The Busyness Paradox
The Busyness Paradox
Free Bagels Won’t Fix It: Why Gen Z Hates Work
In this episode of The Busyness Paradox, Frank and Paul dive into Maya Sulkin’s viral article, Why Gen Z Hates Work, and unpack what’s really driving younger workers’ frustrations with traditional careers. From stalled job markets to the lure of influencer lifestyles, we explore how cultural shifts and economic realities collide in shaping Gen Z’s approach to work.
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🔑 Key Topics Covered
•Why Gen Z unemployment is more than double the national average
•How TikTok and influencer culture make corporate jobs look meaningless
•Real-life stories: job rejections, influencer “success,” and burnout
•Why middle management has become a “punishment” instead of a promotion
•The disconnect between corporate perks and what Gen Z actually values
•What this generational shift means for the future of work
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🤔 Why You Should Listen
Whether you think Gen Z is lazy, savvy, or simply playing by new rules, this episode will challenge assumptions about work, purpose, and what younger generations actually want from their careers. Spoiler: it’s not free bagels.
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📌 Episode Links
•Original article: Why Gen Z Hates Work – The Free Press
•More episodes of The Busyness Paradox: busynessparadox.com
Come visit us at busynessparadox.com to see episode transcripts, blog posts and other content while you’re there!
00:01:25 Frank Butler: On today's episode of The Busyness Paradox, I consider quitting academia to become a furniture influencer. Paul compares the corner office to a yoga mat and finds only one offers real job satisfaction. And we discover why posting your cat on TikTok now pays better than most corporate jobs.
00:01:47 Paul H: Sad but true.
00:01:49 Frank Butler: Alternatively, though, I said, and we ask, is work officially the last resort when all else fails? I could not decide between those last two. But with that. It's business. It's business time. Oh oh oh, yeah. Well. Oh, busybodies. Welcome to another episode of The Busyness Paradox. Hey, we're kind of back on track here.
00:02:23 Paul H: Yay!
00:02:23 Frank Butler: I'm Frank Butler here with Paul Harvey.
00:02:25 Paul H: Good day.
00:02:26 Frank Butler: Good day. Paul. Um, man, there's nothing like getting hyped to that song. Little
00:02:31 Paul H: I
00:02:31 Frank Butler: business
00:02:32 Paul H: know,
00:02:32 Frank Butler: time. You know?
00:02:33 Paul H: I kind of want you to play it again.
00:02:35 Frank Butler: I know it was
00:02:36 Paul H: Just
00:02:36 Frank Butler: great, wasn't
00:02:36 Paul H: hit my
00:02:36 Frank Butler: I?
00:02:36 Paul H: groove
00:02:36 Frank Butler: Was
00:02:37 Paul H: there.
00:02:37 Frank Butler: I was like, I was like, in it. So, uh. Well, you know, here we are. We're
00:02:41 Paul H: Here
00:02:41 Frank Butler: back.
00:02:41 Paul H: we are.
00:02:42 Frank Butler: We are. We are actually somewhat back to regularity with our irregularity.
00:02:50 Paul H: Hmm. Think about that for a minute. Yeah. All right. Irregularly regular
00:03:00 Frank Butler: Is that is that a paradox in
00:03:01 Paul H: it
00:03:01 Frank Butler: itself or.
00:03:02 Paul H: is.
00:03:03 Frank Butler: Hmm. We're appropriately named. How about that?
00:03:06 Paul H: How about that?
00:03:08 Frank Butler: So, Paul,
00:03:10 Paul H: Yeah.
00:03:11 Frank Butler: you presented me with an article that is going to be the theme of today's episode.
00:03:18 Paul H: It did. It is. Not exactly titled this, but can be summarized as Y Gen Z hates work. Or
00:03:29 Frank Butler: It was titled that actually,
00:03:31 Paul H: that that's the title of it.
00:03:32 Frank Butler: it's the title
00:03:32 Paul H: Come
00:03:32 Frank Butler: of it.
00:03:33 Paul H: on. You're kidding me.
00:03:33 Frank Butler: No, it's by Maya Sulkin. Why Gen Z hates
00:03:36 Paul H: Y
00:03:36 Frank Butler: work.
00:03:36 Paul H: Gen Z hates work. That is the literal title of the article. Ooh. Off to a strong start here. Okay, well, props to, uh, Maya Sulkin for or whoever came up with the title for appropriately titling this article, and we thought this would be a good thing to talk about because we've touched on some of these topics before, and sometimes to at least to my chagrin. There's always interest in these generational difference topics, especially where members of other generational cohorts get to look askance at younger generations, which I don't really love. And I feel like I always have to preface any time we discuss this stuff, that these generational cohorts and labels are completely arbitrary, that some say I don't even there's no official designation of what constitutes Gen Z, but what would you say, frankly, what age range are we talking about if we talk about Gen Z?
00:04:39 Frank Butler: I would say those who are just entering the workforce, kind
00:04:42 Paul H: Hmm?
00:04:43 Frank Butler: of a twenty three, four
00:04:46 Paul H: Yeah.
00:04:47 Frank Butler: to maybe late twenties, early thirties. But again, it's one of those that it's kind of arbitrary, right?
00:04:55 Paul H: Yeah. So kind of millennium babies, those, you know, born around two thousand, give or take five years or so. And as always, as with every generation ever, the sense of older generations is that there's something wrong with this one, Frank, among others. Is that they don't like what we traditionally think of as work. I've heard other things that I don't totally agree with. Like I really came to appreciate the you know, we see these are, as college professors, our recent graduates. Basically, I really came to appreciate their, like, ironic sense of humor that characterized that age cohort. It took me a little while to understand it. Like memes and stuff like it.
00:05:46 Frank Butler: I love a good meme.
00:05:47 Paul H: I
00:05:47 Frank Butler: I
00:05:47 Paul H: love
00:05:48 Frank Butler: just
00:05:48 Paul H: a good
00:05:48 Frank Butler: have
00:05:48 Paul H: meme.
00:05:48 Frank Butler: to say
00:05:48 Paul H: I
00:05:48 Frank Butler: I
00:05:48 Paul H: will
00:05:48 Frank Butler: love
00:05:48 Paul H: admit,
00:05:49 Frank Butler: a good meme.
00:05:49 Paul H: at first I was very confused by the whole meme thing, but I came around to it. I came around to some of their slang, like calling things like mid and sus. Like at first I was like, what are these sounds you're making with your voices? But, you know, every generation brings something new to the table. And I, after reading this article, kind of thought. They have a point when it comes to their attitude towards the traditional workplace, and that's what we'd like to talk about today. It also talks about their this generation or this age groups preferred alternative to the workplace, which is being an influencer on social media, which that I can't really vibe with. But after reading some of the accounts presented in the article, I don't know, I kind of came around. I don't want to say came around to their way of thinking, but I get where that mindset comes from.
00:06:45 Frank Butler: Better
00:06:45 Paul H: Better?
00:06:46 Frank Butler: understanding, right.
00:06:47 Paul H: Yeah,
00:06:47 Frank Butler: That's that's what communication does. Right?
00:06:49 Paul H: Yeah.
00:06:49 Frank Butler: You know, we talk about this whole information asymmetry. And because I think we're Gen X, we don't understand the social media world quite the same, especially the transition from Facebook to TikTok and these other more video based type outlets. Right.
00:07:08 Paul H: Yeah.
00:07:08 Frank Butler: But.
00:07:09 Paul H: I don't understand. I've never been on TikTok. I've never been. I thought Instagram was a thing for photographers to share pictures. Like, in my mind, that. And then I hear about things. I saw this on Instagram. Like what? So I think we can get a bit of a pass on some of this, but that some of these social media platforms have evolved in weird, unexpected ways since they became popular. So yeah, I am completely in the dark on a lot of this stuff.
00:07:35 Frank Butler: Yeah, I don't have TikTok. I do you do watch the occasional Instagram video because my wife, who's millennial, will share those with me. I think Instagram is more millennial, TikTok is more Gen Z. Um,
00:07:48 Paul H: Mhm.
00:07:49 Frank Butler: from a from a business sense though, like, I can sort of understand it if you can get thousands of views. Um, what you've done is you get in these economies of scale, right? And
00:07:59 Paul H: Right.
00:07:59 Frank Butler: then you become very attractive to particular because you're finding your niche. And so therefore you become
00:08:04 Paul H: Yep.
00:08:04 Frank Butler: attractive to particular advertisers because of that niche. Um, I actually in VEP this summer, we actually had a guy who who, um, he's a veteran obviously for Veterans Entrepreneurship program, but he had a I think I forgot what it was, over eighty thousand followers, I think was the number. Um, and he was starting a, a clothing slash lifestyle brand. And, you know, he started with, like, these sunglasses, but he has a very successful Instagram, TikTok making fun of, you know, being, I think, either in the military or out of the military at this point and not not like, you know, making fun of the service itself, but just sort of some of the things they do that's part of their culture. Right? And
00:08:52 Paul H: Stuff that other veterans
00:08:53 Frank Butler: would
00:08:53 Paul H: would get.
00:08:54 Frank Butler: get right.
00:08:55 Paul H: Yeah.
00:08:55 Frank Butler: Right. And it's funny and uh, and like you said, he's got a strong following and, uh, he's, he's trying to now leverage that to move into this lifestyle brand. Um, but he also was asked to, to do videos for, uh, an organization called vet TV, which again uses social media to present their videos. They're kind of funny and that kind of stuff. So I keep thinking of this from an economies of scale idea, right? If you get one dollar value from every follower, I mean, that's that's pretty good money, right?
00:09:27 Paul H: It
00:09:27 Frank Butler: I mean,
00:09:27 Paul H: adds up.
00:09:27 Frank Butler: yeah,
00:09:27 Paul H: Yeah. Quickly.
00:09:28 Frank Butler: you know, exactly.
00:09:29 Paul H: And.
00:09:29 Frank Butler: And especially if you're doing a lot of content, they're staying highly engaged. That adds up.
00:09:35 Paul H: And that's the thing that I think older folks like ourselves can understand, even if we don't quite understand what the different platforms are about that dynamic is. I mean, it's the same in podcasting. It's the same in broadcast TV. You know, the more you can kind of tap into a niche audience of people that will keep coming back to watch your stuff or listen to your stuff. That gets the attention of people who will sponsor that stuff. And that can take obviously different forms. They, you know, do ad reads or product demonstration videos or selling merchandise, like you were saying, coming up with their own clothing lines, having a nine year old daughter. I have been on the losing end of several of these transactions of whatever the hot YouTube kids influencer of the moment is. Start selling a line of toys or something and just have to have. I still don't understand what a lanky box is, and I've spent probably one hundred dollars on them. Whatever the hell they are.
00:10:33 Frank Butler: Do you know what a toilet is?
00:10:36 Paul H: I'm afraid I do, Frank. I'm afraid I do. I don't understand like why it is. Why it's a thing that exists.
00:10:43 Frank Butler: I
00:10:43 Paul H: But
00:10:43 Frank Butler: keep
00:10:43 Paul H: I
00:10:43 Frank Butler: seeing
00:10:43 Paul H: know
00:10:43 Frank Butler: it at stores.
00:10:44 Paul H: what it is. It's
00:10:45 Frank Butler: Yeah.
00:10:45 Paul H: a guy who is part man, part toilet, I guess.
00:10:51 Frank Butler: I don't know. All I know is that when I go shopping for the Lego and Walmart, I walk by the toilet thing and I'm like, what in the world is this world we live in?
00:11:01 Paul H: Even when I was in, uh, Denmark, Copenhagen a couple months ago for a conference, not in the Lego store that they have there, being the, you know, the, the Mecca of Lego. But right next to the Lego store was another toy store that arguably had a possibly better selection of Legos. It was kind of odd, but they had other stuff too. And among that other stuff was Skippy toilets. So apparently Skippy Toilet has transcended national boundaries and.
00:11:29 Frank Butler: Well, I will say, the first time I saw it, I was actually in Albania this summer
00:11:32 Paul H: Oh well.
00:11:32 Frank Butler: and
00:11:32 Paul H: See, there
00:11:33 Frank Butler: we're
00:11:33 Paul H: you go.
00:11:33 Frank Butler: like, oh, this is not even in the US
00:11:34 Paul H: This
00:11:34 Frank Butler: yet,
00:11:34 Paul H: is
00:11:35 Frank Butler: because
00:11:35 Paul H: a crazy Albanian thing.
00:11:36 Frank Butler: we were like, yeah, this is some, some. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh my God, it's in Walmart. And there it was. I was like, no, I can't avoid the toys.
00:11:46 Paul H: Yeah.
00:11:48 Frank Butler: But that's not even Gen Z, right? That's that.
00:11:50 Paul H: No,
00:11:50 Frank Butler: This is the latest
00:11:50 Paul H: that's the
00:11:51 Frank Butler: like Alpha
00:11:51 Paul H: Gen
00:11:51 Frank Butler: or
00:11:52 Paul H: and
00:11:52 Frank Butler: whatever.
00:11:52 Paul H: Alpha, whatever name they've come up with. Um, which fun history lesson? As you probably recall, frankly, this whole lettering of generational cohorts started with us with Gen X, and it was not like a term of endearment. It was like X, like like the Lost Generation, basically. Like they're hopeless, like Gen X, because they're just like a write off. And
00:12:14 Frank Butler: We
00:12:15 Paul H: now
00:12:15 Frank Butler: don't want
00:12:15 Paul H: x,
00:12:15 Frank Butler: to work.
00:12:15 Paul H: y, z,
00:12:16 Frank Butler: You
00:12:16 Paul H: A,
00:12:16 Frank Butler: know. We're
00:12:16 Paul H: b.
00:12:17 Frank Butler: not.
00:12:18 Paul H: And some of that was earned like we had like the everything is like stupid like whatever. Like the that was kind of our generation's thing was to just not care about anything.
00:12:29 Frank Butler: Well, we were also lost in our computers, right. Like we would
00:12:32 Paul H: Yeah,
00:12:32 Frank Butler: rather be on the computer left alone.
00:12:34 Paul H: yeah.
00:12:34 Frank Butler: That was a big different thing. Whereas the older generations wanted to do more face to face and socialization
00:12:40 Paul H: Yeah.
00:12:40 Frank Butler: and stuff like that. And we're like,
00:12:42 Paul H: Which
00:12:42 Frank Butler: just let us do our job and.
00:12:43 Paul H: having seen where that, you know, seen how that trajectory has played out, I'm kind of thinking the older generations may have had a point, but it is what it is and we are like.
00:12:54 Frank Butler: Get off my lawn. Oh, sorry.
00:12:57 Paul H: I do feel like I should be yelling at a cloud right now, but, um, stupid clouds. Uh, you know, we are kind of the last group that live both lives, like pre-internet post-internet. Like, we always had computers in our lives. Not something that today's kids would recognize as computers. Those like, you know, DOS terminals and whatever. But. I don't know, it's a unique perspective to have kind of lived before and after as adults that younger generations don't have. And for better or for worse, they, uh, I mean, we're as addicted to screens as they are, but they haven't known another way. So for them, and tapping into that cohort in a social media influencer type of way is
00:13:44 Frank Butler: Okay.
00:13:44 Paul H: a rewarding, as this article lays out. And be weirdly easy if
00:13:50 Frank Butler: Okay.
00:13:50 Paul H: if you, you know, the planets have to align, right. And this article does summarize that a bit, but a lot of the popular influencers and I see some of the stuff my daughter watches too. It's just people doing stuff like they're just playing a game, playing Minecraft, giving no special effort. There's no script, they're just playing Minecraft. And she'll just watch these things or like, they'll do arts and crafts or something, maybe. And like just basically watching people do mundane things and they're getting paid a lot of money for doing this. So the crux of this article is when you spend a lot of your life attached to a screen, watching people just do normal stuff and get paid Heaps of money for it. And you're staring down the barrel of a, you know, traditional white collar corporate job. It's a bit of a tough sell for some of these younger folks. And yeah, I kind of get that.
00:14:53 Frank Butler: I think it's important to put this in context too, right? Um, the reason why I'm going to bring this up is that, uh, I think it helps explain some of it. They're having a harder time to find jobs,
00:15:04 Paul H: Yeah.
00:15:04 Frank Butler: these Gen Z folks. Right? And when you see it in there, you'll see that, um, while the national unemployment rate is around four point three percent, the Gen Z unemployment rate is closer to eleven percent. So, you know, that's over double the national unemployment. Now obviously they're part of that four point three. But when you
00:15:23 Paul H: Right.
00:15:23 Frank Butler: look at those groups, you'll see that their their unemployment rates much higher, which I think because of how difficult it is in getting a job, you're seeing them gravitate toward these, you know, thoughts of being influencers or, you know, I mean, like I said, I want to be a furniture influencer, right? I think that would be an ideal occupation,
00:15:44 Paul H: I guarantee there's a niche out there that would
00:15:46 Frank Butler: I promise.
00:15:47 Paul H: handsomely
00:15:47 Frank Butler: There is.
00:15:47 Paul H: reward you for being a successful furniture influencer.
00:15:50 Frank Butler: I mean, JD Vance might be following me at that point, but that's a whole different conversation.
00:15:55 Paul H: You went there? Okay.
00:15:56 Frank Butler: Uh, you know, there's a meme around it, so why
00:15:59 Paul H: Of
00:15:59 Frank Butler: not,
00:15:59 Paul H: course,
00:15:59 Frank Butler: right?
00:16:00 Paul H: of course. Uh.
00:16:03 Frank Butler: Well, you know, you want the you want the yoga mat and the corner office, apparently. So, you know, uh.
00:16:08 Paul H: Can I have both? What I really like, Frank, would be the hammock in the corner office.
00:16:12 Frank Butler: Oh, yeah.
00:16:13 Paul H: That's
00:16:13 Frank Butler: See, that
00:16:13 Paul H: the
00:16:13 Frank Butler: would
00:16:13 Paul H: dream.
00:16:13 Frank Butler: be ideal. Just give me
00:16:15 Paul H: But.
00:16:15 Frank Butler: the hammock on the beach and let let me just, you know, stay
00:16:18 Paul H: It's true.
00:16:19 Frank Butler: there.
00:16:19 Paul H: You don't need the office, do you? You just
00:16:21 Frank Butler: No.
00:16:21 Paul H: have the hammock.
00:16:22 Frank Butler: Yeah.
00:16:22 Paul H: Hmm.
00:16:22 Frank Butler: I mean,
00:16:22 Paul H: Interesting.
00:16:22 Frank Butler: these days, tech lets you go anywhere, right? But,
00:16:25 Paul H: Yeah.
00:16:25 Frank Butler: you know, for our last episode, the whole return to office thing,
00:16:29 Paul H: Hmm.
00:16:29 Frank Butler: you know, it
00:16:30 Paul H: That's
00:16:30 Frank Butler: kind of
00:16:30 Paul H: true.
00:16:30 Frank Butler: takes away from that, which I think again, goes back to it's like Gen Z had that taste of freedom that came with
00:16:38 Paul H: That's
00:16:38 Frank Butler: work
00:16:38 Paul H: a good point.
00:16:38 Frank Butler: from home.
00:16:39 Paul H: Yep.
00:16:40 Frank Butler: And now we're again in this environment in which they want people back in the office, and there's this sort of freedom that came from being in your own house, getting your job done, not having this manager. And, you know, and in particular, I think what's what was interesting that came out of this article is that they even considered middle management jobs to be high stress, low reward. And we've talked about this before, that
00:17:03 Paul H: Mhm.
00:17:03 Frank Butler: the pay raise to become middle management is sometimes not worth the additional duties.
00:17:08 Paul H: Yep.
00:17:10 Frank Butler: And
00:17:10 Paul H: Especially
00:17:10 Frank Butler: that's fascinating.
00:17:10 Paul H: when you keep hearing about the demise of middle management due to AI, which is somewhat some of that is hyperbolic gloom and doom ING of course. But you know, I mean consistent with our point that if there's jobs and if some of those are middle management that consist of, you know, maybe a pair BS jobs type of work or
00:17:33 Frank Butler: Hmm.
00:17:33 Paul H: busy work type stuff like. Yeah, that stuff is. Amenable I think, to being demolished by AI. And that in itself isn't a bad thing, but it adds to this, I think legitimate questions that are being asked like, why do I want to launch myself down this career path when I don't really love what I see? And the projections of where it's all going don't really interest me either. And yeah, I think we've all had that tension a little bit. Like it always was a bit depressing to me. I remember being, you know, senior in college, like getting to that point where people are interviewing for jobs and getting jobs and, you know, they had more than a few friends that were kind of like, well, here comes the next forty years of my life is going to suck. And I always thought, what a depressing way to go into, like, the prime of your life, of just sort of accepting right from before you even start the job that like, yeah, it's going gonna suck. You know, I tend to think that's a sign that you probably went into the wrong field of work. But, you know, you're young, you don't. Maybe you've got parents that followed that trajectory, which is for decades now been kind of like the right way to do things. Like, you go to college, get the degree, you go and get this high paid white collar job and whatever your field is, and, you know, if you're not seeing a lot of love for that in the adults in your life, you're going, you know, some of these numbers are incredible people interviewing for like two hundred jobs and being a finalist for twelve and not getting any, you know, they're getting the opportunity to they're getting more time than they anticipated to think this stuff through, maybe as opposed to just getting a job and taking it. And I think that's leading to some of this questioning too. And so you really, you know, you add it all up. I can kind of understand that. Now the other side of the argument from us old folks is like, well, tough. You know, work is work. That's what they pay you for. That's what the money's for. There's some level of like, it's not all going to be fun and games. And that is true too.
00:19:42 Frank Butler: Yeah. You know, you were talking about these like there was this one person in that article, two hundred interviews and communication had nothing, had nothing. Uh, and then they're like, you know what? It's financially stressful to not have a full time job. But then, of course, then you have to get stuck in a boring corporate job as their words, right?
00:20:04 Paul H: Yeah.
00:20:04 Frank Butler: There was this other one that, you know, I feel like they were exploited in the interview process. Right? It was like, um, they had five or six interviews with each of the companies. They did projects for all
00:20:13 Paul H: Yeah.
00:20:13 Frank Butler: of them. Right. So they were essentially what I would call maybe a gig worker without the pay
00:20:19 Paul H: Yeah,
00:20:19 Frank Butler: because they
00:20:19 Paul H: yeah.
00:20:20 Frank Butler: were exploiting them for the interview process.
00:20:22 Paul H: Just the carrot and the stick. Like maybe we'll hire you if you
00:20:24 Frank Butler: And
00:20:24 Paul H: do
00:20:25 Frank Butler: then
00:20:25 Paul H: a good job.
00:20:25 Frank Butler: and then, you know, then the employer ghosted them. Right. And we've talked about ghosting in the past, but usually it's the, you know, employees ghosting or what have you. But in this context it's the employers are also
00:20:39 Paul H: Yeah,
00:20:39 Frank Butler: doing the ghosting.
00:20:40 Paul H: that's a good point. Actually, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, we've talked about it from the other perspective, also being labeled as a Gen Z phenomenon of ghosting employers. Yeah. We see some evidence that it's, uh, maybe going both ways, which
00:20:55 Frank Butler: Yeah. It's a two way street.
00:20:56 Paul H: is weak. I can't help but think. I mean, speaking against my own, like job security or whatever here, but I yeah, I think for a long time we've like the college for everyone has never really made much sense to me. And like, I bet a lot of these people that just look at it like corporate career and think, oh God, how boring. There's probably something else that they are just meant to be doing. Like, they would probably be a really good, I don't know, plumber or something. Like, I think if we and I think the pendulum is swinging this way, you know, we remove the social, what do you call it like baggage attached to non white collar jobs that we've had for several decades now, which was always kind of stupid. You know, we would open a lot of people up to career opportunities that are more traditional, but would be much more fulfilling to them just because of who they are as people and what gets them going. Because the corporate desk job thing is not for everybody, and you can make good money doing other things that are not that.
00:22:12 Frank Butler: Well, I think that goes back to it's like, you know, that's some of the conversations we have to have in higher education, right, is where's our role? And I keep thinking about, hey, you know, if they do want to be a plumber, well, they still need to have the business understanding so they can
00:22:24 Paul H: Yep.
00:22:24 Frank Butler: be successful, right? How
00:22:26 Paul H: Yep.
00:22:26 Frank Butler: do you do good customer service? How do you understand the accounting and the finance side of your business? How do you manage lead people? Right. All those things
00:22:32 Paul H: Mhm.
00:22:32 Frank Butler: are still how do you market your business?
00:22:34 Paul H: Yeah.
00:22:34 Frank Butler: Right. All those are still greatly important.
00:22:37 Paul H: And that's the irony because we don't like traditional US universities anyway. We don't like package the information that way towards like budding plumbers even though that's, that's an entrepreneurial venture. If you're going out on your own anyway and even if you're not you still have to work with other people. You know, you still have like these. But we we kind of present as a career, like, you go to college to not do those types of jobs, which is stupid. And so you end up with this whole cohort of young adults saying, well, my options appear to be unfulfilling desk job or Tik Tok influencer, and there's nothing else. There is other things, but
00:23:22 Frank Butler: Correct.
00:23:22 Paul H: we don't like. If you've if you've become a college graduate, you've kind of self-selected out of that whole other realm of possibilities.
00:23:33 Frank Butler: I you know, it's a fascinating thing. It's going to lead to a lot of discussions. I think as we as we deal with the challenges moving forward. Uh, one of the things that we did in our strategic plan, for example, UTC, is that, you know, the term workforce development is in the plan for the university. And I think that should really help us with the curricular programming and ideas, because that's something we have to concern ourselves with. Right? It's it's are we getting students prepared for employment and, and what the workforce needs in our region. And that that could mean, yeah, we need more plumbers, but they've got to be successful at running businesses too. So
00:24:16 Paul H: Mm.
00:24:16 Frank Butler: how can we make sure that happens? Or it could be, you know, we need more people to pressure wash homes to maintain them or, you know, whatever. It could be out there in that, in that more physical, traditionally blue collar. But let's let's face it, you know, I would say that there's a lot of good opportunity there to make good money. And
00:24:40 Paul H: Oh, yeah.
00:24:40 Frank Butler: if you can do it better than others, right, you get that competitive advantage and set yourself apart and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, that's where we are.
00:24:50 Paul H: And I, I can go back twenty years to my pre-academic corporate life working in, uh, in finance in a big fortune fifty company that made jet engines and seeing the, you know, the the not like the shop floor workers. They were paid uh, I think it was entirely hourly and overtime and all that. And, you know, just seeing spreadsheets with the amount of money those guys on the shop floor were making, making turbine blades and all that stuff, you know, skilled labor, but, but quote unquote blue collar work. These guys are making bank. And this
00:25:31 Frank Butler: Yeah.
00:25:31 Paul H: is the late nineties, early two thousand. And the funniest thing to me was on this report spreadsheet, whatever I was looking at, it also included, like the distribution of the money to the employees. And I always said how almost all these guys have two different direct deposit accounts. And this woman sitting right next to me at the table said, oh, that the overtime goes to the second columns, the overtime goes there and the base pay goes. The other one said, why do they have to separate it? They don't. They just do that to hide it from their wives.
00:26:06 Frank Butler: She's.
00:26:06 Paul H: Just plain like, just matter of fact, like it was no big thing. Well, that just to keep it so the wives only see the, uh, you know, the forty hours a week they don't see the overtime that goes into a separate account. Huh. Interesting. They're both pretty big numbers. So I was like, all right. But yeah, there's always been I think a I think we're kind of starting to reap the what we've been sowing for a long time is that we've got this idea of what constitutes a prestigious job that needs a college degree. And we've been underserving under recognizing the other types of work, which for many people are more fulfilling. Just, you know, we all have different things that get our engines going. And for a lot of people, it's that type of hands on work where you're kind of making something with your hands. And yeah, I think sounds like you UTC is farther down the path maybe than a lot of schools. But, you know, I think the whole essence of this article about why we think Gen Z hates work is that we've not given them. We've told them what we we've given them a definition of what work is, and it leaves out a lot of options. And
00:27:15 Frank Butler: Well.
00:27:15 Paul H: so if they don't like the options that they're they perceive to be available to them, they start getting jealous of TikTok influencers.
00:27:22 Frank Butler: Well. And I think also the TikTok influence. But you know, I think also too, you know, it's it's if I don't if I don't want a boring corporate job I, you know, and I just want to be left alone. So what better way to do it than go in and work on an assembly line or something along those lines where you just do it, you don't deal with
00:27:40 Paul H: Mhm.
00:27:40 Frank Butler: customers, then you go home and you're free. Right. There's
00:27:43 Paul H: Yep.
00:27:44 Frank Butler: no homework.
00:27:44 Paul H: Yep.
00:27:44 Frank Butler: There's no checking your emails. There's there's like a certain.
00:27:48 Paul H: There's no stressing out about the quarterly deadline coming up or whatever. You just.
00:27:53 Frank Butler: There's
00:27:53 Paul H: Yep.
00:27:53 Frank Butler: a certain bliss to
00:27:56 Paul H: Yes.
00:27:56 Frank Butler: less in that, in that sequence. And you know, and here it even says in the article and I love this bit is like, you know, um, this person didn't want to just suck it up and get a boring corporate job. They preferred to not work at all than to be unhappy in the job. And so this is the line straight out of it. And this is this cracked me up and said, yes, you boomers and Gen Xers,
00:28:18 Paul H: Mhm.
00:28:18 Frank Butler: I can sense your eyes rolling right
00:28:20 Paul H: Mhm.
00:28:20 Frank Butler: about now. We know what you think of us, Zoomers. We have an attitude problem, but the conversations I have with fellow Gen Zers for this story suggest that it's not so much an attitude problem, but an Instagram induced, Instagram induced delusion. And I think that that goes back to the influence that social media has to show these people are living these lives. They become Instagram influencers, influencers or TikTok influencers. They're able to go out and make this content. And, you know, of course, you see how free and easy it seems on the outside.
00:28:53 Paul H: Mhm.
00:28:54 Frank Butler: But again, you're not seeing the behind the
00:28:55 Paul H: Nope.
00:28:55 Frank Butler: scenes. I mean, a lot of these influencers frequently have a team,
00:28:59 Paul H: Oh yeah.
00:29:00 Frank Butler: and they got professional equipment and it's a full time job. It's just they're choosing not to disclose that piece of it either. So there's
00:29:08 Paul H: Right?
00:29:09 Frank Butler: certainly that that. Tie to it. And.
00:29:14 Paul H: Oh, definitely. I've heard it said that the more casual and influencer appears on camera like it's a famous one in YouTube. I can't think of his name right now, but he always wears like a just a t shirt. Like like a white undershirt. He's got like, an air like EarPods, like old school iPad, iPod, EarPods, like hanging out of his ears, unshaven. And he's super popular. And I think it was it might have been him that said this. Actually, the more casual we appear on this side of the camera, the more work is going on that you don't see. Like it takes a lot of work to look like you're this effortless.
00:29:44 Frank Butler: Not doing anything.
00:29:45 Paul H: Yeah.
00:29:46 Frank Butler: It takes a lot of effort to
00:29:47 Paul H: Yeah.
00:29:47 Frank Butler: look homeless. Right.
00:29:50 Paul H: Which, you know, I believe as with most things, like if you're really good at something, it looks like it's easy for you, but it if it is easy for you, then it probably took a whole lot of training and practice and learning to get to that point. But
00:30:06 Frank Butler: It
00:30:06 Paul H: yeah.
00:30:06 Frank Butler: just It just makes me think of derelict in the movie Zoolander. Right. It's like the streetwear idea of, like, looking. Looking like you're poor, essentially. And like, you know, lazy and poor is not right. But looking like you live on the
00:30:21 Paul H: Yeah,
00:30:21 Frank Butler: street takes a lot of effort.
00:30:23 Paul H: yeah.
00:30:23 Frank Butler: It's like derelict.
00:30:26 Paul H: Was not expecting
00:30:26 Frank Butler: Uh.
00:30:27 Paul H: a Zoolander reference in
00:30:28 Frank Butler: Ah.
00:30:28 Paul H: this episode, but it came through pretty well done.
00:30:31 Frank Butler: You know, uh, I met Billy Zane the other day.
00:30:34 Paul H: Did you really?
00:30:34 Frank Butler: Yeah, I did, and of course, I had to use the Zoolander two reference of it's a walk off. And,
00:30:40 Paul H: That.
00:30:40 Frank Butler: uh, you know, Billy, Billy was. He was great about it.
00:30:45 Paul H: Hey, never heard that before.
00:30:48 Frank Butler: So, uh, it's because we. That's what he said in Zoolander two when it was like, uh, Owen Wilson and, uh, Derek Zoolander, uh, whose character played by Ben Stiller. Right. And so they're about to get into a walk off, and David Bowie's the, uh, the emcee of it, but he's like, it's a walk off. That was Billy Zane's line and it was great.
00:31:09 Paul H: I have to confess, I don't think I saw Zoolander two.
00:31:12 Frank Butler: Oh, it's gold, it's comedy gold. Um, lots of great memorable things from that to, you know, Zoolander
00:31:19 Paul H: Yep.
00:31:19 Frank Butler: one obviously had, like, endless amounts of memes out of it, you know?
00:31:23 Paul H: Yup.
00:31:24 Frank Butler: But, uh,
00:31:25 Paul H: Before
00:31:25 Frank Butler: Zoolander
00:31:26 Paul H: memes
00:31:26 Frank Butler: two
00:31:26 Paul H: were a thing.
00:31:26 Frank Butler: before
00:31:27 Paul H: It was
00:31:27 Frank Butler: memes
00:31:27 Paul H: cranking
00:31:27 Frank Butler: were thing.
00:31:28 Paul H: out memes.
00:31:28 Frank Butler: Yep. Yeah. It was like office space, right? It was
00:31:31 Paul H: Yep.
00:31:31 Frank Butler: the same way, uh, you know, our our our memes came out of movies these days.
00:31:37 Paul H: Hmm.
00:31:37 Frank Butler: They come out of short video formats or even picture based, right? Like just
00:31:41 Paul H: Yup.
00:31:41 Frank Butler: just a, a snapshot
00:31:42 Paul H: Yeah. Just
00:31:43 Frank Butler: and
00:31:43 Paul H: a random snapshot.
00:31:44 Frank Butler: and that that has become much more meme able over time. So,
00:31:49 Paul H: Yep. That's a good point.
00:31:51 Frank Butler: you know, I, I, I get it, I, I certainly, you know, again coming going back it's like, you know, you boomers and Gen Xers I can sense your eyes rolling right about, You know, honestly, if you're seeing this and you're buying into this mentality that there's a way of making money to keep yourself, you know, maybe it's more lifestyle business, right? Not a growth business, not something that's going to make you wealthy, but at least give you enough money that you're not working a boring corporate job. You're getting to experience life in a unique way. I it's hard to be mad at that, right? Like,
00:32:27 Paul H: Yeah.
00:32:27 Frank Butler: if you can pull it off. But I think there's a point where it's like, when do you say this ain't for me? I'm not making money.
00:32:37 Paul H: Yeah.
00:32:37 Frank Butler: I'm trying, you know, and you just realize that you're not creative or you don't have a niche that
00:32:42 Paul H: Yeah.
00:32:42 Frank Butler: you're attracted to or
00:32:43 Paul H: Or
00:32:44 Frank Butler: is
00:32:44 Paul H: somebody
00:32:44 Frank Butler: attracted
00:32:44 Paul H: else
00:32:44 Frank Butler: to you.
00:32:44 Paul H: beat you to it or something. Like, it's there's that's and that's the the problem. Not everyone can be just like, not everyone can be a famous rock star. Like, there's only so much room in the world for these highly paid, highly influential Essential influencers.
00:33:01 Frank Butler: I mean, look how much money we make doing this podcast.
00:33:04 Paul H: Yeah,
00:33:04 Frank Butler: I mean, we're famous,
00:33:06 Paul H: I
00:33:06 Frank Butler: right?
00:33:06 Paul H: mean, it just rolls in like I.
00:33:07 Frank Butler: I mean, that that big goose egg of a paycheck comes
00:33:11 Paul H: Yeah,
00:33:11 Frank Butler: through
00:33:11 Paul H: yeah.
00:33:11 Frank Butler: every month, and you just look at it and go, man, that's a big zero
00:33:15 Paul H: I
00:33:15 Frank Butler: right
00:33:15 Paul H: just
00:33:15 Frank Butler: there.
00:33:15 Paul H: don't even know what to do with that
00:33:17 Frank Butler: Uh,
00:33:17 Paul H: much.
00:33:17 Frank Butler: I
00:33:18 Paul H: Zero.
00:33:18 Frank Butler: mean, I like to show to my wife and go, hey, look,
00:33:21 Paul H: Yeah.
00:33:21 Frank Butler: look how much money we made.
00:33:22 Paul H: Look
00:33:22 Frank Butler: Zero.
00:33:22 Paul H: what I pulled in. It's a blank piece of paper. Yeah.
00:33:27 Frank Butler: I think it goes back to, you know, the reality is that we have real jobs. This
00:33:31 Paul H: Yeah.
00:33:31 Frank Butler: isn't our full time
00:33:32 Paul H: No.
00:33:32 Frank Butler: job. And honestly,
00:33:34 Paul H: And
00:33:34 Frank Butler: I
00:33:34 Paul H: frankly,
00:33:35 Frank Butler: don't know
00:33:35 Paul H: I
00:33:35 Frank Butler: if
00:33:35 Paul H: don't
00:33:35 Frank Butler: I would.
00:33:35 Paul H: want to do a ad reads for NordVPN. Like, I just, like,
00:33:39 Frank Butler: Ah.
00:33:39 Paul H: you know, some people, you know, I just I don't like judge, but I don't want to do it just.
00:33:46 Frank Butler: Well, here's the other element too. It's like people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a high quality podcast.
00:33:53 Paul H: Yeah. And. Yeah. And there's no video involved with this. Right. Like
00:33:56 Frank Butler: No,
00:33:56 Paul H: imagine
00:33:56 Frank Butler: I mean,
00:33:57 Paul H: doing all that.
00:33:58 Frank Butler: and, you know, and not saying this is a high quality podcast. I would definitely
00:34:01 Paul H: No,
00:34:01 Frank Butler: not put us into that argument, but
00:34:03 Paul H: even
00:34:03 Frank Butler: but you know, we
00:34:04 Paul H: to make a mediocre podcast.
00:34:05 Frank Butler: to make a mediocre podcast, it takes a lot of energy to do it right. And and so again, it comes back to I definitely get it. If there's something that would at least be fun to do. And I think this is fun for us, but
00:34:18 Paul H: Yeah.
00:34:19 Frank Butler: it's certainly not something that we, at this point in our lives, could build a career out of.
00:34:23 Paul H: Now I think though, like, I think that's how a lot of successful influencer type careers start, though. It starts for fun, but you've just happen. You've got something that appeals
00:34:32 Frank Butler: Fell into
00:34:33 Paul H: to people
00:34:33 Frank Butler: a niche. Yeah.
00:34:33 Paul H: and it just it takes off. And you know, a lot of these famous like well-known podcasts and stuff, not the ones that are started by people who are already famous, but the ones that just blew up on their own YouTube influencers. I'm a little more familiar with that scene, I guess, and than I am with this other stuff. But, um, a lot of them, they seem to repeatedly be baffled by their fame or by their success. Like, man, I really never intended. Like, I just wanted to show people how to fix chainsaws. Like, I had no idea this was going to turn into ten million followers and all this stuff. So it's it's not the sort of thing that if you set out for that, you're no one's likely to achieve that level of fame. But it's not something that most people don't have a plan to get there. It just happens, you know, and it's a matter of how they how they handle it. Just like it is for Hollywood movie stars and everything, too. You know, it's like you start small and it blows up.
00:35:35 Frank Butler: Well, you know, and there's so many stories in this article that really kind of hits you. And the one point that was really well made in here is about like teachers, right? I've, I've expressed this about the teachers, uh, for, you know, public school teachers, they're just underpaid, right? It used
00:35:54 Paul H: Yep.
00:35:54 Frank Butler: to be a good middle class job. Now, being a teacher is actually barely middle class, hard to make ends meet in certain jurisdictions now or areas. And and that's one of these people in here is like, you know, they enjoy teaching. But really, at the end of the day, the the money wasn't there. And so they started, you know, when the pandemic hit, it gave them this opportunity to spend more time working on their, you know, social media presence. And then they got paid for in this case, it was a two hundred dollars for Tempur-Pedic, which, you know, is not nothing. I mean, that's that you get paid. That makes you a professional.
00:36:29 Paul H: Yup, yup. And you have to start somewhere. You
00:36:32 Frank Butler: You
00:36:32 Paul H: know.
00:36:32 Frank Butler: got to start somewhere. And then from there, uh, said that she was making forty five thousand dollars a year. But here's the key. Uh, she said teaching is so underpaid. I didn't even have health insurance. I was struggling and working hard and shoving myself all over the city to make forty five thousand in a good year before taxes. But I get to be with my cats all day now with their transition. I
00:36:54 Paul H: Mhm.
00:36:54 Frank Butler: get to work. Work with my boyfriend. Um, now they're actually making money. She gets to stay at home. So there's something to this. But I think what it is is that, you know, everything that they have to do is look at what's going to be something that you think is going to resonate with your followers, right? So you are
00:37:12 Paul H: Mhm.
00:37:13 Frank Butler: working kind of
00:37:14 Paul H: Yeah.
00:37:14 Frank Butler: full time.
00:37:14 Paul H: That's true.
00:37:16 Frank Butler: And I think that's the thing is that you're having fun with it.
00:37:19 Paul H: Yep. And how long will that last that you'll. It will still be fun for you because you know you see a lot of people that just kind of burn out on being influencers. Um, some of the, some of my favorite podcast hosts from over the years have just retired and just said, I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. You
00:37:38 Frank Butler: Yeah.
00:37:38 Paul H: get tired of things and sometimes your moment passes. Like, especially if you know you're in your early twenties, you're young and you're energetic. You're maybe physically attractive and like, you're kind of like with the vibe of the moment and the vibe moves on eventually, and it's not often that you can move along. Keep up with it.
00:38:00 Frank Butler: Yep.
00:38:00 Paul H: So
00:38:00 Frank Butler: Yep.
00:38:01 Paul H: it's it a forever job, you know, for some people, for a select few maybe, but probably not for most people.
00:38:09 Frank Butler: I think that's that's the thing. And, you know, and even even our influencer that went through our VIP program, uh, which that's redundant because it's veterans Entrepreneurship program program
00:38:19 Paul H: Mm.
00:38:19 Frank Butler: through, uh, he, he was even saying that he doesn't think that he could keep up that content for too much longer when it was, it was just getting long in the tooth for himself. But also, you know, he's aging, right? And
00:38:34 Paul H: Mm.
00:38:34 Frank Butler: as he gets older, does that resonate the same way when he's been out of service longer and longer. And that's
00:38:40 Paul H: That's
00:38:40 Frank Butler: that's
00:38:40 Paul H: a good
00:38:40 Frank Butler: a
00:38:40 Paul H: point.
00:38:40 Frank Butler: legitimate, you
00:38:41 Paul H: Yep.
00:38:41 Frank Butler: know, kind of concern. So, you know, he's very smart to think about that. And
00:38:45 Paul H: Yep.
00:38:45 Frank Butler: and already being, you know, forward thinking. Now granted I'm pretty sure he got his MBA from NYU, so he's not he's quite business savvy,
00:38:56 Paul H: He's got
00:38:56 Frank Butler: although
00:38:56 Paul H: other
00:38:56 Frank Butler: he did.
00:38:56 Paul H: options. Yeah.
00:38:57 Frank Butler: Yeah. And he was very he did complain about sort of some of those MBA programs because he's like he's like essentially if you weren't going into finance,
00:39:05 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:05 Frank Butler: uh, you were, you know, lesser in that sense.
00:39:10 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:10 Frank Butler: And it's kind of funny because you're like. Yeah, I guess it makes sense with NYU being in New York and Wall Street and all. But, I mean, he's doing great. He's got a great business concept and he's he's been prepared to think about business. Um,
00:39:26 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:26 Frank Butler: the
00:39:27 Paul H: And
00:39:27 Frank Butler: only
00:39:27 Paul H: those.
00:39:27 Frank Butler: thing we had to get through was that he's the business, right? Like, it's, you know, it's like Ralph
00:39:33 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:33 Frank Butler: Lauren or,
00:39:34 Paul H: Right.
00:39:34 Frank Butler: you know, uh,
00:39:36 Paul H: He's
00:39:36 Frank Butler: Tommy
00:39:36 Paul H: the brand.
00:39:37 Frank Butler: Hilfiger, he's the brand. And,
00:39:39 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:39 Frank Butler: you know, it always starts that way. And then eventually it becomes its own animal. And that's what he needs to think about.
00:39:43 Paul H: Yeah.
00:39:44 Frank Butler: So.
00:39:45 Paul H: And apparently that same mindset has captured a lot of the Ivy League elite schools, even outside the business schools at this point. I don't know why, but I read a lot of, um, uh, what do you call it? Autobiographies by people in, um. Investment banking. Sorry I couldn't come up with it. And that's a recurring theme in those things. Yeah, I went to Harvard to study poetry, and I come out and I'm working a thousand hours a week at some, um, investment bank in New York City because, like, if you weren't going that path no one wanted. Like, they're like, why? What's wrong with you? Like, why wouldn't you? Like, this is why we're here. So I'm not surprised to hear, especially within NYU MBA program, that that would be the mindset there. Which again, it's just an exaggerated version of what we've been talking about,
00:40:38 Frank Butler: Yep.
00:40:38 Paul H: that if we really we offer people a view of these are the prestigious jobs that you can be proud of and brag about. And then there's all the other stuff. Don't worry about that. And if that's not your thing, if you're not like a high finance guy or gal and you think that's what you have to do to have a job to be proud of and get paid lots of money, I can understand why you'd think, oh man, if I could just go about my life and record it and put it on TikTok and make money, that would be so much better, because
00:41:06 Frank Butler: Yeah.
00:41:06 Paul H: it probably
00:41:07 Frank Butler: No.
00:41:07 Paul H: would be.
00:41:07 Frank Butler: And it does come across as being more fun, right? It
00:41:11 Paul H: Yep.
00:41:11 Frank Butler: sounds more fun. And then you feel like you're not working. And
00:41:14 Paul H: Mhm.
00:41:14 Frank Butler: I think that's the key is like when you feel like you're not working.
00:41:17 Paul H: If work seems like drudgery to you, than getting paid to not do drudgery is uh.
00:41:22 Frank Butler: It's a it's a nice alternative.
00:41:23 Paul H: It is. And as with, as with every inter cross-generational disconnect ever, you know, we are reaping what we sow. Like we're guess who raised Gen Z? You know, our age people and older like we raised this group of people like they were babies twenty years ago
00:41:43 Frank Butler: Um.
00:41:43 Paul H: and we were already adults. And so we collectively brought them up in such a way that they now have this mindset. They didn't just spontaneously all have a Gen Z meeting and say, all right, here's what we're going to do, everyone. We're going to have this real bad attitude toward traditional work. No. Like we we did stuff to make that happen. So kind of got to look in the mirror. It's all our fault.
00:42:12 Frank Butler: And on that bombshell.
00:42:13 Paul H: Blame the boomers. They're
00:42:14 Frank Butler: Ah, there it is.
00:42:14 Paul H: actually they're still around, right? We still have boomers left. Let's
00:42:17 Frank Butler: Yeah,
00:42:17 Paul H: blame them.
00:42:17 Frank Butler: let's blame them. Hey. It's easy. Way to go on that bombshell. Gen Z may hate work, but at least they've perfected the art of looking busy.
00:42:26 Paul H: Oh, well.
00:42:27 Frank Butler: Thanks for tuning in. Whether you're
00:42:29 Paul H: Good
00:42:29 Frank Butler: at a
00:42:29 Paul H: point,
00:42:29 Frank Butler: desk,
00:42:30 Paul H: good
00:42:30 Frank Butler: on
00:42:30 Paul H: point.
00:42:31 Frank Butler: a yoga mat, or pretending your cat is a coworker. We'll see you next time. Same time, same meeting. That could have been an email on
00:42:38 Paul H: Nice.
00:42:39 Frank Butler: the Busyness Paradox.
00:42:40 Paul H: Good day.
00:42:41 Frank Butler: Good day.
