Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Building Better Leaders: Jim Carlough's Six Pillars Approach
Jim Carlough, accomplished business strategist and author, shares his six pillars of effective leadership, emphasizing integrity as the foundation that makes all other leadership qualities possible. Through compelling stories from his 30-year career, he demonstrates how integrity combined with empathy creates environments where people thrive even through difficult transitions.
• Integrity means staying on the center line of your ethical code, never straying too far left or right
• The current social media environment encourages people to "throw grenades and hide" without accountability
• When leading a team through job eliminations, Jim made three promises that resulted in the highest employee satisfaction scores across a 20,000-person company
• Leadership requires consistently asking yourself if your actions benefit you at the expense of others
• True leadership is developed through experience and reflection, not something people are born with
• The foundation of leadership is making others better, which ultimately makes you better
• Empathy and integrity work together to create trust, without which a leader cannot succeed
Connect with Jim Carlough to learn more about the six pillars of leadership and how they can transform your organization and develop future leaders.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world. In-depth interviews to help you expand and inform your frame of reference. Now here's your host, raoul Labrèche.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome. Welcome everyone to another edition. We're in Season 8 now. Can you believe it? Season 8 of Frame of Reference and this is our Profiles in Leadership portion of the podcast that we've done over time, and I can't believe it. You know, it seems like well, I guess it's been hundreds of interviews. So, of course, time went by quickly, but I'm psyched today.
Speaker 2:I've been doing a number of our frame of reference coming together broadcasts with Antoine Holman, but you know, I'm kind of getting back into the fold here with doing some of the interviews with folks around the country with different expertises and the guy that you're going to meet today, maybe you've met him already. I'm not going to be all grandiose and think it's all about me. That's where you first saw him. No, hopefully you know about Jim. All grandiose and thinking it's all about me, that's where you first saw him. No, hopefully you know about Jim because Jim Carlo is a fascinating, fascinating man and I can tell you that I don't even know him, but I can tell from the things that I've read, just from his bio, that he said I get bios from people before I put them onto the website and Jim just has this personality that comes through right away and I'm excited.
Speaker 2:If you can't tell I'm excited, then you don't listen or watch this podcast much, because when I get this going right away, you know we're all in trouble. So but, jim, jim Carlo, thank you so much for being with us today. How are you today?
Speaker 3:I am great and I am just pleased to be here and I love your excitement because that's just going to make me more excited and I think we're going to have fun.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope so. You know, cal Darnit, it's Friday late afternoon here in Cheese State, wisconsin, and Lord knows that there's enough things in the world right now to just sit back and go. Oh, woe is me. Oh, that's awful. Oh, did you hear what happened? I just am tired of it. I think there is so much worth celebrating in life. There is so much worth celebrating in this country that we live in that is so polarized right now. I get it Lots of problems.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to try to, you know, eat an ostrich with my hand in the sand. But I'm not going to try to, you know, eat an ostrich with my head in the sand. But, goodness gracious people, come on, make America great again. How about just being great Americans again, period. And we've got two of them right here. I'm putting myself in that club with Jim. But, jim, you know, one of the things I like to do to start things off is to do a little bit of my favorite things, and so this is really a kind of a Rorschach team, if that's a word thing, where we just kind of I'll throw stuff out and I ask you know what's your favorite? And you go, and if you're wrong, you're wrong. If you're right, if you're right, if you say something that you think might get you in trouble, just come clean on it, man, just come clean, okay. So all right. So here we go. First thing, what's your favorite pie?
Speaker 3:My favorite pie P-I-E.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm Not your favorite pie, like you know math. No, your favorite pie that mm-mm, like you go on and say something about this.
Speaker 3:I got to try that Lemon meringue.
Speaker 2:Lemon meringue. Really, you know, I think, and all the people I've asked that question, I think you may be the first lemon meringue had a couple of key lines, closest thing to that. But lemon meringue, what about? What's about a lemon meringue that you like so much?
Speaker 3:You know, it was this. Now my mother listens to this broadcast. We're in real trouble. My mom, my mom, god bless her is 100 and still bakes.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh Really.
Speaker 3:And growing up, everyone loved her apple pie. Okay, except me, she would have to buy a store-bought Mrs Smith's apple pie for me to eat it.
Speaker 2:Really, oh my God, I'm surprised she didn't whip you. My grandma LaRouche would never have taken that from me.
Speaker 3:So. So I don't know what it was, whether it was the nutmeg or the cinnamon or what it was, but now, everything else my mom baked I loved, but for whatever reason. Now I think my wife cured me of that because she told me she's never buying a Mrs Smith's apple pie, and so I do eat. My wife cured me of that because she told me she's never buying a Mrs Smith's apple pie, and so I do eat my wife's apple pie. But I always like as a kid I liked lemon ices, I liked lemon meringue pie, I liked on my birthday I wanted a lemon-filled cake. Okay, and I don't know why, but it was, but lemon was my favorite kind of cake thing, although my favorite ice cream was strawberry, go figure.
Speaker 2:You know the human body and especially the taste buds who can protect it right? So how about a favorite artist? And that could be? We could make that any art form, okay, sculpture, whatever you want to go with, but you're an artist.
Speaker 3:I'm not really an art person, but I'm going to put music in the art category that works and I'm kind of polar opposite here. I grew up a Springsteen fan because I'm originally a New Jersey boy, but now I've lived in Texas for 34 years and I'm sort of a country boy. It's going to happen. And the two channel buttons in my pickup truck Texas obviously that are worn the most are the Springsteen channel on XM radio and the new country station the highway on the only two buttons that get used. In fact, I should I should probably just reprogram everything to one of those two stations.
Speaker 2:Sure, that'd be an interesting Spotify list. You know, to have to put those two artists in and see what you get. I started doing a thing with them where it's the AI DJ. So I've got this. You know DJ X here or whatever, and he's amazingly sounds a lot like a real DJ would, but he mixes stuff from all the different songs I listen to and I swear there's some AI someone going. What the heck is with this guy. He listens to what Contus and, you know, springsteen. I don't get it. That should not be happening in the world. But you know what are you going to do? So how about?
Speaker 2:do you have a favorite song then, seeing as you have two great genres there to play with?
Speaker 3:You know, I don't only because there's so many that I could point to, and it would depend on probably the day or time or my mental state of when the question is asked, and I know you want to go down and dig deeper into that one, but anyway. So I have a very diverse taste in music and I think if someone was to, if I was to put my iTunes on in a car and just have it shuffle, I think people would ask to get out of the car at some point because they wouldn't know what's coming on next. And I'm sincere, because there could be a song from the 50s coming on. There could be a song from the 60s coming on, there could be Joni Mitchell coming on, who knows?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you and I would be able to go on a long distance journey together, because that's pretty much where my head is at. With music too, I'm amazed too. I'll tell you. I'm spiritual in a lot of ways, but the one thing that does hit me regularly is because I do a lot of shuffling with things.
Speaker 2:It seems to me that there have been multiple occasions I know there have been multiple occasions in my life where I am doing something and just have my headphones on and a piece of music comes on that is exactly the right piece of music for that moment and, you know, has the lyrics that I need to remember again and to think through again. So music, you know, I, I really someday would like to have some sort of a class workshop for people that don't think music is very important and try to unlock it for them, because it is just I see these things with these guys that play guitar and the animals come up to them, you know, from these wildlife refuges and you think there's something wild going on there. So how about a favorite historic personality, ronald Reagan? Ronald Reagan, any particular things that stand out? I mean, reaganomics is part of it, but gosh.
Speaker 3:So one of his favorite things was humor, which is one of my pillars. But more importantly, he's probably in my personal view limited personal view probably the last great president we had that was able to unite two sides of the aisle. We are so diverse from that today and and if we really want to make America great again, I think we have to bring Ronald Reagan back. I think we're at that point and ironically, he was a Democrat for many, many years and then became a Republican, and to me that sort of fits my mentality of we all need to get together, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such an interesting thing for me when I think about it. I've always considered myself to be independent, primarily because I'm educationally and artistically much more aligned with Democrats, you know, in terms of the. You know those kinds of understandings of the world and the problems of the world. But I'm conservative in financial things and you know I'm all for programs that will do things. But there's a part of me that says, yeah, but how are we going to pay for it? You know, at the end of the day, how are we going to make things? How are we going to not make things worse by doing that?
Speaker 2:And Reagan, I think you know he's a great example of somebody that came from very humble beginnings. I mean, he was a lifeguard, right, you know, as a kid growing up and then to start in radio and you know to do be in World War and be able to do all the videos and whatnot that he did, or movies that he did for folks. It just was a. He's a fascinating guy in general and they call him the great communicator, right, because he had that ability to just get yeah and, and I had the opportunity he spoke at my college graduation.
Speaker 2:Seriously.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm a graduate. I'm a graduate of Seton Hall University in New Jersey. Ok, and? And he was invited, and while we wait, and also on the day this was Pearl Bailey, pearl Bailey, yes, and then they had the governor of New Jersey at the time, who was Tom Keene, who, my cousin, ran his political campaigns so a little connection there. And we had to wait for the president. And as we're waiting around and everybody's up on stage and we're waiting for the helicopters to come in and then the president to shuffle in, somehow Pearl Bailey got the idea that she should get up and start singing and she, just off the cuff, got up and started singing. Wow, and when the president's helicopters landed she didn't stop. He came up on stage and joined her. Oh, wow, yes, wow, yes.
Speaker 3:But you know, isn't that I graduated? Yeah, and I graduated in 83. And if you go back to the late 70s and early 80s, there were there's some problem financial times there and finding a job getting out of college. He told us the stories of when he had to walk with shoes which had broken soles on them five miles to an interview at a radio station and the one thing I remembered he said was look, I understand it's hard to get a job right now, but take any job because it's easier to get another job if you have one already. And you know that has stuck with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that has stuck with me. It's hard to argue with that kind of advice, right? I mean, I remember taking a job the job that I'm actually in now. I had been working for the University of Wisconsin, really comfortable, you know, it was a great job. I was managing the Union Theater on campus at UW and just it didn't fit me. It was a huge bureaucracy and you know, I was always trying to find creative solutions to problems. And we, just after 10 years I had to part ways and so I was looking for a job and came and interviewed here and at the time, the offer that they made I was like, well, that's a lot less than I was making, but you know, right now some money is better than no money. So and took the job, and boy, you know, they built a job around me.
Speaker 2:So it's, you know I'd have to testify to the trueness of that. Just accept. You know, just move ahead. The boat's not going to move forward unless the rudder steers somewhere. So how about a favorite place or thing to do when you want to de-stress?
Speaker 3:I read. Second place would be take the short flight to Mexico from Dallas, fort Worth, and lay on the beach and read in Cancun, mexico.
Speaker 2:Wow, I would never think that you could even do that. You know that's interesting. So you just have your passport, go and you're done kind of thing.
Speaker 3:And yeah, well, a little bit more than that, but you usually have to book a little bit in advance, although you actually can go last minute but we have some favorite places that we stay at that are a little bit harder to get in. Okay, but the flight is less than two hours and you're literally at the beach in three hours.
Speaker 2:Yes, what shall we do today, darling? Let's just fly down to the beach. I like the sound of that. That makes me feel very good just thinking about doing it. How about? I'm sorry you were going to say something, no go ahead sir.
Speaker 2:This is one I really like to use a lot, especially kind of as we segue into the major part of our interview. Do you have a favorite memory from childhood and I try to frame that in the spectrum of something that maybe you smell something or you see a particular sunset I think for some people it ends up being or you hear a song and it brings you back to a different time that just always either brings a sense of calm or a sense of happiness that it's a favorite place to be, almost in addition to remembering it.
Speaker 3:Fresh cut grass on the baseball field.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 3:Okay, I played baseball all growing up and there was nothing like the smell of freshly cut grass on the diamond.
Speaker 2:Lots of games.
Speaker 3:Lots of games, lots of games.
Speaker 2:Any heartbreaker games or any victory games that particularly stand out.
Speaker 3:Well, actually, yeah, there's one particular game that stood out. I was not a power hitter, but I was a heavy contact hitter. And there was one game I was playing in I was a sophomore in high school. It was in a summer league and I went four for five, two singles, a double and a triple.
Speaker 3:And afterwards a gentleman approached me and he asked me where I was going to college in the fall and I told him I wasn't, I was going back to high school, I was only a sophomore. And he he said you're kidding me. And I said no. And he he said you're kidding me and I said no. He said we need to talk because I've been scouting the pitcher that you ripped apart tonight and you might be interested in the school that I represent, and anyway. So I had never had a game where I went four for five, but that day but you know, it's funny because they say in baseball the people who are really successful at hitting can really see the rotation and the seams of the ball, and I remember that day I could see the ball more clearly, for whatever reason, than any other game. And it just yeah, it just just.
Speaker 2:It was a very lucky day for me I always remember my uh, my dad was not a huge sports guy. I mean, we weren't like the people that had to watch every single game of any sport, you know, regardless of what it was so, but he said, of all the sports, he loved baseball the most and he loved the idea of it being one person against another person. That it was you know the actual pitch and the hit that that just always struck him as being a true sport, you know, to see who wins in that challenge, and you know, of course, tennis and things have a similar kind of thing. But something about baseball really captured his heart, I think and that was one of the three things I can remember doing with my dad was going to see a Brewers game together, because he just thought that that was an important thing to share, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I don't think a lot of people understand baseball because, you're right, it's pitcher and batter, but then it's also chess.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:With the men on the field and the people on the bases and the options that the offense and defense has, and a lot of people. So when I go to a professional baseball game, I still like to pretend I'm the batter and I try to guess what the pitcher is going to throw next. And you know, if the count's 0-2, he's thrown a curveball and it's not going to be close to where he's going to hit it. Very rarely is he going to throw a fastball over the middle of the plate, right, right. And so you know. Having grown up playing ball for so long, you think about these things and so I like to follow, pitch by pitch, look at the count, look at what the players are, look at the batting average of the person who's at bat. Is it a second baseman? He's not going to hit a home run. He's probably going to hit for a base hit, and you know and try to figure out the plays, so.
Speaker 2:So what's your favorite? Baseball movie then, given all that?
Speaker 3:Do you have one Bull favorite baseball movie then, given all that, do you have one?
Speaker 2:bull, bull dorum, really bulls are. That's one I haven't seen. The one I haven't I've always loved is uh, for love of the game so, another great game, another great movie.
Speaker 3:Bull dorum is a kevin costner picture. Right there, he's in both of them, right so. And sus Susan Sarandon, okay, and Tim Robbins, her husband, and the premise behind the movie is Tim Robbins is this rookie who can't control his arm, the throwing the ball, and Kevin Costner is the mature end-of-career guy had played in the big leagues, career guy, had played in the big leagues. Now he's there only to get this guy to calm down and focused and to get so he can get called up into the big leagues, sure. And then then there's this love connection between the pitcher and susan sarandon, and also susan sarandon who has the hots for kevin costner, um, but there's some of of the best movie lines in a comedy. That, yeah. So that's my favorite.
Speaker 2:It's on my list. So now that you've given me that much information, I'll have to look it up on Netflix or Amazon or something and watch that soon. Watch that soon. I think that's actually part of the reason Kevin Costner got called for Love of the Game was because he was the only person the producers could think of that would be able to do what that part asked for. But it just that's one of those that I think of oftentimes. There's so many wonderful life lessons in a lot of those movies that are. You know, I almost think sometimes we should just kind of abandon a lot of what we do in school today and just show movies and then have discussions about them afterwards. You know we would. We would grow better people, I think. Overall.
Speaker 3:Well, you know it's true because casting for that, I'm assuming Tim Robbins did play baseball because he did have good form as a pitcher. It's kind of like Charlie Sheen in that movie Major League. Charlie Sheen pitched baseball and was a pitcher in baseball in high school. Okay, so he knew so anyway. But yeah, it's funny how it works out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so all right, jim. Jim, if I call you Kavanaugh, to please extend some grace. I don't know why, but ever since I've seen your name, jim, carlo, for whatever reasons, when I think about you I think Kavanaugh and I said so. If that's it just, you know, slowly throw your fist out and say, raul, my name is Carlo, ok, and I think I'll get it then All right.
Speaker 3:Actually, actually, I won't say a word. You're way too polite. Actually, I won't say a word, they'll be just fine. You're way too polite. My brother, chris, was two years older than me and I went through life following him in school and we looked a lot alike at those ages and I got called Chris an awful lot, yeah, so it's okay.
Speaker 2:With a name like Raul LaBrush. I try to be more sensitive about names than that. I can't tell you how many permutations of Raul LaBrush I've heard over the course of my lifetime. So, jim, I'm really fascinated and excited, I guess, to talk about. You have your sheet that you put out and those of you that I know I never said any of this. Let me go back a little bit here to explain a little bit about who Jim Carlo is. Jim's an accomplished business strategist, a speaker and an author. He has successfully driven explosive growth for health care organizations, from startups to industry leaders. Jim is a trusted expert in building high performing teams, revitalizing underperforming businesses and guiding organizations through transformational change. Now, that's tough to live up to, but what's missing in that? What got you to that point, john, that you became that person with 30 years of experience?
Speaker 3:Probably luck and hard work. You know, one of the things my dad always said to us is you may not be the best at what you do, but if you work the hardest at what you do, people will notice that. And I've had a number of people who have worked for me who have said you work way too hard. And then I have my wife who says I don't work hard enough, but I'm just kidding. She walked in the door a little while ago so she probably heard that is throwing a pocket towards my direction.
Speaker 3:You're going to pay for that. So don't worry, I'll pay for that. But but it's, it's really, but it's really hard work. And one of our children recently got promoted and he works at Hewlett Packard and he's a director at the age of 34. Wow, and I was congratulating him and saying you know, your work ethic, you know, is very notable. And he said but, dad, I got that from you. He said I never liked doing homework, but I saw you doing homework every night. And he said, and I'm looking at my dad, saying, well, my dad's doing work, homework. I guess I should be doing school homework. Yeah, and anyway, so that apple didn't fall far from the tree. But I am blessed with a great wife and three great children. The children are all off the payroll, they are all off the cell phone bill, they're all off the health insurance. So we did our job.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the world. So let's talk about the six pillars of effective leadership. I looked at that list integrity, focus, empathy, compassion, humor, stability, compassion, humor, stability. And right away, the first word out of the gate with that listing, integrity strikes me as something that is woefully lacking, woefully lacking in many aspects of our nation right now. And it's not political finger pointing, it's just, uh, almost the the new normal right now is that integrity at least what I've always thought of integrity as being is now relative or something, because you can. You can twist it, shape, shape it, mold it, and you're still being a person of integrity.
Speaker 2:But integrity to what or with what kind of thing? So I actually wanted to look it up. I looked up the word because it strikes me that part of why this happens is that people lose a sense of the definition of the word that is being purported to be true and it's just not. Let me find that quick, if I can. Yeah, of course not, of course not. Um, cut all this space out. There we go. Integrity this would have been good to have figured out ahead of time, wouldn't it? Here we go. The steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code, the state of being unimpaired, soundness, the quality or condition of being whole or undivided completeness. That first definition is the one that I guess I always have used or purported to be the meaning of integrity, the steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. So my question to you is in this world today, where the adherence to a strict moral and ethical code has become relative, because the morals and ethics are relative, what does integrity mean anymore?
Speaker 3:Well, I go with the first part of that and that's, you know, sticking. So it's funny because you relate it to the political scene. It really hit me hard. In 19, in november of 1983 okay, the year I graduated college I got elected elected in my hometown to be a city councilman at the age of 23. Holy cow, and shortly after the election, and long before cell phones, the city manager called me, or city administrator called me and asked if I'd come in and have a chat with him. And I went in and I didn't know what Don was going to say, but I knew who he was and had started to get to know a lot of the people who ran the community. And we sat down and we talked for a bit and he congratulated me on winning. He said you know, you're a smart guy, you're going to make a great councilman, you're a great addition to lead this town.
Speaker 3:He said I'm going to ask you one favor and he said I hope you take this favor seriously. He said every night when you go to bed and you put your head on the pillow and right before you close your eyes, I want you to ask yourself the following question Did I do anything today for my own self-benefit at the expense of another individual group of individuals, organization or community? If you answer yes to that question, you need to immediately rethink that day and how and what you're going to do to repair the damage that you cause to those people. I hope you have very few of those days and I hope you have many days when the answer is no. I've asked myself that question every night since November of 1983. It is rare that I've ever said yes To me.
Speaker 3:That's integrity. It's doing. I explain it to people of if you're looking at a roadway and there's a middle, then there's a line in the middle of the road but no traffic. You are always on that center line of the road, never too much to the left, never too much to the right. I also try to teach people who are new to leadership the importance of it, and especially when you're new because you're being measured by everybody around you more critically when you step into either a leadership role or a new role. And if you don't have integrity, you won't have trust with your team. If you don't have trust with your team, they will not believe in you or fully support you and if you were in the military, wouldn't follow you into battle, and so to me, it is the one pillar. To me that is non-negotiable, and my teams, wherever I have been, have understood that, and I've always driven that same pathway.
Speaker 2:And I could not agree with you more, honestly, could not, if I tried, agree with you more. I think where I struggle and maybe this is me just getting thinking about too much of the I don't know what it is the emotional, the spiritual warfare that's going on now. But when I see kids wanting to be influencers, you know that's a job now, apparently an influencer right. And where it falls down for me is that the ethics of doing for others, you know, not doing for me first, doing for others first and trying to keep that center line mentality of, yes, this is good for me, this is going to be good for me, doing for others first and trying to keep that center line mentality of yes, this is good for me, this is going to be good for me, it's good for us, it's good for everybody.
Speaker 2:It seems to have been supplanted by a group of folks in all kinds of places that think that's simpy, you know, you're some sort of a moron. No one gets ahead that way and that selfishness that's you know, me first, thinking, you know, seems to me. It's so utterly obvious that that's the downfall of everything that makes America great to be in that place. And yet I don't't know how do you teach someone that has turned their back on integrity to recognize that you've turned your back on the one thing that will make you a good leader or a leader? It's like every man out for himself.
Speaker 3:I really it's, it's very, it's very difficult and it bothers me sometimes, but what I believe in is if I make my people better, they make me better. Yeah, and there's nothing that I enjoy more than telling somebody your next job awaits you and you're about to be promoted, and it's no different than sending your child off to college or to kindergarten. That feeling of I've accomplished what I set out to do and I made somebody else better.
Speaker 2:Do you ever feel like, if you see someone that is just a bad leader, is in a leadership role and they are just bad at it, they're doing the things that no good leader does? Do you ever feel a need, or have you ever confronted those people and say I don't know how to tell you this, but, um, I'm going to tell you, what you're doing is absolutely antithetical to good leadership, and this is why Is that? What's lacking? Do we need more people that will just stand up and call out bad leadership when they see it?
Speaker 3:I think the problem that we have is, if you do in that leader's personality, you're going to be displaced. Unfortunately, no, I haven't, but I've only worked in my career for two leaders who lacked integrity and I didn't last long. And I, because I would not work in that environment and I encourage people. I was speaking at the University of North Texas in February and I was in a lecture hall. I had about, I'm going to say, 80 or 90 students in them. They were all seniors getting ready towards looking forward to graduation and I was talking about the six pillars and I was talking about the importance of integrity and I was also talking about the importance of being able to enjoy the job that you had and that you know. Life is too short to work for somebody who lacked integrity. And I said you know? And people started asking questions related to work situations and I said you know, we have a. I have a lot that I want to cover today, but I have no plans after this that I want to cover today, but I have no plans after this. If you would like to come up and talk to me or outside in the hallway about your situations, I'd be more than happy to talk through them. Of that 80 or 90 people, 20 people stayed Wow. Of those 20, over half of them had leaders or managers. Most of them worked in retail settings a coffee shop, a dress shop or whatever who lacked integrity, and one was so lacking, I would say, was border criminal person to immediately try to find another position and another job because I was fearful that if left alone with that individual for whatever reason, that something bad could happen. That's how bad I felt. Wow, and it's to me and it's to me. One of the reasons I wrote the book was in mentoring people for 25 years. Integrity has always been the non-negotiable pillar for me but, like you said earlier, it's the one thing that I think is lacking most in what we see around us. And I don't think social media helps us. No, because social media gives people the opportunity to take a stand and go hide, throw a, throw a grenade over the ceiling. You know, attack somebody and go hide and and in the media.
Speaker 3:I stopped watching the news during COVID and it and going back to college. I had a class in college called Contemporary Moral Values. There was no book for the class, no textbook. You had to bring to class the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times or the Washington Post and you had to be prepared to discuss in the class the article and be able to dissect the religious background of the reporter and the political background of the reporter and what they were trying to convince you to believe in. This was in the early 80s Boy. This was in the early 80s Boy and it's the class I remember most and apply daily. Yeah, it's so slanted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think everyone needs at least one philosophy course. The courses I remember the most were my philosophy courses. I think I took three of them as an undergraduate and the guy that taught was. He just made you think about things, which is, I think, perhaps that set.
Speaker 2:The root of all of this is that I like your analogy we just lob bombs over the wall and then go hide, and it doesn't. No one has to take account for or give account for their actions. Um, which is a horrible place to be. Um, you know, you can say anything you want about me, but please say it to my face. You know, I just as soon have an opportunity to not only learn because even in the meanest things there's often some kernel of truth, but there's also an opportunity for me to make some sort of amends if needed. There's an opportunity for me to counterpoint and say well, I understand why you feel, but you understand this. To have a dialogue and we're?
Speaker 2:I honestly think we're a nation of cowards. To have a dialogue and we're, I honestly think we're a nation of cowards all the time. You know, yeah, they just it. So it seems so blatantly obvious to me that you know we're we're just running around, afraid to have arguments that are meaningful and will move us forward. I don't know. I, I, I, I hope. I wish that there was some way for us to come up with a formula for how to change someone with no integrity into a person that has integrity, to make them woefully aware of their lack of integrity so that they come around and see the light. Have you seen anything that happens in your teachings and your teachings where a light goes on in someone's eyes that they were thinking, yeah, kind of looping fast, like loose, like man, don't pin me down, and all of a sudden kind of got it that, yeah, wait a minute, or is that? Does life have to knock that out of us? Do you think?
Speaker 3:I think life has to knock you out of that, and I think sometimes adversity has to is the wake-up call and something happens. You know, I I look at leaders who, um, continually take the next level and or are, every two years, replacing the people at that level below them, and I call that the shuffling of the chairs on the Titanic. And I call it that because eventually that boat is still going to sink. How long can that leader get away with explaining to their board that the issue isn't them, it's the people underneath them who that person hired. That is the problem. I mean, how many times do the chairs have to shift for people to recognize what's going on? Sure, and you know, unfortunately that happens a fair amount. It doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it happen, right, and you know, and you're displacing people that you believed in and probably still believe in, but don't want to admit that you're the problem, right of like lincoln.
Speaker 2:You know he uh, that's the the book about him that they made the movie on. But he, he purposely sought out people in his cabinet that would disagree with him. You know, there he had that, that genius about him that said I don't want a bunch of people around me that are just going to say, oh yes, mr brethren, oh yes, he wanted people that were going to say that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. You and and challenge him, and he was willing to accept that, you know. Ok, well, tell me why it's the stupidest idea you've ever heard. He wasn't afraid of it, he wasn't a coward about hearing about his own lack of thinking through something completely.
Speaker 2:Do you find that that's a measure of a level of people's integrity? That they surround themselves with people that they're vulnerable, transparent enough with that they can say you're right, I screwed up. I think of my wife. I mean my wife, god, god bless her. You know, 39 years has put up with me number one, but she has also never wavered from being a woman of integrity and, you know, being willing to call me when I have totally screwed up or when I have not done what I said I was going to do you know, and I was angry about it, you know, partly because she caught me in it and partly because I knew, damn it, she was right, you know kind of thing, and I think that that's what makes us better. You know, you get to a certain point and realize you know well, dummy, you figure it out right. Get to a certain point and realize you know well, dummy, you'll figure it out right. Is that what's missing in some of these folks?
Speaker 3:Like you can't force people to keep people around that they don't want around, though, can you? You can't. And I kind of make the analogy. It's like the store worker who takes a dollar out of the drawer today and tomorrow it's $2, and then it's $5, and then it's two dollars, and then it's five dollars, and then it's ten dollars, and you know. And then eventually they get caught and it's no different, you know. Then they're in a world of hurt and that wake-up call happens and they they're facing you know, a judge or something else, or they've done something worse. And then all of a sudden, they realize I, I don't have a choice anymore. Well, I do have a choice. I can go to prison and I can be the person that I, that I that I am, or I can try to be better and learn how to be different. Um, in that environment, and come out stronger right, but you know it's everywhere we turn.
Speaker 3:You know, I stopped watching the news before covid or during covid because I couldn't believe anything. I didn't believe what I was, what I was hearing, and I didn't believe. It didn't make sense to me, and different stations had different opinions on things. And you know, I own, and to this day I, if I watch the news, I'm watching it for the weather and the sports scores, and I really, because there's very few good news stories in the news or in the press and we're bombarded with negativity, we're bombarded with disaster on the left, disaster on the right, and and and we don't often show the good in the world. Yeah, and that's missing too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's why, when I started to write the book and I started to write, integrity was number one on my list. I was like you know, this is the mountain that I have to stand on, it's so important to me. But if, if, I can impact 20 people and those people can impact 20 people. And I mean, I'm not going to change the world, I don't intend to, I don't have the time to, I'm too old, but the reality is I at least can know that I've left the place better than I found it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my dad told me, I think, when I was just out of college. He said he had a spike that he took out of his pocket and it was an older, like railroad kind of spike but much thinner. You know the type, like a square nail, which I I haven't seen that anymore that we may make those. But, um, I said you know he pans out and he says, look at that. And I'm like okay, yeah, and said I carry that around because there was a guy that I believe in that hung on a cross, on something similar to that, a lot bigger.
Speaker 2:And I think about how that person did what he did, because he believed that in all of that, that it was going to make things better for everyone else. He knew that was what he needed to do and he did it. He said that reminds me that I need to do it in my life is to just try to do whatever I can, to believe whatever I can, can to do the best that I can for the people around me, and that the worst thing they'll be able to say after I'm dead is that, yeah, he was kind of an idiot, but you know he made the world a better place. He tried. He tried to make it a better place. I don't know that there's much more noble ambition than that, honestly. But so integrity, integrity, integrity. Boy, anyone listening there, if you know six people or twenty people, tell them about integrity and tell them about Jim's book that they need to read about that because it's the number one thing we can talk about. One other thing, because we're going to run out of time here before you know it.
Speaker 3:You know what that means. You know what that means when we run out of time. I have to come back.
Speaker 2:I was hoping. Oh god, thank you, god, thank you. He said that, yes, I was, because we're only going to get through like half of this next one too. Um, focus is one I I can come back to it some more time because as an actor, as a trained actor, I I have stories to tell about focus too and how how critical it is to really getting anything done and accomplishing anything of real merit.
Speaker 2:But empathy was the word that jumped out to me next, and I see there's so much going on now in leadership training and you know, throughout you see all kinds of empathy workshops and whatnot, and part of that is a little bit bothersome to me because it it's, uh, to monitor, to monetize empathy seems to me to be kind of like you know what happened to christmas, you know it just, um, and it it concerns me because empathy, again, I think, is something that you you learn by going through tough things, really really tough, and enduring through them and trying to find in the midst of it either the meaning that was there, or accepting that you won't find any meaning and just waiting for perhaps the meaning comes later.
Speaker 2:But the most critical element for me has always been that you learn how to be softer to the next person that comes along, because you're not seeing it just as a and I'll pour them. You're feeling it with them, you're in that you go back to being in that same place or a like place, and it allows a level of communication, a level of interaction that just doesn't happen otherwise. So what brought you to wanting to make empathy? It's a number three thing in the list, but it could probably be one or two sometimes.
Speaker 3:So I'll tell you a story. So early in my career I lacked compassion and I lacked empathy, but I had a situation in the early 2000s. I worked for a technology company and I had a group of software developers and support people in Oakland, california, that were maintaining a piece of technology that was old green screen capabilities. You remember those days?
Speaker 2:Yeah, character-based interfaces.
Speaker 3:Yes, and we were developing Windows-based interfaces. Woo, yes, so, and we were developing Windows-based capabilities to replace it. Okay, and we were at the point where we had introduced the Windows capabilities and we were about to introduce the second generation of the Windows capabilities and we had made the corporate decision that we were going to force people to convert to a Windows platform and get rid of the green screen. And I had the privilege of having to tell the people that their jobs would be going away over how I was going to present it to them, because I had to be able to convey to them that I couldn't afford for them to all walk out the door, because we had customers to support, because the implementation timeframe is 8 to 18 months on the new technology and we had to support these customers. So I walked in and I made them three promises. First promise I will give you as much notice as I feasibly can and as far in advance as I can. So if I know customer X is converting in January 1 of next year guess what? You have eight months notice. If I know it's six months, you have six months notice. If I know it's six months, you have six months notice. So that was commitment number one. Commitment number two if you want to learn the new technologies and and get education on how to support them or how to code for them or how to do whatever for them so that you can move from where you are today to those that department over there, I will provide that access to that knowledge and education during the workday between now and when your departure date is. That was commitment number two. Commitment number three if you didn't want to walk work still commitment number two if you wanted to stay with the company and you didn't want to go to the new technology, I would personally help you find a new job within our company that you're suited for. That you can succeed at. Third commitment If you decided you didn't want to stay with the company, when it's your time to go, I will also personally help you during that period of notice and when it's the end of time and help you get a job on the outside of the organization that's right for you that you can succeed at.
Speaker 3:My sole goal was to ensure that nobody quit before it was time for them to leave. I achieved that goal. About six months later I get a call from HR to come in. They want to come and speak to me and the woman from HR came down and sat down in my office and her boss my boss wasn't with her, so I knew I wasn't getting fired and she said I have the results from the employee satisfaction survey and I want to talk about your team in Oakland, california, and I said how bad is it?
Speaker 3:She said that's the problem. They have the highest satisfaction score out of the entire organization and we have 20,000 employees and the second tier happiest employees was a significant drop below where they scored. Why do you have a department that you're laying off have such a high score? And I said I don't know. And she said well, what are you doing? And I said I made them three promises and she said what were those promises? And I told her and she said you couldn't have done it any better. And do you know, I saw that through its transition and everything. And then it really surprised me. I was not expecting that.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I'm listening to you tell the story of what you did and thinking as a person.
Speaker 2:If I was in one of those positions and you, you presented my options to me that way, there would be no way you left no out for a person to feel sorry for themselves. You really didn't, which is and it wasn't like you were contriving it. I mean that would not work, that presentation would not work if they sensed any ingenuity in you. So again we go back then to integrity, that you had to have displayed to them, a level of integrity that they knew that they could take what you were saying at face value and take it to the bank, if you will. So that's a wonderful, wonderful story of what is sorely lacking.
Speaker 2:People want to come and talk to me about making America great. Again, america has always been great, thank you very much. And you can look internationally at all the things that we've done over history. We have always been great. And that that kind of story, that kind of situation, that kind of individual, to have been able to be raised up in our nation and be able to do what you did with those people that's what makes America great, that's what's always made America great, is that willingness to think about others and put yourself in their place and try to do what you can for them. That will help instead of banging them down. Yeah, but that's very encouraging. Jim, thank you for that story. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that every single place we possibly can, and in as many ways as we can, because it gives people hope. That's it, that's the hope. Right Is to have that.
Speaker 3:That gives me hope that I can get past this horrible thing because I have options now right, correct, correct, and that I would get, and nobody's going to be told that their job is over on Friday, right, right.
Speaker 2:That's that uncertainty is what makes people freak out. You know, look at all the uncertainty right now and how it's. I believe honestly that all of that is freak out. You know, look at all the uncertainty right now and how it's. I.
Speaker 3:I believe honestly that all of that is engineered to make people more maneuverable or oh, absolutely and vulnerable, and to say, hey, I'm, how do I not know, I'm not. Next, I need to update my resume. I need to, and I bet if they, if somebody looked at the keystrokes on their computers, they're all at search firms trying to get their next job, because nobody wants to be without a paycheck. People don't save, like our parents taught us to save. And when your company, when your country, is in such a debt situation, you say, well, why can't I be in that kind of situation?
Speaker 3:The country doesn't care, but the country is not going to bail you out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to bail the country out. That's going to be the real fun part, you know. So we how you build empathy. Are there exercises or gosh? I was thinking how those two are integrity and empathy are so intertwined with one another, and if we can find ways to build the bridges for people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm actually starting to think of a workshop for the pillars that will include a lot of situational role plays, where people get a situation and they have to think through it and come up with a plan. And because you know, until you experience them, you can't read a book about solving, you know, empathy problems or compassion problems, people can tell you this. You have to show more caring. Okay, what's that mean? Until they practice it and until they experience it, and until they, you know they're not. That's why I always say you know, leadership is a never ending development role. It it's constantly changing and you're, you're constantly changing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that whole idea of dispelling the myth of you're not born a leader, you create a leader, you know, you, you work towards being a leader um, is very, very true. That's been my experience too. You just the leaders, the best leaders I know are ones that got knocked down and got up and knocked down and got up and, you know, thought through how are we going to not do this again? You know type of thing. So, folks, my guest this week has been Jim Carlo, or Kavanaugh, depending on who you're talking to in my brain. So Jim is a experienced leadership mentor. I'm calling that. If you had to give your elevator speech, how would you? How do you introduce yourself to people?
Speaker 3:Jim. I'm a corporate leader who believes in developing others' ability to lead for the future.
Speaker 2:That works. That works for me. It's an elevator speech. I probably won't remember it the next time we talk because I'll be thinking about all the things I want to ask you about. But, Jim, it's been such a pleasure talking with you, getting to know you. I will look forward to figuring out another time to get together to carry on our conversation. I hope you've enjoyed yourself as well.
Speaker 3:I I have this was a lot of fun. It was. This has been a great exchange, and it's these great exchanges are good, because you may not get through everything you want to, but you go deep in so many things. People can really grasp on to what actually we're talking about. I hope so.
Speaker 2:I hope so. So I will look forward with bated breath as we say in the theater to our next conversation here on Frame of Reference Profiles in Leadership. Thank you.
