Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
Pastor Writer: Conversations on Reading, Writing, and the Christian Life
Patrick Schreiner — What to Make of the Transfiguration
Patrick Schreiner is an associate professor of New Testament and Biblical theology at Midwestern baptist Theological Seminary. He is also an elder at Emmaus Church in Kansas City, Missouri. He is the author numerous books, including Matthew, Discipels and Scribe; a commentary on Acts, The Ascension of Christ; and The Kigndom of God and the Glory of the Cross.
Patrick joins me on today's episode to discuss his new book, The Transfiguration of Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Reading. We take a closer look at Jesus's transfiguration and why it matters for how we read the gospels and think about Christ.
You're listening to episode 220 of the Pastor Writer Podcast conversations on reading, writing and the Christian life. I'm your host, chase Replogle. It's a privilege to have Patrick Schreiner back on the podcast. Patrick is one of my favorite writers when it comes to the exploration of the New Testament. He's a great scholar, a great writer, a great conversationalist, and he has a unique ability to draw our attention to portions of the Bible that tend to be overlooked, and certainly one of those is Christ's transfiguration. We're all familiar with the story but, as Patrick points out, it rarely makes it into those core, defining moments of how we describe or think about who Jesus is. I think Patrick rightfully recognizes that it deserves more attention. We had a great conversation about that passage of scripture, a really enlightening and helpful one, and one that I think will change not only the way I read and think about the scriptures, but probably preach that passage in the future as well. Hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm joined on the podcast today by Patrick Schreiner. He's the Associate Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's also an elder at Emmaus Church in Kansas City, missouri. He's the author of numerous books, including Matthew Disciple and Scribe a commentary on Acts, the Ascension of Christ, the Kingdom of God and the Glory of the Cross, and the book that he joins me today to talk about is newest release, the Transfiguration of Christ, an exegetical and theological reading. Well, patrick, great to have you back on the podcast. You're a returning guest and really excited to be able to talk about the book.
Speaker 2:Thanks, chase, good to be here talking with you about this important event.
Speaker 1:It's also good to have another Missourian. Do you live on the Missouri side? Are you on the Kansas side?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm on the Missouri side. Are you in Missouri? I don't know where you are.
Speaker 1:I am, yeah I pastor in Springfield, Missouri, so just south of you a couple of hours. Oh, you do.
Speaker 2:Okay, we were just down there actually at a church speaking, so I wish I could have said hi.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awesome. Well, every once in a while I get up to Kansas City, so it's nice to have some Missouri authors represented on the podcast. We're few and far between, I think in the history of this show.
Speaker 1:Well, I've had you on before. I've always really enjoyed your work. I always find your work really helpful, both theologically, but I think it's also a great benefit to the church. So you manage to combine a high degree of academics but in a really understandable, relatable, beneficial to a congregation sort of way. And that's certainly the case with this new book on the Transfiguration of Christ. One of the things you say very early in the book is that the Western church has largely overlooked the Transfiguration. I think that's a good place to start. Why is it that the Transfiguration perhaps has not been central to our conversations and what drew you to the topic specifically?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you look through the history of the Christian tradition, it's the Eastern Orthodox that have really written a lot on the Transfiguration. The early church East and West actually wrote a lot on the Transfiguration, but in the Western, especially the Protestant tradition, there just hasn't been much written on it and some of that is just maybe our own emphases. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is an event that I think is hugely important and so I wanted to do a little bit more work on it. And so a few reasons why we might neglect it is it is a mysterious and symbolic event. If you look at it, it's the scene where the visual nature of it is emphasized, and I think for Protestants sometimes that makes us a little nervous, and even in the Eastern Orthodox tradition it's been used to advocate for icon veneration or things of that nature, and so I think Protestants, maybe when we come to it we feel a little unsure of what to do with the symbolic, visual nature of it, and so it also feels kind of otherworldly. And so in scholarship, if you kind of look through gospel scholarship in the last 50, 60, maybe 100 years, the emphasis has been on the historical Jesus, and so this event doesn't fit very well with a historical Jesus viewpoint. That's more for scholarship. But if you, I even remember flipping through NT Wright's I think it was Jesus and the Victory of God which I find it to be a really helpful book. But if you look for comments on the Transfiguration, that book, you basically don't have any, because nt right is, uh, in many ways he's speaking as a historian, he's writing almost to a different crowd than maybe evangelical crowd, and so again, for all, for numerous reasons, we just might not feel like we know what to do with this narrative.
Speaker 2:The other piece about it is we don't, we don't know, um always, what to do with it in terms of, like the gospel storyline. So we're very focused on how are we saved? What does that look like? What pieces need to be in place?
Speaker 2:So when we talk about the important events in Jesus's life okay, he was born, he was incarnate. He was born, he lived his life, he died a death and then he rose from the dead, and that's basically all we said the transfiguration doesn't feel like maybe it fits into that story all that well and it sits a little out of place. It's like a preview of what is to come. And so because of that, we just kind of skip over it. I've said a few times now in different podcasts, but if you were to ask someone to give a 10-minute summary of Jesus's life, I wonder. I doubt that the Transfiguration would make it even in a 10-minute summary, definitely not in a one-minute summary. But it's one of these events that seems to speak so much truth in terms of who Christ is, in terms of our own future, and so my goal really was just to get the church to look back at this event and hopefully grow and be encouraged by seeing it grow and be encouraged by seeing it.
Speaker 1:That strikes me as really true. I was thinking about perhaps how I would even sort of address a summary of Christ and just trying to ask myself honestly does the transfiguration immediately come to the forefront for me? I mean, obviously we have this birth story, we have the baptism of Jesus, the temptation of Jesus, and then I think it is pretty easy to just say the miracles of Jesus, and then you're into the Passion Week, jesus' death and resurrection and ascensions. It really doesn't seem like it's at the forefront of our image of Christ. In the book you also quote a commentator that says that the transfiguration for commentators is both paradise and despair. What have you found difficult about working on this project, trying to explore this area of the transfiguration?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when he says it's paradise and despair, I think he's noting that it is such a rich text but that at the same time, it's confusing so many commentators as you look at what they say about it, or even preachers it's unclear what to do with this narrative. In other words, what's the point of this narrative? Why does it happen at this point in the storyline and what is it pointing to? And what is the point of Jesus going up on this mountain and becoming this bright and shining figure and then to not continue to be like that but actually come down the mountain and still exist as a human being, no longer bright and shiny, and so it is something that's so rich. Like that often can confuse us, and so for me, it was just man, it's so helpful to sit down and spend a lot of time thinking with the church fathers, with others who have written on this event, and just really having conversations with people throughout church history on the importance of this event and what it's telling us, and I I felt like, as I wrote the book, man, I was just scratching the surface.
Speaker 2:This book could have been much longer. In each section I thought, oh, this could be a whole book, this could be a whole book. That's I know how authors often feel, but it wasn't that I didn't have enough to say. I had way too much to say and I just wanted to keep it short so people could read it. But I really want to encourage people to continue to think about this event and I'd love to see even more writing on this event.
Speaker 1:In your study. How do you see the gospel writers using the transfiguration within the gospel narratives, particularly the synoptics? But for them, I mean, you're sort of making the case that perhaps it's a more important event than sometimes we've made it. Do you see that in how the gospel writers are using the event within the narratives?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if you look at the context, it's only told, the narrative's only told, in Matthew, mark and Luke. It's not told in a narrative form in John, although I do think it is in John in images. And so if you look at these three what we call synoptic gospels, it actually is interesting. And so if you look at these three what we call synoptic gospels, it actually is interesting.
Speaker 2:I have a little chart in the book, but it occurs in the same place in every single gospel, not in the same chapter, but in terms of the narrative movement. And so right before this is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah, and Matthew, mark and Luke. Then there's the passion prediction from Jesus, and then Jesus says take up your cross and follow me, and then, right after that, is the transfiguration. And so I think it's hugely important that this narrative is placed in the same spot, because that's actually, if you look at the gospels carefully, that's not always true. A lot of times they do things a little more thematically or topically and so they'll move around different stories. If you'll compare the different gospels, they'll actually move some things for their own purposes. Again, it's not that it's bad storytelling. It's actually good storytelling to move a narrative and try to emphasize a certain point, but the transfiguration interestingly it kind of stuck in their minds of this movement needs to be represented, because I do think it speaks of what's the point of this narrative.
Speaker 2:And so I think, going back especially to Peter's confession, when Peter confesses at Caesarea, philippi that Jesus is the Messiah, the next narrative is that Jesus says, yes, but I'm going to die. And Peter is very bothered by that. And so the transfiguration is actually coming on the back end of that. Because they understand, okay, he's the Messiah. But now they're confused again because he's going to go through suffering and death. He says he's going to be delivered over to the chief priests and to the Jewish leaders. And so the transfiguration narrative it comes in and it helps us to understand and it shows these disciples that really suffering is not the end of the road. And so, although they're despairing because they're like how can this be? How can he be the Messiah and die, this was the. I mean Paul talks about this as the stumbling block for Jews. Right, this is the stumbling block for them. But the transfiguration, in the transfiguration he shows these three disciples who are especially going to be involved in his death. That suffering and death and darkness is not the end of the story. Rather, it's going to lead to glory, to light, to glorification and hope and all these things. So, ultimately, I say this narrative is about hope by revelation, and so it's giving the disciples hope that glory is to come, but it must come through the cross.
Speaker 2:Now, even stepping back further, I argue in this narrative that you can also compare this to Peter's confession, in that when Peter confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, he probably at this point doesn't completely understand all the Trinitarian nuances of Jesus being the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. I think the transfiguration is showing the disciples yes, future glory is coming, but it's ultimately with the images that are used, based on the glory that Jesus has had from the beginning of time. And so the transfiguration narrative is actually doubling down on the identity of Jesus and saying, yes, he is the Jewish Messiah, yes, he is this new David and this new Moses, yes, he's coming to fulfill all your hopes, but he's actually God himself as well, and so he's the God man, as Christians have confessed throughout the centuries. And so I don't think the disciples at that point understood that. I don't think they understood what was happening, because Jesus says, hey, don't tell anyone about this until after the resurrection.
Speaker 2:I think it's post-resurrection that they're starting to put the pieces together. Oh, we saw him on the mountain, that's right. He appeared like God in light and he was on a mountain. And so he's more than just the Messiah, he's truly the son of God. And so they come to a greater understanding of that.
Speaker 2:But the transfiguration narrative sits there and it's supposed to give them hope. But in one sense it gives them hope after everything has really come together for them, after that resurrection event. And so I like to say the most important question that you can ask yourself is who is Jesus? And really the transfiguration narrative agrees with the Chalcedonian Creed saying he's truly God and truly man. These two natures are not confused, they're indivisible, inseparable and distinct, but they're not taken away by this union. So you have the union of the two natures in one person, and the transfiguration narrative is just such an important event that shows us that, and that's why you have a bunch of the early church fathers talking about it, and probably why we don't talk about it as much either, because Christology is hard to talk about and it's hard to understand, but this is one narrative that gives us a nice little picture of who Jesus is.
Speaker 1:You made the connection to resurrection and we're recording this just after Easter week and it often, as I'm preaching at Easter, I'm reminded of how little detail we have of the resurrection moment. We certainly get Christ appearing post-resurrection, the ascension, but, as all of our church plays have put on in the past, there's always the moment when the stone is rolled away and the light is glowing out of the tomb.
Speaker 1:That's right we don't really get that recorded. We don't get that moment of sort of power and light resurrection recorded in the gospels and you point out that much of that image is actually here in the transfiguration, not so much in the resurrection. I'd love to hear you explore that because it really when I read it in the book I thought, man, there's something interesting and true about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you know, when we read the resurrection accounts, as you just said, you get the perspective of the disciples rightly coming to the tomb, because when you think about it actually in terms of like a narrative event, there's no one in the tomb of Jesus to report this right. So we always, as like preachers and Christians, we like to think like I wonder what that moment was like Jesus lying in this tomb.
Speaker 1:Well, he doesn't stick around right Like in Luke, he's off to meet guys on the road. That's right. I mean you don't get him waiting.
Speaker 2:Right Breath must come into his body. His heart starts beating again, right Blood starts to flow, his brain, like everything kind of turns back on in terms of his body. But there's no one there. It's not like Peter's sitting there, being like, oh, it's happening right now. Look at this, this guy is coming alive. They come after the fact when the clothes are folded and he's out of the tomb and the angels announce, hey, he's not here anymore. I mean, there's that famous line he's not here.
Speaker 2:And so we don't have any account of like what that looked like. But the transfiguration it does give us that picture of. Okay, what is this glory? How can we symbolize that glory? Or what does that look like? And the transfiguration narrative many people have argued it's a preview of Jesus's glorified body, and so really it is pitching forward beforehand, before Christ is raised from the dead, saying this is the glory he's always possessed and this is the glory that he will receive at the resurrection. And so that imagery of light. And you think of the angels that come down at the tomb. They're described with what? White clothes and bright, shining light. This is how heavenly messengers are always described, because they're heavenly beings and in the same way, jesus is a heavenly being.
Speaker 2:So I like to link the transfiguration both to the resurrection but also to the ascension and the return of Jesus. Because when you think about the rest of the New Testament, when Jesus appears to people, how does he appear? Well, you think of how he appears to Paul on the Damascus road, saul or Paul on the Damascus road. He appears as a bright light. When he appears to Stephen, it doesn't say so much a bright light, but you can see that he's staring into the heavens. There's the sense of light there. And then you think of John at the beginning of Revelation. Again there's all this brightness and fire and so forth and so on. And then you think of 1 and 2 Thessalonians. When Christ returns, it seems like there's brightness in the imagery of him returning.
Speaker 2:So again, the transfiguration becomes this kind of preview of what is to come. And that's actually exactly how Peter speaks of it. He speaks of the transfiguration as confirming that Christ will return in 2 Peter 1, verse 16. He says we were with him on that holy mountain, so we know he's coming back. People were doubting and I think Christians who exist now. They probably wonder hey, I believe this, but at the same time, it's been 2000 years. Is Jesus really going to come back? And Peter uses the transfiguration narrative to say look, I was with him on that mountain. I saw him be transfigured. Therefore, I know that he is going to return and this is what he's going to look like when he returns. And so it is supposed to be this narrative, just of ultimate hope that death does not have the final word. And, as we celebrated on Easter, death has been defeated and so light and glory is to come, not only for Jesus, but to those who are in Christ.
Speaker 1:One of the other connections that I think you made really helpful and clear is that if you just have resurrection and ascension after Jesus' death, perhaps there's a way you read in Christ's identity that this is somehow a reward right, that the glory has come because of his obedience to death, but because you get this moment of glorification which he certainly is obedient to death, but because you get this moment of glorification beforehand, you do get a sense that there is something eternal about Christ and who he is and that he is fully God, even here, prior to the death and resurrection story. And the way you talk about that in the book too, is you read in the images of the transfiguration the theme of sonship, that you think original gospel writers and readers would have gotten a sense of the sonship emerging from these images of transfiguration. How is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when the voice comes from the heavens, he says this is my beloved son. If you remember the narrative, there's actually Moses and Elijah who are flanking him, and so the father's voice that's what Peter says it's the father's voice that actually comes out of the cloud. It declares this is my beloved son. Again, we talked about the narrative right before this when Peter confesses Jesus is the Messiah and I think that's true, jesus is the Messiah, but it's interesting that the father's voice says this is my son.
Speaker 2:Now there's two different ways to read sonship texts in the New Testament, and I think this is often missed in terms of studying the scriptures. It is true that sonship texts, when it speaks of Jesus being the son of God, that could just mean that he's God's representative, he's the king. We think of a text like Psalm 2, where it speaks of the Davidic king as a type of son of God. So in the ancient Near East in the first century, to be a king was to be a type of a son of God. So we can certainly read that in what we'd call a more human way that he is this Davidic king. So to call him this is my beloved son. The father's voice might just be saying this is my chosen representative, davidic king, who is coming to save you from your sins, but, as you noted, he's actually showing them the glory is already his before he goes through this obedience, this suffering and death. And so when the father's voice says this is my beloved Son, it matches obviously what he says at the baptism. It's the exact same words at the baptism. But when he says that, I think we need to double click on those words and say wait. To say he is his beloved Son is to say that he is a divine being, actually one with the Father, the second person of the Trinity, the eternally begotten one. And so the church tradition has always affirmed this.
Speaker 2:And as we read the scriptures, I think we tend to read this sonship language in one way or the other, and so sometimes certain texts will say, oh, this is more about his humanity, and other texts this is more about his divinity. And I want to say, in the transfiguration it seems like both of them come together. And that's really helpful because often, sonship language, both of them are coming together because that's precisely what we confess about Christ that there's two natures and one person, and we see that in the transfiguration. So then, if you go back and read the rest of the narrative, you think of the imagery of him ascending this mountain, and at the top of this mountain it's the disciples that see this bright light. And you start to think, hmm, have I heard stories like that in the Old Testament?
Speaker 2:And you start thinking of major stories like Mount Sinai, where Moses ascends the mountain and he sees what he sees, something of God, yahweh himself, on the top of that mountain. And how does Yahweh appear? He appears in fire and in smoke. So there's kind of this bright light, but at the same time there's smoke and there's darkness. And so I think in the old covenant there's a sense of revelation, but there's also a sense of hiddenness. And here in the new covenant, I think there's more of an emphasis upon the light, but there's still that cloud, because it's God and we are creatures and we have to have that sense of he's indescribable and we can't fully comprehend him. But there's more light now.
Speaker 2:And so, as Moses ascended the mountain to see Yahweh, now the disciples ascend the mountain, and who do they see? They see Yahweh in the person of Jesus Christ, and I spent a lot of time actually talking about how it was Moses himself who actually said let me see the face of God. This is Exodus 33. He had seen something of Yahweh on Mount Sinai and he wanted more. And I think it's appropriate for him to want more.
Speaker 2:Once you've seen an aspect of glory, you want to see more of that glory. And Yahweh actually tells him no, you can't see my face because if you see my face you will die. And so he hides him in the cleft of the rock and he says I will let my basically my back, come before you, but I will even put my hand over your eyes so you can't see too much because it'll be too much glory for you. So Moses gets to see something of God, but he doesn't see the full picture, and what we ultimately see is Moses, because he's on that mountain, moses and Elijah on that mountain with Jesus. They finally do see Yahweh in the face of Jesus Christ, and so it really is fulfilling these narratives that came before it. And if you start to just look at some of these images, it confirms Jesus is, yes, the Messiah, but he's even more than the Messiah he's the eternally begotten son.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting to also think about the disciples, particularly Peter's reaction to this scene. You do have this great moment in which this identity of Christ is revealed and you have, I think, Peter making the connection, even seeming to understand some of this. He's wanting to sort of build tents and just to stay there, but ultimately it seems as if Peter has misunderstood something, or at least that Jesus does not seem to go along with Peter's plan. How do you read Peter's response and then Jesus' response to Peter in this situation? How?
Speaker 2:do you read Peter's response and then Jesus' response to Peter in this situation? Yeah, in all the Gospels, peter, you know it's pretty typical of Peter to respond and be the first one to speak, and often Peter doesn't say what he needs to. Again, just in the narrative before, it's Jesus who has said to Peter get behind me, satan. But here Peter sees this glorious moment and he says it is good that we are here, which is actually right. It is good that we are here, which is actually right. It is good that they are here. I think that actually alludes back to the Genesis narrative. This is very good, thinking of how God created all things, and it was through the Son that he created all things. And so I think Peter's saying it's good that we're here. And then he requests if you wish, I will make three tents here one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah, and Matthew doesn't say this, but I think it's Mark who says he didn't know what to say, for he was frightened. So, in other words, the gospel seemed to affirm he's not entirely sure what to do with this glorious scene. So the next part of the narrative, though, is that it seems that the voice somewhat interrupts Peter and says no, don't make tense, this is my beloved son. And so what is it?
Speaker 2:I think that an interesting question to ask about this narrative is what is it about Peter's statement that is mistaken, and I would just point to two things. Number one he wants to make tense, and I think there's a problem there. The problem there is he's trying to prolong this glory and it's not time to do that yet. So, in other words, peter is very upset about the suffering nature of the Messiah, that the Messiah is going to go to the cross, and so when he sees Christ in glory, he says all right, let's make tents here and let's prolong this glory. And I think the voice from the heaven says no, this is my beloved son, and I think it's alluding to certain texts like Genesis 22,. Two, with the sacrifice of Isaac Also, he says, with whom I'm well pleased, which alert alludes to the servant song in Isaiah. And so by saying this is my beloved son, I think the voice is saying this is the suffering son. So, yes, glory is to come, but it's going to come through suffering, not in an absence of suffering. So the tense aren't going to work here, because we can't prolong this. And then the other problem was he has to make three tense.
Speaker 2:And so to make three tense, I think, is to put Jesus, moses and Elijah on the same plane. In other words, they're equals, and I think the father's voice responds to that also with this is my beloved son. In other words, they are servants, but this is my son. And if you read Hebrews 3 and 4, that's exactly the logic. Moses had great glory, but he was only a servant, he wasn't the son, and so the son is worthy of more glory. And so, I think, peter, as a good Jewish man, he looks at Moses and Elijah and he looks at Jesus and he goes oh, these are the three most important figures in our whole tradition. In one sense, right. But the father says no, no, no, there's a different level that the son is at, which, again, I think, points to his divine sonship that Jesus is the eternally begotten son, he's the beloved son, he's the one to whom Moses and Elijah ultimately point, and so you can't put them in the same three tents. Rather, jesus is unique and he must be held up as unique.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems true that typical Peter has sort of well and I think there's some sympathy for even our own reading like he's struggling to fully understand all that this image is and then disconnecting it from the mission to which Christ has come, that Christ isn't just this image on display, he's there for his obedience, for his suffering, for the things that are to come.
Speaker 1:But Peter sort of just understandably so I think just wants to hold on to the image, just wants a good thing to continue being with Christ, but still, as he had in those previous conversations, still not fully understanding the things for which Christ had come to do. That's right, that's right. One of the things you write about in the book is your own approach to trying to combine the storyline and the dogmatics. And the Transfiguration is an interesting place to sort of wrestle between the biblical, theological themes, the narratives themselves, the sort of dogmatic theology or even church history. All of those things sort of meet in this particular moment or image. How is it you tried to do that and how did it even impact the structure of the book?
Speaker 2:image. How is it you tried to do that and how did it even impact the structure of the book? Yeah, one of the problems that I saw with how at least modern commentators have talked about the transfiguration is they haven't used these kind of dogmatic or systematic theology categories to help enlighten this narrative. And so often as we read the Bible we're taught just read what's there and learn kind of the ancient history, learn the background, learn the grammar, learn the syntax, and there's much good in that. But sometimes we view systematic theology or these systems as things that are kind of blocking our view of what's happening, rather than providing resources to unveil what is ultimately happening. So I view systematic theology systems, ways of thinking, even what I would call just help from church history, as a way of guiding us in a helpful way. And so the transfiguration, I think, is difficult to interpret if you're not employing certain what I'd call hermeneutical. I use hermeneutical rules, trinitarian grammar or rules, and then Christological grammar or rules at the same time, and so there's many. I mean we've talked a lot about Christology, but I think it's important when we see here's another example to how you can use systematic theology to help us understand this moment when you see the light in the transfiguration scene you want to think in terms of okay, why is it important that there's light shining here? Now, certainly, light points to glory, it points to revelation. But we also have in 1 John, 1.5, john the same John who was on the mountain says God is light in himself. And so in some sense this light is pointing to the godness of Jesus. But at the same time we also have throughout the scriptures that the light of the Father, the Son and the Spirit are correlated, but at the same time they're distinguished, because there's one essence but there's three persons. And so God shines forth his light through the Son and through the Spirit.
Speaker 2:And interestingly, in the Transfiguration narrative of I think it's Matthew, he calls it a bright cloud overshadows them, and so you have light from Jesus's clothes and his face and this kind of white imagery, but then you also have this bright cloud that comes, and so this is matching historically how Christians have spoken of the unity but the distinction between the persons of the Trinity. So it's the Father who has sent the Son and it's the Father and Son who have sent the Spirit, and so in one sense the transfiguration narrative becomes this picture. I think the cloud is representative of the Spirit. The transfiguration becomes this picture of God is light. Therefore, jesus shines as light. God the Father speaks from the heavens and it's the Son who shines as light. God the Father speaks from the heavens and it's the Son who shines with light. And then it's the cloud that overshadows them and it's the Spirit who illumines our hearts to see who God is. And actually, if you trace that through the narrative scriptures, even in the New Testament Paul speaks of our hearts being illumined by the Spirit to see the light of Christ. And so that's precisely how they're using these categories. They're actually viewing this scene in a Trinitarian way. And so, rather than saying okay, that's forcing, like later theology upon this text, I think using that grammar that the Christian tradition has used throughout church history to enlighten the text is actually a helpful way of reading it, because then you can see, oh, this is matching what Christians have confessed about God the Father, god the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:And so often when we speak of the Trinity, it's difficult for Christians because it's like, okay, what text do we go to to prove the Trinity? Well, we have in the Great Commission. You baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We also go to the baptism sometimes, where it seems you have the Father's voice, the Son and then the Holy Spirit descending. But here's another text that very few people speak of. We have the Father's voice, we have the Son and I think we have the cloud as representative of the Holy Spirit. The cloud is representative of the Holy Spirit. Again, I haven't given the argument for that, but I would just say that almost everyone throughout church history that I read, viewed the cloud as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, because in the Old Testament the cloud was representative of the Spirit, and this language of overshadowing matches in Luke how the Spirit overshadows Mary herself when she becomes pregnant with Jesus.
Speaker 2:And so here we have a picture of the triune God, and it's using those dogmatic categories to help us understand this narrative. And I would say the same thing. I'm not going to go on and on about this, but about our Christological categories. The only way that you can understand that Jesus in this scene is truly God and truly man is to kind of have those categories of okay, he's begotten before time and he's begotten in time, and that this narrative is speaking to both of those, if you have those categories in your mind already as you begin to read, then actually this narrative kind of jumps off the page and you're like, oh, here it all is, it's all in this narrative. But if you're reading it without those categories, I think sometimes those things are hard to see.
Speaker 1:In the preface to the book. One of the first things you do is you bring up we've been using the language of transfiguration, which I think is common, but you bring up the Greek, the English, metamorphosis and you write. It's just in one of the beginning paragraphs in this book. I will attempt to recover this religious use of metamorphosis. For Christians, metamorphosis refers both to the physical unveiling of Jesus on the mountain and to the change that progressively occurs in Christians. I think one of the questions that, over and over throughout the book, keeps coming up and you keep sort of adding to, is what then does this mean for us today, for those of us who are following Christ, who consider ourselves his disciples, what, when we come across this image of the transfiguration? How does it change us? How does it shape us as Jesus' followers today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you pointed out this term metamorphosis, which is where we get transfiguration, and it only occurs four times in the whole New Testament Matthew 17, mark 9, romans 12, and 2 Corinthians 3. Now, interestingly, in your English Bible what you're going to get in Matthew and Mark is this word is going to be translated as transfigured, but in Romans 12.2 and 2 Corinthians 3.18, it's actually translated as transformed, but it's the same Greek word. So you think of Romans 12.2 where it says don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed, metamorphosis by the renewal of your mind. So you could actually translate that, but be transfigured by the renewal of your mind. And then in second Corinthians 318, it's the same type of idea, actually, paul's meditating upon Moses as a sent up Mount Sinai. He says and we all with unveiled faces are beholding the glory of the Lord, are being metamorphosis, right, transformed or transfigured into the same image, from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord, who is spirit. Again, that's 2 Corinthians 3.18. So what you can see here is two times this word is used. It's applied to Jesus and then twice in the New Testament, if we just go by the word.
Speaker 2:I think we should use the images and glory as well, but twice, just if we stick with the word. It's applied to us as Christians that we are called to be transfigured by the renewing of our minds and that we will be transfigured from one degree of glory to the next. In other words, the transfiguration narrative is not just about Jesus, it's actually about all those who are in Christ as well. And so ultimately in this narrative, jesus has said to the disciples you must take up your cross and follow me. You must go to your own cross, you must go into the valley, you must go into the darkness, and as you go into the darkness, remember that there is transfiguration on the other side of this darkness. So ultimately, the New Testament is pointing us to Jesus and saying his transfiguration is our transfiguration.
Speaker 2:So again, 2 Corinthians 3.18 is so important. There, as we behold the Lord with unveiled faces, unlike Moses, then we are transfigured into the same image. What's the same image? The same image is God, from one degree of glory to another. So God is actually sharing his glory with us and he's giving us an aspect of his glory, which is why, in the new heavens and new earth that talks about us in revelation, it says we're given white robes, right, it says that there's going to be no need for the sun, because Christ will be the sun, but we will also shine like him. So ultimately, I think this is a picture, the transfiguration is a picture of our sanctification, our glorification, what is to come, not just for Jesus but for us. And this is for me, man.
Speaker 2:It helped me put the whole Bible together again, because you think of texts like in the Romans wrote. In Romans 3, it says for we all fell short of the glory of God, and what that means is we traded, according to Paul, we traded the glory of God for things of lesser glory. But ultimately, salvation is about us recovering that glory, being glorified as we are in Christ. And so the rest of the scriptures will talk about us being transfigured or transformed into his image as we behold him. When we see him, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. So there's something about beholding him in all of his glory, that then that glory penetrates us and makes us glorious beings, and this is why, in Peter's epistles he talks about we become partakers of the divine nature.
Speaker 2:A lot of people stumble over that. What does that mean? It doesn't mean we become exactly like God, but that he shares something of himself with us. We become immortal like him, we become glorified like him. So practically this is all just biblical theology, but practically I think this helps us because as we are going through our own suffering, as we are going taking up our own crosses, we can remember that glory is coming for us, and that's something Christians have always said. But to see it through this image, I think just puts if I can use the word light, new light upon it, and I think it encourages us all the more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it helps us avoid the temptation to despair on one hand, but also the temptation I mean I think what Peter is wrestling with is not wanting to give this up for the difficulties that lie ahead. But certainly part of what our calling is is obedience through this time right Even as we don't quite fully see yet. To still follow, to still trust and know that that glorification is coming is a real sense of hope, even in the midst of those times where there may be uncertainty.
Speaker 2:That's right, and I was just talking to someone about this near Good Friday and he was asking what is the relationship of the transfiguration to Good Friday? And if you actually look at those two narratives, it's really interesting. Both of them take place on a high place. Both of them have two figures flanking. One's a scene of darkness, one's a scene of light. Both of them speak of his clothes, but Jesus' clothes are stripped from him at the cross. They shine with brightness. In both of them there's kind of a divine cry or a voice. Right, jesus himself cries out on the cross and then the Father's voice cries out from the heavens upon the sun. So there's all these parallels, but it's almost like they're opposite parallels, but in a unique way. Actually, what's happening? The transfiguration?
Speaker 2:John speaks of the uh, jesus's death, actually as a lifting up and a glorification of jesus, and so what happens is the cross itself, as a symbol of death, is transfigured into a symbol of life, which is why we have them at the top of our churches and around our necks, right.
Speaker 2:It's actually a symbol of execution, but Christians have now seen, rightly so, in the cross a sign of life, and so I love this, because what the transfiguration shows us is that Jesus takes on death and he actually reverses death. He puts death to death and he uses death against death itself, and thereby he transforms or transfigures the image of death into one of life. So all of that simply means we must walk through the reality of death, I would say that, both physically and spiritually, in order to gain life. And I think like day to day. What does that mean? It means repentance, laying your life down, serving other people. That's you dying to yourself. And Jesus says, as you do, that, you actually encounter life, and I think you know the more you do that, the more you actually experience life in the here and now as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, the book we're talking about, the Transfiguration of Christ, an exegetical and theological reading. Really, what a great conversation. The book is really accessible but deep, I think, as you described it too, like, hopefully, what it will do for readers is just pique their interest to keep reading and thinking more deeply about the transfiguration. We do have a lot of writers that listen to the podcast and I was curious do you remember the moment where you decided okay, I think I'm going to take on this question of the transfiguration, and what does that process look like for you when it comes to trying to get your arms around a topic that you think is turning into a book, the thinking, the researching? Is there a way of sort of describing what that process looks like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first time I thought I wanted to do it was actually I was teaching on Matthew and I came to Matthew 17 and I was preparing for it and I just thought, man, I love this scene and I was looking around I couldn't find anything on it and I thought I want to do something on this. I think this would be fun.
Speaker 1:So I think you said at one point in the book that there were at the seminary there where you teach. There were like three books on the shelf about transfiguration. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Very few books, and so I just became very interested myself and then I started reading some resources on it.
Speaker 2:When I did find more resources because there are more, we just they're a little more difficult to find, honestly and then what typically happens is I'm just thinking about the narrative and probably when I'm showering or something, I think of an outline, and then I jotted it down and then I just go to work and I start writing and I had an idea of what I was going to argue, but it was as I was reading others and I started noting things that they were saying and things they weren't saying.
Speaker 2:I thought, hmm, I think my argument is that yes, I agree with what you're saying, but we probably need to say more about this event and we're missing a big part of this event if we're not talking about Jesus's divine sonship. And so I always write in conversation with other people and by other people. I mean, I'm reading books and I'm conversing with them and I'm thinking with them, and so my argument kind of develops over time, and so it began with just general interest. Then I thought of an outline, then I thought, oh, I think I know what my argument is, and so it began with just general interest. Then I thought of an outline. Then I thought, oh, I think I know what my argument is, and then I kind of go through the narrative and make that argument and see if it works.
Speaker 1:Well, certainly I think it's paid off well, and it's one of the things I love about writing you can see it in other writers too when there's just a passion to understand a topic and join that conversation. And it struck me as this book is sort of in line too with the book on the Ascension, perhaps another area where maybe not a ton of thought has gone into, and so it's a really helpful way to engage this image as well, the Transfiguration, any other images, things sort of swirling around in there you're interested in or starting to wrestle with now that maybe in a couple years we'll see as a book.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, a future project. I have maybe one or two books in between, but I want to do a book on the descent of Christ. There's some two good works I know from evangelicals who have worked on that, but I think there's more to do on it, and so it would kind of become at least a trilogy of ascension, transfiguration and descent. All of them, I think, are neglected and all of them are somewhat what we could call mystical or mysterious events that we're not entirely sure what to do with. So it's kind of become a side project of mine. So I have, you know, I'm in the process of already thinking about it before writing, but I have about four outlines in my mind. I can't decide which one to do, and so I just need to when I get the chance to do it. That'll be a book that'll come forth, hopefully at some point.
Speaker 1:Well, that sounds great. I always think the mark of a great book is it gives you language for having conversations. Perhaps you just didn't have the language to discuss before, and I certainly think that's the case with the Ascension, certainly the case with this book on Transfiguration and, I'm sure, for Dissent as well. Well, patrick, always a privilege whenever I get to have you on, and again, thank you for the work. I know it's a resource not just for academics but for the whole church.
Speaker 2:That comes through really clear in your writing and as a pastor I'm grateful for it and I know many listeners will enjoy the book as well. Thanks so much, chase. Great talking to you again.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to the Pastor Writer Podcast, as always. You can find show notes for today's episode by going to pastorwritercom. I have a link to Patrick's book there, as well as his others. And while you're listening to the show, maybe you'd take a moment to leave a review. You can do that wherever you listen to podcasts, by clicking one of the star ratings or taking a moment to type out a brief message. That's always helpful feedback and helps me continue to make improvements on the show. As always, thanks for listening, until next time, thank you, thank you.