The Quantum Power Of Belief

As a sales professional, your numbers can look like a skill gap when the real problem is the story running in your head. I’m joined by Geoffrey Reid, whose career arc is almost unfair: public policy analyst, negotiation and conflict resolution educator, then a leap into sales with zero experience, followed by standout results and leadership at scale. That background sets up a candid talk about what actually drives performance when two people follow the same process and still get different outcomes. 

We dig into Geoffrey’s TEDx ideas on the quantum power of belief, not as a magical shortcut, but as a framework for understanding how attention, emotion, and expectation shape behavior. We talk about the placebo effect, the cost of worry and scarcity thinking, and the practical difference between belief that inspires action and belief that becomes fantasy.  Geoffrey breaks it down into principles you can practice: focus on possibilities, build presence, and take inspired action so your goals stop living only in the future. 

From there, we go straight at a business-world contradiction: companies run on revenue, yet many business schools barely teach selling.  Geoffrey explains why that gap persists and what he tries to fix in his national bestselling book, The Revenue Catalyst. We also explore his newer work on identity architecture and the “fifth pillar,” where sustainable change comes from who you become, not what you’re told to do. We even touch cultural polarization and how to reclaim your energy by focusing on what you can control and build. 

If you lead a team, carry a quota, or feel stuck in a self-defeating loop, press play and take notes. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with someone who needs a mindset reset, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Thanks for listening.  Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about.  In these times of intense polarization we all need  to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Pronounce your name, it's it's Raul. Rowl like Growl. So okay so you did really well for a first time out. So and do you say Jeffrey or Jeffrey? Jeffrey. Jeffrey. Okay. So Jeffrey Reed, right? Nothing fancy there. Right. Yeah. And I have Rowell Abrech. So on both counts, I get to be difficult. I I what can I say? So all right. Well, here we go. Well, welcome everyone to another edition of Frame of Reference Profiles and Leadership. And today, um, if you tuned in, if you have downloaded uh today's podcast, all I can say is bravo, bravo, because you are in for a treat, as I know I am in for a treat. Um, I, you know, had a lot of wonderful guests over the years. And uh, you know, uh it's it's always fascinating to me, the people that, you know, God has brought into my life that I get to talk with, that I probably would never have gotten to talk to if it weren't for this podcast. So, and today's guest is no different than many of those people. Um, today I'm talking with Mr. Jeffrey Reed, and Jeffrey has one of the most phenomenal career trajectories that I think I've seen. Uh, he refused to be defined by a single discipline. He started as a Canadian public policy analyst. He added graduate degrees, pursued doctoral studies, taught negotiation and conflict resolution at Concordia University's School of Graduate Studies, and then in 2000 walked into a junior sales position knowing nothing about sales. And by the end of the first year, he generated more new personal sales revenue than any other employee in North America. Huh. So rose through the management, became a CEO, yada, yada, yada. I mean, it Jeffrey, it really does read as something like, oh yeah, too. And I suppose he invented a cure for cancer, too, didn't he? Welcome, Jeffrey. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Raul. It's a pleasure to be here. So, did I miss anything key, like, you know, marriages and children and favorite dogs or anything of that nature?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

So like look, uh, all all of all of the above, but uh, you know, for today's purposes, I I think uh we could probably uh uh keep it uh to uh our our our our northern climates. You could probably see a little bit of snow behind me at the moment. I know you're uh you probably have snow where you are uh as well. So uh most of our melted away. So longer.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, we're we're a little luckier than you. Yeah, we we had about uh I don't know, 13, 14 inches. That melted away, then we got another five or six inches. That now has melted away, and we're supposed to get a cold spike again this evening. So uh, you know, it my mother used to say, if you don't like the weather in Wisconsin, wait a minute. So, and how true she was. So, but well, you're up in Montreal, so you're a bit further up the latitude scale than we are, so that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah, probably I'm not sure, but probably uh a Chicago climate, I would say that uh I've noticed over the years. Yeah, less wind, but uh probably a similar type of climate here. Okay. Um, I know is we appreciate the summers that much more because uh of what we uh go through the rest of the year. So it's uh isn't that the trick? It's a it's a it's a period of gratitude.

Favorite Things And Health Reset

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I I remember the a few weeks when was that back at the uh beginning of January, end of January, where we had the another one of our polar vortexes, you know, where when it gets down to 19 below in the daytime and the high is you know negative 22 at night kind of thing. And uh I I always think to myself when that happens, like, yeah, you know, people in California, they could never handle this, but we can do it kind of thing. So uh, you know, you take some sense of you know security in that, I guess. Anyways, well, you know as well as anyone that I like to start out with a little thing called my favorite things. Um, if I had the money, I would pay Julie Andrews to sing it for us and have our own frame of reference version. Um, but I don't, so we don't, but we can imagine that in the background as we move into this. So I'm gonna just ask some things. This is a very much a uh abstract, whatever comes into your mind, uh Rorschachtian style test. There are no wrong answers. Uh, there are only ways to get yourself in trouble. So if you say the wrong thing and the wrong person's listening, whatever. So this is where my filters, my filter will prove itself. We'll see. We'll see. Or not. Of course, nowadays it doesn't seem that filters matter anymore. You know, you can just say whatever you want and everyone makes a big deal out of it, and then it's gone. Um, okay, how about a favorite baked good? Do you have any favorite baked good?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh boy, um, I sure do. And I uh I have great memories of all the break dude, uh of all the the the the wonderful cookies, and you know, my Aunt Billy used to make molasses cookies and all sorts of really yummy treats. Uh interestingly enough, I I recently uh decided that I was gonna uh remove sugar for my life. Um and so I I've eliminated carbs, bread, pasta, and rice. Uh uh melting actually when it comes to weight, which is an interesting phenomenon when you remove those things. So I have very good memories. Uh, they'll never be taken away from me. I still remember what they taste like, but uh, if I if I never have another baked good again, um I'm sure I will, but uh I I I have great memories. So uh uh thanks for prompting uh prompting those uh those taste in my in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Well then see let's see what we replace it with. Do you have a favorite fruit now? Is that is that something that replaced some of those?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Um yeah, like look, there's a lot of sugar in fruits uh that I've kind of noted through my my research, but I still have raspberries, I uh you know, I still have uh uh pears and plums, things like that. But there are some fruits that I'm kind of avoiding, not for any other reason that uh I've just decided that I'm gonna see how I feel going for six months without uh sugar. And uh I I didn't realize before doing this, even eliminating a lot of the fruits, how good I feel, having made that decision all the time. I didn't realize how how kind of bad I felt before uh but but you know, just thinking that was the norm. So um, so yeah, definitely some uh you know, little bits and pieces, but uh still lots of uh lots of things to avoid, unfortunately. How about uh do you have a favorite animal? Um I like cats and dogs. I've had both. Um and they both uh have uh uh uh you know taught me a lot about the world uh in their own ways, you know, whether it be the you know the eagerness and the enthusiasm of a dog or the aloofness of a cat and and how how to apply that in in the world to uh to function better. You know, there's lots and lots of things the animals uh as well as unconditional love, which is right arguably what any of us are looking for.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Right. I I've uh often thought it seems to me that dogs function as if we're the only person in the world, and cats function as if they're the only person in the world. You know, it's just a it's an interesting phenomenon. Yeah, I think you know, a lot of people don't like cats too, and I've speculated before. I think it's it might be because cats just don't really care if you care about them or not. So whereas, you know, dogs are always looking for our approval, and you know, please don't be mad at me, master, you know, whatever. So how about do you have a favorite movie?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Um I I do actually. Um, I love Interstellar with Batty McConaughey.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Really? Okay. That's been getting a lot of airtime lately. It's as if it I don't know if it showed up on Netflix or somewhere, but all of a sudden there were a lot of people talking about, you know, that's a an important film. You'd go back and watch it again. I remember seeing when it first came out and being you know, it's a little bit of one of those films where you're like, what the hell just happened? kind of thing. Um, especially after it goes through the black hole. You know, it's just kind of okay, I what? And so, but uh yeah, I mean McConaughey's films are kind of that way too. He's always picking something at that makes you think, uh, which is totally appreciated by me at least. Um, what how about a favorite book then?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Oh, I could list a bibliography of um of what I have enjoyed, what's gotten me to this point, uh, and uh you know, having uh you know traveled the world and and looked at uh all the philosophies and uh and and schools of thought and uh gone through all sorts of self-help and and different things. I I could you know I could list so many of them, but one that I've been reading recently is um uh is one uh called Humankind. And it's uh it's by uh a Dutch author. I'm just looking at uh to turn mine, Rudger Brudman. Uh it's over on my bookshelf over there. And uh it's just fascinating from the perspective of it's kind of the opposite of Lord of the Flies and the whole idea that we're all um selfish and and and fearful that our purest form. It's kind of the opposite. It really, you know, using world events over uh the the the the 20th century really showing that uh you know it arguably we're a cooperative species that has thrived because we care about one another and we'll take care of one another. And it really does, um, I guess what the reason I would uh I would single it out is it really does um in a unique way counter so many other uh books that argue the the opposite. And uh it it it's a happier way for me to to look at the world when I consider things that way.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

It was interesting too. It makes me think of the research that's been done about part of why dogs have been so successful, is in that they learned to uh trust us to have a reciprocal relationship with human beings that was beneficial to both of us. Um and they uh one of the things that they pointed out in it was you can do uh, they have done experiments where the dog has two cups in front of them, and they the person puts a treat underneath one of them and then moves it around like a three card monty kind of thing. And then at the end of it, the dog, the person will point to the one that's got the treat under it, and the dog will immediately go to that. So, whereas a monkey won't do that, a monkey doesn't get that we're there to help them and that there's this reciprocity going on. And they they're positing that it it is uh has to do with the dog just learning that others can help, and then it uh in turn wants to help us as well. So finding the pigeon that we just shot or whatever it might be, right? So which is fascinating. And we need we need more of that, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

We need to help each other. Reciprocity makes the world go around, and uh, and and if if if dogs are smart enough to understand that, whereas other species may not be, you know, what a what a what a you know unique characteristic of of that uh you know of that species.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Heck, we have lots of politicians right now that don't understand that, so go figure. So how about if you could be anyone, Jeffrey, if there anyone in history or anybody in the world, who would you be and why?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Oh look, I would uh I would want to be um a a benevolent uh a benevolent monarch or or uh or an altruistic uh uh uh spiritual leader. Um and I could uh I could get more specific, but I just think that uh that theme would be um sort of in many ways what I aspire to be on this earth anyhow, and even though I'm very far away from that, uh, you know, if even even if that were the the the ultimate goal, at least uh uh some of my decisions might take me in that direction to uh to a small extent here or there.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah. I've often thought that a benevolent dictator would make a lot of sense. So um, you know, just somebody that cuts through all the nonsense and just says okay, this is the way it's gonna be. This is for your best. And you know, if you'll if you don't see that now, you'll see it soon. Um, but I really am looking out for your best good. How about we'll we'll wrap up with this. Do you have a favorite memory from childhood? Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Um look, I uh I do. It was uh just growing up with my family at our family cottage, uh, you know, spending my my summers uh you know with with great blessings, uh you know, being able to fish and windsurf and and canoe and and and and really just uh becoming uh one with uh with nature and uh one with with my family. It was just uh that to me that's probably the warmest um memories that I that I have um generally speaking.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Do you find yourself going back to that place? You know, that you um you know I I I guess in my life I found stressful times, it helps to remember that history, to remember those places. Do you find that that's the case with you too?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, 100%. It really is a coping mechanism. And when you know nothing mattered, there were no worries in the world, it's you know, it's uh, you know, what what uh what am I gonna, you know, when am I gonna be back for lunch? And when am I gonna get off my my windsurfer and uh you know uh you know how how am I gonna get home with the wind blowing the wrong way? You know, like I'll figure that out. But yeah, yeah, apart from that, but but life is so peaceful, and it was it was in the moment, and it was in the now. And you know, if I were to, you know, look at a you know, an ekartali or or really focusing on the on the power of the moment and uh you know and the past uh and and the future are are really you know not uh not where the power lies. So so yeah, that's I'm living in the moment was it it it it really brings me back to that particular best practice, which I still hold in on today.

Quantum Power Of Belief

SPEAKER_01 13:58

It often seems to me that youth is wasted on all the wrong people. So so if only we could know now or then what we know now, right? So 100%. Well, uh there's so much to talk about. And I mean we have what? Well, we we hopefully we have about a half hour, if that's right, because we got about 15 minutes late start start. So um I let's get into it. I I uh I was actually drawn to your TEDx talk that you did uh on the quantum power of belief, which right away I saw that title about the quantum power of belief. Okay, Shreddinger's cat. What are we talking about here? You know, Heisenberg principle? What's going on? Um tell us a little bit about that. You you were able to fuse what neuroscience, psychology, and quantum physics um together to to uh come up with isn't that where the belief engineering came from? Is that correct? Correct.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, yeah. So that it really lays the tracks down on that. Because I guess look, uh in my and you mentioned before sort of the the long journey I had learning a whole new discipline in sales, it gave me an opportunity to observe certain patterns in myself uh and uh within the people that I uh was hiring and developing and training uh over the years. And uh there were some things that just didn't really line up. I couldn't, you know, you know, sales is kind of one of those those uh odd disciplines where we have to have this this um bizarre relationship with the future. And and uh and that's where it it becomes problematic for some people because it's uh uh you know you know looking into the future and forecasting what you're going to to generate in terms of results uh is a pretty tall order for some people given the methodologies that people have available to them. Sure. And that um got me trying to understand my own sales success, but also the sales success of hundreds and eventually thousands of people that I would get to measure and look at data and KPIs, and some of whom I would hire and train directly and develop, and others would be developed by other people that I had hired and and developed, uh, but still had a a a view. And and and and I noticed the pattern that you know two people could sound exactly the same, be sitting beside each other, uh, and and fundamentally following all the same habits, and one person would be selling this much, and one person would be selling that much. Uh and that really got me wondering what what you know there's something here that I can't measure, and and and what are those what what is what are those what are those intangibles? And um, you know, and then starting to understand other things over the years that have uh perturbed me, you know, you know, even you know, at one point when I when I was diagnosed with uh you know with my eyesight, you know, I was doing doctoral studies and my eyesight dropped a little bit. And I remember my my ophthalmologist telling me, you know, after I walked out with some glasses, you know, your eye, you just remember your eyes will never get better, they'll only get worse. And I was like, that sounds kind of weird. You know, every six months I, you know, my every cell in my body is different, and I cut my skin and it heals, and and you know, either we're you know, either we're we're falling apart, you know, and this was in my early 20s, or um you know, or we have the ability to heal. And so it just didn't jive with some of the other things that I was looking at and reading, and uh and that got me looking into things like the placebo effect and uh and and and how can uh you know a sample group of patients take a sugar pill, and how can that sugar pill have a physiological impact on their healing, just like someone taking um uh you know, uh you know, chemicals uh and it um that you know that are fused together if we targeted someone. Yeah. So all of that got me thinking, um, you know, by the way, two years later, after I ate a lot of carrots and and maybe uh did a lot of thinking, uh, I went back and and and my eyes were 2020 again, and I I actually still don't wear glasses. So I you know I don't know if that's just a phenomenon, but but to me, there was an awful lot of curiosity I had around the whole discipline of belief, and and that took me down the rabbit hole of really trying to understand that from many perspectives, whether it be from a self-health perspective, a spiritualist perspective, or or a scientific perspective. And the quantum power of belief was my best way of explaining uh this phenomenon using only scientific facts that are um very well established to uh you know to know that uh you know some someone you know wouldn't uh wouldn't label it uh pseudoscience and wouldn't and wouldn't call it uh uh false hope. Um I I I knew that there was enough there within the discipline of quantum physics and what had been discovered, neuroscience and and um and and and the surrounding disciplines to to be able to make a point that I I feel you know has been well received and I think has has has generated a lot of thinking around people's ability to take responsibility for themselves and and to realize that you know there are really two ways of approaching the world. A goal setting would fit into this. There's where we are and where we want to be, and and you know, luck and hardship are either bestowed randomly or there's a relationship between where we are, where we want to be, and what occupies our minds and the emotions, how we're charged emotionally, whether that bridges the gap between where we want to be and and and or or repels that gap. And all of these principles are are all interrelated, they can be explained through through quantum physics, but they relate back directly to performance and sales, and exactly what I would have to tell people at review times when they would tell me that they wanted to make a certain amount of money to feed their families and they're doing everything right, they're following the processes and they can't identify anything. And and then I would start working on their minds, and I would I would get them focusing on what they wanted as opposed to what they didn't want, and I would try to help eliminate worry uh and and that whole emotion around that. And so, look, it's been quite a robust journey that led to the to the TED Talk, and it was just one way of expressing a lot of, you know, you know, uh a several decade journey of uh of trying to understand what what's making performance tick.

When Belief Becomes Action

SPEAKER_01 20:25

I saw you have a a phrase that I ran across that the first sale that matters is selling yourself on your future. And that, well, you know, that's that's sort of a quantum theory right there, isn't it? Uh when you when you really kind of start breaking it apart. And you know, that there's so there is power in the idea of what where do I see myself going to? You know, you think of the number of lives that are destroyed by people thinking they could never be any better. You know, they're never going to get out of what. Well, of course you're never going to get out of that when you're saying to yourself, you're never going to get out of that. And you know, there is there's that weird point though, where when does belief become foolish belief versus realistic attainable belief? Um, any insight on that? I mean, because it it does seem like some people believe they're gonna be the greatest star in the world and they're gonna be having a singing career, and they can't sing worth a darn, you know. And you're you're like, what are you gonna do? Sing to the you know, the toad's greatest hit? I mean, I don't get it. Where is that coming from? You know, so there has to be sort of a fundamental or some kind of a base level limit to belief can do this, but you know, come on, get serious about you know things right here.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So yeah, like look, uh of course, uh that we're all sort of uh, you know, you know, it's really the blend of the of the of the physical and and and that which occupies our minds that uh is able to chart that path. But and and I tried to to deal with that in the tental by talking about three fundamental principles that that can help create the that. Effect and one is to it's just a simple mindset trick. Um, you know, focus on uh possibilities, not limitations. You know, we can be aware of the limitations and the obstacles, and that can be the contrast, but but focus on the possibilities. Choosing um choosing the the best possible outcome in any situation is going to serve people way better when it comes to using the uh the you know the the fundamentals of quantum physics to be able to create better outcomes. Um, you know, so that's an important part. And and the second part is is is is presence. It's it's kind of going back to that that that moment that I had uh on the windsurfer with my family at the cottage on the lake, you know, being in the now, what Eckhart Tolling would talk about, be fully present, you know, be able to to observe the the small details that are happening in the moment and and and avoid what people do a lot of the time, which is which is grieve the past or worry about the future. Yeah, you know, the there's a you know, be being able to focus on the present is another way of unlocking that uh that that power. And and then the third is taking inspired action. You know, it's you know, we can and that's where maybe your point really comes in. We can we can believe all we want, but uh but that belief should trigger inspiration that's gonna get people taking actions that are gonna bring them closer to their ability to to achieve those those goals with those things that they believe believe in. You know, whether it's uh you know a voice coach or like, you know, who knows if someone wants to be that singer, you know, look, maybe you're not gonna play in the NBA if you're if you're five feet tall, but um, you know, but but within the realm of uh of of of re of of what people can can come up with as being something that that would really make their life fulfilling, um, people can definitely shape outcomes through applying a few simple principles.

Why Business Schools Ignore Sales

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Uh you know, and one of the principles that you talk about is is selling in general, right? Um that that whole concept of which until I saw you uh your comment about it, I thought, this is so ridiculous that in business schools, the you know, we spend very little time in business school teaching people about selling. Um and I I've worked at companies where if there weren't salespeople, there would be no company. You know, it's just there's a lot of other overhead and a lot of other things that are going into the company, but the sales guys are the ones that really bring the butter home, right? And and uh and and yet those sales guys too didn't learn sales from a book or from you know going to a class or whatnot. They learned it through being a certain type of person uh, you know, that was inquisitive, that would ask questions of people so that in order to make the sale, they found out what was the best thing for that person that would meet the needs that they had. Um, so uh why do you think that is? Why why do we have business schools that want to teach, you know, all of these, you know, wonderful concepts that are very many of them are true, administrative skills and you know, profit and sales and profit and margin, and blah blah blah la. But at the bottom of the day, if you can't sell, it's kind of like, well, you can't breathe. I'm sorry, you were not going to be alive, you know, it's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

So yeah. Look, that question is uh really uh what led me to running my book, The Revenue Catalyst, Mastering the Re the Art of Sales, because I I could not figure out as I was hiring uh salespeople over the years. Um you know, eventually I started asking business students how many sales courses have you taken? And some would say none, some would say one. You know, I I realize that business schools are are are divided into four disciplines, uh you know, finance, marketing, accounting, and human resources. And even though there is some sales in marketing, it really is the passive side. It isn't the actual uh red, you know, you know, it applies maybe more in in some environments like a B2C or but it but it isn't the negotiation type sales that is so uh that you know that a lot of companies uh are have are resting their entire future on. Um so um that led me to having an opportunity at one point the the uh I had the opportunity to be the president of the university that I used to teach at, who came to see me when I was uh in London uh as as CEO for uh for for Marcus Evans, which I worked at for 25 years, and I asked him the question. He said, Look, how are we doing? Are we are we um are we grooming our students in a way that really can help your business? And I said, Yeah, look, I've hired some good people from your university, but why so little sales education? And he and he laughed, and his response was was something I wrote about in the book. He said, you know, a lot of professors are just aren't comfortable teaching things that they don't know enough about. And look, it it rang very deeply with me because I realized that you know academia is a trajectory, you know, whereas sales is something you have to learn. So unless someone is gonna short circuit their academic career to go out and learn it and bring it back, there are some barriers to that. And um so that kind of is one of the reasons I wrote the book because I wanted to lay out a methodology that was state of the art that people could use that can replace that that you know four years of education. You know, in business school right now in the United States, there are four million students in business school spending a lot of money not learning anything about sales. And uh, and that's ironic. So uh so the market has kind of has kind of shifted where there are a lot of courses, but there's there's no standard. And like you said, uh people will read one methodology and it might apply to some things, but there's a lot of money being left on the table. So in in the book, I've tried to tackle it from a you know from a process perspective, and that kind of led me down the whole belief trail that led to the to the pod uh to the TED talk. And uh from the TED talk, that's led me to developing a whole new methodology, which I call the fifth pillar, which is the the underlying layer that would apply to just about every sales organization. It doesn't matter how they sell. You know, sales is about creating a level of trust. It's about guiding people in a way that they're not feeling the urgency or the pressure. And there's a whole way of being able to be through discovering one's identity, through establishing a high performance state, and using that to snap into high performance and really be able to sell and lead at a high level on any given moment. And to me, it's a real and it it it it's been evolving. I I'm so excited about uh you know where it's taking me because I'm really discovering and you know that that it was that that when I look back at my 25 years of of developing salespeople and scaling it and and spreading it all over across the world in a in a company with you know thousands of people and 50 offices. Uh yeah, I it it uh I I I I couldn't quite pinpoint what it was for a long time, but I think I've kind of figured it out finally. So um there's just there's a lot of layers to the sungy, but that would be the the the the short to medium uh length answer to your question.

Identity Architecture And Rewriting Your Story

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Well, it I the other thing I kept finding when as I was doing research for our talk, um, how many times I could identify with things you were talking about because I come from a theater background. Um, you know, acting and directing. And um, you know, my my Master of Fine Arts degree was in directing, but I was doing an awful lot of acting too, so much so that the MFA actors started getting pissed that I was getting roles that they wanted, you know. But um, you know, you talked about one of the things already being present, you know, and and one of the things that an actor has to learn is to be present, because if you're not present, it's usually just a disaster waiting to happen. Um, you know, something's gonna happen on stage, and because you're not present, you're gonna try to treat it like it didn't happen. Well, everybody in the audience knows it happened and they're waiting to see how you're gonna deal with what happened, but you just keep going because you're trying to pretend it didn't happen. Well, you know, that talk about taking things out of a show or, you know, taking people out of the show. But another one that really hit me strongly is when you talked about um everyone is running a story that makes sense to them. And it keyed into something that then I read, I think is almost verbatim what you've said. We taught we were taught early on in in uh acting school as well that no one sees themselves as a protagonist. No one, you know, no matter how, you know, and I I played some pretty awful characters in my life. So I had to find places that I could go to that would understand that I could relate to and say, yeah, this is a totally legitimate choice that this person made. So yeah, they seem awful, but you know, given what happened to them, that was a totally logical, rational, reasonable decision to have made and to to determine who they are now. So what it is there, what am I going with all this whole? Is there is there a evidence that you've seen that person that people need to look at the story that they're writing, that story that they're living, and say, no, you can write a different story. Don't that story, you're you're you're doing a great job of telling that story, but there's another one that you can start telling yourself here. How do you get them to make that break from you know being essentially in a self-destructive, you know, uh vortex to saying, no, I I I can get out of this, I want to get out of this, I can start telling myself a different story. You know, we talk power of positive thinking. Yeah, but it it seems to me it's something more than just power of positive thinking.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, look, a couple of things on that, because uh you you were talking an awful lot about uh acting, you know, um, and I and there's this observation that I have about people who are um you know good salespeople, they you know, in in many ways, they're they're not just there going, you know, pretending to be something. They become what it is that they're who they are, they become a new person. It kind of like character acting. So what Daniel Day Lewis, for example, would would take a year to get into a role and would take a year to get out of a role, and it would take a huge toll because he would become the character that uh he um uh Lincoln you know when was portraying, and and and because of that, he was uh more convincing and and a better way better actor, whereas someone going through the surface and just sort of pretending on the surface isn't gonna have that type of impact. And I think the same thing applies for people who are um reinventing themselves. Um, you know, in in the the fifth pillar uh course that I that I've just uh filmed and uh and put online, uh I'm really getting into the the uh the weaknesses in typical performance management where people are trying to um they're spending money on training, they're teaching processes, they're trying to motivate, they're they're they're trying to impose discipline. And and and these are just things that are temporary, and and and they're not gonna, you know, that you're not going to get someone to change the trajectory that they, you know, from a destructive place to a to a positive place uh on that basis. Um it really starts with identity. And and unless you're willing, you know, identity architecture is really the the the type the level of change that people have to um uh buy into if they're gonna find something that's consistent or sustainable. And there's a way to uh to do that. But part of that, you know, you know, it's more than just you know uh you know, a sales leader uh, you know, calling in their employees on on the first day of the year and saying, write down your goals and uh and and and and and going at it. You know, what I found um is that there are different things that are gonna cause people to look people we we are all taught to be um and look, we're influenced from the time that we're we're young in school and by our parents and and by our institutions and by the doctors and by the TV, and people are taught to be fearful and scarce, you know, and that is one of the underlying messages that people are bombarded with continuously in our society. And if someone has, you know, parents that are kind of tweaked the other way or or might encourage a different level of thinking, uh, or teachers or influences in their life, great, that can take root at a younger level. But if it doesn't, people often come into the world uh or into their adult years, you know, feeling a little, you know, can feel a little cynical or a little negative, or you know, they don't even realize that they are. They just think that's just the way we are, you know, that we have to fear, you know, fear money, you know, and you know, and and and worry about uh paying our bills and and and worry about you know love and money. Those are the two things that are that are scarce in this world that cause people so many problems. So what I've kind of had to do is reconcile that in a few different ways. Um and I did this a lot when I figured out how to interview people uh to become um, you know, to join my my team. And um, and so I would do psychological interviews to really understand how people's mind works, people's tendency. All I was looking for were people who typically succeed at things that they set out to do, which is a pattern, uh, who are fundamentally positive. And and and will um, you know, someone who would say to me, they're no, you know, they're no bad days, just different types of good days, that would be a good thing. Because I I know that they're sifting through the possibilities until they can find an upside. And and and you know, so I would even get into interviews and I would ask people, you know, would your friends describe you as a positive person? And uh, and I never really met people who would who would say that they're negative, but I met a few realists. But most people's perception of themselves is positive, whether they are or they aren't. And and and I and I can dig into that. And if I found someone that would that would naturally gravitate because of all those that conditioning to the glasses half empty as opposed to the glasses half full, um, the pragmatic me probably had to avoid that person because I knew that they were gonna hurt me more than they were helping me with respect to what I was trying to build and the culture that I had already created that was that was high performance. And um, and then I realized that uh that's not the be all or end all. There are people that that can change. And and sometimes I would there would be someone who's just been exposed to things that were not, you know, not you know, that were negative and pessimistic. But once they saw how good they felt when they were in a better environment, they would that would become their new norm. So there was that. And sometimes people would hit rock bottom or have an epiphany. That would be another way for someone to maybe snap back and change that trajectory. Um, but it's um it's a complicated thing, and it's um it's it's not a matter of black or white. There's a lot of layers to to what makes that um temporary, what makes that um the usual, and what makes that permanent.

Belief Engineering In A Polarized Culture

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Well, you think of like your journey with weight loss, right? And and with just becoming healthier, you know, it takes a step and then the progressive just staying with the step, staying with the plan, continuing on. So I mean maybe this is a good place to kind of try to bring it all around. Um so we're we're living right now, especially in the United States, it seems, but we're living in um a time when people are locked in. There, you know, our two camps here in the United States, I would say, that are pretty formidably opposed to one another, and their beliefs are just unshakable. You know, yeah, what you know, whichever side you're on, they are absolutely committed to that. Do you think belief engineering can work on that cultural level beyond just the individual level? You know, and and if so, how do you think that can be I guess scaled upwards, right? So that it could make a difference. Because certainly the the path that the the world to some extent, but the the United States for sure, the path that they're on right now, it's unsustainable. Um, and and I I don't like the way that it looks right now. You know, I want to believe that, you know, no, we are so close to having a world in which we can just finally start solving all of these problems that have been around for thousands of years. We really are almost there. Come on, people, come on, get with the program.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah. Look, I think that uh it is a challenging world, and I think that uh throughout history, uh there's always been challenging things, um, probably since abelian time. And uh I'm not saying that these things are easy to ignore, but um there are things that um will take all of our energy, and there are things that if we pay attention to them and take on causes that are are just never gonna resolve themselves, or um that that is where people often get brought in and instead of focusing on their own.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Okay, one, two, three, ten, okay, we're going again. What and you were in the midst of talking about people um being stuck in the the uh these causes that really are kind of beyond anything that people can really do, I think was the where the thought was going.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah, like look, there's so many things out there that are upsetting, and and I and and they're they're upsetting things. And uh if I focus on those, I'm gonna be upset. And uh I know that an awful lot of the energy that I have is gonna go to wreck trying to reconcile the injustice and and uh and and the this being unfair and my being on this side or on that side. But um, you know, when it comes down to um a lot of it comes down to individuals and individuals being empowered to make a difference when they assemble collectively. I think that if more people could focus and not not give their energy to things that they can't control, but put the focus on where they're gonna make a difference with respect to their own goals uh and performance and their own identity, um, there's an awful lot of power in that and um and it's contagious. And there are um, you know, there are there are people that underachieve everywhere because because those upsetting things are taking all their energy in a continuous way. And there are people that acknowledge them and are aware that those are are there, um, but they control what they can control and uh and approach it more from you know uh world peace through inner peace kind of uh uh approach. So look, I there are no easy answers to these things, but I think you know, going back to what I was saying at the beginning, since the beginning of time, there there have been people that have bought into these causes and have been disempowered and and uh and and and and that's been their life uh because of the energy that they have left over isn't enough for them to accomplish their goals. And there are people that in the midst of turmoil have been able to achieve great picks. And I think all we can do is what we can do as individuals and um and by people with common, you know, cooperators find one another, and cooperators have a lot of power when they're when they're together, you know, whereas the negators will find one another too, uh, and uh, you know, and and almost cancel one another out. So I I'm I'm really, you know, you know, again, it's a it's a tough question, but the answer I think does really lie in people's ability to to be the best versions of themselves and to really not not get sucked into other people's problem uh causes, even if they're empathetic to them.

The Revenue Catalyst And Real Salesmanship

SPEAKER_01 41:56

I I uh keep thinking about it, uh, and I'm paraphrasing this, but Buck Buckminster Fuller years ago said um basically stop trying to fight the status quo, fight the way things are. Instead, build something that is so so much better that it makes the other thing obsolete. So I thought, you know, that's that's really a wonderful way to think about it. Don't don't lose any energy, any thought, any time thinking about that thing that is obviously going nowhere, has never gone anywhere, is gonna continue to not go anywhere. Don't even waste time thinking about it. Think about building the thing that you want to build that is gonna be so much better and you know it's gonna be better. Make it better, and you'll just make it obsolete. People will see immediately that, oh, why would I do that when I can do this? So, right? Let's build that world. So, folks, my I've been interviewing Jeffrey, Jeffrey Reed, who is the author. I forgot to mention this, Jeffrey. I'm sorry. Yeah, the national bestseller, uh, the revenue catalyst, mastering the art of sales, which you've gone way beyond just the art of sales now in terms of how this is affecting things, especially when we start getting into quantum physics. That's a little bit beyond just sales, I think. But um, Jeffrey, anything you want to say about the book that we we didn't touch on?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Like, look, um there are a few different things that I could talk about the book because I think sales is a very misunderstood discipline because of the lack of education. And um uh and I guess what I would highlight is uh is that um uh you know we are selling from the time that we are children, you know, and we're trying to get our parents to buy us stuff and and and then we're trying to get our friends to do things. And uh, you know, so it's uh there is a natural way that we learn that. And and in many ways, I would describe that as persuasion. Let's go here, let's go there, let's do this, let's do that. Come on, let's do it, like pushing, you know. And and what I've realized and what I can kind of teach in the book is that, you know, that is a style of selling, but it's I would call it almost the most primitive. way of of getting people to do things because it creates resistance and people often will will notice why will you know why would I do that? Whereas you know I I can you know I can ask you to do something, hey, you know, let let's go here. You know, or I could say, you wouldn't want to go there, would you? You know, just the the natural response in your brain is going to be, well, yeah, of course I would. But so there are ways of being able to um you know as you know by making it a profession and a discipline, people want things that they can't have and people want things that are rare and scarce. And just through positioning um one's ability to lay the breadcrumbs so that people follow, that is true salesmanship. And that is perhaps the the biggest missing piece that exists for the lack of sales education. And it's only when people get into the trenches and and can almost pass that on uh from leader to leader, person to person, that that that that type of uh very high-level salesmanship kicks in um uh you know which which is just so far from what a lot of even the the the the the the best practices training does I guess what I would say is I really tried to fill that gap and and and talk about resistance sales banks and universities sell but they don't just give you the loan they don't just submit to you they're saying why should why should we you know and that is the uh arguably the invisible method of selling that that that people have at their disposal that they don't often think about as being a way more powerful way of doing it. So that would be perhaps a quick uh summary of some of the themes in the book.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

So get the book read the book I've started reading the book I admit I I'm gonna be totally honest I didn't get all the way through it but I got into it enough to know okay this is I got to get done with this book. I got to get through the whole thing. So and I I guarantee folks if you buy the book if you're still reading the book you will want to get through the whole book. So it is definitely worth the whatever I I don't even remember what I paid anymore I just said the heck with it I'm buying it. I don't care. So but thank you Jeffrey thank you so much for being with me for taking your time I'm glad we worked out our technical difficulties and and persevered through it. It's been wonderful talking with you. Absolutely I've really enjoyed the uh the the time we spent together excellent wish you a great day thank you sir take care everyone and tune in next week for who knows who we'll have next week there's wonderful people all around every corner you just have to look for them take care