Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference - Coming together" are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Trust, Community, And A $25,000 Promise
A massive heart attack at 2 a.m., a choice to stay, and a vow to be useful—John Stewart Hill turned a brush with death into a movement that protects homeowners and celebrates great tradespeople. I sat down with John, founder and chief ambassador of The Good Contractors List, to unpack how a third-party guarantee and serious vetting can transform an anxious, two-way agreement into a safer, more respectful partnership.
John walks us through the early days—selling coupons, carrying a yellow legal pad, and pitching a radical promise: we’ll separate the good from the bad, and if the job goes wrong, we’ll pay up to $25,000 to make it right. That pledge forced rigor: FBI-level background checks, pattern-spotting across business entities, and zero tolerance for rudeness or bait-and-switch tactics. We get real about why “buck in a truck” shops often lack resources to fix issues, how mega contractors can over-incentivize upsells, and why the competency-rich middle is where value, safety, and honesty meet.
What makes this model stick is community. Contractors refer fellow pros they trust, hold each other accountable, and create local “safe contractor communities” that homeowners return to for roofing, plumbing, HVAC, and beyond. The result is collective authority: a network built on behavior, not hype, where the guarantee and mediation keep projects on track when delays or surprises appear. In a post-COVID, AI-noise world, verifiable action beats loud claims—and this platform’s small out-of-pocket history across billions in backed work speaks for itself.
If you’re a homeowner who wants peace of mind or a contractor who runs on integrity, this conversation shows how to raise the bar and rebuild trust where it matters most: at home. Explore the network, refer a contractor, or join the community at thegoodcontractorslist.com. Enjoyed the story? Follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more people find trustworthy help.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Well, welcome everyone to another edition of Frame of Reference Profiles and Liter Leadership. I'm your host, Raul Rush, and uh I have with me across the screen from me one of these days I'm gonna get to do this live with people, you know. We'll just call them, say, yeah, I'll fly you in at 2 p.m. and we'll talk for an hour, then I'll fly you back to wherever you want to go. That would be wonderful to have that kind of funding, wouldn't it? So but uh my guest today is someone that I, you know, I've just been rocking with these uh guests lately of people that are fascinating to talk to, and I am fascinated to have the opportunity to introduce you to them if you don't know them already. And if you do know them, well, then you're gonna be more excited to hear more about them, right? So, and today's guest is uh nothing short of that and more. John Stewart Hill is across the screen from me. And uh, John is the uh founder and chief ambassador for a company called Good Contractors, um, the Good Contractors List. And I'm gonna let him tell you more about it in a bit. But um, John, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me. Um it's really a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much. An honor to be here. So, John, I'm I'm gonna start with our our uh infamous uh my favorite things um portion of the show. We like to uh go through and just kind of do a Rorschachtian kind of thing where I say something and ask you what it is, what your favorite thing is, and you blurt out with the first thing that comes to your mind. So if you blurred out the wrong thing, sorry. Uh if you blurred out good things, great. If you blurred out a thing that you wish you could retract, eh, that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Do I have to be on the show now? I'm getting ready to do it.
SPEAKER_02:Right. What's your favorite podcast ever? Yeah, ding, ding, ding. He wins telling what he's one time I'm part of. So, okay. Well, here we go. We're gonna start really easy with something that's pretty benign, right? Your favorite color. Black. Black reason I really like black. Really? You're a basic black kind of guy, huh?
SPEAKER_00:I am a black and white guy.
SPEAKER_02:Well, well, you know, that there's lots of room for that in today's world, I think, actually. Um I'm uh thankfully not wearing gray. I'm but I'm kind of a colorful guy. You can probably tell that from my flannel shirt here in Wisconsin. How about a favorite place to go when you need to de-stress?
SPEAKER_00:Outside. I mean, I I live on a 25-acre ranch, so I like to walk out and I'll just walk out with my horses and just love on those guys. And man, uh for some reason, horses just it, they they just take all that angst out of you. Sure. So that's why I really my favorite thing is really just to walk outside my door and go uh out there with my animals.
SPEAKER_02:Boy. Isn't that you know, and horses? I I've not had horses in my life, and I've been around them somewhat, but um, you know, I watch a lot of videos of uh dogs and horses and cats and stuff. And horses, uh, you know, I've known people that are huge horse lovers. I mean, they raise horses, they've, you know, have loved horses since they were little, um, and you have that special dynamic relationship that I think people only have with horses. So dogs are similar, but a horse is a kind of a different thing altogether. Um, and then I watch these videos of like horses with dogs and horses with their people and even mules with their people. And it's uh it's really fascinating to me how that bond is really strong. Um, and the our our two species have learned to just depend on each other so much. Um, it's really kind of cool, cool thing.
SPEAKER_00:It's awesome. Yeah, I have a couple of miniature donkeys as well. I like to play around with their names are Bubba and Forest, Jump Brothers there.
SPEAKER_02:Bubba and Forest. I'm liking that a lot. Someday I hope to get down there and meet Bubba and Forrest. That would be that would be awesome. That would be something. So how about do you have a favorite scene as we're talking about dogs? Do you have a favorite kind of dog or a species of dog breed?
SPEAKER_00:I've been really drawn toward the the blue healer lately. I uh I'm really drawn toward those. I I don't know why. I think it's just their loyalty and um the the fact that they can be very trainable and uh you know just can't sit still. I guess I'm trying to pick something that's like me. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's not a bad thing. So I've always appreciated that dogs are really one of the purest forms of unconditional love that we probably get to experience here in this plane. Um it's uh I tell friends of mine, you know, there's a reason why dogs spelled backwards is God, because they're supposed to kind of teaching us some things about what we need to be like. So in our approach to Him. So uh how about uh do you have a favorite book?
SPEAKER_00:A favorite book, the Bible, of course. That's the one thing I've actually been able to read more. I'm not much of a reader, I kind of like audiobooks a lot better, but um, when I do read, I mean it's usually uh stuff that that's uh dealing with the Bible.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Do you think there's one particular author, like um say devotional series? Is there one particular you know author or um person that you you think has got uh speaks to you, I guess ultimately I would say because I think that all the devotional you know different kinds of approaches to things, and I I think like Charles Swindahl, you know, the uh Chuck Swindle.
SPEAKER_00:I used to love Chuck Swindahl a lot. He had uh this book called Grace Awakenings. I don't know if you've ever read that book, but it played a big factor in my life, that book, um Grace Awakenings. Chuck Swindl is actually one of my favorites, yes. He nailed it there.
SPEAKER_02:He had one called uh Seasons of Life that I read years and years ago, and I I loved that because he Chuck just has a really kind of a common sense way to approach things, and yet there's a lot of you know, very profound theology in what he talks about as well. So um I was really really impressed by you know, here's someone who's walking the line between what's that old thing, um, you know, don't be so um heavenly minded that you're no earthly good. He was kind of he walks that line really nicely, I think, or does. Um, how about you have a favorite um movie? Nice and easy.
SPEAKER_00:Believe it or not, Forrest Gump. That's why I name my donkey Bubba and Forrest. Uh, Forrest Gump is probably uh I I've a lot of people have asked me over the years if I was a minister or anything, and I'm I always say I'm more like Forrest Gump than I am Billy Graham. Yeah, you know, yeah in that I just kind of feel like I move at the pace of what leads me. And um, and that and that so that movie probably encapsulates everything that I uh I love about life, and that's it could change on a dime and you don't know who you're touching.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Boy, that yeah, that that movie has uh that's one of those that I every time I go back to it, it's like I know exactly what's gonna happen, but it just sort of like, yep, yep, yep. Which that I don't think you can have enough of that kind of reminding of that's he's got it. Boy, he understands it, boy, he does. Um, how about uh do you have a favorite food?
SPEAKER_00:Oh gosh, well, right now I'm on the carnivore diet, so uh uh eating steak is is actually been fantastic in sticking with meats. Oh man, um yeah, I was I had diabetes, and so uh because I like pizza, I like hamburgers, you know, I like all the pasta and all that stuff, and so my blood sugar was pretty bad. So I I switched over to that carnivore diet, and man, I mean it went from uh A1C of nine down to 5.6. Wow. So so it's working. I mean, okay, yeah, it's so I really love it because it makes me healthy. It may not be my favorite to eat, but right, right.
SPEAKER_02:I've always thought I'm gonna write a diet book that says you want a diet, get ready to be hungry. So because there should always be some of that. No pain, no gain, right? So how about what one last question? Um, is there a favorite memory, John, that you have from from childhood? Usually, I mean, we go back that far. Some people, it's like I don't want to remember my childhood. Um, but that you it I and I'm looking for those things that we have that we grow up in, you know, at the time it maybe doesn't seem like much, but then as our lives go on, we go, you know, that was really an important thing, or you know, that was really important conversation I had with my dad, or boy, I didn't realize how much I was gonna miss. Uh for me, I I think about bread and my grandma LaBresh baking bread in her kitchen up in you know, Menominee, Michigan, and how smelling bread being baked will make me go back to that moment. And it's always just a good thing to remember, to recall. So, do you have something like that that you could share that just you find is a a comforting place to relive?
SPEAKER_00:You know what's what was so uh impactful to me when I was really young is I really did feel like I uh I remember that feeling of innocence and and truly believing that Jesus loved me and and how I was just one with nature. It was like I was an only child, so I spent a lot of time alone, but those times outside I never felt alone. And so I I've I recall back to those times, you know, when I get so busy that I I wonder sometimes if I'm doing the right thing or you know, if if God really does still consider me. And I I look at that and go, that's really when I was probably the closest to God that I ever been, was whenever I just truly just let him love me and I loved him back out there by myself.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so those are the memories that that uh lately I've been clinging to a lot more because that he we had it right when we were innocent, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, you know, and and we complicate things so much, right? We we let we let all kinds of systems get put on top of this the simple being with God, you know. It's uh yeah, you know, that that whole uh Emmanuel we try to perform a lot, right? Right, or we're or we're trying to earn it somehow, or um you know, instead of just saying be still and know that I am God, right? I mean there's it's super simple, but you know, just like a lot of things in life, those things that look simple are really difficult. And I don't know why, but it's you know great mystery. So well, let's talk a little bit about good contractors list. So, what led to that? Because that's a fascinating story. I think people need to hear that. Um, that you were at one place in your life, and then this happens as an idea. Tell me about that journey, where you were, how you got to that place, and then uh, you know what what brought about the good contractor list?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I sure wish I could say it was because I was super smart and I really had all this business acumen. And I I just thought one day of this great thing that I could do for the world and make a lot of money, but that's not really where it came from. I was I was down and out, man. Um, I was 42 years old, been divorced three times, um, didn't did not have uh anything that I could say I was proud about, other than my children being born. And uh so I was at a place where I was just praying, God, I don't want to be here anymore. I was depressed, I didn't see any value uh that I would ever bring to the earth. And so um in February of 2011, um, God gave me that chance and I I had a massive heart attack. Um, and uh and so I ended up in the hospital, and it was during a big freeze that happened in the Dallas Fort Worth area. There was a Super Bowl that year in 2011, and uh big old freeze hit here, and uh went to the hospital. Uh first they said it was pneumonia, and then uh because they saw that my lungs were full of fluid, and they didn't find that it was a heart attack until much later in the night. And it was probably about 2 a.m. Um, when the doctor came back in and said, This just doesn't resemble pneumonia. I don't understand what's going on here. We need to do some more blood work. And when she came back in, and this is the doctor that's on, you know, there at midnight and till and beyond, um, she's like, Well, uh, John, I think you need to call your family and have them come back up here. And I'm like, Uh, why? Uh, you know, it's it's late, it's freezing, and you know, I don't want them getting out on that street. And they're she's like, Well, it's not pneumonia, uh, it's your heart. And I was like, Oh, okay. And and so we're gonna do some more tests, just have them come up here. And so uh I was laying there in the bed, and the I heard could overhear the conversation that was happening out in the hall. And there was a uh a nurse talking to the doctor, and she goes, Don't you have to have permission from the director to move him to ICU? And her response was, not in this case, he's tombstone. And I was like, Tombstone. I mean, I was like, I I didn't I I didn't figure she was talking about pizza. So I was like, um likely not something serious is happening. You know, well, I'd been praying for two months that God would take me, you know, and uh uh I thought, wow, this is my opportunity. Like if if this is really gonna be death for me, it's really not that bad. I was thinking this, you know, I've got oxygen pumping in me, I'll probably just fade off. And and I was thinking, you know, I can repent right now, and you know, there won't be another chance for me to sin before I die. You know what I mean? It's like it's like I'm gonna skid through there, you know, like the uh the thief on the cross, you know, uh last minute make it in. But uh uh they as they were rolling me to ICU, uh I really felt this strong impression, like God, you know, it's not it wasn't an audible voice, but it was so loud and kind of out of nowhere. Um, and it was just, well, John, do you want to stay or do you want to go? And so I uh took it very soberly because no, I really didn't want to be here. But in in my heart of hearts, I heard God saying, and is is as clear as I could have it heard, is that if you decide to stay, I'll be with you and I'll give you a purpose. And I was like, okay. So it took about an hour for the cardiologist and his team to get in there, even after all this stuff had happened. Uh so they had me uh up in the up in the room and and all the staff uh that were there in the middle of the night were all behind the glass watching me. I could just see the concern on their faces. Nobody figured I was gonna make it at this point. Uh it was a massive heart attack. Um, but the the uh while I was there, I was just considering all the things that where I was in my life, you know, and I was like, I don't know what I'd be remembered for. Like I know my kids would remember me. Then there might be a few people that go, Oh, yeah, he was a nice guy. It's too bad he died too early, you know, or whatever. But I really didn't do anything that I felt like, you know, had any real value on this planet, you know, and so that's where I was, and so I I thought about it. And since I really did believe that God was involved in this, I I came to him with a presentation.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I said, God if you'll jump to your attention to the screen here, I'd like to show you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. And so I um I said, All right, God, I'd like to stay if it's okay with you. But I don't want to be the same guy I've been. And here's the things that I want if I do stay. One, I wanted to be remembered for doing something good. That was because I just uh that whole time I was thinking about how I really hadn't done anything. I want to be remembered for doing something good, and then I want to be alive every day, not just live. You know, I I wanted to live every day, not just be alive. I'm sorry, that just opposite that. I wanted to live every day, not just be alive, and I wanted to touch as many people as I could uh while I was uh remaining here on earth. And all I can say is that the energy that I felt in that room, uh if I if I actually did hear a voice, a voice before, this one was 10 times louder, and it was so be it, and it was so strong, and I knew that I was gonna live. And so if I could see into the spirit realm, I would think the way it felt was like he was dancing around that hospital bed saying, That's my boy, you made a good choice. I'm gonna be with you, I'm gonna give you a purpose. And so, you know, I clung to that, and so um I uh he the doctor got there, there was a hundred percent blockage in one artery, 95% in the other. I'd had a massive heart attack, and over 40% of my heart was scar tissue at this point. Um, he's like, I'm not really sure if I can uh if I can do this with stents, but I'm I may have to crack you open. And that's what he said.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm awake for this because you know, he they're not gonna put me to sleep with it as dangerous as it was. And so I said, Go ahead, do whatever you need to do. I'm gonna be here. I I I knew it. And so he went in, put in three stents, uh, pumped the die back through, and it showed that it was going through and pumping through the rest of my heart, you know, and so the everybody behind the glass was hollering and clapping and doing all kinds of whooping, you know, it's like that. I can't believe this guy's still on this earth, you know. Um, and so that's where I was. And and um my heart was damaged severely, uh had congestive heart failure and a pacemaker. Um, so I left the hospital in worse condition than I went in as far as physically goes. Um nothing changed. I I was still selling coupons, is what I was doing for a job. But I left there knowing I had a purpose and that God was gonna show me what I needed to do. And that's what I that's what I my absolute faith was in when I left there not knowing where it was gonna take me.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, and that what's amazing to me about that is you essentially got into a bargain with God. You know, it was uh, you know, let's make a deal with God, right? And and he not only loves you enough to spare you, but he loves you enough to honor that your your desires, your your wishes that you had were all good and honoring to him ultimately, because you weren't gonna just go do those, you weren't saying, I want to be really famous, God. You know, you're saying, no, I want to touch people's lives, God. You know, I want to make a difference for people's lives. Well, what is that except God's love being transmitted to those around us, right? So it's it's it's an amazing story of the faithfulness of God and the faithfulness of his people, and how the two of those together just move incredible mountains. And you know, if we could just get a hold of that and say, stop, stop, stop, and just say, God, I want to do these important things and I want to do them for you, period. So think of how much different the world would be with, you know, just a small group of people doing that, right? So I'm sorry, so then you're you're at this point, you're still selling coupons, but and you're in horrible shape healthy wise, but you're alive. You're alive. Okay, we got that going for you.
SPEAKER_00:Like I said, I've already been divorced three times, but I was living with my girlfriend at the time, and she and she gave me the uh the question that I uh never been asked. Um, well, John, you need medical insurance. Why don't we get married? So it wasn't uh it was kind of a why not wasn't the most romantic task, but you know, it was the greatest thing. I love, I mean, my you know, at that time I had two girls and uh you know we a marriage of convenience.
SPEAKER_02:What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it seemed seemed so like like but I know God brought us together, you know, and it's it's it's really cool to to look now, and we have we have five kids all together. We have seven grandkids. Oh my life back then where I thought I was gonna have nothing, is is just uh God has kept every promise, every promise that He gave me that day. Um, to include that I believe that the good contractors list is the is the platform that is going to be able to tell get this story out there and that it'll be it'll be something where I can actually inspire and touch the world now. I mean, as many people as can hear this, I'm hoping that they understand their value, that even when you think you're the absolute bottom of the barrel, um, no use, God knows how to use the unusable. And that's where I was. And so I'm just I I I'm a living testament to that. And so when I got out of the out of out of the hospital, we got married right away. Um, and I left going, I have a purpose, and that's all I knew. I I didn't have any kind of contracting background or anything like that. Like I said, I was selling coupons, and what I did front prior to that was selling yellow pages. And back then, when I was selling yellow pages, uh, I there was a few times that I was selling to contractors, and I remember the bigger the ad, the the more I would find about the contracting company that I did not like. And and in those ads, you could say anything about yourself. And so I remembered thinking, oh my gosh, there is nobody protecting anybody out there, you know, um, from these guys. And so uh when I I was I was out there selling coupons, like and uh I had a contractor that was a local guy that was well uh loved and and known. And he said, you know, John, I don't think I I want to uh I don't have the money to do this whole thing by myself, but I know a couple of other contractors that that do other things, like I have a roofer and electrician that I think uh I would uh could is it okay if we share an ad? And I started thinking about that. And I was like, you know, really the pro it'd probably be better to have a website where you know y'all could be on there and we just we just advertise that one thing. And it was just like like a light bulb came on, is like, this is what I want you to do. And so I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I had a chance, you know, because I was getting paid a salary to go out and sell these coupons, I had a chance to to see if someone would even buy into this idea that I had um while I was out there and had a little salary. I I was making$35,000 a year, and um, you know, I mean, and but I was like, there's no way I'm gonna do something on company time that I'm not stealing from this company to see if my ideal work because I really truly felt like this came from God. So I went in it and marched into the office and said, I've got this idea, and I I had no money. I'm telling you, I had one paycheck left. And I said, I can't, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to quit because I want to really see if this idea works. Never built a business before. I mean, no sign that I would ever even have uh any luck, you know, at all in this. And I stepped away from there and went out and started talking to contractors, brought my yellow legal pad, and I said, This is what I imagine the website will do one of these days. Give me some money, you know. I mean, it was just like, what in the world? I mean, it's like the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard, right? Um but right from the beginning, I said, you know, we're gonna separate the good guys from the bad guys, and we're gonna guarantee that uh that they're gonna that they're gonna do a good job, or we'll pay to fix it. I didn't have any money, right? It was just like it was like that's that's the model. It was just the right thing. Went out there and just started uh sharing it, and people just it was like the favor was all around me. And the contractors was like, God, if you can imagine to do something like that, I want to be a part of it. Yeah, and that was back in 2011. We just had our fourth annual 10 10-year dinner, and I still have and we have a lot of contractors who are who have been here more than 10 years who who started with me when I when I drove up in my little Pontiac G5, carrying my legal pad around with me.
SPEAKER_02:Don't lose those humble routes, routes, John. Don't lose those. So uh well, now you could ride up on horse. That would be kind of you know, with a white hat and everything and really have the deal, right?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I think they'd run from me at that point.
SPEAKER_02:Boy, I don't even know where to begin to ask questions about that. It it does hit me though, and I've thought about this before, as I looked into some of the information on your your project and you know your business. And it it I don't know how to reconcile this, but it does prove to me or show to me that people, enough people really want to do the right thing and be associated with people that do the right thing. And that one of the the things that you know, as I say, we live in pretty dark times right now. You know, there there's been so much polarization and so much, you know, anti whatever going on that we we've lost the the fabric, the continuity that we used to have when we all listened to the same news broadcast, at least back in the 60s when I was a kid. And you know, so we all had at least sort of a single concept of the world, you know, and now we don't. Now we have like, you know, 14 million different uh conceptions of the world and what's reality and what is and and who to believe and who not to. But this strike this strikes to me uh as something at the core of human beings, which is we want, most of us, we want to do good. We want to be associated with people that do good things. And we know the difference. We do know the difference, you know, that God-given ability where we can recognize all truth is God's truth, all beauty is God's beauty, all love is God's love. That, you know, somehow you're you're cutting through all that with this project in a really tangible way, which is fantastic. And you're putting some money where your mouth is, right? The$25,000 guarantee speaks volumes to people that don't, and that's God thing, that's great, but if he's gonna do a good job, that's what I care about. You know, the New Yorkers are happy with it, as well as the you know, the people from Kansas are happy with it, right? So, but um so what's your take on that? Do you think there is there a longing? Is that been part of this process? Is realizing how much people are longing for the breath of fresh air of somebody saying, I will guarantee that these are good people you're gonna work with. You know, like my uncle Joe would say, you know, you yeah, you want to work with Carl here. He's a great guy. Great. Uncle Clem says, I'm going with Carl.
SPEAKER_00:So well, you know, I think I think that I stumbled on something that really nobody ever thought about before. It's just the way it's always been. But if you think about uh the contractor-homeowner relationship, homeowners uh the only option they have is a two-way agreement them and the contractor. That's the way it's always been. But every horror story you ever hear about started with a two-way agreement. And at the end of that agreement, if there was a if there was a uh an issue, it was either it was just the contractor's word against the homeowner's word. And that's the way it is with every contractor on the planet. There's not, there hasn't been a third party that says, you know what, I'll not only vouch vouch for these guys, but if they don't do what they're supposed to do, you're not gonna have to pay for that, Mr. Homeowner, Mrs. Homeowner. You know, so we've been in a really unique position, but I I tend to believe that there are more good contractors out there than there are bad contractors.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but because of all the bad contractors, there's a lot of broken relationships out there. What we're finding is that homeowners, because they don't want to be made a fool of, they don't want to feel like they've been taken advantage of, that and when when incidents happen, and we're talking about a real world here, I mean anything could happen, deaths in the family, lose a crew, and they're trying to start uh with a new one, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to to working with contractors. But because of the fear that's in the uh that surrounds contracting, homeowners will jump to conclusions. And so if if they feel like the contractor might be taking them down a wrong road, they I mean, some of these guys get really mean with a contractor, they'll tear up the relationship, they say you're not allowed back in my house. And you know, uh they'll they'll go out and start badmouthing them on reviews and everything else. They don't because it's like it's just like once I feel like I'm uh made a fool of, I'm going to tear you up. And that's that's the way a lot of homeowners look at this. So, what I found is by having a third party involved, when little incidents like that happen, we're able to keep that from escalating by just saying, we're gonna be here through this whole thing. We know this contractor, we put our money on him, and just let them get to the end of this job. And if you're not happy, we'll make sure that you are. And so 99% of the issues are handled by just having somebody else that they can talk to.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What's that? I keep thinking the scripture, a court, uh, a court of three strands is not easily broken, you know, that we have that uh that sense going into it, right? So it's a great scripture. Are you are you um do you what are what are the stumbling blocks? Where where do things get you know tricky, I guess I'll say, in the process? Do you do you find anything in particular that either the contractor or the homeowner goes into uh the situation with a preconceived notion, maybe, or uh, you know, kind of not putting all their cards on the table and what that ends up doing to the dynamic? Um Because there's a I I find that you know that kind of project, I've done a lot of theater work in my in my background, and you know, you have to always understand that something's gonna come up that you didn't anticipate, right? And the real test is how do you respond to that? Do you go, you know, throwing a hissy fit and you know, a big histrionyx, you know, you don't you realize what this is gonna do to my art or in my time or whatever? And you know, just saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we all care about the same thing here, you know, we're all in this together to do a thing. Let's get back focused. So are there things like that in your world?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's that's the typical uh response that we have is like, this is a real world. The contractor wants to get to the end of this job. He didn't get into contracting so that he could get a bad name. Most of the time, uh the contractors are there because of how great it feels when they get to the end of the project and they know that they really made this homeowner happy or uh was able to do something that that made their life more comfortable or whatever the case may be. These contractors have a heart, but but you have to realize that there's a lot of moving parts and nothing is perfect. So sometimes it does take longer than than what was expected. Sometimes there's there's things that get in the way. And when you're working with a contractor, just know that if they have integrity enough to fix the problem, enough to uh at least communicate with you what's going on, that you just need to give them a chance. Yeah, and um, and so I I think by just us being there kind of as a counselor, a mediator, uh, it it takes away a lot of that fear. And so, you know, in in in 14 years, we've backed over five billion dollars in jobs because we don't just back the job that comes from us through our website, we back every job that contractor does. Okay, so they can go into a home and present that uh that I'm a part of an organization that does things right. And matter of fact, they they guarantee it, and all you have to do is go register for free. And that's it's simple. The homeowner doesn't pay anything for it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and then our contractors, we matter of fact, we uh now that we've expanded nationwide, our uh our goal is not necessarily to just uh get as many contractors as we can to pay us. We want to build safe contractor communities um in every city. And what that looks like here in Dallas Fort Worth is we have every type of contractor. Many of the contractors that come on are referred by other good contractors. So it's it's an organization and an entity where everyone feels confident in in referring each other and and uh bringing about business. So let's say uh where do you live?
SPEAKER_02:I'm in Wisconsin, outside of Madison, Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_00:So somewhere there in Madison, Wisconsin, um we we start with a roofer, and that roofer knows a plumber. And so they start bringing their all all the people that they trust into the organization. And while we're kind of overseeing things, they are the ones actually policing and making sure that everybody's doing what's right. Okay. They act as a network. And what's so cool about that is that you know, I I'd been in, I told you I sold yellow pages, and I never once heard if so and so is in your yellow pages, I don't want to be there. And that was one of the first things that I heard when I were I was sharing this good contractor's list is is the people who are on here want to hold me accountable to who's on that list. So if I if I uh just take money from everybody and they know that guy's a crook, then then I just lost the whole everything I'm trying to do here. Right. So it's really a community building a community. And what's happening on uh for the homeowner now is that as that plumber goes in there and gets them registered and says, hey, listen, go there to look for your your flooring guys, go there to look for your roofers, and and it becomes a it's called a collective authority. I'll call I call it collective authority marketing, okay. In that as a collective who who keep each other honest and doing a good job and and and raising the standard, homeowners will start going to that website because of the referrals coming from all the contractors. And now they're getting they're getting leads coming in that were developed by the group, you know, and so instead of having to market and spend a bunch of advertising money and it's actual referrals coming from good contractors. And uh, if you've ever had a good contractor, almost everyone gets asked, well, do you know a good whatever? Right. Because I like you, if you know more people like you, do you know somebody who can do my plumbing? Do you know somebody who can do sure you know uh the air conditioning or whatever their need is? So this is a good chance to operate as a collective.
SPEAKER_02:So what do you do about the unfortunately? I think there are um Lucifers out there, you know, angels that appear and uh to be what they are not. I mean, those people get found out eventually. I mean, ultimately. Is there a process that you go to a vetting process of sorts that at least makes it less likely to happen? Because I mean, you're right. What's what's the old thing about all it takes is one bad apple to uh to spoil a barrel, but there's also something about one one bad uh egg to spoil the potato salad. And again, that's probably more like what really happens. There's one egg that gets in there and just wrecks that potato salad, and all of a sudden the picnic is ruined. So, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I can tell you this is a funny thing because when you use the word turn, you use the term bad apple. If you Google bad apple and good contractors list, you'll find an ad, not an ad, a news story from way back when I first started. So we used to uh do background checks through a third party.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you know, and uh we had a guy that had one of his employees pose as the owner. And so they they gave their information. We ran the background check, everything was clear. We looked at their BBB, he had an A plus. Okay, so we're okay, I think we're good here. And um, the guy ended up just being a ripoff artist. I mean, and and he it was it took us about six weeks before we realized that other people were saying, hey man, he keeps pushing that date back on when he's supposed to get started. Or he just got started, he was here for a day, and I haven't been able to get a hold of him. And so uh we we uh we followed up on this. It had nine jobs that we had to go back on. We we gave some of those people their money back, uh the down payments that they did. We gave, and then some of them we brought our contractors in that was able to help finish the job, and it didn't cost them any more than what they had been bid, right? But um I was like, he's not getting away with this one. I called channel 11 and I said, I said, Hey, uh, this is John with the good contractors list. We had a contractor that has been uh is ripping off people. We took him off our list, but I need I need the the people in DFW to know that who this guy is. And so they did a news story, and we went to a homeowner's uh house there where uh it and he was a veteran who was uh losing his mobility, and and he had hired these guys to to redo the bathroom so that they could get in and out easily. And uh he that guy uh had took his money and never came to do any of it. So we we wrote them a check, brought the newscast there, did a story on it, and then outed this guy on public television, which kind of outed us, right? Right but um and and that was but I mean, at least the newscaster was like, you know, you could have swept this under the rug. Why would you go about, you know, saying something bad about your own company? And I was like, well, because that was my purpose. My purpose is to protect people, not sweep things under the rug when I know that there's something wrong. And so uh it really actually worked uh to our benefit greatly to do what we say we're gonna do. And we have for 14 years, um out of five billion dollars backed, we've had to come out of pocket$127,000. Wow. In 14 years. Wow. Um that's a testament to our process. And you know, when you put something out there and say, I'm good, if you put that good with a halo on it and you say I guarantee it by it with$25,000. Um, if there's somebody not doing what they're supposed to do, the flags come up very quickly. And so uh we've taken people off our list for just being rude people. And uh that that's there's no room for that. We don't need we don't need somebody out there that's belittling people. Um and uh I like to put I like to put contractors really into three different kind of boxes. Um there's buck in a truck, and you know, these guys are smaller. Uh a lot of times they don't have the resources they need that if something does go wrong, that they can have the money to fix it. And so what ends up happening, and th those guys take forever to get something done because they're small. Um, and if something goes wrong, they don't have resources. Now, on the opposite side of that is mega contractor, and those guys have million-dollar advertising budgets, they have fleets of trucks, and the only place that they're gonna get those paint payments made is through homeowners. So a lot of those guys, their their mission is to upsell, upsell, upsell, and you know, and and so most of the time they don't have technicians coming into your house, they have sales technicians coming into your house. So, so I like to really focus on that honest guy in the middle, you know, the one that runs his business well, that has insurance. Uh, he's not the cheapest guy, he's not gonna be. Um and I say he, but he, she, whoever the that the contractor is, they're they're probably not gonna be the cheapest, but they will save you more money than you know. Ultimately, it's the safe place to go. So that's the kind of contractors I'm looking for, is is the guys that's been around uh long enough to know how to run a business so they're not robbing Peter and to pay Paul, right? Who have a good online reputation and who has for who's forward thinking and how do I attract the the best talent and and really take care of homeowners? And so we've managed to put this system together to really really point that out and that is really, really, really wonderful.
SPEAKER_02:What are some of the markers along the line? Like I mean, from from 2015 or 2011. Okay, from 2011 to today, what if you look back at that, what are kind of the major mile markers you think that uh you accomplished or that you went, oh, we we hit a new level here. We just it's like you know, board gaming up, right? Oh, I'm at level six.
SPEAKER_00:So so well, you know, there's there's different markers. Uh one, I I loved it whenever I was out in public or whatever, and somebody saw me because in DFW I do TV ads and some radio ads and stuff. And uh I had a guy come up with his uh three daughters and and say, Oh, you're the good contractors list guy. And and I was like, Yeah, and he he goes, Oh, we hear you all the time on the radio. And then he goes, he calls his girls over, his three little girls, and goes, Sing them the jingle. And those little girls sang my jingle.
SPEAKER_02:It made my oh totally. That made my week, so maybe a month even. So goodness gracious.
SPEAKER_00:It was so sweet, and I was just like, Oh, well, that's so cool. And then uh then to hear homeowners say, I don't use a contractor if they're not on the good contractors list. Yeah, you know, uh, so and and we really appeal to the to the older generation, you know, because they get taken advantage of a lot. Yeah, and uh, and so uh they really appreciate us. So um that that particular demographic is is is loyal here in Dallas Fort Worth. And I think it's gonna be like that pretty much anywhere you go.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I would think so. I mean, people do, you know, we're kind of talking about a little bit before, right? The whole factor of who do you trust anymore? Um, you know, it used to be that you know you could trust close friends or whatnot, you know, and I hope most people can, but now so many people have just said, well, I don't talk to you anymore because he voted for Trump or he voted for Biden. And what's like, really? We're gonna destroy the entire fabric of our world because of politicians? Really? Yeah, you know, that that to me is has been horrible. And then COVID, you know, whether you believed in it or not, COVID did an awful lot to destroy our groups, you know, and and in fact, I up in our area, there was a veterinarian in uh lacrosse who wrote that um early on in the process that the thing that is most was most concerning to him as a veterinarian and as a medical professional in general was that it was it was the first disease that literally attacked our groups. It just didn't just attack our viral systems or whatever, it attacked our groups. So all the things that people identified with and identify with in general, or they defined themselves as, oh, my crochet club or my bridge club or my horse riding club, whatever, all those things that defined them were gone. And what did you have left to define yourself? You know, so it's it I think it's it's really wonderful that you're you're finding a way to restore that fabric. And, you know, what better way than around people's homes? Because a lot of who we are comes from the home we grew up in, right? So are you are you concerned? Are there are are things future challenges that you see that you think will really have to be met head on in order for this to continue growing, continue working?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I I don't know. I actually I can I kind of feel the opposite way about it. Uh with AI and everything else that's out there, um, I've heard from so many people how frustrated they are to not know what's real anymore. And what I feel like the good contractors list brings is an ability to say, okay, that group's real. You know, there's there's been uh more people looking at this. And and I mean, after that one incident that we had, we invested in FBI level background checks uh software. We're we pay$2,800 a month for just our background software because we want to know who that person is.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Is that a guy that shut down a business two years ago because he ran into the ground and now he's saying he's been in business 15 years with this new name? I mean, how often does that happen? Right, you know, so we're we're able to look and see associations, people they dealt with, people they work for. And so we we're able to determine, you know, okay, this guy seems solid. Um, and like I said, because there's I believe there's more good out there than there is bad, it's not hard pickings.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's it's really about if they really feel like they want to be a part of a community. And I think that is gonna be even more important going forward, is I don't want to be a lone ranger out here trying my hardest to stand out above the rest when I'm still gonna be labeled a bad contractor out of because of how people feel about contractors in general.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So if I could be on the good contractors list, you know, um, that will remove a lot of that, you know. And uh to know that I'm betting$25,000 on every job, and I there's a third party that they can call at any time to start the uh resolution process, man, it's been a great thing here, and I'm so proud to be able to offer it across the nation now.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and you have a pretty small team, what Aaron Bush is your CEO. Um, and then I saw someone else with the last name Hill. Any relationship to you?
SPEAKER_00:My wife. Oh yeah. My wife's here. It's been a small company. We've been a small company out in the D DFW area, and it's really funny because you know, everything that has happened has moved at the pace that of God opening the doors.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I did not go out looking to go nationwide. I always matter of fact, what's funny, uh mentioning Aaron, um, I I would tell people for a long time when they'd say, What are you doing with the good contractors list? Why aren't you doing this national? And I'm like, I don't even know what that looks like. I don't know what to do. I don't think it's time. Uh, you know, I I would don't have the energy for it. Um, but I had a heart transplant in uh 2022. So I find uh so I actually have a new heart um and new lease on life, and so a lot of energy. And this last year, um, I really felt like something was gonna change. There was gonna be something. But I but what what what I'd tell people whenever they'd ask me those questions is I you know, I feel a lot like Moses out in the desert. I'm just tending these sheep, you know, and I'm I'm doing what I can right now. And you know, if it's supposed to happen, God'll let me know. And out in that, out in the desert, um, there were two things that moved Moses out of that desert. It was a burning bush that he saw. And then when he went out there, he's like, God, I don't know how to talk. He goes, Okay, well, I'll give you your brother Aaron. And so God sends me a CEO, a Jewish CEO, by the way. Cool. Uh, by the name of Aaron Bush. You know, so um he he doesn't even try to hide.
SPEAKER_02:Could I spell it out for you, John? Or are you getting it now?
SPEAKER_00:Come on, it's not me, you know. I I didn't have the brains to do any of this stuff.
SPEAKER_02:It's like the Evelyn Woodhead Spen Redden course, right? So I'm John Hill and God had to spell it out for me with the name Aaron Bush. Yes, he's quite seeing you go.
SPEAKER_00:But now we have three different gentlemen who are who have decided they wanted to join. Um, and look, I I could never afford these three guys. They came in knowing this is gonna be humongous, you know. And they're they were like, John, we just want to be here. And so a lot they're working right now um at a very, very minute amount of money that they're used to making. Okay. And and so the structures being put together, um, the foundations are all there. We're able to keep our integrity. And I mean, we just mentioned uh it was probably two months ago that we decided that we were gonna absolutely that we were gonna go nationwide.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:And we are in 18 different states right now. We have contractors who are joining us from all over the place, and we make it really super easy. We don't uh we don't charge a lot to be a part of it, we just ask a lot, you know. Um for a$500 setup fee and$250 a month, every one of your jobs will be backed by a$25,000 guarantee. But we don't want just someone who wants to use this as a closing tool, right? We want we want contractors who are gonna help us build communities of contractors. And so we're gonna just give all the tools that we can. Uh we'll get the we'll give them the tools that they can register homeowners and tell their homeowners about it. And as they grow their groups, they themselves will uh will initiate more homeowners coming to the website because of the referrals, right? Which would which will mean that they're gonna now start getting phone calls and emails from a good contractors list website because people are starting to trust the group. So I'm looking for people who want to create safe contractor communities everywhere across the nation.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Which is I I love that you you use that word regularly because communities, you know, back in the day, that's how homes were built in communities by communities. You know, you bring the I in Wisconsin, there's an awful lot of German communities, you know, in Milwaukee where I grew up. Holy cow! You know, and that was Germans coming over to America and you know, getting in a particular area of Milwaukee. And then because they were Germans, they were a lot of them were good bricklayers because that's the kind of home they were used. So there's all kinds of brick homes all over Milwaukee because the Germans were there building those as a community, you know. It's so it's it's uh it's not a new model. I mean, you're not winning anything for originality, but you are winning it for coming back to home with uh things that become.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, when when we together are so much stronger, yeah, um, we have a voice that gets louder and louder as uh that collective authority grows in a market. Yeah, you know, it and and pretty soon you're well known. Yeah, and uh and it doesn't take uh TV ads and radio ads to do it.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Well, it you've got to resonate with something real, and the minute you start resonating with that, you've got all kinds of resonance going on. So yeah, I'm I'm a musician at heart too. I know you hit a G, and there's enough of the right kind of things around, everything will start resonating the G. You know, it's uh it's a fun thing to watch in nature for me. So yeah, exactly. So gentlemen, we're running out of time, and I I there is another topic I want to talk about. Maybe you and I can link up again. Um I'd love to talk about your church uh work that you're doing too, the Find a House Church um ministry that you've got going. That to me is another whole thing to get into. Um, but it'd be fascinating to hear that story and how that works because I I think I sense that there maybe would be places up here in Wisconsin and maybe across the world that would be very interested in that that approach to forming a different kind of community, right? A spiritual community in addition to a home building community.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, it's it's a free website that uh anyone can go to and and start utilizing right away. And that I kind of built it in the same way. It's that um uh the more people get the word out about the website, the more people go there.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And um, and so yeah, we'll talk more about that. That sounds great.
SPEAKER_02:So any how else can people get a hold of you? So they go to goodcroncontractorslist.com, right?
SPEAKER_00:It's the yeah, thegoodcontractorslist.com. Okay. Now, if you're a homeowner and you know uh a good contractor that you think should be backed by this guarantee and that could help build that community that I'm talking about, um go to the goodcontractorslist.com and look under refer a contractor. And if you refer a contractor to us that becomes part of our community, then uh we will give a$125 uh bonus finders fee to the people who are referring the contractors that are gonna be good. Um, so yeah, this is a very this is very symbiotic. I I I want it to be win-win for everyone. Homeowners need to know that they can find contractors they can trust. So I need homeowners to help us build these communities. I need contractors who know that they will do the right thing every time. That's not gonna cost us money, you know, and time trying to fix stuff all the time. And uh the more that we f we work together to build those communities, the better it'll be. And so go to if you go to thegoodcontractorslist.com, become a good contractor for contractors, and refer a contractor for homeowners.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, I I thought of a story a pastor of mine told me years ago. Uh, it seems to me to apply to this situation that Alexander the Great, years and years and years ago, or of course, uh a thief was brought in before him in his in his throne room, and uh threw him down on the ground in front of him. And Alexander looked down at the man and said, I understand that you're a thief. And the guy kind of quivering in front of him, yes, yes, your majesty, I am. And I understand that your name is Alexander. Yes, my lord, it is. Then either change your ways or change your name. So, you know, that's kind of what's going on here, right? Good contractors, you want to be a good contractor, be a good contractor. You know, and if you don't, then stay away. We we don't, you know, we will You'll be found out quickly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's more of us than there are of you, okay? So let's get it straight right now. Folks, my guest today has been John Stewart Hill. John is the founder and chief ambassador for the good con the good contractor list. Goodness gracious, you think I could remember that better by now, John. But the good contractors list, which if you are in build in the point of where you and your wife or husband or whatever are getting ready to do some work on your home or you're gonna build a new home or whatever you're gonna do that would be homeowner related, you want to check out the good contractors list and see what kinds of contacts might be out there, right? Anything else I could show could should share, John, to make sure they get out there and get that thing done? Anything?
SPEAKER_00:No, you know, I I think we said it all. Uh, just need everyone's help, but I I really consider this more of a movement than a business. Yeah. So it in a movement, it takes a lot of people doing the right thing, pulling the right people in uh for us to be able to do this right. And I think that we're gonna raise the standard. I really do. I think that when when we become a household name across the nation and the people on the list are trusted, then it's just gonna raise the bar for all the other contractors to say, how do I become a business that can be on this list?
SPEAKER_02:There you go. Field of dreams, build it and they will come, right? Yes, here we go, folks. Thanks for listening this week to uh frame of reference profiles and leadership. My guest has been John Seward Hill. Uh, John, pleasure meeting you, pleasure talking with you, and I look forward to the next time we get to do that again. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Same here. Thank you so much. Take care. Take care.
