Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Unmasking Voter Suppression: The SAVE Act Controversy
Democracy stands at a pivotal crossroads with the introduction of the SAVE Act (Safeguard Americans Voter Eligibility Act), a deceptively named piece of legislation that threatens to fundamentally alter who can participate in our electoral process. Hosts Rauel LaBreche and Antowan Hallmon Sr. pull back the curtain on this dangerous federal bill, exposing how it would require documentary proof of citizenship that approximately 21 million Americans simply don't have access to.
The conversation goes beyond surface-level politics to reveal the profound human impact of requiring birth certificates, naturalization documents, or passports for voter registration. Through personal ministry experiences helping people obtain identification, Antoine shares heartbreaking stories of Americans whose birth records have been lost, destroyed, or never properly filed – particularly affecting those born in Southern states during an era of institutional discrimination. These aren't hypothetical scenarios but real barriers faced by real Americans whose right to vote hangs in the balance.
What makes this discussion particularly powerful is how the hosts connect the practical barriers – limited office hours at government facilities, costs associated with obtaining documents, transportation challenges – with the broader pattern of voter suppression targeting marginalized communities. They methodically dismantle claims of widespread voter fraud, walking listeners through the multiple verification steps already built into our voting systems that make such fraud virtually impossible.
This episode serves as both warning and call to action. Rather than merely reacting to each new assault on voting rights, Rauel and Antowan challenge listeners to develop proactive strategies to help vulnerable voters secure necessary documentation before it's too late. They invite people of faith to examine whether policies that exclude millions from the democratic process align with core Christian values of love, compassion, and inclusion.
Have thoughts on the SAVE Act or ideas for protecting voting rights? Join the conversation at www.forsauk.com and help develop solutions that ensure every eligible American can participate in our democracy.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
All right, let's have it. Hey everybody, whoa, I got to warn you now. Okay, I know my cohort in crime here. I'm Raul LaBrush, by the way, that's Raul, like Raul, remember, because if you ever meet me in person and you say Raul, things aren't going to start out well, okay, so in that conversation. But Raul LaBrush, one of the hosts here of Coming Together, so frame of reference, coming Together, and you can't do Coming Together unless you have somebody to come together with. So my co-host here is a man that we've known each other for well over a year. We're into our second year at least, aren't we? Or are we more than?
Speaker 2:that Not yet. Well, we've been doing this for over a year now together, but we actually met Salt County Institute of Leadership. Yeah, yeah, that's where we actually met, and that was about like three, four years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something like that. We met at one of those meals or one of those luncheons that they did, I think, and I was crazy enough to say, hey, I got this idea, what would you think? And you jumped on it, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:I forgot to ask who are you again. What's your name?
Speaker 2:I keep forgetting to ask. My name is Antoine.
Speaker 1:Hallman Sr. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, forgive me, so for now is it Antoine, with a whole bunch of N's, I forget now.
Speaker 2:Antoine, just how it sounds. Of course people don't again, they'll spell it however they choose to. But yeah, it's just Antoine.
Speaker 1:You know, my dad's name was Antoine, but it was the French version N-T-O-I-N-E and that was too hard for the person that did the birth certificate when my grandpa came in was very french, french, canadian. He had a very thick accent. He was like ah and t? E he's on the woman. It's just like what the heck is he saying? So she made it anthony and then he always he changed it to antoine. So, uh, you know it was known as twin t-w-W-E-N all his life. So you know you got an Antoine. Antoine, I mean, you know we got some history together, man. So anyway. So today's topic is what is it that you presented the topic today? So you get to introduce it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, man, Today we're talking about the SAVE Act, the Safeguard Americans Voter Eligibility Act. Of course, in Congress it's HR 22. And of course, man, this is a federal bill, man, that would require voters to present no documentary proof of US citizenship. You know, and of course, in order to, and basically we're looking at this, it is what it is, you know, of course, on the surface it's like, oh, we're fighting voter fraud and things like that, but actually what it is is a way to legalize voter suppression.
Speaker 2:Of course, the thing is, they mark it as a measure against voter fraud, but again, let's just be clear with voter fraud, it doesn't really exist. There's been very, very minimal documented data, as well as official investigative measures, that show that this is almost non-existent. And even in those cases that are, there were some form of a clerical error. You know, and, of course, the impact of what they're trying to do is to systematically exclude millions of eligible voters in America by creating these dangerous precedents. You know about what this is? A poor policymaking man. They want to undermine the confidence of the existing secure systems and just basically tear away at the foundation of a US democracy by placing these, by making it harder for Americans to participate in this democratic process and of course the thing is with the SAVE.
Speaker 2:Act, man, who is it going to affect the most? It's going to affect black, brown, indigenous immigrant communities, man, who already have a lot of hurdles to come over to get legal documentation of their existence, you know, and of course, but this SAVE Act, again, it's trying to just, basically, they want you to provide proof of citizenship, yep, and then, of course, and how?
Speaker 2:this documentary proof, you know documentary proof in person, meaning that there's no more online registrations and things like that. They want you to provide, like your birth certificate, your naturalization certification or a US passport, which a lot of people just don't have access to. And we were talking about this some time ago, man, where you know one of the ministries that we do at FaithWorks Ministries, and what we're going to be transferring over to the Humility Inc. Side of things is we help people get their driver's license and IDs and birth certificates so that they can become employable thus making them more self-sufficient Right.
Speaker 2:However, in our processes, you know what we do and what we found is like, say, you take now 65 years old, I wouldn't say that's old, but when you're trying to agree with that, I know that's where you are. When you talk about, like, say, someone born in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and certain parts of Florida, you know Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and certain parts of Florida, you know it's hard to get their birth certificate because what these municipalities and these counties have done over the years, of course a lot of them have been misplaced, discarded, and then of course, they're saying, oh, we're in the process of this annexation, one town merging with another town, or in the process of digitizing these things, the documentation being lost. So when we go to look for or burned up in a fire.
Speaker 1:We're going to say exactly. So when we go to look for, or burned up in a fire, we're going to say burned up in the fire.
Speaker 2:Exactly and when. When we start to try to dig up someone's birth certificate, man, we can't find it. And you talk to a city clerk or town clerk, it's like, ok, how do we get? This person is walking around, a human being is walking around, basically non-existent. A human being is walking around, basically non-existent. And of course, me personally, I say there's another layer to this because, you know, as you know, these local municipalities, local city-state governments are being, you know, taken over by conservatives and things like that. I can't help but believe that a lot of these things are intentional and deliberate.
Speaker 1:You know, with the misplacing, destroying of life documents. Yep, yep. Deliberate, you know, with the misplacing, destroying of life documents, yep, yep. Well, and remember too, one of the other things that's required as a form of proof is a US passport. Well, you can't get a US passport unless you have birth certificate, so that you know that's a prerequisite for that document. So two of these things are actually intimately linked to one another. And then the other thing they're allowing for is enhanced driver's licenses, so which there are very, very few states right now that allow for that, and that basically has a code on them, or like a special little symbol on them that also says okay, this person has been checked with a birth certificate that you know has proven that they are in fact a US citizen, and everything is hokey-dokey that way.
Speaker 1:And that speaks to more of a practical problem. There's two practical problems I want to deal with. Not only is the issue of these documentation problems, but even if your documentation does still exist, you can't go to a county clerk's office in the evening. You can't go to a county clerk's office in the evening. You can't go to them on the weekend. They usually have pretty prescribed hours, like 8 till 4, sometimes 8 till 4.30, some places 9 until 4 or 9 until 4.30. Well, guess what? Most of the people that would have these issues have jobs, so how are they supposed to get there during those daytime?
Speaker 2:hours? Right, they have to do, even if they try to go on their lunch break, right?
Speaker 1:uh, the clerk's office is closed between noon and one, exactly so unless you know ahead of time right where that's going to happen and you know so. You're talking about people that are already, in a lot of instances, kind of kind of fighting for, you know know, just survival, living from paycheck to paycheck. I've been there. I know you don't want to be taking PTO for doing something like this if you don't have to, because that's time you can't just relax. You're, you know, waiting in a line or whatever. If you're in a bigger city, you know, good luck getting that done in less than two hours. Just because of the number of people that are usually there, for whatever reason, they are able to get off, or I don't know how. You know how that ends up being busy. Sometimes it's just because it takes so long with each one that all you need to have is six people and all of a sudden you're way behind. So there's the practicality aspect of that, which, again, you have to believe. It's very difficult to not believe that. That's part of the thinking through of this process. Hey, let's do it. So you have to have these particular documents and then let's make sure that we end up having it during the most inconvenient times for most of these people that we're pretty sure are voting against us. Okay.
Speaker 1:Then the other thing that really really gets at me is I looked up how much it would take. So this is talk. We are talking fraud, right? So fraud. In order for that to happen, you'd have to have like a fake id, okay. So I looked up fake id. How much does it cost on average to get a fake id? And we're not talking, you know, going down to the store having some kid that prints them out and then, you know, paste your picture on. Like Hollywood would end up, you know, making you think that that would be okay. Maybe in the 60s you could get away with that, but today, if you've got a real license from a real place, you know, a certified license or a passport it's going to be you're going to have to have some pretty sophisticated equipment. So it costs I looked up it costs between $1,100 and $1,400 to get a fake ID or fake identity. If you're going to go all that way, get a fake identity altogether so they can't trace it to you, because that would be the smart thing to do, anyways.
Speaker 1:So these people that are faking if they exist, are putting a really significant chunk of change in order to make that falsity work at the level that it needs to work for this to happen. I'm sorry, but that seems pretty dumb that you could expect that that's going to happen on a widespread scale, unless, of course, elon Musk is funding it and saying you know, come to this rally and we'll give you all, we'll have a booth set up where you can get this made and we'll cover the cost. Right, can't you see that happen? Maybe George Soros would get behind that? Huh, everybody seems to love to hate old george.
Speaker 1:So then I just looked and thought I talked with friends of mine that run the voter. Uh, you know booths. Or here here in town, here we're a little tiny town, prairie to sack, wisconsin 4 000 people. Okay, so if at this level of our town, when you go to vote there, you have to have a picture ID, they still accept driver's licenses. So you know, because we know how easy those are to fake too these days with all their. You know holographic imagery and you know the pictures that are sealed under lamination. And you know now there's even another special symbol in there. That's clear and if you turn it around it's holographic right. There's symbols that are printed over in the lamination. There's our. Our wisconsin ids are pretty dang sophisticated and hard to reproduce, but you know, if you got 1400 laying around, not a problem, um, anyway. So you got to present that id.
Speaker 1:They look up on a computer they have. They're linked into a state system to be able to and I believe it for well, for the national elections. They do checks into that system. They try to find that same name and they hold on to your license so they can make sure they get the right spelling. They find your name on their register and when they verify that you're that person, they check it so that it becomes locked. That name becomes locked. You can't vote again somewhere anywhere in the state because that thing is locked. So there's an issue, right?
Speaker 1:And then, once you do that, then you have to go to another table where they have a printed log, a roster of all the people that are registered to vote, pre-registered to vote in this area area, and they check to make sure you're in there. Two different people check they have two different lists to make sure that there isn't an error in one of the lists or that somebody checked the wrong name you know previously, because there's so many Smiths in the world or in our case, in this community Brinigs right, there's a bazillion and one Brinigs. Those people are good Catholics. They reproduced a lot of folks, anywho, I digress. So they double-check that before they give you a ballot.
Speaker 1:So then you take the ballot and you do your thing and vote for who you want to, and then there's a little computerized thing that it looks like a copier that you can only scan in one way. If you scan it in the wrong way, the machine says ah, dude, put it back and put it in the right way, and you put that into that form. It's not like it puts it in a chamber where you can get at and run it a couple of times through. Once it's in there, it's in there and that again it's hooked into the internet in lockdown to be able to vote just one time with that piece of paper. That piece of paper is coded with a barcode so that it can't be reproduced and run a second time, checked against a roster, computerized Okay. So if there's huge amounts of fraud going on, that means you have to have some sort of very sophisticated computer technology and computer capabilities in order to futz not only with those machines but futz with the records that are kept on these systems.
Speaker 2:It'll cost more to commit fraud than to actually get your real ID and passport, etc.
Speaker 1:Right. So who's doing this? You want to talk about conspiracy theories. They're always giving the folks that are liberals putting off that this isn't know, or you know we stole the vote. All that jazz this is more would require some serious you know covering of your not only back end, but you know your tracks to be able to see where the digital footprint is that caused these problems. Much more likely to be a state funded kind of thing. So if that's the case, that Russia or Iran or the people that want to see us screw things up, if they're funding that kind of sophistication and I'm not saying they couldn't, if they really had sophisticated enough programming, okay then that means that our elections are in fact corrupt and that whoever wins that time, either they didn't do a good enough job in Iran or Russia to be able to really influence things, or you know something. Anyways, I say all that because in just talking through that system, it's kind of crazy. It's just crazy to think that there aren't other ulterior motives going on here in this whole thing.
Speaker 1:Other ulterior motives going on here in this whole thing, because the law does state that the bill states that those who register to vote by mail by mail, which you know, during COVID all evil took place, nothing but evil, because people couldn't go to vote. All of a sudden, this voter fraud started happening, which, by the way, probably helped Republicans more than it helped other people, because a lot of the folks that were doing that were in nursing homes. Right, they were the most vulnerable citizens to COVID, so they were the ones that were given the opportunity to vote by mail. And if they think that the majority of elderly people are voting for Democrats, I have a hard time believing that. I would think at best it's an equal split between right, so they shall not be registered. If you're going to vote by mail, you shall not be registered to vote in an election for federal office. Right, doesn't say anything about states, because they know they can't pass it through states but through federal office, unless that documentary proof of United States citizenship is presented in person. Well, guess what else is under attack right now? Natural-born citizenship. So something that is constitutionally prescribed since the beginning of the foundations of our nation in the constitution is being challenged because once they would get this passed, once they get through this, they have this two-tiered approach going on, where they're going to also take away that, that privilege of being a united state citizen. If you've been born here in the United States, which has been you know, they could probably go back and say that you know Obama wasn't legitimately a president. So anything you know he did, because you know he apparently never provided the proof which he did. You know, it's just a.
Speaker 1:It's unfathomable to me that people are not realizing that there's such, there's such a dearth of information that is not being held out there in the open and they are taking advantage Folks, they are taking advantage of people that are ignorant, not stupid, not stupid. Okay, let's be careful of calling people stupid, because no one likes to be called stupid. These are smart people, even if they're working class mega folks. They're smart people, but they are ignorant. They don't have the time. Oftentimes they're working check to check, hand to mouth kind of thing. They don't have time to do this kind of research and they, frankly, wouldn't know how to do it. So and that's part of you know, I went to college, I got a graduate degree. There's one thing you have to learn when you're going after those degrees is how to do research and how to ask questions and how to make sure that you are able to critically think about things. They don't get to do that in high school. Heck, in high school you're lucky to get through reading, writing and arithmetic right, because of the things that are just necessary to get through to graduate from high school. So it's just, it's such a multifaceted, such a complicated attack on things that we need to get educated in it so that we can present the information and have sources, multiple sources, to go to, because that's the other thing.
Speaker 1:Why do you think fake news became such a big deal? Why is that such a constant talking point? The fake news, the fake news, the fake news, the fake news. And you think, well, of course they got to do that. Because then anyone who's trying to do true journalistic endeavors, that's, trying to verify sources, triple verify sources before they publish anything, those people are going to be just called fake news. And because now you've gotten a huge segment of society to believe that there is such a thing. And yes, there has been such a thing for the beginning, since the beginning of time.
Speaker 1:I would say that Mad Magazine was fake news, because if you didn't know that Mad Magazine was parody and you know, just being, you know, done as kind of a fun way of kind of looking at things and saying isn't this silly, but it did have some truth in it. You could call that fake media. So they really you got to give them credit. They are really doing this smartly. So think, get people, do whatever you can to just ask them to think you know, because they're not going to get it from their sources of media. You know you've said it multiple, multiple times, antoine, you know get out of your news bubble, challenge your beliefs, challenge your biases, because that's the only way any of us really learn.
Speaker 1:I'm willing to accept that it is important to verify, it is important to make sure. But holy jiminy's batman, if you can't look at our process right now in prairie du sac, wisconsin, and think about all the steps you already have to go through, what the heck are they worried about fraudulent mail going in? I mean, for goodness sakes, a birth certificate is easier to fake than a passport or a driver's license, which is required. Now I I do not get it, folks. I simply do not get it that we don't think about this more.
Speaker 2:I don't yet, yeah, man, it's just, it's unfortunate that uh, majority, I'll say uh, you know, close to whoever voted in the favor of the current administration, approximately 80 million people, I can't help, but just simply say they have fallen under the spell of a form of a dark psychology man with the gaslighting, blame, shifting, the projection, the flat out manipulation. You know, a person does a really horrible thing and then make you question your reality, make you question your thought process, and that's what you know, in flat out. Some people are just along with the brutality and the cruelness of this administration. Some people just love it. They love the cruelty of it, but not realizing how this affects them.
Speaker 2:You know, with the SAVE Act man, you know, of course, when we're talking about the requirements, the documentation that's needed, who was affected, you know, is of course here in Wisconsin. They've given us up until just I think we got to early May to have our real ID, like you were talking about, like the Wisconsin IDs have gotten so sophisticated now that you know this real ID is required for travel. Now, of course and it's funny how, like they're saying, like to show document, documentary proof, to vote in federal elections, you know, is I had to show a birth certificate to get the real ID, to get the real ID. So why wouldn't? Because now they're saying that the real ID is not valid, or a military ID is not valid unless it's paired with additional documents like a birth certificate, naturalization certificate or a passport. But keep in mind that you need a birth certificate to get one of the above things and so, again, it's just another hurdle. It's a deliberate attack, man.
Speaker 2:The impact on marginalized, rural and communities of color man, it's just another hurdle. It's a deliberate attack, man. You know, the impact on marginalized, rural and communities of color man is just out. It's just crazy. You know, of course, a lot of communities, man, we don't have access to these required documents, you know, and, of course, like we're just talking about the cost involved in even getting them. That's why we are one of the reasons that one of our ministries is to help people get their IDs and things like that, their birth certificates, to help them become employable and more self-sufficient.
Speaker 2:But now the primary focus is so they have the vital records necessary to vote. And, of course, when we're talking about this whole thing, it's like now you can't, you have to do this, you have to do all of this in person. Now, if you're a rural person, if you're living in a rural area, how far do you have to travel to get to a office to present these documents? If you have a ride? And I'm going to use this as an example 75, 80 year old white lady Live alone. She, she, she participates in a democratic process by voting, by mail. But you're telling her she voted for this administration. But now she's starting to see how the thing that she voted for is affecting her. Because, again, this, these things are targeted. But a lot of people didn't know. All these things won't affect me. I can vote in a certain way, I could do these things, you know. I can know I'm voting for this particular administration because their economic policies or their policies on immigration, quote, unquote, you know.
Speaker 2:But it's again now they're starting to really see how these things affect them. Because not only is this thing affecting people of color, but it's affecting married women, married white women. You know, now it's like just think, if you're your marriage, your birth certificate says one thing and your state ID has your married name on it. Now you got to go and dig up your marriage license here in Green Bay and dig up your marriage license. Here in Green Bay, one of our pastor friends, her husband, passed away about four or five years ago and now, of course, as we start to move towards the requirement of having this real ID, she went down and, of course, her married name is one but her birth name is another. She had to go through years and years of documents to find her, her marriage certificate. And, of course and just think about this, you know, you know a lot of again in in rural, marginalized, poor communities.
Speaker 2:Think about how often you have to move. For one economic issue or another. You have to move. You economic issue or another, you have to move. You have to pick up and move and in the course of these transient times and transient spaces, documents are lost, birth certificates are lost, marriage licenses are lost and, and it's like it just flat out, hey, over time you forgot where you put it. And then, of course, uh, it's just these things where it's like these herb, these deliberate hurdles put in place to impact certain groups of people, and this includes white women. And then this is where it's like okay, you really got to, we really got to.
Speaker 2:Like you said, it's like we have to really start calling light to this. We see this big thing on the surface, but there are so many things undercurrent that are going on. But there are so many things undercurrent that are going on. You know, of course, like just talking about the discriminatory impact on women. You know, it's just like. You know, it's basically telling you hey, I don't trust you to participate in a democratic process unless you can prove that you, who you are, and it's just, it's just outlandish. You know, and it's just, it's basically legalizing voter suppression is what this is doing and if we're not careful, it is targeted racism. You know you're trying to deliberately disenfranchise tens of millions of people. You know, 20, approximately 21 million Americans lack the proper documentation to get the information required for the SAVE Act. And keep this in mind, like you said you made this point Many of them are already registered voters.
Speaker 2:But, however, if, coming in these upcoming elections, if they can't provide what the, if it makes it through Congress, which we have to get, we have to be in Senator Ron Johnson's ear saying, hey, don't vote for this because it went through the House really, really fast. Yeah, it wasn't even talked about, it just came to the floor, boom, and all of them voted for it. Now it's in the House, is it is in the seat of the Senate to vote this thing through. So we got to reach out to our senators and say, hey, no don't, we don't like this, we don't like that Because, again, even though it was targeted at one group of people, but you start to see how it affects everyone.
Speaker 2:You know again, you know, like we saw that last week, a couple weeks ago, with the hands on movement, you know, of course, a lot of people when they really start to come out of their news bubbles and see how the actions of this administration are really starting to affect them, ie their Social Security, medicaid, you know, you saw a lot of people of all nationalities out in those lines because they say it affects them and it's unfortunate to say, you know, you saw some white farmers saying you know, even with the cutting of USA, they say they'll still vote for him. And again, man, just when we're talking about this, say that. You know we really, the cutting of USA, they say they'll still vote for him. And but again, man, just when we're talking about the Save Act, you know we really have to stand up against it, we have to speak out against it. We have to bombard Senator Ron Johnson's doorstep and his phones and telling him no, if you vote yes to this, you are not representing us. You know, and of course.
Speaker 2:But that's uh, it's just. It's just, it's a bad thing. Requiring people to try to be in person and they're not having any kind of online or mail in alternatives is is this thing is designed to exclude, not to protect voting rights is to exclude people from voting and, of course, when they do, uh, they try to weaponize bureaucracy, maintaining the racial hierarchies of the electoral process, right Cause again, like you know, it's funny how, like this current administration says hey, you know, we're trying to cut out bureaucracy by cutting all the heads of these, uh, the EPA and USDA and the CDC. They're cutting all these bureaucracies but they want to create one when it comes to voting, and so these people, they can't have it, or revenue, the external revenue service.
Speaker 1:right, if you can cut that off, then you've got all kinds of ways to get rid of things that now you've got to balance the budget because we're not charging you income taxes. We're your saviors. We're not charging that. Oh, there is going to be a service fee for using internal revenue service, though, just so you know, it's just not going to be tax free.
Speaker 2:And, like you said, brother, it's like, under the guise or under the banner of election security, they strip away the rights of eligible voters, undermining the trusted programs that we already have in place, minding the approach, the trusted programs that we already have in place. But it also it'll like, say, again going back to like, saying, having to have these various forms of id. If you don't have these various forms of id, they'll criminalize that process. They'll try to criminalize that discrepancy in your documentation, like, say, a married woman going to vote if she don't have her marriage certificate, her birth certificate and and her, if all three of these things have to match up with current addresses and xyz and all these different things. But if you don't, if they don't match up, they're gonna. They're gonna try to charge you with some kind of voter fraud or put a they want to have uh, many documented cases of voter fraud on record to justify this whole thing. And so they're going to create uh, they're going to create cases of voter fraud. And the thing is, when you dig deeper, you'll see that they're not voter fraud. They'll just be simply saying, hey, what the actual idea, the actual case will be, is simply hey, I don't have the access to get the documentation that is needed for this.
Speaker 2:But you know, of course, if they't have the access to get the documentation that is needed for this, but you know, of course, if they're talking about trying to put the SAVE Act in place, man, it'll codify voter suppression, man, this is just one of those things, man, we just cannot let sit. You know, we people and this is people all races, all colors, all religions, all political affiliations, it affects everybody. Because again and again, man, just I'll say this and I'll yield, it's just a lot of people voted for this administration, man. Because again they say, oh, it was his economic policy or his immigrant policy. I have a firm belief that people vote for people based on what they do, and of course, people are seeing what this man has done, even in his first term. No, he is a blatant racist. He hates people. You know, let's just say it, he hates people.
Speaker 1:He humiliates anyone that stands against him and he's very cruel.
Speaker 2:He's very cruel. He's very cruel and people love the fact that other marginalized groups of people are going to be held under a hammer or under a thumb or just be like. You know what's happening in immigration right now. This is just cruelty, man, this is borderline. It's actually I'm going to say it it's inhumane, like you know what's going on, but the thing is.
Speaker 1:They are smashing people's windows in their cars smashing them with sledgehammers and pulling people out of their cars and shoving them into vans. I mean it is ridiculous and we are letting it happen. We're letting it happen.
Speaker 2:And people have voted for this, but now they're starting to see how it actually affects them. And again we here at a frame of reference, coming together, we're not only calling this thing out, but we're also giving it make, trying to create a safe space for people to come and say, hey, I was wrong. Let's now, let's come to the table and see how can we start to combat these things.
Speaker 1:And that's what we're trying to do here create a safe space to say hey, I was wrong?
Speaker 2:How many times have you and I both said hey, I was wrong?
Speaker 1:about that. Oh man, come on, I'm wrong more than I'm right. Ask my wife, She'll tell you, or my kids.
Speaker 2:I'm in this grief. But yeah, man, this legalized voter suppression. But yeah, man, it's legalized voter suppression. And again, man, it's the cost of even hosting elections are going to go up. There's so many bad things that are going to happen with this act if it goes through, and we just have to fight. We have to fight with the right heart's posture of being Christians. You know, of course, we don't repay evil with evil. We overcome evil with good. You know, we just have to. We have to. We can be bold, we can even be loud, but we have to keep the right heart posture. And when I say right heart posture, we're standing. You know, we're living according and acting according to God's biblical principles versus our own personal preferences. And that's where you know we will win this thing. Love will win. I encourage people to go back and watch my sermon for February. Love will win because it addresses a lot of these things as far as racial unforgiveness and all these different things. But yeah, this act, instead of solving a voter issue, it actually create a voting crisis.
Speaker 1:I I'm kind of getting more cynical as I get older. I do believe, you know, I've read to the end of the book and I do believe that there is a. You know the story turns out fine and the reality is, though, I don't know if we're in the tribulation right now or if that's yet to come. If it's, you know, hard to imagine, but, you know, is it going to get much worse before it gets any better? I just don't know.
Speaker 1:So my cynicism takes over in that I want to be prepared, and it's hard, honestly, it's hard for me to believe that we can win this battle, win this battle just because in our state, in Wisconsin, and in the national you know Congress, the Democrats have us, you know, a majority. So the way that we're going to win is by getting the Democrats that are the majority, getting enough of them to believe that, okay, go ahead, vote for this, but you're not going to get in office again. So you know if you're ready for that. And at that point then, you know, does it all get turned around? You know, potentially, you know it could get turned around when you've got a different administration in, but the key will be whether or not you can get a different you know administration in. So they are recognizing that they've got a pretty short window here to get this, get this passed, cause if they don't get it figured out by 2026, it's, it's going to be, you know, it's going to be hard for them to ever get it to happen.
Speaker 2:This has been the most hardest hundred days of any presidency to this point. Yep, you know, uh, and, of course, and like I was watching one news show just saying how these people, they're actually everything they're doing is just test runs, the deliberate disobeying of judicial precedences and things like that. They are testing the waters, man, in its first 100 days. They're testing the waters because, again, if we're not careful, we got four more years of this man.
Speaker 1:If we, if not more Lord willing, if not more Right.
Speaker 2:So my, my point is I'm just going to say man again, this whole thing is designed to frustrate people out. They threaten people out of participating in democracy, but they also want to frustrate people out. They threaten people out of participating in democracy, but they also want to frustrate you out of participating, right right.
Speaker 1:So my encouragement you know where my cynicism gets encouraged is I want to think beyond what they're doing right now. I am tired of doing nothing but reacting to what Trump does, to what his administration is doing. I am sick and tired of it and as an actor at heart, I know the difference between actors and the rest of the people that I know, actors and artists in general. We know how to innovate. So let's stop chasing the tail, because these guys are the tail end of humanity. They are the butthole of humanity. Nothing that is coming out of them is nothing but shit. Okay, I'm saying it because Antoine can't. He's a minister. I get that, so I am. I am the voice of vulgarity here on frame of reference coming together, but you know it is literally. It is nothing but shit that is coming out of this butthole of an administration. So I'm probably going to get taken away by the NSA for having said that, but the reality is that we own the list, man.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, you know, and hopefully they won't wipe out this podcast before it gets to the right people. So if you can adopt the philosophy that, okay, do what you can, do what you have time for to call senators. But in our state, ron Johnson, he's not going to listen to me. He's already accepted that he's not going to win an election with my vote, so what does he care?
Speaker 1:What I think the number of representatives that are Republicans that have gotten their butts chewed by having their town meetings, which they're supposed to have with their constituencies, they're now dialing in, right, the war was the place they're now dialing in, right, the war was the place where they actually had a cutout, a life-size cutout, of the representative, and then he phoned in to the thing. So it's like are you kidding me? A cutout representative, that's a paperboard thing, their foam core, you know person. And then that's supposed to suffice, for I couldn't make it here but I sent my foam core dummy, you know. So here they are trying to avoid any direct conflict with people in contact, right Contact with anybody that might, you know, differ with their opinion. So they are hiding, they are hiding under rocks to avoid doing that. So can those guys be convinced enough that, okay, do you want to try to take the chance that you're not going to get into office? And the only thing that makes sense to me that they are banking on is that it won't matter what these people think, because by the time 2026 comes around, they're not going to be able to be voted out.
Speaker 1:So we have two strategies, from what I can tell, that we can utilize. One is now mobilize, just like you are, antoine. Mobilize so that you can help as many people as you possibly can to get legitimate IDs. You know, if they're homebound people that have done mail order, figure out now how you're going to get those people not only to voting stations, but how are you going to get them these legitimate types of ID so that they can vote. Get that figured out and figure it out now, because you've only got until 2026 to do that, if this damn thing passes, okay. So that's number one mobilize for that now.
Speaker 1:Forget about what the he's going to do tomorrow to piss you off, because he's probably got a post-it note board or bulletin board that's the size of Miami, that they're just putting things up to it and saying, okay, which of these things will get the most people upset so that we can distract them from what we want to do. And it'll be like magic, right, it'll be magic that they will watch them just scurry like a bunch of bunnies in a hat, right, it's just. It's so obvious that that's what's going on and we are stupid enough to fall for it. We are stupid enough to continue to respond to his idiocy of the Gulf of America. Come on, who gives a rat's butt right now, if he wants to call it that, fine.
Speaker 1:I got bigger battles, like how am I going to get these people their legitimate documentation that they need in order to be legitimate voters? So, get that figured out, okay. And then the other thing that just gets me is that we need to start figuring out what our agenda is if we don't pass this stuff and 2026 does end up being the last straw. I don't think it can be the last straw. I think we better be strategizing now what the, either the protests or the, the actions that we're going to take as a country of people that want a civil, want a compassionate, want a diverse, equality-driven, inclusively-driven society that says you know what?
Speaker 1:I don't agree with transsexualism. I don't personally, but I'm not going to tell you that you're going to hell because you do. That's not my place. I am not God. Okay, god gets to make that judgment and if he looks at the heart of a person and decides that you know what that was earthly stuff, we're not. You love people. You know. You love people. You were compassionate. You help people around you Enter the kingdom, right? I don't know, it's not my job to know that stuff and I will fight to the finish with anyone that tells me they're going to hell. Oh yeah, when did you become God Exactly? When did you become God? I would like to know, because if you're going to sit there and point to scriptures that say that that's true, I can point to one, if not two, if not three other scriptures that tell you to put that in measure, to put that in a perspective that has to make sense with that other thing.
Speaker 2:Exactly, man. People cherry pick scriptures to fit their motive, of scriptures to fit their motive. Uh, what did god? When god came off of the mount man in exodus 34, uh, 34, 6. He came down and told in person. He came down and told us who he was. He was a gracious and merciful god. No, no, slow to anger, steadfast and everlasting love, meaning he loves us all, regardless of our lifestyle, political affiliation, race, color, whatever. He loves us all, regardless of our lifestyle, political affiliation, race, color, whatever. He loves us all. And again, like you were just saying, man, we have to stand up for every right because, again, a lot of people aren't even familiar or haven't even heard of this thing. That is what we're talking about today. A lot of people haven't even heard of it. You know they're because, like on fox news, they're not going to say too much about this, because, again, they don't want to bring light to what. Because, again, when people really get the just of this, they'll know how much it actually affects them or they bought the line that it's corrupt.
Speaker 1:We have corrupt elections. We have to do something because there's no way trump could have lost to biden.
Speaker 2:No way, you know yes because you know, and again, like man, you know, like, uh, again, just these people as a whole man, you know, like, again, just these people as a whole man, you know, you know we talk because these people, these people, tomorrow they're going to call, they're going to I'm just going to say this, I'm just going to say it they're going to allegedly celebrate the risen Christ with foul hearts and he, when he says, you honor me with your lips, but your heart be far from me, that is what it is. Because you know these people know they're saying they're Christian, but they're these acts of hate, man, these acts of racism, you know these acts of suppression, you know these stripping away of rights, and again, you do it all under the guise of voters, electoral safety or whatever. And then this save, that it's not a step towards stronger elections. You know, it is basically institutionalized voter suppression. You know, just legitimized by law. You know we got to reject this SAVE Act, you know, because it masquerades as some type of reform, but it's going to actually be regression. And if we can make it through this man, you know we, we have to make it through this because, again, this is just the beginning of what we've seen the other rights that are being taken away a woman's right to choose who. Who has the right, other than that woman herself, than to say what she chooses to do with her body? Her and her doctor makes that choice.
Speaker 2:If a person wants to live an LGBTQ lifestyle, who can tell them that they cannot? We as pastors. That's one of the main reasons that we are a Christian, non-denominational church, because we say all are welcome. We will not deny anyone Jesus Christ because of whatever denominational bylaw that any kind of church allegiance or federation may have. You come to Christ and that's why you know. Again, man, getting back to this act itself and the people that are trying to invoke this act, they say they're Christian, but, man, their hearts are saying otherwise and the Bible tells us that we'll know them by their fruits and, of course, their fruits. Nothing referred to material wealth is referring to what they have done, what they have stood. What side of history are you on? And again, it's like these people are going to be sitting up in churches saying hallelujah, hallelujah, but they have so much hate in their heart. And of course we know 1 John, 4, 20 and 21 tells us plainly you cannot say you love God and hate people? You can't.
Speaker 1:Well, and judgment. So much judgment right. Judge not that ye be not judged.
Speaker 2:Love and not judged. That's what we're supposed to do. You said it.
Speaker 1:I want to point out that you know what are the two commandments. Jesus himself, okay, what are the commandments that he was asked? What are the most important commandments, lord? You know he's talking about these in both at least, matthew and Mark, and what does he say? He says you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength. And the second is this these are the two that matter you should love your neighbor as yourself. So, second is this these are the two that matter. You should love your neighbor as yourself. So my biggest hope you know, the thing that counters my cynicism the most is that the people that are on the side of this are breaking rule number one and rule number two, the two commandments that he called us to do more than anything else, because people are loving money, they're loving their own security, they're loving Trump, they're loving this.
Speaker 1:You know Republican strategy of you know put America first. Right. So we have our idols right. You have your idols that are you're placing above God. Cause, if you love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength, I guarantee you take care of that first, you'll start seeing things in a different light. And if you love your neighbor as you love yourself, because I feel so blessed. I have two neighbors, one across the street from me and one right to my left, that both have trans flags up right now and I think to myself God, thank you for putting me in a place where I get to love on these people without any sense of one has had a daughter that you know, biologically born daughter that now is his son, you know, and went in. Another is a biological son that went to being their daughter and they're so much happier after having done that. And then I look at things like the scientific research that's being done, where it's not just X and Y. We've been trained that it's just X and Y. Do some research it's actually XYY, there's XXY, so there are different combinations of that particular gene. That gives some scientific credence for why these people feel.
Speaker 1:Why is it such a struggle? I myself grew up as a very emotional passionate. Have you figured that one out? I myself grew up as a very emotional passionate. Have you figured that one out kid that had balls whipped at my head when we would play bombardment by one kid in particular that just didn't like me because I guess I was too whatever. And he would throw balls at my head from like three feet away and yell faggot. Not a nice word, I know. Sorry, but that's what he said, and you know so, loving thy Lord, thy God, love your neighbor, man.
Speaker 1:If we would get that right, church, if we would get that right, think of how different the world would be, because we would be just letting the chaff burn away and focus on the real fruits of what we ought to be doing. And I'm not blind enough to think that Christianity is the way that everybody has to go. I just want people to love one another, beloved. Let us love one another for everyone that loves. Everyone that loves, knows God and is born of God.
Speaker 1:So I keep coming for that, even with all those Buddhists and those you know, Confucianists and Muslims. Hey, I have met some of the most loving, wonderful people, friends that are Muslim belief system, okay, religion that I would walk through fire for those folks because they're so loving and compassionate and so giving. You're going to be the judge that sits back and says that yeah, they're not getting to heaven because you said I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to God but through me. Well, how do you know that I am as in God, the Father, who is merciful and would have, that no one would perish but that everyone would have everlasting life?
Speaker 1:How do you reconcile that with your judgment that says I'm the one keeping the register here and I'm telling you you ain't worth my time, boy, because you is a Muslim. I'm sorry, dude, we need to talk because that is not the God of love. I'm sorry, dude, we need to talk because that is not the God of love, that is not the God that Jesus was incarnate, as that is not how he operates. He came, jesus came. So all of that Old Testament judgment and stoning people because they ate meat, whatever, that they violated one of the dietary rules of Jewish law All of that stuff was kind of put aside when Jesus came. And what is his ministry? Even Gandhi said I love their Christ, I would follow their Christ. I'm not so sure about the Christians.
Speaker 1:I'm paraphrasing, but his take on it was jesus aha, thumbs up christians, not so much you know so we're running out of time, man, I'm sorry, I'm just going on and on.
Speaker 2:So no, no, man, this is, this is, this is a great and excellent you know, of course, again, man, you know, when you talked about those uh, two commandments that the lord gave us, uh, love that god with all that heart, mind, soul and strength, and then love that neighbor as thyself. Now, again, when we start talking about loving thy neighbor as thyself, we have to take that first piece, because a lot of people just don't love themselves, man, and it reflects in their behavior. Whatever a man thinks of in his heart, so is he in his behavior. And some of us in society, with all the sensationalism of materialistic things, and it's like the world is teaching people to hate themselves. Man, if you don't meet this certain criteria, you don't fit in. If you don't, if you think this way, you don't fit in, or you don't look this way, you know, or, even worse, exactly, and that's why I say, man, the country has fallen under this, uh, really dark psychology of manipulation, blame, shifting, gaslighting and all those different things, man, and but we have to get back to that very thing loving ourselves. You know, of course we. You know even the very first thing, that god, you know, know when Jesus says love thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul and strength. We can't even love God unless we receive his love first. When we can receive that we are loved by Jesus, then we can love God back, because we can't love unless we've been influenced by his love. That's the first thing, because that's where a lot of us fall short. We don't know the enemy of being your ear with all kind of things. Hey, uh, you did this, you thought that you did this, you thought that. So that means you're not christian. You you're, you're, you live this way, you do this thing. You're not christian. But the thing is, god loves us, jesus loves us, and that's what we have to get to the point of, uh, really getting that first.
Speaker 2:That is the first hurdle, uh, that I'm in in in our ministry when I'm talking to people boots on the ground, they feel alone, they don't feel loved. They've been to churches. They'd be like, hey, I tried, uh, I tried going to church, I tried religion. It didn't work. And I'm I have to say, hey, did you go to church for this sensationalism? Did you go to church because, uh, this certain group of family and friends went to this church? Or did you go to church because of this, certain group of family and friends went to this church. Or did you go to see Jesus? Did you go to meet him personally? Did you go desiring and hungering for a relationship with Jesus? Because that's where we will fall short. If we're going to church just to check the box, we got it wrong. We got to be going to see him and that's where a lot of us fall short, when we don't realize that God loves us.
Speaker 2:And then that allows the door to be open for things like this, like again, man, the SAVE Act man, it's targeted racism, man, that's all it is. Of course, this just reflects the history of voter suppression. It's almost like a voter tax because, again, all the documentation and all the hoops you got to go through to get the necessary documentation, you got to pay money to get all these different things, it's just, it's a voter. It's a voter tax man. And also the discrimination factor of it man, it just, it's just real. And again, this is just one of those many surface things that's going on, amen, but there are so many effects underneath and they affect us all so think about it right.
Speaker 1:Think about what you can do. Let's anticipate god help us, but let's anticipate that this thing does become law. Yes, start strategizing, you know? Don't, don't wait for it happen, don't be reactive be proactive.
Speaker 2:That's why, that's where the my answer.
Speaker 1:You know the marches and stuff are proactive, right. So yes, but it's. They're also reactive. They wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for stuff that he's doing. So strategy what? And there are better minds than mine that can figure out how to do these things, but we've got to figure out first what's our agenda, what are we willing to go to the mat for?
Speaker 2:Be on one accord. There you go, man. You hit it on the head, man, so anyway we've got to wrap this up, dude.
Speaker 1:You've got DoorDash, and I do, and I've got a family that wants to go out for Easter brunch with not only tomorrow, but, and I got a family that wants to go out for Easter brunch with not only tomorrow, but we got to do an Easter thing today too. Goodness sakes, we're celebrating this thing all weekend long. Oh yeah, that kind of seemed appropriate, doesn't it? Sorry, I couldn't help but joke. We're going to be coming back to this, obviously in the next few weeks. We'll know if this passes or not. But really seriously, folks, let's stop being reactive. Let's figure out a strategy, for how are we going to dig out of this hole that is being dug for us? Because there's been so much talk about the financial impact of tariffs.
Speaker 1:Again, I think that's a distraction too, because if we're going to not love the Lord, thy God, with all our heart, all our mind too, because if we're going to not love the Lord, thy God, with all our heart, all our mind, of course we're going to be sidetracked by that. If we're not going to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, we're going to be sidetracked by all of this Y'all. And our trans can't be in the military and if you can't use that, she them him. Nonsense it's just your signature. Now we get distracted by all that stuff rather than just saying you know what, do whatever you want. I'm taking my high road not only in not getting caught up in that nonsense and that crap that's coming out of your butthole, but I'm going to focus on things that are going to unify.
Speaker 1:Look at community things you can do. Look at you know stuff you can do to embrace the people around you and make them feel like the space that you're in, wherever that may be the neighborhood, the community, that it's a safe place for everyone and that when people come, as they will, to try to make a stand of hatred and a stand of you know these people are. You know they're angry about all kinds of things and I I'm not saying they're they don't have legitimate anger and and you know some of what they're feeling. But the reality is they've lost track of the good that can be done by just being loving and compassionate and empathetic. Because when, when push comes to shove, when we're in a bad place, the people I remember the most are the ones that came to our rescue, that helped, that saw, they didn't judge me, they just helped. So be thinking about that and we'll talk more. Right, dude, you're not going to like not talk to me now? Right, we're going to keep talking.
Speaker 2:Oh man, this is ongoing. Man. People need to be informed, people need to be healed, they need to be made whole, they need to be educated, they need to know that there's people out here that's going to show empathy and compassion through education and understanding man. So just the wheel's going to keep turning.
Speaker 1:So if you've got something you want to add to the discussion wwwforsauk, that's F-O-R-S-A-U-Kcom We'd love to hear from you, even if you're angry about stuff. But, you know, just share it in a way that we can understand what really is coming at and then be willing to discuss where you may be right. I'm willing to admit when people are right on. Dead on, we did need to do something to cut back federal expense. I'm all for that.
Speaker 1:My biggest problem with it is I work in computers. I know that when you've got complex systems, you don't go at them with a hacksaw. You go at them first by understanding exactly where the things are problematic and then understanding what's the best way to pare it down, because I can't just rip circuit boards out of computers if they're not. You know, working with the, you know the right program, the right way. I got to figure out where that problem is and then figure out do I have a device driver issue? Do I have a problem with? You know calls that are being made to the registry? Do I have a problem with a patch that needs to be applied? I mean there's a lot more complexity to this situation than there is to the computers that I deal with on a daily basis, but I'm Raul Rush and you can disagree with me as much as you want on wwwforsaukcom.
Speaker 1:I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong and I hope that you'll be willing to do the same. Or just say hey, good job, guys, appreciate it Right. And who are you again, sir? I keep forgetting it's one home and senior. Oh yeah, okay, you're probably going to say will you stop asking me that? But I don't know how to say dude, you know whatever. Maybe we have to come up with a where it's like I'm Ronald Rudge and I'm Anton. You know, we'll just get used to that kind of thing and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll figure it out somewhere along the line. So thanks for joining us. Folks Really appreciate your time and, you know, tell your friends, tell your family, tell your chickens, tell your dogs, tell whoever you need to tell to tune in and listen, please, and think about the things we're talking about. Okay, right, right, dude, all right man. All right man, take care. Folks Talk to you in a couple weeks. We're on a biweekly schedule now, so we want to give you some time in between to decompress. Okay, take care y'all. Oh, sorry, I did not mean to do that, dude. I hit the wrong button. I did not mean to do that, dude. I hit the wrong button. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off like that, but happy Easter. I wanted to say happy Easter and hope you guys have a fantastic time celebrating that he is risen.
Speaker 2:So,
