“I definitely miss the old me a lot … the freedom, the ability to just go… [but] I’ve gained so much [by being a dad] - perspective is number one … I have gained an excitement for the future that I didn’t have before.”
Matthew has come a long way from a childhood in the Denver suburbs to (literally) freewheeling around Canada to touring the American South with a rowdy group of musicians to—now—being the primary caregiver to an 18-month old son in [where he lives]. And somewhere in there was… yep ... also a period of ambivalence, for both him and his wife, about whether or not to have children.
Matthew shares about his journey through these shifting identities, including about how politics and worldview played into his ambivalence in the past (hello, diaper-filled ocean garbage patch!), and his honest feelings about settling comfortably into the role of Dad, from joy and newfound optimism to frustration at the way having procreated can get in the way of his artistic creative practice.
Along the way, we chat about what made him and his wife change their minds to a definite “yes” on kids… some thoughts on going through the IVF process as the not-pregnant, supporting partner… and you can listen in real time as I have an a-ha (or maybe uh-oh) moment about what IVF could potentially be like for me.
So, thank you for coming along on this chat-adventure with Matthew and me as we consider what might be lost — and gained — on the tender and exciting and wild journey of parenthood.
Things to think about as you listen:
“I definitely miss the old me a lot … the freedom, the ability to just go… [but] I’ve gained so much [by being a dad] - perspective is number one … I have gained an excitement for the future that I didn’t have before.”
Matthew has come a long way from a childhood in the Denver suburbs to (literally) freewheeling around Canada to touring the American South with a rowdy group of musicians to—now—being the primary caregiver to an 18-month old son in [where he lives]. And somewhere in there was… yep ... also a period of ambivalence, for both him and his wife, about whether or not to have children.
Matthew shares about his journey through these shifting identities, including about how politics and worldview played into his ambivalence in the past (hello, diaper-filled ocean garbage patch!), and his honest feelings about settling comfortably into the role of Dad, from joy and newfound optimism to frustration at the way having procreated can get in the way of his artistic creative practice.
Along the way, we chat about what made him and his wife change their minds to a definite “yes” on kids… some thoughts on going through the IVF process as the not-pregnant, supporting partner… and you can listen in real time as I have an a-ha (or maybe uh-oh) moment about what IVF could potentially be like for me.
So, thank you for coming along on this chat-adventure with Matthew and me as we consider what might be lost — and gained — on the tender and exciting and wild journey of parenthood.
Things to think about as you listen:
[00:12] Introduction: Welcome to season two of the Ask podcast, where I go deep into my journey towards motherhood. I haven't always known I wanted to have children, but I thought the choice would be made for me when we pulled the goalie almost three years ago. Well, not the case. This is my story of grappling with what I'm not even sure I want parenthood while taking more and more conscious steps to make it happen, of moving from ambivalence at the beginning of the process to feeling really, really big feelings about it, feelings I had been denying and the evolving shift in identity that I'm experiencing well, right now, actually. For those of you who haven't always known you wanted to be a mom, dad, or parent, I hope we can be on this growth journey together by getting curious about our feelings, our beliefs, our choices, our bodies, by asking a whole lot of thanks for being here. Hello, my friends. Before I get started on introducing this next interview, I want to give everyone an update on just kind of where I've been the last month. It took me a little while to get out the Joe Chrissy interview and then the Ellie interview because of some personal things happening. Yeah, I had a lot of death in my sphere. A coaching client of mine who I'd been working with for eight months passed unexpectedly at the age of 26 after running a marathon. And then a few weeks later, a woman I know and who had attended one of my Immersive experiences workshops called The Labyrinth I found out that she took her own life. And this was I mean, both of these people just bright, bright lights in this world. And then I found out just a few days ago, well, once you hear this, it'll probably be a few weeks that my best friend's ex husband, who is also the father of two of my nibblings and two of the children that in all of these episodes, I've been talking about wanting to create deeper, closer connection with. He passed away in his sleep, and we're not even sure of the causes at this point. And he was, I think, in his early 40s. Pierre was 26, and Carolina was, I think, my age. So 39, 40. So it's been a lot, and I noticed how much it affected my ability to just do things like this podcast. That brings me a lot of joy. And I wanted so much to be focusing on all the ways that I want to live life and, like, oh, my gosh, I don't have control over so much, and things could end in a heartbeat. And let me take advantage of every moment and live it and live it big. And yet what was happening in my brain was kind of the very opposite, where it was like, do the things you need to do. Get the shit done. Move forward. Move forward. Like, do the task list. And I was sort of like in this battle between these two things. And I think I'm in a point where I'm starting to feel I don't want to say on the other side of it, but I'm definitely feeling less heavy the weight of it. I'm not carrying the weight of it anymore. I'm starting to feel more of the joy that's available to me and that's wonderful. And so I give this to you as a reminder that I don't know, I'm trying to be more in the messy middle and share more of my messy middle. And even this isn't really right in the middle. It's kind of at the tail end of the mess, but I'm sharing it. And that in and of itself is a big step. And it relates a lot to the episode that I've recorded MIFF Matthew, where he is very much still in the messy middle of figuring out parenthood after having been on his own for a long time. Like with my last podcast guest, Ellie, I met Matthew through Instagram, through Emily Oster's post from one of her readers around being an Ambivalent parent. And he had some very thoughtful commentary in the comments section. And so I reached out to him cold on Instagram and asked if he wanted to talk to me on this podcast about his experience. So, a little about Matthew. Matthew has come a long way from a childhood in the Denver burbs to literally freewheeling around Canada, to touring the American South with a rowdy group of musicians, to now being the primary caregiver to an 18 month old son. And somewhere in there was also a period of Ambivalence for both him and his wife about whether or not to have children. In our conversation, Matthew shares about his journey through these shifting identities, including about how politics and worldview played into his Ambivalence in the past yeah, like diaper filled ocean garbage patch, kind of that kind of worldview. And his honest feelings about settling comfortably into the role of dad. Along the way, we chat about what made him and his wife change their minds to a definite yes on kids. Some thoughts on going through the IVF process as the nonpregnant supporting partner. And I have an AHA moment or maybe, uhoh, moment of what IVF could potentially be like for me, which is a journey that we may be starting on now. Actually. Some things to think about as you listen. How do you personally describe your identity now? How has this description shifted over your different life phases thus far? And how might it change in the future? What future changes do you think would excite you? And what future shifts do you think would disappoint or frustrate you? How do your political, environmental, religious, or other views inform your feelings about being a parent? Whether you are, aren't, want to be one, don't, or aren't sure? And if you are a parent, what is the number one thing you have gained by having children if you hope to be a parent? Same question. What is something that you have lost or are afraid you'll lose? And if you don't want to be a parent, you can ask yourself these questions as what is the number one thing you have gained by not having children, and what is something you're afraid you'll miss out on by not having them? I think it's really great for us to get honest with ourselves. Without further ado, my conversation with Matthew.
[07:41] Krissie: Well, I'm just very excited to have this conversation with you and talk a little bit about Ambivalence and parenting and your journey and all the things I.
[07:52] Matthew: Hope I can give you some good little tidbits. I don't know that I have anything unique or especially interesting to say right now. I'm in the middle of it, and there's all these thoughts and feelings, but they're all thoughts and feelings that have been thunk before.
[08:10] Krissie: Yeah, but I think that what's been really cool is, like, a lot of people don't talk about the ambivalence part, and that that even continues even once you have had a child. Sometimes I was chatting with another woman who I asked her if she wanted to come on the podcast. She was kind of like, you know, I'm still in all these feelings. Like, I don't know if I want to share them.
[08:30] Introduction: That's cool.
[08:31] Krissie: So I think it's a gift. It's a great gift when people are open about their experiences, because we're not alone. I'm sure you're not alone. The more I put myself out there with this podcast, the more I'm like, oh, I'm not alone either, so I'm grateful.
[08:46] Matthew: How are you doing in your journey?
[08:49] Krissie: Yeah, thanks for the question. I had this moment, actually, last week where I was in sort of a space of people that are openly sharing. I don't know how else to describe it, but it's like 40 people in a zoom. It's a very vulnerable, tender space. And one woman shared something very tender about a miscarriage that had happened 15 years ago that she was just starting to grieve. And it opened something up with me where I was like, I think I'm finally actually, like, month on month, like, actually grieving a little bit when I don't end up pregnant in a way that for the first two and a half years, it was kind of like, okay, didn't happen next. And now it's sort of the process. I feel more sad, but I also feel more like it's like I feel all the feelings more. I also feel a heightened sense of if this doesn't happen and we end up not having children, there's an excitement for that as well. It's like both ends of the spectrum. It's like a mourning both things at the same time. The possibility of having a child and losing things and the possibility of not having one. And what I would lose if I didn't. I don't know. I guess it's kind of been cool because I feel quite alive in all of it. Thanks for asking.
[10:17] Matthew: Oh, for sure. This is quite the journey you're going through. I think in a lot of ways, my path is fixed. I have some frustrations, but certainly no regrets.
[10:29] Krissie: Yeah. Well, tell me why don't you give me the high level? Tell me your story. I know that you were kind of ambivalent about parenthood. You now have a how old son?
[10:40] Matthew: He's almost a year and a half. He'll be 18 the beginning of next month.
[10:45] Krissie: And so you went from kind of ambivalence to this journey around IVF and things to now you're actually his primary kind of stay at home caretaker.
[10:57] Matthew: Yes.
[10:57] Krissie: Right. So that's, like, a huge transition. So tell me your story, and I'll interrupt with some questions along the way.
[11:04] Matthew: I'll try and be brief. I mean, I can babble, especially when I'm talking about myself. I had a fairly traditional upbringing. I grew up in the suburbs outside of Denver. We moved around a lot. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I decided, I think I want to be a writer. So I studied journalism. After university, I moved to Alaska because that's what you do when you're a young man looking for adventure. And I very quickly had a crisis of not confidence, but just I was miserable, working a lot. I didn't move to Alaska to work a lot. I moved to Alaska to have adventure. And so I quit my job, maxed out my credit cards, and was kind of a bum. For most of my 20s, I'd worked odd jobs here and there, and then I found I did long bicycle trips. I did mountaineering adventures. I got to see a lot of Canada by bicycle. It was great.
[12:12] Krissie: I'd love for you to reframe bum into lived this off the beaten path, adventurous life. That sounds pretty great.
[12:21] Matthew: It was great. Very challenging. There's a good number of people who do this. The whole Van life thing is big right now. People have their adventures, and I think they're a lot smarter about it than I was. They're a lot more financially independent. I just did this without really much of a plan, and there was a couple of times I've run out of money in strange cities. I mean, I wanted to stay in Canada. I loved Canada, but I ran out of money, and I'm like, well, I can't just work in Canada. So I came back to the United States thinking I could find a job easily. I ended up in a college town, Bellingham, Washington, thinking I could find some work there easily. No. So I was homeless, and it was really a struggle. This is, like, the middle of winter. I mean, that part of Washington is not known for sunshine, and I definitely had some really dark moments in this time of my life. But I never really had any regrets either, because I made that choice. I knew it would be hard. Eventually I had to get in touch with my parents and say, you know, I'm kind of stuck here and I don't like this anymore. And they helped me out. And that was really humbling for me because I was trying to do it on my own. I don't come from a nice family or anything. My mom was just a hard worker. My father is a hard worker, but very kind of blue collar. Neither of them went to college, so it was really humbling for me to have to do that. So that's why I did in my twenty s. I was still doing that when I turned 30, but then I got a dog and I settled down. I joined a band. We were able to tour a little bit. My mom, bless her soul, loves dogs, so as I accumulated dogs, she would take care of them for me if I had to work out of town for a bit or go on the road with the band. So it was nice, but I was starting to settle down a little bit. And then I got married, went back to school to get a postgraduate certificate doing GIS Geographic Information Systems. It's like databases with X Y coordinates and that was really good. But I had a very difficult time finding a job. And it could be that I just am not as smart as I like to think I am. The way I like to look at it is that I think my resume didn't quite reflect the caliber of an employee that I think I could have been. I very much wanted to get back into like a nine to five working lifestyle. I mean, that's the whole reason I went back to school. You know, I'm like, yeah, my wife was very supportive. She's like, I'll all of you go back to school. We'll get this. I borrowed some money to go back. I thought I'd get a job. And that never really happened. I got a couple of jobs, but I couldn't parlay that experience into a steady career. So I think one of the things I'll probably touch on as we talk about being a stay at home father is I do have a little bit of resentment about not about being a stay at home dad, but the fact that it wasn't entirely my choice.
[16:06] Krissie: And I don't think you're alone in that, especially, I don't know, I've just heard a lot of pandemic challenges of people, probably mostly women, but men too, leaving the workforce kind of not by choice to take care of kids. So I can imagine there would be a little bit of resentment.
[16:26] Matthew: I just imagine that people would look at my resume and be like, here's a 40 year old dude looking for an entry level work. I think if it's a choice between me and a 25 year old, you'd go as a 25 year old. And I don't really begrudge employers for this, but I definitely struggled. And right before the pandemic started, I was thinking, like, I'm going to become a teacher. I love kids. We're talking about starting a family. This would be great. So I was guest teaching, pretty much substitute teaching, but I had some long term gigs for teachers who were going on maternity leave. I could get to know the students. I could really immerse myself in the field. And I really enjoyed it. I can't say I was really good at it. Groups of children are really difficult. I do not like my voice, but they really respond well to that.
[17:24] Krissie: Yeah.
[17:24] Matthew: So it was frustrating. And then the pandemic happened and we were pretty committed to, like, starting I think we were committed to IVF at that point and everything else that was going on. It was decided that I wouldn't go back into a classroom because kids and germs. It's very true what they say.
[17:47] Krissie: Very true. I get this sense that you were living this kind of like adventure, do your own thing, live for you, live in the moment, had some challenges with it, but generally that sort of lifestyle and it sounds like kids weren't even on your mind for a really long time.
[18:10] Matthew: No, I think when I was much younger, I just assumed, like, oh, yeah, I'll probably get married, have kids. Sure. Because that's the thing, we all kind of hear those cultural voices that percolates in. But by the time I decided to quit my job in Alaska and be more of a bicycling vagabond, I realized, no, I'm not having kids. That makes no sense. I really enjoyed dogs, and I would meet lots of dogs in my travels. And there were several times people are like, oh, this dog really loves you. You should take the dog. I'm like, oh, no, I can't. That would be unfair to the dog. But eventually I did get a dog.
[19:02] Krissie: So what shifted? So it sounds like we got a dog before. Really thinking about the kids thing, too. So I think that's, like, becoming much more common, too. People are like, let me see if I can take care of this kind of thing first. But it sounds like there was a shift. Once you met your wife. Can you talk me through what your thought process was during that time?
[19:27] Matthew: We were both fairly ambivalent about children when we met and started dating. It never came up much beyond don't get pregnant because we are not ready. Definitely not ready. I'm a very reactive person. I take situations as they come, and I feel like I can handle anything if that's what happens. I used to be that sort of confident. I don't know if I am anymore. But I used to be like, hey, if it happens, whatever. But my wife is very different than me in that she needs all her ducks in a row. And she was not at a point in her career where children were at all a possibility when we first met. She's fairly adventurous too, I'll have you know, after we met her, she went and she trekked in Nepal for a bit. She went to South America to do a Spanish language immersion program in Ecuador. So she wasn't ready for that either. But as we're dating and settling in and eventually we get married, we talk about it, and we became open to the idea, but not necessarily committed. We got married in 2016, right before the election, after the election. I hate talking about politics, but for me and my wife, we were both fairly progressive people, and the election of 2016 really was a punch in the gut, and it really made us think twice about like, do you really want to have kids in the world right now? For me, that was something that bothered me. It was not just that, but I was really active in the environmental movement in my youth. And the idea there's a lot of people in that movement who think having children is one of the worst things you can do for the planet, because each children, and especially if you have a fluent Western lifestyle where you're going to be consuming and producing waste. And let me tell you about diapers.
[21:54] Krissie: Oh my God. Yeah.
[21:56] Matthew: Are taking up a lot of room in the trash bin that I haul up the hill every week, and that's adding up into a landfill. And do I'd be a liar if I said I didn't have a little bit of guilt about that? Just a little bit.
[22:12] Krissie: Well, I'm hearing there was this openness, but that you were also really weighing.
[22:19] Introduction: A lot of different things in your.
[22:21] Krissie: Mind about things much bigger than just you and your immediate family. Like things around the environmental impact, social impact, the world that you were potentially bringing a child into. Those are big things to be thinking about as you're like, do we want to do those? Do we not? So what made you finally pull the trigger? Or was it more just like you slowly became open? What was that for you?
[22:48] Matthew: I wish I had a good story or a good anecdote. But our hearts were slowly softened to the idea of having a family. We started talking in the abstract about, like well, I think it was around 2018. So we hadn't been married that long, but we're also I'm 46 now. My wife's about five years younger. So you've talked a little bit on your podcast about some of these realities being a woman, and I think my wife was feeling those feelings too. So we're like, if we're going to do this, we should talk about it. Well, we'll talk about it, and if you want to talk about it I feel like I was a lot more okay with it. I think I surprised her a little bit, given a lot of my concerns about the state of the world. But I also feel like throughout history, there have been bad times, wars, and one of the joys for people has always been children. And again, I have this confidence, it's probably in this place that we'll figure it out. I have lots of doubts about this. I had a lot of resentment for my parents for bringing me into the world. I was a moody teenager. I didn't ask to be born. Why did you do this? But the reality was they were just kids. They didn't know my mother was still a teenager. They were kids. And I think I can forgive them. It's silly, but my son this was a very calculated decision my wife and I made.
[24:50] Krissie: Right, because you became open to trying. And then kind of like, my husband and I are at this moment right now of like, you're ambivalent, and then you're kind of like, okay, now we're actually trying. And then it's like, oh, well, it's been a while, and actually trying isn't actually working. And it's like, how many steps do you actually take now to have the child? And you and your wife decided to go down the path of IVF. Can you walk me through that decision process? Because I know for us, it's been a constant conversation about, what are we willing to do? What are we willing to do to have children or a child.
[25:33] Matthew: I feel like we noticed that our desire changed from ambivalence to act of wanting a child. I'll tell the story about we were visiting her parents in San Diego, and she thought she might be pregnant, but she didn't want to say anything because it was way too early. So we're out to dinner. So she couldn't refuse alcohol because she didn't want to tip her sister or her mother. So I would be sneaking sips of her wine at dinner. Nobody would have any clue. And it was like this huge little production that we did to keep people from asking, but this could be happening. And we built it up in our heads. We bought a pregnancy test, and right before we flew back to Colorado, we realized we weren't going to need the test. But we were both very disappointed that it didn't happen. And we had a sadness about that, and the possibility built up a little bit, and we decided, this is something we want. We kept trying for a year, and by 2019, we started the process of doing IVF. It didn't really get rolling until 2020 after the pandemic, but that's kind of the timetable. That's how it happened. And IVF, as you probably know, it's a lot of work. We are in the process now of doing another round of IVF. We've decided we want another kid, and it has been for a guy IVF is easy, to be honest with you. It's really not fair. I go in, I've signed a few papers, I've done a few tests, like a couple of blood tests, and then I'll go in and do my thing, and that's it for the woman. It's a lot of hormones, a lot of shots. It's hard. It's really difficult. And I know starting this all over again, my wife, I hate speaking for her. I wish she were around and she could come down and share herself. But starting this process again has been bringing back some memories for her. She felt like it was a lot easier last time because she was working from home all the time, shut down, and just like, there was a lot on the line. But now circumstances are a little bit different, and she's not going to be able to stay home on days when the hormones are making her feel weird things and she's going to have to motor through. She's really busy with work right now, but she's the strongest person I know. I'm really amazed at you. Wouldn't have this amazing family that we have if it weren't for her. An incredible force of will. We have this beautiful child now. If he wasn't sleeping, it'd be like trading him. Yeah.
[29:08] Krissie: And I think that you've hit on something that the hormones and the ways that it's still not that societally acceptable to be like, hey, I'm going through this process right now. And by the way, there are ways that it affects my hormones and my moods, right. In ways that I wish I could control. And I haven't been through it yet, but I know so many friends. I mean, I've had friends who have gone from the highest of euphoria after they've gotten certain shots to the lowest of depression in a matter of days. And yet you're going into an office, you can't take off all that time. Yeah, it can be probably very stressful. I'm very lucky. Like, I do work from home, although it'll be interesting if and when we go down that path, because I'm a coach, and I do one on one life and leadership coaching, or I run leadership development training, so I can only imagine I'm with a client or something and about to break down. And I have a lot of tools that I've learned over the years of the growth work that I've done and the coaching training that I've done to manage that. But you don't know until you know, right? Like like, you don't know what those hormones are going to do to you until you're in the moment, about to burst into tears on a coaching client by some really irrelevant thing that they might have done or maybe that you want to react in a much larger way than you might typically react. Something they say pisses me off, and I want to react in anger. I can just imagine the array of situations that could occur, which is funny because I haven't actually thought of that until right now. So I appreciate you bringing it up.
[30:54] Matthew: I know I tend to have a weird sense of humor, which for the most part my wife appreciates. But also, if something is making me uncomfortable or if there's an awkwardness, I have a way of joking about it, of poking at it. I know sometimes that doesn't always go over well. I mean, not just when she's hormonal, but it's certainly worse. But that's my own stuff that I got to work on. But I got to not be such a button pusher about something. I'm saying this just to remind myself to go easy on my poor wife. This next month is when she's going to be into it.
[31:44] Krissie: Well, actually, I love that you're bringing this up because I've had some friends who have been recently pregnant or pregnant in the past, and people going through IVF and other things, and the women's hormones are all over the place, right. And some people have said, oh, my God, my wife is just like the biggest bitch in the world. She's never been this way. Right. But you as the man are kind of there on the whole process. How do you support yourself so that you can support her?
[32:22] Matthew: Oh, that's a really good question. I know my wife and I were both really big believers in therapy and just working on yourself. I feel like I'll probably be in therapy until I'm dead. I really appreciate the relationship I have with my therapist. I appreciate the relationships I've had with my therapists in the past. They've given me some skills to help me navigate things. I know for me, I'm someone who struggles with depression sometimes. I'm one of those people that I hate to say it, but the physical activity really helps with that. If I can keep moving, I have a running shoulder for the little guy. And being able to run with him and do that with him has really kept me sane in a lot of ways. So as far as the most important self care for me, being able to get these runs in and there's like a bit last month where there was a lot of ice on the roads, we had a very dreary January here, so I wasn't getting out as much, and I could definitely feel. So that's something I do. And I want to make throw in a quick caveat. I recognize my just good luck or privilege that I am somebody who is able to run and do this, because it's not that easy for everybody. A lot of people struggle with depression, and that isn't an option. And I hate the oversimplification of, oh, just get up and get going. It's not that easy. Sometimes I can't get my shoes on. It can be really difficult. Once I get my shoes on and get out the door, I can just. Go and go and go, but it's not that easy. So I have to take care of myself so I can be there for my wife. And I'm not always the best at that. She would tell you, but I think it's just so important to listen and just be there. And even though I know intellectually, a lot of times when she's having a hard day and she's breaking down, that she just needs to vent, there's this man part of my brain that, how can I fix this? And it can be really frustrating for me if she's talking about something to do with work, and I can't help her with work stuff, and it makes me feel helpless, and I hate that feeling. But I just need to remind myself being there is a help.
[35:14] Krissie: Hallelujah to being there. I mean, your presence can be a gift, right, and can actually just be the thing that someone needs. Have you seen the video? It's actually quite hilarious. I will send it to you after this, and I'll put it in the show notes too. It's basically a woman who has, like, a nail sticking out of her forehead, and she's just like and there's the man across from her, and she's like, I just have this constant pain in my head, and I keep nagging my sweaters. And the man is like, Maybe it's the nail. She's like, It's not the nail. And my husband and I watch this every now and again to remind each other that sometimes it's not about the damn nail. Sometimes it's just about holding space and being present and listening. And we've actually created a bit of a back and forth where it's like, in this moment, do you want me to just hold space or would you like me to problem solve? Actually, in our relationship, I think I'm much more of the sort of male energy in some ways, where I go to fixing things and rescuing and let me solve it and let me ask you all the questions. So I really had to learn to be and listen. And he'll tell you I've gotten a lot better at it, but it's not always what I go to. So I try to make sure that I know from him if it's a time that he wants to problem solve or it's a time that he wants me to listen. And he's getting much better at saying, like, hey, I just want you to listen right now. I'm like, okay. And I think he does that for me too. So it's such a great thing. Just holding space is so needed.
[37:01] Matthew: I'm a big venture. I can get frustrated when things that I think should be easy aren't. I totally get the need to just vent. And I can be frustrated, too, when my wife will be like, oh, well, why don't you do it?
[37:19] Krissie: I'm like, no, but I find myself.
[37:25] Matthew: Doing the same thing that frustrates me so, again, I'm always a work in progress.
[37:31] Krissie: We're always totally well, but I love what you thought about that. You have tools and are learning tools through therapy and other things of how to be. Sometimes we're wired more to go towards the problem solving or in the grad school I went to, we learned about this model of human interaction called the drama triangle. So it's basically like a lot of human relationships and interaction end up in this dramatic triangle of rescuer, which is kind of what we've just been describing, persecutor and victim. And so when we go to rescue people, it's like it's actually something that we have not identified, that we need to be with and maybe work on for ourselves, but we see something about that in another person, and so we want to fix them instead. But then oftentimes what happens is you try to rescue, and the persecutor is like, I don't want your help. Screw you, or whatever. Or the person gets treated as, like, the victim of, like, oh, I'm going to help solve all of your problems. But then the person doesn't actually need to solve anything on their own, because the rescuer is going and solving all of them for them anyway. And so it kind of creates this self fulfilling prophecy where the victim stays the victim, the rescuer stays the rescuer, the persecutor stays the persecutor. It's fascinating, and if you look at human interactions, so many of them fall into that triangle. I'm a recovering rescuer myself. So I'm hearing you say I'm like, yeah, I relate to that. Yeah. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is about identity, because I think that you've had this really interesting arc. I heard you go from this bicyclist vagabond to musician, actually, to now kind of stay at home dad. And I'm curious how all of those identities are still with you or how you kind of feel yourself to be now in the world. Like, how do you identify right now?
[39:36] Matthew: Dad.
[39:37] Krissie: Dad.
[39:38] Matthew: It's pretty much it.
[39:39] Krissie: I know you say as I see, like, seven musical instruments behind you on Zoom, I see a bass.
[39:47] Matthew: Interesting background.
[39:50] Krissie: So I'm like, no, I love it because I see a bass. I see two acoustic guitars, an electric guitar, and what's the thing sticking up right there? The floor?
[40:01] Matthew: Yeah, my tally.
[40:04] Krissie: Okay, nice.
[40:06] Matthew: Electric guitar. I got electric bass up there.
[40:08] Krissie: That's electric bass? Yeah. Okay, so your primary identity is dad, and I also see all these musical instruments behind you. I just wanted to note that I.
[40:18] Matthew: Will share in my mind the whole time my wife was pregnant, and we were thinking about being a stay home dad, like, oh, I will play songs for him, and he will sit there adoringly and listen. And no, that never happens. I start to strum a guitar. I can't really play the piano, but I have a couple of keyboards or work on a keyboard bit and he just comes over, he'll bang the keys or yank the strings, and it's not really anything that happens. I also know if I hit a bad note, he's like, oh, I'm done. He's a very tough audience. It's not at all like I imagined. I knew it was going to be hard. I knew it was going to be difficult. It was way more difficult. I really thought I could do more of the stuff that I like to do. The music. I thought I would still have time to. Yeah, I'm not going to be playing in bands anymore. I'm not going to be hitting the road with the guys, but I'll still be able to compose. Maybe I'll just not been able to find the sustained time for that creativity that I would like to have. The desire is still there for me. I've always been someone who just I need to create. I need to be doing art, and music was the easiest way for me to do that. I've also really enjoyed doing landscape photography. That was something that was really fun, just bringing a camera along with me, and I enjoyed that. And that's also something I haven't had much time to do. I'm not able to go backpack in a couple of days to get the shots that I would like to get, and that's just not feasible right now. But he's getting older. He'll eventually be old enough where he can spend a night or two with my mom and maybe I'll be able to start doing that stuff again. I don't know if we have another one. There'll be a couple more years and I'm okay with that. Yeah, it's going to be there. I'll be older, but I feel like I'm taking fairly good care of myself. I feel like I'm still going to be able to do a lot of these things that I want to do, and I need to remind myself of that sometimes because I definitely miss the old me a lot.
[42:56] Krissie: What do you miss about them?
[42:58] Matthew: The freedom, the ability to just go. And I used to like leaving in the middle of the night and sleep in my car a little bit, get up at 03:00 in the morning and be towards the top of a mountain by the time the sun comes up. I mean, that sort of freedom. It wasn't as easy as I will romanticize it. I still had dogs. I still had responsibilities. To do something like that still involved significant negotiation with my wife because what if she's doing something and she can't watch the dogs? What if she wants to come with me? Then need to find a dog sitter. It's not like I could just snap my fingers and go. It's never that simple. But it was certainly more of an option. I missed being on the road. I was hanging out with a bunch of guys playing Rowdy music across the south. They'd like to stay up late and drink cheap beer. And I was always like, I'm going to get up early and go for a run. And I was very much a square peg in that world. But I still miss it, that camaraderie of being on the road with people. I'm a fairly mediocre musician, in all honesty, but I'm good enough that I can play with some incredible talents over the years. The best spot at a show is sitting there in the rhythm section and letting the amazing people play. And right next to you, that is such a thrill. I was able to do that.
[44:47] Krissie: As we've been talking, I've just noticed that you've come alive a few times during this conversation. One, like, talking about your son in the brief moments that you brought him up. And then right now talking about the music, like your face and your body language. It's just like alive. I'm curious. You talk about the things that you miss. What do you feel like you've gained by being dad?
[45:11] Matthew: I've gained so much. I mean, perspective is number one. The future is so different when you're thinking about the future for someone who's significantly younger than you. I maybe have, what, between 20 and 40 years left?
[45:30] Krissie: Listen, I'm living to 100, so you got a lot more than that in my book.
[45:37] Matthew: Okay, maybe I have another 50 some odd years, maybe. But my son is going to see so much that I will never be able to imagine. And I have this perspective now of I don't know, I'm thinking of there's this degree where people say, oh, getting older and being a parent will make you a little bit more conservative, and this, that, and that certainly isn't happening with me. But I certainly understand how a parenting I've always been like, a safe driver, but when there's a kid in the car, I'll definitely be even more vigilant, and I'm certainly even more frustrated than I have been about people who drive selfishly. For instance, I'm like, just why can't people be considerate of the fact that there's other people who maybe have kids in the car who don't want to drive 80 miles an hour and 45? I mean, I'm sorry, there's some of that, but I think other things that I've gained, just the joy of watching him grow and learn. I know. Thinking about what will I talk about for this podcast? Part of me wants to warn people about what they stand to lose because I feel like they hear so much about the joys and the wonder and it's all true, how difficult they can be. He's getting like they lie to you about the terrible twos. It starts way earlier than two years old. It can be so difficult sometimes. He's a really tall kid. There's not a lot of safe spaces to put stuff anymore. Like anything on the kitchen counters. He can get to now focusing on cooking dinner. And I look over and he somehow was able to get scissors out of a drawer the other day. I'm like, oh, so this is another project. We're going to have to rearrange the house to get the sharps out of his reach. And again, I think another primary caretaker might be a lot more proactive than I am. But I'm a reactive person. This needs to be dealt with, and I'll deal with it rather than locking all the cabinets ahead of time. Maybe that's the fault of mine. As a parent, I'm open to that. I know that there are some parenting groups that would give me a hard time about my more laissez attitude about childproofing, but there are parenting groups who.
[48:29] Krissie: Would come down on pretty much any type of parenting anybody does. So, yeah, often those groups have a lot of high sense of superiority and think that they're doing it all right, but I think everybody's just doing the best they can.
[48:45] Matthew: So, yes, it's so difficult. It's so hard. I'm not able to write like I wanted to write. I'm not able to compose music like I want to compose, and, oh, for me and all that stuff, it's all true. But the joy just watching him learn and he can be really terrible sometimes, but he can also be really sweet. He's not talking much. He only has, like, five or six words, but he understands so much more. You can give him fairly complex instructions, oh, will you get that particular toy and bring it to that particular toy? And he will do that. Or like, oh, give your mom a kiss is the new thing. And he's like, oh, okay. He knows what that means. He'll go across the room and give his mom a kiss, and that's really sweet. Or we'll pick up something. I'm like, oh, that's trash. And he'll walk it across the room and put it in the trash. It's great. He's being helpful and cute. He also will put things in the trash that don't belong in there. Something goes missing, probably in the trash. I'm just trying to get in the habit now, looking in the trash just to see if I miss something. But I know some people might be into the idea of having a baby because they're cute and they're grammarable and they're sweet. I'm really enjoying the idea of raising a person that's just getting started. Like, he's just starting to develop, like, a personality and will of his own.
[50:30] Krissie: And I think what you're hitting on right there is when my husband and I have talked about why we might want to have a child, that's it.
[50:42] Introduction: It's right there.
[50:42] Krissie: It's like raising a human being, like seeing a human emerge. There's something that feels very it feels, like, tender and exciting and wild, like a wild ride. So I appreciate you sharing that. Well, this has been fantastic. I feel like we're we're pretty much a time here, but is there is there anything else that you would want to share with folks who are on this journey of parenting, thinking about it, wondering if they should do it that you've learned or thought about?
[51:19] Matthew: I think anyone who's ambivalent needs to just do a thought experiment with how okay they will be if they're extremely extroverted people. Do they have a reliable babysitter, a mother, mother in law that they can count on for like a Friday or Saturday night kind of thing? I mean, my wife and I were not extroverts. We're very introverted, so that hasn't been an issue for us.
[51:47] Krissie: But my husband and I are big extroverts, so thank you for that one.
[51:52] Matthew: It's important to think about, and I know some extroverted people who became who are amazing parents, who amazing children, and they did fine. They worked it out. I think a big part of that is just their parents that were helpful or other friends with kids like, oh, yeah, I can take your kids for the night if you want to do that. And there's these whole networks that parents are able to work it out that I think it'd be very difficult for me to try and find someone to take the kid for a night. But fortunately that's not too big a deal for us, so I think people need to sit with it. And again, for me, the whole, like, oh, the state of the world is I feel kind of silly talking about it, but it is something that weighed on me a lot, and I had to choose hope. And it's not like a choice that I made and it's a choice that I'm continuing to make daily. I'm constantly choosing hope. I'm constantly choosing to understand. Yes, the world is rough and it's not going to be easy, but a challenging world is going to need good people. And hopefully if I do everything right, my child will be one of these good people to make the world maybe a little bit better. I don't know. Maybe that's what I'm going to do in my life. I've talked a little bit about my resentment about not having a career. Yeah, it's there, but also maybe my role in life is to be a supporting character in an arc that's more important than me. I talked a little bit about music. I'm not someone that's going to do any solos, but I can hold down the rhythm section so that the people who are really good at the guitar or mandolin or pedal steel can do what they're going to do and shine. And I'm okay with that because I'm still right there, and I'm okay with being in a supporting role so my wife can work and provide for this beautiful home that we have and this beautiful son that we have. And I'm okay with that. I am very at peace with the fact that maybe my role is just to be like a really good dad, a little guy, and I'm not perfect. I struggle with this, that and the other thing. And I'm sure he's going to have plenty to talk about when he ends up going to therapy later.
[54:39] Krissie: They all will. I would love for every human to go to therapy. That would be such a great gift. Or coaching one or the other.
[54:46] Matthew: I'll have some complaints about my parents, but they were doing the best that they could. I'm going to do the best that I can do. And by the time he's older and perspectives have changed, hopefully he'll be a little forgiving and realize I was doing the best that I could do. I can't wait to see how it happens for him. I can't wait to see maybe he'll have a sibling, maybe he'll get to be a big brother, I don't know. But it's exciting. I certainly have an excitement for the future that I didn't have before, so that matters to me.
[55:27] Krissie: Well, I love that. And I love that you are thinking about your being as part of supporting your wife, your kid, the musicians that you've played with. That is a big role and it's very cool that you're embracing it. So it has been such a pleasure to talk to you, Matthew. I really appreciate you taking this time.
[55:51] Matthew: I appreciate being able to talk through a lot of these feelings that I've had percolating over the last several years. Thank you for giving me a chance to put a voice to that.
[56:01] Krissie: Absolutely. They are truly a gift and I think they're going to be a gift to more than just me. So thank you.
[56:11] Introduction: Hey, that is a wrap. Good to be with you. Our guest, myself or you. I hope you're there if you have ideas for this podcast, things you want me to talk about, stories that you want to share. I am so, so open to bringing guests on, to having conversations, especially with other people who are ambivalent moms, who ambivalent moms to be, or who are on this journey toward motherhood, whatever that may look like for you. So hit me up on the gram. I am Chris Mack. That's K-R-I-S-S-M-A-C on. Instagram. And don't forget to ask to get curious and share with me. Whatever you're getting curious about, I want to hear about it.