Return to Office: Bagels, Spreadsheets, and the Productivity Pendulum

After a long hiatus, Frank and Paul are back behind the mics for The Busyness Paradox, and this time they’re diving into one of the most divisive workplace topics of the moment: Return to Office mandates. From federal policies to corporate culture shifts, they explore who’s calling employees back, why some companies are thriving without it, and how different setups affect productivity, mental health, and team dynamics.

Along the way, they detour into:

•Paul’s 18-month spreadsheet project to track Justin Wuntake desk time.

•Whether free bagels count as a legitimate return-to-office perk.

•Why scanning all your home appliance manuals into AI might just change your life.

•Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee’s surprising success story with a fully remote workforce.

•The pendulum swing between remote flexibility and in-person mandates — and where it might land next.

With their usual mix of humor, practical insight, and side quests into AI, textbooks, and podcast improv competitions, this episode is part catch-up, part workplace commentary, and all Busyness Paradox.

Come visit us at busynessparadox.com to see episode transcripts, blog posts and other content while you’re there!

Transcript

TBP - RTO - July 2 2025

00:00:00 Frank Butler: Okay, here we go. On today's episode of The Busyness Paradox, Paul builds a spreadsheet to measure how often just in one take actually sits at his desk. Also, a heated debate erupts over whether free bagels count as a return to office incentive.

00:00:20 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:00:20 Frank Butler: And finally, we don't mention the soul crushing reality of commuter traffic, not even once. That is on today's episode of The Busyness Paradox. It's business. It's business time. 000 hello busy bodies. Welcome to another episode of The Busyness Paradox. I am Frank Butler here with Paul Harvey.

00:00:57 Paul Harvey: Good day.

00:00:58 Frank Butler: Good day, Paul. And as mentioned on today's episode, we are going to be talking about how Paul created a spreadsheet to keep track of, you know, how often and how long just in one take sits at his desk, which we've discovered is not long at all.

00:01:16 Paul Harvey: I've been working on this spreadsheet for about 18 months, Frank and I. I think it's ready to go.

00:01:23 Frank Butler: It is ready to go. That is fantastic. 18 months. Man. That's crazy. So,

00:01:26 Paul Harvey: Now.

00:01:26 Frank Butler: speaking of 18 months.

00:01:28 Paul Harvey: I was told there was going to be bagels, Frank.

00:01:30 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:01:31 Paul Harvey: I came back to do this episode because I heard something about free bagels.

00:01:35 Frank Butler: Well,

00:01:35 Paul Harvey: I see no bagels.

00:01:37 Frank Butler: yeah, but that's that's because they're here in Chattanooga and

00:01:40 Paul Harvey: Oh

00:01:40 Frank Butler: you're

00:01:40 Paul Harvey: my

00:01:40 Frank Butler: up

00:01:40 Paul Harvey: God.

00:01:40 Frank Butler: there in, in New Hampshire. But, um.

00:01:43 Paul Harvey: That would

00:01:44 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:01:44 Paul Harvey: explain it. Yeah. All right. All right.

00:01:48 Frank Butler: So, uh, you mentioned 18 months you've been working on this spreadsheet. And as our listeners might note, we've taken a bit of a hiatus. Um, and I think, you know, there's been several contributing factors to that hiatus. Um, I can certainly say that I think I over boarded myself with a lot of things. Um, I was tapped to lead the strategic planning for the university, which is a heavy lift. There's no question about that. And

00:02:20 Paul Harvey: That's a big job.

00:02:21 Frank Butler: yeah, and I think, you know, I think there's some burnout, but it was not related to the podcast, just generally because there was so many moving parts and trying to keep all the balls in the air. And, um, I think probably sacrificed the wrong thing, like the podcast to do. It brings me joy, and I love talking about these things, but.

00:02:38 Paul Harvey: And isn't that what always happens? This should be a future episode, by the way.

00:02:42 Frank Butler: That

00:02:42 Paul Harvey: How

00:02:42 Frank Butler: is.

00:02:43 Paul Harvey: I'm thinking of times where people were like, you know, you're overextended. Let's see what we can take off your plate. And then proceed to list all the things you enjoy. Like, yeah, sure. Take away all the things that I like because someone else will do those

00:02:56 Frank Butler: True.

00:02:56 Paul Harvey: things or whatever and leave me with the crap like that's even worse, you know?

00:03:01 Frank Butler: That is.

00:03:02 Paul Harvey: But.

00:03:02 Frank Butler: I didn't even think about it. But you're spot on, right?

00:03:04 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:03:05 Frank Butler: It's like the things you actually like. Man. That's wild.

00:03:08 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:03:08 Frank Butler: Um, jeez, I didn't even think about it that way. And that's

00:03:12 Paul Harvey: But we

00:03:12 Frank Butler: that's

00:03:12 Paul Harvey: do it

00:03:13 Frank Butler: so

00:03:13 Paul Harvey: to

00:03:13 Frank Butler: realistic.

00:03:13 Paul Harvey: ourselves, like you just

00:03:14 Frank Butler: We

00:03:14 Paul Harvey: said.

00:03:14 Frank Butler: do. We

00:03:15 Paul Harvey: I

00:03:15 Frank Butler: do?

00:03:15 Paul Harvey: mean, this is our fun side project thing. I mean, you know, you do have to put your actual job ahead of your fun side projects sometimes, but, you know, it was a good time for hiatus anyway. You know, we we had kind of hammered away on a lot of the topics of that post-Covid time frame, I think.

00:03:39 Frank Butler: Yes.

00:03:40 Paul Harvey: And, you know. Sometimes there's something to be said for letting life just happen. And then, you know, you don't want to force discussions on things. And time has passed. And there are. topics we can revisit. There are new topics and

00:03:58 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:03:59 Paul Harvey: who knows what else we can talk about.

00:04:01 Frank Butler: Yeah. You know, I know you. You took on a lot of new class preps, which people

00:04:06 Paul Harvey: Hmm.

00:04:06 Frank Butler: probably don't know how taxing and and how much of a heavy lift that really is. People are like, oh, all you do is teach. Well, the reality is

00:04:13 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:04:13 Frank Butler: that we want to do a good job. This is our

00:04:16 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:04:16 Frank Butler: job, right? And we put in countless of hours to make sure that we are the experts in the areas that we're teaching.

00:04:23 Paul Harvey: Yeah. You know, you think about even if you just do a ten minute presentation at work one day, you probably put a fair amount of work into that ten minute presentation because you're, you know, the spotlight's on you, and you don't want to look like an idiot and

00:04:35 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:04:35 Paul Harvey: you want to do a good job.

00:04:37 Frank Butler: That's

00:04:37 Paul Harvey: So

00:04:37 Frank Butler: correct.

00:04:37 Paul Harvey: you kind of extrapolate that out over a 15 week semester. It does add up some. You can half ass it, but.

00:04:46 Frank Butler: We try not to.

00:04:47 Paul Harvey: Try not to. And it's not going to be a very fun experience if you do so

00:04:52 Frank Butler: Know

00:04:52 Paul Harvey: for anybody.

00:04:54 Frank Butler: that

00:04:54 Paul Harvey: Oh,

00:04:54 Frank Butler: we

00:04:55 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:04:55 Frank Butler: did record an episode

00:04:57 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:04:57 Frank Butler: at Southern Management Association in San Antonio last year, and it was a spectacular episode on AI and its impact on people. Unfortunately, uh.

00:05:10 Paul Harvey: Specifically hiring people, training people, HR practices and I. Yeah.

00:05:14 Frank Butler: Yep.

00:05:14 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:05:14 Frank Butler: And unfortunately, uh, we had some audio issues which will be sorted this year because this year we are going to be sponsored at Southern Management Association, which we are thrilled about, and we'll reveal the sponsor as it gets closer. But we are absolutely tickled. And that topic will be again on AI and HR. Um.

00:05:37 Paul Harvey: And where will we be recording that from? It's somewhere in South Carolina

00:05:39 Frank Butler: Greenville,

00:05:39 Paul Harvey: this time.

00:05:40 Frank Butler: South Carolina.

00:05:41 Paul Harvey: Greenville, South Carolina.

00:05:43 Frank Butler: It's

00:05:43 Paul Harvey: I don't believe I have been there before.

00:05:45 Frank Butler: it's idyllic. It is a

00:05:46 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:05:46 Frank Butler: beautiful environment. Um, it is in Clemson's backyard.

00:05:50 Paul Harvey: Oh. No kidding.

00:05:51 Frank Butler: So we will be seeing a lot of orange, I think. But you know, I'm used to that being in Tennessee.

00:05:59 Paul Harvey: That's true. Kind of near your neck of the woods, relatively speaking.

00:06:03 Frank Butler: Not that I enjoy that being a Georgia Bulldog and a Florida State Seminole.

00:06:10 Paul Harvey: Yeah. I can't really say. Try being from in New Hampshire, but yeah, it's not. It doesn't hit the same because no one cares about that stuff up here. Yeah,

00:06:22 Frank Butler: Yeah,

00:06:22 Paul Harvey: yeah,

00:06:22 Frank Butler: football is a religion down

00:06:24 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:06:24 Frank Butler: here, right? In college sports in particular. So, um, yeah, no, I like I said, it's just it's just kind of good to to flex our podcast muscles again and be behind the microphone and talk about things that we love to talk about. And I think to that end, one of the things that that Paul and I were just chatting about was We're probably going to expand some of the stuff that we talk about, just things that we're interested in that are related to the workplace, not just about busyness, but about business, which is kind of going back to our original episode. The etymology of the word busyness comes from business, and you know this, this will open it up. But I think, you know, in today's environment, too, AI is going to be a prevalent topic. Not that we're going to be hitting on that today necessarily, but.

00:07:15 Paul Harvey: Yeah, that's a relevant thing to bring up that during this hiatus, we've never stopped talking about episode topics and ideas. We just have not really been moved or logistically able to. Sit down and record something. But we've never stopped, uh, kind of charting out the, you know, potential future of the show in terms of topics and areas to focus on and stuff like that. And it's hard to get away from I. And I think, like probably most people listening, speaking for myself, I guess I don't really have a firm handle on I like I don't even know if I think it's a good thing or a bad thing. And I think most people probably feel that way. Mixed emotions, like the potential is incredible. The scary aspects are scary.

00:08:10 Frank Butler: I use it. Regularly these

00:08:14 Paul Harvey: Do

00:08:14 Frank Butler: days.

00:08:15 Paul Harvey: you? Yeah.

00:08:15 Frank Butler: Um, as as a. You know, I don't use it as much for work purposes. Although what I will do is I will take like an assignment that I've created and feed it into it and go help me make this a little easier and clearer to understand, because what's in my brain sometimes does not translate well to what students will do. And what I'll usually do is when I create a new assignment, I'll test it based on how I think it should be, and I'll put that in the syllabus. And then once I kind of get a vibe for how the students are, are they responding in the way I expected them to? Then I will make revisions. But now I've been having AI help me with the structure side of it. So I put all the content in and it helps me organize it in a way that's a lot clearer, I think. And so I've been using it for that. But but more so I've been using it for my consulting side where

00:09:02 Paul Harvey: Hmm?

00:09:02 Frank Butler: I help it with where I have it, help me with ideation. Right. Like, um, if I'm trying to come up with a strategic objective, some sort of Smart goal for a type of organization, I'll feed in this kind of information like, you know, this is the type of organization it is. Here's what I'm thinking for that strategic objective. But it might be a little too wordy, or it might not be as

00:09:23 Paul Harvey: Hmm

00:09:23 Frank Butler: clear as

00:09:23 Paul Harvey: hmm.

00:09:24 Frank Butler: I'd like it to be. And I'm like, give me like five options to choose from. And usually what I'll do is I'll take from 2 or 3 of them to create my own based on what it's ideating for me. Uh, and so I think there's a lot of prompt engineering experience that goes into

00:09:38 Paul Harvey: Hmm hmm.

00:09:38 Frank Butler: that. And, and knowing that I can't just trust what it gives me. I need to go in there and modify it where I know. Then it's in the tone of the organization I'm working with. But again, it's still like I am not letting it create it from scratch. I'm going in there going, this is what I think it needs to be around. Give me some things that might sound better or, you know, whatever, just so I can make sure that I'm getting the best foot forward. Especially because it's just me, right? Like when I'm doing this kind

00:10:07 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:10:07 Frank Butler: of work, it's just me. And I want to make sure that in essence, it gives me somebody else to

00:10:14 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:10:14 Frank Butler: work

00:10:14 Paul Harvey: it's

00:10:15 Frank Butler: with

00:10:15 Paul Harvey: like a.

00:10:15 Frank Butler: without paying them a lot of money, which I you know, that's the downside to that. I mean, I pay the $20 a month

00:10:22 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:10:22 Frank Butler: for ChatGPT. Um.

00:10:25 Paul Harvey: I mean, if you're using it to make your life 1% better, then I think it's $20 well spent.

00:10:32 Frank Butler: Yes.

00:10:33 Paul Harvey: Um, I went to a workshop last week, and I think the best thing I have ever heard and I still haven't done this, but I plan to. Is, you know, you can make these, like your own little modules. What do you call them? A chat calls it one thing. And I've been messing around with Claude. But same idea you like give it. You kind of have, like a recurring entity within the AI thing. So it's like you create like a dedicated facet of your account that's like, okay, now you're my assistant for this specific thing. Anyway, the guy was saying that he, uh, uploaded all scanned and uploaded all of his product manuals from stuff around the house. So he's like, how the hell do I turn this on? How do I fix this? Instead of looking up the manual, trying to find it, can't find it, go download it. Skim through the whole thing, trying to find the part you're looking for. You can just ask the AI, like how do I get the blender to turn off or whatever I'm like, that is as like a middle aged dude. The best thing I've ever heard.

00:11:40 Frank Butler: Listener. You can't see my facial expression, but I just literally had to scrape my jaw off the floor because I had not considered that in

00:11:47 Paul Harvey: Uh.

00:11:47 Frank Butler: the past. And that is by far Holy crap, I've got like a cabinet full

00:11:53 Paul Harvey: Yes.

00:11:53 Frank Butler: of nothing but friggin product manuals,

00:11:56 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:11:56 Frank Butler: and now I just want to scan all of them in

00:11:58 Paul Harvey: Yup.

00:11:58 Frank Butler: and just how's that in my ChatGPT?

00:12:01 Paul Harvey: And I've even started scanning them just so I could thin out the pile of, uh, build up manuals that I've got.

00:12:08 Frank Butler: The best is if you can go download the PDF version

00:12:11 Paul Harvey: Aw,

00:12:11 Frank Butler: and just

00:12:11 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:12:11 Frank Butler: upload it that way too. Oh

00:12:12 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:12:12 Frank Butler: my God.

00:12:13 Paul Harvey: First option, see if you can just download PDF.

00:12:15 Frank Butler: All right

00:12:15 Paul Harvey: Most

00:12:15 Frank Butler: folks,

00:12:15 Paul Harvey: of the

00:12:15 Frank Butler: we're

00:12:15 Paul Harvey: time

00:12:15 Frank Butler: done.

00:12:15 Paul Harvey: you can.

00:12:16 Frank Butler: This episode

00:12:16 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:12:16 Frank Butler: is

00:12:16 Paul Harvey: we're

00:12:16 Frank Butler: over.

00:12:16 Paul Harvey: done

00:12:16 Frank Butler: That

00:12:17 Paul Harvey: here.

00:12:17 Frank Butler: is that is the that is the takeaway of the episode

00:12:19 Paul Harvey: That

00:12:20 Frank Butler: right

00:12:20 Paul Harvey: I mean, honestly,

00:12:20 Frank Butler: there.

00:12:21 Paul Harvey: this was like a three hour workshop I went to. I left after like an hour. I'm like, I've gotten all I need. I'm going to go scan my manuals.

00:12:28 Frank Butler: I.

00:12:28 Paul Harvey: This is. Yeah.

00:12:29 Frank Butler: Holy schnikes man. All I gotta say is that that is the best takeaway ever, folks. Thank you for listening to the Busyness Paradox.

00:12:36 Paul Harvey: Honestly,

00:12:37 Frank Butler: Like and subscribe. We're done.

00:12:38 Paul Harvey: nothing

00:12:39 Frank Butler: Have

00:12:39 Paul Harvey: else

00:12:39 Frank Butler: a great

00:12:39 Paul Harvey: we're going

00:12:39 Frank Butler: day.

00:12:39 Paul Harvey: to say is going to impact your life that much.

00:12:43 Frank Butler: My life has just changed for oh my goodness anyway.

00:12:47 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:12:47 Frank Butler: Wow. Well, here's here's the funny part. You know, and I always thought you were going to

00:12:51 Paul Harvey: We

00:12:51 Frank Butler: go into

00:12:51 Paul Harvey: just said

00:12:51 Frank Butler: also.

00:12:51 Paul Harvey: we weren't going to talk about AI.

00:12:52 Frank Butler: Yeah. Well there you go. I

00:12:53 Paul Harvey: There

00:12:53 Frank Butler: thought

00:12:54 Paul Harvey: you

00:12:54 Frank Butler: you

00:12:54 Paul Harvey: go.

00:12:54 Frank Butler: were going to get into the voice of it, you know, and I had for those the little intro topics I fed in, you know what the topic for today was? I did this in ChatGPT. Although I do love Claude for certain things too, I think. Claude if so, for the listeners out there. I love Claude for things like coming up with mission statements and so on, because it really does do a really nice job with that. Now, ChatGPT has got its benefits, and sometimes it's cleaner and some of the things, but Claude will sit there and explain things in a way, and I just love how it does that. But neither here nor there. I use ChatGPT to help me come up with those three little things that would be covering, you know. But I tweaked them, right? Like, the original one didn't have just in one take in there and Paul and stuff like that. So I made some modifications to all of them. So I don't I just don't take it at face value. I am using it to help me with ideation because let's face it, I'm not a super creative person. And instead of having a team of writers, like a lot of these big professional podcast organizations, do you know, I leverage what assistance I can have. Now, Paul Paul is our more creative one. He's made a lot of the fun ads that we have, um, as we go through those. But, you know, again, I, I'm just not that funny or interesting. Uh, even though I might have one improv at SMA last year,

00:14:14 Paul Harvey: That's

00:14:14 Frank Butler: um,

00:14:14 Paul Harvey: right.

00:14:15 Frank Butler: I'm still not

00:14:16 Paul Harvey: Your

00:14:16 Frank Butler: that funny,

00:14:16 Paul Harvey: your

00:14:17 Frank Butler: but.

00:14:17 Paul Harvey: track record. What's the expression? I'm looking for a contradicts you there.

00:14:22 Frank Butler: I'm one for one. I've never improv in my life, and I took away the the the the crown on that, which is funny.

00:14:29 Paul Harvey: My advice? Retire.

00:14:32 Frank Butler: I think I don't have that luxury this year. I

00:14:34 Paul Harvey: Walk

00:14:35 Frank Butler: think I'm

00:14:35 Paul Harvey: away

00:14:35 Frank Butler: being.

00:14:35 Paul Harvey: while you're at the top.

00:14:37 Frank Butler: But what's so funny is I thought you were going to get into the voice of, you know, getting ChatGPT to take on your voice or sort of be more

00:14:45 Paul Harvey: Oh.

00:14:45 Frank Butler: personified. And I thought that was where you're going initially. And what was so funny about it is that I told, you know, when it gave me those three and like I said, I modified them, but they were so good right out the gate. Right. Because I was like, you know, the prompt was I was like, I need an intro for a podcast podcast episode. Much like how they do with Top Gear, they list three things that are covered. One isn't covered at all, the other two are silly and minutia. Our topic is the podcast will be about return to office mandates, which is what we're going to be sort of getting into a little bit.

00:15:15 Paul Harvey: I

00:15:15 Frank Butler: Um,

00:15:15 Paul Harvey: like it's kind of like an Arrested Development

00:15:17 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:15:17 Paul Harvey: thing. Like next time. And, you know, it's a bunch of stuff that doesn't actually happen. Like I

00:15:21 Frank Butler: Exactly.

00:15:21 Paul Harvey: like that.

00:15:21 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:15:21 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:15:22 Frank Butler: And I love Top Gear and those guys. So I was like, man, you know, they always say good artists copy, great artists steal. I'm like, I'm stealing

00:15:28 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:15:28 Frank Butler: it.

00:15:29 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:15:29 Frank Butler: Um, but what was so funny is I was like, perfection, right? That's what I told ChatGPT after it issued it, because it was like, you know, would you like it more snarky, more serious, or with a different tone? I was like, no, this is perfection. And it said, glad to hear it. Carry on. Captain of cubicle comedy.

00:15:45 Paul Harvey: Nice.

00:15:46 Frank Butler: And I just frigging died laughing at that and said, let me know if you need a closing line. Show notes or a LinkedIn teaser to. Match.

00:15:54 Paul Harvey: Nice.

00:15:54 Frank Butler: So I'm going to say give me a closing line, you

00:15:57 Paul Harvey: Nice.

00:15:57 Frank Butler: know, and I'll read that to you guys at the closing of this episode.

00:16:02 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:16:02 Frank Butler: Um, but I'm going to read it on Unadultered, like, you know, because again, I tweaked those, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna. Yes. Anyway, that

00:16:11 Paul Harvey: All right.

00:16:12 Frank Butler: said, uh, we said we weren't going to get into it, but, uh, honestly,

00:16:15 Paul Harvey: Yeah. 15 minutes later.

00:16:17 Frank Butler: it was. It's hard to avoid. Right? It's just a

00:16:19 Paul Harvey: It

00:16:19 Frank Butler: hard thing

00:16:19 Paul Harvey: is.

00:16:19 Frank Butler: to avoid

00:16:19 Paul Harvey: You can't

00:16:19 Frank Butler: in today's

00:16:19 Paul Harvey: avoid

00:16:20 Frank Butler: environment.

00:16:20 Paul Harvey: it. That's the thing. Yeah.

00:16:21 Frank Butler: Um, but switching gears, I did want to talk about return to office. Um, we're seeing these mandates coming in like crazy right now. The federal government sort of led the way, um, with with the new administration. And that's how they want things to be. And, you know, after a lot of people had moved in a lot of cases. Right. And I've been reading a ton of stories on, on Reddit and so on. Where and in the news, right. I'm not just following Reddit and getting all my sources from Reddit, but I've seen even in the news and stuff like that, people talking about how, you know, this return to office, they had moved further out so they could be in the countryside. You know, they got their home office set up, all this kind of stuff, and all of a sudden they're being called back and they're having to commute in five days a week, and their commutes are now like two hours each way, or in some cases, like they're across the country and it's impossible and blah, blah, blah. And so it's very disruptive. And, uh, and here's the thing. It's like, you know, Paul and I tend to take a pretty broad stance on, you know, organizations should adapt themselves to the different expectations of their employees. Be a little bit more flexible, right? Because, I mean, that's sort of what people want today. So you got some people who do want to be in the office, some people who thrive not working in the office. And it's like, if you want to maximize productivity, try to meet the people where they're going to be most productive, right?

00:17:45 Paul Harvey: See, I think there's a complicating third factor has, to me at least, kind of worked its way into the equation since last time we talked about this, which is the the people who think they thrive in one environment or the other.

00:18:01 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:18:01 Paul Harvey: I mean, I'm mostly thinking of the I've just, in my own personal life, become aware of a number of individuals who believe that they are better off working from home, but they're clearly not. And that's understandable. You know, it's if working from home for you means you're always available, like you're you're working home or now the same place. That kind of sucks. And if you live by yourself or something and you're not socializing with anybody, like that's not very healthy either. But it's easy to get kind of trapped into that. Like you almost get like a social anxiety. We all went through a version of this during Covid, like we're so used to not being out and about among people that we kind of don't want to for a while, and then you do it and you're like, oh, wait, yeah, this is actually kind of nice to like, talk to people in person, you know. And I, I don't know what to make of, of that twist on things. But I do think for some people, a forced kick in the butt to get back into the office and at least sometimes on we've talked about the benefits of structure in the past. Like if there's a if it adds an element of structure to your life and it's not like a, an absolute withdrawal of a promise that like, yeah, you'll always be able to work from home. Like, now we changed our mind. Now you got to come in like, that's that's not cool.

00:19:21 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:19:22 Paul Harvey: But, you know, I, I guess my thinking on it has, has gotten more gray than it was in the past. And I still, I agree with what you're saying. The ideal thing would be to match the what works best for the employees that you've chosen to hire.

00:19:42 Frank Butler: But yeah, I think that comes to it. Right? It's like it's almost like it's a perk. And you have

00:19:46 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:19:46 Frank Butler: to prove that you're capable of doing it right. Like I said, if you're not being productive, then, you know, and you're in a remote setup. Well then if you're not being productive, then

00:19:56 Paul Harvey: Right.

00:19:56 Frank Butler: we need to think about how do we realign that. I will kind of say, and I'm going to try to get them on for an interview at some point. Um, I'm we a group of us researchers at UTC in the, in the Department of Management are getting unprecedented access to

00:20:13 Paul Harvey: Oh

00:20:13 Frank Butler: the

00:20:13 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:20:13 Frank Butler: blue

00:20:13 Paul Harvey: Right.

00:20:13 Frank Butler: cross blue shield of Tennessee and Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee has essentially gone fully remote outside of some key have to be on site kind of things like, you know, your IT operators and so on. And

00:20:25 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:20:25 Frank Butler: part of that is because they're going to save a huge amount of money on their building, right? Because my understanding is that they're, they're in talks to, to use it for other purposes in which it would take the burden of cost off of them for maintaining that building. So, uh, you know, take

00:20:42 Paul Harvey: Sure.

00:20:42 Frank Butler: it who knows what that is? You know, I know there's a lot of different things going on that they're discussing, but they've had such success in their transition to fully remote. Their productivity is way up, their cost savings are way up, and their ability to deliver more for their insurance provision is incredible. And you know, I know there's a there tends to be a negative stigma with the health insurance world right

00:21:07 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:21:07 Frank Butler: now. You know, you're seeing a lot of negative press out of UnitedHealthCare. Um, you know, ever since

00:21:12 Paul Harvey: Well that's

00:21:12 Frank Butler: the

00:21:13 Paul Harvey: nothing new Frank.

00:21:13 Frank Butler: yeah, I know it's nothing

00:21:14 Paul Harvey: It's

00:21:15 Frank Butler: new,

00:21:15 Paul Harvey: never

00:21:15 Frank Butler: but

00:21:15 Paul Harvey: been a popular industry.

00:21:15 Frank Butler: but it's certainly been amplified post.

00:21:18 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:21:19 Frank Butler: Luigi

00:21:20 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:21:20 Frank Butler: doing his Luigi ING um with that former CEO or late CEO of UnitedHealthCare. But, you know, again, you know, there's a lot of disdain. But I will say, for example, in our conversations with Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee, um, they are a nonprofit and their their profit margin is only 2.5%. Right. And so to give you, you know, folks, an understanding that they are trying to manage costs so they can continue to deliver a high level of service. And so it's hard to kind of get, uh, too bent out of shape. But there are a lot of others that don't work that way. Right. I mean, and I've had a good experience with them here. I can't speak for other versions of the Blue Cross Blue Shield, because in each state they're

00:22:06 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:22:07 Frank Butler: sort of established as their own entity.

00:22:10 Paul Harvey: And

00:22:10 Frank Butler: Um.

00:22:10 Paul Harvey: the insurance regulations are so different from in

00:22:15 Frank Butler: State

00:22:15 Paul Harvey: the US

00:22:15 Frank Butler: to state.

00:22:15 Paul Harvey: from

00:22:15 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:22:16 Paul Harvey: state to state that it's really an apples to oranges comparison to. To say this company is this way like well

00:22:23 Frank Butler: Right,

00:22:24 Paul Harvey: in

00:22:24 Frank Butler: right.

00:22:24 Paul Harvey: what regard and what location? Yeah.

00:22:27 Frank Butler: Right. And so, you know, I think that's obviously important to consider as we talk about this. But again, you know, I think for their perspective, they're hiring people across the country when it helps them with delivery of terms of time. Right. Like the time zone stuff they're able to provide much longer hours of operation. Um, you know, there's there's just a lot of benefits. And they're also able to get the best people for a role versus just having people from an area. Right. So instead of just being able to hire from that 500,000 pool in the metro, and of course, obviously all 500,000 people are not going to be ideal for that one position they might be looking for. You know, if, let's say customer

00:23:10 Paul Harvey: Right.

00:23:10 Frank Butler: representative, it might be a few hundred. And of those, is there really anybody who's going to be perfectly suited for it? Well, they can cast that net much wider and and really tap into getting the best person for the job. So again, I would love to get them on at some point, but I'm going to wait until we can get something published, um, off of that first and

00:23:35 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:23:35 Frank Butler: then then we can have them on and have something to talk about. But kind of going down this idea of return of office. Here's just an example of some of the companies who are going back to this. And this is a five day old article from Business Insider, and it says the list of major companies requiring employees to return to office from JP Morgan and TikTok to Amazon. Now, I will say, what was interesting to me is some of these companies on here, Amazon was not a huge surprise.

00:24:02 Paul Harvey: Now

00:24:02 Frank Butler: Amazon.

00:24:02 Paul Harvey: JP Morgan either. They were one of the early ones.

00:24:04 Frank Butler: Yeah. And it says here that, um, CEO Andy Jassy or however you say Andy's last name wrote in a September 16th memo that Amazon would end remote work starting in 2025. They've gone fully back. And, you know, and that's their prerogative. Um, I their culture is certainly much more we've talked about it the firing using AI and there's AI again right. They used AI to fire people. But you know, their culture is is very rigid. I would say they're not. They're so focused on the bottom line that I guarantee they do have spreadsheets about how often somebody sitting at their desk, because they certainly do keep track of how long your pee breaks are. So.

00:24:47 Paul Harvey: What was the, uh. I read a book written by a former Amazon employee maybe a year and a half ago. I think it probably came out 2 or 3 years ago. It made kind of a splash at the time. Um, I'll look it up. If anyone wants to learn more about Amazon's culture, maybe we can put that in the show notes. It's an entertaining book. It gets into some like, You know, particularly skeevy individuals and stuff. But for the most part, it's paints a picture of someone who worked at Amazon for a lot. I don't remember how long, ten, 15 years or something. Was successful there. Had good things to say about it, but paints a pretty, I guess I assume honest picture that, you know, it's not for everybody. Yeah, it does seem like the sort of company culture that would want everybody where they can see him.

00:25:42 Frank Butler: You know, we could probably get somebody on that worked at Amazon, one of my former VP participants, and he's going to be in VP 2.0. Um, so for those of you who don't know, that's the Veterans Entrepreneurship program. We do a 2.0 for those who've graduated from our program. Um, he's having wild success in Nashville as a tour operator. Um, in fact, I'm going to be doing my first tour with him in a couple of weekends, uh, Because I'm going to go over to Nashville to, to to see him in action. He's been killing it though. Um, but he used to work as a project manager at Amazon, and maybe we'll have to have him on. And he's a he's a funny guy, so he'd be a great guest. Uh, and he's been having great success. Um, and so it'd be probably great just to have him on anyway. And, uh, but he was a project manager, and we could certainly, uh, ask him questions about his tenure with Amazon. I know it was not favorable, but, you know, it was. It paid well, that kind of

00:26:41 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:26:41 Frank Butler: stuff. But, you know, again, he's a veteran and they they definitely like to hire veterans because of that, you know, more sort of commitment to action or whatever you want to say. So there was that um.

00:26:55 Paul Harvey: Exit interview is the name of the book I was thinking

00:26:57 Frank Butler: Oh.

00:26:57 Paul Harvey: of. Exit Interview the Life and Death of My Ambitious Career by Kristi Coulter.

00:27:02 Frank Butler: Oh.

00:27:03 Paul Harvey: Entertaining. Account. You wouldn't think like someone who was a manager at Amazon for a long time. Like, you know, people talk about their job and you're like, oh my God, kill me. It. It's not like that. It's a surprisingly, it's one of those books that gets a. Page turner, I guess you could say. And, uh, yeah, I liked it. I was going to actually, I was thinking about assigning it in my undergraduate. You know, management class. The thing is. There's a lot of f bombs in it, and. Like hard f bombs where she's, like, referring to the carnal act that way. And I kind of wish it wasn't there because it's like, you know, you just took, like. A PG 13 book and made it like a hard R for. Not really any good reason, but I. Guess that's just her writing style. So, you know, don't listen to the audiobook if. You got kids in the car, but, uh, it's a.

00:27:58 Frank Butler: He means hard are not in the sense of what some people might know it as, but in terms of R-rated, R-rated movies.

00:28:04 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:28:04 Frank Butler: Just FYI.

00:28:04 Paul Harvey: Are actually like mid-sentence. I was like trying to change course and use a different term, but I was like, no, I can't come up with anything

00:28:11 Frank Butler: He

00:28:11 Paul Harvey: else.

00:28:11 Frank Butler: committed

00:28:11 Paul Harvey: So I'm

00:28:12 Frank Butler: to

00:28:12 Paul Harvey: just

00:28:12 Frank Butler: it.

00:28:12 Paul Harvey: go. I'm committed to it at this point. Yeah.

00:28:14 Frank Butler: She's not referring to their using the the hard R on that word, but rather the rating of a movie. And,

00:28:23 Paul Harvey: Yes.

00:28:23 Frank Butler: um, but you know, they're

00:28:25 Paul Harvey: Hard

00:28:25 Frank Butler: adults.

00:28:25 Paul Harvey: R rating.

00:28:25 Frank Butler: I mean, this is my take. The way I view my students is they're adults. They're all over 18.

00:28:30 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:28:31 Frank Butler: They got to get exposed

00:28:32 Paul Harvey: Yeah

00:28:32 Frank Butler: to it. So.

00:28:32 Paul Harvey: I if it if it like fit the story she's telling better I, I

00:28:39 Frank Butler: Uh,

00:28:39 Paul Harvey: wouldn't

00:28:39 Frank Butler: there you

00:28:40 Paul Harvey: have

00:28:40 Frank Butler: go.

00:28:40 Paul Harvey: cared

00:28:40 Frank Butler: See,

00:28:40 Paul Harvey: but

00:28:40 Frank Butler: that's.

00:28:40 Paul Harvey: it's just like well you were too busy blankety blanking your blankety blank like. Yeah. You know, you just kind of took it in a direction it didn't need to go. And it's,

00:28:50 Frank Butler: Yeah. Unnecessary. Their

00:28:51 Paul Harvey: you know. Yeah,

00:28:52 Frank Butler: gratuitous

00:28:52 Paul Harvey: I can

00:28:53 Frank Butler: use

00:28:54 Paul Harvey: gratuitous

00:28:54 Frank Butler: of the f word.

00:28:55 Paul Harvey: use. Yeah,

00:28:55 Frank Butler: Gratuitous

00:28:56 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:28:56 Frank Butler: use.

00:28:58 Paul Harvey: And plus it's like, you know, you want to kind of analyze what they're saying. It's like, yeah, but this is also the person who was talking about. Bonking or somebody's assistant or whatever, you know, just like, yeah, she just kind of went blue a few times

00:29:16 Frank Butler: So

00:29:16 Paul Harvey: where.

00:29:17 Frank Butler: don't dip your ink and don't dip your wicking company ink or whatever it is.

00:29:22 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:29:22 Frank Butler: Yeah,

00:29:22 Paul Harvey: That kind

00:29:23 Frank Butler: yeah,

00:29:23 Paul Harvey: of thing. You

00:29:23 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:29:23 Paul Harvey: know, it could have been handled more tactfully, I guess. But, you know, when you're when your audience is like 19, 20 year old college students, like, you know, what parts are going to stand out to them. Like, I don't want that to

00:29:34 Frank Butler: If

00:29:34 Paul Harvey: be

00:29:34 Frank Butler: they

00:29:35 Paul Harvey: the

00:29:35 Frank Butler: read

00:29:35 Paul Harvey: takeaway

00:29:35 Frank Butler: it at all these days,

00:29:36 Paul Harvey: if

00:29:36 Frank Butler: let's just

00:29:36 Paul Harvey: they.

00:29:36 Frank Butler: be honest.

00:29:37 Paul Harvey: Yeah. No, they would have ChatGPT summarize it, but.

00:29:40 Frank Butler: I just I just did a review for a chapter for a new textbook. Um, and I'm not going to give out what subject area it was. It's not core management. I'm not going to give out, you know, which publisher. But all I can say is that I was reading it and going, I don't even want to read this. The students sure as heck are not going to read it.

00:29:59 Paul Harvey: Oh that's it. Yeah. You know, the textbook I was involved with writing. At one point I was thinking the same thing. I don't really want to read what I'm writing. Textbooks are just.

00:30:09 Frank Butler: If they're done right with great examples, but there weren't even any worthwhile examples in here like things.

00:30:14 Paul Harvey: That's

00:30:14 Frank Butler: There

00:30:14 Paul Harvey: the

00:30:14 Frank Butler: wasn't

00:30:14 Paul Harvey: thing.

00:30:14 Frank Butler: even any numbers that, like, were eye catching. Like, tell me how expensive

00:30:18 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:30:18 Frank Butler: this would be if this isn't managed correctly, how much does this cost? You know, like something that's.

00:30:23 Paul Harvey: And to be fair, part of that comes, I think, from the publisher. Like they do not want you to break the mold when it comes to a textbook. Like we've identified a market segment that could use that has room for another book that does this, do write a book that does that.

00:30:38 Frank Butler: I

00:30:39 Paul Harvey: Just

00:30:39 Frank Butler: want

00:30:39 Paul Harvey: like these

00:30:39 Frank Butler: to

00:30:39 Paul Harvey: other books did. And don't don't get creative. Yeah.

00:30:41 Frank Butler: yeah.

00:30:41 Paul Harvey: It sucks.

00:30:42 Frank Butler: I want to do a graphic novel around international management and focusing

00:30:45 Paul Harvey: Yes.

00:30:45 Frank Butler: on the, the, you know, cultural side of it because I think, you know, that's it's all about interacting with people. And I feel like that would be such a great, a great way of conveying that. Right. You know, you minimize the text.

00:30:57 Paul Harvey: And people would read that

00:30:58 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:30:58 Paul Harvey: to. too.

00:30:59 Frank Butler: Yeah. And you know, and catching is definitely, you know, been one of those that's done some great graphic novels. We've talked about the, uh, we talked to him and, and, uh,

00:31:07 Paul Harvey: Is

00:31:08 Frank Butler: Larry Thornton.

00:31:08 Paul Harvey: a former former guests on the show.

00:31:11 Frank Butler: Yep,

00:31:11 Paul Harvey: Dave Ketchen and Larry Thornton.

00:31:13 Frank Butler: yep. You know, that was a great episode. It was it

00:31:15 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:31:15 Frank Butler: was really fun. So here's one that surprised me on the toe, though. Uh, Apple. You know, I, you

00:31:21 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:31:21 Frank Butler: know, we tend to see Apple's being a little bit more progressive in how they do things. But let's be honest, like when I thought about it more, I actually was less sort of surprised by it. So Apple saying that that people need to come back for at least three days a week.

00:31:35 Paul Harvey: And they've been consistent about that, like since Covid. They said, we're going to get we want you all coming back at some point. And it was kind of controversial at the time. But they've they've stuck to their guns on that. Yeah.

00:31:47 Frank Butler: Right. And, you know, and also when you think about the campus that they built, their new donut

00:31:53 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:31:54 Frank Butler: or spaceship or whatever you want to refer to their new

00:31:57 Paul Harvey: Not

00:31:57 Frank Butler: campus.

00:31:57 Paul Harvey: that new anymore, but. Yeah.

00:31:59 Frank Butler: Um, they designed it, you know, to be a collision center, you

00:32:04 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:32:04 Frank Butler: know?

00:32:04 Paul Harvey: To encourage interaction.

00:32:05 Frank Butler: Yeah. And, you know, it's the same for, like, Pixar. Pixar was designed for collision. And of course, both are connected to Steve Jobs. And and I don't think necessarily there's there's anything wrong with thinking

00:32:17 Paul Harvey: Know

00:32:17 Frank Butler: about

00:32:18 Paul Harvey: if

00:32:18 Frank Butler: you're in

00:32:18 Paul Harvey: you're

00:32:18 Frank Butler: an industry

00:32:18 Paul Harvey: a creative

00:32:19 Frank Butler: that has to

00:32:19 Paul Harvey: company?

00:32:19 Frank Butler: innovate. Yeah. You got

00:32:20 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:32:20 Frank Butler: to create.

00:32:20 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:32:21 Frank Butler: Right.

00:32:21 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:32:22 Frank Butler: Um, but, you know, and then at the same time, I think about, like, health insurance, I'm like, yeah, how how much do you need people to collide when they're doing customer service? Right? Let them

00:32:30 Paul Harvey: Right.

00:32:30 Frank Butler: be in an environment in which they're going to answer the phones and make sure that the customers are being taken care of, or the doctor's offices or whatever. And anyway, not

00:32:40 Paul Harvey: What

00:32:40 Frank Butler: a

00:32:40 Paul Harvey: interests

00:32:40 Frank Butler: surprise.

00:32:40 Paul Harvey: me about this, though, is that so many of these examples and the articles that you read and the things that people talk about on in the news, podcasts, whatever, they often tend to be tech companies or finance companies. And I wonder, is that just because those are two industries that have gaggles of reporters following them and writing about

00:33:01 Frank Butler: Oh,

00:33:01 Paul Harvey: them,

00:33:01 Frank Butler: that's a good question.

00:33:01 Paul Harvey: or is it something about those industries? Because on the surface, they don't necessarily jump out as industries that would fall one way or the other. That would be very hardcore work from home or very hardcore return to office.

00:33:18 Frank Butler: So let

00:33:19 Paul Harvey: But.

00:33:19 Frank Butler: me read you then. The companies that aren't falling into those two categories.

00:33:22 Paul Harvey: Hmm.

00:33:23 Frank Butler: And these these might come as a little bit of a surprise to you. Chipotle.

00:33:28 Paul Harvey: Hmm. Well, obviously for the food service part, that doesn't apply. But I assume you mean like the corporate

00:33:38 Frank Butler: I'm

00:33:38 Paul Harvey: back end.

00:33:39 Frank Butler: that's the corporate right. And

00:33:40 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:33:40 Frank Butler: they're saying workers are going to have to be in the office four days a week.

00:33:43 Paul Harvey: Hmm.

00:33:44 Frank Butler: Um.

00:33:44 Paul Harvey: Which even that is, you know, going back to our, uh, McKinsey in economics episode, A step in the Right direction, that They

00:33:52 Frank Butler: Well.

00:33:53 Paul Harvey: there still the expectation of a fifth day of of work and you know fine. But

00:34:00 Frank Butler: I

00:34:00 Paul Harvey: you

00:34:00 Frank Butler: probably.

00:34:01 Paul Harvey: could argue that if you're given that flexibility on a fifth day and that becomes normal, like, well, that's still a step in the right direction. But

00:34:08 Frank Butler: We hope

00:34:08 Paul Harvey: we

00:34:09 Frank Butler: in

00:34:09 Paul Harvey: hope.

00:34:09 Frank Butler: the food chain it's also KFC. So Kentucky Fried Chicken or once was called KFC Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's now I don't think,

00:34:16 Paul Harvey: That

00:34:16 Frank Butler: called Kentucky Fried

00:34:17 Paul Harvey: now

00:34:17 Frank Butler: Chicken. I think it's

00:34:17 Paul Harvey: is

00:34:17 Frank Butler: just

00:34:17 Paul Harvey: not the

00:34:18 Frank Butler: KFC.

00:34:18 Paul Harvey: yum brands.

00:34:19 Frank Butler: It's owned by yum brands. Correct.

00:34:20 Paul Harvey: Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:21 Frank Butler: Um, is part of the move. The company is recalling about 90 remote US employees to the office, and

00:34:26 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:34:26 Frank Butler: said they'd be placed at a campus where their work happens.

00:34:31 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:34:31 Frank Butler: Um, let's see. Here's another one. Disney. Uh, going back to four days a week in office again, I'm avoiding all of the IT or financial firms. Starbucks

00:34:43 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:34:44 Frank Butler: going down that salad chain Sweetgreen is shifting

00:34:48 Paul Harvey: Mm

00:34:49 Frank Butler: to a four day workweek.

00:34:50 Paul Harvey: mm.

00:34:51 Frank Butler: Uh, Toyota. Um, Walmart.

00:34:56 Paul Harvey: The car company?

00:34:59 Frank Butler: Uh, and that's, you know, that's just some of the big ones, right? And of course, there's

00:35:02 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:35:02 Frank Butler: a lot of tech and finance firms on there to to Paul's point. So certainly some things there and you know, and again, I certainly thinking about it understands some of the, the ideas of why you want people to return to work. And I think part of it is I think people struggle when they when they can't see what their people

00:35:22 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:35:23 Frank Butler: are doing, even though there's a lot of different ways to, to measure performance.

00:35:28 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:35:28 Frank Butler: Um, and, you know, you and I have argued this in the past, output versus just time

00:35:32 Paul Harvey: Yep

00:35:32 Frank Butler: and seat,

00:35:33 Paul Harvey: yep.

00:35:33 Frank Butler: which is why I love that Excel example so much that because I didn't even

00:35:38 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:35:38 Frank Butler: prompt it with that, I was just like, I didn't even

00:35:40 Paul Harvey: That's

00:35:40 Frank Butler: tell

00:35:40 Paul Harvey: amazing.

00:35:40 Frank Butler: it would podcast. So it didn't even look up who we were.

00:35:42 Paul Harvey: Huh?

00:35:43 Frank Butler: It just kind of it kind of went with it. But, uh, you know,

00:35:47 Paul Harvey: But

00:35:47 Frank Butler: I.

00:35:47 Paul Harvey: yeah, we don't practice what we preach here. We hold our our own employees to the strictest, uh.

00:35:53 Frank Butler: Poor Justin, man, I tell you, we certainly.

00:35:56 Paul Harvey: Yeah, yeah. I don't envy him.

00:36:00 Frank Butler: Were hard asses, just FYI, folks. Um,

00:36:02 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:36:04 Frank Butler: but, you know, here's the other thing I keep thinking about too, is all the ancillary stuff, right? As I mentioned earlier on, two hours commuting, you know, all this stuff. And and it certainly takes a toll on that. The mental health side. Right? I mean, like, one of the things that, uh, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about my world is that I get to work from home, and I'm certainly much more productive at home for several reasons. One is I don't keep having people come to my office and just wanting to shoot the breeze. Two I'm not losing 40 minutes going to work and 40 minutes coming home, so I feel more refreshed as well.

00:36:41 Paul Harvey: Now, that's an interesting thing. I, I have decided I firmly fall into the side of. I'm better off going into the office

00:36:49 Frank Butler: Well, because

00:36:49 Paul Harvey: more

00:36:49 Frank Butler: you get

00:36:49 Paul Harvey: or less every day.

00:36:50 Frank Butler: sidetracked

00:36:50 Paul Harvey: But I'm like.

00:36:51 Frank Butler: by everything.

00:36:54 Paul Harvey: Yeah, but I don't have a 40 minute commute is the big thing. Like,

00:36:58 Frank Butler: Oh.

00:36:59 Paul Harvey: I

00:36:59 Frank Butler: That's

00:36:59 Paul Harvey: live

00:36:59 Frank Butler: true.

00:36:59 Paul Harvey: a mile, mile and a half from my office. Like, I locked myself out of the house one day so I couldn't drive my truck or get into the house. So I had to walk to work, and that was a viable possibility. It took me like 45 minutes. It was fine. That's honestly not something I had considered about why I feel like I'm just better off going into the office five days a week, because it's like a five second commute to get there. Yeah,

00:37:24 Frank Butler: That's useful.

00:37:24 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:37:25 Frank Butler: I mean, that would

00:37:25 Paul Harvey: That

00:37:25 Frank Butler: be

00:37:25 Paul Harvey: is

00:37:26 Frank Butler: that.

00:37:26 Paul Harvey: that's relevant.

00:37:27 Frank Butler: That'd be nice. And especially because for you, you know, your commute is short and you still have like like you feel like you're in the woods with where you live. Right. I mean, you

00:37:35 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:37:35 Frank Butler: got privacy.

00:37:36 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:37:37 Frank Butler: If I lived five minutes from my work, I would be staring into my neighbor's. Well, actually, I'd be hearing them through the walls because there's not, like, a lot of, you know, space because urban campus and all. Um,

00:37:51 Paul Harvey: Yeah, yeah.

00:37:52 Frank Butler: and I relish the peacefulness of where we live with the cow pasture and the cows mooing and not seeing

00:38:03 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:38:03 Frank Butler: my neighbors, you know, that kind of stuff. So.

00:38:07 Paul Harvey: Honestly, that's been one of my bigger gripes is especially in the summertime ever since Covid, I don't know if it's like this where you are. We've at University of New Hampshire, at least in my, uh, in the business school, never really returned to the level of like people being there at any given point in time and in the summers in particular, like I was in the office yesterday and a good three hours went by before I saw another person. So I'm like, so I just kind of went from like one quiet, isolated area to another quiet, isolated area. But, you know, it's just how it is.

00:38:40 Frank Butler: Yeah, I think summers are, for us, are relatively dead from a student perspective. Um.

00:38:44 Paul Harvey: Yeah, we have like no summer, hardly any summer class offerings or anything. So the students are gone and it's nice, it's peaceful, but sometimes it's a little too peaceful.

00:38:53 Frank Butler: It's very heavily online for us. And part of it's because people go home, you know, and they're working and we want them to work, you know, so they can get that experience.

00:39:02 Paul Harvey: Oh, yeah. I mean, they all go do internships and everything. It makes sense.

00:39:05 Frank Butler: But yeah. Exactly. So anyway, it's it's

00:39:07 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:39:07 Frank Butler: very interesting. But you know, like from again from my side, it's like, you know, if I have to go in every day I have to deal with it. And the traffic has gotten so much worse. The area I'm in has been growing like exponentially. They're buying

00:39:18 Paul Harvey: Um.

00:39:18 Frank Butler: up the farms and building all these new neighborhoods and.

00:39:21 Paul Harvey: You know, I've noticed recently hearing more people talking about being from Chattanooga, like, just randomly, like a guest on a show or something. I'm from Chattanooga. I just moved to Chattanooga. I'm like, I never heard about this place except from the song and from when Frank moved there. And now all of a sudden, I hear it all the time.

00:39:38 Frank Butler: It's. Yeah, I mean, we were definitely blossoming, there's no question. But I mean, that comes with the cons, right?

00:39:43 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:39:43 Frank Butler: Is that we're

00:39:44 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:39:44 Frank Butler: growing,

00:39:44 Paul Harvey: Yeah. It's a good problem to have, but it's.

00:39:45 Frank Butler: right?

00:39:46 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:39:46 Frank Butler: I mean, I'm certainly not overwhelming. Uh, overwhelmingly upset, but I am kind of like, you know, I'm seeing these neighborhoods get up closer and closer to us, and I'm like, man, that's just

00:39:56 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:39:56 Frank Butler: more traffic, more traffic.

00:39:57 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:39:58 Frank Butler: Um, but, you know, I think from that sense, it's like, you know. I know people were not happy with the return to office. I know some people are happy. I think the challenge is, is that, um, I see some companies like Blue Cross Blue Shield, who are just excelling in not going that route. And and of course, I think, you know, we could always get into that idea of person organization fit. You know, if you want a more remote kind

00:40:22 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:40:22 Frank Butler: of job,

00:40:23 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:40:23 Frank Butler: you can certainly find it still. And there's still a lot of opportunity there. But man, change is hard, right? People don't like change. And this is one of those

00:40:30 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:40:30 Frank Butler: things that introduces a lot of change. And especially if you had moved with the promise of you'd have that remote capability and now it's being retracted. That's that's where it gets real bad, right? Because then it's like, can you quit your job? Do you have that luxury? Especially right now when you're seeing. And here it is again. Right. You're seeing people being laid off. And a lot of these jobs largely because of AI. Um,

00:40:54 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:40:55 Frank Butler: you

00:40:55 Paul Harvey: That's

00:40:55 Frank Butler: know,

00:40:55 Paul Harvey: true.

00:40:55 Frank Butler: but

00:40:55 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:40:56 Frank Butler: more

00:40:56 Paul Harvey: It's

00:40:56 Frank Butler: so in the software side. But, you know,

00:40:58 Paul Harvey: it's

00:40:58 Frank Butler: still.

00:40:58 Paul Harvey: too too kind of crazy. Once in a generation. Once in a century. Like a changes coming at the workforce at more or less the same time. It's all this AI stuff and this, you know, we're still I kind of feel like the pendulum is swinging again in terms of, uh, return to office mandates and such, like we, you know, maybe went too far one way, and now we're going to go too far the other way,

00:41:26 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:41:27 Paul Harvey: and then

00:41:27 Frank Butler: The

00:41:27 Paul Harvey: we'll

00:41:27 Frank Butler: swing

00:41:27 Paul Harvey: come

00:41:27 Frank Butler: of

00:41:27 Paul Harvey: back

00:41:27 Frank Butler: the pendulum.

00:41:27 Paul Harvey: again and

00:41:28 Frank Butler: Right?

00:41:28 Paul Harvey: we'll go back again. Um, but yeah, the, the AI component wasn't really there. The first couple swings of that pendulum during Covid. I mean, obviously it was a thing that existed, but not in the way that it does now. And it's an interesting time to be alive and just to be watching this stuff, because no one knows how it's going to shake out and no one knows what the right answer is on any of this stuff. But, uh, it's not going to stop us from having opinions and

00:41:57 Frank Butler: Right?

00:41:57 Paul Harvey: mocking people who disagree with us.

00:41:59 Frank Butler: Well, you know what they say about opinions. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one, right? Sorry. That was bad.

00:42:06 Paul Harvey: Yeah. See? There you go. Going blue. Just like the, uh.

00:42:09 Frank Butler: Hey, at least I censored it a little

00:42:10 Paul Harvey: That's

00:42:10 Frank Butler: bit.

00:42:11 Paul Harvey: true. That's true.

00:42:11 Frank Butler: Um, just real quick. So I'm going to. I had a list of pros for return to

00:42:16 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:42:16 Frank Butler: office, and I have a list of cons, and I'm going to just

00:42:19 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:42:19 Frank Butler: read them to you,

00:42:21 Paul Harvey: Let's

00:42:21 Frank Butler: and

00:42:21 Paul Harvey: hear.

00:42:22 Frank Butler: you go, you tell me how. Give me, give me essentially a thumbs up for it's a big deal or a thumbs down if it's not that big of a deal. Right to your perspective. Right. And again, this there's no right or wrong. So face to face interaction this is pros of return to office. So face to face interaction.

00:42:38 Paul Harvey: I think that's the biggest deal.

00:42:40 Frank Butler: Right. So I'm thumbs up on that too right. Like

00:42:42 Paul Harvey: Yep

00:42:42 Frank Butler: I think that's the that's a huge benefit.

00:42:44 Paul Harvey: yep.

00:42:44 Frank Butler: Even though I'm very, very much introverted, we still are social animals. At the end of

00:42:49 Paul Harvey: Yep

00:42:49 Frank Butler: the day,

00:42:50 Paul Harvey: yep.

00:42:50 Frank Butler: we're tribal. And so you're part of a tribe then. And so I think there is something

00:42:54 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:42:54 Frank Butler: to that even even with introversion, stronger

00:42:57 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:42:57 Frank Butler: team bonds.

00:43:01 Paul Harvey: Potentially a big deal.

00:43:03 Frank Butler: Yeah. And I go, you know, I've got strong bonds with people I don't ever see, though, you know

00:43:08 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:43:08 Frank Butler: what I mean? Like, I've got I've got people I work with that I just, I don't spend any legitimate face to face time with them. And yet

00:43:16 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:43:16 Frank Butler: we've got a great relationship, you know, in terms of working relationships. So I'm kind of mixed on that one, right. Like I don't think being physical necessarily is the crux there. I think if you've got if you just build that relationship and trust, you can do that through any medium these days.

00:43:33 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:43:33 Frank Butler: Really.

00:43:33 Paul Harvey: Up.

00:43:33 Frank Butler: right. So, yeah, I'm with you. It's kind of like a. Possibly. I think for some people, maybe more so

00:43:38 Paul Harvey: For

00:43:38 Frank Butler: than

00:43:38 Paul Harvey: some

00:43:38 Frank Butler: others.

00:43:38 Paul Harvey: people more than others, for

00:43:39 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:43:39 Paul Harvey: some types of work, more than others. But I wouldn't call it an across the board

00:43:44 Frank Butler: Right. I agree.

00:43:46 Paul Harvey: pro. Yeah.

00:43:47 Frank Butler: Um, so and then the last one under the enhanced collaboration and team dynamics. Improved collaboration.

00:43:54 Paul Harvey: And again,

00:43:56 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:43:57 Paul Harvey: you know, I not to keep going academic, but most of the collaborative work I've ever done going back 20 years now has been remote. That doesn't mean I don't wish sometimes that I could just walk down the hall and be like, hey, co-author, let's let's hash this out instead of bouncing emails back and forth or whatever. Um.

00:44:20 Frank Butler: That's why I set up a zoom call these days. Let's just let's just

00:44:23 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:44:23 Frank Butler: hash it out. Or a phone call. Let's

00:44:24 Paul Harvey: Which

00:44:24 Frank Butler: just phone.

00:44:24 Paul Harvey: which

00:44:24 Frank Butler: Let's just.

00:44:25 Paul Harvey: we've always had the phone in our lifetimes. Um, it's perhaps underutilized it, but, um. Yeah, I put that in the nice to have category, but I don't know. Again, it depends on the type of collaboration you're talking about, but, um, I wouldn't call that an essential benefit for most people, I don't think.

00:44:49 Frank Butler: Um, okay, I, I completely agree, so let's. Uh, let's let's do this the next step. And again, I think some of these I'm going to try to go through these because, you know, we're 45 minutes in. So I want to make sure that we're mindful too. But

00:45:05 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:45:05 Frank Butler: let's let's kind of go through these a little faster. And are they a surprise to you or not. So this one's now career development and growth. Now I will be honest and say I had not thought really about these. And so this is why I want to introduce these first one mentorship opportunities. This is again pros of return to office

00:45:22 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:45:22 Frank Butler: I think that's a surprise.

00:45:24 Paul Harvey: That's legit.

00:45:24 Frank Butler: Yeah it's legit right

00:45:25 Paul Harvey: Um.

00:45:25 Frank Butler: I didn't think about it. But I'm like yeah that's actually true right. You

00:45:28 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:45:28 Frank Butler: you can

00:45:28 Paul Harvey: I

00:45:28 Frank Butler: model behaviors.

00:45:30 Paul Harvey: Well, we have talked about this before that, you know, like if you have, you know, you see your boss every day a bunch of times and your coworker is remote and doesn't, you know, and someone's getting picked for promotion, you're probably going to have an edge like it. We were talking about it in a different context, different slant on it, but same idea that you form a type of relationship with someone you see in person regularly. That's harder to form remotely.

00:45:58 Frank Butler: Right.

00:45:58 Paul Harvey: I wouldn't say I'm surprised by it. I think that's an

00:46:02 Frank Butler: It's

00:46:02 Paul Harvey: important

00:46:02 Frank Butler: it's

00:46:02 Paul Harvey: factor.

00:46:02 Frank Butler: important. Right. Visibility to leadership.

00:46:06 Paul Harvey: Same idea.

00:46:07 Frank Butler: I mean, I would I'll be honest, I rarely, rarely see the leadership because they're too busy doing other stuff. But you

00:46:13 Paul Harvey: I

00:46:13 Frank Butler: know.

00:46:13 Paul Harvey: think that's probably true for most people. Yeah.

00:46:15 Frank Butler: Yeah. Networking and professional development. Go to conferences, go to trade shows,

00:46:22 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:46:23 Frank Butler: join zooms

00:46:24 Paul Harvey: Depends

00:46:24 Frank Butler: that

00:46:24 Paul Harvey: on

00:46:24 Frank Butler: do

00:46:24 Paul Harvey: your

00:46:24 Frank Butler: that

00:46:25 Paul Harvey: field.

00:46:25 Frank Butler: LinkedIn,

00:46:25 Paul Harvey: But happy

00:46:26 Frank Butler: you know, training.

00:46:27 Paul Harvey: hours.

00:46:27 Frank Butler: Raining.

00:46:27 Paul Harvey: Like, I don't think like there's.

00:46:29 Frank Butler: We have a whole episode on that, by the way, folks, how you

00:46:31 Paul Harvey: We

00:46:31 Frank Butler: can.

00:46:31 Paul Harvey: do.

00:46:31 Frank Butler: Yeah. So, um, we might link that in the show notes if we remember, um, improved work life balance and well-being. So this is this was interesting to me because I've always thought about it the other way as

00:46:43 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:46:44 Frank Butler: a con, but here's, here's the, the pros clearer boundaries.

00:46:48 Paul Harvey: Yeah. I've come around big on this one. I think just like smartphones. Let email work email into our evenings. Like, I think for a lot of people, this has turned their house into their second office. And that can be a real bad thing.

00:47:04 Frank Butler: I, I kind of like it. I also like the idea of we've talked about this in a prior episode too, where they would go and walk around their house and go back

00:47:11 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:47:11 Frank Butler: inside like they're commuting to work. I love that

00:47:13 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:47:13 Frank Butler: idea. Right. So,

00:47:14 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:47:14 Frank Butler: um, and social interaction, obviously there's more social interaction, which

00:47:19 Paul Harvey: Mhm.

00:47:19 Frank Butler: kind of goes back with the face to face interaction. Um, increased physical activity.

00:47:26 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:47:26 Frank Butler: Yeah, yeah.

00:47:27 Paul Harvey: I noticed since you recommended the, uh, Rincon ring,

00:47:31 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:47:31 Paul Harvey: I've noticed the days when I go into the office, if nothing else, the walk from the employee parking lot to my building. But more than that, I just. I get up and walk around more without even planning to or realizing it. Um, whether it's go out to get lunch or something, I don't know, I rack up a lot more steps when I'm in the office.

00:47:54 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:47:54 Paul Harvey: I don't exactly know why, but yeah.

00:47:56 Frank Butler: It's valid. Right? Valid for

00:47:57 Paul Harvey: Yeah,

00:47:58 Frank Butler: sure. Um.

00:47:58 Paul Harvey: yeah.

00:47:58 Frank Butler: Some other benefits. Enhanced company culture. I think, you know, it just depends on how you go about developing it. So

00:48:05 Paul Harvey: Yeah, potentially.

00:48:06 Frank Butler: improved onboarding. Now this is one that,

00:48:08 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:48:08 Frank Butler: um, Blue Cross Blue Shield has done extremely well. And again, I don't I'm not going to give that up. I don't want to be the one who shares their story. Um, but they they've done something incredible to make you feel like you're being onboarded

00:48:22 Paul Harvey: I

00:48:22 Frank Butler: even

00:48:22 Paul Harvey: think

00:48:22 Frank Butler: though

00:48:22 Paul Harvey: this

00:48:22 Frank Butler: it's

00:48:22 Paul Harvey: one

00:48:22 Frank Butler: over.

00:48:22 Paul Harvey: gets a bad name from the early days of the Covid era where there was no planning,

00:48:27 Frank Butler: Right?

00:48:27 Paul Harvey: just all of a sudden they had to do remote onboarding. And by and large, companies sucked at it because we were all figuring it out as we went.

00:48:35 Frank Butler: Yup.

00:48:35 Paul Harvey: I think there's been a lot of progress in

00:48:38 Frank Butler: And

00:48:38 Paul Harvey: terms of how to do that.

00:48:39 Frank Butler: and that's what they said too, is that they were already doing some remote stuff prior to Covid, but

00:48:44 Paul Harvey: That

00:48:44 Frank Butler: but

00:48:44 Paul Harvey: helps. Yep.

00:48:44 Frank Butler: they so they had already had been making investments in this. And they certainly have done a much better anyway. So there's that and then easier coordination and communication. Again, I think that goes back to what you were saying. Sometimes you wish you could just walk down the hall and

00:48:57 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:48:57 Frank Butler: throttle your co-author for.

00:48:59 Paul Harvey: But sometimes it's too easy.

00:49:00 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:49:00 Paul Harvey: Like what you were saying. People just had a colleague that used to call them time vampires, and they just lurk around here in your office door. And next thing you know, an hour and a half has gone by. Yeah.

00:49:11 Frank Butler: If you haven't seen for the listener, if you haven't seen what we do in the shower, in the shadows, not in the showers, what

00:49:18 Paul Harvey: I'm not

00:49:18 Frank Butler: we do

00:49:19 Paul Harvey: familiar

00:49:19 Frank Butler: in the shadows.

00:49:19 Paul Harvey: with that.

00:49:20 Frank Butler: It's a funny show. It's about vampires. It's great. There's a movie version of it, um, from with Jemaine Clement from flight of the Conchords who if you and Taika Waititi.

00:49:29 Paul Harvey: Really.

00:49:29 Frank Butler: So if you know our intro, that's from flight of the Conchords, but Jemaine Clement and Taika Waititi, if you know Taika, he's done the Thor Ragnarok movies and stuff. He's big time director. Um.

00:49:39 Paul Harvey: And so he's in the movie version of that show.

00:49:41 Frank Butler: He's in the movie version.

00:49:42 Paul Harvey: Ah,

00:49:43 Frank Butler: The movie version

00:49:43 Paul Harvey: okay.

00:49:43 Frank Butler: started it off, and then they've taken it to TV show, which is great. I highly encourage it. But instead of a time vampire, there's the energy vampire Colin,

00:49:53 Paul Harvey: Mm.

00:49:53 Frank Butler: and he is fantastic. It's a great show. I certainly, um, I certainly enjoy it. I'm sad that it's over. Um.

00:50:01 Paul Harvey: Mm. I've got to give that a I don't watch much TV. I don't know, like, I no longer have the, like, attention span to sit still and watch something for half an hour or an hour or however long it is. So I started watching one of those episodes and I was like, ah, whatever. But you're like the fifth person in the last year who's told me that it's an awesome show,

00:50:23 Frank Butler: It's

00:50:23 Paul Harvey: so I got

00:50:23 Frank Butler: an awesome

00:50:23 Paul Harvey: to give it

00:50:24 Frank Butler: show.

00:50:24 Paul Harvey: another shot.

00:50:24 Frank Butler: Yeah, it's a

00:50:24 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:50:24 Frank Butler: great show. It's just hilarious. Um, so anyway, um, but, you know, like you, I tend to have shows on and I'll do something mindless on my

00:50:33 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:50:34 Frank Butler: phone at the same time so I can kind of listen to the show. That's where

00:50:36 Paul Harvey: And

00:50:36 Frank Butler: I've

00:50:37 Paul Harvey: you think

00:50:37 Frank Butler: gotten

00:50:37 Paul Harvey: at

00:50:37 Frank Butler: a lot

00:50:37 Paul Harvey: least

00:50:38 Frank Butler: more.

00:50:38 Paul Harvey: me, I think I'm listening. But then you ask me what I just watched, and I've got no idea.

00:50:41 Frank Butler: Yeah. I mean, I think it's just entertainment

00:50:43 Paul Harvey: I'm not

00:50:43 Frank Butler: value.

00:50:43 Paul Harvey: as good at

00:50:44 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:50:44 Paul Harvey: that, but. Yeah.

00:50:45 Frank Butler: Yeah. No, I'm. I'm certainly not great at it. Now, here's the downsides of the cons of

00:50:50 Paul Harvey: I'm there.

00:50:50 Frank Butler: of remote work or of return of office. And so number one, uh, loss of flexibility under that is rigid schedules, missed flexibility and impact on work life balance.

00:51:03 Paul Harvey: Yep. I think the work life balance is at risk. Potentially. Either way. Um, either way, you've got to kind of keep an eye on that and keep the boundaries up, but especially if you're in the two hour commute

00:51:18 Frank Butler: Well that

00:51:19 Paul Harvey: Category.

00:51:20 Frank Butler: that

00:51:20 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:51:20 Frank Butler: goes to number two, which is increased cost, commuting

00:51:23 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:51:24 Frank Butler: expenses, food and clothing expenses and child

00:51:27 Paul Harvey: Yep.

00:51:27 Frank Butler: care costs.

00:51:28 Paul Harvey: Yep. Which is interesting because in the early days of this, again, going back to Covid times, that was a lot of what you heard about was how much potential cost savings there was. The driving and the the clothes and the childcare and the and from the company's perspective, the employer's perspective, office space and everything. And you don't really it seems like you don't. That doesn't come up in the dialogue over this as much anymore. Like the focus is now totally on is it good or bad for productivity? But what about remember all the stuff about not needing the parking lots that that still matters too, right?

00:52:04 Frank Butler: Yeah. And I just think about the increased cost. So now I'm paying for, uh, for gas, you know, and stop and go traffic and then. Yeah, the food. I mean, the clothing, food and clothing. Right. Those are, those are you're eating out. It's definitely more expensive. But to me, the the, um, the the child care is a big one. I mean, I don't have kids, but I know that that's a that's a challenge. Right? But the food and clothing really does, you know, because you're putting more wear and tear. I mean, I wear the same stuff frequently for a couple days in a row if I'm not

00:52:37 Paul Harvey: I

00:52:37 Frank Butler: going

00:52:37 Paul Harvey: my

00:52:37 Frank Butler: in.

00:52:38 Paul Harvey: my old roommate back when we were at Florida State, going on 20 years ago, now retired a bunch of his wardrobe gave me a bunch of clothes. This is Russell Crook, and to this day, 20 years later, that's still those clothes he gave me are still in my regular rotation. You know Russell, he's

00:52:53 Frank Butler: He

00:52:53 Paul Harvey: a he dresses

00:52:54 Frank Butler: he

00:52:54 Paul Harvey: well. He's

00:52:55 Frank Butler: dresses

00:52:55 Paul Harvey: he buys quality

00:52:55 Frank Butler: well.

00:52:56 Paul Harvey: stuff. You know, he's quality clothes. Um, but yeah, even by those standards, I think I'm probably pushing my luck with some of this stuff, but, uh. Yeah, it's I.

00:53:06 Frank Butler: Speaking of Russell, just just as an aside, did you hear he's got a new job.

00:53:10 Paul Harvey: Know.

00:53:10 Frank Butler: He is now the dean of the College of Business at Louisiana State University.

00:53:15 Paul Harvey: Did not know

00:53:16 Frank Butler: Yep.

00:53:16 Paul Harvey: that.

00:53:17 Frank Butler: So,

00:53:17 Paul Harvey: When did that

00:53:17 Frank Butler: uh,

00:53:18 Paul Harvey: happen? Not that our listeners

00:53:18 Frank Butler: a few weeks

00:53:19 Paul Harvey: care,

00:53:19 Frank Butler: ago.

00:53:19 Paul Harvey: but.

00:53:20 Frank Butler: A few weeks

00:53:20 Paul Harvey: Okay,

00:53:20 Frank Butler: ago,

00:53:20 Paul Harvey: cool.

00:53:21 Frank Butler: he got announced

00:53:21 Paul Harvey: I'll

00:53:21 Frank Butler: as

00:53:21 Paul Harvey: drop

00:53:21 Frank Butler: the dean.

00:53:21 Paul Harvey: him a line.

00:53:22 Frank Butler: Yeah,

00:53:22 Paul Harvey: Wow.

00:53:22 Frank Butler: you need to. You need to send him a message. It's a it's a big step.

00:53:26 Paul Harvey: That's awesome

00:53:27 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:53:27 Paul Harvey: man. That's

00:53:28 Frank Butler: He

00:53:28 Paul Harvey: a that's a

00:53:28 Frank Butler: he's

00:53:28 Paul Harvey: real big step.

00:53:29 Frank Butler: going to be great in it, too. He really

00:53:30 Paul Harvey: Yup.

00:53:30 Frank Butler: is going to be great at it. Um, although I wouldn't want to live in Baton Rouge after having visited it. No offense, Russell, but, uh, Baton Rouge was sort of, uh. But I will say Russell's got great taste. He really does like the finer things. He has good quality

00:53:43 Paul Harvey: Yup,

00:53:43 Frank Butler: clothes.

00:53:44 Paul Harvey: yup.

00:53:44 Frank Butler: So he's the clothes you got handed

00:53:47 Paul Harvey: He

00:53:47 Frank Butler: down from him. Now,

00:53:48 Paul Harvey: he.

00:53:49 Frank Butler: to be fair,

00:53:49 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:53:49 Frank Butler: I also have some Brooks Brothers shirts and stuff that I had when I was working corporate back in 2002 and three. That still looked perfectly good. So they're still

00:53:57 Paul Harvey: But

00:53:57 Frank Butler: in my rotation?

00:53:58 Paul Harvey: if you were in the type of job where you had to wear those clothes for 40, 50, 60 hours a week at the office, and maybe there's a culture where people would notice that kind of thing, like, hey, you know, you're still

00:54:08 Frank Butler: Yep.

00:54:08 Paul Harvey: wearing these old clothes. That gets expensive really fast.

00:54:11 Frank Butler: Exactly,

00:54:12 Paul Harvey: I've

00:54:12 Frank Butler: Exactly.

00:54:12 Paul Harvey: read a lot of books about, like memoirs of working in investment banking and the finance industry and the way people like really get on each other if they're not wearing like, high quality clothes, stylish clothes. Yeah, that gets expensive.

00:54:29 Frank Butler: Here's the number three potential impact on mental health stress and anxiety, burnout and reduced morale. Um, you know, if you think about the movie Office Space, you know, that kind of stuff or, you know, just always feeling like somebody over your shoulder. You know, we've talked about a lot of this stuff, too, but, I mean, there's certainly that element of it that that plays a role, um, busy work for the, you know, busy being portraying busyness is taxing because you're

00:54:56 Paul Harvey: Yes.

00:54:56 Frank Butler: always trying to figure out ways of how do I look like I'm being productive, even

00:55:02 Paul Harvey: Which

00:55:02 Frank Butler: though.

00:55:02 Paul Harvey: I think is the most stressful activity I've ever been involved with professionally. Back in my corporate days of having positions where you had to look busy and you weren't. That's hard work, man.

00:55:14 Frank Butler: Yeah.

00:55:14 Paul Harvey: It's draining. It's. Yeah. It sucks.

00:55:16 Frank Butler: Yeah. And then there's the other downsides, like distractions, reduced autonomy, potential for decreased creativity and innovation. So those are those are other aspects. And honestly I'm one of those people that like I'm fidgety. Um, and so I like to fidget and and so for example, every once in a while now my, my wife and I will share the home office space because we have two desks set up. But but in my hand I have Pickle Rick. And every once in a while I just like to do this pickle Rick. I turn myself into a pickle, Morty. And I love that because I love Rick and Morty. It's hilariously bad. Um, so every

00:55:54 Paul Harvey: You

00:55:54 Frank Butler: once in a

00:55:55 Paul Harvey: turned

00:55:55 Frank Butler: while,

00:55:55 Paul Harvey: me on to that show. That is a

00:55:56 Frank Butler: it's

00:55:56 Paul Harvey: good show.

00:55:57 Frank Butler: a it's a it's a

00:55:58 Paul Harvey: Uh.

00:55:59 Frank Butler: it's disturbing as hell,

00:56:00 Paul Harvey: But

00:56:00 Frank Butler: but.

00:56:00 Paul Harvey: that pickle thing. If you were working in a cubicle farm, it could result in a beating,

00:56:05 Frank Butler: Yeah,

00:56:05 Paul Harvey: I think.

00:56:06 Frank Butler: he would be annoying. But I love Pickle Rick. He's he's hilarious. But anyway, I got my tchotchkes and stuff on the desk, and, you know, I get up and I like again, I like using my own bathroom. I'm one of those people that I'm a home

00:56:17 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

00:56:17 Frank Butler: pooper, right? Like, I'm preferably a home pooper. I'm not afraid to

00:56:22 Paul Harvey: And

00:56:22 Frank Butler: admit

00:56:22 Paul Harvey: even

00:56:22 Frank Butler: it.

00:56:22 Paul Harvey: like that aside, I'm thinking of just other things that aren't. So like, that would just be weird to do in public. Like, you know, like I'm a, I'm a yo yo guy right now. I do like, if you have an office at your job, you can you can do your bad yo yo tricks without looking like an idiot in front of other people. But it still requires a level of privacy that not all jobs provide.

00:56:46 Frank Butler: And you just helped me segue because this is, again, brief, because I know we're we're we're heading into almost an hour here, but the return to office mandate is here. Now, this is on Fast Company. The return to office mandate is here. So is the Open Office. And their title

00:56:59 Paul Harvey: Oh,

00:56:59 Frank Butler: says

00:56:59 Paul Harvey: no.

00:57:00 Frank Butler: one has to go. And I could not

00:57:02 Paul Harvey: Yes,

00:57:02 Frank Butler: agree

00:57:03 Paul Harvey: yes.

00:57:03 Frank Butler: more. We already know the Open Office is a terrible design. It makes it difficult to be productive. But.

00:57:09 Paul Harvey: I'd say that's a deal breaker. Like you want me back in the office? It better not be an open office. Yeah.

00:57:14 Frank Butler: Exactly. So I think this is great. And I think it's hilarious because that's I mean, they're spot on. And it says in here under the tagline, as we usher in a new era of work, let's not default to the old environments. Let's create spaces where everyone, not just the neurotypical, not just the extroverts, can thrive. And as a somebody who's probably not neuro typical, I'm probably more on the neurodivergent side. Um. Yes.

00:57:44 Paul Harvey: I love that. An environment where not just the extroverts can thrive.

00:57:48 Frank Butler: Yes.

00:57:49 Paul Harvey: You know, we talked long ago about how, like, how ridiculous it is that you interview for a job, especially any kind of white collar or whatever you want to call it. Like, you have to sit there and put on this show like you're the most extroverted person in the world, and probably the interviewer is doing it too. I'm like, why are we living this, like facade? Like forcing ourselves into this mold that really the majority of us don't fit into? It's stupid. So yes, I very much agree with that. Like, let's let's reimagine what the workplace can be like instead of just forcing it, forcing us all back into the old mold again.

00:58:26 Frank Butler: Well

00:58:26 Paul Harvey: That's the answer.

00:58:27 Frank Butler: I agree. Well, here at the Busyness Paradox we try to go back to office. But the downside is I'm a coffee drinker and, uh, it looked like Justin is actually using the coffee machine, uh,

00:58:41 Paul Harvey: He's not allowed to do

00:58:42 Frank Butler: to

00:58:42 Paul Harvey: that.

00:58:42 Frank Butler: as a sourdough starter lab, which means that

00:58:47 Paul Harvey: Damn

00:58:48 Frank Butler: I can't have

00:58:48 Paul Harvey: it.

00:58:48 Frank Butler: coffee at the office. And I'm certainly not going to Starbucks to buy coffee because I don't like their coffee. But that said, um.

00:58:55 Paul Harvey: I like coffee at all. It doesn't affect me. And I'm still outraged.

00:58:57 Frank Butler: Yeah, it's stupid sourdough starter lab. That sourdough better be damn good, Justin.

00:59:02 Paul Harvey: That every damn good

00:59:03 Frank Butler: And

00:59:03 Paul Harvey: Makes

00:59:03 Frank Butler: on that.

00:59:04 Paul Harvey: a fine sourdough, though. Maybe that's a secret.

00:59:08 Frank Butler: And on that bombshell, it's time to clock out. Thanks for listening.

00:59:11 Paul Harvey: All right.

00:59:12 Frank Butler: Whether you're at home, in the office, or pretending to be both, we'll see you next time. Same time, same badge swipe. That's the eye outro. It gave me.

00:59:23 Paul Harvey: I don't like that, Andrew. Bad swipe. I don't get it. Like, maybe I'm just not

00:59:30 Frank Butler: Same

00:59:30 Paul Harvey: in on the joke.

00:59:30 Frank Butler: badge swipe. So you have to swipe to get

00:59:32 Paul Harvey: Oh.

00:59:32 Frank Butler: into

00:59:32 Paul Harvey: Batch

00:59:32 Frank Butler: badge.

00:59:32 Paul Harvey: swipe. Oh,

00:59:33 Frank Butler: Swipe. Yes.

00:59:33 Paul Harvey: okay.

00:59:34 Frank Butler: I did

00:59:34 Paul Harvey: Okay,

00:59:34 Frank Butler: not articulate

00:59:35 Paul Harvey: I got

00:59:35 Frank Butler: it

00:59:35 Paul Harvey: you.

00:59:35 Frank Butler: well. Yeah. Same badge. Swipe.

00:59:37 Paul Harvey: I think I was primed to think because you know, that the same bad time, same bat time, same bad place. So I was thinking you were saying like, bad swipe

00:59:43 Frank Butler: Ah,

00:59:43 Paul Harvey: or something, but.

00:59:44 Frank Butler: nope.

00:59:44 Paul Harvey: Yeah. All right, all

00:59:45 Frank Butler: So

00:59:45 Paul Harvey: right. See?

00:59:46 Frank Butler: it's. It's time to clock out.

00:59:48 Paul Harvey: Time to clock out.

00:59:48 Frank Butler: Thanks

00:59:48 Paul Harvey: That

00:59:48 Frank Butler: for

00:59:49 Paul Harvey: works.

00:59:49 Frank Butler: listening.

00:59:49 Paul Harvey: I

00:59:49 Frank Butler: Whether

00:59:49 Paul Harvey: like that,

00:59:49 Frank Butler: you're

00:59:49 Paul Harvey: I

00:59:50 Frank Butler: at

00:59:50 Paul Harvey: like

00:59:50 Frank Butler: home

00:59:50 Paul Harvey: that.

00:59:50 Frank Butler: in the office or pretending to be at both.

00:59:52 Paul Harvey: I like that too. Yeah, that was really good. Up until the

00:59:55 Frank Butler: We'll see you next time.

00:59:56 Paul Harvey: misunderstanding.

00:59:56 Frank Butler: Same time, same badge swipe. And it won't be the same time, folks. Paul and I are irregular. That's just

01:00:01 Paul Harvey: Yep.

01:00:01 Frank Butler: it.

01:00:03 Paul Harvey: It'll be a different time.

01:00:06 Frank Butler: But

01:00:06 Paul Harvey: Probably.

01:00:06 Frank Butler: it will always be here.

01:00:08 Paul Harvey: But we'll always be here.

01:00:09 Frank Butler: The show's not over.

01:00:11 Paul Harvey: And we always. Well, I should say we can always be contacted at Busyness Paradox at gmail.com, but I haven't checked that account. God knows how long we got to get back to that. So sorry if you've emailed us and we haven't,

01:00:23 Frank Butler: If

01:00:24 Paul Harvey: uh,

01:00:24 Frank Butler: you know us.

01:00:25 Paul Harvey: if you know us, if you listen to our two part episode on why we don't like email, maybe you're not surprised.

01:00:29 Frank Butler: You could probably reach out to us through our regular emails too, because I'll be more

01:00:34 Paul Harvey: Yeah.

01:00:34 Frank Butler: likely to see that. Or if you do

01:00:35 Paul Harvey: That's

01:00:35 Frank Butler: really

01:00:35 Paul Harvey: true.

01:00:36 Frank Butler: know us, text us and send

01:00:37 Paul Harvey: Yep.

01:00:38 Frank Butler: us a text about, you know, WhatsApp or text message, whatever. That's more that's more likely. So.

01:00:45 Paul Harvey: It's more our style. Frank's cell phone number will be in the show notes so you can text him.

01:00:52 Frank Butler: I don't need more spam calls.

01:00:56 Paul Harvey: All right, folks.

01:00:57 Frank Butler: Goodbye, everybody.

01:00:59 Paul Harvey: Goodbye. Good day.