In this episode, host Damian talks to Sensual Masseuse Jo Silby and this time the tables are turned as our very own Jennie Williams becomes a guest!
Jo talks a little about herself and explains to the listeners what a Sensual (sexual) Massage in comparison to an ordinary massage.
Jennie shares her personal experience of suffering with Vulva pain due to having Lichen Sclerosus and how she went to Jo for a massage and the positive impact it had.
Jo also talks about how sensual massage can help people, singles and those in relationships, and what the therapy can look like.
In this episode, host Damian talks to Sensual Masseuse Jo Silby and this time the tables are turned as our very own Jennie Williams becomes a guest!
Jo talks a little about herself and explains to the listeners what a Sensual (sexual) Massage in comparison to an ordinary massage.
Jennie shares her personal experience of suffering with Vulva pain due to having Lichen Sclerosus and how she went to Jo for a massage and the positive impact it had.
Jo also talks about how sensual massage can help people, singles and those in relationships, and what the therapy can look like.
Welcome to Enhance the UK's Undressing Disability podcast where we strip back all things taboo on sex and disability.
Damian Weatherald:Hello, I'm your host Damian and today we are talking to Jo Silby, who is a sensual masseuse and our very own Jennie Williams, who is going to be on the other side of the microphone for a change talking about her own personal experiences, going for a massage. Hi, Jo, So I think the first thing we've got to do is can you please audio describe yourself for our listeners.
Jo Silby:Okay, so I am about five foot three, sort of athletic build, androgynous looking shorthair, tattooed, rides a chopper style motorbike. And I'm the owner of Optimum Body Therapies.
Damian Weatherald:Thank you. I think the first thing we need to start with is what is sensual massage and what are the benefits?
Jo Silby:Okay, so sensual massage is similar to a regular massage, except with my massage treatments, the sensual part is that I will massage you completely naked. With regards to the sensual part it's basically covering anything and everything that would not normally be touched in a regular massage. So your genitals, your breast, chest area, bum, for some people. Yeah, I cover all sorts various of the body, nothing is not touched. It's really all dependent on what the client requests through the authorization and request form that they get sent in order to see what they want, what they're willing to go down the route of, what they feel they're comfortable with, and also to take them to places that they're not necessarily comfortable with but want to explore.
Damian Weatherald:Do you think is one of those things that is very nerve wracking for people to go and have done?
Jo Silby:Yeah, totally. Most massages when you go, you know what you're going to get, basically you keep your pants on or your knickers on, or a lower piece of clothing. And then your general massage will be your torso, not at all touching any of the chest area. Sometimes you might get a slight kind of massage on your buttocks, very rarely not, so you're normally going for a massage, and because it's a regular massage, and there's not going to be any kind of sensual touching at all, you feel more comfortable. But when you come for a sensual massage, I'm sure a lot of the clients that I see are utterly terrified because it's the stepping into the unknown, and they want to try something that they might be, well not ashamed of necessarily, but it's something that they want to explore for specific reasons. So there's a lot of nerves in different areas, some people may have never shown their naked body to anybody, or they may not have shown their genitals to someone. So yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of nerves, but generally, most people that come to me are quite relaxed within a short space of time. So I try to make everybody feel as relaxed as possible. And it's normal. It's normal to come and have one of these, there's no shame behind it.
Damian Weatherald:No, I can imagine there's quite a bit of a stigma about it, a that fear of going to someone for that sort of massage that goes beyond the boundary of a normal massage, like you say.
Jo Silby:Yeah, I have my own friends that do it, you know, it still gets that tag, it's a happy ending. And to some degree that's down to the client that's not down to me, that's down to the client and how comfortable they feel with letting themselves go. And hopefully, a lot of the clients feel that comfortable they achieve that within themselves. If they have an orgasm that's down to them, it's not down to me. You know, I don't have any barriers. I don't want my clients to feel embarrassed, but I'm sure that when they speak to their friends, they go, Oh, you're going to go for a happy ending. But I'm trying to change people's minds around it. I've still got friends of my own that go, Oh, you're giving one of those massages, and I say if that's how you want to label it, then that's fine you know, because if you haven't experienced it yourself, it's quite small minded really for some people and I think it comes down to embarrassment more than anything. Do you know what I mean?
Damian Weatherald:It's that embarrassment of the unknown. But that media perception of a happy ending, you just picture a little brothel somewhere with a worker in there who is doing that for that simple reason of a happy ending.
Jo Silby:Yeah, I mean, generally, you tend to find there are places that you can go and they're relatively cheap. I'm not cheap for that purpose. I mean, I'm not as expensive as other sensual masseuses that I know, and there aren't that many, I think there's only two or three that I know of in and around the country. And you purposely make yourself a certain cost in order to stop people coming with that, I'm just going to come in and you're going to give me a happy ending, and then I'm going to go home. And it's like, no, this is completely different experience. And everybody comes for all sorts of reasons.
Damian Weatherald:You're just mentioning about there not the many others who do it. That leads to my next question, how you got into it?
Jo Silby:Oh, so. So quite a while back in actual fact, I was listening to the Love Lounge podcast and I think Jennie we've had discussions, I think that was yourself, wasn't it? Because I was a massage therapist, and one of the questions that I had always asked on my training, what if somebody got turned on or they got an erection? I was always taken down the route of no, no, no, no, no. So when I listened to the podcast, I was like, right, I'm going to source somebody that is going to train me where it's not going to be such a taboo. And it was actually my other half, we were watching a programme on the TV and Colin Richards, who actually owns and trains people at Intimacy Matters, was one of two other people that they were doing a documentary on, I think it was Orgasms For Sale, which was really, really interesting. And my other half said, I think you'd be really good at that. And then listening to the podcast, I was like, right, I'm going to find someone to train me, I went to Colin did my training, and I trained on a man and a woman. I don't just do women only I do a broad range of people. And I throughly enjoyed it. And it was the first time I'd actually been to somebody where you could ask the question, what if somebody got an erection and there was no kind of, oh we don't talk about that, and it was great. The whole day was in and around, having a sensual massage, being trained in sensual massage and understanding the reason why it's so important for people to have this as somewhere for someone to go and have a massage, but also have that as well, if that's something that they wanted to explore. I mean, I do do regular massages, but it's not my forte, I actually really love doing the sensual part of it, because it just helps people get in touch with a completely different side of themselves.
Damian Weatherald:And massage is a very sensual thing, so like you said, getting an erection during one it's a natural thing, depending where the masseuse is touching. It's a natural reaction, it shouldn't be seen as a taboo or something to hide.
Jo Silby:Yeah, exactly. And I think the thing is, you tend to Again, though, this kind of goes back to that whole sex education find people, you know, we still have a massive problem with sex education, and people aren't taken down the road of, what if thing, of how we are brought up with it's private parts. It's this was to happen, what if that was to happen with your partner? You know, there are a lot of questions that are still in and amongst people's friends, but not partners to partner. They don't want to have those difficult discussions about things, but you'll quite openly discuss with your friends. Whereas, if you wanted to go and explore, something really random and you find someone like me that go, okay, that's fine. And then you go, actually, this person is not embarrassed. This embarrassing to get an erection. You know, boys try and hide that is great. I don't feel stupid now. They're gonna help me discover sexuality that I'm feeling or, I've had one person that came to me with erection problems in the relationship, didn't have erection problems with me. And I was like, this, to me is like it shows you that there isn't actually something bu it's a natural thing. So if we have these conversations at a wrong with you, it's probably something a little bit more in your relationship that you need to discuss. And maybe you bring your partner and we discuss what it is. I think when there's a third person, it's easier to talk to someone like mediation and stuff like that, especially when there's no kind of sniggering, it's like, okay, it's an open forum, let's just discuss what the issues are. Maybe it's something like stress from work or, you know, whatever is causing a problem. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we've got a long way to go. What I younger age, I think it can then lead into a better society to be more open about these things, then there'd be less stigma about it. find really odd is that once you start talking to people, they're quite open because once you open that forum, and you're not making them feel embarrassed, they'll discuss all sorts of things but if you put them back with their partner say, right now say it to your partner, there's still that issue where it's just too embarrassing for them to do. We're trying to change the way people view sex, sexuality, the way they are, the way they look, the way they feel. It's like nothing is embarrassing. When people come in my door, you leave the outside, everything in here we can discuss, everything and anything without you feeling embarrassed about yourself.
Damian Weatherald:And it's that openness that can help relationships. I think that's a really good place to bring our very own Jennie Williams in, who is going to talk about her experience of going to see Jo.
Jennie Williams:Hi, yeah, well, it's kind of weird. I did well, didn't, I was sat there quite quietly for the whole thing, listening intently to Jo. Yeah, I think that I over the years, have obviously advocated this kind of thing and the reason I set the charity up in the first place, and it's kind of weird, because I think I almost set a charity up for my future self. And something that I haven't spoken about really that openly on these podcasts, is that I was diagnosed a year and a half ago with something called lichen sclerosis. And also vulvodynia and chronic thrush. All of those things took a really, really long time for me to get diagnosed with, I kept going back and back and back to the doctors and I kept getting told that they thought I had herpes, and they thought I had various different STIs, none of which were true. And it wasn't until eventually a doctor saw me and said, I think you might have something called Lichen sclerosis, which I'd never heard of. And I had to pay privately to go and see someone. And there's still very little known about that. They think it's an autoimmune condition, but they still really don't know exactly what causes it. But what it essentially can do is change the architecture of your vaginal opening, to make it very narrow, and then cause a lot of pain around your vulva and your clitoris can fuse over. Your skin can rip really easily, you get sores, it just causes a lot of pain. And on top of that, which I didn't know I had chronic thrush. I've got a two and a half year old and a four year old and I'm 42, so I think probably hormones, breastfeeding, having two babies quite close together, all of those things probably just whipped up all these hormones. And then also I was diagnosed with vulvodynia, which is kind of chronic pain around my vulva. So it's kind of painful nearly all the time. So that's been a journey of research for me over the last year and a half, but one of the things that was really difficult for me is when I went to go and see the gynaecologist, she said to me, Are you sexually active? And I didn't really know how to answer that question because in theory I'm sexually active, but actually, I found anything to do with sex really difficult because it's really painful. And then I also get bladder pain, which is lucky, another thing that I missed out, which is lovely, you know, a lovely thing that has happened to me. And so that has been really difficult, when we have penetrative sex it's really painful, and then not really exploring how I get any pleasure. So I saw Jo joined the hub, our Undressing Disability hub, and I thought, Okay, this looks really interesting, because I don't really know how to get pleasure anymore. I don't really understand what's happening to my body. So I phoned Jo, and I remember sitting outside and it was a nice evening, and I was chatting to Jo, we ended up chatting for about two hours, didn't we, Jo? And Jo made me feel really comfortable and I was just saying, Look, this is the situation I don't really know what to do. And she said come and see me and of course I was nervous. And I think a big thing is people see it as maybe cheating on your partner, but I went with full consent that my partner knew I was going to see Jo and for me, it was one of the things that the gynaecologist said to me, is when she said, Are you sexually active, was you should be having sex twice a week, try and be having sex twice a week, and I just cried my eyes out when she said that, because I was like, Oh my God. I mean, most people who have got young kids to have sex twice a week anyway, is like really?! but, you know, the thought of having sex twice a week was just horrifying, to be honest. So I was like that just equates pain to me. So anyway, I went to go and see Jo and we started chatting and very, very quickly, I just felt relaxed, and at ease, and that was all down to down to you, Jo, making me feel like that. But saying that, of course, I was laying there on the bed, and Jo started massaging me and of course, I was in my head, you know, somebody else is touching me, somebody else is touching me intimately. Should I be doing this? Is this a really bad thing? You know, all of those things were going through my head. And I had to really talk myself out of that and just say, No, this is what you do for a living, you advocate this for people for a living. This is a bit of a selfish journey. And I think for me, it was about learning, relearning as a 42 year old woman, how to get pleasure in a different way. And I really learned a lot about myself, I didn't really understand how my vulva could be touched. I didn't even understand about my clitoris because my clitoris is fused over a lot due to the lichen sclerosis. And for me, every time I looked at it, I was starting to get horrified. Oh my god, you know, this anxiety. And actually, some people have large hoods over their clitoris, some people don't, doesn't mean you can't have feeling or can't be stimulated. And, Jo was just teaching me that and touching me in a way, kind of showing me that I could get pleasure. And that was so emotional, I mean I feel emotional now talking about it. It was so emotional for me because I thought I'd lost that part of me. I thought I wasn't going to be able to be sexual and I thought I wasn't going to be able to reach an orgasm. And I did. And to be fair after that happened because Jo put her fingers inside me as well but actually afterwards, I had quite bad vulva pain, and quite bad bladder pain for about two weeks. And told Jo about it, she said right come back and let's try it again. So what I learned was I can't have too much time spent actually on my vulva, I can't have that intensity. I can't have certain lubes. You know, that's really important getting the right lube for me. And and Jo spent time kind of learning what works for me and how I could reach orgasm. And then the second time, I think I was naturally more relaxed because I'd done it before. I knew Jo, I trusted her and I just thought no, I'm really going to embrace this and it was such a liberating, wonderful experience for me that it was able to give me the confidence to say you know what, I have got vulvodynia, I have got Lychen sclerosis, I have got chronic thrush, I have got bladder pain, and they're all pretty crap to have, I'm not gonna lie, but I can still achieve orgasm and I can still achieve pleasure. And that is so important to me. So it's been really interesting and like Jo said, you can get this Happy Ending thing in your head and that's never what it was about, it was about touch. And having sensual touch and about being in touch with your head and your body and Jo allowing me to think body, head, you know, let's work together rather than than the two being separate and thinking, this is gonna be painful. This is horrible. I've got to give somebody else pleasure back and it wasn't about that it was just all about me, which is amazing because how many people get to do that? You know, not very often. So it's been a really, really positive experience for me.
Damian Weatherald:It sounds like that real deep voyage of discovery of yourself. You've learned to see something that wasn't there in the sense of finding pleasure again, which, you know yourself Jennie, we get that many questions to the hub, and to the Love Lounge about people who are afraid they can't have sex after being diagnosed or sexual pleasure after being diagnosed with certain conditions. So your experience of that shows, there is maybe ways to go forward.
Jennie Williams:Absolutely. And I always knew there was but I'd never been in the position to even try that. And as you said, Damian loads of people that we speak to, people who are disabled, or become disabled particularly, make even more an effort to have sensual, amazing sex lives, because you have to and you have to think innovatively and you experiment with each other. But I think if you haven't got that, you just become quite lazy, especially a lot of the time if it's male female penetrative sex, in out, you're not really thinking like that. But actually, I was trying to think of it in a different way and go, Okay, what is the silver lining of this? Let's try and think outside the box and other ways that you can get pleasure. So even when Jo was working out around my hips, around my bottom, I was thinking, godI feel really sensitive around there, but in a good way, because that's a place where I feel more confident, rather than necessarily around my clitoris and my vulva and round the bit that you would normally think about going for pleasure. So you can take those things, and then relate them back to your partner and say, Actually, could you do it like this? Could you try this, I know that this works, I know this doesn't work, and teach them. So I think if it's a consensual thing, between you and your partner, and you're able to use Jo as a facilitatoor, or somebody like Jo, then it's amazing.
Damian Weatherald:I find that interesting, because you touched on earlier about the idea of cheating, and before doing this podcast, I spoke to friends about talking to Jo and what Jo does, and they were alarmed, they just thought it was like, horrific the thought of going and having that sort of massage because it would be like cheating on their partner. Even if they went together, they thought it would be cheating. I guess looking at Jo here, for people who obviously can't see the screen, she is laughing her head off! I'm guessing this is something you get quite a lot.
Jo Silby:Yeah, I mean, I do you know, and it is people's perceptions of stuff. But it's no different from a variety of other things, if you've got something that you're seeking help for, you know, you will go to the dentist for dental treatment and stuff like that, but why is it a source of people's perception is like you're going to go and cheat on me. And I think it's that whole element in and around the sensual aspect, it's like, you're looking elsewhere for pleasure, but you're not, you're looking elsewhere to find a way of getting your pleasure, because it's not happening in the way that you originally had it work for you, you know, the dynamic has now changed and you need to find a new dynamic that works for both of you. The fact that you've told your partner, I need to find help, there's the door, you know, you've opened it, and you've broached something that you're going to find help in a way that is going to help you as a couple. Also for the dynamics for your partner, it changes for them, because they've got to look at the pleasures that they want to seek for you, they need to find a different way of helping you achieve that in your unit, you know, they've got to look at things. Like if you can't have penetrative sex anymore, what can we do, it doesn't just stop there, you look at other avenues, you have to look at other avenues because if you've got a relationship, that is that tight, and then the sex part of you falls apart, for some relationships everything falls apart. So if you've got the communication, and you're willing to go along with someone, you know, you've opened the channel, it's like, I'm not cheating, I'm looking for this avenue for us to still have what we had, but in a different way. And that's what I tried to say to people, you know, it's not cheating, because you have to have that conversation with your partner. You've already stepped out of your comfort zone, and you're having it with me, the hardest thing now is to go back to your partner and have that conversation and if you can't, then that's obviously something that you need to kind of go down in a different route. But I think once you start opening those channels, your partner, if they've seen something in you that is changed, that the dynamic of your sex life is changed, then they're going to be open to looking at other avenues then for both of us, not just for you, but also for me, because I've now got to work with you in a different way. And our sex has changed completely and utterly changed but it's not unachievable. You just need to find a different way of getting there.
Damian Weatherald:Was it hard for you to have those conversations Jennie, with your partner?
Jennie Williams:Yeah, it was, you know, I mean, he's quite a closed person. You know, I talk about sex for a living and he doesn't at all. He's a 50 year old Scotsman who doesn't find it easy. So, when I first came back from for seeing Jo, actually, the first thing he did was give me a cuddle and say you're a trailblazer, I'm proud of you, which was really nice. When I first spoke to Jo, and initially had these conversations, I said I was really nervous and one of the things that Jo said was, Look, you know, if you hurt your back or hurt your elbow, you hurt your knee, you'd go to Chiropractor and osteopath. You know it's the same thing, essentially. And that really, really resonated with me and stuck with me. It's like something feels broken, something feels painful, really painful, not just a bit painful, really painful all of the time. How do I mentally change my mindset and start liking that part of my body again. So that was a big thing between me and my partner just because he could see what that was doing to me, like eating away at my soul, really. And also in pain and I think obviously there are lots of people listening that haven't got partners, that are single, and it's that as well. It's about learning how you can give pleasure to yourself in a slightly different way because if you've always masturbated in a certain way, and suddenly you can't do that anymore, or say you use vibrators, and suddenly you can't use a vibrator inside you anymore, because it doesn't fit, I mean, that's the case for me, I can't. What do you do? You know, what other toys can you look at? or ways to experiment? And I know that that is something that certainly I haven't actually done that with with Jo, but certainly, I know if I wanted to, I could go along and say, Jo, could you try with this to see if you could help me and see if it works and then if I meet somebody else, then I can tell them how to use that. So it always comes back down to the sex education that Jo mentioned. You know, this is why we talk about masturbation with young people and paediatricians, and that the masturbation should be talked about with young people who've got poor dexterity or disability, you've got to learn how to pleasure yourself and understand what that means to be able to tell somebody else how to be pleasured, because otherwise, you'll never really know. And who wants to be in their 80s and going, Oh, I really regret that I've never done that, you know, women were given a clitoris for a reason, you know, and that was meant to bring us pleasure and we need to celebrate that. Well, you know, and for men as well, penises are for all different things. But also pleasure is one of them. Being able to go to the toilet conveniently at a festival is also another but you know! but I just feel, dare I say, I feel proud of myself. I feel proud of myself for being able to step outside my comfort zone even though everyone thinks I'm really confident person talking about this, it was a big deal for me. But, you know, I've got Jo to thank for that, because she's made it really really easy for it to happen, and I really encourage anyone else to try and do the same thing, or at least start having the conversations about it.
Damian Weatherald:Yeah, definitely. I'm just so proud that you've come on here, being so open talking to me and Jo about this, I think it can only be a good thing for other people to listen to this. And hopefully, they realise that it's not shameful, there's no stigma, you can look for help and finding people like Jo. Jo, is there specific conditions that you work with? Or do you get a variation of who comes to see you?
Jo Silby:Ah, yeah, it's variations. I'll try to work with anyone. I don't think anybody should not be able to have support, help, advice, understanding, someone to listen to them, because there's so many things out there, that's geared up for all sorts of ways to help people, but I try to make myself available as possible, as affordable as possible. Because if you've got a service that you can't afford to have, I think that is such a shame, because there are things that you do go and see, I mean some massage services, just a general message I think are just ridiculously expensive. Make yourself available if you're willing to help someone make yourself available to help them and if you charge for a service make it affordable as well, you know,
Damian Weatherald:Yeah, because I can't imagine it's a service that the NHS will ever introduce somehow.
Jo Silby:No, definitely not! But I mean, the other three people that do do this service, they are 175 pounds plus for their time. And for me, it was always something when I trained as a massage therapist, I was always going to be affordable for everybody. It should not just be a service for people that have got money and can afford it. I just think that's terrible. So yeah, that's why I charge 100 pound for an hour or 150 pounds for an hour and a half. I don't do an hour's treatment for someone, Jennie we've done, what was it an hour and a half? Yeah, I don't stop at 60 minutes ago, right, that's your time, that's what you paid for. It is what it is. I try to be as flexible as possible, if somebody is really enjoying it, you know, or someone falls asleep on my table which has happened, you know, I'll sit there until they wake up, it's not a problem.
Damian Weatherald:Have you got a message for people who would like would be interested in trying it, but who are like really scared of doing it?
Jo Silby:Yeah, take hold of that fear and turn it into an opportunity. One thing I was listening to the other day was, we can all help people deal with their fears, because you're helping them but we're always not good at dealing with our own. So get hold of your fear and make it take a telephone call or an email, and contact me, even if you just want to ask something as a small question, or a big question, you know, I'm really open to anything and everything with regards to helping people understand their concerns, or, things that they might feel a little bit ashamed of. Just get in touch.
Damian Weatherald:Have you got any messages, Jennie, for those that are scared?
Jennie Williams:Oh, yeah, I would just I'd echo that, I think, especially if you've been diagnosed with a condition, getting your head around that is a huge thing. And sometimes you can join all these forums, and a lot of that can be really negative, it can all be about pain. And there's a place for forums, there absolutley is and there was a place at that time when I needed those. But actually, I found that I was just getting really caught up in other people's pain, other people's fear and it was a very, very negative place for me. And then, once I found Jo, when I had that conversation, it really turned into a positive place. And without kind of sounding completely sycophantic, it was a real game changer. And it really made a massive, positive impact in my life, and made me feel like I feel more in control about it. And as I said, it's something that I feel kind of proud of. So I think even if you just want to start the initial conversations, as Jo said, whether that be with Jo or whether that be contacting us at Enhance, starting having those conversations, even if it's not with your partner, or if it was with somebody that you trust, or us, then that is the first step. It really is and you're not alone in how you feel because it can be very, very scary. But there is there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Damian Weatherald:If people want to get in touch with you, Jo, how is the best way?
Jo Silby:There is going to be a resource I've written put up on to the Enhance the UK Undressing Disability hub, which has my details on it. So I will also give you my website, which is undergoing a whole new look and I've got an Instagram as well.
Damian Weatherald:We will put all those links on the hub and on the description for the podcast. Is there anything else from either of you before we finish?
Jennie Williams:I want to say thank you Jo for helping me. It's genuinely been a real game changer for me. So thank you for coming into my life, Jo.
Jo Silby:Pleasure.
Jennie Williams:Literally pleasure. We'll leave it at that shall we?
Damian Weatherald:That has been absolutely amazing. Thank you both so much.
Jennie Williams:Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like any more information about the work we do under the Undressing Disability campaign, then go on to our website at enhancetheuk.org and click on the Undressing Disability tab.