Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Canadian Snipers, Hard Choices, Honest War Stories
A rifle on a rooftop isn’t a movie moment—it’s a profound responsibility. We sit with retired Canadian Army sniper Barry Nisbet and author and former U.S. Army Ranger Mir Bahmanyar to unpack what snipers really do when deployed to places like Bosnia and Afghanistan and why their new book, Send It, pushes past the myths of their missions and duties. Barry brings the ground truth from five operational tours and a rare first for a Canadian corporal at U.S. Army Ranger School. Mir adds the historian’s eye and a Ranger’s respect for standards, sharing why he pulled real practitioners into the manuscript to keep the record straight.
We walk through the job as it is lived: building a sniper from disciplined infantry roots, the strict rules of engagement that govern every trigger press, and the invisible victories of overwatch that keep patrols alive. Barry breaks down night insertions, fragile hides, the exposure that comes with calling in artillery or air, and the nerve it takes to exfiltrate when the sun rises and the enemy knows you’re there. The conversation lingers where most war stories don’t—accepting risk without bravado, carrying loss without turning it into spectacle, and holding fast to the internal standards that separate professionals from pose.
Mir challenges the hype that flattens soldiers into slogans and war into entertainment. He argues for honest military history that preserves detail, context and consequence, and he credits Canadian sniper teams with a level of professionalism and restraint too often missing in popular narratives. Along the way we touch on leadership that actually protects people, the mental skills forged in stalking lanes and fieldcraft, and the quiet rituals—dogs, long walks, small places far from crowds—that help recalibrate after hard tours.
If you care about modern military history, leadership under pressure, or how precision and patience save lives, this one will stick with you. Listen, then pick up Send It for the full story told by the people who were there. If the conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who values honest storytelling, and leave a review so more listeners can find it.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Well, welcome everybody to another edition of Frame of Reference Profiles and Leadership. And today I get to do one of those rare things when I actually get to talk to two leaders from two perspectives that share some common experiences, not the least of which is that they co-authored a book together, but we'll talk about that in a bit. So, and they are uh we've been talking a little bit beforehand, and it's always a good sign when I can laugh with my guests before we get going. It sort of sets the tenor for things very well. But uh I'll introduce them quickly and and then uh I'm gonna let them say, and by the way, I'm also this. So, because I I have a tendency to do the elevator pitch, and then I want them to let you know who they really are. Okay. So my guests today are Barry Nisbet. So Nisbet, yes, Nisbet. So a retired, we talked about this too, didn't we, Barry? So boring colonial name, I think was how it was called or something. But uh commoner, that's a commoner. Uh Barry Nisbet is a retired Canadian Army infantry sergeant who served over 14, 15 years with the 1st Battalion in the Royal Canadian Regiment, the RCR, based in Petawawa. Did I get that right? Petawawa? Petawawa. Petawawa. Okay, Petawa. So it sounds like Barbara Walters asking for Wawa. So Petawa, Ontario, enlisting in 1997, retiring in 2012. He completed five, five, as if one wasn't enough, five operational tours. Kosovo in 1999, Bosnia in 2003, and Afghanistan was uh threesome at 2005, 2006, and 2010. Because once is not enough, twice is not enough, you got to go three times, I guess, to Afghanistan. And in 2003, Barry became the first, the first Canadian soldier at the rank of corporal to graduate from the U.S. Army Ranger School, paving the way for more to follow. Over the years, he earned numerous qualifications, including basic parachutist, mortar man, machine gunner, reconnaissance patrolman, and basic through advanced sniper. He went on to teach many basic sniper courses, training schools, or training soldiers, sorry, from both the regular infantry and C S O R. The Canadian, is that Canadian Special Operations Regiment. Okay, thank you. Um, so recently he co-authored Send It, Canadian Canada Snipers at War in Afghanistan, which is a modern military memoirs. Um, and I just was able to read a little bit of it. And those of you that would like to know more, it's it's a fascinating book. It is really readily or in reality written by soldiers that were there in that war and their their reflections. So you want to talk getting a real flavor of how it is to be at war and be a sniper in a war. And along with him is one of the co-authors. So Mir M. Bamayar, Baumanyar, Ba-manyar. Spot on. Banyanyar. Ban say that 10 times faster all. Ba-manyar. So yes, Bomir brings a unique perspective to the military history, having lived in four countries across three continents. I was gonna say, you don't sound like you're from Wisconsin, Amir. I'm just saying. So uh or Canada. Or Canada. Yeah. I just I just heard a very funny joke about Canada Canadians. It said, how do you get 20 Canadians to go into freezing cold lake in the middle of winter? Ask them nicely. Ask them nicely. So I thought, you know, that's so true of Canadians. So but Mir holds a BA, a bachelor's degree in history from the UC Berkeley. What a slouch school. Geez. Then enlisted. They were better ones. Well, for history, I suppose. So uh yeah, and uh he was he then enlisted in the 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, and earned an MA in war studies from King's College London. Now, at least you were moving upwards in your trajectory for schools. So I'm probably gonna get some standing in people from Berkeley saying, What are you talking about? So, anyways, I'll bring it on, bring it on. Uh here uh his jobs have included, and this is what I find is really fascinating, Mirror. His jobs have included library clerk, janitor, bookstore owner, security services, military technical advisor, German language coach, producer, and writer in Hollywood. So, and and as if that's not enough, he also writes thrillers.
SPEAKER_01:So I was not successful in Hollywood.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's maybe not a bad thing, too, Mir. Maybe not a bad thing.
SPEAKER_01:You make it sound like it's fantastic, but anyway.
SPEAKER_03:I just think it's a wonderful trajectory for a career. You know, I think of mine, I was a silk merchant for a while, a college professor for a while. Right. You know, it just the people, our road goes multiple ways during life, right? So, gentlemen, thank you. Did I get anything wrong besides your name, Mir? I, you know, struggled, but in News, but uh last names were a problem today, I guess. Sounded good to me. Okay, anything else you want to add to that? Uh I mean, there's a ton of stuff that I didn't read on these, but uh that I tried to hit the high points at least.
SPEAKER_01:But well, I can tell you, Barry is the real soldier. Okay, and then there's me who spent like two years active duty, and then I got a medical discharge. So I come from the peacetime school of militarism. So the job as a library clerk was my very first job uh after we had immigrated to California, by the way, when I was 16, I think, at that time. So that was my first job. And the best job was janitor at our local uh community college. Okay. So this is the greatest job ever. You know, years anyways.
SPEAKER_03:Years ago, I uh I directed plays at one of the local high schools, actually, two of our local high schools. And um I always found that the janitors were the people I most enjoyed talking with. Um they knew the kids, they saw, you know, things in ways that were very, you know, there was no political or emotional, just they they knew the kids, they got along with the kids, they you know, saw the trajectory of what was happening to students in general. Um and the office staff were often, you know, always people I always enjoyed talking with. And I didn't know until years later, people told me, you know, that was one of the smartest things you do when you come into a school like that as an after hours coach, make friends with the office staff and the janitors because that will save you so much grief in so many ways. So, and I thought, oh, you know, I wasn't even doing it beyond the fact that I just enjoyed their company. But well, as long as I got everything right so far, or at least close enough to reality that we won't complain. Um, let's let's get into it. And uh, I always like to start with the uh my favorite thing segment. If one of these days, my my hope and dream is that I will have enough money that I could maybe even hire Julie Andrews to do a version of it that we could use just for our show. Uh good luck with that, Rawl. So but uh this is our rapid fire kind of Roar Shocktian, you know, approach to things, just to have people get a chance to know you. The last time I had uh two guests on like this, it was a husband and wife. So I don't know that I got the real thing there because you know there's always a little bit, ooh, I don't want to say that one. Um, but you just blurt out the first thing that comes, and if we need to edit it out, uh we won't. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01:Barry is the younger brother. So we're not the husband and wife.
SPEAKER_03:We're like Barry, how long have you been putting up with Mary? A decade at least. A decade at least probably seems like a thousand years, too, doesn't it? Probably at least. All right, gentlemen, and now let both of you can answer the question. What's let's start easy. Favorite color for each of you? Barry? I'm gonna say blue. Okay. Oh okay, then I'll pick purple. Purple. Okay. Just had a guest that put pick purple. And I I'm kind of a blue guy myself. So yeah, I like blue also, but I like a bluish purple.
SPEAKER_01:So since since he stole my answer, I'm gonna give you the purple.
SPEAKER_00:You you go you can go first in the next one.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it was interesting because the guest that I had actually uh um is a head of an organization called U.S. United, and it's uh a group that he basically formed it to be able to get everyone to work together towards a united States of America. So and it was fascinating because he he said the color was purple, and I said, that's interesting. He said, Yeah, it's the combination of blue and red. Yep, yeah, okay, and there we go. Makes sense. How about your favorite food, Barry?
SPEAKER_00:Well, Mir gets to go first.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I thought you were first this time. Oh, no, you don't know it's yeah, that's a good one. I will have to say, I'm gonna go with Italian food because I had a lot of it when I was in Sicily researching one of my books, and it was really fantastic. Any particular dish in the Italian segment? No, nothing really, just a very simple pasta dishes, you know, nothing fancy, just solid traditional quality food. Okay, good complex.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, good complex carbohydrates too. So and so, but and and lots of that food is prepared with so much love that you know I think that kind of permeates the pasta sometimes. So, how how about you, Barry?
SPEAKER_00:Uh uh Amir won't like this, but I'm gonna say I love lamb. Anything lamb, Middle Eastern spices, lamb, that's always one of my favorite dishes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. I don't think I was interested or introduced to lamb until college years. I had a friend who was 100% Greek. Uh his dad was a Greek Orthodox lay priest. Um, you know, he he George Sugros, and uh we're still friends to this day. And uh he introduced me to gyros, real gyros. Um, and I uh the first time I had lamb, it was love at first bite, uh, because it was just wonderful. And the the the he his mom used to make uh you know the homemade lamb with you know the all the special secrets that she could tell you, but then she'd have to kill you kind of thing. So it's uh I I can identify with both of you guys. Good choice, it's good choice. How about a favorite baked good?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well, I'm I'm gonna be like the the snob and tell you croissants. Who are like those best okay with a coffee?
SPEAKER_03:But as a Frenchman and French Canadian, I cannot argue with that.
SPEAKER_01:So we and I didn't say it because of that.
SPEAKER_03:Of course you didn't, of course, no one ever says it because a Frenchman is here, so no one knew they say it because it's true. So yes, it is true.
SPEAKER_00:Barry, what's up? Yeah, my mom makes this this chocolate caramel square, and she always makes them at Christmas. So and she's been making them forever. So that's that's my favorite.
SPEAKER_03:He's a mommy's boy. Yeah, well, you know, I understand. That's uh I was too. I was the youngest in my family. Did your mom do the thing? My mom always did this thing where she would make all kinds of candy. I mean, her mom was a German, you know, German and French and Irish mix of things, and she was just an excellent candy maker. So she taught my mom all of the things. So mom would make divinity and caramels and pinocci and fudge, and you know, we'd have all this stuff for for Christmas time. And then I would want to eat some of it, and she would be like, Don't touch that, that's our company, you know, and company would never come, at least not enough to eat like the barrels of stuff she made. So then they would get all sale, and she'd I'm not making that anymore, nor ever eats it. I'm like, Wall, I cannot win with you, woman. I cannot win. So, how about a favorite quote?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, the the quote that I have in the Houdini Club, that super long one by Jack Beldon about how terrible uh money grubbers are during war. Okay, and how how much he hates them and how much he loves the soldiers. So it's a long quote. Yeah, that's the one that's gonna read it to you, but it's right at the preface, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Because I I think I know the one you're talking about. And it it's so true today still.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, yeah. He he was great. I I love Jack Feldman. He accompanied Rangers of World War II along some of their combat missions in the Mediterranean. And you know, I read his book and it's fabulous. He died a pauper in Paris. Uh so I don't know, somehow his writing has stuck with me, and that's why I put it in the book, anyway. That's my long-winded quote.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh, that's uh yeah. If you get if you get the book, folks, do read that. It's it's one of those things people jump to the the meat of a book oftentimes, but you don't want to miss that quote because he's it's just it's uh just rich with pathos, and you know, he's not he's saying it from the depths of his heart, and I yeah, I really appreciated that. Uh so not to mention it's hard to argue with what he's saying. Uh, I mean Eisenhower said it, you know, the the thing we have to fear the most is the military industrial complex because it Or Barry, or Barry with a rifle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well not anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, a long time ago. Man, I I saw those, I think I told you I saw the picture of you as a young man with your your rifle and thought, man, is he ever a badass? So, but uh you just have that look too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, in his own mind, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, now I'm seeing your smile, and I'm like, okay, that was all obviously a facade. So definitely. So how about you, Barry? What's your favorite quote?
SPEAKER_00:So I don't even know who said it. And it's it's funny. I I actually had this written inside one of my combat boots decades ago. And it's and I hope I don't mess it up. So it's it's fame is a vapor, popularity an accident, riches riches have wings, and all that endures is character. And for some reason, that just stuck with me. And and just it's yeah, uh that would be my favorite quote. Don't even know who said it, never even bothered to try to look it up.
SPEAKER_03:Wait, isn't that something those things that and it's very inspirational, right? And it helps to keep your priorities set to know how many more people would be doing well if they would have a maxim like that that they live by. So how about a favorite recording artist?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I could be politically incorrect at this moment and tell you the Irish rap band or hip-hop band Kneecap. Kneecap?
SPEAKER_03:I I'll confess I don't even know that band. Where did you become aware of them?
SPEAKER_01:So well it's gonna rub some people the wrong way, probably, but they're uh uh they are Irish from Belfast. Okay, so they don't like the British. Okay, they don't like the English, they don't like the British, and uh they support Palestinians and all human rights kind of a thing, and so they've taken quite a shellacking lately because of that. But uh but uh you know I've been into Belfast recently because Northern Ireland, again, I'm sorry, going back to World War II. Northern Ireland was the home, the birthplace really of the first American Rangers in World War II. Okay, so I've been to Northern Ireland a lot, they're local groups, so it just kind of worked together.
SPEAKER_03:So that's that's it. Like that much Irish, I think a quarter Irish in me, and uh or eighth Irish. My mom was she claimed nothing but her Irish uh ness and would say constelling you know, there are only two types of people in the world, those that are Irish and those that wish they were. And then I got to play an Irishman in one of the plays I was in years ago and said, Mom, mom, there are th there's a third kind of Irishman. I said, What's that? And I said, Those that are glad they ain't. So, and uh she avoided I get a beating for that one. So I love the Irish. I the Irish are just uh there's a wonderful play if you ever get a chance to see. Um, and I don't know, PBS did a recording of it called The Bloody Irish, and it's all about the uprising in 1918, and you really get a flavor, I think, of the the core of Irish people and those horrible English British Well, the Canadians have some of that too, don't they? Ah, the British, what do they know? So get out of here.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, so Ireland is a is a great place. I include Northern Ireland in that also. And like I said, birthplace of Rangers. Barry was went to Ranger school, so he's allowed by you know remote, remotely he's allowed to take some pride in the fact that the American Rangers were founded in near Belfast in Northern Ireland in 1942.
SPEAKER_03:Boy, I I was so happy my mom got to go to Ir Ireland before she passed away. So to County Cork, which is where her family is from. So but how about you, Mr. Nisbet?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I I don't have a favorite. I like I I'll say I'm I like mostly rock type music, a favorite. Couldn't pick one.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Love music, listen to lots, lots of different influences.
SPEAKER_03:A particular kind of rock? Because there's so many, you know, garage band to grunge to you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_00:From when I was younger, you know, anything from you know, Metallica to Guns N' Roses, anything other the concerts I've seen, yep, definitely they were in there too. So yeah, Metallica, Guns N' Roses. I still love the 90s sort of grunge, yeah, Alice and Chains, Nirvana, you know, a lot of those those bands that now they're all apparently classic rock. So I don't know when that happened.
SPEAKER_03:Well, my generation, you know, the 60s and 70s, I don't know what that we're probably old and moldy rock or something by now. We used to be classic rock, but I think that you guys stole it now from us.
SPEAKER_01:Barry made a mistake though. Barry should have said that what he loves the most to listen to is Scottish bagpipes, but you know, I don't think anybody loves that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:What is that? Is that a cat dying or is that a bagpipe? Yeah, I'm not sure. It's got its time and place.
SPEAKER_01:The military tattoos at Edinburgh. Oh, there is still like fascinating. There you go. But anyway.
SPEAKER_03:Actually, I play I talked about the bloody irish. I think there's some uh bagpipes in that too. That's the beautiful thing about there's some really poignant songs in the midst of it. How about a favorite place to go to de-stress?
SPEAKER_01:Well, Mary, are you going first this time?
SPEAKER_00:Uh for me, it's anything outdoors with no people.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So if it's walking my dog or just out on a hike, uh I I camp a lot, canoe a lot. So that is 100%, you know, no cell phone signal, just out with people.
SPEAKER_03:No, no gun. No gun, no people, no people. That's so you can be quiet. You don't have to I I get to walk two dogs every night, and it's it's uh the best time of the day. So, and I I need to actually make those walks longer because it is it's just wonderful to be out there. I'm one of the few people too that drives my car, and I usually don't have the radio on, and it drives my my daughter nuts. She's dad, you gotta put some music on. I'm like, why? I just want time to, you know, think, you know, it's just and watch the scenery go by and all that good stuff. So how about you, Mir?
SPEAKER_01:Well, first and foremost, I'd like to know what kind of dogs you have. I know Barry's dog, so I've met that, I've met his dog.
SPEAKER_03:But uh what kind of dogs do you have? Oh, my I have uh we've always had rescue animals, um, so that they are mutts. Uh, my my dog Daisy is uh she's the mother of the other dog. So right before COVID hit, um, we had lost in 2019, we lost three dogs. We had uh a full beagle and two uh beagle terrier mixes. One died in March, the other two died in December, one right before Christmas, one after Christmas. And it was just, we were devastated. I mean, it was I'm like, ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas. Damn it. So um, but my daughter and I lasted about three weeks. Uh, my wife didn't want to get another dog, and both of us were so like, we're getting dogs, get get on the bandwagon or else, because this is you can't live like this. So we got we went to the same pet rescue we've gotten the dogs from. And these two are uh Daisy is a mix of Australian or American uh shepherd. We're not 100% sure, but she's got the variegated coat um and has the uh Crimea eyes, one blue, one brown. Um, and it's just uh smart as a whip. And she's a daddy's girl, you know. So of course the two of us are just uh I come home, and that's the thing about dogs, right? You come home, you're the most exciting thing in their whole day. And so people that are mean to their dogs, I just I'm gonna send them to you, Barry. You get a sniper's bullet and just have it for them, okay? It just makes no sense to me that someone can be me. That's just a sign of a real evil person in my mind. Um, and then the other Dart, Dartignon, uh the three Beagles we had were um they they were uh Porthos, Athos, and um and uh Eramis. So we had to have D'Artignon as a result of those three. And uh D'Artignan, I call him Dart the fart, because he's just a you know, he'd be if since he was three weeks old, he's been with people. So of course he thinks he's a people. And you know, it's just so uh they're he's just so lovable and so annoying at the same time. Yeah, um, and again, smart as his mom, you know, maybe a little edge even. Um, because it just uh the things that he does and whatnot, I I love walking with him because he'll just he's very much like, where do you want to go, Dad? And if he's got a way and he doesn't really want to say it, and I pick his way, he's all like, good job, dad, good job, and excited and walks on. Um, but uh yeah, no, I wonderful.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have dogs at home here? I used to have dogs, and you know, every time you put one down or you lose one, you lose part of your soul. So uh, but now but now I live in Toronto in a small place downtown. And I think if I had a dog, I'd need to be more like Barry to be able to go outdoors and you know have some canoe time and river time. So no, but I I do think daily about getting a dog. I prefer the pit bull type or the uh the big Japanese American Ikidas. Okay, you know, I like large dogs, but uh no, no, currently not.
SPEAKER_03:You need a mass teeth, that would be uh that'd be awesome too. I I don't discriminate big dogs. You'd have more room, Mir if you got rid of a few books. I'm just saying. He would. He definitely would.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not even gonna I'm not gonna tilt the camera. It'll be like insane.
SPEAKER_03:But well, we're not recording that uh that part of it, so folks you're gonna have to take my word for him. He has a whole lot of books, and I'm noticing Send It and Houdini Club are a lot, uh there's a lot of copies of that back there, so that's good deal. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Uh well I'm very proud of Sendit, of course. But uh my favorite uh my favorite place actually to be relaxed is something that requires travel, which would today be Sicily. I as I told you, I went and did some research on World War II Rangers and went to Sicily and is the greatest place I've ever been to. And I'm I'm sure there are many other places that are wonderful. But if you asked me where would you like to go to again, I would go to Sicily and rent a car, drive around and stop at a small place where there are two old uh Sicilian women feeding homeless cats, and they make you an espresso drink for 50 euro cents, you know. It's like and they're wonderful, and between pigeon English and pigeon Italian, you can have a conversation. Yeah. So anyway, I I love Sicily very much. It's a great place.
SPEAKER_03:So do both of you have a favorite historical personality, someone that you look back in the history and think about it.
SPEAKER_01:All right, Barry, go home. Go just get off the thing. I'm gonna talk for the next two hours.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I know. Just call call me when you want me to chime in on a question.
SPEAKER_03:I'll send you a chat message, okay, Barry? Yeah, mirror's finally done in 2014 tomorrow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'll let Barry go first.
SPEAKER_00:I I'm gonna say Ernest Shackleton. Oh, really? Because of because of what did I steal yours or no, no.
SPEAKER_03:No, uh Shackleton's fascinating, man.
SPEAKER_00:That's I'm and I just I I was always fascinated with him, and then just with that expedition, they and he didn't lose a man, you know, and he did everything he could do to save his men, yeah, and and come back for his men. And you know, I'm sure there's bad things about him too, but um, you know, just based off of that, um interesting, uh interesting person.
SPEAKER_03:He's sort of the epitome of duty and honor in my mind. I'm not I'm not sure if that's uh, you know, but as you say, you know, don't know that background, but uh to your point, right? He he understood and felt it was his duty uh to to return, and he was an honorable enough man to say, you know, this is going to take sacrifice on my part, but that's not the important part of the equation. So um interesting. Yeah, well, isn't there a shackleton in Antarctica? There's a Shackleton harbor or shackleton base. I'm thinking that um that I remember seeing on the J on the maps, but I know there are movies, yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't uh uh Kenneth Brano play him? Yep.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, he wasn't that and that tells you a lot about Barry right there. Yeah, he likes to go out in the woods with his dog, a canoe, no people, and then he wants to be in a bigger version of a canoe with a very few people go out into some kind of wilderness that nobody should go to. I don't know, tells you everything you need to know.
SPEAKER_03:My my dark sardonic humor is saying, and watch them die horribly. So I wasn't gonna say it. No comment. Sorry, Barry. I'm sorry. We're having too way too much fun at your expense. So that's all right.
SPEAKER_00:I'm used to it, I'm used to it with Mir.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah, you have to get that armor up, right? So he can handle it. There you go. He can handle the truth. Okay, Mir, here go, here goes chapter 19 here. Okay, right.
SPEAKER_01:So look, I'm gonna keep it really small, but there's a long list of this. You know, I love ancient history, and I I read way too much from ancient through modern. As you can tell, we we co-wrote a book on modern stuff. So if we're talking about historical personalities, you know, I'm always fascinated by these uh people like Hannibal, the great Carthaginian, you know, taking Rome to the very uh brink of destruction for the Roman uh Republic. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in the kind of people who create like the Holocaust and you know, World War II, like Adolf Hitler. You're like, what, you know, what is going on? You know, you want you want to know this kind of stuff. So I also think you know, someone like uh Eisenhower would be interesting because he's a military guy, you know, and uh becomes president, and then his whole uh military-industrial political or congressional complex, because I think congressional got cut because there was an election coming up and they didn't want to throw shade on Congress. So, you know, it's always these larger than life people. I'm also interested, of course, like any any military historian. I you know, I'm interested in Napoleon, I'm interested in Richard Nixon, for example. What a divisive character, right?
SPEAKER_00:So and there you just said one, you just said one person.
SPEAKER_03:All right, if I had to pick one, I'm gonna pick. He sits there quietly and then just puts it in.
SPEAKER_01:I can play, I can play his game. Sends the bullet down range. So, okay, if I had to pick one, it's tough. For historical perspective, I would want to pick Adolf Hitler because he's a guy everybody knows, and you know, you want to know what this monster is like. If it were just historical, for my benefit, I would want to it's it would be Hannibal the Carthaginian. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:That would be the way you get both those names in your diatribe. That's where we're you know, that's good. So there's uh Yeah, you know, I have more in theater. Uh, one of the things we we learned in uh in acting classes was that no one, no one sees themselves as an antagonist. So that lesson has always kind of you know percolated in my brain that no matter how awful a character is that you're playing, you have to find a way to play them that says they're a hero in their own mind somehow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, you know, that they have a they have a calling that goes beyond, you know, what normal people understand. Um, and oftentimes, you know, I've found too that the people that are most admired um have a very dark side to them that um if most people knew about it, they would be like, oh, oh, oh, oh. Um, you know, I think of people like Trump and Adolf Hitler and Nixon, they're pretty upfront about their horribleness, you know. So uh it's not uh it's not something that they're hiding from, you know, whereas I think a lot of people do hide from their horribleness because they're you know, yeah, it's it's part of what drives them, but it's not necessarily something they want to have out in the open.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, last question. Sorry. Wait, wait. We don't have to worry about Barry because he's like a Boy Scout. So we're good to go on that one. But anyway, sorry to interrupt.
SPEAKER_03:Somehow I don't trust that. I don't I'm not getting Boy Scout vibe from Barry. I'm sorry. I know we're not there personally, but just make getting boy scouting vibe. Okay. How about we'll wrap up? This is the the one question I like to wrap up with is your favorite memory from childhood. Do you have and that's hard sometimes too, right? But do you have a favorite memory? And I think of those things that we get reminded of periodically and it just brings us back. It's such a strong and you know part of who we are that you just you come back to and go, it's makes you smile or it makes you go, yeah, that was really it was hard at the time, but that was really important. I'm glad that happened to me. So what would you say? Barry?
SPEAKER_00:Well, for me, it's when I was very young, 10, 10, 11, 12, um, my my father and another guy had a f had a a flying school, and I would fly with my dad, um, and just in in little Cessnas. And um, that's just a memory that um that's just always been a good memory. I just flying, you know, around the area, or he would sometimes fly me to see friends in other provinces. Um, so yeah, that was always uh that's always a really good childhood memory for me.
SPEAKER_03:What a neat thing, too, to share about your dad to have up in the sky, you know, and to be traveling to what I mean. I I've only been in small planes I've got a couple of times, and it it is a it's like being on a motorcycle, kind of, you know, you're just you're so much involved, you know, that yeah, than the jet or whatever. So all right, Mayor, here you go.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the the the part that Barry neglected to say was then he would jump out of the airplane with a parachute and it's long gun.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, I did I talked about that.
SPEAKER_01:Didn't I say something about parachutist? You know, yeah. Um, you know, it's an odd one for me. My father had died when I was relatively young. And uh at that time I was living in the Bay Area in uh Palo Alto, actually, near Stanford University. And uh I'd go play soccer every day. I just remember one day, particularly thinking about my father, and because I loved him very much, and I was lying on the grass. We're you know, probably gonna play soccer in 30 minutes or something, and they had mowed the lawn and it smelled beautifully, and I had wonderful memories of my father. And I looked up in the sky and it was sunny, a few clouds, it was just a beautiful day, and that stuck with me forever. So there we both have daddy issues.
SPEAKER_03:Was uh simple, but it you know, isn't that interesting too? The things that we're oftentimes have fondest memories of were just simple moments, you know. It wasn't wasn't anything, you know, yeah, we were at blah, blah, blah. It's just it was us time, and that that bonding is always a part of it, too. Um I have a lot of favorite memories of my dad too. So, gentlemen, how how did you come to write this book together? I mean, that we okay. Barry has nothing to say to that.
SPEAKER_00:So this is me, or I'm gonna take a nap.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Get a drink, Barry. Um, okay, so you know, um, I worked in Hollywood a little bit, and in between I would write books because I worked on Blackhawk Down as a researcher for Ranger stuff because I was a Ranger, did a lot of Ranger research, and then they didn't take me to Morocco for the actual production, so I was kind of annoyed. Uh and I reached out and started uh to a publisher and I started to write books. So I'd finished a book on Navy SEALs, I don't know, 2008-9. And one of the one of the SEALs had mentioned this sniper guy, Canadian dude, uh in Afghanistan. That was Gordon Cullen, who is one of our co-authors. So I reached out to Gordon wanting to do some kind of book, maybe international or Canadian snipers. And it just took forever, you know. This was around 2010, I think it was. And you know, I've been busy trying to make it in Hollywood, busy writing other books, things like that, moving a bunch of times. And and uh so Gordon was very enthusiastic. The Canadian military gave us, uh gave me a uh thumbs up, and I went and called it embedded, but it's not quite true. But two weeks with uh sniper program at Garrison Petawawa, and uh and I recognized immediately that there's no way in hell I can write this book. Just no way. I just I lack this skill. I mean, no matter how much quote unquote elite force background I have, sniping is a whole different thing. So I thought to myself, well, I can't write this book. And it's disappointing because I've been talking to all these people, I'm starting to interview people. So I asked, and I met Barry, uh and uh and I sort of sort of just thought, well, maybe they could write some of these chapters. And Barry was very good about it. Gordon was excellent about it. I mean, these two guys were phenomenal. They they wrote the bulk of the book, and it is simply because I didn't feel qualified enough, and I thought the story of Canadian snipers is certainly worthy, and in my opinion, better than I don't want to throw too much shade here, but certainly better than most books that American Americans have authored on American snipers, where it's always look how great I am, look at this mission. I I've killed so many people, rightly or wrongly. But the Canadians that I met, Barry and Gordon for one and many others, were probably some of the most exceptional non-commissioned officers I've ever met in my life. And I knew guys who are in Delta, Rangers, SEALs, you know, Special Forces. So high, high esteem. I hold them in very high esteem, and and they agreed to write this book. Pretty much they did the work. I wrote a couple chapters. So that that's kind of how it started.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And we finally finished it 15 years later.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. So, Barry, what drew you to write it? I I I would think I have way less experience and legitimacy, but it's always struck me that a sniper sees wars in a different way. Um, you know, because the direct impact that you're having, I mean, you're you're usually in a sniper position to prevent a lot of stuff from happening. It's not, you know, necessarily direct combat in the way we think of combat, you know, groups of people rushing at each other. Uh a sniper is much more surgical, um, from from what I understand of it. Um so why why did you want to uh explore that? I mean, I would think in a lot of cases that might be really difficult to explore.
SPEAKER_00:I think uh a big part of it was after you know meeting Mir and understanding what he wanted to do, like what he how he wanted to make the project, how he wanted to make the book, and then how it just kind of evolved into really three of us um telling our stories, is we we and including Mir is we got to control the narrative. And it's like Mir said, this is this this is about so much more than uh you know the Hollywood's thought of the sniper taking this shot. You know, we talk about the training, we talk about um you know the hardships, the physical attributes, the mental attributes, and and and we're not glorifying war, we're not glorifying killing, we're just telling our stories. And and I think you know, the book's been out for for over a month now, and and the reviews we've been getting and the feedback, feedback we've been getting have been have been phenomenal. And you know, further your question, um I really enjoyed the process of writing. Um, it started with one chapter. Mir said, Well, why don't you write one chapter? So I wrote one chapter, and uh Mir's been an amazing mentor, um, and he certainly has made me a better writer. And you know, one turned into two, turned into three, turned into four, and then you know, we we have a book.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Mr. Collins, I forget his first name. He's the other Gordon Gordon. Okay, yeah, Gordon Collins.
SPEAKER_00:He's and then there's one sorry, Ro, there's one other chapter by another uh member of our team, uh Yid Bedard. He also has a chapter uh in the book as well.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Is there a common uh I I I mean that obviously the work is similar, but uh do you think there's a common thread in the fabric of snipers that uh you you know you kind of have to have in order to do that?
SPEAKER_00:To do to do the job?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, to do the job.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, amongst Canadian snipers, absolutely there is.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I think that that common that that for for me, for the guys that I've met, um the it's just we're we're dedicated and uh we're we're we're professional.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And we take the we take the job and we take the responsibility very, very seriously. And within we're within an infantry battalion and uh and you know, we're infantry soldiers first and foremost, and then we've sort of specialized into becoming snipers. Um so we just we just take that role, we take the responsibility that that role has, and and we are just extremely proud to do that job.
SPEAKER_03:It strikes me that there's a a gravitas for lack of a better word, not to be, you know, I ain't having a big word. Um, but there's a gravitas and uh an understanding of the profundity of what you're being asked to do. I mean, in my brain, what makes a sniper's role very different is in you know, chance standard combat, you're you generally fairly far away from the people that you're attacking and fighting against. I mean, it is not that there isn't hand-to-hand comment or whatnot, but a sniper is much more like watching and carefully studying, and then as said kind of a surgical send it, right? And it's done. You know, you you you don't uh and to understand that that you know, that one moment, uh, you know, what half a second, that a lot of lives change when that in that half a second, right? Because it's not just the person that you know you're you're taking out and have to. Um, so that understanding that I think it it does seem to me more Canadian than American, where we're like, I got 60 guys, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I don't mean to belittle it, but it is much more of a uh, you know, what do you call it? The you know, the got the we we tend to do a lot more of being uh kind of out there with our arrogance and our our sense of you know we're the best. And like, you know what? That's not a good way to win friends and influence people.
SPEAKER_01:So uh let me throw something out there real quick, and then I'm gonna throw a question out at Barry. You know, though the one thing I learned uh just meeting some of these guys, especially, of course, the the the snipers, uh, is they have really precise rules of engagement. They don't just willy-nilly shoot anybody that may or may not, whatever. There are rules of engagement before they take a shot or whatever, before they call in airstrikes in general terms. That's one thing. But the other thing that I think a lot of people don't understand is the extreme danger that a small sniper team is exposed to. Let's say they manage to get, and and Barry can talk about this and should actually about getting to position, taking your shot, and then being exposed to potential enemy counterattacks. So I don't know. Barry, you should talk about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and certainly, and we've really I think we've tried to highlight that uh in the book to the readers too, is that there's much more than just that sniper taking that shot. And we would generally operate in in small, uh small teams, two, four, six. Uh, we do a lot of our insertions at night. And you know, for us to get to the location that we've say picked from a map where we're going to say set up a position which could be to fire, which could be to direct artillery or aircraft, which could just be to observe, you know, we have to we have to get there, we have to walk there. So there's that inherent danger. Then we get into position, and a lot of times the you know, the position we're in is is an exposed position. And we are susceptible to and have been, you know, uh had rounds crack over our heads multiple times when we're laying there, and we have to we can't move because what we're doing, we may be doing overwatch for a patrol, and it's sort of well, this is the way the game is played, they shoot at us and we shoot at them. So, you know, a lot of times we we we're exposed to that, and then okay, well, once maybe we've made our engagement or or we've gathered the intelligence we need, well, now we need to leave. And now they know we're there. So there's a there's that vulnerability now that I'm coming, I have to walk back to where I started from, and now maybe it's daylight. Now they know I'm there. What's what's up ahead? What's next? So, you know, it's just multifaceted from from start to go. Yeah, from start to start to finish.
SPEAKER_03:They're sending people out to look for you, actively look for you, right? So that's gotta be a uh I mean just an overriding. How am I gonna not be found?
SPEAKER_00:Um they would and and kids a lot of time they would in Afghanistan particularly, they would send a kid out, and you would just watch a kid come walking out and he would just start looking, would just start looking for you. And you know he's going back to tell someone who who doesn't like us, you know, what he saw.
SPEAKER_03:So what how do you deal with that mentally? I mean, uh there's gotta be, you know, just if there's an emotional construct there, obviously, but the mental anguish and the mental discipline that that takes strikes me as being uh almost inhuman, you know, like it's it's part of it's part of the job, it's part of the environment that we're in.
SPEAKER_00:And we we plan for these, we have contingencies for these. We we're always you know, we always whenever we're out and we're in a position or we're moving, we're always thinking, okay, what if we get uh contact from the left, from the right, from the rear or the front? What if this, what if this? So we we we have uh we're always thinking, we're always uh assessing, and we you just we're waiting to react. And uh I I think uh with that with the training, and I think a big part is the sniper training itself, just the the mental aspect of it, how mentally tough it is, it you don't think of it at the time, but it's it's preparing you and it's helping you for when you get into those stressful situations, you know, in combat.
SPEAKER_03:What was the you think there was a a toughest thing? Was there a a a uh a hurdle that you had to get over that you look back and think that was the crucible moment?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the hurdle from and I did I did sort of three tours that were not really combat focused, and then in 2006 into Kandahar, and the hurdle was just to accept that you might die. And and once you kind of maybe not accept it but come to terms with it, and you do that, you have to do that. I had to do that very quickly, and then you know, then you get on with your job.
SPEAKER_03:Boy, not not something that most people ever have to deal with. I mean, I'm getting older and thinking, you know, yeah, it's coming, right? It's it's coming. Um, but it's not like that, and anywhere near like that. Umir, how about what what are what have you seen? What's the thing that stood out the most? I think you've alluded to some of it, but as you've been studying Barry and and and learning to appreciate the role of the sniper playing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I am better looking than Barry, so I've learned that immediately. But uh no, in all seriousness, oh Lord. You know, I've always had a great uh great affinity or affection for the grunt for the infantryman, be that an ancient Roman legionnaire or you know, someone like Barry, but the infantry, I think that job, that combat arms job as an infantry man or woman, is probably the hardest thing in the world. People don't appreciate all the stuff you have to learn. And you know, having gone through certain selection courses, being in an in a sort of elite American unit, you understand standards, you understand a certain mindset, you are you are trained to a degree to accept that your job is to go in harm's way, to kill or be killed. And the thing I really learned with uh with from people like Barry and Gordon is that they had a huge background in basic infantry training and jobs that they held as infantrymen before many of them even became snipers. So, really becoming a sniper is like the the tip of the spear of you know being a great infantry soldier, really on infanterie, whatever it's called. I think Canadians have a bizarre term for an infantryman, you know, probably some French term, but um just the the exceptionalism of uh of the snipers because they put a lot of pressure on themselves. You you've already proven yourself, you've gone through various courses, basic, whatever, martyrman, uh reconnaissance, you know, whatever. You've done all this, you've already challenged yourself. And then when you when you talk to Barry, you talk to Gordon, you talk to other guys, you read their chapters, you go through their chapters, you really discover the the internal drive to be the best or to overcome these hurdles that are thrown in your way. And when you read Barry's stalking chapter, which I think is one of the greatest chapters written on sniping, and you're like, this is really hard. And you're putting so much pressure on yourself, it's not even the the the trainers that do this, it's it comes from within. And I think that separates a lot of people. Do you have that in you to put up with all of this, to challenge yourself to the highest degree, to the highest standard? And can you push through it and can you make it? Sometimes there's luck. You know, you can't dismiss luck. Sometimes you're the greatest at your job, but you're unlucky on that day and you don't make it. But it's that internal thing, the pressure you put on yourself. I think that's what separates snipers, I think, from most infantry guys and women.
SPEAKER_03:So is there a um I've been trying to think of how to ask this question. And I'm thinking in theater terms, there's there are roles that we are asked to play, you know, throughout our life, you know, in the role of a father, the role of a husband, um, the role of a you know, an honorable person. Um, is there a role that snipers are asked to play that is, you know, on one side a role that's uh you think of I'm I'm proud of that role that I get to play? I'm I'm humbled by this role that I get to play in this thing, you know, called war and conflict and you know, the the right versus the not right, you know, that it a lot of war becomes. Um that's how at least we we tend to think of it. You know, there's a good side and there's a bad side, right? Um, and is there a role that is really hard to play? That you know, you you recognize that it's part of the job, you know, it is it's something that you need to, you know, kind of uh reconcile yourself to, and yet it doesn't change the fact that it is a difficult role.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's just when I when I think of an answer to that question, it's it's more from a soldier's perspective. And I think the hardest role to play is is when you have to deal with loss. And you have to deal with honestly, just when you have to deal with loss. I don't think it matters if what position you hold, if you you know, you're in combat and and you're dealing with with friendly loss. I think that is you know, that is always one of the that's the hardest. That has always been the hardest for me to deal with.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I would think. I mean, these are guys that you've trained with or that you know you've been friends with. And what Band of Brothers is kind of a good example of that, right? These guys that just have to deal with these ongoing losses and you know, yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you would ever I mean that that strikes me as those are lifelong wounds too. Um that but you know, we honor those folks by just remembering how much of an impact they made in their lives. What about the role that you you would enjoy the most or are proudest of?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, as a sniper, I think we we would get we would have a lot of responsibility um because a lot of times we might be the we might be the first group to deploy on an operation. We might be the first guys to go out and and get eyes on. And then we have that added responsibility a lot of times as if those other friendly forces are coming into the areas, we're watching them, we're protecting them, and we need to make sure we're doing everything we can do to allow them to move safely to where they need to go.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you really are the centuries of that in in many ways, right? The or sheepdogs. Yeah, yeah, the canary, right? So what Mir, what what uh is there something that yet as someone that's written about this, is there something that um uh you know, I we've talked about a certain writer that wrote a whole bunch of World War II books, and part of what made him popular was kind of a hype that he generated, you know, uh uh, you know, it became chic to know more about, you know, World War II in some ways. Is there something that you think we need to educate ourselves more about to avoid hype and instead see the profundity of what a soldier is asked to do, and in particular a sniper is asked to do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we need to all move to Canada. So that would be the first thing, because they're they're not as militarized as we are in the United States. But uh, you know, I I I I want to add a couple things here, but and I'll get to your question also. I know we're running out of time, but you know, I've been very fortunate that I managed to get into a good unit, but my military service was cut short because of some injuries and all that. Um so I never was in the position that Barry or Gordon or others have been in, or a lot of our guys down in the US, right? So I've never had had to go to combat, which is a good thing. And we're not talking about civilian things here now. That's a whole different ball of wax here. But uh so I think ultimately the we're talking about history preserving things like that. I think the most uh honest thing any writer can do, be that Barry, any you perhaps, even in a play, whatever it is, is to be honest. You know, war isn't, I don't think, and from all my experience, you know, I've I've interviewed hundreds from World War II through modern. You know, uh you get all kinds, and you gotta remember who says what, why, and who they're saying certain things. I think the key thing always is to be honest, to remind people, yeah. Barry and his team out his detachment out there doing Overwatch, protecting other infantry guys going doing their job. And the other thing we got to remember is let's be honest about that. Not everything is gonna be successful, not everything is glorious. And we should also never confuse soldiers with the politicians who send them in the first place, right? I mean, the soldier is professional uh because we're all volunteer uh volunteers in the military, nobody is drafted. So you sort of should have an understanding of what you're getting into. You probably don't until you're actually there doing it. But I think the disservice, the disservice are things like the greatest generation, uh, you know, waving the flag, the the overt patriotism. I'm not against some of it, you know. I'm I mean, I remember Barry saying, you know, he's buried friends under the Canadian flag. So I understand the validity of that argument, but uh ultimately I think we need to be honest and we need to accept the fact that probably 95% of all the campaigns, the wars, whatever you want to call them, are really not necessary. And I think there are political forces in play, and they're never the ones who have to actually do anything, right? They collect their money, they make the decision, Barry does his job, and then he comes home and deals with it for better or for worse. Usually in Barry's case, he's a great guy, so is Gordon. So, but you know, not everybody can come out of that. Um it depends how you're raised, and it depends what society does, right? If you are heavily militarized, then you know, the guy in uniform who is, you know, delivers you logistics is a hero. And quite frankly, I find that a bit offensive because you're not, you're just a worker in a large corporation, the genuine people who risk life and take life. I think we should look at them not in awe, but we should be appreciative that they are doing the things that most of us wouldn't do. They are probably less than 1% of all people in the military. Barry is the one percenter, and probably less than that, of actual people fighting in wars. So, and I'm not talking about people sitting at a base and an occasional mortar attack, I'm talking about people who go on a hill, who expose themselves to enemy fire, who shoot, take lives, lose their friends, whatever. You know, that's something we should always honor in the traditional sense of writing about it and making sure we preserve the history. Because if if Barry and Gordon didn't want to write this book, sure, there are some Canadian sniper books out there, but they're memoirs usually, or they're maybe not as accurate as I think they should be. So I think as historians, as soldiers, you should on occasion write your own stuff to preserve the preserve it for for history. So 50 years from now, some guy can come back or a woman look at it and say, Ah, these were the experiences. Ah, I did not know this, I did not know that. Because we always think, you know, Hollywood, this because that's what we're exposed to most of the time. So or or authors who are looking at making a buck instead of preserving proper history. That's also an issue. Anyway, I'm rambling.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, no, so you are so it's there's a lot packed into that. So I ramble a lot too, just ask my wife. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. Um it's but you're into you're into drama, so we understand that. Well, yeah, I mean, you gotta remember that. So um there's uh yeah, and I I keep thinking about the the whole MAGA movement, you know, make America great again. And I I think that to me, that's offensive. That not only offensive because of the arrogance of it, but the disrespect. Because I I always want to say, wait a minute, wait, wait a minute. When when did America stop being great? When did all of these people and their sacrifices and all of the things that we've tried to do, the best of us, right, have tried to do for people in need. I mean, Haiti would get, you know, destroyed by a hurricane, and we were the first ones there oftentimes. You know, we were, we got there and did things to help as quickly as possible. Um, and Canadians do as well. I mean, there's this fabric of people that just get in and do the right thing. And and that there should be respect for what that takes and who those people are. And we don't, they don't want accolades. That's the thing that's most respectful of it is most of the people that are doing that don't want accolades. They don't want people to go, oh, you're so wonderful. They want people to just respect and listen to what they have to say about their lives, their stories.
SPEAKER_01:Um Yeah, I have to say in Canada, this is a particular problem. Well, I shouldn't say problem, but it's not as militarized.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:At the same time, people like Barry and Gordon and others, and like I said, the sniper book is really about all snipers across Canada. It's not just about the Royal Canadian Regiment. It should be reflective of the experience of Canada's snipers in Afghanistan. But there should at least be an acknowledgement, you know. I mean, the soldiers aren't there saying, oh, you know, we have to go and invade whatever country. I mean, these are political decisions. And you do go do your job because you signed up. It's as simple as that. And sometimes, from my experience, you know, you want to go to war because you've been training all your Life. Well, you've trained some time and you want to know if you can do it or not. But it's also a foolish youth thought, you know. I think as you get older, you reflect a little bit more on things, and you're like, ah, I'm very happy I didn't have to do it. At the same time, Barry has a great really made a great comment to me long time ago. It always sticks with me. It's about Afghanistan didn't ref uh define me, it refined me as a as a person. And he's a very reflective, smart young guy. You know, he's only 65, I think, at this point. So, but but as as I what I'm basically saying is we should be appreciative of the people who do the the dirty work, if we want to call it dirty, to do the the hard grit that others are comfortable sending sending younger guys to go do, or women, of course.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, yeah, I I just think some of them they just they really do need to work at McDonald's or something, you know, to just get more in touch with what normal people deal with on a daily basis, you know. Yeah, true. Yeah, it's uh it's not life is hard, yeah. It's not easy being green, you know, current figures. It is not so gentlemen. I you know, time is out, and I uh I I warned you, I warned you ahead of time. I was all hyped up and I didn't know how I was ever gonna keep this to an hour, but I do hope we can uh and we'll find some time in the future to continue the conversation. Um, and definitely you'd want to. I mean, that that's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Next next time you should just have Barry, then you won't have some guy insane guy rambling all day long. Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:We wouldn't have anyone to make fun of then. I don't know. That's true. You know, because Barry just sits there and yeah, Barry sits there and takes it, and I can see in his eyes he's just going, okay, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, next time I see me.
SPEAKER_00:I'll get I'll get my payback. Yeah, I'll just knock his cane out from under him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. Uh you have to deal with each other a lot more than I do. I'm sure you've got your thing. True. So yeah, but thank you for it. But it's been great. So it's really been great. So our our guest today have been Barry Nisbet, uh, who is a former Canadian sniper. Uh, if you would want to read a fun book, if you want to read a fascinating book, please get a copy of Send It. Uh, it's a Canadian sniper's story. There's a whole bunch of Canadian sniper stories uh about the memoirs of actually being in the role of a sniper and what what the challenges are, the mental psychological challenges and physical challenges. Um, just if you like you know the grit of what it is to actually go out and do the job that politicians call them to do, uh, it's a great book. And uh Mir, Ba Baha Daha. So good enough for Ba Manyar. So Mir Ba Ba Manyar is uh was a co-author of this book. Uh and uh and is uh has his own. What do you have 12 books that you've written, Mir? Is that uh the the latest being the Houdini Club? Is that well, actually the latest is the first one?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the latest is Sended, which I'm very proud of, actually. I really love Sended. It came together better than I had thought.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I'm gonna say just from little what little I've read about it, if you liked Ambrose's books, you're gonna love Mir's books because Mir is actually dealing with it with the real guys telling the real stories and the the real situations. There's no Hollywood fluff, in spite of his Holloway Hollywood background, is managed to avoid that. Uh, and it is for someone that's a World War II affectionato, like I am. I can tell already it makes a good read from just the few chapters that I was able to read. So, gentlemen, it's been an honor, honestly. Uh, my pleasure, my honor um meeting you both and getting to talk with you. Um, I I I want to meet you and talk with you again for selfish reasons, completely selfish reasons, because I want to get to know you better if I can. So thank you much. So thank you. Been listening to your profiles and leadership, frame of reference. We are and continue to be the most fascinating podcast out there. So please tune in again for next week's guest as well. Take care, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you.
unknown:And
