Frame of Reference - Coming Together
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Coming Together
Empathy and Understanding Across Time
What can we learn from the bond between humans and dogs? Discover how the loving relationships we share with our pets can teach us about unity, cooperation, and understanding in our own communities. Join us as Rauel and Antowan lead a conversation on transcending unnecessary conflicts and tensions, focusing on the power of love and mutual support to achieve remarkable success. With Black History Month as a backdrop, we reflect on the pivotal lessons history imparts and how such insights can help us build a more harmonious future.
Unpacking the complexities of racial dynamics and job market inequalities, we challenge the myth that diversity initiatives result in job losses for white individuals. Our discussion underscores the crucial role of Black Americans throughout history, celebrating their contributions and recognizing the ongoing struggle against historical suppression. The painful legacy of slavery and its persistent impact on society is highlighted, along with the importance of education and awareness to foster a just and equitable world.
Reflecting on the harrowing story of Emmett Till, we confront the enduring issues of racism and historical injustices. Through examining events like the Emmett Till case and cultural pieces such as Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit," we delve into the roots of systemic racism and the need for society to acknowledge and learn from past atrocities. As we celebrate Black History Month, we urge listeners to engage in meaningful dialogue that honors the resilience and achievements of Black individuals, and to commit to creating a better future through understanding and empathy.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Let's have it.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome everybody. It's a Saturday morning here in the late part of February and I'm Raul LaBrush. That's Raul like Raul LaBrush, like Fresh, get it right. Because I have people regularly when I say my name is Raul and they oh, like Raul. And I'm like, did you listen to what I just said? It's Raul like growl. Now get it right or I will bite your ear. You know I would never bite anyone's ear, well, maybe my wife's, but anyways, and you are, sir.
Speaker 1:Antoine Hallman Sr.
Speaker 2:And do you bite ears by chance? I'm just wondering Say that one more time. Do you bite ears by chance?
Speaker 1:No, we don't bite ears by chance. No, we don't bite ears. Man Don't bite ears. Well, actually, god's word will bite an ear.
Speaker 2:I'll say that yeah, just like are you listening to me. Here comes the two by four. Boom yeah yeah, I'll bite your ear with this two by smacking the side of the head, but anyways, well, and this is, if you don't know already, this is Frame of Reference. Coming together, my good friend Antoine and I started this gosh. We're coming up on two years, I think now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no man Phenomenal when you think about how time flies, when you're having a good time and we're all about just like. I keep telling people. Maybe it sounds straight or stupid, but you know, I'm just kind of a regular old white guy coming up on 65. And I don't know if you're regular or not. I don't know if that's fair to say about you, antoine. Your life is like anything but regular, I think. But you know, you're not like some fancy dancy, whatever, you're just Antoine, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just a regular dude man that, uh, loves God and love people and, uh, of course, you know, uh, when we talk about, you know, moving to meet the needs of people, uh, people are going to people. So that mean, it's just, it's comical, is, is, is, it's just, it's, it's funny, man. But at the same time, you know, I love what we do as a ministry and, just again, loving God, loving people, man, and just learning from the lessons that we encounter, you know, because that's, at the end of the day, that's what history and understanding is all about Learning from mistakes, being able to share testimonies, being able to change the trajectory of people's lives, man, that's what it's all about, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I started watching this documentary and I got to finish it up but it's called the Mind of a Dog and I thought, well, you know, I've got dogs, I love dogs, I've had dogs for a long, long time. So I just want to kind of see what this is all about. And I started watching it and one of the points the guy made that I thought was so fascinating is that part of what makes dogs so successful as a species is because they figured out that if they help us, we help them. And so there's been like one of the things they pointed to was, in fact, pointing that you can take two cups and put food or a treat under one of the cups, move them around like the shill game or shell game, and then point to the one that the treat is under and the dog will go to that cup, where it's like even monkeys don't get the whole pointing thing that you're trying to help them. They just kind of do whatever, whatever. But a dog actually has figured out that we're helping them because they help us and that symbiotic thing going on is why we're both so successful and why we're so connected to one another.
Speaker 2:And I thought you know what? That's what people need to do Learn that helping one another is so much more powerful in terms of the success and the furtherance and development of a species, you know, or a group, than it will ever be to attack and denigrate and, you know, just try to decimate someone that opposes you in any way. I mean, and especially when you're like looking for opposition. I mean I feel like we're a culture, a nation right now, like looking to pick a fight. For God's sakes, we're going to put a 25% tariff on Canada. I mean, it's like putting a 25% tariff on golden retrievers. For God's sakes, canada and NS have been so loyal and intimate and connected to one another and mutually successful and then to use that as a bargaining yeah, yeah, give it to those canucks. What is going on here?
Speaker 1:So it's, it's just, it's funny, man, you know, of course. You know, one of my talking points in this love message is like can we as human beings learn, at least try to love another human being as much as you love your favorite animal? And of course, but people, they can choose, uh, what they choose to give to, what they choose to love, what they choose to, even uh, bother understanding. You know, a lot of us and a lot of people are are sucked up into their own little uh news bubble or even their own narrative that they're trying to create. And of course, uh, you know, we talk about narrative create. And of course, you know, when we talk about narrative creation, you know, of course, like you know, like saying, sticking it to Canada fans, this man, a lot of our resources come from Canada. Aluminum and some irons and steels and things like that come from them. And so it's like, why would you, like you say, bite the hand that's trying to help you, but at the same time, it's like you know, again, it's just we talk about like saying, we talk, we're in black history month, right, right, you know, we talk about no course and we talk, we ain't just trying to celebrate. You know the struggle and the pain, but we also celebrate the uh, brilliance and creativity and innovation of black people. And it's like we tend to know like that, those things that black people have done. They tend to be marginalized, but what we're starting to see now people are it's almost like this attempt at changing the narrative and going into the self marginalization you know, like you know trying to say, oh, we're going to be the smaller people, we're going to the way of Americans, as we know, it is going away, this, that and the other, and they create these narratives that try to almost marginalize themselves. And if we see, but you see, this narrative that's being flashed out and being created, like we were talking before we came live man, about how, you know, the young white male is kind of get grabbed by the neck into a lot of things that they may not yet fully understand, or just a narrative that's being created and instilled in their young minds that, you know, equity, justice, you know these things are not important or that they are a supreme or superior being to people of other nationalities and races. And this is where we have to just remind people, man, that we are all in this thing together and, of course, america is creating this thing and it's sad, you know.
Speaker 1:We see, like the closing of the border or the attempted closing of the border, deportation as an example, you know, of course and this is what I was saying a second ago where we have to come out of our own news bubbles to understand what get the full context, the full picture. Because, just as they are, like, say, as this administration is trying to deport Latin Americans, right, latino Americans, this is what they've done. They've actually. Are you familiar with what they are doing with white South Africans? No, they're saying that white South Africans are being persecuted, threatened, and so they're giving these people amnesty, they're giving these people refugee status, people refugee status. No, these are Elon Musk people, right? And it's funny how it's like we going to close the border, except for this group of people. So, basically, they're inviting white South Africans to come to the country but, at the same time, excluding other races.
Speaker 1:And if we don't come out of our own little news bubbles to grasp the full context of what's going on, we could easily be persuaded one way or another.
Speaker 1:You know, of course, again, like you know, just like you know how we say like, uh, you know racism, and then there's the reverse racism right and and how, and if we're not careful, we don't get the full context, the full picture picture. We'll be operating under a false narrative and we'll lose years of our life hating other people, walking around and missing disinformation. And this is where we just, man, we really need to get people to understand the gravity of this current time and people need to really understand the importance of this current time. And people need to really understand the importance of this time. I know, like we're in february, we're black history month, man, you know, uh, you know, people just need to understand that it's more than just a calendar observance, so to speak, but it's a celebration of resilience, innovation and the endurance spirit of a people man, you know, that has often been marginalized, you know. So, man, it's just we come out of our bubbles and get the full picture. That'll be the beginning of beginning of the understanding man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know there's so that so polarizing when it doesn't need to be polarizing. I guess, um, I mean, we were talking a little bit before we we went on here that, um, black history month. I know, like in circles that I'm in, you know, some of the working class white white guys I work with, I've heard comments like you know, why do we have to have a black history month? Why do we have to have a Black History Month? Why do we have to have women's blah, blah, blah? When's going to be the white man's history? Or, you know, white history month? And it's always.
Speaker 2:It's so just ignorant, I guess, and so biased against recognizing that. Dude, like, every month is White History Month, you know. I mean, we just, you know, regularly celebrate look at what us white people did, you know, and we don't think about you know how that happened. It's almost like we're a nation of salesmen. You know salesmen in most companies bring in most of the revenue that a company has. You know there may be all other kinds of support. You know agencies or support group people, you know the accounting folks or the it folks or whatever that are supporting them. But the sales guys are bringing in the money, you know. So they have this, you know, thing of like well, we bring in all the money and I just want to kind of step back and say, well, but that's your job, know, that's what you're supposed to do. So that kind of simple recognition about this isn't something special, you know, it's just, it's what you do, it's what you're good at. And we, as white people, want to constantly think that we're special in some way and that when someone else you, you know, a person of color wants to celebrate or have an opportunity to teach, and you know, just reflect on the, the people within their nature, their, their race, you know which I? I honestly don't even like the word race anymore, because it's like if we're all the human race and we got to figure out a way to celebrate diversity without being threatened by it, to celebrate the inclusion of anybody and everybody who wants to be included instead of being threatened by it. So all of this attack on DEI, which is more than just people of color folks. Dei was set up to help the disabled. Dei was set up to be inclusive for women. Dei was set up to be inclusive for all sorts of people that had been marginalized and will now again be marginalized and not have equal footing with white guys.
Speaker 2:And you know all this nonsense about. You know well, you know white guys aren't getting jobs because you know they're just choosing these other people because you know they're black or they're. You know white guys aren't getting jobs because you know they're just choosing these other people because you know they're black or they're. You know because they're, you know, deficient in some way. It's like no, that's not how it works. You know you're saying stupid stuff without even understanding how the hiring process works.
Speaker 2:What it's really about is, if there are two people of equal opportunity or equal ability, skill level or even you know a better skill level, that the person that has that better skill level is going to have the opportunity for the job. You shouldn't have to say you know well, you're going to get this job because you're white. Nor should you be saying you're going to get this job because you're black or you're a woman or you're gay. That's not the point. The point is to have everybody on an equal playing field so that it doesn't matter whether you're black or you're gay or whatever. You're just going to be the best person for the job. And the reality is we have. We've got to face up to the folk that, as white folks in America, we have had the advantage for way, way too long. We have gotten jobs because we're white.
Speaker 2:And if you don't believe that, if you don't understand that, open up some history books and look at the 40s and the 50s in this country, because that's recent enough to say, you know, that was my mom and my dad or something right. It's such a weird thing that a while back I learned about black, some black history. I, you know, I'm by far not an expert in it, but just realizing the African continent and the, the, the culture that was there, that black people were just stolen from, that were just kidnapped from, and can you imagine anybody out there? That's why can you imagine being out at the grocery store or the mall or whatever, and then all of a sudden, somebody just shows up and just takes you. You know, because you look like you're a strong, strapping young lad or whatever, we're going to take you because we need help at our whatever. And they take you, you know, thousands of miles away, in a, in a vessel that you can't possibly even imagine having access to, and they just put you to work. And now you're here, this is it. I mean, think about it that in terms of what that was.
Speaker 2:And then these weren't just people that were sitting around in you know, I don't know, some hovel somewhere, or you know just, you know doing nothing but you know, sitting around and picking their nails and whatever. These were people with a rich, vibrant culture. These were people with families, with kids that they probably never saw again. You know, these were people that were, you know, living lives that were meaningful, living lives that were meaningful, and we just pulled it off. Now, you know, know, we don't have to just focus on that, but then, in spite of that, in spite of that history, look at what black people have accomplished in this country.
Speaker 2:Look at, you know, look at the, the sports figures that you idolize. Look at the, the entertainers that you, you idolize. Look at the people that, in general, are really seriously successful, brilliant people, watch, hidden Figures. If you want to know the incredible intelligence of some of these people, were they intelligent because they were black? No, but they were intelligent and did significant things and they were black. That's part, you know, we're not. That's part of the problem. As white people, we try to say, well, we're really good because we're white. I mean, white is somehow better than black. No, no, it's not. It's just not. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I'm out of the soapbox. I can't. No, no, brother, and you made some great points, man, Again, because again we really have to confront the attempt of changing the narrative of the country. Man, you know, of course, when we talk about black history, what blacks have done in the shaping of America, man, that the accomplishments and achievements of black people are trying to be minimalized, man, that the accomplishments and achievements of black people are trying to be minimalized, man, they're being minimalized. That way you can kind of almost like you minimalize, minimalize the history. And then, of course, you say, oh, slavery, people, they wanted to be a slave. No, we didn't. You know. Then it's like you know, right, you know the all these different things that have so much better off as slaves.
Speaker 2:You know, there's so much.
Speaker 1:And of course, of course it's not. When we talk about black history and those things, it ain't just about celebrating the painful struggle and all those things, but, yes, it's about celebrating the brilliance, man, the contributions of black America in black Americans, in arts, man, uh, science, all these different things. There are so many things that black people have done to actually, you know, shape the American culture that people want to erase. Man, they simply want to erase and, of course, but we got to understand and we have to fight and know that of course we have to call these things out so that there's an understanding of our past. For we have to call these things out so that there's an understanding of our past. We have to understand our past better to live a life that's going to be more equitable, that's going to have more justice, that's going to have more empowerment. We have to continue to educate and just make people aware that, hey, this is not a one-sided thing, but it's a both sides. Of course, america's wealth was built on the free labor of black people and but, again, people want to erase that, you know. They want to take it out of the textbooks, they want to take it out of all the popular narratives, you know, and of course it's just we have to fight to maintain a history so like, and then you know like it's to see how the reverse happens.
Speaker 1:It's like where we simply try to point out the achievements and, uh, innovations of in this and just basically the pain and struggles of what black people have done and everything that has happened in the course of this country.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like when we point these things out, it's like, oh, you're trying to guilt trip us, and it's like, no, we're not things out. It's like, oh, you're trying to guilt trip us, and it's like, no, we're not trying to guilt trip you. It's simply that, hey, we are trying to just let's get the facts straight on why the systemic and systematic things that are happening in all the various institutions as far as education, medical, criminal justice, economic why these things happen, and let's talk about the unfair advantage that has been given. But now let's talk about how can we make things more equitable, of course, remember we were talking about this before. What you do? You minimize the history of a people, you marginalize them, you create laws against them and then you agitate them into breaking that law so you can throw them in jail, just like when slavery was abolished, right, you know of course what they do.
Speaker 1:They created some laws. Hey, you got caught jaywalking. You ended up on a chain game for 10 years If you, if you, if they thought you were looking at a white woman, you got thrown in jail for X amount of years. So it's just like all these systemic and systematic things that have continuously happened over the course of this history. We point them out and then you get guilt tripped or they want to say it's reverse racism. Because you're pointing these things out and again, you know and it's not about Not guilting anyone into anything is just acknowledging the fact that black people, brown people, all people of color, have all, have contributed to the economic growth of this country, but the economic gains have not been equally dispersed, so to speak.
Speaker 1:And so it's like, when we point these things out, you know, you know we talk about. You know a lot of inventions that black people have created. You know we talk about. You know a lot of inventions that black people have created. They'll never get recognition for them because they just happen to be the assistant in the lab that put the thing in place to make the light bulb work, or you know, I mean it's so's and things like that that talked about the abolition of slavery and all those different things and stood up for women's rights A lot of these things that black people fight for. It ain't even just for black people, it's for everybody. The Civil Rights Act included women, not just black women, but all women. Again, it's like we could never just fight for ourselves. We had to. It always has to be a collective in order to get a small piece of what you've earned. You know and you know, and this is where we have to just really give clarity and understanding education. That way, these false narratives are crushed.
Speaker 2:You talked about. You know you try and make us feel guilty in and that I know that is a prevalent thing and that I know that is a prevalent thing we would rather not, you know, as white folk. It is an inconvenient truth to have to face what white people have done. What I had to do and check me on this, brother, if I'm wrong what I had to do was to get past that of feeling like people were trying to make me feel guilty and think about how horrible this is, that people can do this to people, and to me that was kind of like the key to open up the whole door of compassion and just profound sorrow over what you know, that old thing, man's inhumanity to man right, and one of the stories that just kicked me in the head and made me recognize just the depths of the evil I translate it to there's a scripture in Jeremiah 17.8. It says the heart. The heart, not black hearts, white hearts. The heart is deceitful, above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it? Desperately wicked. When I think of desperately wicked, it's like you know, our heart is so wicked that it's like hanging on to the edge of a cliff by its fingernails going. No, no, I'm not going to give it now, give it now. Or the like gaffy duck with all the you know gold one, you know, get away, get away, you know.
Speaker 2:But then I, one of the things I ran across when I, when I went through, uh, black history month, the justified anger class this year in madison, was the story of emmett till. And if you guys don't know, anyone listening, don't know about Emmett Till, look it up, because it is an incredible story of what life has been like for black people in our country up until very recent time. And just a real quick synopsis Emmett Till was a 14-year-old kid. He was abducted. He had been, I believe, in Chicago and went down visiting some family or whatnot in Mississippi in 1955. He was accused of offending a white woman, a Carolyn Bryant, in her family's grocery store. As I remember, he was accused of whistling at her. Okay, and it was, you know. She told this story to other people and later on in life it actually came out that that really hadn't happened. But anyways, she accused that and he was kidnapped. He was hung, he was, I believe, set on fire.
Speaker 2:I mean there's just horrible mutilation of this kid who had done nothing wrong, absolutely nothing wrong, except be in Mississippi that day, and that time was essentially what killed him, if you will, and then just the nature of human beings. But the most remarkable thing about that in my brain was when they finally found him, he was so badly decomposed there are pictures of him in his casket that it's barely recognizable as a human being, that it's barely recognizable as a human being. He had been so horribly disfigured by all the things that they did to not just kill the kid but to decimate him and his mother. His mother made the decision that she wanted his funeral to be an open casket because she wanted people to see clearly what had happened, what had been done to her son. And I was already, like, mind blown by the profundity of the hatred and cruelty and wickedness of that act. And not forget the fact that it was white guys. Okay, forget the fact that it was white guys. Okay, those were people that did this to a young man who they had no evidence really, besides some woman, that maybe she had a bad day or she doesn't like the look of him or she doesn't like black kids or something. So she makes a statement and triggers a fire, triggers a fire immediately.
Speaker 2:That resulted in that. Not only is that an incredible testimony to the wickedness of people, people okay, forget about the white, black people A bunch of guys did that to another person, okay. But then the mom a loving mom, a mom who's raised that kid since a little baby, loving mom, a mom who's raised that kid since a little baby, you know makes a decision that her poor, precious little kid, who was 14 and had his whole life ahead of him, instead of wanting to just remember him as he was or you know, try to celebrate what he was and you know what a sweet kid he was. Because all you, because all tales of him, all stories of him, he was a really nice kid. She chose to have everyone see him as what he had become as a result of all that hate. He was like a beacon. This is hate, this is anger, this is what we are, what we have become, and that was profoundly important.
Speaker 2:In kind of one of the festering things to get the civil rights movement going was we had to. Enough of us white folk got woke. There's another. Let's get people really going with words that they hate right now. That got enough of us going to realize that.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, oh my God, oh my Lord, how could anyone do that to anyone? How I can't even look. I mean most people. You see the lines of people coming through that funeral and looking, and you know women are just like breaking down, you know, and just like sobbing. And you know a lot of them are just they can't, they like take one glance and they have to look away because it was so awful. And you know a lot of the men are walking by and looking and just like thinking about their own stuff that's going on in their lives. And you know, you know what's it going to take, lord, you know I, I'm, I. If that was a, a white kid, I I've shuddered to think, you know they would have been arming up with every rifle and gun and just marching on down to every white person indiscriminately, just shooting them. You know, I mean why. You know that's the kind of anger Right, and I sometimes think honestly that that's part of this whole equation is that white people don't want black history to happen, because they really they want to just keep it down happen, because they really they want to just keep it down and they're, they're, I think they're really afraid ultimately that black folks are going to one day wake up and really it's going to be like the black panthers on steroids, you know, and they're just going to have to.
Speaker 2:You better run for the hills, because they're just taking you. They're not going to ask any questions whatsoever. If you're white, you're dead. Um, you know, and I have a hard time saying don't do it. Don't do it, antoine, don't do it, please, don't do that. I'm a poor white guy, you know. But it's totally understandable, because look at what we do to each other.
Speaker 2:So do we want to go there, folks, america, world? Do we want to go there and continue that madness, or do we want to do something, make some inches forward in the process that DEI gave us a chance to do? No, we're now taking. Lgbtq has just been shortened now to LGB, so any government site that has anything to do with government agencies and employment, they can have LGB, but TQ plus have to all go away. Now those have just been taken off because there are too many letters.
Speaker 2:So what are we doing with blacks? We're now saying that you can't celebrate Black History Month If you're in any kind of government or military agency. We can't have any of those celebrations that celebrate groups of people based on color, you know whatever. And I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's like if we would just stop all this nonsense and say look at what people do to people. Is this okay? Is this okay? Is this who we want to be? Or do we believe? Are we willing to put our money where our mouth is, put our noses to the grindstone and say, no, we can. We must be better, because otherwise you might as well just push the button now, folks, nato, give in. You know, just launch the missiles and your submarines, get them going, let's just take it all out. And you know, the next war can be fought, after that one, with sticks and stones. And you know whatever. Maybe we'll have a chance to get it right next time, or maybe we'll just wipe out human civilization. And if this is all we can be, I mean, that's not such a bad thing, because I'm ready to come Lord, I'm ready for the great beyond, because we can't learn if we can't, if we're not willing to learn. Man.
Speaker 1:Man, yeah, sorry about we're not willing to learn man. Man, yeah, sorry about that I got. No, no, it's all good, brother, man, I, I love it. Man and and you know, when you were talking about the story emmett till, you know, course of people, uh, and again, those are the very stories that you know some people don't want told because, uh, let's just be. You know 100 with it. You know that thing had been going on long before emmett till.
Speaker 1:It just took a woman from a black woman from chicago that wanted justice for her child. You know, just think about the people that were living in that area. How many times has it happened? You think about, you know, like, say, billy holiday's song, strange fruit. They were like, oh, you can't play this, you can't. You know, talk about black people hanging from trees. You know, you walk down a road and all that's all you. You drive down a road and that's all you saw was black people hanging from trees. You couldn't sing about that, you know.
Speaker 1:And it's just like those things are, like they're trying to be minimalized and whitewashed and and and again it's like's like when we talk about the prejudices of that time again, the brutal reality of slavery, the brutal reality of the suppression of people's voices, the oppression of people as a Black people as a whole know they don't want that narrative told and you know, of course, no, like we got all these? Uh, you know we have to. Yes, there's a racism in all the educational structures, health care, uh, criminal justice, economic structure, but the cultural part of things. That's why they continuously try to some white people. They continuously try to some white people. They continuously try to distort history and that way they can continually perpetuate the reason for their. They say, oh, they're not equal to us because they don't learn as much, they don't do this as well, not knowing, when you take the whole thing in a whole historical context, that black people weren't allowed to learn how to read. To a certain point people had to sneak to learn how to read, you know, and it's like those kinds of things like, of course, um, they say, oh, our brains, uh, don't act, operate the same as a white brain, a white male brain, and uh, oh, like, uh, we see this stuff. When the wildfires and things like that was uh, breaking off, you know they were like it. It takes a white male If you want something done right, it takes a white male to do it. And then again it's just those things that they're implanting in the young white male mind. No, just again, just perpetuating the white supremacy man. And but we got to kill it at its roots, at the institutional roots, at the cultural roots. And just again because when you minimize the achievements and accomplishments of black people, you can just continuously try to rationalize the discrimination that's currently taking place.
Speaker 1:You know, of course, in this thing has been going on since long before Emmett Till. But again, they call people woke. Because you know, like, say a young white male, young white female says you know what? I want to learn history, I want to get a better understanding of how things work. You know, of course, like, say me being a black male talking to you as a older white male, well, you and I have conversation. I love when you say you know what, I'm going to go check that out, I'm going gonna go look that up. And that's what is being, that is what's happening right now.
Speaker 1:You know, like, say, these young black men and women, or like in our age range or whatever, are talking to young white men and young white men and women saying, hey, this is what has happened, go look this stuff up for yourself.
Speaker 1:And so now the young white male and young white female are saying you know what? Wow, this was wrong. So you mean to tell me that my no pop pop, my great grandpop, was actually a part of this, or whatever the case may be. And the thing is and again, it's not to guilt, is to bring to light. And then, that way, when we bring the thing to light because it ain't about guilting, it's not about you know all of these, it's just, hey, we need to bring those things to the forefront. So there's a better understanding of how we came to this inequitable situation.
Speaker 1:And now it's like OK, now that we acknowledge that there was a redlining and housing discrimination, racial discrimination, voter suppression, all these different kinds of things that were taking place over the course of history. Now, okay, now that we understand these things, how can we change them? But now, as the young white female, young white male starts to stand up and come into a place of allyship, they want to actually guilt them into saying what's wrong with you? Why are you sticking with those folks? It's like I'll give you an example. You know, in in, uh, in, no, we as a ministry, a young white lady, uh, probably in her uh mid twenties a couple of years ago, came to my wife and I. She was like hey, we, we love how y'all preach, we love that y'all teach the word of God, you know, in its simplicity but in its wholeness. And she was like but unfortunately I can't come to y'all church because my granddad will cut me off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And but. But do you see that? That? That's the noose around the young white person's neck is like, hey, I don't want to lose my inheritance If I say granddad is wrong in his way of thinking'll get cut off, and that's that is, uh, keeping people under the thumb, keeping history under the thumb, keeping, uh, those I'll use the word woke we want to keep woke people under the thumb.
Speaker 1:But also you keep black people as a whole under the thumb by just again, continuously, the minimalization and, uh, just the, the exclusion and all these different things of black culture, or even the contribution to what black people have done to American society as a whole. You minimalize it and then you say, hey, there's no reason for them, and that's why we see this erasure campaign coming forth. So, you know, it's just really just bringing things to light. That's what Black History Month is all about, man. It's not necessarily about just, you know, talking about the pain and the struggle, man, but it's also about celebrating the brilliance, the creativity, the innovation and, you know, celebrating what has been done by Black people in science, education, you know, politics, all these different things, just trying to crush the narratives of what has been going on over the centuries, man, you know we have to go back to. Like, when we talk about Black History Month, you know we got to go back to the origin of it, you know. You know Carter Woodson, you know, in the 1920s and 30s he was like, hey, you know, we need to dedicate time to the study of the rich and often suppressed history of African-Americans. So it started out as a Negro History Week, yeah, and then. But it was expanded to a month long celebration, man reclaiming history, man, you know, and it was just a way to counteract centuries of exclusion and just kind of the reformation that black Americansicans are not just, we're not just in the side view of things, but we have been mainstream since, ben, I mean far as, again, the building of wealth by the free labor on our backs, to even accomplishments in science and medicine and all these different things, and so it's just, uh, again, they want a lot of people want to wipe the history out. They want to, they want to wipe history clean.
Speaker 1:And then, of course now, of course, like I know, when you and I talk, I just say it out loud, no, it's like I know this pastor. His name is John Bevere. He made a historic teaching on, called the bait of Satan. And of course, basically in one of his teachings, one of the lessons, he says the church is under attack by the church. And so we see that present day, because now you got, you know, faith deconstruction. People are literally walking away from faith because they're saying, hey, they'd rather follow this president, because they know that you can't say you love God and hate people. So they'd rather just say, you know, I walk away from God so I can justify my hate. But also he was saying how, you know, the church is under attack by other, you know, by the church. And now we got this other group.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you heard of it, but if you get a chance, read up on these people, man. They are some, they some. It's called the New Apostolic Reformation N-A-R. And these people they are saying they want to bring about God's judgment by going against his very word. They want to do things to actually perpetuate the Bible. Coming into these suppressive and oppressive tactics, things that the Bible says goes against the knowledge of God. No, he says righteousness and justice is the foundation of my throne, right? So they want to create injustices. They want to do things that tip the scales. You know what God say. Unbalanced scales are an abomination to me.
Speaker 1:So it's just all these different things that are happening by church people and there's, and there are so many prominent pastors in this country that are actually supporting this, and then they it's like you try to. Oh well, I don't support what he does, but I love what. I love his policy, and it's like are you actually reading this policy? I think you need to come out of your news bubble and see exactly what he's doing because, like right now, he has with this, uh with the usa, with, with that being stripped away. I don't think they understand the importance of what they're doing, but understanding that, hey, they shot off the farmers in this country. They are now looking. If you go on, uh, some uh social media platforms, you have these uh young white farmers, no, with gofundmes. And they won't mention the fact they know where this thing came from, but they won't. They won't speak against it again.
Speaker 1:It's like remember how we were saying people would rather just suffer in silence and die rather than say they were wrong. And that's where we are right now. It's like a person refused to say hey, I was wrong about my way of thinking, I was wrong in my vote, I was wrong in my perception, I was wrong in my speech, I was wrong in my behavior. But now I want to fix that. But it's like the pride of people and then, of course, the pressure of other people within their groups saying like, no, you are white, you are strong, you are no, you have privilege, you have this, you have that. And it's like with these young white people they're saying I don't see it that way, but they're getting guilted or threatened into certain ways to actually fall in line, and some will fall in line, some will actually continue on with their allyship.
Speaker 1:But you know, at the end of the day, you know it's like we have to include in the history, it has to be put front and center the, the, the. We have the in front and center. We have to include the narratives. We have the, the right narratives of all the accomplishments and the innovation and all these different things, the creativity, the perseverance, and that way we can gain a complete picture of how society has been formed and and when. We can get to that point where we say you know what? I'm gonna step out of myself, I'm gonna look through, I'm gonna look at another human being through the eyes of God, or I'm going to look at another, I'm going to try to see things from their point of view, or I'm going to put myself in their shoes.
Speaker 1:And when we get more and more people doing that thing, you know, we understand the historical roots of, you know, systematic and systemic and systematic racism and oppression, and it allows us to engage more thoroughly in, you know, contemplating solutions.
Speaker 1:You know, and that's what that's where we are, man, uh, we have to really just uh, you know, get to a point where we just say, hey, you know what, uh, I was wrong, my, because even with you and I, you know, it's like I'll say, hey, my perception was wrong, I was off, I was wrong. You know what I'm saying. And that's where we've got to get to the point of being. And when we continuously open the doors, like this podcast, I strongly believe that those walls will come down. Of course, a lot of people are saying that, well, actually, this is what I see with my own eyes. This is again, this is my point of view, antoine Hallman senior's point of view. Rather than give people equal rights, you'd rather burn this whole thing down, this United States of America, experiment, know experiment. They'd rather burn it down than give people what is due.
Speaker 2:Well, like what was said to Benjamin Franklin after the Constitution had been ratified, I believe. So early 1800s came out after the vote was had and was asked on the street so are we a monarchy or a republic? And he said a republic, if you can keep it. So there's a quote all the time we've been talking about history and there's a quote that gets kind of misquoted quite a bit, but it comes from a 1905 book published by a man called George Satanyana. It's Spanish, I'm sorry, I don't know, but the book was called the Life of Reason, or the Phases of Human Progress, and the 12th chapter of that book there's a chapter named the Flux and Constancy in Human Nature, and in that there is this phrase those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Speaker 2:Think about that for a second. We have different paraphrases of that, and people think it's Edmund Burke, sometimes people say it's Winston Churchill. But George Santanyana, from 1905, came up with that idea. And that's exactly what is happening right now, when we try to, you know, just deny the fact that there's, you know, an, even a need for Black History Month, when we're pulling the Constitution from the whitehousegov website. You know, even a need for Black History Month when we're pulling the Constitution from the whitehousegov website, you know, and who knows where else it'll get pulled from. You know, but the more that we, you know, indoctrinate people and get them to just forget about that stuff, that's not important. What's important is now the minute you do that, the minute you start to make the past and the horrors and the wonders of the past something that you cannot remember, you're condemned to repeating it.
Speaker 1:What does the Bible say? I believe it's Ecclesiastes 1.9. What was done will be done again. Yeah, and there's nothing new under the sun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I guess those of you that are listening, those of you that are watching this I mean there's not a whole lot of us you know I look at the numbers and you know we've got a couple thousand. You know downloads since the beginning of this whole thing, which is great, you know I mean there's downloads from all over the country and you know I mean there's downloads from all over the country and you know I'm just looking at the other day and you know there's Germany and the Philippines and you know Asia. I mean there are folks all over the world, which is great, because you know all it ultimately takes is a small group of people to kind of catch the fire, and you know God can use the movement. But I just ask you to think about remembering.
Speaker 2:Remember the history that is celebrated, remember it with all of us. Remember the history that's celebrated in Black History Month because it's rich, it's vibrant and it's a story of human survival, of humans overcoming incredible resistance and incredible hardships and yet still validating their right to be human beings and to be included in the schema of humanity and the history of humanity. Remember and then don't be afraid to face the awfulness of who we can be, and have been, as white people, as people in general. Okay, if you want to take the white thing out of it, that makes you feel better. If you're, you know I don't want to feel guilty for being white. Okay, you know what you want to feel guilty about being a human being, being a human being as a Christian, I have to feel some sense of. Because of me, christ died. Because of me, a man had to hang himself on a cross for, you know, three hours and die so that our sins could be forgiven. And that's a wild thing. We can get into that a whole other time.
Speaker 2:But remember, remember. Remember, because remembrance is where we celebrate what was and what has come and what will be. So, by remembering that past, that gives us the fuel to understand today. And understanding today then gives you the hope and the determination to be better tomorrow. It's like, you know, parenting or anything that's important in life. You know you have to recognize in a relationship, right, men and women that are out there married, or men and men that are married, whatever. You have to, at points in a relationship, recognize the things that you did wrong in the past so that you can see how they've affected the present and then make commitments within the present to have the future be better. It's a continuum. You strip one of those things out and say you know ah the past is past.
Speaker 2:Why do I have to keep going back to the past all the time? Why do I have to keep bringing that up? Well, because we haven't gotten past it yet. Up Well, because we haven't gotten past it yet. You know, we haven't gotten past it yet. I do that all the time. My poor wife, after almost 39 years of marriage, has to keep reminding me that we haven't gotten past this yet, this thing that you know, you still don't communicate when you need to communicate. When are you going to communicate, don't you see?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I see it.
Speaker 1:Why do you keep bringing that?
Speaker 2:up Because we haven't gotten past it yet. So it's really simple. So why do we have to have Black History Month? Why do we have to have any history? Because we haven't gotten past it yet. We haven't, so let's get there it is, let's, let's celebrate it.
Speaker 1:So yes, and then when we celebrate, you know, again, we're celebrating the contributions. Uh, we're celebrating the contributions. You know we're talking about the historic memory of the matter. You know, of course we ain't just talking from the brutal realities of slavery to the relentless struggle of civil rights man, it's just emphasizing the path that has to be taken to overcome these things, the tremendous sacrifices that have been made by these Black people for all humanity. Because again, in civil rights and voting rights, those things are all encompassing. It wasn't just for black people, like the 14th Amendment that was not only for birthright citizenship bills, but all people that are naturalized. You know they had all rights available to them under the law.
Speaker 1:And you know, and of course, when we acknowledge all these different things, man it just we have to just take a step back and say, wow, look at all the contributions made, look at uh, no, look at the no, I can't remember the um, it was a movie about the uh gentleman. Uh, he was, uh, he actually was a big part of helping with the first open heart. I want to say John Haley or Haley or something like that, but but anyway, he's just like it was a movie about it. Most deaf played the guy, but I wish I could bring that, but it was like he was. He was one of the first open heart surgeons, man and he actually he the guy was trying to create it, but he created a tool that made it work. The guy was trying to create it, but he created a tool that made it work, and so it was just celebrating those contributions to history that reshape American society, those things that again, they need to be celebrated. You know, of course, again, if you take away, if you minimize the contribution, you can minimalize and marginalize the history and you change and control the narrative. And then you again, you can say whatever you want in the year 2050, 2060, you can say whatever again, and even just simple, as like right now.
Speaker 1:Again, a lot of people may not even know this, but you know again. But again we're giving white South Africans amnesty and refugee status, because they're saying they're being persecuted by black South Africans. And tell me if that makes any sense to you. It does not. But that is the narrative that's being created because again, they want more white people coming into the country and less people of color coming coming into the country, for for we know the purposes and things like that, why they're doing it.
Speaker 1:But again, we just have to point out the history and the significance of all these different events and things in history, you know, from the creation of the 14th amendment to the emancipation Proclamation, to the Civil Rights Act of 64, to the Civil Rights Act of 65, all these various things that have happened. And, of course, we talk about all the affirmative action policies since the 1960s on, and it's always been about just trying to be equal, trying to be fair. It ain't about trying to, it is not about exaltation, it's not about pointing out this or that. Well, it is because we got to point out the wrong in order to embrace them, to have the correct narrative. But it ain't, it ain't about guilt tripping. It's simply about saying, hey, this is how we got to this point, simply about saying, hey, this is how we got to this point. You know, it just, it just points out the systemic and systematic racism, discrimination and all those things, and again, across the spectrum of the institutions in this country. And again, it just again.
Speaker 1:But also celebrating Black History Month, man, it just kind of just. I, I'm just going to say it, it just it's, it's, it's, it's a big focal point in the ongoing fight against white supremacy. Man, you know again, racism, you know it ain't just a matter of individual presidents, it's about the embedded, this embedded in the very structures of our institutions. And you know, and again, when people can control the narrative, they can. If they control the history, they can control the narrative. But you know, and again, that's why we have to press on with, you know, activism and allyship. You know, amplifying our voices, you know, like the voice of hate is crying out loud right now, the voice of love has to shout even louder, you know.
Speaker 1:And of course, again, they want to erase things, they want to rewrite history, they want to downplay black contribution, they want to suppress the narrative of resistance. I'm trying to speak and not preach, but these things, these things are real, they're present and we just, and again, calling things out is not to guilt anyone, but it's calling shining light in dark places. Amen. Baldwin, I mean Frederick Douglass, james Baldwin, I mean Thurgood Marshall, martin Luther King, malcolm X, maya Angelou, just all these people that have made these historic contributions not just to Black America but America as a whole.
Speaker 1:You know that's where we Humanity as a whole, goodness gracious, exactly, humanity as a whole. And that's what we have to really when it comes to Black history and remembering everything that encompasses the education, the cultural impact of Black people had on the world, like you just said, you know, it's about preserving the right narrative of the country, and when we can really just let the word of God or just let the truth be held up to our face like a mirror and we can acknowledge that truth, the quicker we can get past this. But again, it's just a matter of saying, hey, this was wrong. A person ain't got to say I was wrong. Just say hey, yeah, that is wrong. What can I do to steer the ship? Now? You know what I mean, right? What part can I place in it Exactly?
Speaker 2:And then we'll start to reshape the nation and go forward, and that's the way it is, folks. Oh, we've tried to take apart a pretty thick onion and just take a little bit of one layer off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is like a part, this is like a hundred part series. Right here, man, right right it is.
Speaker 2:So tune in, go get your sleeping bag and we'll just keep talking it out. We've got other things to do, but we will come back to this and I hope it just gets the conversation going. You know, think about it. It's okay to disagree. It's okay to have a different point of view. It's okay to have a different frame of reference.
Speaker 1:Notice how I wove that in it's the weed.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, so I'm so special. Anyways, think about it, just think about it. Remember. You know, there's just so much power in the history and if we fail to remember, if we fail to confront it, we are condemned to repeat it. And that condemnation means we're just going to be stuck in an endless loop. And if you've done any computer programming, you know that what happens when a program gets stuck in an endless loop? That program becomes absolutely useless.
Speaker 1:So break the loop, okay, and just one last thing for me, brother, if you don't mind. Just I'm strongly encouraging people to come out of their own news bubble to really see what is going on. Because, of course, you know, if you, I like, I say I watch Fox news, I watch Newsmax, I see it all that way, I know what I need to be be praying for, but it's the same time, uh, you know, it's like you see these talking points of people and it's like, wow, that's not true. And so it's just like we just encourage people. Let's encourage people to come out of their news bubble because again, we got the shining hand. Look at what I'm doing with this hand by with this hand is doing something really sinister. So come out of your bubble, have an open mind and embrace truth. And you know cause, a fact can be swayed either way, you know, but just get the fact and the truth.
Speaker 2:Right, well, and be sure that you, I mean and that works on the other side too, right, if you're listening to CNN and MSNBC, and you know the, the, the things of that nature, the sources of that nature, you know, listen to Fox News too. You know it doesn't have to be about just condemning the other as much as it's seeking to understand what's at root here. What, why is? You know, this is the way that this event was seen by this side of the equation and this is the way that same event was seen by this side of the equation. This is the way that same event was seen by this side of the equation. It's like, you know, but the building is burning. You know, we're seeing different sides of that building being burned down.
Speaker 2:At some point we're gonna have to say, um, guys, would you pick up a pail and would you guys go get a hose and let's take the burning down? Okay, can we do that? Because I see that you've got some really good hoses here and I see you guys are particularly good with your buckets. Let's just work together and take this fire down, shall we? But we're not going to be able to do that if we say you, morons and your buckets while you retard and your hoses. You know it's just come on, really Give me a break. Oh, and I used the word retard again. I used it again. You're not supposed to use that word. I'm sorry. I grew up in the 60s, it was a word back then and you know I remember. Anyways, my name is Raul Rush and I'm part of one half of Frame of Reference Coming Together. This guy across the screen from me is another one, right? What's?
Speaker 1:your name again, sir Antoine.
Speaker 2:Holman, sr. Antoine Holman. Antoine Holman Sr. Antoine Holman. Antoine Holman that's a really famous name, I think I want to remember that name.
Speaker 1:I pray that the Lord write that name, write that signature on this earth.
Speaker 2:In a book too. It would be nice if you got a place and they actually could define. I'm sorry, there is no table for you, antoine. I'm sorry, apparently is no table for you, antoine. I'm sorry, apparently your reservation was taken, so no, no, it's only one of him. Yeah, you don't get to argue with that. I'm sorry. Anywho, thanks all for joining us. Hope that this gets the conversation going some more, because we need to be talking about this. Amen, amen, god bless. See you, bro.
