Frame of Reference - Coming Together
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Coming Together
Navigating America's Future: Unity, Justice, and the Power of Dialogue in 2025
This episode delves into the complexities of 2025 and the interplay between personal struggles and societal change. Antowan and Rauel emphasize the importance of humility, open dialogue, and education as essential tools in overcoming division and fostering a compassionate society.
• Discussing feelings of anticipation and anxiety for 2025
• Reflecting on the importance of family and community
• Addressing personal losses and mental health concerns
• The role of honesty and vulnerability in fostering unity
• Exploring the critical need for education and awareness
• Sharing stories of resilience and hope for societal change
• Encouraging listeners to embrace their narratives for healing
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
And let's have it. Let's have what, man, oh, oh, we're going to have getting together, the family of reverends is going to get. We have been vacationing, I wish we were vacationing right bro. So we have been taking in the world of entertainment. We call it a hiatus. We have been on hiatus, so doesn't that?
Speaker 2:sound fancy a hiatus.
Speaker 1:We have been on hiatus, so doesn't that sound fancy. I think you know if we're on a hiatus, where's my mint julep or my you?
Speaker 2:know scotch and seltzer, Because any hiatus.
Speaker 1:I go on, should have at least one of those.
Speaker 2:Or brand new old-fashioned.
Speaker 1:I'm from Wisconsin, right, so at least feel rested, right Pretty much. But no, we've just been slacking. I guess that's what we've been. We've been on slackvation or slackcation, but we're back.
Speaker 2:We're back, bro, we're back time with the time with family isn't so important. You know, that's what it's all about. You know, uh, you know the holiday season, just uh, taking time for self and uh, just regrouping, really just uh, finishing up the work of, like, the last couple of months. You know, of the end of the year, of course, you're always just trying to solidify and finish up the things from the 2024. And, of course, now coming into 2025, coming in with three hands and it's just like, okay, this is a year. You know, in our realm it has been declared the year of manifestation. So you know, me and my ministry and the people that are walking with us, we are walking and believing and trusting that the promises of God will manifest in our lives. So that's where we are, man, we just get hearts of expectation and we are just, we're really excited for what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:Amen, you know, and we are, boy. This is 2024 was such a year of ups and downs. My wife's been struggling with a lot of health issues throughout the year. We lost my mother-in-law after years of struggling with dementia and just failing health congenitive heart failure you know. So life is life, right, I mean you just you have ups and downs, you have hard times, you have great times, but then you know, america is where America is at now too, and you know whether you're, you know, an avid MAGA supporter or you're, you know, ultra liberal or somewhere in between, which you know I'm, I guess I've always thought of myself as being the guy that's watching both sides going.
Speaker 1:Well, that makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, that's really stupid. Oh, that's terrible, you know, and the thing that worries me is that there just aren't enough people doing that anymore. You're either all one or all the other, and if you, you know, even think about that, there might be truth on the other side of the equation. You're a heretic that should be burned, you know, it's just I. So that's my question today is where are we now, you know. So we, we have, we're what? Four weeks into the new year 2025. What, what do you think 2025 looks like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, just all we can do. It's going to require some prayer this year, that's for sure. Just based on the today's, the 25th, you know, as of the 20th it's like okay, here we go. But you know, it's just. You know we have to just. You know, from a Christian standpoint, a kingdom eyeball standpoint, we just have to believe for good things. We have to pray for the leadership of the country.
Speaker 2:But, yes, the words from their mouths are things are going to be tough. You know we see some of the actions already taking place. You know we see that the Civil Rights Act basically just got wiped out and the thing is a lot of people don't realize how much that document affects them. Yes, you may be not a person of color, but there were articles within that document that actually gave protections to white women and other people. You know what I mean. So it's like a lot of people don't realize that they've done this thing to themselves.
Speaker 2:The sad part is what we are going to see, and I hope people can just come to a realization and just not let pride kill them, because a lot of people are going to realize that they were wrong in their judgment, they were wrong in their vote. But instead of saying, hey, I was wrong, they're going to suffer in silence and die. All benefits are going to be taken away, just a lot of privileges and things. They're going to realize that, hey, the very thing that I was voting against, I'm actually in that group and instead of saying I'm wrong, they're going to just suffer in silence and die. Versus saying, hey, that's wrong, it's okay to change your mind, it's okay to say I was wrong and we got to give people, we want to give people the grace to say that and we just hope that, uh, people are able to say that this year hey, I was wrong, I made a mistake, you know? Uh, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah because that I don't know about you. But, uh, my, uh, my life has been filled with some pretty big doozies, you know, of wrongness and, uh, you know I look, I second that yeah yeah, it's just like wow, what was I thinking?
Speaker 1:you know, and, and you know, you look around and so many people are you know, how did cya become a thing? Right, cya became a thing that everyone knows what it means because that's the modus operandi, the mo, of the vast majority of people in the world. Um, I, I, you know, I'm, unfortunately, I think that's true. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I'm willing to be challenged. Anyone's listening wants to challenge me with real numbers on that, please do. But it does seem to be. The way of the world is to just cya, and to me that is like the weakest of weak things that a person can do in in retrospect. Because if you can't own your mistakes, if you can't own, you know, get married, you know, and find out how easy it is to just maintain that you were absolutely right and you, my lady, are just absolutely wrong, that you're going to be divorced. It's just, it's going to happen, it can't not happen, so, and you're going to still take your part of the problem with you. You know wherever you go for your next landing. So can we get to the point where we as a country which is what made america great? You know, we want to really talk about what. What made America great is.
Speaker 1:Our country was formed on a bunch of regular people for the most part. Yeah, a lot of leaders were landowners. I get all that. Some of them were slave owners, for goodness sakes, you know so. But the common folk that fought that war that, you know, burned down the kingdom that was Great Britain right, took it to task and accomplished revolution. They were common, ordinary people and all of those guys knew that it could be better. They knew that what they had right now could be better and they owned their mistakes when they, you know, lost a battle, when they, whatever, they owned their mistakes. And we don't teach that enough that it's okay to screw up. Don't lie about it. Don't lie to yourself, don't lie to me. You screwed up.
Speaker 2:Now you know if we make screwing up so reprehensible.
Speaker 1:If we punish people so horribly for screwing up, then they're going to learn. Why should I even bother trying to do good, you know? Because doing the good thing, admitting that I did the good thing, you know I'd get punished just as badly for it. So there's got to be some reward to doing a good thing, which is telling the truth, right? You don't punish a child so much for telling the truth that they think, well, I'm never going to do that again, never, ever, ever, that would hurt way too much. But if you say, thank you for telling me that, john, John let's look at what happened there.
Speaker 1:Why did you do that? Why do you think you felt like that was a good option for you, right? And why aren't we doing that in public forums? Why aren't we doing when people are yelling at each other about? You know, critical race theory? You know where are the people that can just sit down and say excuse me a minute, but do you know what critical race theory is? Well, no, I don't. I really don't. Well, why are you so adamant against it if you don't even know what it is?
Speaker 1:So because the vast majority of people are really don't know, know they've been told by people that they trust that it's something bad. So they're, and because they trust those people, they fight hard against it, but they don't know what it is. So that's, that's where, to me, where we need to be in america is I've I I hope that this year holds out people learning how to talk to each other. As you say, the humility comes from admitting I was wrong doing this. I think we were wrong, honestly, all of us that were hoping that Harris would get through. I think we were wrong to let the focus largely be about a woman's rights to her body, not to say that isn't an important thing, that that wasn't it shouldn't have been the foundational.
Speaker 2:Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean to have it be the centerpiece of the discussion instead of the, you know, just confronting the evil of you know what, what was what's going on in us, and combating the lies. So I, you know, I completely agree. There's a lot to be talked about in the whole combating the lies. So I, you know, I completely agree, there's a lot to be talked about in the whole area of the right to life, the right to choice. All of that needs to be discussed. But we're going off target. So I hope we get that humility that that says I think I think we can do better.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I, this is what I did wrong, and I hope we can also get to the point where we want to learn again, because there's so many people are just buying. You know like, we're so far into the you know subway that we can't even realize that. You know there's a stairway, sir. We can go up and see what's outside of the subway. You know we can get off the train here and we can go up those steps and we can see what's what's at this stop and we're not, we're just staying on the subway. You know just, so many are just in the tunnel and in the tunnel and it's going faster and it's going faster, it's going pretty soon.
Speaker 2:There's not going to be any stops and that's where, again, we uh, we definitely, like you, say, we have to get off that right now. And again, it's going to start with you know, when we talk about you know, like we were just talking about giving people the grace to not beat them up when that person says, hey, I'm wrong about this, or I misjudged this, or I had the wrong information about this. You know, of course, instead of just saying, hey, we told you this, that and the other is just simply now, ok, now that you see what is, won't you come together and let's try to fix this thing? You know, of course, for Martin Luther King's birthday you know the celebratory day, which was on the 20th I spoke at an event and I came from a scripture Philippians 2, 3 through 5, where Paul Apostle Paul. He was saying esteem others higher than yourselves. And then, of course, that and if and I kind of just kind of talked about how you know that's a call to action, it really is. You know, if we can, if we can actually begin to have that mindset in this country to esteem others higher than ourselves, because, like you said, we are in a CYA environment, everybody wants to cover, they cover, they Right and, of course, if we can, if we can come out of that mindset and just simply say, hey, you know what I was wrong. Or even in the fact that we're in this instance where we people tend to say, okay, that person made a bad mistake, they made poor judgment, they made poor decisions in their life. That's justice, that's what they get for not being raised the way I was raised and we got to stop we have.
Speaker 2:When Paul says that he's like, hey, we got to go back and reach people, bring people up. If we see that brother struggling, let's go get him. We see that sister struggling, we got to go and bring her out. We got to help. We got to esteem others higher than ourselves. And if we could actually come to that type of mindset, a lot of the things in this country that exists. Uh, john, pastor john bevere said this the the church is under attack and it's under attack by the church. You got fractions of the church attacking the church as a whole with their because they want us. And we see this live being lived out right now.
Speaker 2:Where things are, people are forcing their perceived way of life onto others and it's like, if you don't have what I have, if you didn't have the education I have, if you didn't come up in this upbringing, if you just didn't, if you didn't learn, if you, it's shame on you that you learned these things later in life. You know, it's just again. If we could begin to just say, man, I was wrong. To just say man, I was wrong Because, like we, I applaud those like you know, there's some white supremacists that I've seen speak and they say how they were radicalized and they, but they repent, they come out of it and they say, yeah, I was wrong about this. And if we can get more and more and more people to do that, the country will start to take a different shape. You know, of course it. The country will start to take a different shape, you know, of course, and just same as on the other end, you know, there has been harm inflicted and there has.
Speaker 2:Even myself, I had to come past some preconceived notions that we've talked about in previous episodes and, of course, this, what we're talking about, that ability to say I was wrong, that's what brought you and I together, yeah, saying hey. You know, I want to know more about you, I want to know more about what you think. I want to know, not just you. I want to get why people think the way they think on that side, just like you asked me on this side.
Speaker 2:But if we can, again the dialogue has to start taking forth now. We're going to have to boldly force these conversations now Because, again, every stream of every stream of, let's say, well, we know that all streams of revenue for the advancement of color people being cut off, that means resources and all these other things are being cut off. So it's like we're going to have to have people reaching across the aisle to say I need to know more from you in order to better help you, and and vice versa, because again, we can no longer, uh, we can't live. All these things are based on lies and we got to get past the lie. We got to get to the truth, as you just said what do you think?
Speaker 1:how do you determine? How do you determine whether something is true or not?
Speaker 2:How do you determine whether something is true or not? Me, yeah, in present day, when I'm told something, I line it up with the word of God. I'm like what does the Bible say about this thing? It's just that simple. What does the Bible say about this? Because, you know, the Bible says let God be true and every man a liar. And, of course, if we were talking just using the political realm, if we're talking Republican, Democrat, they both tell lies. They both do. You know, and it's just and of course how they say you vote according to the lie that best fits you. But regardless of what is being said, I'm like what does the Bible say about this?
Speaker 2:There's a pastor, his name is Pastor LC Green. He passed away a few years ago and he was mentoring me in ministry and one of the things he said was hey, when you're asked a question, don't feel like you have to answer it on the spot, but go and research it. If you're being told something in like, say in conversation, go and research it, just say, don't be afraid to say, say I don't know, because you know, out of pride, we'll start talking there. Before you know it, our perception becomes truth and then, just like that there is a whole nother narrative created. So he was like go see what the word says about it and let the Holy Spirit give you the words to say in it, because again you know, again that's where where we are now. A lot of personal perceptions have been created into these narratives and the narratives have become reality for some people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So just yeah, I, you know, I, I. I just had a talk with a friend of mine this morning and it was interesting because we talked, he, he. We always end up baiting each other into the Republican-Democrat thing and I'm like, dude, you know, I'm not a Republican.
Speaker 1:I'm not a Democrat, politicians are liars. I'm not going to align myself with one party or the other, but at some point it came up that the Democrats are in his mind. Democrats are. They have to like you better, toe the line exactly or you're out, whereas the Republicans are a much bigger tent. And I thought to myself boy, that is contrary to everything I see. But I wouldn't argue that because it would just be a big, you know, black hole argument.
Speaker 1:But it's always interesting that when we think we're right, absolutely right, we don't ever look for how we might be wrong. We don't ever look for how we might be wrong, and so that to me is like the key things in leadership that I have not seen in years and years is leaders that are able to say you know, I don't know. I'm going to have to look at that more closely. And the other thing, going back to kind of what we were talking about before, is leaders that say you know what? I was wrong. I tried to it, made that point when talking with this person and I said you know, that's the thing I've never liked about Trump is that he I've never heard him say he was wrong, and he thought about it for a minute and he said well, he did. He admitted that he was wrong with people that he appointed the first time around, because, you know, they ended up stabbing him in the back and I thought to myself that's really not what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:But okay, okay, you think that's an example of we're really talking about in 2025 is we now have gone from a war about political substance to a war on the soul of America, the heart of who we are, who we want to be, who we will be as a people. People you know, and we have been a people that has on a freaking Statue of Liberty says you know, give me your tired, your poor, your wretched, refuse, yearning to be free. That's who we said in 1887, or whatever Somebody fact, check me on that date. But when that statue got installed, me on that date. But when that statue got installed, that's the plaque that we put onto it.
Speaker 1:How far have we gotten away from the soul of that plaque, the heart of that plaque, to where we are today? That one of our key issues was building a wall strong enough to keep all of those murderers and rapists and you know it's like what you know, if you took the example of the millions of people that came through, the number of murderers, rapists and whatnot that were part of that contingency because I wouldn't argue that they weren't part of that that that group of people, I bet you it's a lower percentage than what's here now, okay, I bet you overall ratio to ratio can't prove that. Would have to do some data research. But you know, again, we're on the subway tunnel. You know I'm not going to. Don't confuse me with a fox.
Speaker 1:You know it's like we can't fact check anything anymore. That's wrong and I get. Fact checking is a tough thing too, because who's the fact checker? Right, if you're going to do fact checking, you better have a fact checker that's really committed to facts and not just enforcing their you know their agenda, whatever that agenda may be. So I think that's what I'm hoping for in 2025, that the real men, women, people of God that really want to know the truth, that really want to align themselves with compassion and dignity and respect and caring for one another. You know the first John scripture beloved let us love one another for everyone. Everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. If we just do that, if we just do that, everything gets so much better because it's right at our fingertips.
Speaker 1:But we've got to travel as crap and just be loving, be caring, be compassionate, be light in the midst of this dark subway tunnel. Yeah, I mean, it's all in there. But you and I both know you can't really do that in a lot of circles because people will say oh, here it comes again, another Bible. Thumper Break. Come on, hypocrite, bring it. You know, because we have been. There are so many freaking Christians around here that I go. Who put you in a pulpit? You know who the heck gave you the right to call yourself a man or woman of God. Give me a freaking break. So I get it. I get it. I get it. It's a tough book to carry.
Speaker 2:But, and the thing is, it's like the book is basically a mirror. The Bible is a mirror and it shows you the ugly. You and a lot of people don't want to look at the ugly them. No, of course, like I said, when I actually got saved and started looking at the word, it showed me the ugly me, and I just praise God that he gave me a heart to repent and be baptized and be saved and be able to admit my wrongs and confess my sins, that I'll be healed. You know what I mean and but you know I was talking to I think I mentioned this before in a previous episode, but you know it's like. You know I was at a conference in this previous episode, but you know it's like I was at a conference and this African pastor, he made a point. He was saying the Bible in the hands of Westerners is, you know, it's dangerous and, of course, because what's happening now, it's like.
Speaker 1:Don't do this at home, people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I mentioned on Sunday I mean not Sunday, but on Monday, on the 20th. At that event I was like, if we can start living more by biblical principle and less by personal preference, we'll start to move the needle in the kingdom and we'll start to see the kingdom of God manifest. Because again it's like it's all about you know, my way is right and of course now these things are being forced on us, a lot of things. You know, like you were mentioning the quote that's on the Statue of Liberty. It's basically true, as long as you do what we say do. If you do what we say do, or how we say do it, it applies.
Speaker 2:But we are in a space where people are feeling threatened and people just want to impose their way of life, their perceived way of life, onto others. And you know, and again I feel like the country has been taken hostage, has been bamboozled, because a lot of people have been put into a stronghold or or fear mongered, into a way of thinking like, oh yeah, this is bad, they are bad and this is bad, but they're quickly going to see what's true and what's not, and again, it's just when that day comes. We just hope that they have the ability to say I'm sorry, or the ability to say I was wrong. And uh, when we can, again, we can live by biblical principle, less by personal preference. Well, this thing will work itself out, you know, because again I don't want to say I don't want to. Just, you know, paint over that. Oh, it'll work itself out. But the hope, the Holy spirit of God will start to move when the hearts of the people repent and turn back to him.
Speaker 1:Well, and will we be the kind of people that they feel safe enough? I mean, fear and this kind of warmongering and whatnot only works in an environment where people don't feel safe, Because if you don't feel safe, you do a lot of irrational things. If you don't feel safe, you do a lot of irrational things. And, quite frankly, I think a lot of us have made it not safe for folks to voice the things they're afraid of.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about things like we want to shut down the border because all these rapists and murderers, we've got to keep them out, which was one of the main messages. It still is. That's why we've got to send all these troops down there to guard it, to keep all these rapists and murderers out. But what they don't show you is the stats of the number of those people versus the number of people that are just coming for a decent chance to make a living. They want to come and earn money and so many people that I know that are, you know, Latinx that are earning minimal wage or slightly above minimum wage and living with, you know, large groups of people so that they can send as much of it home as they possibly can to their families so that their families back home can have a better life. I mean, they're some of the most self-sacrificing people I know, some of the most loving people.
Speaker 1:I know because of what they're trying to do, and now we're going to hurt them.
Speaker 1:And are we even thinking far enough to realize that? Well, you know who's going to do all the cleaning that these folks are doing for us? Who's going to do all the cooking that these folks are doing, who's going to like? This past summer we had cable companies putting fiber in in area and there were a bunch of hispanic men that were digging holes in the 90 plus degree weather, digging big, honking holes like shoulder depth holes so that stuff could get pushed through. And they there's not a white guy among them. There's not a single white guy, because no white guy in the world wants to do that job right.
Speaker 1:So here we are now with this. Okay, we come good, now we got this done. But between that and between tariffs alone, when I think about tariffs, does anyone understand how tariffs work? You know exactly. It's just you know. And does anyone you know? When we're combating that's what's the other thing like in the whole election process, saying you know?
Speaker 1:Vice president har Harris was the borders are. Oh my God, why didn't that get knocked down immediately? Borders are. Do you know what a vice president does? Have you taken civics class ever? Because I think high schoolers have to take civics class. Vice president basically does squat. That's why he himself called it the most meaningless job in the world, talking about JD Vance.
Speaker 1:So we have to have a way to lovingly, compassionately, humbly, respectfully, lead people to think about things. Maybe that's the part I hope and pray for the most in 2025, that we learn that it's okay to think about things, that it's okay to challenge our own beliefs about things and say, yeah, I just don't know. That's part of, like you said, part of the reason I wanted to have the conversations with you is I just don't know what it is to be a black man in America. I can never know that, just as I will never know what it is to be a woman in America, just as I will never know a lot of things. But I would like to understand it, and I would like to understand that because I think it makes me a better person to understand it instead of just like have this picture of it, that I keep making things fit into the picture, even though it's, you know, not even looking like a picture anymore, because it's got so much fuzz and crap on it that you're not even sure what the original looked like. I don't know, man, I hope we can move the needle.
Speaker 1:I hope if anyone's listening and watching or whatnot that if you've got ideas, if you think things you'd like us to talk about or you want to get it in on the do, because the only way we're going to get through this is together. We've got to figure out a way to stop being Republican and Democrat and stop being whatever and start being people that look at other people and say that's not right. That person shouldn't be treated like that. Yes, we're just going to make the problem worse if we keep letting that happen, because when you want to talk about any of our social problems that we have in America the things that are not making America great, they start with those conversations making them better. Start with those conversations being had to say you know, know what? We have screwed this up royally. I admit it, and it wasn't just the democrats, wasn't just we screwed this up royally. How are we going to fix it?
Speaker 2:yes, and, and you're exactly right, and I just wish we could come to equitable solutions to the problems, because you know, like, when they, like you said, getting rid of, uh, not just taking republican and democrat out of it, because at the end of the day, I'm like you said, getting rid of uh, not just taking republican and democrat out of it, because at the end of the day, I'm like you know people say, oh, we don't want to go, we don't want the government, all in our business. There are some things that I just think need to be universal, across the board voting rights, you know, basic civil and human rights, uh, and I would even be for the monitoring of our natural resources, you know, like, if. However, if they like say, you know, of course, like water consumption, all these different kind of things, right things to minimize waste, think I would be all for it. However, in this, in this context, I have to say that, you know, I would be all for it if it could be all dispersed in an equitable manner, not this group getting more than the other. I would be. So, from a federal standpoint, I would be all for it. But now, of course, the powers that be now are saying, hey, I want to give it back to the states, I want to give it back to the states, I want to give it back to the states.
Speaker 2:And again we've seen what is happening in the states. The states are creating these laws. It's like how can one thing exist in Georgia and not exist in Wisconsin, or vice versa? And that's where we are, and we got all these individual ways of thinking. But majority of those states are on the same agenda. They're on the same path. They have the same agenda. They're on the same path. They have the same mindset. They have one goal in mind and at the end of the day, I always say it's race, and money is what this thing comes down to.
Speaker 2:Like I said, the current administration. They just cut out the Civil Rights Act, basically, and and they're basically cutting off all avenues of resources to people of color, and they've given corporations the right and the ability, or even the excuse, to say, well, we don't no longer have to offer DI initiatives, we don't know how to have that anymore, and but everybody's doing this out of fear. They don't even realize that they. They realize it, but it's like they're going along with it, because a lot of times people need an excuse to do what they really want to do anyway.
Speaker 1:Well, people are running the show or know exactly what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's yeah it's really easy and part of it is the the chess playing that goes on in all of it. You know we'll move. You know, look at stuff like the Gulf of America. Right, the Gulf of America was one of those things where you know we're going to annex Greenland and we're going to. You know Canada is going to become the 51st state. All that stuff that is like, so, like inflammatory, and you know idiots that we are, many of us just get all, oh, my god, what are they doing? Why would they do that? Oh, that's so stupid. It's like I don't care what's really going on, because all of that kinds of stuff it's strategically done to be able to get you to not see what they're really trying to do. You know, it's like there it is, it's that whole thing that a magician does.
Speaker 1:You know, they'll always tell you. If you want to really know how a trick works, watch the hand that they don't want you to watch, right, because they'll do something with this hand. That's really very interesting. But it's the hand that's not calling any attention to itself that's really getting the magic done. You that's not calling any attention to itself, that's really getting the magic done, absolutely. And I'll be the first to admit I'm horrible at doing that. The only thing I can do is, from my acting background, I go I wonder who benefits from this the most?
Speaker 1:And it comes back to Ralph Abernathy man. I'm so thankful that as a young college kid in Waukesha, wisconsin, ralph Abernathy could come and talk to one of our classes. We had convocations and he basically distinguished lecture thing. And if anybody doesn't know Ralph Abernathy, look him up. But he was a trusted lieutenant of Martin Luther King's and was the chosen successor for MLK going forward. And I didn't even know that at the time. Ralph Albert who's this guy? And then you know finally was like oh, I probably should listen to this guy.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, the keynote of his whole speech is that white guys remember that the differences in this world are not between the whites and the blacks, they're not between the yellows and the reds, they're not between the pink polka dotted and the purple striped people. The differences in this world are between the haves and the have-nots. It's the haves' responsibility to provide opportunities and the methods for people that are have-nots to become haves, and it is the have-nots' responsibility to avail themselves of those opportunities and to use them as responsibly and diligently as possible. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist of that is yeah, our world is not built that way, our world does not work that way, and that is what will make America great. If anything will make any country, any world, great, it will be haves and have-nots functioning in that manner that there would. You know, I don't care if there's an oligarchy or not an oligarchy, if the oligarchy is committed towards building up the have-nots and the have-nots understand that the way for them to be a have is to take advantage of these opportunities and use them as much as possible. Fantastic, that's the way it have is to take advantage of these opportunities and use them as much as possible. Fantastic, that's the way it's working. But that's why all the stuff you're talking about, all the programs that are disappearing, all the grant for things that are disappearing. They are making it so much more difficult for us to achieve that world, because the haves in this equation have decided that they will have more if they cut off more of that stuff, which is their own stupidity, because any half with half a brain will recognize that the way to make more money is not to keep more money. The way to make more money is to give more money for things that will give other people more money, so that we all have more money. And someday we'll get to be like Star Trek and we won't even have this stupid money stuff anymore and it'll just be according to capability.
Speaker 1:You know you work, you're taken care of, don't worry about it. You want that? Fantastic, go for it. That's fine. We love that. That's great. What are you doing today? Oh, I'm going to work on making, you know, a better kind of more tasty water. Oh, fantastic, good. What are you doing today? Nothing, okay. Well, you've got to go do something, because you can't just sit there and not do anything. You know everything's taken care of for you, not just so you can sit around and do nothing. You've got to be doing something for the betterment of all of us. You know, I mean I'm oversimplifying it, but goodness gracious, that's if we could get the human heart of man. You know, heart is deceitful, above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it? Well, I know it. I know my heart very well and I can tell you, if I didn't know how to say it, I was wrong and I don't know. You know, I don't think my heart would be in nearly as good shape as it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like I love what you were saying, like how you know, it's like they have all these different distractions that are going on.
Speaker 1:Like you said, Greenland starting to fight with Panama and all these different kinds of things.
Speaker 2:You know they're all distractions and again, I just can't help. This is my personal thought this administration is the money grab, their friend. America is about to be bled dry, and that's what I believe. And, like you said, they're taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich. And it's almost like, again, my perception, people only want two classes Haves, have, nots.
Speaker 2:They want to put you in this space and I was talking about talking about this a couple of you know, in one of our earlier episodes where it's like, you know, of course, how do you basically, you know, capture a people, you marginalize them, you cut off all avenues of resources and then you marginalize them, you kind of force them to their own little separate spaces, and then, of course, you create laws against them and then you agitate them into breaking the law. And you know, and it's like, then, of course, the laws themselves. You know they're biasly imposed. You know, like, say, january 6th, prior to January 6th, there was a law about, oh, you know, of course, remember Trump. He was like, he hated the Black Lives Matter movement, so he created laws about gathering and things like that, but those things were not, they were not imposed. However, he let those people free, but that's a whole other thing. Yeah, yeah, but uh, it's like that's a whole other thing. But it's like, yeah, but it's like when we can get to the space where we, you know, like, say, we look at the hand that the magician doesn't want us to see, is where we can really say, okay, oh, I see, but, but I see, I see through the smoke. And that's where we can really say, ok, oh, I see, but I see, I see through the smoke. And that's where we, as a country, we have to start seeing through the smoke, through the good speech.
Speaker 2:And again, because a lot of this hate speech, it, it resonates and we it was told by the voting numbers A lot of people are feeling that way. And I'm not going to say all republicans are racist or all republicans, uh, hate other people, but there's, if every, anything absent of love is hate. And so if you say, hey, I agree with giving tax cuts to the rich, but you're sitting in a space where you're making less than a hundred thousand dollars a year, I it's like, okay, you need to. We need a financial literacy course. We need to teach you what terrorists actually are. We need to show you, uh, the actual functions of actual government.
Speaker 2:You know what the president does, the you know judicial branch, the executive branch, you know. I mean we have to really get get back to education so people can make sound choices versus going off of what they heard martha say. You know, martha said, oh, this is that and the other. And it's like you actually believe that and you'll waste years of your life running off on a lie. And, like you say, if we can just simply say I don't know and I'm sorry, we can start to get somewhere, walls will start to come down.
Speaker 2:With God's help With God's help.
Speaker 1:Man. Well, so there you have it 2025. The work is set before us, isn't it, oh man? But? But I believe that a friend of mine and I old, old friend of mine, been friends for over 40 years had lunch the other day, and I forget who the person was he was talking about.
Speaker 1:It was a podcast and the gentleman that was being interviewed was kind of talking about the state of the nation right now and the gloom and doom, darkness of you know what's all going on with all these executive orders and stuff. He said and I it just, I, just, you know. And the guy, finally the host, said stop it, stop it, this thing's right. Yes, it's dark, it's a hard time. You, you be the light, you do it, you be the light. And I thought, yeah, it really is kind of that simple, isn't it? It's? You know, we can sit around and think about how horrible, how awful this is and, oh, this is going to be just terrible. And he's going to do this and that and everything. It's just like okay, but how is that going to help us be the light? How is that?
Speaker 1:I still believe wholeheartedly, like Margaret Mead said it best you know years ago, that you know, never underestimate the power of a small group of passionate people to change the world, because, in fact, it's the only thing that ever has. So, be a small group, wherever you are. Form that small group of people that get passionate about looking at this world and saying, no, we're not going to let all this stuff that people fought so hard for, that television covered of people just wanting to be able to have a decent spot on a bus having dogs sicked on them by a police chief, know that. Just didn't think they were human. So he sucked you know sick dogs on them. He, you know, got the fire department to hose them down with you know full power fire hoses. That enough of America said, saw that and said no enough, and it started to change. Wow, because we, we as Americans said, as Americans said, that's not who we are, and we were again moving towards it.
Speaker 1:George Floyd, you know, don't give me this nonsense about you know, george Floyd was not a hero. George Floyd crystallized something for America that makes him heroic, regardless of what other problems the poor guy had throughout his life. He crystallized just how racist we were in a moment that again we looked at and said video cameras showed what happened to George Floyd by a police officer that was unregulated, a police officer that had the system, had failed him and he had failed within it to keep himself regulated and remember what his job was. And the anger, fury, fear, whatever took over. And, worse than that, three other officers watched it happen and enough of america rose up and said no, that can't happen anymore. And I'll tell you what, if anything, scared the shit out of the haves. That scared the shit out of them because they started seeing just how many people started reacting to that and marching that with masks, people marched and marched and marched to say not anymore, this can't happen, and not just in america, across the world. So we can do it. We do have there there.
Speaker 1:There is that spirit in America and in the world that says no, we just want people to have a fair chance. We just want everyone to be able to have an opportunity to live with dignity and compassion and to be able to care for people and be able to be loved and be loved just. We just don't need any other nonsense that says that you're better than I am and I'm better than you are because of anything. We're not, we're just. We're all trying to make it. We're just trying to get through, we're trying to become better. I hope, and if you're not part of that equation, then just please step aside so that people that do want to be part of that equation can make it happen, because you'll benefit Really. If you don't want to participate, fine, but you'll still benefit from that world being constructed.
Speaker 2:And I love it, ben, and you know, and it's like you know when we talk about you know, the issues of George Ford and we saw the outcome of it and the movements that came forth. You know, again this administration has, again, with all these executive orders and even prior to someone taking office, you know, just all these things were just all avenues of expressing yourself, lifting up your voice, are were being cut off, very slowly, behind the scenes being cut off and, like we say, like you know, of course, a peaceful gathering of color people and people of you know, people of color, is demonized. You know, and again, we saw January 6th. We saw that when other cultures, other races, other people, people start to advance, start to get ahead, start to move the needle and I hate to say this, but it's true uh, white supremacy is still here. It has always been. It just has been cloaked in other forms and other manners, but it's starting to show itself even more blatantly. Uh, because, again, cause again for them to cut off the civil, for them to eliminate the civil rights act and just gut it completely. That is a sign.
Speaker 2:And the thing is now, it's like we need people to come together. It's like, uh, you know, when the Bible tells us, hey, uh, be of good courage. Uh, fear not, for I'm the Lord, your God, that goes before you. We're going to need people of all races to stand up and speak. You know, I'm going to paraphrase a part of Dr Martin Luther King's speech where he says the voice of my enemy won't be remembered. It's the silence of my friends that's going to be remembered. And so we can't sit silent and we have to just say Lord, help us. And then, but also, we're in a space, we're in a time where we have to peacefully come together. We have to have open hearts, open minds, talk these things out and speak to what is happening.
Speaker 2:And again it's going to go back to people swallowing their pride, saying, hey, I was wrong about this thing. But it's going to take the pain of the hand that's on the country right now to come down on them as well as the rest of us, for them to see. And some of them are going to again say I was wrong, but some of them are going to just suffer in silence and die. They'd rather do that than say I was wrong.
Speaker 2:And when we can get, when we start to again speak in our voices the right way, the correct way, and again, we don't want to offend, we don't want to antagonize, we don't want to blame, we don't want to shame or, you know, we don't want to do any of those things. We just simply say, hey, I want you to hear what I'm saying, and then I want to hear what you're saying too. Let's put these two things on the table and really, let's get to the heart of a matter. Let's shake out what's not true, what's nonsense. Let's shake it out and get to these core things that we can come together on and start to move on right now, because again, but again, it is yeah, yeah, it's just going to take us. This thing is going to we're in some interesting times and all we can do is pray, pray, pray.
Speaker 1:There's an old friend of mine, preacher friend, friend used to say uh, just remember to speak the truth in love. And then he would stop and say because, remember, speaking the truth without love is too hard, speaking that love without truth is too soft. So speak the truth in love. And that that's a hard line to toe, right, because I'm going to tell you the truth, and it's not without love, and it's just like you're a piece of crap. That's what you are. I'm not listening to you. Or we come and say, okay, I'm going to tell you the truth because I care about you so deeply. That's just bullshit too. I'm sorry, because you look at that and say I don't believe this person at all. That's just, these are snake gales, snake oil salesman or or, uh, you know some kind of idiot, I don't know but you know.
Speaker 1:So either one or I really want to help you. I'd really do um somewhere in the line in the middle of that is let's try to tow that line for 2025. That says you know what? I don't know that, I believe that I don't know that. That's right, but show me I'm wrong. You know, like I don't, and that's kind of how we started this whole thing. Right was the.
Speaker 1:I don't know that this is really stupid, but I keep thinking about the fact that. You know, I was thinking that all black guys like listen to hip hop, you know, and they're like rapping all the time and you're like, hey, man, one of my favorite bands is Journey. You know, I'm like dude, I love Journey too. It's like okay. So if we can do it on the simple things, I think we've been doing some harder things than that too, but that was one of the moments where I was like cool, you know. Now I just had one of my stupid things challenged and I finally am understanding something I didn't understand before, and Lord knows I got so much further to go. But you know, I'm on the journey with you, dude, that's it All right. So next time, same place, same bat channel right and we've got to figure out. You know what's the next chapter. Look like, what are we doing today? What's our modus operandi, our MO? So figure it out.
Speaker 2:It's like what are you going to do to move the needle? What are you going to do to make a change? What are you going to do to transform your mind? Because you know we have to transform our minds, transform our speech, transform our behaviors. Where can you start?
Speaker 1:There you go, and so if you're interested in that tune in next time, Same place, same channel for coming together. So, frame of reference coming together. I am Raul Francis Desi-Aldula Brush and you, young man, are Pastor Antoine J Holland Sr.
Speaker 1:And we are trying to figure it out, america. We're trying to figure it out, america. We're trying to figure it out Because there's no reason why we can't all be like coming together. There just isn't. We're the only thing keeping us from coming together. So do that. Heart check, baby. Take care. Thanks for joining us. Folks Been a pleasure and you, my man, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2:All right, got you, brother, see you.
