Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
Brian Croft & Ronnie Martin — Redefining Productivity for a More Sustainable Ministry
Brian Croft is the former Senior Pastor of Au-burn-dale Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky and is the Founder of Practical Shepherding. He is also Senior Fellow for the Mathena Center for Church Revitalization and an Adjunct Professor at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Ronnie Martin is founder and lead pastor of Substance Church (EFCA) in Ashland, Ohio. Before pastoral ministry, Ronnie was an internationally known recording artist, producing and releasing over 15 albums for the Tooth and Nail Records label. In addition to pastoring Substance, Ronnie is also the Director of Leader Renewal for Harbor Network, a church planting collective based out of Louisville, Kentucky. He has authored 6 books, including The God Who Is With Us, and regularly speaks at conferences for pastors and church planters.
Brian and Ronnie join me to discuss their new book on the unhurried pastor and how we can redefine productivity for a more sustainable ministry.
You're listening to episode 219 of the Pastor-Writer Podcast conversations on reading, writing and the Christian life. I'm your host, chase Replogle. Most pastors know what it is to keep a busy schedule, and it's not just pastors in ministry. Our churches create a lot of busyness as well. We measure our success by how much we're doing, by how packed the calendar is, but that can have a detriment on what ministry looks like and longevity as a pastor. I'm really excited to talk with Brian Croft and Ronnie Martin about their new book, the Unhurried Pastor, what it means to redefine productivity and to build a more sustainable ministry, both as ministers but also in the way we're leading and building churches as well. They bring really helpful insights. The conversation is both challenging but also really practical on how we can make this change. We also get to share a little bit of our love for Eugene Peterson. That often comes up in the podcast, but in a helpful way today as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm joined on the podcast today by two guests Brian Croft and Ronnie Martin. Brian Croft is the former senior pastor of Auburndale Baptist Church in Louisville, kentucky, and is the founder of the Practical Shepherding. He's also senior fellow for the Mathena Center for Church Revitalization and an adjunct professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Ronnie Martin is founder and lead pastor of Substance Church in Ashland, ohio. Before pastoral ministry, ronnie was an internationally known recording artist, producing and releasing over 15 albums for the Tooth Nail Records label.
Speaker 1:In addition to pastoring Substance, ronnie is also the director of Leader Renewal for Harbor Networks, a church planning collective based out of Louisville, kentucky, and he's authored six books, including the God who Is With Us and regularly speaks at conferences and pastors church planner conferences around the country. It's always a privilege to have two guests on, and maybe a good place for us to start is. I'd love to hear a little bit of how your paths crossed. I noticed there's some Louisville language, maybe in both bios and today we're talking about your new book, the Unhurried Pastor, so maybe how you met and how that book came about.
Speaker 2:Ronnie, let's see, how did we meet.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking the same thing. I'm blanking out how. It same thing. I'm blanking out how, how it? I think we had a mutual friend that introduced us, who I believe is the executive director of the network. I'm with Harbor network and I believe it was Dave Owens that connected us. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. So I should say, jason, I was aware of Ronnie, uh, just uh, through social media and some of his work, his ministry and and but yeah, you're Ronnie, dave, dave Owens, who who is the leader of Harbor Network, is he's? I was having lunch with him and and he said you know, he was just bringing Ronnie up and the work he was doing with him. I said, yeah, I know who he is, but I've never met him. And Dave said, oh, you, you guys should meet, you guys would, you guys would enjoy each other. And I think Dave was right about that. So Ronnie and I met and became friends and have grown close through the years and I've gotten to do some different ministry things together and thinking through things and being friends and supporting one another. And then the book just kind of came out of that.
Speaker 1:Well, I got a chance to read the book in advance and I knew right away it was going to be one I was going to resonate with. But a really, really helpful book Again. The book is entitled the Unhurried Pastor Redefining Productivity for a More Sustainable Ministry. The book itself it begins by kind of laying out a state of resilience for pastors and I think for most pastors and probably people within the church. They're aware of some pretty sobering statistics when it comes to pastoral retention, when it comes to how pastors are doing. If you were going to set that up the challenge you think pastors are facing right now that brought you both to this book project how would you frame sort of the state of pastors right now?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I think you know, and I know we're all tired of talking about the pandemic, but I think it's a reality that is still in play in terms of, I think, just the experience of pastors, something that was this global thing that happened, that made what pastors already do, which is such a difficult vocation, a difficult job, and it brought in all of these new elements in terms of what it was to pastor.
Speaker 3:Some of the disorienting elements that kind of came as a result of the pandemic and now you have really just the aftermath of that churches that were kind of cleaned out and you know church members that left for all kinds of varying reasons that pastors had very little control over.
Speaker 3:And I think right now it's put pastoring in general in just maybe not a place that it was never in before, but definitely it's allowed, or I should say it's caused pastors to just evaluate and reevaluate what it is they're doing, why they're doing what they're doing doing, and it's I think disorientation is a word that's come up a lot where, you know, in terms of the call itself, I think a lot of, I think a lot of pastors I talk to you know are just saying hey, I just, I need. I'm looking for some encouragement, I'm looking for some reminders in my life for what I'm doing, why I'm doing what I'm doing, because it just it feels just harder, it just feels more difficult than it did even five years ago. And so I think those are just some of the things that have come up in a, you know, post pandemic pastoring, if I can say it like that.
Speaker 1:I noticed reading the book that there's quite a bit of Eugene Peterson, which of course was a joy to me as well, to anybody who's listened to the podcast. Peterson also often comes up because he's had a huge impact on me. But one of the things you specifically key into is this idea of us being busy pastors and the danger of sort of that idea. Peterson draws out the language itself, brian, the role Peterson's perhaps been for you and why that significance of him framing this danger of being a busy pastor. Obviously the book An Unhurried Pastor. You're offering an alternative.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I appreciate the question because Peterson has had a unique impact on me, but I would say it's only been the last 10 years that Peterson has had an impact on me. I actually remember writing a book, a review of one of Peterson's books over a decade ago and I was quite critical and I look back on that and realized here's how I've shared it with people that I actually didn't have the maturity to appreciate Eugene Peterson and I feel like I do now, and I almost had to grow into realizing what a, I think, a prophetic voice that Peterson had in so many ways. There's plenty of things I don't agree with Peterson on, but it doesn't change, especially that article that he wrote on the unbusy pastor that we give a major nod to in this book, feeling obligated to, because he's the one that I think pioneered that idea.
Speaker 2:I think what makes Peterson unique is he wrote that article and he wrote, you know, that article was a chapter in the Contemplative Past or published in the late 80s, I think, and Peterson wrote at a time where the Internet didn't exist.
Speaker 2:He wrote at a time where social media didn't exist, and so something I would probably add even to the previous question you asked Chase is, I think, ronnie's exactly right the last five years.
Speaker 2:But I even would go back further. I think social media has changed what it means to be a pastor and the really unprecedented pressures that you face with it, in pastors comparing themselves to each other unlike never before, and I think that's leading to a huge amount of burnout, discouragement, depression. And Peterson had this prophetic voice decades before the internet shows up to speak to the pace and the unhealthy way that pastors were doing ministry, and so I think Peterson saw something nobody else saw and other than that article in that book it just kind of faded into the background and Ronnie and I felt a burden, because of Peterson impacting both of us in these latter years, to be able to bring that back, give the proper credit. And then how do we give a context of an unhurried ministry life in a social media age, in the post-pandemic age and all the things we're facing in a social media age and the post-pandemic age and all the things we're facing.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about Peterson's writing on this topic and I think it's in his memoir the Pastor, where he uses a description from Moby Dick, the harpooner on the ship that, as they're preparing to sort of harpoon this whale, you know, the crew is running around fixing lines, adjusting sails, everybody's in motion. But he says, the harpooner begins his work in the seated position that his job is to be, and you bring up his book Contemplative, that the pastor, he does his work from this place of prayer, this place of contemplation, this place of quietness, stillness. Then jumping into the actual work itself, one of the things you guys do early in the book is you talk about a need for pastors to be human. Ronnie, maybe you could talk a little bit about how pastors are perhaps not being human and what it looks like to do this pastoral work out of the humanity that we all are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, gosh, I think there's particular demands on pastors that I think have always been there and certainly I think to Brian's point. You know those have changed, you know, in the internet age and certainly in the you know even the post pandemic age that we're in today. But I, you know what I've noticed and I'll just speak, you know, just personal experience is that there's a, there's a there can be a dehumanizing effect to the work of the pastor, and that goes along, I think, with the expectations of many congregants right, which is that a pastor needs to be kind of, have this all things to all people and have this like multiplicity of gifts that need to be available at all times. And I think what that does to a pastor is it doesn't allow him to be human, it doesn't allow him to have limitations or to be somebody that even maybe feels the vulnerability or the opportunity to share that. Hey, you know, I am just a human being, I was not born a pastor, you know.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things I say early on, maybe in chapter one, is I'm not, I'm actually a person before I'm a pastor. A pastor is just the vocation that I was called to. But if I'm not in touch with that. If I'm not in touch with my humanity in the way that Jesus is very in touch with my humanity, then I'm going to be facing all kinds of difficult things on my pastoral journey and it's going to lead to the kind of statistical burnout that we see.
Speaker 3:And so it's really important for a pastor to wake up in the morning, look at himself in the mirror and say, hey, before I am this person. That's going to be, you know, communicating with people, extending the gifts that God has given to me as a minister of the gospel. I am just a person and that means that I can't do everything that I'm even called to do on this day. But I have to lean into my humanity as a way to be somebody who can flourish in the role that God has called me to. So it's just a super, I think, super important foundational element really to the book is acknowledging, you know, our humanness and our limitations, you know, in these roles for sure.
Speaker 1:Do you have advice on, maybe, how you've lived that before a congregation? Because I think you articulate right that there is sort of two traps. The pastor can sort of just sort of hide their humanity, step into this sort of perceived role and just sort of divide their life in that way. Other pastors, I think, can sometimes divulge too much, right. I don't think your solution is to get up and just bear it all in front of your congregation. This certainly can't be an excuse either. I'm just a human. We are called into this work. So a way that you can, with a congregation, lead them into what might be an appropriate relationship, an appropriate view of how a pastor is human in the midst of the work.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a good question, you know, and I think there's a lot of different approaches and I think it varies, you know, I think it varies when you consider the. You know the personality of a pastor, when you consider congregations and you know getting a sense of their history and maybe what they've gone through and maybe their experience with other pastors. But I think there's a way, as a pastor, to make this a little more part of the conversation in terms of your opportunities to teach and to preach and, again, to do it in a way that lets your people know that you are just a person and that your desire is to minister to them and to pastor them. But there also but there also needs to be, you know, some, um, some some high self-awareness, I think from the standpoint of the pastor and the congregation that just says, hey, there's limitations to what I can do here, and you should be aware that I'm a person that has limitations, as I'm growing more aware of my own limitations. So there's a I think there can be sort of this, you know, symbiotic relationship between the pastor and the congregation.
Speaker 3:That's never going to be perfect, but I definitely think it needs to be discussed, it needs to be put on the table at least and acknowledged, you know, because again, when you, you know to look at a, to look at a church member and say, hey, you know, I'm a human being, right, you know, and you're going to get some laughs with that, but I think it's also going to put just sort of some imagery in their mind about the fact that, hey, that's not to push you off or to put you off, it's just to, you know, establish that, hey, for this relationship to work in a way that we can both flourish, there has to be that acknowledgement.
Speaker 1:I think Brian was capturing some of this too. In the age of social media, it does feel like there's a lot of pressure for a pastor to sort of lean into public persona, public image. I hear more and more the language of content that a pastor is producing content. You know, social media content. I always sort of bristle at that because that feels very unlike human language. You know, I think a sermon, I think prayer is human, but content can feel a little like you're a machine producing something. But I do think that's the temptation, particularly in the social media age, to be the public appearance, to produce the content, to sort of be the thing people want to see. Brian, is that sort of what you're sensing in these unique challenges of social media as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's two main pressures that pastors feel in this modern day of ministry, and one of them is a pressure from the congregation to have to meet certain needs and expectations that they put on him, and he feels that the other pressure is just the pressure he puts on himself and the combination of those two pressures is what I think leads to pastors feeling overwhelmed, pastors to Ronnie's point, pastors not embracing their own humanity and feeling like they have to be you know three people, for because either the congregation demands it of them or they put that pressure on themselves, but either way it leads to an unsustainable way to do ministry. But I think the feeling, the pressures of that is where it starts. And social media Chase, I think, just puts it on steroids. To be honest with you, I think the add to that now I have to produce content for Twitter or whatever, or my blog or whatever it is, and you actually put that pressure on yourself.
Speaker 2:To be validated as a modern day pastor, I have to have content that's being posted, and so the amount of pressure that is felt, I think that. And then the combination of guys just not being prepared for it. They're caught off guard by the amount of different kinds, just the layers of pressure that they feel, both from the congregation, from social media, from themselves, from the conference scene. I mean just there's all kinds of things that feeds into. I can't be just an average faithful pastor I'm supposed to be more than that and it ends up putting guys in a place where they don't embrace their own humanity and they burn out quick because of it.
Speaker 1:The word that's already come up that I think we're all sort of talking about, is this idea of self-awareness. Ronnie, that's one of the sections in the book that you contribute. That part of becoming an unhurried pastor means cultivating a sense of self-awareness, which I think the question that always begs itself is how you know. If you're not self-aware, how do you become self-aware? What does that process look like? Beginning to see some of these things, even the things Brian's describing, in yourself?
Speaker 3:Well, gosh, that's a great question. I risk losing my self-awareness now to become self-aware, right, you know it's. You know again. The first step of that, I think, is acknowledging that you know, and I think all good things in terms of you know, understanding who we are as people and understanding who we are as you know, you know being made in the Imago Dei, in the image of God, I, you know, I think that comes through.
Speaker 3:I think that that comes through a lot of times, the spiritual disciplines. You know. I mean just this. You know this commitment to coming before the Lord as a person, in my humanity, and saying, lord, I'm going to miss some things and I need you to reveal these things to me. I need you to reveal my weaknesses to me. I need you to and also, you know, encourage me in some of the strengths that you've given me.
Speaker 3:And I think that there is just, I think what we're talking about is a wisdom issue here, is a discernment issue here, which is the ability to you know through again, I think you know our own personal prayer times, know having friendships like the one you know, the one Brian and I have, which is just to say, hey, I need people around me to tell me things about myself that I'm not going to so easily see.
Speaker 3:But I have to have the desire to do that right.
Speaker 3:So part of it is saying, hey, what's going to be best for me is going to be just having an increased level of understanding and discernment about not just only the world and the things I see around me and in my ministry, but even in my own heart. And I need to have people around me that are wise, that have that level of discernment, that are going to help me cultivate my own level of discernment. You know, and so I think it really is, it's to me it's two things it's it's it's personal disciplines, you know, in terms of your spiritual disciplines, and it's surrounding yourself with people that are willing to be honest with you. And that can be a really difficult thing too. As pastors, you know that can be. Its own struggle is finding people that are willing to be honest with you, who you've given permission to to be honest with you. And I'm not saying those two things are easy. But the desire to even want to step into those spaces, I think is a great first step, you know.
Speaker 1:In part three of the book, brian, you offer some, I think, some really practical ways of doing this, even as Ronnie's describing them. One of the ones that struck me pretty quickly was the idea of silence. I'll often joke with my wife as a pastor who's preaching, and then in my writing and look, I have a podcast, look, I'm this guy producing all the content, right? I'll sometimes say to my wife I'm just really tired of hearing myself talk, which I think is a way of saying I just need some silence. What is this role of silence that can reshape our sense of hurry or pace in the pastoral work?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that just entertain this idea for a moment. What if noise and busyness is the best way to avoid your soul and the activity of our soul? And as we were just talking, as Ronnie was just talking, about the ability to become aware of what's going on internally, then I believe that silence and I think you have to add stillness into that, and I think you have to add stillness into that Silence and stillness then, can be the best way for us to become aware of those things, to be aware of what am I feeling emotionally, to be aware of what are my motives and what I'm doing, to be aware of the presence of God and how God is trying to minister to our souls. I think we have to have silence and stillness to be able to receive that and to be able to evaluate that. And a lot of times I think we run from it, we run from silence and we run from stillness, I think just naturally because a lot of us are doers.
Speaker 2:But in my case, chase, silence was tormenting for me. So it was tied to some really deep personal things in my own life where, when I was silent and while I was still the voices, the critical, negative voices in my head just ran crazy and it was very haunting for me. So I dealt with it by never sitting in silence, not being still, and that was the way that I was able to avoid it sitting in silence, not being still and that was the way that I was able to avoid it. And that was, of course, until just life came crashing down and I was forced to deal with it. So silence and stillness is, I think, one of the it's a lost discipline in the Christian life. First of all and second, I think it is the best way for us to be able to grow aware of the presence of Christ in our life, what we need and how he can minister best to us in that environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I may be risking a kind of stupid question here, but what does it for you look like to practice silence and stillness? Because I think for a lot of pastors perhaps, I'm imagining I'm going to do this thing and immediately it's my to-do list I'm thinking about, or I sit down with the Bible and immediately it's notes in the margins for some sermon that's upcoming, but to be able to get to a place where there is actual silence and stillness, what does that look like? How can a person begin that process if that's not something they too have experienced?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because I watch. I think a lot of guys think of the discipline of silence. They go in and they'll sit in silence and they'll just keep knocking out their to-do list in some way, and it's not listening to a podcast or music. That's not the point of silence. So it's, in a sense, sitting in silence, being still, and what happens to your soul when you don't have a bunch of stuff to do. What happens to your mind and your heart when you're just, when it's just you and your thoughts. You don't have anybody else around. So I think it's a matter of setting small goals, to sit in silence and just be present in that moment. I think it's better to sit in silence 10 minutes a day every day than to sit in silence one hour one day of the week. I think it's one of those things that we have to have small doses of, because in a sense, it really counters, if we're honest, the way the rest of our life functions. So one of the things I would also say that helped me and what does it mean to just sit in silence?
Speaker 2:For a long time I was just a terrible listener. And you're talking about Jason. You're getting tired of the sound of your own voice. Silence is a great way to stop talking and just listen. So a lot of times what I will still do is I'll take a walk, I'll go on a hike, I'll be in nature and I'll sit and I'll be still and I'll close my eyes and I will just listen to whatever sounds I can pick up in nature. And it's amazing what you can hear when you're not talking and you're not thinking about what you're supposed to say next, when you're listening to somebody, and so I actually had became a better listener simply by being silent and listening to what's around me. There is a rest that comes, there's a calm that comes when you don't feel like you have to talk or respond to anybody, and if anybody needs that, it's pastors.
Speaker 1:One of the things we're kind of gluing in on in each of these conversations is the work that's required, the self-awareness that's required. You used the word in that third section, brian, that there's a kind of emotional courage that's required, and I thought that phrase was really interesting. We perhaps think of courage in the actions that we're taking or the sermons we're preaching. What does it mean to possess emotional courage, and why is that critical to this unhurried life?
Speaker 2:MO for men is to just shut emotion off, and that's how we deal with pain a lot of times is, we don't want to feel the pain, so we shut our emotions down and we numb ourselves, and the problem with that is that when you don't feel, then I think it's impossible to be aware of what's going on in your soul. I think allowing yourself to deeply feel is one of the best ways to grow aware of what's going on. Am I feeling sad or angry, or fearful, or joy or whatever it might be? And so emotional courage, I think, is taking the risk to feel and to actually deeply feel and I say this often and this is part of my story.
Speaker 2:I mean I spent most of my 20s and 30s completely emotionally shut down because of pain in my life that I didn't want to feel, and until I started dealing with it and then allowing myself to feel and saw the gift that is, and we're creating the image of God. That's how I believe we're made to function. You read all throughout the Gospels and if you look for the humanity of Jesus, you see it in him, with deep compassion and love for people. You see him angry, turning tables. You see him weeping at the tomb of Lazarus. The full human experience is to feel, but we all know it's really risky to feel emotionally and be vulnerable and be honest about how we feel, and so I think it takes courage Chase to feel, and pastors who feel deeply are a gift to this world, but a lot of them do not feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ronnie, I wonder your experience of that as well too what it means, the role emotions play pastorally for you, but also what it means to have courage in the way that you're experiencing those emotions.
Speaker 3:Well, gosh, I love the way Brian just described that. I don't know that I can add much to it. I think, on a personal level, I think personalities and experiences really play a lot into what Brian was talking about and I having the courage to, you know, and it's a process, right to be able to have to look at our stories with a level of honesty and then to allow the Lord to work out, you know, some of the wounds and some of the ways that we've been damaged within those stories. It's a process. I think it takes work and I think, depending on your story and your personality, it's going to take that much more work. You know so I'm an ultra extroverted Enneagram four. So I'm the big, you know, artist feeler type. So when it gets time to talk about emotions, that's something that actually gives me life, because it's cathartic for me and I look forward to those opportunities when I'm sitting down with my counselor and when I'm in a room and I get to talk about our emotions, you know. So that's, you know, and depending on where you're at, I'm just describing like the worst scenario for you in the world, potentially, but for me it's something that just, given the way that the Lord has designed me. It's something that is easier for me Now. It doesn't make the complications in my life any easier to work out. It just means that my ability to approach it might be easier than somebody else. But I think that comes into play.
Speaker 3:And then, when I think of pastors, I think that what I have noticed with a lot of the pastors that I'm ministering to, you know, especially on a network level which is my job, you know, for a Harbor Network is pastors feel like people that they have to hold a lot of things together, and so what you see is a lot of guys that are carrying a lot of things that they don't feel the freedom to release, and so you see a lot of guys that are, you know, they're walking around very tight and very rigid because they feel like by letting these emotions go and actually having the courage to express these emotions, it's going to paint a picture of themselves to their people that puts them in a dangerous place, and so these can just be incredibly complex things and I don't, you know, to give a short or quick answer I don't think is necessarily helpful.
Speaker 3:I really love what Brian said, but I think, even going back to what he said earlier about stillness and silence and having that growing awareness that these are things that I need to bring before the Lord, that he needs to really, really grow in me so that I don't become like a petrified forest of a person, but I can actually grow in my courage to let my emotions work, work for me in a way that produces a renewed softness and and which leads to, which leads to a more resilient life, you know, and so these are.
Speaker 3:These are complex things to talk about on a podcast, right, because we're getting into things that are going to take time and they're full of processes and we need other people to help us do these things as well. But if you're, if you're somebody out there listening that just feels overwhelmed, my, my encouragement would be hey, you know what? There there's the Lord. The Lord's going to provide you with with the means and the people and and some renewed experiences in your life for you to tap into some of these things Again, if you take those initial steps.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ronnie, I'm glad you came there, because I know the one challenge of a conversation like this is you take a pastor who is living at sort of breakneck speed, no time for themselves, and what this conversation can feel like is we just added 10 minutes of prayer and silence to their day, which has added.
Speaker 1:You know, apparently now I've got to talk about my emotions to a counselor and I've also got to like work on some system for self-awareness, and it can just feel like these things are just adding more to them. I was thinking I think it was, I think it was Luther at one point who wrote about his day being so busy he needed an extra hour of prayer. Right, this idea that when we think we're so busy, the last thing we imagine we can do is add more, but perhaps these particular things that allow us to slow down. There's a kind of paradox there, and you describe at the end of the book that the way you describe it is that sometimes we have to do less to accomplish more. What does that look like? And what would you say to somebody who all they can hear when they even hear conversations like this is more, more, more. What else they need to be doing?
Speaker 3:Well, I know that's a really that's a hard question to answer, right, I think what I encourage guys in is I just say look, there's, you know, we it's the tyranny of the urgent right for pastors, and there's always something to be done and there's always something to give our time and attention to. And when there isn't, well we still got that sermon that is never going to be finished till the second I preach it, you know. And so there's just these nagging realities, you know, in the life of a pastor, and I think sometimes we need to step back and I think we need to give ourselves opportunity and permission to reevaluate and reorganize our lives. And you know, the Lord has given us hearts and he's given us minds to be able to do clean sweeps and to use, maybe, people in our lives, whether it's a spouse or a really close friend, to be able to look at our lives and say, hey, you know what I want, to embrace this idea of being a person before a pastor and really becoming better in touch with my humanity.
Speaker 3:That requires wisdom and discernment. And to look at our schedules, to look at the things that we're prioritizing and saying, hey, you know, maybe it's time to reassess and reevaluate some of these things that I'm giving time and attention to, because I'm maybe operating at a level of anxiety that the Lord would not have for me, and so I always go to wisdom and discernment. Instead of just continuing to just cycle through these patterns that are just, you know, increasing my stress levels, maybe it's time to take a couple of days and to step back and to say hold on, what am I doing, and how do I apply the wisdom of God and the discernment of the Holy Spirit to all these practical things in my life and maybe get somebody to help me with it, so that I don't just keep cycling through unhealthy patterns? I think all pastors have the ability to do that, and they need to do that, I would say, on a more regular basis so that they're cultivating, you know, just greater health.
Speaker 1:One of the things I really liked about the book is the end has an appendix that you call a daily spiritual health plan, and I think it's a little bit of what Ronnie's describing or could perhaps be. It's a suggestion Well, I can let you describe it too, but it's a suggestion of what this kind of rhythm of life and ministry could look like, and for me it was a really helpful tool to sort of ask does that space exist in my life? Have I framed my ministry and my life in such a way that I could live in these healthy patterns?
Speaker 2:Well, I feel the need to just send that back to Ronnie, because that was Ronnie's plan that he put together. I think he's the best to speak to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, feel free, ronnie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, thanks, Ryan. You know, I think it goes back to a lot of what I just said, and I and I, chase, I appreciate what you said a minute ago, which was're giving them what you know sounds like more hurried things to do. And so this daily spiritual health plan is just, it just has a bunch of little prompts throughout the day, specifically written for pastors, where they can maybe use what's helpful. And it really just going back to what Brian said about, about silence and stillness, and it really just going back to what Brian said about silence and stillness. It's just hey, we are making choices every minute of every day about the things that we are deciding to do, and so what this does is says, hey, here's some options when it comes to the choices we make.
Speaker 3:And these are things that require us to kind of do kind of ongoing self-evaluations, where we come before the Lord and we literally become a little more self-aware, not just of our own self, but of maybe what the Lord is doing and how the Spirit might be speaking to us and prompting us, you know, at any given minute of the day.
Speaker 3:And so this is just sort of a guide that will allow a pastor to maybe find a few pockets of time during the day, even if he only has a minute here or there, to kind of look and just give them some examples of ways that they might want to be thinking and processing and praying, given just the makeup of their day, and so it's almost something that a pastor can kind of carry around as a tool, and whether it's almost something that, you know, a pastor can kind of carry around as a tool, and whether it's like, hey, I'm going to take a half an hour for lunch, or I'm going to have a coffee break, or I'm going to just take a walk around the block, you know, to recharge, these are things that can sort of aid a pastor and, again, not just do it as a way to veg out and check out, but to do something that's very intentional in terms of how we are wanting to continue to engage with the Lord in our daily lives.
Speaker 2:Chase, can I add something to that? Yeah, please do so. I think this is the brilliance of Peterson in that he's calling pastors to just think differently about how to do ministry, think differently about how to do ministry. So I would just you mentioned a minute ago. You know that guys are going to be tempted to think, oh so okay. So what you're saying is, I need to add silence and stillness, I need to add meeting with a counselor into my schedule, and I'm glad you said that, because I think that's exactly how most pastors will respond initially to this.
Speaker 2:And I just want to say here's a great moment of self-awareness. If that's how you're evaluating ultimately what we're talking about, I think you're missing, actually, the point. What we're trying to call pastors to is a complete reorientation of how you think about doing ministry in the first place. This is not adding things to the list as much as a different way to go about doing ministry and trying to get out of the rat race, and I think that I just think that was the brilliance of Peterson. Anybody knows his story you know, knows that's what he did. I mean, he essentially almost resigned. He was about to resign from his church and his elders were like hold on, no, we'll take this other stuff, so you can go do what you feel like you need to do, and that's the only reason Peterson stayed in his ministry, and I think he's a great example of what is needed and what we're called to today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I think that's what I got from the book. I know it's what you're trying to say too. It's not how do I do all the things I'm still doing in a less hurried way. It's what does it mean to be an unhurried pastor, that the place you're doing ministry from is a different place, a different source, and I do think that comes through in a really clear way in the book as another way of trying to do the pastoral work, the pastoral vocation.
Speaker 1:I did have another line that really stood out to me. You mentioned early in the book that you realize both of you are probably too busy to write the book, that there's a challenge to doing all of the work, the pastoral work, and then to add on top of it this calling or this work of writing. A lot of our listeners are pastors who are also trying to write, or they're perhaps in another vocation but interested in writing. Ronnie, I'd be interested to hear you talk a little bit about how some of this, what you've been doing and learning through this book, how some of that can apply to the life of a writer as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, gosh, it was so funny. I remember when we were just kind of kicking off the process and Brian, you can help me with this a little bit, but I remember texting Brian and going, I don't know that we're, I feel like we're the last two people in the world that should be writing this book, and I think Brian goes. I think, no, he goes, you're right, which is really why we're the first two people that should write this book. You know, because we're these people that have all these different things going on and you know we're constantly writing and all of this, and but but what?
Speaker 3:I think, I think in a in a healthy way again, pastors that want to write. That's a good desire, and I think writing can be one of the ways that pastors can kind of break this sort of busy and hurried cycle in their lives. You know, because writing in and of itself, you know it is kind of an activity that requires a bit of silence and solitude, and I think writing in and of itself can be something that's cathartic. You know, if we're not really good at expressing ourselves, a lot of times we can do it best on paper. And since pastors are writers, they're writing sermons every week, I, you know, to me I encourage guys that if they, if they're saying, man, I would love to write, how do I write? I go. Well, I go. Do you preach? I go, because that means you are writing, you're writing and you need to take maybe what you've learned through that process and start writing some other things down that actually pique your interest.
Speaker 3:And I think pastors that get into a habit of writing or even journaling or maybe writing articles or blogs. I think it's just a great way to articulate your thoughts and get out some of those feelings and maybe get some clarity to some of the things in our lives that may be just a little abstract or that we wish we had a little more definition in our lives. But again, it's one of those things where it's like everything else, it's like, hey, if I'm going to write, it means that I have to say no to other things. So if I'm saying yes to writing, I'm saying no to fill in the blank, and so again, it's something where if it's a priority for you, if it's something you want to learn and grow in, you have to set aside the time for it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Brian, it strikes me as there's the sort of same temptation that you face in the pastoral vocation and sort of the writing vocation, and that I was thinking you could have a conversation around the hurried writer and the unhurried writer, because there's certainly a mode of writing that is, produce fast, play, the platform game, you know the same social media pressures. But I think what Ronnie's describing as well too, is this approach to writing, which has certainly been true for me as well, that, look, this is where a lot of the self-awareness happens. Right, this is the honesty of writing, is where some of that emotional courage comes into play, and certainly the solitude, the stillness, the quietness of trying to write has been the way I've tried to approach it as well, but certainly I've experienced that same tension of how to do the work, perhaps same question how writing this book and thinking about being an unhurried pastor has impacted you as a writer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would two other thoughts to add. I think what Ronnie said was excellent. Two thoughts that come to mind.
Speaker 2:One is just the best writing advice I ever received still to this day was Tim Challies, who in my early years of just starting to write I didn't have any confidence as a writer. I knew I was not a good writer, and he said something that profoundly changed the way I viewed writing. He said it's writing. You should write if you have something to say. He says there's plenty of guys who know how to write but don't have anything to say, and that changed it for me, because I felt like I had something to say, but I did not have any confidence in my writing ability. And so what I learned from that and what I've seen through writing for years is the key to writing and writing something that's going to be helpful is writing out of a place in your life and ministry that you actually feel like you have something to say, and not just for the sake of writing. So I would first say that have something to say. I think the writing process is a lot more productive when you have that.
Speaker 2:The second thing I would say is I get asked through the years how I have written as much as I have, and I usually try to answer in a provocative way. To make a point, I'll say, well, I usually went to bed and slept eight hours, and they're expecting me to say, well, I stayed up, my kids went to bed, my wife wife went to bed and I spent from midnight to 3 am writing and that's how I got my writing done. I think a lot of pastors, because we're functioning on 50, 60 percent, we're functioning in an exhausted place. We are not at our best most of the time. So what we're advocating for and I think it affects the writing process, it did for me. What we're advocating for and I think it affects the writing process, it did for me take care of yourself, Embracing your humanity. Doing the things that we've been talking about actually puts us at a better place to be able to work smarter, not harder, and you're more productive out of doing less. That's kind of the less is more idea, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great. The book we've been talking about the Unhurried Pastor, redefining Productivity for a More Sustainable Ministry the book again, really highly recommend it. I think the conversation reflects well the depth you'll find there, the modeling of another way of doing ministry, which I'm really grateful for. I think readers, if you're a pastor, pick it up. Maybe pick up a copy for your pastor. I think it would make a great gift as well. I'm curious do you have any future collaborations in the works or either one of you individually projects you're working on now?
Speaker 3:What do you got Brian?
Speaker 2:Well, no. So I have been trying to whittle down the list, get them done, and I would like to stop writing for a while. But my team mocks me because I've been saying that for years. But I'll say this Ronnie is my good friend and I had so much fun doing this with him. We have a lot of other plans to do another ministry together. Whether it'll be writing or not, I don't know, but I love doing collaboration with him and so I definitely know that that'll be in the future. But at this point I'm trying to dial back the writing a bit on my own project. So but, ronnie, what about you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, yeah, this was a joy, you know, to collaborate on this for sure. So I'm looking forward to seeing what God, you know, might open up for us down the road. I think currently, right now, I am, I'm working on a book. Currently, right now, I'm working on a book. It's basically 365 prayers short prayers, very poetic prayers as something that you can go to and read as a daily prayer journal. So I'm working on that. That's coming out the end of 2025. So around the holiday season. So that's something that I'm working on slowly, day by day. It's taken a lot of time, but it's it's more of an artistic project and it's coming out with B&H and I'm really looking forward to to that thing just coming to fruition, and that's that's probably the only thing worth mentioning right now that I'm working on. But Brian and I are also planning some some stuff around this book as well, and it's always fun when you have a friend to do these things with. So this is going to be a joy for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, what's the best place? If somebody wanted to pick up the book or maybe learn about future events or resources around the book, is there a best place they could go? Or even just to keep up with both of you?
Speaker 3:Gosh, yeah, brian, you probably. You know. So I have a website, ronnymartinorg, and it usually stays decently current, so that's where people can get you know, kind of get info on other books and all those types of things. And, brian, you probably have your own take on that. Yeah, well, I think, brian, you probably have your own, uh, your own take on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think. Yeah, I think it's the book's published through Good Book and so you can pick it up through them. Uh, we were hashing out the details of this, but I think I'd go ahead and announce this by the. By the time this will will probably release Ronnie. I will be in um in Oxford, england, doing an event called the Unhurried Pastor. So, england doing an event called the Unhurried Pastor. So we're going to be starting to do pastoral events around this topic and Ronnie and I will be there. Sometimes we're going to bring a couple of friends in to come be a part of it. It's like a one-day event and that Oxford event in, I believe, july the 4th is when we're looking at doing that. So then we're looking to do some other events in the States and just around, but that'll be the first one. So we don't have any announcements as far as what that will be, but we know those will be in the works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it sounds great. I'll make sure and have show notes so people can learn. And really, again, thank you for both of you putting the work that you put into the book, but being willing to share and hold out a model. I think we just desperately need more models of what an unhurried pastor's life could look like, and the book certainly does that in your work as well. So I'm grateful for it and my prayers and blessings will be upon the book. I'm happy to share it and recommend it, and we'll get you back on. Look forward to future projects as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother. Hey, good to talk to you.
Speaker 1:As always, you can find show notes for today's episode by going to pastorwritercom. I've got a link there to the book that we've been discussing in today's episode, the Unhurried Pastor. And also, while you're doing it, maybe you'd consider leaving a brief review for the podcast. You could also just click a star rating, and if you haven't had a chance, I've been asking readers who finished the Five Masculine Instincts if they might be willing to do the same. Wherever you purchase that book probably Amazon you can just click one of the stars, leave a rating or type a short review out. That feedback is really helpful to help me continue improving the podcast, but also my writing as well. As always, thanks for listening, until next time.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you.