Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Real Voices, Paid Protest
What if paying protesters made movements more honest instead of less? We sit down with Adam Swart, CEO of Crowds on Demand, to unpack how compensated advocacy actually works, why protests are context builders rather than public headcounts, and how to navigate a media ecosystem that rewards outrage over nuance. Adam pulls back the curtain on strategy: where you rally, what you say, and how you craft visuals—all to reach the second audience that never shows up in person but decides what trends tomorrow.
We trace the arc from personal discipline and leadership ideals to modern persuasion. Adam shares why he sees compensation as the backbone of professionalism, how underdogs can outmaneuver entrenched money with smarter tactics, and what it takes to ask questions that bridge divides instead of hardening them. We examine the algorithms that keep us scrolling, the sensationalism that books TV guests, and the practical habits that help anyone spot manipulation: contextualize numbers, interrogate claims, and talk with people who don’t vote like you.
Adam also breaks down one of his most visible projects—the Delete Facebook movement—and the ripple effects it helped catalyze, from brand repositioning to political ad shifts. Then we go bigger: a candid call to challenge Big Food’s engineered addictions and the unequal health burden they create. If you care about civic power, media literacy, and how ideas win attention in 2025, this conversation offers a blueprint you can use—whether you’re organizing a cause, leading a team, or just trying to think more clearly in a noisy world.
If this episode challenged you or gave you a new lens, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more curious listeners find us.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:Well, welcome everyone to another edition of Frame of Reference, Profiles and Leadership. And uh I I gotta tell you, you know, I every once in a while I get to do a show that is even a bit above the normal wonderful guests that I get, the people that are interested to talk to. Because this time my guest is uh I think he and I are a little bit more like kindred spirits in some ways. So it should should be fun. Um, but uh my guest today is Adam Swart, who is the CEO of a company called Crowds on Demand, right, Adam? I'm getting that right. Right, okay, right. Adam, tell our audience in in a frame of reference who who is Adam Swart? If we were to stop someone on the street and say, Who is Adam Swart? What would they say?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think they'd probably say, Who is Adam Swart? Because I have never heard of his name. So not that famous.
SPEAKER_00:So this is a humility lesson, too, on top of it all.
SPEAKER_02:So but if you were to Google me, you'd probably find that I uh founded this company called Crowds on Demand. Uh, that's probably what I'm best known for in life. I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But um, I'm best known for founding a company called Crowds on Demand. And that company is best known for being a one-stop resource for creating advocacy groups, publicity, and probably best known of all, uh, protesters. Okay, right. So we have become very famous in one way or another, the company, not myself, but the company for providing protesters, right? Right. And compensating protesters and being very direct about the fact that we offer compensation to protesters to attend protests that they agree with. So if you ask who is Adam Swart, um, from a Google standpoint, that's who I am. Obviously, I'm a human being. Um, although on the internet, there are theories, uh, Roel, that uh I'm AI, I'm not actually a real person. Me too. Me too. I do. Yeah, no, no. Well, you just never know sometimes. A lot of people say, uh, he's he's not a real person. It's a made up name, and it's like, okay, well, that's that's what you think of. That's very interesting. I always say they're like, oh, his skin looks too smooth. I'm like, well, you're you're really just giving a compliment to my skincare regimen.
SPEAKER_01:So right.
SPEAKER_02:I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um so so basically, uh, that's what I'm known for. That's probably why I'm on the program uh from your end. Um, I just actually always like to do this when I go on podcasts, is I like to be very upfront about why I am on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I appreciate that. Uh, I'm not sure why I am on the podcast myself, but that's okay. I get to talk to you, so that's fun.
SPEAKER_02:So it's a fair question because you never know sometimes wire someone, are they trying to get publicity? Are they trying to get new business? I have one major reason for going on these podcasts. Number one, to make it clear, because there's so much misinformation that's been spread about my business, that what we do and what we don't do, right? So there's so much misinformation about crowds on demand that we engage in illegal activity, we engage in riots, like you know, that we're we're, you know, providing uh crisis actors. I mean, there's just like a web of conspiracy theories out there. And by me coming out there, I'm hoping to uh you know put a dent in that um and have them meet me and and understand what it is that we do. And then the second part is to kind of help understand, even if you don't think I'm some crazy, like triple agent, uh crisis actor, organizer, conspiracy person. Well, okay, well, then I still think what he does is wrong. Okay, well, I want to unpack that and have people at least understand our our perspective on how commentating people is actually what you'd expect in in any kind of occupation, and and it doesn't actually make the discourse less genuine. So those are two reasons why I kind of have been doing a few podcasts here and there is to have that conversation. And um uh so I just like to be very upfront about why I'm doing it, but of course I'm happy to talk about anything under the sun.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, and and it is weird because you are in, and and this may be part of the dispelling the uh perception of things, but you are in a a business, if you will, that is uh can be used for kind of uh a moral gray area. You know, I'm sure I'm happy to hear that you know you're saying that you are hiring people, but you're hiring people that believe in the causes that they are actually going to be paid to be a part of. So, in some ways, that that's not that different from me getting paid to be a judge for a drama contest. I mean, I would likely go anyways just to see, you know, the kids performing, but it's really nice to get paid to be there.
SPEAKER_02:It's more likely you go. It's more likely you go. That's the thing, yeah, is that as uh being paid is a way of ensuring professionalism and effectiveness, right? Of what you're doing. For example, if you're uh someone on the on the left and and you get in trouble, would you like to hire an attorney who's also on the left, right? Right, probably, but that you'd still be paying that attorney on the left or vice versa if it was on the right. So I think being paid is a good thing when you're doing something that is helpful to somebody. But um I I actually uh recently I hate the idea of people doing free labor because I think it's kind of slavery, actually. I was at a Grateful Dead concert the other night, and I saw these volunteers and they're cleaning up all the trash. And I'm like, with what they charge us to go to this concert, they can't afford to pay people to pick up trash. They they're making their fans pick up trash for free. Like to me, that seems morally wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, anyway, yeah, that's that's exploitive in the worst kind, right? You're gonna take somebody's appreciation for something, and yeah, you can do this, you can help with cleaning up the trash. So, because that'll that'll save us money on not having to pay for trash picker uppers, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Right, when your fee for this concert must be in the six or seven figures, presumably. Yeah, yeah. So um, so so that's I guess the point.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent. So, well, I think I warned you a little ahead of time that uh we like to start out with a section called My Favorite Things. One of these days, Adam, maybe I'll be able to pay for Julie Andrews or a facsimile to sing that song as we start this big part of the show, kind of like Jeopardy's dun dun dun dun. I don't have that kind of money yet, so it's uh the copyright alone, the BMI licensing would be cost prohibitive. But we just this is just I'm gonna throw out some things. This is really Roshaktian. You don't have to worry about right or wrong. If you, you know, it's best if it just comes off the top of your mind. So we get to know the real Adam Schwart. Okay. Ready? So here we go. How about the favorite place you like to go to to de-stress?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, uh the tennis court number one. Okay. Uh, it's very relaxing playing tennis because you don't have your phone with you, right? Um, uh there's very few activities in life where you don't have the phone constantly tethered to you. And I don't know, maybe there are people who play with their phone in their pocket. I you can't probably play very well. So it's a way of basically saying you're completely focused on the point, and not only on the point, you got to really keep your eye on the ball metaphorically, but but literally. Yeah. So I really enjoyed that as a as one way to just kind of focus on something and not be constantly distracted.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's interesting because I grew up in the 60s and the 70s, and we we never would have thought about making sure we went somewhere so we could always be available. I mean, that that is part of the stress of today. I, you know, really think is to that we we can't seem to accept the fact that the world will go on fine without me for a bit, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think like that's just one minor pushback to that one benefit of the phones, and I'm not here to shelter phones by any uh mean, but uh is the idea of like it used to be in in the time that you referenced, you might have to just sit at your office eight to six, yeah, because maybe somebody calls and you want to be there.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Whereas you uh you know, I could be on the tennis court and you know, I might check my phone every you know few games here and there, right? And if there's something really important that required my attention, I could apologize to the person I'm playing with and and and attend to that, but that's very that doesn't normally happen, right? You know, so I'm out there playing tennis instead of not being able to. So you know, I I see it both ways, but I think most people have taken it to the phones to an like another degree where they sit, they check it because of work, but they stay on it because of the social media, the news media, the all of that sort of thing. They have to be connected, they can't consume responsibly, you know what I mean? One drink a day, right? And right, you know, keep your phone under like an hour or so a day would be great, like in the sort of non-work department. That's my opinion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, even the social media stuff, right? You know, we we live under the I I think kind of a delusion that we're gonna miss something. We're gonna miss something really important if we're not, you know, on Facebook or on, you know, in Instagram, whatever. You know, you're it's just great.
SPEAKER_02:Believe me or not, the stuff that I get fed on. I'm only on Twitter, um, but uh the stuff that I get fed is just just total garbage most of the time. So yeah, not not no need. And they also feed you rage bait, like they feed you stuff that they think you're going to like rage against because they want to get you fighting with other people, right? I mean, the algorithms are brilliant. I mean, they they've studied all human behavior. I mean, Twitter and Facebook, I mean, these companies have been around like decades, right? So they have all the data from all of the years that they've been in business, they know exactly what keeps you on there longer, that keeps you buying, that keeps you raging. You know, these companies are sick, frankly. They are sick.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you wonder too, you know, does does anyone that's at the helm of those companies, are any of them thinking of the endpoint that they're driving people towards? You know, are they are they conscious of those?
SPEAKER_02:Very much dis dystopian. Yeah. Um, so like there was this really creepy ad a few years ago uh by Facebook that was showing like these like these like dolls and like uh that were like they were live, they were like miserable, but they were living their whole life through virtual reality, and their virtual reality was happy. So yeah, so it I mean, what what what they see as their ends is actually dystopian and evidenced by the fact that if you look at, I mean, we're off on a tangent here, that Elon is plotting Mars, another planet, and Mark Zuckerberg has basically like a bunker in his Hawaii estate, right, in Hawaii, right? So these people who own these oligarchs who own these companies have exit plans and it doesn't include the rest of us. So yeah, so so yeah, so if you actually want to like see it in a really dark way, they don't really care about helping humanity at all.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is unfortunate because you think if if everyone else is gone and it's just left, all that's left are the oligarchs. I mean, for the most part, those are not fun people to be around. And you get a whole bunch of them together and they're all jockeying for who's you know, they're all they're all jockeying.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and the the so so like if you talk about the like the oligarchs, that's kind of how they think. And I think the one level down, they're just focused on the money, you know, the money that they're getting paid is is quite a lot, right? And and they're like, hey, let's just do that. And I'm not really concerned about the long-term implications of what we're doing, sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, yeah. That's just unconscionable to me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, this is supposed to be a rapid fire thing, and I gave you like a very long answer.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, that's that you know, that's what I mean about organic conversations. They go where they're gonna go. So I I prompted you too. So I I can't, you know, I I was contributing. How about a favorite historical personality? Is there somebody that you really look back on and admire?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, there's there's too many. I mean, the the Detroit answer would be someone like Abe Lincoln, right? But but I I don't know about that. Um, I would say um I I've I'm a big fan of Teddy Roosevelt. Um you know, I would say that Teddy Roosevelt brought America into the era of being on top of the world. If it weren't for him and his internationalist outlook, um the United States may have remained a regional power at least for a long time. And Teddy Roosevelt had a real global outlook on the world, and he uh saw America as a force in the world. So I uh and in addition to that, I also think he uh he balanced the need of speaking of the oligarchs, right? He dealt with the rail barons, right? At the time, the rail barons were uh what those tech barons are today, yeah, right? And they were they had so much power, and uh Teddy Roosevelt, who was a capitalist, but he knew he feared kind of like the the uh the early stages of communism, right? And he knew that if these oligarchs were able to oppress the people so much you he would the people would eventually rebel. So he tried to essentially balance the needs of the labor unions with the needs of the um the of the business community. And I feel like he he may have stalled uh the uh the kind of uh inception of communism in the United States. So I think like between the international outlook and the balance between business and um sort of people, uh I I really admire the man.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's interesting too, because we we talk about leadership a lot, right, with with this podcast, but um I always think of people and their their character and their background. And he's such an interesting product of having been a sickly kid, you know, and just having all kinds of health issues and having a dad who, you know, drove him to be physically able, um, you know, running up and down cliffs or whatnot, you know, to to really push him to be more than he was. And I I sometimes wonder if that wasn't part of the reason that he did become such a global visionary, is because he he knew from his own personal experience what was possible when you pushed yourself more. And uh, you know, they translated that into uh his his roles, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right. And yeah, no, that that I did not know about the running up the cliff, but I like that because it's a especially if you have challenges, it's a good, it's it's actually a great test. That's actually it's funny that you mentioned it because I didn't know about it. But actually, when I kind of started like getting into running myself, was I started hill running. Um, because there's some accomplishment of I'm summoning this hill. There's a definitive end in sight, and you're summoning it. So that's kind of a little bit of a tangent. But yeah, Teddy Roosevelt is a great leader. I mean, of course, history is filled with them. I mean, the one thing that he doesn't have that I do try to look at, and not enough of them have is the willingness to sacrifice themselves or their own gain for what they think is right. Yeah, and there are very, very few leaders that will do it. Not that every leader should be expected to do that, you're out, but to actually say, I'm going to do what is right, even though I know it's going to cost me this election, I know it's going to cost me whatever it is, is politically. Yeah. Right. And not many leaders will do that. And I I I struggle to think of examples of high profile ones.
SPEAKER_00:It is, yeah, it is hard because you you you just don't see that sense of character anymore in a lot of people. Um, and that that is the if there was ever was a time where we needed people to be like that, um, you know, to practice uh a code of moral, ethical, um, you know, responsible behavior, um boy, now now is the time. Um how about let's do some quick fire stuff. How about favorite color? Blue. Uh how about favorite food?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I would say uh when I kind of eat every day is like a kale salad with chicken, maybe some like pizza on the side, like rotisserie chicken. Okay. Uh, but if I had to pick a favorite cuisine for like going out, it would definitely be Middle Eastern food. I love like swarma hummus, um, like any of that, you know. And I don't, I'm not particular. Like I've been to Israel restaurants, I've been to Palestinian restaurants, I'm not getting involved. I like them all.
SPEAKER_00:So you're not like Tony Stark who didn't know what shawarma was and made the vendors go with him.
SPEAKER_02:There's something about swarma and Middle Eastern food is that even though it's fattening, it's like you don't feel crappy afterward. It's like just a really the best food I've ever had has been on my trips to Israel, to Jordan, and to Lebanon.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:They have just amazing food over there.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. How about uh favorite recipe? Seeing as we're talking about food.
SPEAKER_02:Uh well, I mean, my cooking skills are are limited personally. So what I tend to make when I'm charged to make like a cooked meal is fajitas. Uh, but I I try to do it like in a fairly healthy way of uh cutting up a ton of peppers, um, uh, you know, guacamole, you know, uh wild rice. Um uh I don't like onions, so I do not put onions. I know you're kind of supposed to do onions in it. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:I'm French. You can't not like onions. I'm sorry, this interview is concluded.
SPEAKER_02:So so a little some herbs, and then you put um, you know, what I actually do is you you put some spinach in there too, uh, some really good homemade salsa. Well, homemade that I buy from somewhere else. Um I don't make it much, but homemade like I appreciate your honesty. So and so yeah, that that's kind of my go-to dish and have it with some really good uh homemade tortillas.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, how about your your kryptonite, your thing that kind of that uh what do they call it, that sinful pleasure or that you know that thing that boy, if it's around you gotta eat it unlow, you know it's not good for you, and boy, you know. Cinnamon rolls. Cinnamon rolls? Any particular brand or or place?
SPEAKER_02:Uh it has to be like the homemade kind, like uh not the cinnamon kind, like the really homemade kind with a lot of cinnamon on them.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, if you ever come to the Sock Prairie area in Wisconsin, I know just the bakery for you. There's uh a woman that runs a small bakery, she makes it herself. Um, and uh she makes a thing called a Cinnar Cinnabon or Cinnarole, which is you know, with uh with the SIN as the favorite movie? Uh Forrest Gum.
SPEAKER_02:Really? Hey, good good choice. I I'm I'm kind of a history buff, so I love his store, uh history, and I also love overcoming challenges. Yeah, it was just a really it's just a sweet movie, yeah. Um and like that that takes you through an America, a changing America, right? But in the most positive way possible. It was it's it's real, it's positive. He had obstacles and he over he overcame them, but his simple look on life. I mean, like I I love um the his one line from it where where he he invested in Apple, I think, and and this was even before Apple is what it is, right? But he invested in Apple and he made a ton of money. And he was like, Mama, we don't need to worry about uh they told him you don't need to worry about money anymore. And he said, Well, that's great, that's one less thing to worry about.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and it's just it's I I got that checked off now. Good deal. Yeah, no, I would agree. Forest Gump is a fantastic movie. I it was interesting to see uh Robert Zimikis and he and Robin Wright all got together. Uh uh, Tom Hanks got together again to do the home movie. I don't know if you've seen Home. Oh it just came out uh in Christmas, November, Christmas uh December of last year, and uh fascinating film, another one of those with just a good story um and just a very unique. He he did one camera location, and the entire thing happens from that one camera.
SPEAKER_02:Honestly, I I rarely go rarely go to the movies. Okay, rare. There's not really much good. I do not like superhero movies at all. I oh really not just I never watch them. I hate superhero movies. I hate um they're so stupid.
SPEAKER_00:What is it? Oh, you do you hate the stupidity of it, or is there is there something particular?
SPEAKER_02:And I think I'm a little bit of a contrarian, so maybe because everybody loves them, I'm like, this is just so stupid. Like, like it'll but it also kind of feeds into this that there's some superman who will save us, some person with crazy powers, and it's all gonna be great as opposed to saying the powers within ourselves, you know. Sure. Um, like like what I like about Forest Gub. By the way, the other person, uh, you mentioned a few of the people who are in Forrest Gub who were great, but of course, Sally Field was amazing, one of the greatest.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the thing, right? He had a mom that was like Sally Fields, and that was part of the biggest reason why he succeeded. So yeah, about that. But that's interesting. I, you know, I and I uh the the superhero movies have appealed to me, but I also see the mythology that's behind them, you know. So to me, they're not as much about the superpowers as they are about the archetypical uh people that they represent. That we've as you know, people have had those kinds of you know mythological beings forever. You know, Superman is nothing but you know Hercules and Zeus and you know a whole bunch of other Greek gods thrown together into one pot. That's very true. So uh how about do you have a favorite recording artist?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, uh I've I love Eminem's earlier work from the 90s. Um, yeah, I uh I love Eminem. Uh he's a great uh I I like people who can rap about cause, but then it it kind of just in a very subtle way, um, but also just have a great beat. So, you know, like with Eminem's Without Me, which I'm maybe I'm getting it wrong, maybe it's 2001, but late 90s, early 2000s. Okay. Um that that era of Eminem is just amazing. But you know, many, many others on on that list. Um and I try I also honestly listen to a lot of classical music too to relax.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have a particular classical artist that you composer? Who?
SPEAKER_02:Mozart's by Mozart's my favorite.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Mozart, Mozart, Bach, um, all of those are um even bigger.
SPEAKER_02:They're all amazing artists, but I think it's the the grace and smoothness and the uplifting tone of Mozart's music that I like the most.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Makes sense. So do you like his contemporaries to handle and the like, or is it really Mozart's like Mozart, uh Hayden uh I like and Chopin.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I love Chopin's um uh piano uh work the best. Um like his piano um work is is amazing. Um I think he uh I think there's one that's called like the three marches and or three waltz, and yeah, uh Chopin is is is amazing as well. So yeah, but I I listen to a lot of that. But I mean I enjoy all classical, but Mozart for kind of broadly and Chopin for piano in particular.
SPEAKER_00:What's interesting when you hear Mozart too, you you know immediately that's Mozart, you know, and Bachet to me is the same way too, and can tell, oh, that's Bachet. I don't remember, but you know, it's part of the Goldberg, you know, variations, but uh, I don't remember which one or whatever. Yeah, I get it. How how about this is the I I love to wrap up with this question, but um, do you have a a favorite memory or a something that will spark that favorite memory that when you think of the thing or see the thing or smell the bread or you know, whatever it may be, that it takes you back to a time, a place, you know, just a group of people sometimes um that is just uh you know a pleasant place to go back to, and you know, you find that you you you kind of wish you could go back and maybe do some things, or you just want to you want to relive those moments again.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's something about the smell of a California morning, you know. If you've I know that you've spent a lot of time in California, but it's uh it gets c it's cold in the morning, even if you have a very hot day. Um, it's it's normally pretty chilly in the morning, especially kind of by the coastal areas. Okay, great. So there's something about the smell of the grass and the clouds and the marine layer that just kind of reminds me of growing up, and uh it's it's so energizing um to wake up with it. I I don't know, there's something about that. I mean, I've spent most of my life in California, okay. Um and it is uh it is like the magic of that place. I mean, if if this were political podcasts, I could get into a lot of things that I don't like about California, but in regards to the weather, um, is just uh perfect. And the being able to have that like morning chill and you know, remembering going to school. And by the way, it's good and bad memories. I mean, there were mornings where I just was like, oh god, why am I up so early going to school? It's 6 a.m. It's like every kid has that just it's my it's my background, you know, and it's I love it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, I I I've lived in LA for a year um teaching at Cal State, and it was uh it was fascinating to me because they we remember one day in particular, it was really cloudy and kind of rainy, and you know, I'm like, oh gosh, cloudy, rainy days. So and I'm kind of bummed to it because that's in Wisconsin, that's you know, like 300 days out of the year, it seems are cloudy and rainy, right? So, but everybody at school, all my students and whatnot, were just like thrilled. They were just so up. And I'm like, what's going on? It's cloudy and rainy outside, kind of dismal. And they're like, Yeah, but it's different. It's always sunny around here, it's different. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_02:And especially I don't know which side of LA, but if it's on the more the east side, downtown of LA, the climate is totally different, right? If you're in Santa Monica, like coastal LA, you get the nice marine layer and the mist a lot. But if you go like east of downtown, um, you're kind of getting more of like almost a desert climate sometimes.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, they you know, the rain when it rains, it is beautiful, but the the city's not really great at dealing with the rain. But yeah, the the beauty of like seeing it, and but then the other thing that it does to LA is um after the rain, you can start seeing the mountains, right? Like you know, there are just so few days. I know that you've seen those postcards of LA that have the mountains in the back, but go to LA. I can count the number of days on my like two hands that where I've actually seen those mountains. It doesn't happen very often, right? Um, so so when it rains a lot, you get to see that you get to see it's like the most much promised view. It's like seeing Mao Fuji from Tokyo, like it's theoretically possible, but but not not normal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Not gonna not gonna happen just by yeah, probably chance is more than likely. So tell me about um the whole journey to um building a company like uh you know, uh you're you're basically crowdsourcing, right? Um how did how did that come to you? Was that you had been a journalist before that, right? Was that something that kind of came out of that experience?
SPEAKER_02:Or um well, I know the media, yeah, you're right. Uh uh I did I know the media and how it works, and and the media has changed, of course, because I've been in business for 13 years, so the media has changed, but even then it was media was always wanting that even then, you had left-wing and right-wing media, and they would always want to cover what they want to cover, right? So if you give people protests, is something to cover, right? Events, publicity stunts, media are desperate for content. And in this world, where it's not just the news networks, it's you know, blog sites, it's social media, and all that, people are desperate for content constantly. And protest is a way of giving people content that they can then use to amplify. So I saw there's a that uh I saw the impact that protests and rallies and and just setting the right context has for being a catalyst for uh, you know, both media attention, but more broadly, like the results that the clients are looking for. Um go ahead, sorry. So so the thing is the one there's kind of one misinterpretation of protests, actually, is that I think a lot of people think of protest as a plebiscite, that is to say, like a poll or a vote. And that's like if there's like 300 people on one side of an issue and 50 people on the other side of the issue, then people are for that issue six to one. But that's not really how I think of protests. I think protest is like an advertiser. What is the goal of an advertiser, right? The goal of an advertisement is to create the right context by which you can then sell your product to people, right? It's to show hey, this is popular, this is high quality, these are the reasons you should kind of think about that product, and then try to get kind of follow up attention. So, uh what a protest is is hey, we want to reach the people that we're kind of. Protesting or rallying in front of. But then we also want to reach the people through social media or media who are not there, right? And amplify that. And it's about getting a ton of attention to allow a cause to grow, or in the case of a PR stunt, you know, the company to grow. Because think about how many ideas have basically died in darkness, right? So many amazing causes, so many amazing companies. They had a good product. They had a good cause, but they never were able to have the budget to essentially evangelize it. And therefore, it basically died. And we are the cure for that.
SPEAKER_00:So you know, I'm I keep thinking of like AI as in some ways a correlative to this because I personally am a fan of AI. I think there's a lot of of good that can come from AI. The the issue that always haunts me though with it, and honestly kind of haunts me with this, is who's pulling the strings behind the dummy? You know, who's who's programming it, who's determining which content gets on and which content does not. Because it, you know, in the world of advertising, in the worlds of AI, the person that is, you know, handling the bank role, if you will, um, oftentimes is the person that that controls the message. So that's right.
SPEAKER_02:That's absolutely right. I mean, if you look at the difference between how grok, which is the Twitter X AI, operates versus ChatGPT versus Google AI, right? They are three AIs, but they have different overlords, right? And they're going to offer operate differently. I mean, you know, I I'm not familiar enough with the science on it um to to go directly into that, but I know how I know that this stuff can be programmed per the request of the overlord, right? Um the overlord being Elon or Google or or Altman or whatever, right? Like these overlords who control all this stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, um, so so you're when you refer to us, right? Um in uh in that context, what I'm saying is, yeah, I mean, if you're saying, hey, money can buy you visibility in the capitalist country of the United States of America, then I 100% agree with you, right? Um the cost of a Super Bowl ad, I believe, is between five and ten million dollars, right? So most companies can't afford a Super Bowl ad. The ones that do get it. And some of them make a ton more money because they were able to do that, right? Um, so yeah, if you're saying that there's some cost to participation, then yes, I guess my point is that, and I and I so I totally submit to that idea. And uh number one, what I would say is actually in comparison to a lot of advertising and other strategies, we actually are cheaper. So we actually give the underdog more of a shot.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um where where if you're going up against an industry that spends fifty, a hundred million dollars plus in lobbying a year, you could spend not an inconsiderable amount of money, but let's just say one or two million dollars to have an extremely effective campaign by us to combat that. Right, right. So I'm not saying that we're doing it for free, but the uh cost difference between what the entrenched interest spends and what the disruptive interest could spend is is huge. So we're actually kind of a force for David against Goliath in many cases. So generally, the entrenched uh power structures, whether they be the established companies or the established political people, aren't the ones hiring us. Why would you hire us if you're already getting what you want? You're the people who are hiring us are the people who are actually the underdogs more often than not, who are basically they can't compete dollar for dollar in advertising. Right, they can buy more Super Bowl ads, they can hire more lobbyists, but we can do this. And because our message is better, we will win for that reason.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You see what I'm saying? Well, yeah, I mean, you're getting people that don't have nearly the financial resources a fighting chance, if you will. Um I think I I'm I'm thinking too of the the issue of uh what's the old Mike Mark Twain saying, you know, uh believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. Um, you know, and it it it comes down to, you know, I I sometimes I I worry uh I guess what I really worry about is that there are malevolent, you know, we've talked about a little bit before that we there are malevolent forces that really don't care, you know, the dystopian future that they are leading, you know, a good chunk of people towards, they just don't care, you know, that who's gonna suffer in the midst of that. So are there things that you think the the average person should be aware of or can teach themselves to be aware of, to have the critical thinking process that's necessary to say, now wait a minute, this is purposefully trying to get me to a rage, you know, portion where I my my emotions are so involved that they just kind of take away reason from the whole nine yards, you know, that so that you would recognize, hey, wait a minute, I I am being manipulated, just like I'm being manipulated when there are beautiful girl pictures on every search engine that I go to, right? It's they're not they aren't there by accident. So right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, living in the United States, uh any capitalist country, um, is is being that manipulating has a has a negative connotation, but people are always trying to sell you something, yeah, right? Yeah, you're you know, I open up my computer, right? They're trying, there's ads, right? I go on TV, there are ads. I go to my phone, there are ads, right? So a protest is so number one is to understand that a protest is just one form of advertisement, right? It's not it's if you strongly dis so well, I'll give you this example, right? Like people, I hate when people do this on both political sides, right? You have the people on the left are like, uh, oh, you know, two million people what you know turned out to oppose Donald Trump, right? Well, it's like, yeah, 70 million people uh supported Harris in the election, right? 70, 75 million. So yeah, so the fact that two million people turned out, I don't know if it's true or not, but if they did, then it means that um then then that does not mean the country's turning against Trump. That means that those two million people are against Trump, which is believable in the context that 75 million people didn't voted against him, right? Similarly, Trump always fights um oh, there's a hundred thousand people at my rally, two hundred thousand people trying to get in or whatever. It's like, yeah, well, you won 80 million votes. Like, yeah, that doesn't mean that the other side is supporting you, right? So don't so I think one thing that people should do is contextualize and understand, okay, well, just because I see a protest does not mean that is what everybody thinks. Yeah, but instead, what they need to do is critically engage with the subject matter of the protest. Do you agree if somebody is saying you know, 50,000 Palestinians murdered in Gaza, did that happen? Number one, I don't know. I mean, I I'm not aware of the statistics, but did that happen? Do I do I agree with the protesters and and how they see it, or do I feel like there's more to the story? Right? They can unpack that themselves and engage with that themselves, right? Um, and maybe speak to the protesters and and say, well, yes, this happened, but here's my question for you, right? So my my advice to people is engage with the subject matter, don't believe, don't constantly think, oh, well, this number is here and this number is there. So, so they're you know, that's just a misinterpretation of what protest is.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's so it's so weird, too, that um we're we're trained, I think, in a lot of ways, to uh maintain our cognitive bias. You know, I I I'm always pushing people, get outside of your news bubble, you know, because we're we're letting ourselves be informed. It to me, it's like you know, having nothing but a diet of Pop-Tarts. You know, well, a diet of Pop Tarts could be awful, but it's really not that much worse than a diet of nothing other than ramen noodles, you know, when it comes right down to it. So, or you know, a menu of just Brussels sprouts. You know, you could take anything and say, oh, this is this is the only thing that matters. Brussels sprouts are the only, that's the only thing I'm ever gonna eat, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, there the what troubles me is that we're so polarized now because people are being encouraged to just stay with their brand and not understand that, well, there are benefits to other brands too that you know you should consider. And you should consider that everything that you're fed is not necessarily true. You know, there's uh there's not a lot of uh value necessarily in telling people the absolute truth. You know, we're just uh we're not geared towards that. There's a lot of things that you could never accomplish if you told people nothing but the truth, you know.
SPEAKER_02:It's uh challenging because people want there to people want to believe what they want to believe. I mean, uh, I mean, there's all like, for example, the Jesse Smollett um kind of matter, right? Remember that gentleman, right, in Chicago? He was the the African American or part African American actor who said he was kind of out at like 3 a.m. in Chicago and was attacked by Trump supporters who you know called him racial epithets, and it it the whole story didn't really add up, and and it you know, they tr ended up charging him for falsifying this story, but well, the liberal media went with it. And obviously, there's plenty of stories where conservative media has gone with with kind of fake stories too, where it's just like people want to hear that stuff. Um, and um but the other thing is to go outside your social media bubble is is really important, and having friends who disagree with you, with whom you can have political conversations, if you are capable, is a really good thing, and to try to put your sensitivities on hold and listen to what they think about it, yeah. Because if this is your friend, right, you assume you're not friends with a neo-Nazi or a you know Marxist, right? Like, assume that your friend is probably wants a good society just like you do, right? That's why you're friends. I mean, if they were that horrible, you wouldn't be friends with them. But why is it that they see it so differently than me, right? When we both probably want 90% of the same things, right? So I would say, like, listen, and I mean, I've I've many friends on the far left and the far right, and and I get along with them all.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Well, I've always, as an actor, one of the things you learn fairly early on is that no one sees themselves as an antagonist, you know. So you can play, and I have you can play some totally despicable people, you know, that you know, from the outside you look and like, oh my God, you know, gee, the guy makes my skin crawl. But the reality is that that person sees all kinds of things that happened in their life that totally justify the decisions that they've made and totally justify the way that they behave, right? It's just it's the nature of human beings.
SPEAKER_02:So good written show or good written movie, you have a villain who you understand even if you despised, yeah, right. Yeah, and you have to to humanize and say, okay, and and also like you mentioned being an actor, the idea of putting yourself in that person's shoes of okay, I am this person. How do I feel right about that? And most people, unfortunately, really lack that quality. It's my job to do that, by the way, to understand because part of taking on a cause is understanding the alternative viewpoint and to really so that we can effectively advocate, because you can really only effectively advocate a cause if you really thoroughly understand what is making people on the other side be on the other side. And they're not all just corrupt villains, right? There are people who have different perspectives, right? And but you have to put yourself in their shoes. And how did I get from where I started to having this view?
SPEAKER_00:Are there cues in what you do? Do you think that would help to encourage people to listen to one another? Because I I totally agree. I think part of our issue is we we have forgotten how to listen, we've forgotten how to respect that there are differences. Um, I was really lucky. I you know, grew up with a mom and dad that taught me to constantly question everything. You know, we were Roman Catholic, so you know, people that would say, yo, you never question a priest, they were always saying, question the priest, ask them why they do that, you know, and then be like, you know, if it's done respectfully.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. If it's not one from, oh, hi, priest, I assume you're like a child sex offender and a perv and evil and trying to uh strip women's rights away. If you if you start with that's who I assume you are, then that's not gonna get very far.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, um, but if you start with tell me why, I mean, actually, interestingly enough, I was at badge claim, and randomly enough, a nun started talking to me, and I don't know why she was targeted me, but she was talking to me about abortion, and she asked me my views on it, and I said I I tend to be more on the side of letting people do what they want with their bodies, you know, but but I understood her, you know, that she might think otherwise, and I very much respected that that point of view, and um and uh and I uh but but I did ask her, I said, well, as someone who you know has studied uh Christianity a little bit, uh so this is just an example of how you might have these conversations. Um and she initiated, but I did ask her this question as someone who have studies Christianity. My understanding is Christianity does not generally argue for government policy, they argue for personal responsibility and personal decisions, right? So uh while I I respect that you yourself are anti-abortion, why would you would you do not see that your argument is strong by asking the government to ban abortion? To me, it feels like you concede that your argument isn't strong enough to persuade people. If the why not seek to merely to persuade people, right? That was my question to her, is that I have no problem with her arguing, uh trying to convince women not to get abortions. I totally respect that. But the ultimate decision in my mind was that it should be in the woman's decision to do that, right? But I thought we had a very respectful discourse back and forth. I mean, I I kind of disagreed with her position because I tend to not like the government to force people to do anything, you know, and I tend to believe in the power of argument and convincing, again, in a respectful manner, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um that seems to be the part that's missing is that respectful argument. You know, instead we're demonizing um uh uh you know opposition. I mean, it used to be, right, that the the uh Democrats, Republicans saw each other as the opposition, right? And now we're the enemies, you know. Now it's it's you know, the I I detest that point of view, you know, the everything from the you know, maggots on the one side to the libertards on the other. You know, it's just that it's this whole process of you know increasingly dehumanizing the other. And I wonder, you know, how how can we get back to that sense of just civil discourse?
SPEAKER_02:Um is the Socratic, what I call the it's I think it's the Socratic method, basically. You teach by asking questions, right? You ask questions and you try to lead people in your direction and understand that you're not going to convince people, but to say, hey, how do you here's a disconnect that I see, right? But but if you're framing it as I'm right, you're wrong, here's why you're wrong. I find that questions are better than statements. So if you if you have an issue with how with someone's uh what someone feels, ask it as a question. For example, you know, uh one of the major um uh tendencies of the MAGA movement has been to root out sex offenders from the government, and yet it seems to me that uh there's a protection of the sex offenders with Epstein case. Do you see that as a disconnect, or can you explain why you feel like it's not yeah, which could be an very off-putting, right? But because it's clearly that's a respectful question. It's like maybe you're leave open to the idea that you might not understand that perspective. You see what I'm saying? Right, right, no, totally hypothesis. There's someone on the left is you you say defund the police, um, but to me it feels like that if you had a challenge and if there were someone who was threatening you, would you want someone to help you who was armed and empowered to do that? Or do you feel like and do you feel like if there wasn't anyone, people might take out vigilante action? And could that actually make us all less safe and actually cause more oppression of social justice that you advocate?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, that would be a question to the left, right? So I have many questions like so how and how would you how would you suggest that that this be done? And sometimes the mere lack of having an answer is convincing, right? Because if they're like, I don't know, I'm not a hundred percent convinced, but let me think about it. Right, you know, so give someone something to think about instead of being like, wow, that guy was obnoxious, and I'm even more firm in my beliefs. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I I keep thinking of that. I think you're you are um, I totally agree with the whole questioning process. That's why I like the podcast format, right? I get to ask a lot of questions, I get to, you know, find out more about things I don't know anything about. Um, that that's just a good situation. I would hope more people would do that. Um, I think where where it gets fuzzy for me is the you know, what responsibility maybe do we have or should we take for making sure that our questions, our you know, perspectives are as truthful as they can be, as well as as responsible as they can be, you know, that uh because respect is certainly a part of asking the question and being you know curious, genuinely curious about what makes someone believe the things that they believe that are you know antithetical to what I believe. I want to understand that because that's the only way to really come to any kind of uh you know coalition, if you want to think of it that way. Um but I wonder, you know, would do we do we have a responsibility? Should we be you know careful about just saying things for the the value of the incendiary quality that those things have, for the the passion that they will drive? Or you know, should we be you know trying to phrase questions and trying to present things to people that will help to elevate and help them to realize this is a big problem. We need to talk about this, we need to be able to respectfully dialogue.
SPEAKER_02:We should, but one challenge, and I'll admit, we've like we do campaigns where we say we don't do incendiary things, but we say things that are that that are headline grabbing, and part of the reason is that term headline grabbing. So if you make a nuance statement, you may not get the same attention as if you make a strong statement. So maybe what needs to be done is we need to figure out a way to reward nuance and penalize and penalize in quotation marks these sort of extreme statements. Because right now, if you're a commentator and you have some very radical belief, they're like, we want you to come on the news. If you're not saying something radical, then it's like, well, why do we want you to what do we need you for? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:So you know, um yeah, we're sensationalized.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I think that's how I would describe it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. We're gonna I can't believe it's been 50 minutes already, but yeah, obviously we could keep talking for a long, long time. Um, but I got I want to wrap up. Is there something, Adam, that you with your work, with the kinds of things that you're doing, is there something that you would hope that when all is said and done, that people would be able to look at your work, look at the things that you you're attempting to do and the services that you're providing that you hope that they would remember? You know, uh it's the classic they come by your gravesite and they, well, there's Adam Swart. Yeah, I remember it. Boy, he was trying, boy, the guy really tried to do hmm, whatever the is.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I I have a lot more living that I want to do because I feel that we've been very impactful in the campaigns, but I have not yet figured out what's going to be on my tombstone uh at this point. So uh, because the challenge is I don't think I've made the kind of impact that yet that I've want to make. Okay. Um you know, uh, I can tell you, I'll tell you one impact one of my favorite impactful campaigns we've done, and I'll tell you a couple that I want to do. Um, one the one of the most effective campaigns we've done was what's called the delete Facebook movement. I've kind of ranted about social media companies and it's sincere, but we've also been uh there was a movement, you know, starting about 17, 2017, 2018, 2019, basically when it's come to attention that Facebook's been using this algorithms to divide people, to, you know, cause which has then caused genocide, political division, outrage, all kinds of things, right? There's this move to uh delete Facebook, hashtag delete Facebook, culminating, you know, the stealing of the user data with the Cambridge Analytica, right? So uh it basically delete Facebook. This is a really bad, bad company. And we we did this in it all over the country, but particularly lately in DC and the Bay and uh Silicon Valley and other places. And uh it actually of course people didn't delete Facebook, but it actually had the uh uh impact, which we didn't think they would, but because that wasn't the goal. The goal was to be basically critically examine what Facebook is and the evil that it espouses, right? And basically that accomplished two things. Number one, um semantically, they changed their name very shortly thereafter. They don't call themselves Facebook, they call themselves Meta, right? Because the Facebook name is synonymous with division and hate. That's why they did it, in my opinion. Um, number two, they ended political advertising. They've tried to depoliticize Instagram and Facebook. Not obviously that's that's a long road, and I I'm not giving them any praise whatsoever. They don't deserve it, but they are taking that step toward that objective, right? Of basically like we are we we want to depoliticize our platform.
SPEAKER_00:And they don't have to, their users do enough of that for themselves, right?
SPEAKER_02:So right, but we're not going to make it easy for kind of either foreign countries or other people to really like exploit the Facebook network for that purpose. So it was extremely impactful. And now, of course, you have other networks that have more political content as a result, but and there's still so much work to do. But that was a pretty big impact that like we had. So I'm proud of that. Um, I know time is short, so I'll just tell you one that I want to do though that I have not yet done. Um, is we gotta stop with the poisoning and death for in the food industry. And RFK is a paper tiger. Um, he's not done anything and he won't do anything. Uh, he's neutered. Um, you need like someone who's actually sincere about it, and who's willing to take on McDonald's and Coca-Cola and call them out for the uh, I hate to say it, but the murder of millions of Americans uh through the purposeful uh marketing of uh terror products that are basically like going to kill you, right? The trans fats, the saturated fats, all that stuff, the the sugar that's in Coca-Cola. I mean, they want you to drink it like it's water, but if you do, you'll have diabetes by the time you're my age, um, and uh probably obesity, hard conditions, right? I mean, these companies do that, and then they hide behind DEI and they're like, oh, we're marketing poison to black people, and then we but but don't don't complain because we have two black women on the board. You know what I mean? Like when when the biggest impact of McDonald's and Coca-Cola has fallen on the black community and uh Latino community, of course, every American has been affected negatively by them, um, other than probably their shareholders. So I would like to for them to once and for all, like we talk about reparations. I want them to pay reparations to the victims of their food over the past however many years. And I want them to commit to I want them to essentially be like a like completely change their models of what they do because what they do is basically sell and distribute poisonous substances. Um, and that needs to be uh advocated and they need to be called out for the racists that they are, um, and kind of evildoers that they are, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00:Are you familiar with the uh musical Man of La Mantra? And of course, oh yes, of course to be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause. So this is uh very much awkward.
SPEAKER_02:I think most Americans agree. Even people I know who are addicted, I mean, this is a drug, right? So so what you have to understand is I know many people who eat these things and drink these things, and they don't do it because they love it, they do it because they're addicted to it, right? If you're a crack addict, right, you would want to end your addiction, but we don't understand these as the same things, they are addicted to it because they put the chemicals in their stuff that is addictive, right? I mean, I don't want to sound like a crazy person here. I mean, they but they but the fact that I sound like a crazy person saying, oh, they put the chemicals in some whack job, it's like no, they do. I mean, they these are lab tested. I mean, these companies are brilliant. I mean, they test this stuff in labs to make you want to buy more.
SPEAKER_00:Well, follow the money, right? Follow the money for goodness sakes.
SPEAKER_02:You're gonna do I hope it's not a man of La Mancha quest because I I truly think that that everyone wants to wants to like understands it. Even the people who consume their products understand that what they're doing is evil.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Well, and under yeah, it it's yeah, we have so much of that in our society, our nation right now. We we could do a whole show on just talking about those kinds of exploits and how to examine them. But Adam, it's been a just I can't believe how quickly the time flew. So thank you. Thank you, thank you for your time. Maybe we can get together again at some point. Uh when things settle down.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe you will, maybe a cinnamon button.
SPEAKER_00:I'll send you some by FedEx from and we can both be eating them as we're talking.
SPEAKER_02:Would that sound amazing?
SPEAKER_00:That sounds amazing. Okay, that would be fantastic too. Folks, my guest today has been Adam Swart. He is the CEO founder of a uh a wonderful, I'm gonna call it crowdsourcing uh company. So your crowds on demand is the name of the company. Adam, if they want to know more about you, what's the best place to go to find out more about crowds on demand and about you?
SPEAKER_02:www.crowdsondemand.com, crowdsonmand.com or at CEO Adam Swart. We recently deactivated the phone, so you have to email us. We that we just got too many crazy crank calls uh coming in. So we actually recently deactivated the mainland. So you would have to email us, but but please do if you have questions or or you know feel like we could work together. But uh mostly um if you have questions or comments and you know, happy to come on the show again and and answer them. So it's it's my pleasure to spend this past hour with you.
SPEAKER_00:That that would be wonderful. If nothing else, to so people can see that you don't have horns. Uh, you know, you're you're a decent guy trying to do decent things in an increasingly indecent world, unfortunately. But uh thanks again, Adam. I really appreciate you've been listening in frame of reference profiles and leadership, and hope you've enjoyed uh Adam's take on leadership because it it you are in a leadership role and uh as far as I can see, doing some admirable things for uh leading people out of some of the present darkness, you know, which would be great. Thanks, Adam. Thanks.
