Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
David Kaywood — A Call to Contentment in a Restless World
David Kaywood is a senior pastor at Eastside Community Church in Jacksonville, Florida. He is the author of A Call to Contentment: Pursuing Godly Satisfaction in a Restless World. He is the founder of gospelrelevance.com and a contributor to The Gospel Coalition. He lives in Jacksonville Beach, Florida with his wife and two children.
In our conversation, we explore the Christian call to contentment in a restless world. How can Christians experience contentment, and how can we, as Christian writers, do our work without the restless anxiety it often causes?
You're listening to episode 217 of the Pastor-Writer Podcast conversations on reading, writing and the Christian life. I'm your host, Chase Replogle. When it comes to the topic of contentment, I think Christians may think about it, talk about it, but I'm not sure if we know how to actually live content lives, particularly right now, when everything seems to be speeding up, when there seems to be so much worry and anxiety about the future. I had a chance to talk with David Kaywood about his new book, A Call to Contentment. We explored what contentment actually is and how, as believers, we can live content lives. It was a really challenging but helpful conversation, one that I think impacted me as a believer, also as a pastor, and even in the way that I think about my writing. What does it look like for a writer to also have contentment? I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did and, as always, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm joined on the podcast today by David Kaywood. He's a senior pastor at Eastside Community Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and he's the author of a book that he joins me today to discuss, A Call to Contentment Pursuing Godly Satisfaction in a Restless World. He's the founder of gospelrelevancecom and a contributor to the Gospel Coalition and he lives in Jacksonville Beach, Florida, with his wife and two children. Well, David, I got a chance to read the book in advance, a really important topic. Really grateful that you wrote the book and grateful that you could be here to talk about it on the Pastor Writer Podcast. So thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe for a little bit of context, I'd love to hear just a little bit about where you're pastoring, maybe some of the ministry work that you're doing as well, and then look forward to getting into the topic of the book.
Speaker 2:I live in Jacksonville Beach, florida. I'm pastoring Eastside Community Church. I'm a senior pastor there. I'm a senior associate pastor. I'm a senior, a senior pastor that I'm a senior associate pastor and we are on the EFCA Evangelical Free Church of America. I went to seminary at Covenant Theological Seminary in st Louis and I I'm immersed in a local church, preaching, teaching, shepherding God's people here in Florida yeah, well, that's great.
Speaker 1:I this topic contentment. When I saw the book come through, I immediately thought I'm sure that's a book I'm going to want to read, and probably a conversation as well too. Because as you frame, I think, really well in the book, framing the problem, we do not live in a day of much contentment and it's somewhat surprising, I mean, given people have never had as much as we have now, and yet, for some reason, we feel less satisfied I think most people would recognize and agree with that Less satisfied than perhaps generations before. What brought you to this problem and how is it that you understand that challenge of restlessness that we're experiencing?
Speaker 2:I saw it in my own heart. I would not say that I'm exactly further along in the journey than maybe someone listening. It's still a struggle for me to this day to fight for contentment. I'm kind of a high-strung, go-getter, high-capacity kind of personality and when you're in that lane you can get a lot done but you can experience a lot of disappointments. So, just seeing my own heart, and I started studying contentment, in particular reading the Puritans and Jeremiah Burroughs and Thomas Watson, and I just I remember just being in the basement we don't have basements in Florida, but when I lived in Missouri I would be in the basement reading about contentment and it was like this otherworldly experience when the Puritans would write about it and it was like no matter what you go through as a Christian, you can have joy in Jesus. And I was like I really want that. I want that for myself and I want others to experience it.
Speaker 2:And I also just pastoring in the local church and just hearing what people are saying and how they're responding to sermons and how they're living their lives, it just became apparent that this disease of discontentment, this hellish sin, as Thomas Boston would call it, was pretty pervasive. And when you talk about contentment. It's really you're almost like a prophetic call to talk about contentment. You're calling people back to something that rubs. That's very countercultural. So when I talked to a publisher I kind of pitched the idea and they just got really excited about it and started studying about it. I had preached some sermons at a church in a previous ministry context on Thanksgiving, around November time, and Thanksgiving and contentment are very directly related and the feedback afterwards was incredible and all these events coming together made me think that a book on contentment would serve the church well.
Speaker 1:One of the things you do in the book is you recognize that that restlessness, that need for contentment is actually a question of the heart. And I think that's an important place to start too, because, as you mentioned contentment, our struggle for contentment is usually we think of it, which it is, but it's associated with, perhaps, work ambitions, or perhaps it's with financial gain, or maybe it's a restlessness, with physical challenges or health issues that we're facing. But you really try to move that conversation away from if I had more, I'd be content. If I felt better, I'd be content. If I reached my goals, I could be content to framing contentment as a question of this restlessness of the heart. Maybe you could unpack how that issue is really seated in a person's heart.
Speaker 2:Augustine said that our hearts are restless until they rest in you. That's a famous Augustinian quote. When the Bible speaks of heart Chase of course you'll know this it's not talking about the organ in your body that pumps blood. It's a metaphor for your intellect, emotion and who you are at your core. And if you really want to change, you have to change what you worship and you have to change your heart attitude. And really it needs to be by the power of the Holy Spirit to change your heart attitude, and really it needs to be by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:And so what I was trying to do, I was trying to avoid just dealing with symptoms and I was trying to avoid dealing with shallow remedies, and I really want to get to the heart issue and that really our hearts. When we're discontent, we're not trusting in the wisdom of God, we don't think that he's really—we might affirm his control, his sovereignty in our ministry on paper, but then when things don't work out well, we question his wisdom. We might believe that God has our best interest in mind, but when our circumstances don't align with our hopes and expectations, we quickly grumble and sin. And so I just wanted to get to the core of the issue and saying that discontentment is really a heart issue and if we're really going to grow in contentment, we really need to have our hearts changed and transformed by the power of God.
Speaker 1:Part of what I think you see and you're alluding to is a lot of people trying to find contentment but not recognizing that it's a heart issue, and so you know I sort of laugh. My watch will sometimes say you need to stop and breathe, right. It's sort of the world's advice I'm trying to help me find a calm moment, right, or we have all sorts of advice pitched to us on how to find it. You in the book refer to that as a kind of counterfeit contentment, that there's a way of trying to construct contentment that doesn't work. As a pastor in your own life, where are you recognizing some of those false places or those false works of contentment, what you call counterfeit contentment?
Speaker 2:So I think I had four of them in there. One of them was the tips and tricks approach. I love reading theology. As a pastor, I read a lot of commentaries for sermon preparation, but I also I'm not the kind of pastor who's afraid to read a business book. Obviously I don't want to be too businessy, but I do read a good amount of books on productivity and time management.
Speaker 2:Habits relates to the question of the heart, which is a really good question. When I read some of the secular data and information on how to pursue contentment, it's things like journaling and have a shorter commute and watch your diet, watch your steps and all these things that might be helpful, but it's not going to be lasting change. I think. In the realm of pastoral ministry we say I'm planting a church, if I can only get a building, then I'll be happy. It's unbelievable how many church planters think if I can just get a building, then I'll be happy, or if our church can be self-sustaining, then we'll be good.
Speaker 2:A lot of pastors go into the ministry and they don't like the church government at their church. So as opposed to focusing on loving their people, they're really focused on changing the system and how decisions are made In ministry, we constantly think if I could just get this book deal. And, chase, I remember you writing about this on your blog when you signed with your publisher. I think you even had a cool runnings quote in there and you said what is a book deal going to do for you? It's not going to satisfy the deep longings of your heart. This is just an opportunity to contribute value and use your writing skills to bless the church.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of times in ministry it's not easy, and if you do experience success and fruitfulness, it's not as awesome as you think it would be. So we really need to get to the point where, if you have Jesus and that's all that you have you have more than enough for a lifetime of contentment. Before you got in ministry, you loved reading your Bible, you loved praying, you loved going to church and then now you're the guy and some of these things of just walking with God and reading your Bible and praying and doing the spiritual disciplines. The fire, the energy isn't there anymore. Part of that in my own heart is because my expectations are misplaced. I'm struggling with entitlement. I'm comparing myself to the church down the road, with 10,000 people and we don't have nearly that many people. When we stop comparing our ministries to other ministries, when we stop having misplaced expectations, when we stop thinking that once I get to this place in my ministry then I'll be happy, I think that as pastors, we can get into the position where we start learning contentment.
Speaker 1:This is probably a good place for us to pause and define contentment. What, in your mind, for somebody who is feeling stressed out and feels restless and contentment seems like some sort of it's the gold at the end of the road, right? Maybe someday, as you're describing it, all the things work out, then I'll have contentment. How do you describe what contentment is? How do you define contentment? What does it look like for a person to begin experiencing contentment in the real life that they find themselves in the middle of right now?
Speaker 2:So Jeremiah Burroughs says that contentment. He says it's a sweet, inward, quiet, gracious frame of spirit which freely submits to and delights in God's wise and fatherly disposal in every condition. That's really great but it's puritanical and a bit long and not everyone will resonate with it. I just basically said contentment is the freedom from dependence on desired circumstances. Actually I got an article with TGC coming out to talk about the book and the editor my editor there said he really liked that definition, the freedom from dependence on desired circumstances. That's not from your own doing, but it really comes from God's empowering grace and it helps you to endure everything with rejoicing. So, to say it in a plainer way, you can say that contentment is just an inward state of satisfaction, independent of your circumstances. So it's more of something that's inside of you than what happens to you. It's a sense of joy and peace and stability in the Lord, regardless of what's going on in your ministry.
Speaker 2:So it doesn't mean that you don't have dreams. You shouldn't have dreams. It doesn't mean that you have ambition. Sometimes guys who are in the ministry who have ambition get unnecessary criticism. Their selfish ambition is demonic. We know that from James. But there is a healthy ambition. It doesn't mean that you don't lament. We've got all kinds of psalms that teach us about lament. We do cry, we do lament, we do have disappointments, but in that we can still have that inward sense of peace and joy and stability in the Lord if we grow in Christian contentment.
Speaker 1:So, with that definition in place, what are some of the symptoms? Or for somebody who perhaps hasn't really thought about or tried to sense the level of contentment that exists in their heart, what are some of those symptoms that they could recognize discontentment going on in their life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the biggest one is grumbling.
Speaker 1:You're constantly grumbling. There seems to be a lot of that going around, so that might be a clue of how little contentment exists.
Speaker 2:Chase I was just staggered to study the book of Numbers. I'm sure you've read these texts over and over again. Read the account again of the Israelites going to the promised land. Read the Pentateuch. Look how God treats those who regularly grumble. Obviously we're in Christ.
Speaker 2:But if you're constantly grumbling I mean if you have kids and, yes, you can be single and be a pastor I know that God providentially prevents some of us from having kids If you have kids and they're constantly grumbling and picking at you and asking for snacks and treats and videos and acting like you've never done anything good for them, you know, as a parent, how much that can frustrate you. And when we grumble we're making a theological statement to God that he doesn't know what he's doing. And in my study of Scripture and the book of Numbers and Jude and other places, I just realized that God takes us really seriously and he wants us to submit to his sovereignty in all things. So constantly grumbling, complaining is close to it. I'd say coveting, right, you know, like envy, the 10th commandment, envy is an inordinate desire to have something that's not yours. Envy would be a big one. Unrighteous anger could be considered another one. Dwelling on the past, dwelling on the future too much, not being able to live in the moment. Our hearts are restless and if you were going to focus on one, I would just focus on the grumbling part and ask yourself do I grumble? I let some friends read this book before I put it into print and some of the feedback that I've heard was I didn't realize how much I grumbled and how much God's displeasure is on those who grumble. Again, we can lament, we can cry, we can have doubts. Read the Psalms Draw near toumble. Again, we can lament, we can cry, we can have doubts. Read the Psalms Draw near to God. Yes, we have doubts. We say the wrong thing. If we grumble once or twice here and there, you're human.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about a habitual, unrepentant spirit of constantly grumbling Brothers. Something is off and we need to see what's going on in our hearts there. Something is off and we need to see what's going on in our hearts there and we're living as if it's impossible to find joy in our ministries when it is possible, even when things are hard. So I would just encourage those who are listening to if you feel compelled to read the book, to just consider your heart and grumbling. And for myself, as an author, you want to live out what you write about and you want to be changed yourself. I walked away from this feeling like this is the number one area of my life that I want to practice for the rest of my life. I want to be so satisfied in God that I don't grumble. And when I do grumble, I want to be so aware of it that I quickly repent, confess it to God and repent and move on with my life.
Speaker 1:I couldn't help thinking. This is so much what you're describing, just the common sense everyday world I think we imagine ourselves living in. I mean, people are complaining constantly around us, right? This is a world of grumbling, it's a world of sort of endless pursuit. There's always more to be had. In that comparison that you're describing, I do wonder if, for some people, perhaps those who have not experienced Christ, but those who maybe for just a long time have been caught up in the ways of the world, I wonder if we even know what contentment is or what it feels like, do we realize contentment is possible? Because it just feels as you described it earlier. It feels so countercultural from the way that the world, the equation of the world, seems to be set up.
Speaker 2:It's elusive, it's countercultural. It's countercultural. It's something you must pursue and protect. My chapter four Money and Possessions.
Speaker 2:I kind of make the point that if you read all the texts on contentment in scripture and I think I put every single one of them in the book there's a disproportionate amount of biblical emphasis on money and possessions than any other place of our lives with contentment in the Bible. So when you live in a first world country and you're constantly on social media and you're comparing yourself to others, there are so many blessings that come with living in a prosperous age and a prosperous time. But the negative is that we have lost touch with this understanding of what. Does it even mean to be happy anymore? I mean, essentially this book is a book on how to be happy. Again I just use the word contentment and not happy. And they're false gods, they overpromise.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about money and the big home. We can absolutely pursue wealth and have money and use it wisely for the kingdom of God, but if you really want to experience contentment you really have to be countercultural in your thinking. And it's hard because we're conditioned by society to think that money, possessions and comfort are going to satisfy the deep longings of our soul. But all of those things are the gifts, not the giver. And God's message for us through scripture is hey, I'm the God here, I'm the creator here. Look to me for your sense of contentment, don't look to stuff in your circumstances.
Speaker 1:I want to talk a little bit about what it looks like to begin pursuing contentment in your life. So I think you've articulated the case well. I think people listening are probably saying, yes, I wish there was more of that in my life. I wish I was a person of deeper contentment change. But it's 100 decisions you make every week that our lives aren't really. We don't fix this problem by giving up one thing or making one decision at one point, but this really has to become a way of deciding and living in and out of every day. What does it look like for a person to say, okay, I want to begin this pursuit, respond to this call to become a person of greater contentment. How does that work begin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, chapter eight is eight rules for contentment and I kind of give some practicals in it and there's different ways all throughout the book. I would start with regular devotional Bible reading and prayer. I would not skip that. Even when our lives are busy, we don't really have a shot of being content without abiding in Christ. Abiding in Jesus. So I would start with the spiritual disciplines. Local church attendance is huge and being meaningfully involved in local church. Obviously, if you're a pastor you're doing that already.
Speaker 2:I talk about just the spirit of thankfulness and gratitude. When we talk about gratitude and thankfulness it can feel a bit cheesy and almost effeminate or it feels like a touchy-feely thing. But if you want to experience contentment and you're not thankful to God, it's going to be hard to be content. So I would just constantly practice a spirit of thankfulness to God. Even just thankful that you have a car to drive in as you listen to this podcast, thankful that you have a church to serve, thankful that you're alive, just start thanking God for all of the blessings that you're aware of, and as you thank God a little bit, it sort of tends to grow and when you do thank God you're more aware of his blessings, right. I think starting there with the spiritual disciplines and thankfulness to God is a big deal. I also talked about taking care of your body physically.
Speaker 2:Before I became a pastor, I was working in supplement sales and I certified in sports nutrition and certified in personal training and there is a direct correlation to how you take care of your body and how you feel. I don't want to get out of my lane and pretend like I'm a doctor when I'm just certified, but just remember the Sabbath. Take that day off one day a week at least. On that day off, don't check your phone, don't check your email. Really try to get good, deep REM sleep every night. Watch what you eat, exercise, move, take action doing these things and move.
Speaker 2:Your body was made to move and there's a direct correlation to the practical that intertwines with the spiritual. So I just encourage listeners to start with the spiritual disciplines. Go to gratitude and thanksgiving and move your body and take care of your body. Don't be addicted to social media. Maybe even remove the apps from your phone. Start thinking about your bedtime routine and how you feel. All that stuff matters if you really want to be content. It's not only spiritual stuff, it's also practical stuff too, and then from there, I would just say get the book and read the rest from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought the eight rules at the end were really helpful. A couple more I did want to. I wrote down to ask about uh. Rule number six is stay productive and work hard, and I think that's an it's. I appreciated this because what it can sound like we're saying when we talk about contentment is like give up right, so just stop pursuing things, stop pressing, stop right, so just stop pursuing things, stop pressing, stop at work, just accept things for how they are. I don't think that's what you're saying in the book. I know it's not, but what does it look like to stay productive and work hard, to be a person who is working hard, but to do that work out of an inner contentment? How do those two things fit together?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a paradox is something that sounds like a contradiction but is actually true. It is something that sounds like a contradiction but is actually true, and in the realm of pursuing contentment it's filled with paradoxes. So it's not what you might think originally, just like you were saying. You said that beautifully. So when I say stay productive and work hard, I mean that, like a lot of times when we're working our eight hour job, we're we're fittering with our phones, we're checking social media, we're constantly looking at email and this does all kinds of negative stuff to our brain, and that we're not really in the zone or connected, but all kinds of research. So I mentioned another book in there that talks about this that when you are just, when you have a goal and you have a dream and you're using your skills and your giftedness to pursue a goal or dream and you're not focused on the results, you're just enjoying the process, contentment comes to your heart. But we've been conditioned to believe again that contentment comes when the book sales are high, when the social media engagement is high, when the church numbers are high. It's all about the numbers, the data, results. But instead what I'm saying is don't focus on the results. Instead, just focus on your craft, focus on your work and just find enjoyment in sermon prep, find enjoyment in preaching, find enjoyment in writing and podcasting, find enjoyment in what you do and when it's time I think DA Carson said this when it's time to work, work hard, when it's time to rest rest, I mean, that's contentment.
Speaker 2:When it's time to get busy, let's get down to it, let's not be distracted all the time, but when it's time to rest, you know what that person who texted you, that emailed you. They can wait. I get an unusually high amount of texts. I don't want to make myself sound more important than when I am. I'm just in a texty culture and email and 95% of the time none of them are urgent or that need a quick reply, and yet we think that they do. So put distractions aside, work hard and find enjoyment in your craft and leave the results to God Hide.
Speaker 1:Work hard and find enjoyment in your craft and leave the results to God. I'm keenly aware of the move. I sense the same thing. I sort of chuckled when you talked about texting. It seems like email is starting to move to text, like I'm getting more texts that used to be email, so I resonate with that too and the unrealistic pressure you feel by text to respond immediately. I mean, man, it really can just absorb you and frustrate you. And trying to find contentment and how we handle communications in an appropriate way is, I think, a real challenge, particularly for pastors.
Speaker 2:I yeah, I sometimes get social anxiety where, like, if I don't check my phone for a day to practice the Sabbath and just enjoy the Lord and my family, the next day when I want to check my phone, I like have a deep breath and I'm like all right, what am I about to open? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not a good feeling.
Speaker 1:Okay, one of the other rules I wanted to ask about, the final one, rule eight consider death and eternity. One of the things this book does well is it gives you practical. We were just talking about work, but then it also gives you I mean, this is a big one to wrap up the rules on that there's some value to actually setting even that day in and day out work in this larger context of both the finality of human life but also the eternality of what we have through Christ. So what do you mean by this rule? Consider death and eternity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't have to go back and look at the exact numbers, but I think before the 1800s and someone can check me on this the life expectancy for an individual in the Western world was like in the 40s. And then here in the last 100, 200 years it's really risen up to like what, 79 for a guy and 81 for a woman, maybe 77 for a guy, 79 for a woman I probably botched the numbers a little bit, but the point is saying that like this, this whole era of living until you're 80, is like it's pretty new and it was pretty common for people to die in their 40s and lower or 50s or whatever it was. And I do think we've been disillusioned by society and I'm for anti-aging cream. I follow this doctor named Peter Attia. He talks about longevity. I like supplements. I'm all for like taking care of your body and looking good and living as long of a life as you can. In fact you can say one of the commandments is do not murder, and if you don't take care of your body, I've heard it argued that you're actually murdering yourself. So I'm for longevity.
Speaker 2:But I was reading Ben Sasse's book the Vanishing American Adult, and Ben Sasse is the president of the University of Florida at Gainesville, about an hour and a half away from me. It's a really a great book and he talked about. You know, just get comfortable with this fact that your life is short and Ben's a Christian, so he has the hope of Jesus. But I do think sometimes we don't take the notion of like. Let's get serious about storing up treasure for yourself in heaven. Let's remember that we're saved by grace but we're judged by our works and not every Christian is going to have the same amount of treasures in heaven.
Speaker 2:And what you do now with your time, see, there's an eschatological effect on contentment. It's very theological actually. It's not just practical. The notion that Jesus could come back at any moment should spur us to godly living, joy and contentment, because we know that when he comes, that we'll have him. We'll be ushered into eternity, depending on what you believe about the millennium. We know that our giving to our local church and our service of our Lord.
Speaker 2:He sees everything. He sees every time you're criticized. He sees every time someone sends an email about you that was inappropriate. He sees every time a leader made a jerk move on you. He sees everything you do and say in private and public, and we know that God's going to reward those who are faithful to Him. So when I say consider death an eternity, I'm like look, let's just say you have 80 years of an amazing life, praise God. But then what? Like? You can store up treasures for yourself in heaven. You know Jonathan Edwards talks about one of his resolutions to resolve to make himself as happy as possible as he can in the next world. So what could make you more content than to remember that God is not only sovereign in your life now, but one day all this pain will cease and you're going to be rewarded for the good that you do now. So do good, serve God, work hard and have that contentment in your heart, knowing that you're going to be rewarded from God for it one day.
Speaker 1:The book. We've been talking about A Call to Contentment, pursuing Godly Satisfaction in a Restless World with David K Wood man. Such a great conversation, a great book, such a needed topic and conversation. I did want to ask you a couple questions about writing and you've alluded even in our conversation already and it struck me reading the book as a writer. Contentment can be a particularly unique challenge for listeners who are writers many of them. You know the sort of the need for platform and self-promotion and the constant rejection you experience trying to put something whether it's an article or a book into publication. I'm just curious how writing a book on contentment, publishing a book on contentment, how the book helped you or shaped you in practicing contentment as a writer as well.
Speaker 2:So I was rejected by multiple publishers before I got this book deal. I reached out to you, chase, you may not remember, and you kind of said a comment that I wish it weren't true. But platform is a big deal with getting signed and I knew that going into it. But I hadn't talked to this publisher and I won't say who they are, but they sort of I felt kind of led on by them and I was working with them and I told them about this idea and I submitted it and then they rejected it for a reason that I thought you know they could have easily told me prior and they kind of strung me along. They even said, hey, don't talk to anyone else besides us, and that that kind of gave me a negative taste. And then I'm I don't know what I'm doing. I really I know that getting an agent is better than cold emailing, but I need to figure this out. And so no agent didn't get a response. Uh, send it to other publishers and nobody, nobody took a shot and I I kind of quit on the project, if I can remember, and I just gave up on it.
Speaker 2:And then we were doing Ecclesiastes Bible study on night and I gave a co-pastor, one of my sample chapters. I thought, well, I'm not going to get signed, so I might as well just give it to him. And he read the chapter and he said, man, this is excellent, man, this is excellent. And then he looked at me and that little word excellent, that encouragement. I thought you know what? Why am I quitting on this? And I said to myself, I've been rejected by all these publishers and all these agents. I guess it's not God's will. But I said, you know, I'm going to give it one more shot. And so a friend introduced me to this publisher that I signed with. I didn't hear back from them for like four months. Chase, I was like, for me that's a long time. Publishers are slow If you're listening.
Speaker 2:You want to get signed, you want to write a book. Do not expect a quick reply. So I'm all but forgot about it and I thought, well, there goes another. No, and then it was like the week before Christmas a couple years ago and I could not believe it. But they said they want to take it towards publication. And so just even my story of being rejected by multiple publishers, kind of quitting on the project, feeling kind of like an idiot, honestly feeling like Noah, like what am I doing building this I spent all this time in private reading and writing, really feeling like God was in it and I just kept getting rejected. So I think even in the process, chase God taught me just to trust Him, to rely on Him and to recognize that His will will be done.
Speaker 2:In terms of writing in general, I think I heard Sam Albert or someone say this that pastors like writing because writing is very tangible and pastoring isn't. So when you pastor you can't really tell are you making a difference or not. But when you write you can, because you can check the stats and you can see who emails you and you can see how many copies you sold. And I think that tangibility of writing is one of the reasons why so many pastors like writing, not only because we're so influenced by books and we want to disseminate ideas, but it's a very tangible experience disseminate ideas, but it's a very tangible experience.
Speaker 2:So for me, I kind of feel like this whole contentment thing is I still want to keep growing in it. I don't want to feel like I got a book out or I've arrived. In fact, the Lord has sort of ordained some circumstances recently with the book coming out just now that I'm fighting for contentment as I write this book coming out just now that I'm fighting for contentment as I write this, as I speak this, and it's something that I'm aware of that I need to continue to pursue and protect it. So that's why I talk about it's a thousand decisions, not just one decision, just like losing weight, losing 20 pounds. You're not going to do that overnight. You have to make a hundred different decisions every week to ensure that you have that success. So the Lord taught me about contentment with all this, with the process and being rejected by so many publishers before getting signed with Christian Focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so much of that resonates with me. I often think and try to remind myself that at the end of the day, I have to just love and you said this about work like you just have to love what you're doing. You have to just love. And you said this about work you just have to love what you're doing. You have to just love the work of writing. If you're in this, thinking that putting a book on the shelf is somehow going to lead to contentment or that feeling of arrival, I can assure you even after the book comes out, there's just more challenges of contentment because now you start getting sales reports and numbers and that has impacts on future work. I mean it will just unnerve you at every possible step.
Speaker 1:So trying to just say, okay, at the end of the day, god's asked me to write and how much I can control publishing or who buys the book or what that looks like, so much of that is out of my hands. But what I can do is just faithfully come back to the work in front of me, to do that work as hard as I can. I like the way you described that. But then when it's time to rest and put down that work to put down that book. To actually set it down is, I think, a great challenge for writers. It requires some of the longest work of perseverance, I think, of anything I've ever done. And yet to try to not become obsessed or burn out from it but to just be content with what it is is a challenge for every writer, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, curious. Did you feel exposed when your book came out?
Speaker 1:I've talked a little bit about what surprises you is the first day. There's buzz, you're doing a ton of interviews, you're seeing the sales ranking, and then two things happen. Number one just because people bought the book doesn't mean they've read it, so it takes a long time for people to actually read the book, and you start getting feedback. So it's a little unnerving. You see, people are buying the book, but you just hear nothing and you don't know anything.
Speaker 1:And then the truth is there's usually some great encouragement and kind words from friends and people that reach out when the book launches, but things go quiet, pretty quick and sure, even if the book's still selling, it's not the rush, and particularly, I think, for both of us we're both pastors the books don't contribute in a large part financially to our family, and so the yard still needs to be mowed and the trash still needs to be taken out and the work still needs to be happening at church, and so it's interesting how quickly things sort of go back to normal. And then you say, all right, well, what's the next project I'm supposed to work on? I mean, that's really you just have to be grateful. The Lord's brought it into existence and trust he's going to do what he's going to do with it.
Speaker 2:Exactly right. I love that perspective. You said that it takes a long people to start reading the book if they order it, and I would even go say that some people who order the book never even read it.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah, or the friends you'll meet friends that are, you know, it's been like a year and a half and you're like so tired of promoting or talking about the thing and they'll say, yeah, I just picked up your book a few days ago and you think, what in the world, where has that been? So, yeah, you can't. One of the things I'll sometimes say to myself is have absolutely no expectations of anyone. No one owes me anything. If I can just go into it feeling that way, then you just set that bar really low for everyone in yourself. And whoever picks it up and reads it, awesome. Whoever doesn't, that's fine too. And yeah, some of the tricks I've tried to practice to keep hold of that contentment in the process.
Speaker 2:Love that. That's really helpful. Another thing is that sometimes people who do buy your book and start reading it, they can kind of quit on page 15. And so they never get through it all. So I tried to make the first chapter my best chapter, to kind of just be engaging and pull people all the way through. That's a little tip that I would say is if, as a writer, tried to just your your first few pages, your first 10 pages, you don't assume people are going to give you the time of day that they will not. You got to grip, just like your sermon introduction. You got to get people's attention right away and try to draw them in. Don't don't be gimmicky, don't be theatrical unnecessarily, don't be some something you're not, but just basic skills of logic and how to argue.
Speaker 2:I was reading On Writing Well, which is a Christian book on writing, which is very helpful. He said get emotional. The writer said get emotional attention. State the problem, state proposed solutions to the problem, say why those proposed solutions are inadequate and then state your solution, and I kind of use that form. Throughout the book I talked about my story. Here's the problem discontentment. Here's what the world says, here's the remedy. And I'm hoping I'm learning as a communicator that how you start and how you begin as a writer really dictates whether or not people will stick with you for the rest of the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that trust you build up, I do also. I tend to write and edit with a perhaps it's slightly unhealthy, but this just constant fear that I'm boring people, right? So, like everything I'm writing, I'm thinking have I lost people or people just checking out on this? You know, am I bored reading what I wrote? Like that's a big red flag for me too. So, yeah, just trying to be and I think that's a stewardship too If people are giving you time, quite a bit of time, to read a book, like you know, I want to make sure that I'm set it the best way that I possibly can to help them engage that content. Yep, absolutely Well, curious if you have any other uh work in progress and we've talked about how slow and long that progress can sometimes be, but a call to contentment was really well done, so I'm hoping maybe some future work as well yeah, I, I don't, I don't have.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, if you're, if you're listening to this, please go out and get uh, if you feel compelled to call to contentment, uh from there. Uh, similar to you, chase, you have this ministry, this wonderful ministry for pastors. I've been thinking about starting a ministry for pastors, writing one kind of like a sub stack.
Speaker 1:Have you heard of sub stack? Yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I've been thinking about doing Substack and starting something on just how to be organized, how to work. You kind of saw my love for it with kind of that rule stay productive and work hard. My background is business and then supplement sales and then theology, and so that intersection of like how to be productive, how to go about sermon preparation, time management, avoiding burnout, those kinds of things. So I kind of want to start a sub stack for pastors exclusively about how to be organized and how to go about your work. And I think it's a lane that a lot of us pastors we know what to do but sort of how to do it and we have a lot of ignorance on self-care because we're so used to training for theology and ministry that we're not really in tune to that. So I'm thinking about starting a sub-stack for pastors on how to avoid burnout, how to be productive and how to be organized as a pastor, and no one's talking about it. So I feel like it's a lane I can run in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that sounds great. If people want to be able to pick up a copy of the book, A Call to Contentment, or maybe just keep up with you and learn about future opportunities like this one, is there a best place people can follow you or just get more information?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm really not worth following on social media. I guess this would be a good plug for that, but I don't engage as much there. I don't engage as much there. Just go to my blog, gospelrelevancecom. If you subscribe, that'd be great. If not, it's all good. Still, shoot me an email, get in touch. We'd love to reach out to you. I want to be accessible. I want to be approachable, so don't think that I'm hard to reach. I'm not.
Speaker 1:And we'd love to serve you in any wayless World with David K Wood. David, thanks so much for sticking with it. The long process of publishing really a needed book, a great book on a needed conversation, and I'm just grateful to be able to have you on the podcast today.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I'll have a link to Drew's book there if you're interested in picking it up and checking it out. Also, if you haven't subscribed, maybe take a moment to subscribe to the show and also consider leaving a review. You can click a star rating wherever you listen to podcasts or take a moment to type out a brief review. I always love getting that feedback and I'm looking forward to this new year, looking forward to many great conversations together. So I hope you're subscribed. We'll have a lot of fun in the conversations to come. Thanks for listening. Thank you, the Thank you.