics. So is that who we want to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and going back to the earlier part of our conversation, again, people having to research things for themselves, you know, of course, the Bible tells us simply do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world, so we have to research the matter again. Proverbs 25, I believe, 25 and three. It is to a King's honor to search out a matter, to research a matter, and yes, that's going to require work, it's going to, it's going to hurt, it's going to, it's going to know.
Speaker 1:When the mirror is put to our own face, sometimes we ain't going to like what we see, but it has to happen in order for us to get rid of this spirit of bitterness and this spirit of wrath and anger and clamor and slander and division and just this chaos and dysfunction. We got to learn how to be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, because that's what Jesus came to do for us we got to learn how to be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, because that's what Jesus came to do for us.
Speaker 2:You're the man and you just talked about the man. You're the man and you just talked about the man and you got to go. I'm looking at my clock going. I got to get him out of here. He's got to go. He's got places to go. He's a full seat. But, bro, it is always such an honor and such a joy to pull back the cover on some of this stuff together. I hope it still is that for you. God, please let it be that for him as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, brother and I tell you off camera all the time, man, how grateful I am to have you and because I consider you a friend. Man, uh, you know, you and I we could can have some bare knuckle, bloody knuckle conversations about what is and it's always good to have that. Just say, as a black man, have that white friend. I can ask you a question that it doesn't sound silly. It's like hey, this has been a perception or a misconception that I've had. Can you help me figure this out? And then that teaches me hey, I've had the wrong thought process, or whatever the case may be. And so that's where this comes in, brother. So I greatly appreciate you, man.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bro. So, ladies and gentlemen, and dogs I hope some dogs are listening. I love dogs. So you've been listening to Frame of Reference coming together. My name is Raul, that's Raul, like Raul La Bresh, like fresh. And you are sir. That's Juan Haldeman Sr. And we are so happy that you tuned in and listened to this today. We hope you'll listen again next week, following week. We're not sure. We kind of do this like the wind. So, but everybody, take care and go do some thinking okay and, more importantly, do some loving. There it is All right, there it is. Take care, man, see you.
