Life, Cancer, Etc.
Life, Cancer, Etc.
Talking about Anxiety with Sharon Dunbar, LCSW
Sharon Dunbar, LCSW, is a therapist in private practice in Florida. In this episode, she answers the questions you submitted about anxiety and offers practical suggestions for those of us who deal with it.
https://www.yourclearview.net/anxiety-and-depression/
NOTE: I am not a medical professional. Everyone on the "Life, Cancer, Etc." podcast is sharing their own experiences, not giving medical advice.
Photo ©2020 Heidi Bragg
Keywords: anxiety, help for anxiety, coping with anxiety, strategies for anxiety, anxiety during cancer treatment, cancer-related anxiety
You can also find some episodes on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/LifeCancerEtc
I'm Heidi Bragg, and this is Life, Cancer, Etc. My goal with this podcast is to connect you with stories and resources that help you feel happier, more resilient, and less stressed, especially when you're going through hard times. So my guest this week is Sharon Dunbar. Sharon is a licensed clinical social worker in private practice, and she has very kindly agreed to talk with us about anxiety and answer some of the questions that you guys sent in via Facebook or Instagram, which there were great questions. I was really thrilled with the response. So hi, Sharon. Hi there. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:It's my pleasure.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So would you mind starting by telling a little bit about yourself and then we'll launch into these questions about anxiety?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Well, like you said, I have a private practice in Englewood and I've been doing this for about 20 years. One of my specialties is anxiety. So this is all... old school stuff for me. Um, and you know, I love the field. I married, I have a daughter and, um, who's raised and, um, well, yeah, that's basically it. I like
SPEAKER_01:that. A daughter who's raised. I love that. Cause it's like, they're still your kids, but you know, yeah, that's, I know. I always tell them you're still my child, even if you're not a child, you're my child. So
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. Always.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Okay, so let's start with just a general description of what anxiety is.
SPEAKER_00:Well, the basic definition of anxiety is a persistent fear, worry, or nervousness. And it ranges, you know, anxiety can range from just butterflies in your stomach kind of thing, you know, a little bit of excitement with a little bit of anxiety to full blown, um, almost paralysis, you know, not being able to, to do anything because of, of fear. So
SPEAKER_01:I remember, um, I had experienced the former many times in life. You know, anytime you're excited and something new is going to happen or something unknown is going to happen, you feel those butterflies in your stomach. And usually my stomach's a little upset. But then during cancer treatment, when I was, I think, I don't know how far into it it was, but I was withdrawing from benzodiazepines. I'd been prescribed during my treatment and that overwhelming, I had never felt, felt in that way that overwhelming. I can barely breathe anxiety. Like seriously, that was all I could focus on. So it's, it gave me a great empathy for people who are living with that every day. Luckily I'm not now, but man, it was just so overwhelming.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. How does, how does it, so it seems to kind of go, well, at least in my experience, it kind of went with some depression. But how would you distinguish? You've defined anxiety. How would you characterize depression? And could you describe a little bit about sometimes if you're experiencing both how those feed on each other? Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Depression is an overwhelming sadness. And there's lots of symptoms with depression. that range, you know, negative self-talk and disinterest in life, energy drains, sleeping incredible amounts, sometimes not sleeping at all, changes in diet, changes in sex drive. There's lots and lots of symptoms that go along with depression, but it's really this, that heaviness of just not wanting to take another step forward, which is very different than the feeling of anxiety. Okay. True. True.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so how do those, when you're experiencing both together, someone described it to me as you're too anxious to just sit at home and not do anything, which are too depressed to go out and do anything. And I felt like that was, I had experienced some of that. So how do those feed into each other like that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it depends. You know, it's kind of one of those things sometimes, you know, what came first, the chicken or the egg, but, um, sometimes what can happen is anxiety can be so debilitating that it leads to depression because you feel so hopeless about your situation and those kinds of hopeless thoughts can, you know, situationally, um, Possibly lead to depression, but depression also can be biochemical. So, you know, it's kind of hard to say as far as which would come first or why, but the way they feed into one another. If somebody has a difficult time with having anxiety and they start the negative self-talk about I'm weak or I'm flawed or this, that, the other thing. It certainly can spiral that whole field of going from depression to anxiety and just wrapping up like a snowball.
SPEAKER_01:That's great. Thank you. And that makes a lot of sense. So these are all questions from listeners. why does anxiety sometimes come out as grouchiness instead of tears or fearfulness?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's a really good question. So the mechanism that happens in the brain, and this is what produces anxiety, is that the fight or flight response, which is initiated by the amygdala, gets triggered. And it gets triggered because there's a perceived threat. Now, it may or may not be real. And sometimes folks aren't even aware of it because memory is also involved in this activation of the amygdala. So when that happens, what they call the fight or flight response gets ignited and It's kind of in the whole term of fight or flight. So if you're in fight mode, it's going to come out as aggression. If you're in flight mode, it's going to come out in a much smaller, passive way, trying to get away
SPEAKER_01:from. Okay, that makes sense. But I never really thought of... I never really thought of the anxiety triggering a fight or flight response. Like there's those being too, I mean, it makes complete sense now that you're saying it, but I don't know why that's, that never occurred to me that that's what was happening.
SPEAKER_00:And it was the fight
SPEAKER_01:response.
SPEAKER_00:It is. And I think that that, you know, is a big, a big takeaway for folks is that, you know, especially for folks who have that internal dialogue of, you know, there's something wrong with me. I'm flawed. I, you know, I, you know, everybody else can handle stuff and I can't kind of stuff. That's not what's happening. That's not what anxiety is. Anxiety is a normal response to a threat. But what happens is our bodies go into a mode of survival, but we don't have to do anything because there's really not an imminent threat. So we don't do anything. And all of the responses, the autonomic responses in our body take over and feel, they don't feel so great, you know? And yeah, so-
SPEAKER_01:All those, I'm just thinking about all those, you know, it's the, it's the same as if like I was in the woods and a bear came across my path, like all the hormones and the chemicals that you would expect to be flowing through your body. And it's true what you just said. I don't know why that resonated so much, but you're sitting there with nothing to do, but your body is so ramped up. Right, right. Yeah, that's a horrible feeling. Okay. The next question is, how does institutionalized and or self-imposed shame breed anxiety? How much is too much?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I guess we kind of just said that. So what happens if somebody has shame, if somebody has got that internal dialogue of there's something wrong, flawed in me because I have, and that's the reason why I have anxiety. It tends to, you know, people tend to keep it hidden. They stop seeking help. They try and instead of accepting what is, they try and make it not happen, which uses an awful lot of energy and creates more stress and makes it even more difficult to calm down.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I identify with that one because at one point during my process of healing, I was saying to someone, to a therapist, I don't like feeling anxious like this. And the response was, yeah, and? It's like you've got to feel the feeling, and by trying to stuff that feeling down, you're making yourself more anxious, and that was absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, this one is, can choices wire the brain to get more anxious or stay anxious longer, kind of like negativity or complaining does, sort of like remapping the pathways? Because I know you can do that in a positive direction, but does the neuroplasticity apply there? that way as well, I
SPEAKER_00:guess. Well, like I said before, anxiety is a very complex response from the brain and it uses several different areas of the brain. One of them is memory. And it's all about survival. It's all about keeping the mechanism or organism from perishing. So So in order to do that, it pulls from different parts of the brain in an automatic way so that we can survive. And so some of the things that happen is that when we build stress on top of stress, on top of stress, on top of stress, it becomes distress when we don't have an avenue to survive. Thank you. Yeah. Some of that. Right. And so it keeps building and building and building. And so so absolutely, we can form habits, do things that will create more stress. And, you know, eventually feed into the anxiety. So yeah, absolutely. Habits can definitely do that. So we can talk about some of the things that would be good to do to reduce stress loads. Okay. I'm sure you're going to ask me that at some point. So
SPEAKER_01:yeah, there were some questions later down. So if you don't mind holding that a little bit, we'll talk about that. Oh, well, here's another one. How can you move past and conquer fears that have controlled you for most of your life? Well, there you go. Just, just led right into that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And really, if there's, if, if anxiety and fears are debilitating to the point where they're haunting you, sometimes they haunt people in their wake and sleep. And if it's getting to that point, I would definitely, you know, say that it would be a great idea to seek some help, you know, to go ahead and get some therapy and, and get the strategies that you need to deal with the anxiety as well as, you know, if there's trauma involved to get the trauma healed so that that doesn't keep getting triggered and add to the stress load.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's, I always, the way we talk about therapy in our house is tools for our toolbox. Oh, yeah. You're coming up to stuff you've never dealt with. And if I had to, you know, I don't know, do framing for a house or something, I would need specific tools to do that. And if it was the first time I'd done it, I'd have to go get those tools to be able to accomplish that task. And I think A lot of times people think of therapy as there's something wrong with me. It's like, no, you're just dealing with a situation for which you are not prepared and for which you don't have the tools.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a beautiful perspective and absolutely accurate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I mentioned on a previous podcast, when I got diagnosed, Kev said, we need to establish with a therapist now. So that, and it was before, I think it was before I started radiation after the open heart surgery, before radiation, he said, we need to establish with a therapist now, because as we encounter things along the way, and as we need, as we call them in our family, tune-ups, we've got someone in place that we already have a relationship with. And that was crucial. That was very wise. Yes. Very wise. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so what are some techniques to use when a panic attack sets in?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so the first thing I'd like to say about panic attacks is that I know that it's a very general term that we use, and we use it all the time, and a lot of times I'll even use it, but it's not a really good term because panic is panic, but it's not an attack. It's actually your body trying to Right. So that's part of it, is the mindset of what panic is. Panic is your body responding to a threat. And if there is no threat, then one of the best things to do is to just inform yourself consistently that everything is okay. There is nothing happening right now that is life-threatening. Of course, if there was something life-threatening, you'd be doing something. else, but so nothing life threatening. Um, the breath is the only part of the autonomic nervous system that we have that we can control. Everything else is, um, automatic, you know, and even the breath is, but we can control the breath. So one part of that is to be able to calm the body is to do some breath work. And so I, I, you know, Encourage people to practice this and practice this and practice this before they ever have a panic attack or panic. And before, yeah, see, it's easy. Or, you know, before they're experiencing any kind of anxiety.
SPEAKER_01:Just so
SPEAKER_00:that they're kind of used to kind of calming themselves down. Maybe
SPEAKER_01:it's
SPEAKER_00:night for
SPEAKER_01:sleep or something. Definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely, definitely. And so one of the best breaths is to count an inhale. So say you're counting to three on an inhale and exhale for five. So your exhale is always longer than your inhale. And that is. I'm doing it right now. I don't, it's funny. I wasn't, I don't know what I'm actually doing. Good. That's good. So for, for whatever reason, I can't tell you what the reason is, but that does calm. It does calm the body. So, and then one other thing is to get grounded into the moment. And so, and in order to do that, you use your senses as much as, as best as you can. So if you're experiencing panic, you know, identify what's around you. It's, you know, if there's something that you can smell, it's something that's soothing for you. Some people use lavender. Some people use lemons. You know, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, use the sense of smell. Use touch. Get your feet on the ground and feel them on the ground. And really coach yourself through and say, you know, this is an experience. My body is experiencing this right now. But this always peaks and then it dissipates. And so I just need to wait this out. The other thing that I would say is if it's safe for you to do, because people experience panic differently. So some people might experience panic. panic and everything is really shaky. And so you're not going to want to go for a run if you've got shaky legs, right?
SPEAKER_01:But
SPEAKER_00:yeah, but if you, but if you experience it in a way that you can move your body, it's a good thing to, you know, because all of that stuff, that's what it wants you to do, that it wants you to move, to get out of the way or to fight whatever is coming at you. So if you can move your body, it can help dissipate all of those symptoms.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would, um, I would for a while when I was dealing with the benzo withdrawal, I would, uh, wake up anxious.
SPEAKER_00:And so
SPEAKER_01:I just immediately go take a walk because it was almost like a car's idle. Like you rev it really high and then it kind of settles back down. And that was just functionally what I had to do to kind of make it when I woke up because otherwise it was just overwhelming and debilitating. So, um, yeah. Oh, sorry, were you going to say something else about that?
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm agreeing with you.
SPEAKER_01:The next couple of questions are kind of tied to what we talked about, how to treat the physical symptoms of anxiety and the correlation of exercise and anxiety reduction, not just in the moment, I think, but over the long term.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So the correlation with exercise and anxiety is that exercise helps to reduce stress and And it promotes sleep, which is one of the most rejuvenating things we can do. And it also ignites endorphin release, which is a feel-good hormone, right? So it's good overall. Basically, it sounds like it's doing it in
SPEAKER_01:three different ways. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:So it's reducing the stress. It's giving you the rejuvenation and rebuilding of the sleep. And then it's giving you feel-good hormones on top of it.
SPEAKER_00:Correct.
SPEAKER_01:Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:That's correct. Yeah. And really, the reason why we're experiencing so much anxiety is because we are bombarded with so much stress. And it comes from lots of different places.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I find sometimes just like... Like I don't watch the news. I read news for a variety of different sources. But sometimes when I'm really stressed, I just have to not do that because I can't take another negative hit to my stress level, so to speak.
SPEAKER_00:That's absolutely right. Yeah, that's definitely something that I would check off the list for sure.
SPEAKER_01:So beyond, and I don't know, my main symptoms of anxiety were really increased heart rate It was hard to breathe, et cetera. Besides the breath work, which affects both of those, for me, the breath work really helped kind of alleviate things and going out, being outside, taking a walk, whatever. Are there other, first part of the question is, are there other physical symptoms of anxiety people might experience? And if so, do you have any tips or tricks for alleviating those?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So for general anxiety, okay, so let's back up. I'm sorry. Let me ask the first question first. So other symptoms of anxiety, lots of them. So perspiration, a feeling of derealization where you're not with reality. It's kind of out in the distance to you. You're kind of watching a movie almost kind of feeling. Okay. Yeah. There is, of course, the increased heart rate. Some people have difficulty breathing. Some people feel tingling all over their body. Some people feel pain. There definitely are some people who experience panic who think they're having a heart attack. And I always say to folks, if you think you're having a heart attack, go to the ER. Don't assume that it's a panic attack. Because if you have more than one panic episode, you're going to know what your symptoms are and you're going to know what it feels like. And you'll be able to delineate that from a heart attack. But initially, there's no way that people can tell the difference because they can even, you know, they can have the tingling and numbness in the arm and, you know, all of those symptoms that people say are, you know, akin to a heart attack. So,
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Very uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so beyond the breath, is there anything else we haven't covered as far as ways to deal with the symptoms besides the scent, getting outside?
SPEAKER_00:Well, certainly there are preventative measures and those things are to help reduce stressors. So you can do things... like definitely reducing caffeine intake or eliminating caffeine from your diet, decreasing sugar, the exercise like we talked about, eating healthy foods, getting out in nature. We definitely need to incorporate sunlight into our daily living. That helps with sleep. It helps with sleep.
SPEAKER_01:Doesn't it do something with regulating your circadian rhythm?
SPEAKER_00:It does. Yeah, I was trying to think circadian rhythm. Thank you. Yes. Music, you know, some people are really soothed by music, prayer, meditation, breath work. Yoga is really effective for some people. And definitely, you know, staying hydrated, getting a good sleep routine. Limiting your exposure, like you said, to the news or other, you know, even social media, because people can get really riled up on social media and it can really raise, you know, your stress level. You know, talking through stressful events, talking to friends and family. planning is a really good idea for folks. A lot of times we are off the cuff a lot in our lives. And if we spent a little bit of time planning, then the deadlines don't become looming. We can make a plan and get things done in a methodical way to decrease stress. But really decreasing stress is important for our physical health it's also important for our mental health and anxiety for sure will increase the less we do to help with our stress load stress is good to get us moving but too much stress is distressing and then it becomes sickening
SPEAKER_01:yeah it becomes so overwhelming you just can't i don't know you just can't function, I guess. Yeah. do you need to go maybe to the next step?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I think that that's a good question if you're in therapy to discuss with a therapist. I also think that if you've tried and have not been successful or can't get to a point where you can try the different techniques because the anxiety is so intense, that's a good time to talk to somebody. And there are... You know, there are other medications that they can use besides benzodiazepines to help with anxiety. So those are supposed to be used on very short terms. I know some people have used them for years, but it's, you know, best to use them short
SPEAKER_01:term. And exactly to your point, when I was trying to get off the benzos, my oncologist tried what she could do with the taper schedule and it just wasn't working for me.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_01:we tried, I don't know, four times, something like that over months. And so I ended up, she suggested I see a psychiatrist who could help me titrate my dose down. And I was put on something else that I was given, got up to a therapeutic dose on that medication, got off the benzos and then was able to taper very quickly. actually pretty quickly and pretty easily off the second medication. So I know there are better things out there for long term use. But I like what you said is if you if you're to the point where you can't even try the techniques, the other techniques, that's a good signal to go talk to your therapist or talk to your doctor and get some help.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And at that point, you'll be able to, you know, if you have something on board that helps reduce it enough that you can try the other things, then you work on the other things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think sometimes when you're in it, it just feels, the whole thing feels so overwhelming. And I don't want to use the word hopeless because it wasn't hopeless, but it just seemed like getting out of it was so far off, just a slight glimmer at the end of the tunnel, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_01:that's, I think... Part of why I do this podcast in general is just to give people hope and let them know that, you know, you're not alone. Other people have done this. What you're feeling is normal given your circumstances. So you just figure out how to make the changes you need to get to a better place.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Let's see. Oh, this is a good one. How do you handle having a front row seat to someone else's anxiety and depression without letting it consume you too?
SPEAKER_00:That is a good one. And yeah, For some of us, it's really challenging, but it's boundaries. It's really boundaries. It's about knowing what's yours and what's theirs and respecting what's theirs. And when I say that, I mean that if you have the respect for another human being, that they have their journey and that they definitely have... this strength to be able to make it through their journey. Not that they don't need help and not that you can't offer help, but it's not yours. And for you to try and take it from them is trying to take part of their life, really, right? So that's how I try and keep boundaries around this, because it's very difficult, very difficult not to. The other part of that is making sure that you're taking care of your own stress levels, because if you are depleted, it's really easy to get triggered and take on somebody else's stuff. When your head space is, and everything is running on, on the right fuel, then it's easier for you to see the separation and to be more helpful. Right. Right. You can be more helpful that way for sure. No,
SPEAKER_01:that's totally true. Let's see. The next one was what thought work could you use to deescalate the anxiety train? And I think we talked a lot about that, just using your senses and Reminding yourself that this is something your body is experiencing, not who you are, you know. There was another one. There was another thought thing that you said that I wanted to reiterate and I just forgot. What did I miss?
SPEAKER_00:Just to let your mind know that there is no eminent threat, that everything is okay. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And saying that out loud, I know it sounds weird, but for me, verbalizing some of that stuff really helped.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you can hear it.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's true. Duh. It's another one of your senses that you're absorbing that through. The next one is, is there something adults can do to help with children... To help children and teenagers cope with anxiety better. What can I do as an adult to ease anxiety for the young people I know? And the person I know that sent this is a teacher. And it's seeing a lot of kids dealing with anxiety right now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So one of the best things you can do is lead by example. So take care of your own stress load. But also teaching them, you know, teaching them the things that... teaching them about stress levels and anxiety and what good self-care can do to really make your life better. So all of those things that we were talking about with the sleep and the hydration and what you're intaking into your body and having some quiet time and not exposing yourself to so much negativity and anxiety things that you can't have control over, letting go of things you don't have control over, you know, really teaching them and also, you know, explaining to them what is happening. Like this is not, anxiety is not a flaw. It's not you being flawed. It's your brain telling you something. And so one of the things it's telling you, if there's not an eminent threat, is that the brain thinks there's an eminent threat to your survival. which means that you're under a lot of stress and you need to reduce the stress load.
SPEAKER_01:And I was just thinking, viewing it as your body trying to protect you. I mean, maybe it's going a little haywire, but your body is trying to protect you. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Here's another one. Kind of goes along with that. What's the best way to help an adult child who deals with anxiety? What are things not to say or to say to encourage them and let you know you're there for them without sounding like you're trying to control them or dismiss their anxiety? How do you encourage therapy when you can't schedule the appointment and drive them there? I love that.
SPEAKER_00:That was really good. It is good. So the first thing I would say is ask permission. You know, is it OK if we talk about this? You know, I'm noticing some things. And is it OK if we talk about it? And if your adult child says, no, I don't want to discuss this with you to respect that. It's very, very difficult thing to do. Trust me, I I'm a mom. I get it. That
SPEAKER_01:boundary thing you were talking about earlier, it's kind of it's tied into that whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:But also if you're willing keep, you know, if they say no, keep it and you're willing to have an open door support policy. So saying something like, well, when you're ready or if you become ready to talk to me and there's things that I can do to help, I would be happy to do that. And, you know, you're always welcome to, to, One thing I would say is also educate yourself about anxiety and check your own biases about it. We have lots and lots of unconscious thoughts about anxiety. mental health and mental illness. Yeah, we do. And we have been given many, many, many, many, many, many times negative talk about mental health and mental illness. So it's easy for us. Well, there's a
SPEAKER_01:huge stigma
SPEAKER_00:still versus physical health, like a broken arm versus anxiety. Right. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And even though it's brain-based, it doesn't have anything to do with anybody's morality or anything, we still can fall into that trap. And so it's very easy to convey that without even meaning to convey it or even being aware that we're even thinking it. So just do a check on that. And also, I would say, if you're going to offer support and help, Definitely, definitely check on your own self-care and your own stress level. Because, again, we talked about that. If you're in distress, you're not going to be any good to somebody else. You need to take care of your own house first, right?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. My mom always says you can't give water from an empty well.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:She's right. Yeah, she's a pretty smart lady. She is. Yeah. So those were all the listener questions we had. Is there, before we finish up, is there anything else you feel like we should know or anything we didn't cover or something you'd like to reiterate?
SPEAKER_00:Just really, this is about the brain taking care of the organism, us, right? And so it's definitely not a character flaw. There's nothing that's not working, it's working. we're living in an age where, like we said before, we're just bombarded with so much, so much information. So, and the 24 hour news cycles, ID has probably got to be one of the most addictive and, and worst programs on, you know, on TV because it, it's 24 hours of people killing each other, doing crimes against each other. And, you know, it, it becomes, you know, But there's lots and lots of that on TV and movies and social media and all of it, plus the regular stressors that we have on life. So it's not like we're running around in the jungle anymore. It's a different jungle, but our body, our brain is still programmed like we're running around in the jungle. And so there's lots more involved. There's a lot of a lot of information about the brain and how it's working and why anxiety is produced. So, you know, it's too much to go into here, but certainly, you know, there's lots of information on it. So if anybody's interested in that, there's really lots of books, lots of articles, lots of information out there.
SPEAKER_01:There's I actually started reading a book recently called the body keeps the score. Oh yeah. That's a
SPEAKER_00:great
SPEAKER_01:one. Oh, it was fascinating. Well, and I, and from what you're saying, Sharon, I'm just thinking I do this subconsciously a lot for what I choose to watch because I know I'm very visual. And if I watch something that's like, I'm okay with like spy stuff and things like that, but like horror movies and stuff, I just can't watch them. I, I, it adds to my mental load, which I'm realizing from talking to you. But in general, I know I will have a nightmare on that same topic that night or the night after or both. And I never thought of it this way, but being a conscious consumer of media to the point or media or conversations or books or whatever, thinking, do I want to add one more weight to my mental load? Is this going to add more stress or is this going to be a stress reliever? And being more conscious and mindful about doing that, I think is something I need to work on.
SPEAKER_00:All of us, I think. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this has been fabulous. And if you are willing, I would love to have you come back and talk about some other topics because it's very, very helpful.
SPEAKER_00:I would love to. Absolutely. I'm glad it's helpful.
SPEAKER_01:As you can see, Sharon is not only an expert in her field, but able to break down Thanks for listening. Music