Frame of Reference - Coming Together
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Coming Together
Bridge of Hate: The Evandale Incident
The recent neo-Nazi incident in Evaondale, Ohio, shocked many and has raised critical conversations about the current state of race relations in America. As a group of white supremacists displayed their flags strategically across a bridge leading into a primarily Black neighborhood, the community was left grappling with fear and outrage. This episode of our podcast unpacks the layers of this alarming event, observing the immediate impacts on families, especially the children who saw these symbols of hate.
We dive deep into the discussions surrounding the police response, examining whether their actions equated to a failure of duty when community trust is vital. Our conversation also touches on broader themes such as the concept of white fragility—how defensiveness among white individuals stifles conversations about racism and complicity. By not addressing these issues head-on, we miss opportunities for critical growth, empathy, and necessary advocacy.
Furthermore, we emphasize the significance of collective action. In times of visible hate, communities must rally together, fostering a united front against white supremacy while encouraging allyship and open conversations. This insightful episode challenges listeners to reflect on their roles in advocating for racial justice and supporting marginalized communities. Let’s engage authentically in discussions about race, recognizing the power of allyship and the strength of our voices when united against hate. Be part of the movement for change—subscribe, share, and join us in advocating for a just future.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
and now testing one, two, three testing. Okay, we're good there.
Speaker 2:And testing one, two, three looks good.
Speaker 1:There we go ready, hit it, let's have it. Well, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. So how's it going there? People listening. We have uh folks in australia that have been welcome to the community of of uh frame of reference coming together. I'm raul brush, that's our raw like raul, or as my friend antoine hallman, senior here, calls me, I am the fresh la brush.
Speaker 2:So all the fresh the brush, I think.
Speaker 1:I think I'm gonna have to just put that on a shirt or something. You're in the presence of the fresh.
Speaker 2:LaBresh. You know what man? I'm going to get you a T-shirt made just with Raul the fresh LaBresh, and it's going to be in B-boy style, like an 80s breakdancing graffiti man.
Speaker 1:I got you on that. I can see all the brothers going what's with that man Dude? We got some weird white bread going on down there, man, so okay.
Speaker 2:I got you on that and I'm going to take a picture. Right by your side with it on man.
Speaker 1:I got you on that. I love that. This has just been a great day so far. I mean, we're just all of a sudden I'm finding out there's all these blessings coming down from heaven, so Antoine how you doing, man.
Speaker 2:Man, all is well, man, I just give God glory for the day and just life, health and strength, and I just thank him for another day. Man, that's where I'm at Just giving him glory, man. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so those of you that are listening or maybe even watching the podcast now that we're trying to record it, but we have kind of a we have a real impromptu kind of relationship, right, it's not like we've got a production crew in the background. We'd like to, but we don't have a production group in the background that's going. You know, okay, we're going to resource, we'll do this, blah, blah, blah, write a bunch of notes. You know, like the John Sturtz of the world, because there's all these people executive producers, producers that are doing all this legwork. So all the star has to do is show up and, you know, be aware of things and be able to be intelligent enough to grapple with things. But a lot of that legwork is done. Well, you know, we're a bunch of homeschool kids here and just trying to make by with what we can. So Antoine and I usually just have a text or two to each other during the course of the week and say, hey, what do you?
Speaker 1:want to talk about this week. It's like I don't know about pizza, you know, no, we talked about pizza six months ago, you know whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, because it's like I love that man, it's like so anybody out there listening, hey, we love your sponsorship, you know. And of course, to get that production crew in the background and just but also just again we want to make this more structured and just make it better for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, and so the top, the subject today, came up as a topic. That was something like seven o'clock this morning. I get a text from antron and I'm thinking to myself, what are we going to talk about as well? But he sends a note and said, hey brother, can we talk about evandale, ohio? So, and uh, and I'm like, yeah, sure, and he said evandale, you know, and waving white, uh, nazi flags in a in a black neighborhood, uh, and I'm what? So I had not heard of the thing at all. So of course I felt like a stupid white guy, not uncommon for me.
Speaker 1:But you know, in in this case I'm like, why do I not even know anything about this? I started to do a research, like Googling it, just on Evansdale Ohio. I figured you know it would come up right away. No, it's like welcome to Evansdale Ohio, home of the beautiful people. You know it's all that kind of nonsense. But then, if I put Evansdale and Nazis, then there were multiple news reports and TV things that had been done at the time. Come to find out this is something that just happened in early February, where and if you don't mind, I'll just give my quick of. It is the so apparently a small group of Nazis neo-Nazis as they're calling themselves, I guess show up on this bridge and over a pass in between Evansdale and and is it Lincoln Heights that's?
Speaker 2:Lincoln Heights.
Speaker 1:Lincoln Heights. So Lincoln Heights is a historically black neighborhood. That's been a black neighborhood since the 20s, right A suburb of Cincinnati, yep, choosing that bridge. That's right in between Avondale, which is more of a, you know, a white class, I guess, whatever you want to call it, kind of a normal, I think, the both suburbs of Cincinnati, if I was reading that right.
Speaker 1:So here we got this group that decides to put up Nazi flags on the overhash and they show pictures of these guys putting up their flags and they've got like the skull mask thing on where their eyes are. You know, normal scheme X, but then the top of it looks like you know something out of Venom and Spider-Man kind of deal, so really obviously wanting to intimidate people, and another shot of guys like with a semi-automatic rifle, you know. So these were people that were there to really send a message into a black neighborhood. Right, we are here. And the thing that struck me really clearly about it too was the people from the black neighborhood that talked about it said they didn't even know that the Nazis were there. It was their children that came to them and said you know, mom, dad, there's Nazis on the bridge. So of course the parents, as parents are thinking what is going on and they're outraged because the kids are afraid. Who wouldn't be Right? Because the kids are afraid, who wouldn't be right? Who wouldn't be afraid that all of a sudden these guys with these masks show up that have got guns and are putting Nazi flags on the bridge around your neighborhood? Who wouldn't be afraid? So that's kind of just the whole thing, and I didn't have time to look at a lot more of it.
Speaker 1:There was body cam footage that was available to people. There's some issues going on there too, because some of the cops didn't have their body cams on, which is not supposed to happen ever. And there were some. Another guy whose Jeep had gotten the tires slashed on it and he needed help getting back to his Jeep because his service dog was in it, and you know there was a lot of outrage over.
Speaker 1:You know what are you doing? Helping these guys? I don't get it, because one of the officers helped him to get back to his car, you know. So it's just. It's this whole convoluted mess, because these people that you know are exercising their freedom of speech came in a completely, completely stupid and senseless and hateful, hateful way into this neighborhood to upset people and just to show that they could do it. And it's like, you know, trump and Zelensky or something. For goodness sakes, they're sitting there, just you know, shoving their you-know-what in people's faces because they can and you ought to know what a big he-man I am, because I can do this to you and you can't stop me. We gotta we gotta grow up, man.
Speaker 2:We gotta figure out how to get these people back on track, because this is a clockwork orange in a big way you know, yeah, man, yeah, and again it's like, uh, I, this thing is so bothersome because you know, of course, like, uh, you know, this is what uh not related. Again, man, it's a white supremacy man, it's the wrong thing. Out of course, like, historically, you know, like, say, these neo-Nazi groups, kkk, white supremacist groups, they cloak themselves in the First and Second Amendment, right, they say, oh, we got the right to free speech, you know, but again it's like they're that they're just spreading these racist or supremacist ideologies. But the thing is, this is where it becomes a hateful thing, because it's like. Then, of course, like with this incident in mind, of course, the first part of it was the response by the police. Like you said, a lot of them didn't have their body cams on, and then again it was just this oh, they're just here peacefully protesting.
Speaker 2:But you got to look at the context, you got to look at the bigger picture here. Why, like? Because they were trying to relate it to well, when Black Lives Matter protested. Look at where they protested. They went to city and state capitals and things like that. These people went to the doorstep of a black community. You know, things like that. These people went to the doorstep of a black community Black Lives Matter and those other kinds of things. They were protesting systemic racial issues, racial socioeconomic injustices and things like that. These people went to a doorstep of a black community to protest them saying that we are against you Because they could have did this anywhere in the city or the state they chose to go.
Speaker 2:It was it's all about it's provocation, right, you know? Again, it's like you have a marginalized community. You go and provocate, you know, and then, uh, you try to agitate and then, of course and some of these guys are they try to intimidate as well, because some of these white supremacists add guns, but little. I guess a lot of people may forget, just like they forgot, that, oh, a lot of people figured oh, project 2025 doesn't only relate to certain people. The Second Amendment, it relates to black people as well, and so a lot of black people, like they show the neo-Nazis are brandishing their guns, a lot of black people show their guns in the course.
Speaker 2:I guess Ohio is an open carry state or right to carry, or is one of those states Right, and so it's like it kind of again, that could have turned really bad really fast and but again, it was all about the police response and of course, and it's kind of questionable. You know again the whole situation. And of course, and it's kind of questionable, you know again the whole situation. But it's like, why did you choose to do your protest on a doorstep of a black community? And, like you said in your opening, it wouldn't even been known, except for the children.
Speaker 2:Now and again, again this white supremacist intimidation type of thing, look at what it psychologically does to the children.
Speaker 2:Because again, that's where the historical systemic racism it always you hurt the adult or you minimize the accomplishment of the adult, or you put the adult in a threatened, you know you put the adult in a threatening, threatening, threatened state and watch how the children respond, and so, but again, I know it's like you don't fight fire with fire, you don't. You know we don't be overcome by evil, but we overcome evil with good. And of course, even though, let's say, the black residents, they came out and showed their guns to, hey, I just figure, hey, you can have your gun, you just don't have to show it, you can speak. You know we can fight the right way. No, but again, the whole, this was just a incident to provoke that community into something else. You know, again they come with guns, they come waving a flag at the doorstep of a black community, predominantly black community, or it was actually a pretty mixed community. You know when you're talking about Lincoln Heights and Evandale. But again, that choice of location was strictly for provocational reasons.
Speaker 1:I like how you say that. You've said that too before. They, they provocate, they, um, the, the agitate, and then they incarcerate. So, yeah, I think that's such a. I never thought of that before. You said that that's exactly what happens. They provocate, they, you know, agitate, agitate. You know people all riled up because when you see those videos you'll hear those people are agitated. You know the police have got their police line formed around people are agitated and by getting that agitated they're ending up. They know exactly what they're doing. They get those guys so agitated that they end up inciting them to the point of anger, where they do do things that are going to end up regretting, but they have to try to restrain themselves and that just makes it more difficult and then ultimately, if they don't restrain themselves in reaction to this horrible thing, they get incarcerated, right. So and I guess what I'm here to do and what I think this whole podcast is about is, there's another part of that we have to be advocates. You know there's a dire, dire need for people in the center and left to be advocates for no more of this. We got to stop this Because you have a right to speech.
Speaker 1:You have a right for no more of this. We got to stop this. Because you have a right to speech, you have a right, a freedom of speech. You do not have a freedom to lie. People cannot accept that freedom of speech means the freedom to lie. People can't accept that. Because if you accept that my freedom of speech enables me to lie with freedom as well, then what are courts for? Right? Because courts are all about. If you lie in court you're a big, serious trouble. You know that's called contempt. That can put you in jail faster than the crime that you committed that you're there in trial for is to lie when you're in court. So why do we think that our freedom of speech should include freedom to lie?
Speaker 1:And the other part of the equation is we have hate speech laws, right. We have rules that we have established that say you cannot incite violence among people by doing things that are going to make one group of people hate more vehemently another group of people, for an agenda that is usually politically in purpose or some sort of game is involved in making that hate speech. That's not supposed to happen. So we have hate speech laws on there, but they're not enforced. So what are you going to do in a country where the rule of law is both being completely ignored and it's also being stretched, because I think, at the end of the day, there's money to be made. There is money to be made in allowing this stuff to foment. There's money to be made in everything from the people that provide the food services for prisons. I mean, that's a huge.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about something that's high opening? Look at how much money is generated for companies that do nothing but provide the food services for prisons Big, big money, okay. Or is it the money that's made from, you know, advertising on all these shows that love to make a big deal out? Because I can guarantee you Newsmax who's you know Antoine's talking about would be covering these stories completely differently than CNN or MSNBC. But even oh man, msnbc. I can't even think about them without thinking about the hiring and firings that they've been doing lately. You know, two of the people that were people of color, that had shows on MSNBC, were let go all of a sudden, and now Rachel Maddow, who spoke out against it, ended up losing a bunch of her staff. So MSNBC that has this reputation of being so liberal, they fired Joy.
Speaker 1:Reid. Yeah, joy Reid, joy Reid. Thank you, I couldn't think of her and there was another one that hired because joy reed. I remembered her seeing her pod or her uh newscast, especially during, like the elections, because she was the only one really talking about a lot of the issues going on underneath the surface. Um, but there's another. Is it another woman that was also let go that had a? A?
Speaker 2:as well. Well, people that openly, really overly I wouldn't even say overly, but just outwardly criticized Trump that he got fired or let go by, msnbc Joy Reid. Prior to Joy Reid, there was Tiffany Cross, and then there was another black woman that was fired even before her. But also in this current purge of it at MSNBC, katie Fang, who is, you know, I would say, asian descent, a woman of color. She was let go as well, you know.
Speaker 2:But again, the other people still stand and you know you made a great point, you know, just talking about, you know it's going to take advocacy and allyship to really overcome, because, again, what happened in Ohio it's, you know, again, it's a stance on white supremacy and of course, we know the history of it simply is just hey, you know the ideology that white people are superior to all other races, basically, and of course, and that's where we have to really come and make a stance, and then, of course, like you're, you're talking up off camera how you're rereading white fragility, and I think that's a great thing, man, you know. Because again, it's like we have to know as a, as a country, have to know as a, as a country, we are, we don't want to get we. We have to learn to be, get comfortable, being uncomfortable, and that's where we don't want we. And again, that inward look that, look at ourselves. What can I do more? Uh, what can I say? And it's like uh, and again it's like we got to get over fear. You know, of course, uh, like people, like, again, all these things stem from fear, man. You know, of course, these are white supremacists and these are people that are in higher government, they all what is that thing? The way they feel like they're losing the country, well, they feel like the whiteness of the country is going away.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the term exactly. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:It'll come back to me yeah yeah, yeah, but anyway, it's just like they feel like they're losing the country. They feel like, oh, and so now we see these things being openly done in this current government. You know, of course, you know, you see it, you know and it's plain as day. But you know, when we're talking about advocacy, right, you know it's going to have to be a multifaceted approach. You know it's going to have to come through education policy reforms. It's going to have to come through community engagement. You know we talk about the educational parts or the initiative on that. You know we have to dismantle these stereotypes, promote more cultural understanding and highlight the contributions of marginalized people. That way, people again, because they're whitewashed. That's how you basically erase, you minimize the accomplishments of the people and say, oh, they don't matter.
Speaker 2:The policy reforms we have to really, like you said, there's hate crime laws and things like that on the books. The anti-discriminatory laws, they have to be enforced. We have to promote equitable access to resources, which we see are being cut off. And then we have to just ensure the right representation of marginalized groups Black communities, asian, hispanic, again, because again, with the gerrymandering you take out the representation. Yeah, and then the community engagement we have to learn to coalesce man. It's going to take all of us to bring in the solidarity and we have to just amplify the efforts to counteract hate and bigotry. Man, you know, we have to have a more. We got to fight for the inclusion. We got to have more dialogue. We got to dismantle the structures that sustain white supremacy. We have to break them down again, starting with that education piece.
Speaker 1:Right. So I'm going to make two different points here, and this can go wherever it wants to. But you alluded to a couple of books that I just started reading. Again, I'm notorious. I've got like I don't know, a hundred and some books in my Kindle that you know. I just I keep getting them. I used to collect physical books, but you know I had to worry about where I was going to get a second house to be able to store my books in, so I started doing the Kindle thing right, and two of them that have been on the top of my list for a while now are one by Robin DiAngelo called White Fragility, and the other one is by I should look this up quick.
Speaker 1:So I don't Paul Moore, I believe, is the man's name, or no, it's Paul Mason. Paul Mason called how to Stop Fascism. So Robin DiAngelo. I'll just say briefly, the White Fragility book was spawned from her.
Speaker 1:Having been someone that did a lot of diversity training classes, I believe she's a professor too at like UW Madison. I may be remembering that incorrectly, but anyway, I think there's a Wisconsin connection somewhere to her, but I thought she was. It was really interesting because she said she went through years, literally of trying to do these diversity training sessions and the white people in the audience were just like, either like really uncomfortable and like not wanting you know to look, or they were like one. A couple instances talked about people that you know would get really angry and they'll throw their you know stuff, their notebook down the table when they came in and one guy, you know, as she's starting to talk pounds his fist on the table, which is the problem is white people can't get a job, you know. And she she's starting to talk pounds his fist on the table and says the problem is white people can't get a job, you know, and she was really intimidated by that sort of anger that would come into the groups. But, you know, over time she began to realize that there's this issue of white fragility and one of the basic premises of it is and I'd have to agree that white people are just uncomfortable talking about racism. We see it as a binary thing If you're racist, you're bad. I'm not a bad person, so racism must be something that has to do with other people than me. So there's kind of this fundamental understanding there with white people where the minute you start talking about racism and you have to acknowledge the fact that. Am I a racist? I'm not a racist. I would never do the things that racists do.
Speaker 1:But let's look at the number of things that are systemically in our culture, in our education, in our systems that are racist, that have racist roots to them and have never been identified as that. And if you don't want to believe that that's true, why did school board meetings literally lose their shit? Because people were so uptight about this whole critical race theory thing, right, which anyone that knows anything about critical race theory will tell you that it's not being taught in schools. There is no critical race theory subject line in a textbook anywhere in a public school that I am aware of. If you can find one, please let me know. Texas is listening. Maybe I don't know Florida you might be aware of. If you can find one, please let me know. Texas is listening. Maybe I don't know Florida, you might be aware of something that you had to ban.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, the point I'm making with that is critical race theory is taught at the graduate level. It's a methodology, it's a philosophy, it's just a course of study that asks a question about our culture, our education, our systems, and are there roots of racism still in there that are being cultivated, nurtured, you know. Furthered, because those systems haven't been addressed and reprogrammed, re-evaluated, realigned, right. So that's all part of the problem, that we've got to recognize the fact that we're all racists, we're in a racist soup. To say that we are not racist in America is absolute hogwash, bullshit, porous manuras, because there's just no way to not be. And if you don't want to embrace that and understand how you are, because that's the other thing, she notices that there are so many moderate white people and I, I'd say myself included, right, where we're so interested in proving to people that we're not racist. And you know, see, I have black friends, I, I do a black, I do a podcast with a black guy, I'm a good right. All this nonsense takes away energy from things like Avondale right, takes away from joining up with the black leadership of Lincoln Heights and saying let's go to the sheriff's meeting that they're having to do with the press and let's ask some really specific questions about what's being done to get that camera footage. What's being done to those officers that turned off their body cameras? How are we going to make sure that that doesn't keep happening? Because when these things happen, there's conversations, and you know things going on there that we as a public need to be aware of, so we can be sure that our law enforcement hasn't been infiltrated by people that really are serious racists at heart, like maybe the guy that killed George Floyd, maybe, anyways.
Speaker 1:So then the other point is Paul Paul I forgot his name already Mason Paul Mason's book. He talks about fascism and he made an incredible statement that I think ties to all of this. He said there's a demand for a definitive statement about what fascism is, and he defines it as fascism is the fear of freedom, triggered by a glimpse of freedom and think about that for a second. It's the violent, violent mobilization of people who do not want to be free around the project of destroying freedom. It is as the Italian anti-fascist Enzo Traverso wrote it is a revolution against the revolution. And there's so much packed into that. When you think about what is happening in America right now. Why is the fascist movement? Why is a fascist man in the office of the presidency right now?
Speaker 1:Because there was a fear of the freedom that we were starting to recognize, that we were just starting to get a glimpse of in a country of America where we have a statue, a freaking statue, when you come in to America that says give me your tired, your poor, your wretched, refuse, yearning to be free. We had just a little bit of time there around COVID where we got the sense that that's kind of a good thing to. We should do that. You know, we ought to be that, we really, and we could be that. Why don't we do that? You know, we we ought to be that, we really, and we could be that guldren, why don't we do that?
Speaker 1:And it got disrupted by covid. And then it got disrupted by the people that were afraid of it. They are they are just shitting in their pants afraid of it because it's going to mean that they're gonna have to drop a whole bunch of nonsense. They've been taught for a long time and I I am. I'm struggling with the answer to it, folks. I'm as much as I hated the movie, hated and loved the movie clockwork orange and if you've ever seen it, don't watch it with your kids anywhere near. It's a horrible, horrible movie. But the message of it is clear. Violence is not the answer and their technique for getting rid of violence ends up being more violent, and it's just so. It's the never ending cycle of human violence against humans and you know where does it ever end. That's the big problem I have with the film, but you know, because Hollywood always has to turn things into something they never should be or could be.
Speaker 1:Anyways, so all that's tied together, right? Why are there? Where are the things going on that that wasn't shown to the rest together, right? Why are there? Where are these things going on that that wasn't shown to the rest of the country? Why did they keep that broadcast in Evansdale? Cause they're, they're afraid they don't want that stuff getting out to the larger masses. They don't want people in Wisconsin finding out and, you know, being able to actually operate on the stupidity that was going on there.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, and it's the horrible thing is I saw in those videos there were police officers trying to do the right thing. They were trying to diffuse the situation. They, you know they, I think I want to believe they were trying to do what they could to keep people safe. But, you know, then there were others that turned their cameras off. So how do we know what they were doing? And will we ever know until it's too late? Because if they were actually fomenting, if they were figuring out a way to help those guys and saying, yeah, you know what you probably should call this off for today. But let's look at how about March 18th? Does that work for coming back with a bigger group? That'll be harder to disperse, you know, because you, I believe this whole thing is a reconnaissance party more than anything. I agree.
Speaker 1:I strongly agree, you know that are going to just let's troll the waters and see where the fish are, and if we can't, you know to your point, make an excellent point. This was not done at a capital. This was not, you know, some group trying to say we're, we've got a valid point here and we want to make sure people hear it.
Speaker 2:This was people coming to the doorstep and saying we're here and and we got to look at, and that man, that's awesome man, and just look at, they're getting their example from the head of state, right? You know, of course, all these, all these you know executive orders, just to push the limits, to see what I can get away with, to see what I can be done, to even, like you say, test the waters, that reconnaissance, right, okay, if this is how they will respond if I do this, because again, you know this whole thing, man, it goes back to the beginning. You know, at its core is all about. You know these people, they do these things, they cloak themselves in the first and second amendment and it's all about preserving their uh, you know social, political, economic structures, that you know privilege, no, to exercise their, you know their privilege. And again, it's like going back. You know, would you say something previously? You know it's. You know, remember how we talk about in previous uh conversations a bit. You know, when you said something previously, you know it's. You know, remember how we talk about in previous conversations a bit.
Speaker 2:You know, when we talk about Black history, we talk about things of Blackness. You know it's not about making white people feel guilty. It's not about making children feel guilty or anything. But you know of course that. You know, right, fragility piece. You know, of course it's like because, look at it this way, there are certain groups of people that want to do this thing Again, there's just groups of people that want to feel like, hey, white people should dominate society.
Speaker 2:That's their belief. You know, everybody else is inferior. But however, like, say, people that don't have that kind of hate in their heart, that don't have that thought or even thought process, the guilt comes in. It's like, wow, I've enjoyed this whiteness, I've enjoyed this. And it's like I don't want to. I can't speak for any white person. But it's like white supremacists make other white people feel guilty of enjoying their whiteness. But that's not my point of view. But now it's like, okay, hey, I most white people. You say, hey, okay, I don't agree with this. Now to your point. It's like what do we do next? You know what do we do next. We know the history, we know the definition, we know the ideology, we know, uh, the almost. We know the tactics. So now, what do we do?
Speaker 1:Right, Well, I know Paul Mason makes mason makes a a really conclusive point regularly and I I'll know more I promise I will read more by the time we talk about this again. But one of the things he says that has to happen where the only time we're successful in fighting fascism is when the center of a political spectrum and a group of people unites with the left, the political spectrum and a group of people unites with the left, that the, the far right and the far left. They're just not going to be able to have the wherewithal or the whatever I don't know, if the brain just gets too wired up on, you know, dopamine or whatever, to be able to do thing, or cortisone, I guess, would be in that case, um, or, or, you know, don't worry about that get the people that are in centralized and the people that are on the left side of the equation, that have that liberal, progressive thinking, and then the people that are on the center. They're like whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, let's think about this a little bit more. Okay, and stresses the fact that you're not, everybody's not going to get what they want. Exactly right, there's going to have to be some compromises, but the big topics, the big things of you know.
Speaker 1:Is this right for one group of people to do this? Is it right to have a social media platform where people can lie blatantly about things you know and cause the kind of foment and turmoil that that causes? Because they have the right to free speech but they have no responsibility for using that free speech in a truthful way. I think that's where you draw the line to free speech. You want to say things. Either back them up with reality or be willing to defend why you're saying what you're saying, because otherwise it's just irresponsible and there's no place for that anymore. You have too many ways to counter it.
Speaker 1:And the other thing I think that's really important he talks about not only having that centralization of things like parades and how we we allow people to be in parades in uniforms that are, uh, designed to strike power or strike fear in people because of the coalition that they have. And I thought of that with these guys that were on the bridge because they were all in black. They were, you know, so black. They basically look like commandos, you know, with their vests on and then having those masks on. That was a uniform right, and it was a uniform that was picked out by those guys because they wanted to instill fear.
Speaker 2:They wanted to basically say don't mess with us right, and that's a great point, because if you look at that swastika, it wasn't in white, it was in red.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's one thing I know, you know, you have to point out, you know it's like that thing was in red, meaning there's bloodshed to come, or that's the threatening of. You know, Right, and of course. But again, it's like those whole things, man, they try to normalize these extremist views, you know, and basically just tears down the values of equity and justice, you know, and of course, the resurgence of white supremacy groups and that whole ideology thing, like that is just, they're trying to make their influence known by saying it loud, saying it often, and which could make it true. And of course, these things are influencing a lot of young Americans. Either they're trying to instill fear into people of color or they're actually trying to train up and raise up young white people. And the sad part is, you know, again, they criticize those that say, hey, I want to know more about black history. And so they call them woke or whatever you want to call them Again, just simply because they want to know the history, they want to know the history, they want to, they want to say, hey, before we completely shut the door, before we go off repeating a matter, let's learn more, and they get criticized for it.
Speaker 2:And that's where it's like the threatening and like these marches to show strength in certain environments and situations is just to intimidate. And that's where you know, again, with the advocacy part, the allyship is so important these days, man, because again this thing is everything happening in the country is getting. Now the marching orders are coming from the top. They're basically just the cutting off of all resources that would benefit minorities. You know the immigration, voting rights, affirmative action. You know it's just perpetuating these, they just continuously perpetuating these white supremacist ideologies. No, and again it's like we have to have the education, the policy reform and the community engagement. And we just know, and this is just not just white people but all people, we just cannot be fearful.
Speaker 2:You know, of course, you know these people. You know like they shout loud, they threaten, they critic, like see, this is the thing. You know people hate what they can't control and what they can't control. And what they can't control, they criticize. When the criticism doesn't work, they start to threaten. And when the threatening part doesn't work, they want to turn a simple disagreement into some form of disrespect. And then, when they get to that point, that's when they can kind of justify the action that they take, because what their original thought is that I'm better than you. And that's where we have to just really just say, okay, we can no longer. We have to come together and and really create, uh, safe spaces, uh, for, you know, some very uh, some hard candor and uh, some actions uh to take place. No, to just uh go against these, uh, uh, these discords that are trying to be perpetuated, these narratives that are trying to be created.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's like, when we take a stance on these things the right way, taking a stance on them the right way, is the key. I preached on this in my love message last Sunday. You know, love that overcomes hate, you know, and it's just simply we have to learn to fight with the right heart's posture. Yes, we can, we can gather, we can do these things, but again, the enemy's whole trick and tactic is to take your heart out of the right posture with God. So you're fighting evil with evil, and that's what we're not called to do. And the scary part is, you know, we we continue to do this and so, but again, the threatening part comes out. And this is where, again, is we have to coalesce, and we have to coalesce quickly and do it the right way. I don't know if you are aware, but you know, in black communities you know yesterday was Friday you know we had a it was called a blackout where black people in the United States said we're not spending a single dollar.
Speaker 1:We did it too. We did it too.
Speaker 2:Yay, we were out to our part of economic blackout, cool. And there's more things like that. Every place that has been recognized as supporting this administration we are going against, like the canceling of Amazon Prime. And of course people are like, oh, because again, there's like maybe seven or eight companies that are the parent company to everything else in the United States. You know what I mean. And so it's like in those things there are so many layers you don't know who owns what, but you have to do the research, you know. So, like again, you know, when these things come to light, we just say, hey, we're not going to give you our money so you can support a person that wants to minimize our accomplishments, that wants to, you know, really hurt us. And so that's where you know, we again the, the education piece, you know, the policy reform piece, the community engagement piece, and then again just what we can get to that space. Create some spaces for some dialogue and some action. Create some spaces for some dialogue and some action.
Speaker 1:Amen. Yeah, you know I keep thinking this phrase. Fascism is the fear of freedom triggered by the glimpse of freedom. You know, you think about how many things are going on right now. You know the attacks on transgender folks. I've had arguments with friends of mine that are you know Christians, you know pastors or whatnot? And my question with all that is I get that. Are you know Christians, you know pastors or whatnot? And my question with all that is I get that you, you know, have a moral stance on that. All right, that's been socialized into, trained into through studies.
Speaker 1:But really, seriously, why can't we just love each other? What's wrong with you know? Okay, so this person's already struggling with their gender identity? Okay, something we didn't even you know. Okay, so this person's already struggling with their gender identity. Okay, something we didn't even you know. Talk about gender identity. Well, you're a guy, you're a girl, that's it. You know it's not. It's much more nuanced than that when you start talking about gender Right. So why can't we allow for that?
Speaker 1:So, you know, we had a glimpse of the freedom of what happens when people have the freedom to explore that glimpse of the freedom of what happens when people have the freedom to explore that we have. I've had the glimpse of freedom, of what I could be like without being a racist and what what racism really looks like the freedom to understand that a glimpse of what that looks like and it's. It's terrifying, you know, when you start to realize, oh my god, you all these things I thought I did. That showed I wasn't a racist, yeah, but I didn't show I was anti-racist. It didn't show that, you know, I was willing to confront my own racism as it existed today and work alongside people that were thinking the same thing. You know those glimpses of freedom, of what happened when, you know, the black community started to raise up and said no more George Floyd's Black Lives Matter.
Speaker 1:Here in our little Sauk Prairie we had a couple of people that had the audacity to put up a Black Lives Matter flag.
Speaker 1:One guy in particular that lived on Water Street, one of the main drags in town, had a big Black Lives Matter flag put up and he took all kinds of shit from people for putting that up, for putting up Black Lives Matter. So you tell me there isn't racism in the world, in our community here up in Wisconsin. What in the world is wrong with that? I mean a guy's putting up a thing that's saying you know, or we've still got signs in people's yards that say kneel at the cross and stand for the flag, and it's like what? What does that have to do with anything beyond some stupid rhetoric that somebody came up with to try to keep you agitated? Right, because when black players were kneeling at games, that wasn't about disrespecting the flag, that was actually a cry for being a better america, you know and again it's like when you protest or when you disagree with a thing, again they try to make disagreement into disrespect.
Speaker 2:That was a perfect example. And again, and it's like when you try to do that, you get away from the primary focus of the thing. That's what that is. It's called deflection, right, yeah, you deflect from the, from the main topic of. Hey, I'm protesting, we want a better governmental system, education, we want social justice, we want equal rights, we want all these different things, but yet, when we take a stance, again it's turned into disrespect. And then, of course, when a person feels disrespected, there's two ways they can come about it. They can say, hey, this is how that made me feel. Or you can actually, again, you can just invoke the initial response that you want to take because of your basic ideology. You know, it's like hey, I believe that I'm superior than you, so I'm going to do this Because, like what we're seeing in this country, it's funny how people you know when with I mean, of course, as a pastor I've been trying to stay out of the political realm.
Speaker 2:You know, of course, no, we know what the Bible says about race and all these different things, However, but lately it just you have to. I have had to call things out specifically. You know, like when we talk about Donald Trump, we know historically he's a populist populist, he's a racist, he's exercised all these things throughout his lifetime. This young, this person, he has not exhibited one fruit of the spirit. But how can all these pastors support him? And again it goes back to the primary focus. You know they feel the certain groups of people feel that white people are superior than everyone else, because there is just no way a person of sound mind can agree with the policies of this person thoughts. We know his underlying his whole modus operandi, right. We know what he wants to do. He wants to keep division and I just want to be straight up honest with this. I believe that and I hate using this word, but America is being raped and pillaged from within. And I say that because, again, it's like how can you allow a person and I'm talking about Elon Musk, how can you allow a person access to some of the most important data of how we pay things and who we pay? Basically, he got the scroll of everybody making everything, and how can you put this in the hands of a person that has direct conversation with vladimir putin. How can you put and see, and elon musk is the go-between between trump and putin, and I believe that this is my personal ideology, my personal thought.
Speaker 2:I, just over the course of listening to this man, even before, before he got elected, the Barack the Obama administration warned him that, hey, there's a Russian collusion within your organization. But again, they fought it. But now we see in real time, he voted with, he voted against, he voted with Russia at the United Nations. And then we saw what happened in the White House the other day. They ambushed that poor man in that. But again, it's like people that have supported him, they know who he is. And then, of course, they'll say, oh, I'm all about economy and I'm all about immigration. That is just the facade of saying that you most, you'd like how, you want things to be a certain way, but you can't. And that's my personal belief. You know, of course, and I feel like you know, Trump is deliberately trying to kill this country and everybody that voted with him is an accessory to murder.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's my I think there is a different country that he is hoping to become um, and it it will be based on principles of fear and greed and they're trying to, and you, they're trying to do this before next fourth of july, at the 250th year of uh, you know, the united states birthday, so to speak. They're trying to implement a lot of horrible things prior to that, and so this is where we've seen, in the first two months of his presidency, what has happened, and we are in for a fight. We just have to fight with the right hearts, posture. We have to create spaces for dialogue and action. That way us in society can actually come working together towards dismantling these structures that are in place, you know, and we have to come together.
Speaker 2:The gauntlet has been thrown down.
Speaker 1:And you know, look for things. I mean, it's as simple, I think, as you know, going to your town board meetings, going to your school board meetings, you know, just get informed about what's going on. You know, there are organizations we're so blessed in this area and we have an organization that does nothing but like try to meet the needs of the poor folks in our area. They have a circles ministry and the organization is called 6-8. And it basically has all different arms. They, you know, work out of the same building as the food pantry. They have a circles ministry where they're basically trying to take the lowest 10% of populations. I believe that's.
Speaker 2:John and Sarah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, John and Sarah Ramtham. Call out to John and Sarah Ramtham, two of the finest people you'll ever meet.
Speaker 1:And just trying to do those little things. Well, you know there's all those little things. Well, you know, there's all kinds of things you can volunteer to do to help with 6-8 projects. So there are places where you can get involved and just start finding out. There's a wonderful organization out of Madison with Fountain of Life. I believe is the church that Pastor Alex G runs. Uh, fountain of life I believe is the church that, uh, pastor alex g runs. Um, you know, there there's a organization.
Speaker 1:He does a thing called um justified anger and it's uh, basically teaching black history to white allies. So it's a white ally building program and, um, my daughter had got through it said, dad, you need to take it. I took it, ended up being a facilitator for one session. She's been a facilitator like four or five times now and it's just, it's so cool to see like white people kind of having the veil taken off and just realizing that man, man, what is going on.
Speaker 1:And recognizing that, you know, here in Wisconsin we think we've got this great thing going. And recognizing that, you know, here in Wisconsin we think we've got this great thing going, we have the largest incarceration rate for black people in the entire country in Wisconsin. So here we, you know, talk about having that veil pulled from your eyes. One of the things you have to realize is okay, well, so now let's bring the critical race theory, experts, doctors, such and such. Can you help us understand the systematic things that are going on here in Wisconsin, that, even though we're a progressive state, this is happening? We're a progressive state that just did a majority for Trump too. So obviously there's something going on here when we want to bring in, you know, brad Kimmer or whatever his name is, shimmer, for you know a judge that is on Trump's payroll. He's been funded by Elon Musk, so he's all up all over the place, right Farms and whatnot. So there are ways we can get involved right away by just getting the veil pulled off.
Speaker 2:So yep, that's a let's be hands and feet, like you said, get involved in organizations. What can you know? First, get the education piece, you know, and then again it's like we talk about community engagement, and then again that leads to these reforms, these political reforms, because we see all these laws that are being put in place, because you know what we've seen in the country at the top, you know a lot of this current president. He's put people in charge of the FBI, the CIA and actually the United States military to do his will. So you know there's a preparation for something bad. You know, of course, because remember, in his first administration he wanted to deploy the United States government, united States military against American citizens and he was like no, the generals at the time was like no, you can't do that. However, he's put in place the people that will not say no to him the next time.
Speaker 2:And this is where we again getting involved, because again, the the setup is, you know again, remember how we were talking previous weeks. Oh, look at my right, look at my one hand doing this while the other hand is doing this. Look at my one hand doing this while the other hand is doing this, and we have to be like I said get the veil off our eyes, look at the. You know we have to really educate ourselves on the systemic and systematic racism issues that have plagued this country for all these years, in all the institutions, and again, just all these theories and narratives that dehumanize people of color. You know we have to educate ourselves in them and just break down these practices.
Speaker 1:You know and that's the name of that. Tone. Huh, right, so that's a advocate. Okay, let's start's start a fourth tongue here, a fourth rung of the wheel Advocate, advocate, advocate. Wake up because it's. I know you can't use this kind of language because it's your pastor, but I get away with it periodically because I'm a theater guy. But we are fucked people. We need to do some serious unfucking, okay, so let's get to the unfucking. We need to do some serious unfucking, okay, so let's get to the unfucking. Um and uh, I'm going to streetwise it cause. It's just that's what it is, man, um, so I'm not sure. At least my brother isn't going. Dude, you can't use language like that. So it's just like cause a lot of my first christian friends are going. Oh, you said the f word.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah it's a word, okay, it's a word, and sometimes it's the word for what you're trying to say. So anyways, dude, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2:So so good to talk with you, man, I you know always yeah, and and likewise, man, I just look forward to our next conversation and, again, we're just hoping to get more people involved with this podcast and let's just start moving the needle on some things. Yeah, tell your friends.
Speaker 1:Tell your family right, so get the word out, and if nothing else you want to disagree, go right ahead and disagree. Man, that's how we're all going to learn, you know Just? Please don't be mean about it. There's no reason for meanness. Be mean about it. There's no reason for meanness. We got enough meanness all around us.
Speaker 2:Let's be civil and have some discourse. Okay, let me just leave with one scripture, man. This is Galatians 3.28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. That's the scripture. To kill racism right there.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about recognizing your own fascism. Get a glimpse of what you look like in Jesus.
Speaker 2:That'll show you just how much of a fascist you are, and yeah, you know, we called out yeah, man, let's see, I want to go back into my sermon. But you know, of course you know, when we talk about 1 John, 4, 20 and 21, that I was talking about how we uh, you can't say you love God and hate people. You know, and of course, uh, in that sermon, uh, last week, uh, you know, I say go back and watch it. Faithworks Ministries, uh, click on, uh, uh, the the love will win series and you'll hear about. You know where I discussed that particular sermon or that particular scripture and just talk about how we can't separate our love for God from the love of people. If you say you love God, you got to love people also. But also that particular scripture, it exposes the false prophet. Yeah, because you can't say you love God and hate people and you can't preach Trump and say you love God, you just can't.
Speaker 1:Love God to love people.
Speaker 2:You can't even say you love God unless you're influenced by his own love. Amen, amen. I'm Raul Rush. You can't even say you love God unless you're influenced by his own love.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. All right, I'm Raul Rush and you, sir, are Antoine Hallman Sr, and we are coming together here on Frame of Reference. So take care, everybody Hope to see you, hear you be around you next time, next place. Or, as we used to say when I was a kid same bad time, same bad channel. So all right. Take kid same bat time, same bat channel. So all right, take care. God bless, god bless what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna stop here. I gotta figure out what the heck I'm doing. Let me do stop where? Why can't I stop? Oh, wait, no, is that it no? Oh, I think I'm gonna just Wait. No, is that it no? Oh, I think I'm going to just end that there. Okay, good, I thought I mean, how do you feel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought it was good, you know. Just, we'll keep pushing. We're at a good time, you know.
