Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast with Jaimie Fuller - Cutting Edge Technological Innovation in Swimming with EOSwimBetter Handsets

On today's Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast  we chat with Jaimie Fuller, the visionary behind EO Swim Better handsets and former Skins CEO.  We explore how swimmers of all levels can use this pro-level data analysis to elevate their swimming.  The handsets are  groundbreaking little beauties, that fit into your hand while you swim, capturing data that is sent back to an app on your phone.  It is like having your own personal biomechanist poolside! Jaimie gives us a behind the scenes look into their creation, as well as breaking down my own data from swimming with them.  And wasn’t I in for a surprise with my results?

Using my data as a reference point, we look at the force application, stroke rate and path, consistency and force vs time. Information that can quantify a swimmer's impulse and energy in the water.  The data is easy to read and can be looked at over the lap or stroke by stroke, from side on, overhead  and head on. Let's just say that the findings give me lots to work on to improve my stroke mechanics, which will make me go faster.  And isn't that what we all want?

We also chat about Jaimie's work as CEO of Skins and his work in sports activism.  Join us for this enlightening journey where technology meets technique, and passion for sport becomes a force for good.

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And if you are interested in purchasing your own handsets, go to eolab.com/swimbetter and use code TORPEDO at checkout to save 10% on any handset purchase. 

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Transcript

Danielle Spurling: 0:00

Are you keen to improve your speed in the water? Well, it all comes down to technique, and I just tried out a new device which actually gives you all that information. Eo Swim Better handsets are a nifty little device that fit into the palm of your hand while you swim. It records your stroke mechanics accurately by measuring the force of your hands in six different directions. In a matter of seconds, all that data is magically transferred to your phone. That means you can instantly pinpoint where you're losing force, spot any sneaky stroke path quirks that might be slowing you down and track how your technique evolves as you power through the laps. You can analyse your performance on a lap-by-lap or stroke-by-stroke basis, plus, with the option to sync your data to video. Making those technique tweaks is as easy as pie. Go to eolabcom backslash swimbetter and use code torpedo at checkout to save 10% on any handset purchase.

Danielle Spurling: 1:15

Hello swimmers and welcome to another episode of Torpedo Swim Talk podcast. I'm your host, Danielle Spurling, and each week we chat to a master swimmer from around the world about their swimming journey. Today, we chat with former Skins CEO and sports activist, jamie Fuller, about his new venture, eo Swim Better Handsets. These groundbreaking little beauties fit into your hand while you swim, capturing data that revolutionises your swimming performance. Jaimie gives us a behind the scenes look into their creation, which is part of his broader company eo lab, as well as breaking down my own data from swimming with them and wasn't I in for a surprise with my results? Let's hear from Jaimie now. Hi, jaimie, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining us.

Jaimie Fuller: 2:15

Thank you, Danielle, lovely to be with you.

Danielle Spurling: 2:17

Yeah, it's really good. I'm excited to talk to you and hear all about what we're going to chat about today, and we've got heaps to speak about. I wanted to start with your current project, which is as chairman and co-founder of EO Sports Tech and primarily the EO Swim Better handsets. What drew you to swimming and what inspired you to create them?

Jaimie Fuller: 2:39

So what inspired? It?

Danielle Spurling: 2:40

Yeah, what inspired? It?

Jaimie Fuller: 2:42

So just before I talk about that, just to give you a little background. So the whole purpose of the company? We're a business that specialises in developing products for elite athletes, but these products need to be able to be sold to the serious amateur. So it's about helping athletes improve their performance and there are ways of bringing technology to play in certain areas that can assist athletes to either perform better or recover faster, or minimize or prevent injury or even improve rehabilitation post-injury. So that sort of sets the landscape for everything we do.

Jaimie Fuller: 3:33

I've got two co-founders. One of them is a gentleman called Dr Kenneth Graham and Kenneth was 24 years in sports science roles at the New South Wales Institute of Sport, last 14 years as chief scientist. And so Kenneth, the principle behind the business is basically to take what's in Kenneth's head, because he's this man who's been helping elite and particularly Olympic athletes for a quarter of a century in bringing science to their sport and how to help them. For a very, very, very small number of people who get to engage with kenneth's massive brain. So the idea is is how do we take what's in his head and create systems and products and technologies that are then available for you and me and the people who I'll never be paid to play my sport. I'll never represent my country, but that doesn't stop me being seriously serious about what I do, and especially if I'm competing.

Jaimie Fuller: 4:37

So that was sort of how we started and how we set out, and the first product that we've taken to market is swim better, and it's a device that measures a whole bunch of really interesting stuff for swimmers, and part of the driving factor here is, when you look at swimming, it's probably the least invested sport in all sports across the world. You know, if you do a graph of how much money has been invested into each sport, on one side you've got football, soccer and you've got this much in football, and then basketball and tennis and gridiron and some boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it keeps going along and down, down, down, and at the very, very, very, very end is barely making a line on the piece of paper is swimming, and so we thought this creates a great opportunity for us to drag swimming into the 21st century and to bring in some super thinking from guys like Kenneth and other people with massive brains in this sport. To what can we then provide swimmers and when I say swimmers, even a rubbish swimmer like me, totally rubbish. I've taken eight minutes off my 800, which is great, don't get me wrong. I've gone from absolutely super crap or uber crap to crap right. I've taken eight minutes off. But at the other end of the scale you've got Kyle Chalmers, who missed out in the gold in Tokyo, caleb by six hundredths of a second. So where you've got've got you know the, the people, the guys and girls at the top of the Olympic pyramid looking for those tents, down to triathletes and rubbish swimmers who are looking for minutes, many, many minutes.

Jaimie Fuller: 6:39

It's, then, seemed to be a great opportunity, because it was territory that nobody else seemed to be exploring, and so what we've been able to do is we've been able to come up with a system that works on it's newton's third law, and newton's third law says for every action or force there is an equal and opposite reaction, and what that means is, if I wanna swim in that direction forward, I need my hand pushing that direction back.

Jaimie Fuller: 7:14

And so, if you can take that concept and imagine a pair of handsets that you slide onto the hand, and so they're minimally invasive, so they don't interfere with the fingers at all and this little plastic pot sits in the center of the palm of the hand and, if you can imagine, taking 50 times a second, detecting and and measuring first of all, how much force you're pushing through with the hand, secondly, the direction that the hand is moving, thirdly, the speed the hand is moving and fourth, the angle that the hand is facing.

Jaimie Fuller: 8:01

At that point you can get that data and then pump it through some incredibly sophisticated algorithms and then present it in a way that says, of all your effort that you're pushing through your hands, here's how much, in percentage terms, isn't are you using in a propulsive fashion. Here's you're using laterally left fashion. Here's how much you're using laterally left and right. Here's how much you're pushing down or, at the back end of the stroke, pushing up. And here's how much you're wasting during the glide if you're dropping your wrist or your elbow and presenting the palm of your hand to the water, so able to split it up and then from there pump out a whole bunch of absolutely fascinating information. It means that the swimmer or the athlete is then able to take that, look at it, including what their hand path is, make changes and then look at the objective data that comes out of those changes to see what a positive impact it's had on their swim.

Danielle Spurling: 9:09

Yeah, and I mean I've been a bit of a guinea pig this past week testing them out myself. So we're going to have a look at some of my data, but before we do that, I was going to say that I've really enjoyed swimming with them. They don't actually interfere with the stroke at all. They're very light and after you sort of turn them on and get used to them, you don't actually feel like it impedes your stroke at all, so I think that's a really positive thing.

Jaimie Fuller: 9:33

Um, with people wearing them, which is great, the vast feedback I get from people is notice them for the first lap or maybe two, and then I forgot that I had them on at all.

Danielle Spurling: 9:45

Yes.

Jaimie Fuller: 9:46

They become very unobtrusive and, like I say, they don't interfere with the fingers at all, so the feel of the water is impacted minimally. Now we've still got some research to do to understand exactly what impact, if any, they have on performance, because you'd think that it could potentially impact you negatively a small amount. So we're actually doing a research study at the moment with the University of Newcastle to work out, with some cross data with different athletes, to then work out exactly what the implications are to wear these. And, as you say, they're very light, so they weigh less than a slice of bread each.

Danielle Spurling: 10:31

So, yeah, I think they're really well engineered to to minimums I do too, and they actually fit into, because when you actually swim you've got that little cupping of your hand and it fits in there quite nicely. It doesn't sort of feel like it's like with paddles obviously. Um, they're quite, they are quite cumbersome and they don't fit into everyone's hand, but those seem to ergonomically fit in quite nicely, which I was very happy to swim with them and the obviously the paddles.

Jaimie Fuller: 10:58

You're wearing them because they change the force dynamics. So the whole point of this is to not change the force dynamics. We want to measure what you're doing without changing that dynamic by sticking a paddle surface on your fingers or over your hands.

Jaimie Fuller: 11:16

The other thing as well, danielle, that is relevant is that they're now approved by World Aquatics for use in competition in a pool. They're not approved for open water, they're approved for pool swimming in competition. So already I've had a couple of athletes tell me that they've used them in races. As Kenneth has drilled into my head for several years now, race data is absolute gold If you can get that race data. So I'm looking forward to, at some point, somebody standing up at the olympics and it won't be in the final, it'll be around with these on their hands and the uh and the camera is all going click, click, click and yes that would be revolutionary.

Danielle Spurling: 12:07

Yes, let's have a bit of a look at my data and then people following along can can see what it's all about, because I love the ease of doing it and then being able to upload it to my phone. I suppose looking at this and understanding it is going to give a real insight into and I can see see already that one hand is quite different to the other.

Jaimie Fuller: 12:27

Yeah. So just to give you a very quick explanation, what we've got along down the left. Here are your number of swims that you've done on, all done on the 26th of April. Here is your summary for this particular swim, which was just one lap of a 50-metre pool.

Jaimie Fuller: 12:49

The time is a function of the handsets going in the water and coming out of the water. So if you dive off the blocks and then your hands into the water, it's not going to measure the time between your feet leaving the blocks and your hands in the water, between your feet leaving the blocks and your hands in the water. So the time's not there to be absolutely accurate for your swim. Likewise, when you touch the wall, it doesn't detect it with the handsets, it's only when the hand comes out of the water. At the end of the last stroke it switches off. But the time is like accurate to the hundredth of a second.

Jaimie Fuller: 13:23

If you use them the same way, so you can compare your times as you go. You type the number of strokes for the swim, your average stroke rate across the swim, your distance per stroke for the lap and your average force per stroke. So how much you're pushing on average between both hands and down here, where we've got both hands are switched on. What we're looking at here is your impulse or the total force per stroke on average, and so you can see your left hand is pushing as you said. You've got a bit of an imbalance going on here because your left hand is pushing more than your right hand and don't default it. A lot of people say, oh, she must be left-handed. No, it doesn't work, doesn't necessarily work that way, and you can see.

Jaimie Fuller: 14:06

We also show the stroke rate now one of the things we can do is we can click on this little stroke icon here and now we can look in the lap and we can see every stroke in that lap right is blue, orange is left and you can see you're running across the top of your stroke rate and how that fluctuated across the course of the lap. So, bearing in mind that this is the total amount of force, what we really want to know is where that force is being applied. Remember we talked about Newton's third law. So we look at force field. These are the six numbers here that are the critical numbers. These are the six numbers here that are the critical numbers. We have the impulse coming through again, the left impulse of 2.1 and the right impulse of almost 1.7. So those are the numbers that came through from here, from the summary and then as well as those impulses we have here, the application of your energy.

Jaimie Fuller: 15:04

And this, obviously, propulsion, is the big one. So your hands can move in six directions in water. They can move left, right, up, down, forward and back, and so this is where we split that up and this is the biggie and the important one is your propulsion. And, in very layman's terms, the other five are robbing your propulsion. So don't get me wrong, you need to have some downward force and you need to have a little bit of lateral force, but if you've got too much, it's taking it straight out of your propulsion. And if we look at you here and we think and I want to preface this with this this is very new science and very new to me, so there's not a lot of old data and to be for to fall back on. So I can only give you, after having looked at a lot of data in the last 12, 18 months and a lot of elite data, I can give you a rough idea of what I think would be something to aim for. And it changes between a sprinter and a distance swimmer, and the difference is to do with the high elbow catch and a straight arm for a sprinter, because when you're swimming with a straight arm, you're going to get by definition you're going to get more downward force here than if you've got the high elbow catch and you're going over the barrel, because you'll very quickly and early get into that propulsive position. But regardless of both, it's good to have a little bit of left and right, and so when we're talking both hands combined, we think about 4% each. But regardless of both, it's good to have a little bit of left and right, and so when we're talking both hands combined, we think about 4% each, 4% left happy days, you're on a 4.

Jaimie Fuller: 16:55

But you've got a bit too much on the right. You're sort of over in the double digits here 10% Upward and hand drag. Ideally both of them should be zero. Hand drag is the opposite of propulsion, that's, the wrist dropping and the elbow dropping in the glide phase, and ideally you want that glide to continue to go down at a slight angle all the way. So we want that at zero, and upward as well. If you can have your hand perpendicular to the bottom of the pool all the way through your straight to the end and then lift out vertically, then you won't have upward force. If, on the other hand, like me. You've got awful technique and my hand pushes up at the back end. I collect a lot of upward force and I waste propulsive force with it. And so if you were four and four and zero and zero, then that leaves us 92 percent between propulsion and down. And are you? Are you a sprinter or a distance swim,Danielle?

Jaimie Fuller: 17:50

um more of a middle, middle distance, middle distance, so yeah for you, your, your objective should be to get your propulsive up to the 70 to 75 mark and your downward to 17 to 22. So and again it's about. It's about getting that high elbow catch going over the barrel and getting into that propulsive position. And then and we know that it's not just the hand, it's the whole paddle, including the forearm. But the beauty is that wherever the hand goes, the forearm follows. So the sooner you get into that propulsive position with the hand, the sooner you'll become propulsive with your forearm.

Jaimie Fuller: 18:30

But the purpose of the system is to say OK, if I were you, I'd say right, I've got a couple of challenges here. I've got, let's call it, 30%. I can drop from downward into propulsion if I can change my technique because I've got too much downward force at the front end of my stroke. So I've got an opportunity to take 30% out of downward and stick it into propulsion. I've got an opportunity to take a little bit out of my right wood and if I took 30 out of the downward, that would now become 63. And then, if I took five out of the downward, I'm almost I'm pushing 70. So then what you can do is you can then hop back in the water, make some changes, capture it and then look at what the outcome of those changes are. And I've got to tell you, danielle, the best way to do this is what we call the fast feedback loop, which entails if you can put your phone at the end of the lane and you start in the shallow end and you do two laps and then stand in the shallow end, download the data to your phone, look at this slide and you'll see. And if you, for example, you're 33% here, if you made a change, and then you might find the 33 becomes 40 and the 48 downward becomes 40, and you'd go okay, that's worked. Now I need to do more, and you make more and you do it again and again and in a very short period of time you'll find and I did this with a swim coach in Michigan last year where, together and it never occurred to me to do this in the pool, and he was the one who said I'm going to put my phone down at the end of the line this is a seven times Olympic coach and he did two laps, did 100 meters and he was 26% propulsive.

Jaimie Fuller: 20:28

This is a man who qualified for the 1980 Olympics, right? So he's not just a coach, he's an older man, but he was 26% propulsive and I watched him over the course of one session go 26, 33, 42, 53, 62%. He went from 26 to 62% propulsive because he had, like you, he had too much downward but he had a lot of lateral. I mean, he was taught, you know, those days with the s very much the s shape and obviously you know if that hand's doing a lot laterally like this, it's sending you that way, it's not sending you that way. So by the end of it it was really interesting because when he started he had this really wide S going on. When he finished he still had an S, but it was much narrower and he also maintained the hand facing back towards the feet all the way through and that changed his data and changed his stroke dramatically and made him so much better so interesting?

Danielle Spurling: 21:31

because, yes, I was. I was definitely taught that uh s shape and, although I think to myself I've changed it, I obviously haven't.

Jaimie Fuller: 21:41

And well, let's have a look. Let's have a look, because we've still got to do a bit of a deeper dive. Let's call out a couple of things for you, because this is both hands combined. What's really good is we can turn the left off and we can see. What's interesting, your propulsion is almost exactly the same on both. You know you are 33% on the left and you're 31% or 32% on the right, so it's very, very equal, equal. Your downward on the right is 52, your downward on the left is 45, but your left hand has got. That's where that right hand is going. So you've got a little left moving to the right, um, but you don't have a lot of right. Moving to the left, you've got a bit there, but not that. So you're able to focus on each hand and you can then not diagnose, but you can see where those opportunities are the most for one hand versus the other, which is great.

Jaimie Fuller: 22:38

If you are so inclined and there are some data whack jobs out there then you can go over here and click on the stroke icon and now you can look at every single stroke and you can look at this data for every stroke of every lap and see how it changes and see how that propulsion is moving around. You know we're at 40, 36, 29, 30. So you can see 27. You can see across the course of the lab how that changes. But really this joint view or just a single hand view gives you plenty of information to then as a starting point. The next thing we like to look at is the hand path, and we present the hand path here in three different views. So we have the side on and, by the way, the red is the glide phase, the blue is the pool and the gray is the recovery, and then when we go to the next stroke, the blue changes to orange. So we've got the side on view.

Jaimie Fuller: 23:43

We've got the overhead view view. We've got the overhead view and then we've got a head on view, as if you were swimming towards us, so you can look at every single one of these, and we've got a tiny slider here for the stroke. So this stroke took 1.73 seconds from start to finish. That's, hand entry to hand entry, 1.73 seconds.

Danielle Spurling: 24:07

And where that little red dot?

Jaimie Fuller: 24:08

is is where your hand is at the start. At time equals zero and so at time equals zero over here. That's the red dot. Now if I move that red dot down to say halfway through the stroke, you'll see this is where your hand is at that point in time. So we're able to not only map the hand path of the stroke but we're also able to map the position of the hand at any point in time during that stroke. So that's the hand path. Where it's probably best to look at what's going on is in the consistency chart.

Danielle Spurling: 24:48

And in the consistency chart.

Jaimie Fuller: 24:50

What we see here is we see every stroke in that lap overlaid, one on top of each other. Now I look for two things. I like to see symmetry, and what's interesting about this, daniela, is and what's interesting about this, danielle, is, there's not much going in the way of symmetry. If we look at the overhead here, you'll see your right hand has got a different path to your left and it's not unusual. But in a perfect world you'd like to see them and, and I'd say, most elite athletes have what I call the question mark.

Jaimie Fuller: 25:25

So it sort of starts at the top, comes out a bit, comes in and then goes straight back. So it's like a question mark, a mirrored question mark, and so normally I see that quite symmetrical and you can see here that you've got, you know, some crossover here, happening with both hands and remembering in particular it was your left hand has got more right hand force. But we'll get to that soon and we'll have a look at that. But also, side on, it's really interesting because you've got a very different depth profile. Now I I caution people to draw conclusions about breathing too quickly. Having said that, something tells me that you're breathing to the left, do you know, no breathing.

Jaimie Fuller: 26:16

To the right we're breathing to the right, well, it's really interesting because you're actually going deeper on your right hand. Normally when I this, it tends to be that when someone's breathing to the right, their left hand goes deep, their left shoulder drops, and as their left shoulder drops, their hand goes deeper. And it's the same the other way. If you're breathing to the left, the right shoulder drops, but there's a different pattern. What I'd suggest you do is stick a snorkel on and do it again, take the head rotation out of it completely and see if this changes. And ideally you want balance in a perfect world. And so if you can get that balance and reframe your hand path to give you a balance both overhead and side on, then reintroduce breathing.

Jaimie Fuller: 27:11

And as you know, you know the whole point about breathing is to minimize that head rotation. You see just the corner of the mouth come out above the waterline to just try and minimize the impact to the stroke and everything else. Then you can work on introducing that and minimizing whatever happens. And again, the beauty of it is you can see exactly what the outcome of whatever changes you do in the stroke and you can play with this. You can turn one hand off here. In fact, we can turn both hands off and then we can build it stroke by stroke if you like, so you can see if there's any order to how those shapes are moving or changing, by just building one on top of each other. Or if you want to do in a 50 meter pool, 25 meters full on and then 25 meters slow, or whatever, you can do that and you can spot patterns or anything like that. Right, yes, so this is our consistency.

Jaimie Fuller: 28:12

Stroke phases I'm not going to spend any time on, because stroke phases, frankly, is really for the people that are looking to shave a tenth of a second off when you're a biomech or an Olympic level coach with an Olympic level swimmer. They'll look at this data and they'll work on it, because we basically look at you know each of the phases in hundreds of a second and split them up, looking to see what's going on on a lap average and also on an individual stroke. But this is the next one is our force versus time, and this is the engine room of the system. This is not just how much force we're producing, but exactly where in the stroke we're producing that force. And when I look at this, I see a couple of interesting things and I'm going to show you how to read it first. So I'm going to turn off one hand and we're just going to look at the right hand to start. Oh, and I'll just quickly show you. So this is your breakout stroke. At the beginning we don't count that. We don't count the breakout stroke as a stroke. So this is stroke one here and stroke two and so on. But I'll include it for this and then I'll blow this up a bit and just to show you how we can read this, the three phases that we're looking for.

Jaimie Fuller: 29:29

Right between here and here we're detecting no force at all Hands in recovering hands out of the water. So this is where the hand enters the water for the glide. This is the glide here, and what you'll notice here, daniel, is your negative in the glide, that's your hand drag. So you've got a little bit of hand drag, as you can see, from here to here. Then we start pulling and we're catching here and we pull and then you're hitting peak propulsion, because we're on the propulsive vector only, and here you're hitting propulsive force peak and then something's happening and it's all dropping off. It's coming down almost to zero, and then something's happening and it's going back up again and then the stroke finishes and we go into recovery and then we start the glide and catch and so on.

Jaimie Fuller: 30:19

So it's very easy to read the three phases in your force versus time. I know most people when they look at this chart they go, oh my God, you've got to be a scientist to understand this. No, you don't. It's really very simple. So what we're seeing here, as you can see the pattern on almost all of these strokes, excuse me, is this double peak? And what this is telling us, daniel, is this area, this valley in here, that's lost propulsion and I know what it is.

Jaimie Fuller: 30:55

I know what it is and I'll show you.

Danielle Spurling: 30:57

And remembering I haven't seen this done before.

Jaimie Fuller: 30:59

But the beauty about the system is we can look at propulsive, but we can also overlay lateral force as well.

Jaimie Fuller: 31:09

And so when I pump this up and show you how to read the lateral force and this is our propulsive force, as you can see in the dark blue and then this turquoise is our lateral force and, as I showed you with the propulsive, when it's positive it means the hand's moving back towards the feet and when it goes into negative in the glide, it means the hands pushing the other direction. Similarly, similarly with the lateral forces, when it's positive it means the hands are facing outwards and when it's negative the hands are facing inwards. So you can map what the hand's doing all the way through the stroke. So let's have a look at this stroke here Remember, this is where the hand enters the water and you've got a little bit of hand drag, just a little bit of hand drag going, but at the same time we've got positive lateral force. So not only and I'll exaggerate here not only have we got the hand drag, but the hand's facing outwards.

Jaimie Fuller: 32:24

So when you're doing your glide it's starting like that and at this point it's rotated. Now and then as it starts to pull, you've got a bit of inward force happening. But here and it's really interesting when you look at this, because what you're seeing here is right there on that lateral force that hand has done that, it's changed direction, and that change of direction here means you drop off your force. So if you imagine, as you're pulling, if your hand rotates, you're losing water and as you lose water you lose propulsion. So the impact has to be that your body slows down, it decelerates and then it rotates back and then it's in the phase where pull becomes push, which tends to be below the shoulder as it comes in and it rotates. Interesting to see this little change down here in lateral force, which is a change which is like a little wobble, and maybe that's daniel, it could be a, it could be a strength thing, because if you're not strong enough to hold water through the full phase of the stroke, something's got to give, and it tends to be the hand rotates and slips. It might be something to do with your hand path and your hand might be rotating. It might come out and rotate and then come in significantly. We should have a look at the left hand and see what the left hand yeah, this is really interesting. In fact, look, it's interesting, isn't? Look at? Look at this lateral. It's like a mirror, isn't it? It is, you know, here where you're losing your propulsion, and then down here, look where it bottoms out and then pops back up. You can see. It's the change in lateral force here. Same story here. You know it's a real and and the beauty about this.

Jaimie Fuller: 34:52

So look at, look at that. You know, this is stuff that nobody can see and you can't see your video either. This is data that you can see and you can't see on video either. This is data that you've got to have something like this to be able to see quite clearly what's going on. You can then, if you want, you can synchronise this with video too, which is just awesome. So you can synchronise it with video and you can then go frame by frame and move, and that'll move the pointer across and it'll move the video frame by frame, and and that'll move the the pointer across and it'll move the video frame by frame, and then you can see. So some people who are very visual learners, you know, particularly kids who don't believe what the coach is telling them, right? So when you show them something like this and then you show them on the video and you can see that hand rotate just as it's doing here, and they go oh, okay, now I believe you yeah, it's.

Jaimie Fuller: 35:41

It's such powerful data, so it's amazing now the other thing we can do is we can turn the lateral off. We can look at vertical too, and so with vertical force, just as with the others, when we're negative down here that's downward, and so you can see, here hand goes in the water for the glide. Again you've got that hand drag happening there, but then you've got this downward force happening here at the front end of the stroke and then you lose it here and it's interesting again that it coincides with your drop of propulsion and then at the back, see this little bit at the back. It's only a little bit, it's not much, it's nothing to worry about.

Jaimie Fuller: 36:21

And if I were you, I'd be focusing more on, you know, the the right hand lateral force that we saw on the left hand, and you know how do you get, because you can see you've got a lot of downward force going on here. How do I transition a lot of that downward force which might be, you know, maybe you're dropping your elbow a bit, I don't know. And if you are dropping your elbow at the front end, then that hand tends to sink a little bit like that, as opposed to the high elbow and bringing the shoulder into play and going over that barrel. It's a bit hard to diagnose exactly, but you've got something here that you can look out for.

Jaimie Fuller: 37:03

Where it gets really interesting is when we go on to the last one, because this is where we get to look at a number of these things together. Again, we've got here the stroke path, so we select a stroke. We've got here the stroke path, so we select a stroke. We've got the stroke path and again we can look at it side, on overhead, or head on view when I want to look at lateral forces.

Jaimie Fuller: 37:28

I want the head on view. When I want to look at vertical forces, I want the side on view. So we're going to look at the lateral here. I'm going to turn the lateral on and this is now. And over here we've got our slider again. But this time, as I move this slider, it not only moves that red dot, but it moves the red line, and so you can see, as we move here, that red line.

Jaimie Fuller: 37:54

So let's go to here and we're pulling, and there's not a lot of lateral force at play at all there. And here's where we're hitting our peak force that's about to drop off and you can see. Here's where we've got that change in lateral force. And because it's going to come down here, that's inward and that inward coincides. You can see where the hand is at that point. It coincides with that hand not only rotating but moving inwards as well. So as it moves, inwards is where we lose our propulsion. And then here, remember I said, when pull becomes push, which tends to happen below the shoulder, you can see right here where it is, because it's about to go straight back. And as we go, straight back.

Jaimie Fuller: 38:42

look what happens here. We go back up. Now you've got a couple of little wobbles going on. In the meantime You've got a couple of little wobbles down here, which has caused you some more little valleys, but I wouldn't be so much worried about that little valley. The opportunity here is this big valley. That big valley is caused by that hand. I would suggest not only coming in on the hand path but facing inwards too, and as it's doing that, you've lost your propulsion all the way through to the end. And then here's where it exits the water and you can see here where we come out at no force and then you've got the recovery just there.

Jaimie Fuller: 39:24

So this is the view that enables you to look at in 50th of a second increments, the combination of the hand path, the hand position and the forces being generated in multiple vectors. It's really really powerful as to what you can see. And if I look at the left right, same story. You know, here you've got inward force and you can see here that hand is moving right inward there and at the same time it's generating this inward force here, and then right here, is about to drop off the cliff. And where it drops off the cliff and a bit in here, and that hand position changes slightly, and then here again it's about to come straight back, or near enough straight back, which is then going to push it back up to maximum propulsion, exit the water and recovery.

Danielle Spurling: 40:23

So this is the one where you can really dig in very deep and look at exactly what my hand's doing on each stroke yeah, I mean such powerful feedback and I love what you said about the biofeedback of having it at the side of the pool, because I think you know you can do those and come home and upload them all. But if you're not having that constant feedback about what's happening in the stroke, you can't change it, because I'm a bit of a visual learner myself. So seeing that is great feedback, I'm going to try that next time and put it at the side of the pool and get some constant feedback and see if I can change that. I'm very conscious of that kind of I do that kind of action definitely, but I didn't realise I was losing so much water and propulsion in doing so.

Jaimie Fuller: 41:12

And there's a guy that I lean on quite a lot in the us, a guy called jonte skinner. Now jonte held the world record in the 70s for the 100. He never competed in the olympics because he's south african. So in the 70s, with apartheid, he was excluded. He then went on to become head coach of the team usa in the early 2000s and jonte said to me, he me, he said Jamie, he said we all need a little bit of lateral force. You know that whole feeling for the water and getting a bit of lateral. And it was Jonti was the one who best who articulated that. 4% and 4%. You know, he said to me, jamie, I think what feels right to me is in that three to five percent window for the left and the right hand in the combined view on the force field. And so it's, it's.

Jaimie Fuller: 42:03

It's not a question of saying we want to become automations that just, you know, hand comes in, goes straight back, because we've got to, we've got to switch on muscles. Yeah, I mean. That's the other thing. I'm constantly asked, daniel, oh, how do I compare with kyle charmers? And I I say no, no, no, this system doesn't compare you with somebody else, this system compares you with you. I mean, we're all keen to see what they look like.

Jaimie Fuller: 42:27

But let me tell you, everybody's very different, because we're only talking about one factor here, which is the hand, which is propulsion.

Jaimie Fuller: 42:35

We're not talking about kick, we're not talking about body drag, we're not talking about hip roll and we're certainly not talking about individual flexibility. I mean, you can imagine what someone like Phelps is like, you know that massive wingspan and how flexible he is in his shoulders and where he switches on particular muscles at different parts of the stroke, but let alone the kick. So they've got other things they bring to the table. So you know looking, and not to mention the fact that, and particularly women, are really good at slipping through water beautifully and streamlining beautifully, whereas blokes like me, I pull a lot of force, but I have to because my swim position isn't beautiful and flat. I'm sort of I'm not quite, you know, fred Flintstone with my toes tickling the bottom of the pool. I'm anything but beautiful. So I have to make up for that with brute force, whereas women being a lot, lighter and also women's fat content, make them slightly more buoyant than men, and and and they can streamline better.

Jaimie Fuller: 43:47

Women have got other aspects and other attributes that they bring to this. So comparing people with people doesn't work. But looking at myself and how, what my objectives are and what changes I'm going to make to try and get to those objectives, and then some of those that's yeah, definitely, I hear what you're saying.

Danielle Spurling: 44:08

I mean I look at the, the two differences between my left and my right and I know that I've had shoulder troubles in my left, so some some of that. Obviously they they mirrored a little bit in the shape, but they were different in the depth, as you pointed out. But I think looking at what you've got up on screen now, in trying to get those forces a little bit more equal and not have that drop off, is probably what I need to concentrate on, not worry so much about those two initial diagrams being exactly the same, because I think that with the injury that's going to affect it has affected my flexibility a little bit and probably a little bit with the strength as well. But I think addressing where my hand is going is a good, really good starting point.

Jaimie Fuller: 44:53

And let me tell you you're dead right, because if you've got a physical impairment, it leads to one of two things you either accept it and just that's the way it is, or, alternatively, it might then bring in an interesting conversation with a physio about depending on where that injury is. I've got a chap who does a marathon swimming where that injury is. I mean, I've got a chap who does a marathon swimming who's been using this and he had a significant shoulder surgery and he has two very different hand parts like incredibly different hand parts, but he's had to accept it. That's just the way it is yeah, I mean it's.

Danielle Spurling: 45:32

It's got that application as well and obviously when you're returning from injury, you can compare it with that data that you had before.

Jaimie Fuller: 45:39

Precisely. And hopefully you'll see that come closer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Danielle Spurling: 45:46

No, that's such amazing feedback. It sort of blows my mind. I thought I was actually swimming quite well, but obviously not.

Jaimie Fuller: 45:58

As I keep saying to people, these are not problems, these are opportunities for improvement.

Danielle Spurling: 46:02

Exactly, yeah, and I love being able to sort of have that feedback so that I can make a change, which I think is really valuable. And I think that a lot of master swimmers, a lot of our listeners, swim by themselves or swim with a group of people. They don't even have a coach. So this kind of information is so valuable to them, being able to investigate that, and I think a lot of master swimmers are very motivated and triathletes as well to improve their swimming stroke and technique. So I see this kind of thing as the way forward, particularly for people without any coaches and high-level coaches. Our Australian swimmers and other Olympic teams around the world have that the way forward, particularly for people without any coaches and high level coaches. Our Australian swimmers and other Olympic teams around the world have that information there. But, as you say, we've never had this before, but I think it's really valuable.

Jaimie Fuller: 46:48

And that's why I said you know, our whole business principle is how do we take this sort of and you're right, this hasn't even been available to Olympic swimmers. They have a thing called a tether line. So in fact the Aussie guys have got one. They call Rex because it was named after Rex Hunt, because it's effectively it's a fishing line that connects to the back of the cosy of the swimmer and they dive in and start swimming and it runs out against a spool and it's got some sort of mechanism that measures the acceleration and deceleration as the swimmer goes out. But obviously when you've got something like that, the longer it goes out you end up with a bit of a belly in it. It becomes less accurate the further you go, whereas we've engineered the tech into these things to become far more accurate and also available for everybody. Because you know you've got to be in the Queensland Academy of Sport or in En-Swiss or or with Swimming Australia to have access to recs and then you've got the setup time and the biomex and all that sort of stuff. The philosophy of the business is well, how do we create systems for the elite, using tech that then are available for not the mass but, you know, for those that are sort of serious about competition, and that competition doesn't need to be me racing against somebody else, it can just be me getting better myself and it feeds itself. So yeah, it's going to take a while to become ubiquitous.

Jaimie Fuller: 48:22

I mean, you mentioned triathletes. There is an equivalent for a bike. The bike's got a thing called a power meter and you know they've been out for 25-odd years and it's interesting because these are not cheap, daniel. There's a lot of money invested in these, and so these things retail for between $1,000 and $1,350 Aussie a pair. The difference is the $1,000 pair has got a 15-minute recording chip in it. The $1,350 pair has got a 90-minute recording chip, and so that's your hardware cost. Then on top there's a membership fee and a lot of people say, well, if I'm going to spend a grand, if I'm spending a grand, I don't expect to pay a monthly fee as well. Sorry, but there are. There's a lot of data costs, because everything the data, the video, everything stored in the cloud, every interaction, every download, backwards and forwards there's a significant amount of data costs, not to mention the ongoing innovation, new functionality, because we're constantly rolling out more and more features and functionality.

Jaimie Fuller: 49:28

I mean that's just the way. I mean already we do three strokes, we do freestyle butterfly and backstroke. We will do breaststroke, but it won't be till later this year. It's a significant change in breaststroke. But there's a monthly fee as well, and in Aussie terms it's $200 a year or $20 a month, and so it's not cheap. But what you can do is you can have a number of people share one pair of handsets as long as they've got their own membership, so it'll cost them $200 a year. And then if, for example, as they've got their own membership, so it'll cost them 200 bucks a year. And then if, for example, if you've got five of them plopped together and each chuck in 200 bucks, then you know you can buy the the 15 minute for a thousand bucks and then another couple hundred a year now I get triathletes saying, oh, it's too's too much money.

Jaimie Fuller: 50:17

It's too much money. And this is coming from somebody who spent 15 grand on a bike, 1,500 on a wetsuit, $4,000, $5,000 on a new set of wheels, $4,000 on a new saddle and 1,500 plus on a power meter. And I say to them you realise that power meter is nowhere near as sophisticated as these things. There's this sort of mental block with some of them that yeah, but swimming's meant to be free. I expect to spend money on cycling. I mean, cycling costs a lot of money. I get that, but swimming shouldn't cost. And so it's the same with competition swimmers. You know once you've got your goggles and your cosy. But you know if you look at the tech suits, what do you pay for? Tech suits these days?

Danielle Spurling: 51:05

They're getting up to $800.

Jaimie Fuller: 51:06

I was going to say $600, $700, $800.

Danielle Spurling: 51:09

Yep.

Jaimie Fuller: 51:10

How long do they?

Danielle Spurling: 51:10

last. Not more than one competition really, although as a Masters athlete, I'd, you know, draw mine out longer than that.

Jaimie Fuller: 51:19

You can squeeze it, but at the end of the day, our data in the US says that competition swimmers are generally spending around $2,000 a year on their tech suits. Well, I would suggest a one-off purchase of these for $1,000 is just as good, if not a better, investment that just keeps going. So they're not cheap. No-transcript. A whole bunch of videos that explain operating, reading data, all that sort of stuff, and you can appreciate. Eventually, daniel, eventually we'll be able to integrate artificial intelligence and machine learning, and so when you take your data and if you were looking at your data, eventually the system will pop up and say hey, daniel, you know you've got a bit of a challenge here. With your downward force, you're pushing too much at the front and you need to be getting over the barrel. And if you click here, it will take you to a video that will give you a drill to show you what you can do.

Danielle Spurling: 52:29

So I mean, that's where it's going to go. That's where it will go for sure. Yeah, Do you see? I know that swimming's not the only thing you're investing in. Do you see other sports that you're going to branch out to, or you're just focusing on getting this one as good as it can be?

Jaimie Fuller: 52:47

so we tend we tend not to want to be pigeonholed into a specific sport, he having specifically done one in just a second. So if you look at, for example, we've got another device which is a portable electroencephalogram, an EEG. The sign shows that a concussed brain responds differently to a non-concussed brain to certain evocations through light. So it looks like a virtual reality headset. It flashes lights in your eyes and there are five sensors that sit at the base of the visual cortex and they measure the brain's response to those flashing lights at a certain amplitude of 15 ohm. And when you can see what the brain's reaction is, then you can say there's a high likelihood of you being concussed. And this system has only just been approved by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States, the FDA, and we're about to go through the process here with the TGA.

Jaimie Fuller: 53:49

So there's one. So it's multi-sport every football coach you can imagine, cycling, boxing, martial arts, you name it. There's that. We've got another device in development which is a little sweat wearable. So for athlete performance, optimal hydration is really important, and there is a direct correlation between your hydration levels and your sweat levels. And so not only do we measure your volume of sweat, so we can tell you exactly how much you've sweat through your total body. But within that sweat, we measure the concentration of five different analytes, so we can tell you potassium, calcium, magnesium, sodium and chloride, how much of those you need to replenish and how much volume in order to get you back to optimal, optimal hydration. So again, basketball, cricket, football, rugby, running, gym, whatever any sport that involves sweating, it won't work in water.

Jaimie Fuller: 55:01

It won't work in water, but every other sport. So our philosophy really is you know how do we create these products and these technologies? All under the one brand, which is EO, and EO, by the way, is Latin for progress.

Danielle Spurling: 55:17

I was going to ask you that what it stood for.

Jaimie Fuller: 55:19

Yeah, Because we're all about our DNA is about accelerating human progress through sport. So it's not just accelerating human progress in sport, but through sport. So we use sport as a lens to look at society and how sport makes society a better place through more than just good health. You know. How can sport help society to eradicate society from things like homophobia, you know, racism and all that sort of stuff. So there are ways that we can use our brand for what we think is social good. So that's sort of the primary goal eventually is as a brand, how we operate. But our first step is this really cool little.

Danielle Spurling: 56:07

Really cool little device. Yeah, yeah, and I know you mentioned a little bit about sort of homophobia and making things better in the world through a sports lens and I know when you were prior to this, you were a CEO of Skins, which is, for those people listening who don't know, was a compression activewear company. I know at that time you were sort of instrumental in withdrawing some sponsorship from different companies because of those kind of things. Can you tell us a little bit about what made you sort of get to that conclusion and why you moved on from that position?

Jaimie Fuller: 56:46

So, just as we articulate our DNA here around accelerating human progress through sport, progress through sport With Skims, it was about fueling the true spirit of competition. We recognised that sport has got this. So sport is so powerful. It's not just about what happens on the rectangle of the football field or the court, the basketball court or the swimming pool. It's about the role that sport plays in society in general. You know, my grandfather was a eastern suburbs chook supporter. My father was a chooks fanatic. I'm a chooks fanatic. That sort of thing, how it gets passed down from generation to generation, and the influence that sport has on us and how we form our attitudes. And you know, one of the fundamentals behind the skins brand was always um, looking at how we can use skins to go into society and and change some views.

Jaimie Fuller: 57:51

So whether it was to do with the gay marriage debate or but before that, I went to an organisation in London called Stonewall Stonewall is this LGBT advocacy group and they had rolled out this Rainbow Laces campaign within the Premier League in the football to bring rainbow laces to Australia. And so we created the Rainbow Round of Sport and had elite athletes in all codes, plus more than just football. We had surfers, we had netballers, we had all these people, for one weekend a year, would place their laces on their boots. I say, surfers, surfers, wrap their leg ropes with rainbow laces, right? We had swimmers who were wrapping them around, right? So this was their way of saying. You know, homophobia has got no place in society or in sport, and so we did that for a couple of years and we distributed 300 000 pairs of rainbow laces, and it was a a great way to help all the other work that's being done by other organisations.

Jaimie Fuller: 59:00

One of the things that we did as well was we sponsored teams and we had a. We just signed a sponsor I think it was 2013 with Melbourne Storm. This literally two weeks after we signed the sponsorship deal. Then it all blew up and if you looked at our agreement with them because we had a what's the word?

Danielle Spurling: 59:23

a manifesto.

Jaimie Fuller: 59:24

We had a little manifesto that articulated what we stood for as a brand and I made sure in every one of our sponsorship agreements it says, you know, party A Melbourne Storm, party B skins whereas party B belongs believes in the following and then it was our manifesto which talked about the true spirit of competition and what we stand for. And then it went into the commercial detail and all that rubbish. So there was an absolute clear vision in our organisation that we partnered with individuals, clubs, teams, associations and that at some point we were gonna come across some cheats. And I honestly I thought it was gonna probably come from something. I thought it's, you know, most likely it'll blow up in cycling. But the one that really blew up was Melbourne Storm and they were done for salary cap abuse and so this sort of came out and I remember it came out.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:00:25

I was living in Switzerland and I woke up in the morning and you know it was all over the papers sort of blown up overnight and by three o'clock that day, my in switzerland, I set off a termination agreement to melbourne storm saying and and it was a we, we moved very quickly because of there was no shades of gray, there was no doubt. You know it was. It was quite clear, and it was egregious in its nature as well. So, and it was, it was. Commercially, it was a difficult decision to make, but when you believe in something you know and you treat yourself.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:01:01

You can't sit there and say, oh, but gee, this deal was so good. You know, I really want to, I really want to say you can't, your integrity reasons, you've just got to say no.

Danielle Spurling: 1:01:13

I admire that integrity so much and I'd like to see that more in more of our leaders these days. But I think you you demonstrated that then and and also with your involvement in the Change Now Cycling, which was the big drug scandal in cycling. Can you give us a bit of a bit of a your take on on what happened there?

Jaimie Fuller: 1:01:30

So 2012 was when it blew up with Lance and the UCI is the global governing body of cycling and, like everybody, I thought, well, you know, this is terrible, they're going to have to come and do something about it. And they did nothing. So I ended up publishing an open letter which I put in the Sydney Morning Herald. So I ended up publishing an open letter which I put in the Sydney Morning Herald I think it was a full page letter in the Sydney Morning Herald that basically said to, was addressed to the president of the UCI and said do your job or step aside and let somebody in who can do their job, and that created a huge amount of interest in the cycling industry. It didn't create interest in the cycling industry. It didn't create interest in the Joe public, but in cycling it did. And the next thing you know is I was contacted by a guy who used to be the head of ASADA, the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Agency, and he put me together with the CEO of USADA, the US Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, and then that sort of set off, this chain reaction which culminated in me bringing, I think, about 15 or 20 people who were sort of leaders in the world of cycling came together in London for a two-day conference which culminated in a press conference and published a pathway to change the culture of cycling. Because it turns out, and what then became clear is it wasn't a Lance Armstrong problem. Lance was a symptom, he wasn't the problem. The problem was the culture of doping in cycling, which needed changes at the top level of the UCI, and we advocated and campaigned for the president to lose his job and he did at the next election, which was I mean, I think it was the second time in 35 years the president of an international federation had lost an election. It had happened once before in boxing, I think in 72. And then we made it happen in the UCI. So it was one of those things where one of the things we were trying to do was to show brands that you can play an active role and you should play an active role, and if you don't, then I think you're complicit.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:03:53

And we see this a lot, particularly with the big boys, with the Adidas and Nikesikes, that when you see like awful, appalling behavior from the likes of the, the executive committee of fifa, and we know now the corruption that was going on and we saw six or seven leading football officials arrested in Zurich at six o'clock in the morning at the Bar-O-Lak Hotel. You know where you've got this built on, this massive, this edifice of corruption. And you talk about intent and leadership. Well, these guys are all in there for the money for themselves. I mean, that's all they're about is just how do I, how do I? And they wrought the system at the expense of everybody else. And when you look at grassroots here in football terms, you know if you've got kids in New South Wales or Queensland to go through an elite pathway, they're paying three and a half four grand a year. And that's money that is being stolen at the very top by these people who were proven, and some of them are in jail and others bound for life and all sorts of stuff, corruption, that goes on.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:05:11

So I think that there's absolutely a role that brands could play and should play, and when you see this sort of stuff and so with football, because I did a campaign there called New FIFA now and where I was really successful, I went to, this was leading up to the World Cup in Qatar, in Doha, and I flew to Doha and I got smuggled into labor camps where there were these migrant workers living in the most disgusting and appalling conditions. So I took footage and I interviewed workers from Nepal, bangladesh, pakistan, north Korea, I mean from these countries where their poverty is rife, and they were taken to Qatar to work where the first thing that happens to them is they have their passport taken off them so they're trapped A lot of cases. They're not paid right, they just don't get their money and there's no system for them to address that.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:06:15

So anyway I got all this footage and I went back to london and we we cut a short commercial, a short film called the hypocrisy world cup, and what we did was we targeted the seven fifa sponsors and basically we said dear coca-cola you talk about, you know, advocating for human rights, how do you reconcile your sponsorship of FIFA and FIFA corruptly awarding the World Cup to this nation and their treatment of these workers? And at that stage the projections were that there were going to be something like five and a half thousand people die on the building of the World Cup infrastructure, on the building of the World Cup infrastructure, which extends beyond the stadiums, by the way, it's not just stadiums, it's everything else.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:07:09

And we were successful in getting Coca-Cola, visa and McDonald's to back our call for Sepp Blatter to resign as president of FIFA. So there are ways that you can if, if it comes from, it's got to come from a culture or a dna, that is that brand. For us it was. It was about fueling the true spirit of competition, which gave us a voice to do with governance and to do with integrity, and to call it out and to celebrate it. And the whole thing was we want to celebrate the great stuff, but you can't be scared about also calling out the bad stuff when you say it.

Danielle Spurling: 1:07:46

Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's so much sports washing for want of a better word going on, like with the Live Golf you know Saudi Arabia backing that and who knows. I mean obviously the big thing that happened in swimming in the past few weeks with the Chinese drug scandal and what's happening at WADA. I mean, is that sport washing, what's happening there? I mean, what are your thoughts on that whole scandal?

Jaimie Fuller: 1:08:10

Look, it's really tricky. I had a very good relationship with WADA back at. You know, this is sort of about 10 years ago, and then I, by the way, I even went on to do another campaign with remember, ben johnson 1988. So I went on to do a five-week world tour with ben, where ben was fronting a um, a campaign called choose the right train, to basically say, look, don't do what I did. I did it. I got caught, my whole life was ruined, I lost everything.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:08:46

And that sort of culminated in presenting a petition to the IOC, and that petition was about saying we need to fund WADA properly, and at that stage, wada's annual budget was 26 million US dollars a year. Now, that was half the salary of Kobe Bryant. So this is 2013,. Right? So one basketball player and WADA's full budget for the year was half his salary. So I sort of was advocating back then for WADA to be better funded, not just by IOC but also by government, and to be given the tools to be able to implement the checks and balances that need to be put in place. And then subsequently, we know what happened with Russia in the 2018 Winter Olympics. I know, I know, it's just you couldn't. If you wrote this stuff. Let's say you were looking it up, but my relationship with WADA has been finished for a long time so I don't, I don't know, I can't, I can't really say you know, when WADA's come out and said what they've said about this being a genuine contamination food issue, I don't know.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:10:00

I read dennis cotrell's interview yes, I read that too you know where um he's saying look, you know there is no way in the world this is going on. But as someone said to me the other day, well, dennis wouldn't necessarily know he wouldn't know that'd be hidden from him if it was happening.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:10:18

Yeah, you also mentioned. You know we talked before about Michelle Ford. Michelle, really well, you know there's a lady who was disadvantaged back in the 70s because of a national program and I met people on my tour with ben and I remember meeting a young lady in the us who she and I went and had lunch in a diner and she was just in floods of tears because she had been doped without her knowledge and the effect that it had her on her physiologically. Right, I won't go it, but she was distraught as a young woman about the long-term impact on her body that the doping had happened. She was told these were vitamins.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:11:07

You know we're just giving you supplements and vitamins and then to find out later on that these were steroids and we know what steroid does, particularly for genitals. So you just don't know. And it's terrible that we just are increasingly becoming less trusting in these organisations where once upon a time you'd like to, you'd think that it was a matter of well, you know, the prime minister or the president or the government. I mean, particularly if you look at the last president of the United States you wouldn't believe anything that he said.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:11:45

But you know, once upon a time you'd say well, the president says this, or the prime minister says that, or the government says this, or why do we say that? And you'd believe it. These days we live in a society where we've got to question everything. So I don't know. It's really tricky, Daniel. Without knowing everything about it, I wouldn't like to make a call.

Danielle Spurling: 1:12:06

Yeah, no fair point.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:12:09

Having said, that Chinese swimming purchased our product. That's good. We're now, I think, over 15 countries around the world where national coaches and National Olympic Federations have bought it and are using it. Yes, Our programs.

Danielle Spurling: 1:12:26

Which is amazing. We'll have to put a link to EO in our show notes so people can check it out further. But I'm a real advocate for it and I'm certainly going to use it again and see if I can fix up those faults that you pointed out so interesting.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:12:45

I'd be really keen to see how you go over time.

Danielle Spurling: 1:12:48

Yes, yes, it's not easy.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:12:51

And I say this to everybody this is a very difficult sport. There are so many things to be thinking about as you're going through. You know every single component and the advice I give to everybody is you know if you've got three things you need to change, pick one, go for the lowest hanging fruit, concentrate on that, repeat it, do it and get it until it's muscle memory. Then go do the second one same story, and then make sure you're combining numbers one and two until you're comfortable. Then go do the third one.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:13:26

And everybody's looking for the silver bullet. Everybody wants to take the pill that fixes it instantly. Well, guess what? There's no such thing. That works like hard work. So you've got to be prepared to put it in. But if you do, this system will provide you the information that you need to be much better. And I'm keen to see, danielle, how you go over time. You know if you can take your propulsion from 32 up to 60 plus and do that without losing something, ie without increasing your drag, and there's no reason why you can't. If you can do that, your times will get a lot better.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:14:09

Yes yeah, or everything else you've got to do. The same stroke rate.

Danielle Spurling: 1:14:14

Yes so.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:14:15

I had a coach in the US who came to me after a while and said, oh, it doesn't work. You know, I've got a guy who's gone from 35% to 57% propulsive but his times haven't improved. And we sat down and did a Zoom call and looked at the data and I said to him hang on. When he was, you know, 35% propulsive, his stroke rate was 37. Now he's got his propulsion up. His stroke rate's dropped down to 29. I said you've got to now edge the stroke rate back up because you've also got to have, you know, speed of the hands as well.

Danielle Spurling: 1:14:53

Well, look, thanks for joining us today, jamie. It's been a real eye-opener speaking to you, and I've really enjoyed learning all about um eo and um your contribution to, to swimming and to sport in general. Um, so good luck with the company and I think you'll go from strength to strength thanks, daniel, much appreciated.

Jaimie Fuller: 1:15:10

Thank you for your time.

Danielle Spurling: 1:15:12

Yeah, take care, okay, bye. Thanks to Jamie for talking with us today. As Jamie mentioned, kyle Chalmers is using the handsets in his quest for Olympic gold in Paris, but I think they have a definite place in all swimmers kit bags. I'm certainly intrigued and motivated to use this information to improve my own swimming. As I mentioned at the start of the episode, the link for the Eolab handsets and code will be in the show notes of this episode. Till next time, happy swimming and bye for now.