{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":0.12,"endTime":1.92,"body":"The word"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":0.12,"endTime":1.92,"body":"fairness can mean very different"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1.92,"endTime":3.12,"body":"things to different people."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3.45,"endTime":6.93,"body":"When it comes to fairness in sport,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3.45,"endTime":6.93,"body":"our minds go straight to issues such"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":6.93,"endTime":11.52,"body":"as match fixing, performance enhancing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":6.93,"endTime":11.52,"body":"drugs and athlete exploitation."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":12.075,"endTime":15.344,"body":"But considerations of fairness also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":12.075,"endTime":15.344,"body":"extend beyond the playing field."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":15.795,"endTime":21.045,"body":"Areas like equal opportunity, gender,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":15.795,"endTime":21.045,"body":"race and socioeconomic background."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":21.405,"endTime":24.915,"body":"Most of us think we know pretty clearly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":21.405,"endTime":24.915,"body":"what's fair and what's not, but there"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":24.915,"endTime":26.625,"body":"can be much more nuance than you think."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":26.985,"endTime":30.465,"body":"What would be condemned as outright"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":26.985,"endTime":30.465,"body":"cheating in one sport, could be applauded"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":30.465,"endTime":32.205,"body":"as cunning gamesmanship in another."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":32.564,"endTime":35.144,"body":"And the perception of what is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":32.564,"endTime":35.144,"body":"fair and reasonable can change"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":35.144,"endTime":38.775,"body":"substantially over the eras, as"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":35.144,"endTime":38.775,"body":"society and technology evolve."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":39.135,"endTime":42.855,"body":"The elephant in the room relates to who"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":39.135,"endTime":42.855,"body":"we are trying to make sport fairer for."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":43.545,"endTime":48.375,"body":"Is it the athletes, the sport itself, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":43.545,"endTime":48.375,"body":"fans, or those with a financial stake?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":48.855,"endTime":52.275,"body":"Can we actually be fair to all"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":48.855,"endTime":52.275,"body":"parties and who should be making"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":52.275,"endTime":53.895,"body":"and enforcing these decisions?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":54.525,"endTime":55.605,"body":"I'm Sam Robinson."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":55.815,"endTime":57.345,"body":"And this is One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":63.815,"endTime":65.705,"body":"Hello and welcome to One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":65.795,"endTime":69.125,"body":"A podcast about the real"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":65.795,"endTime":69.125,"body":"issues, forces and innovations"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":69.304,"endTime":70.985,"body":"shaping the future of sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":71.535,"endTime":74.025,"body":"I'm your host, Sam Robertson,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":71.535,"endTime":74.025,"body":"and on this episode we're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":74.025,"endTime":76.185,"body":"asking can sport ever be fair?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":76.605,"endTime":78.745,"body":"My first guest is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":76.605,"endTime":78.745,"body":"Professor Sigmund Loland."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":79.195,"endTime":82.305,"body":"Sigmund is a Professor of Sport"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":79.195,"endTime":82.305,"body":"Philosophy at the Norwegian School"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":82.305,"endTime":88.365,"body":"of Sport Sciences in Oslo, where he"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":82.305,"endTime":88.365,"body":"was also rector from 2005 to 2013."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":89.15,"endTime":91.67,"body":"He's also a guest professor at"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":89.15,"endTime":91.67,"body":"the Swedish School of Sport and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":91.67,"endTime":93.38,"body":"Health Sciences in Stockholm."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":93.95,"endTime":97.52,"body":"Professor Loland has published extensively"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":93.95,"endTime":97.52,"body":"in the area of sports ethics and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":97.52,"endTime":100.79,"body":"philosophy, and has been a visiting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":97.52,"endTime":100.79,"body":"scholar at a number of universities"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":100.79,"endTime":102.77,"body":"across Europe and North America."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":103.52,"endTime":109.01,"body":"He was President of the European College"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":103.52,"endTime":109.01,"body":"of Sport Science from 2011 to 2013, and is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":109.01,"endTime":113.595,"body":"a current member of the World Anti-Doping"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":109.01,"endTime":113.595,"body":"Agency ethics committee, and the research"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":113.595,"endTime":116.055,"body":"committee at the IOC Olympic Study Center."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":116.415,"endTime":120.105,"body":"He's a lifelong skier and former"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":116.415,"endTime":120.105,"body":"coach, including at the elite level."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":120.465,"endTime":123.945,"body":"For all of these reasons, and many more,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":120.465,"endTime":123.945,"body":"he represents a very appropriate person"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":123.975,"endTime":126.285,"body":"to talk to about this episode's topic."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":126.774,"endTime":128.445,"body":"Sigmund, thank you so much for joining us."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":128.895,"endTime":130.065,"body":"Thank you for inviting me."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":130.485,"endTime":133.095,"body":"Let's start"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":130.485,"endTime":133.095,"body":"perhaps in quite broad terms and talk"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":133.095,"endTime":134.475,"body":"about the definition of fairness."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":134.655,"endTime":137.625,"body":"It seems to me that if we're going"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":134.655,"endTime":137.625,"body":"to speak about this topic, it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":137.625,"endTime":138.855,"body":"important to define it first."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":139.72,"endTime":143.35,"body":"Now it appears that it can differ quite"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":139.72,"endTime":143.35,"body":"substantially in both the literature"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":143.38,"endTime":147.369,"body":"and practically depending on who framed"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":143.38,"endTime":147.369,"body":"the term and what their intention is."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":148.209,"endTime":151.72,"body":"For instance, a policy developer may"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":148.209,"endTime":151.72,"body":"see the question very differently"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":151.72,"endTime":155.5,"body":"to an ethicist, and an athlete might"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":151.72,"endTime":155.5,"body":"be quite different again altogether."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":155.859,"endTime":160.209,"body":"Now in your work, you've written a lot"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":155.859,"endTime":160.209,"body":"about various approaches to sports ethics."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":160.57,"endTime":163.269,"body":"Do you yourself personally"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":160.57,"endTime":163.269,"body":"have a preferred definition for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":163.269,"endTime":164.95,"body":"the term 'fairness' in sport?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":165.84,"endTime":169.86,"body":"Yes, I think, as you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":165.84,"endTime":169.86,"body":"say, people can disagree on whether"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":169.86,"endTime":174.21,"body":"a particular action or the use of a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":169.86,"endTime":174.21,"body":"particular kind of technology is fair or"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":174.21,"endTime":179.88,"body":"unfair, but still, I think there are some"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":174.21,"endTime":179.88,"body":"general ideas that most people share."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":180.57,"endTime":184.62,"body":"One idea is the idea of fairness"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":180.57,"endTime":184.62,"body":"as an individual obligation."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":184.68,"endTime":188.72,"body":"So, when you're engaged in a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":184.68,"endTime":188.72,"body":"ruled, governed practice, like a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":188.72,"endTime":193.63,"body":"sport competition, you are somehow"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":188.72,"endTime":193.63,"body":"obliged to keeping the rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":194.54,"endTime":199.4,"body":"And the basic idea behind this is that if"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":194.54,"endTime":199.4,"body":"you cheat to get an exclusive advantage,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":199.76,"endTime":201.899,"body":"you depend upon others rule adherence."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":202.55,"endTime":205.13,"body":"If everyone cheats, there"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":202.55,"endTime":205.13,"body":"is no practice, right?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":206.109,"endTime":208.1,"body":"This the classic free rider problem."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":208.49,"endTime":211.97,"body":"So cheaters depend upon"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":208.49,"endTime":211.97,"body":"others' collaboration."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":212.56,"endTime":215.62,"body":"And they do this without"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":212.56,"endTime":215.62,"body":"doing their own share."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":216.64,"endTime":219.49,"body":"This is the basic and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":216.64,"endTime":219.49,"body":"intuitive idea of fairness."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":219.76,"endTime":225.34,"body":"Disagreements often come up, whether"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":219.76,"endTime":225.34,"body":"you're allowed to hold the shirt,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":225.43,"endTime":227.38,"body":"holding in soccer, where is the limit?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":227.8,"endTime":229.84,"body":"Some would claim this is the limit."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":229.84,"endTime":230.68,"body":"Here is the limit."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":231.07,"endTime":235.48,"body":"Or they would say that, well, you can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":231.07,"endTime":235.48,"body":"hold onto the shirt a little bit more."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":235.63,"endTime":236.62,"body":"People disagree."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":237.16,"endTime":241.72,"body":"In this sense, there are disagreements,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":237.16,"endTime":241.72,"body":"but the basic idea of fairness, that"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":241.75,"endTime":246.34,"body":"when you engage in a collaboration,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":241.75,"endTime":246.34,"body":"in a ruled, governed collaboration,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":246.82,"endTime":248.32,"body":"you're supposed to do your share."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":248.61,"endTime":249.96,"body":"That is, your fair share."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":250.47,"endTime":251.46,"body":"Keeping the rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":251.67,"endTime":254.52,"body":"Because you depend upon others"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":251.67,"endTime":254.52,"body":"keeping the rules, for the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":254.52,"endTime":255.72,"body":"whole thing to be meaningful."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":255.72,"endTime":259.04,"body":"That's the basic idea I think most"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":255.72,"endTime":259.04,"body":"people can agree upon, actually."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":259.469,"endTime":260.089,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":260.94,"endTime":263.48,"body":"Then there"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":260.94,"endTime":263.48,"body":"is structural fairness."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":264.02,"endTime":266.18,"body":"That is, are the rules fair?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":266.42,"endTime":269.0,"body":"Is the sport fair in its structure?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":269.99,"endTime":273.98,"body":"Structural fairness is usually"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":269.99,"endTime":273.98,"body":"discussed with reference to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":274.04,"endTime":276.83,"body":"ideas of equality of opportunity."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":277.63,"endTime":281.82,"body":"Elite sport, competitive sport,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":277.63,"endTime":281.82,"body":"is about a particular kind of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":281.92,"endTime":283.75,"body":"inequality between persons."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":284.14,"endTime":286.03,"body":"It's not about equality, really."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":286.48,"endTime":291.4,"body":"Equal opportunity to perform as a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":286.48,"endTime":291.4,"body":"means towards measuring, evaluating"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":291.4,"endTime":293.26,"body":"a particular kind of inequality."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":293.74,"endTime":296.75,"body":"Who can perform the best"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":293.74,"endTime":296.75,"body":"as defined by the rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":297.59,"endTime":300.83,"body":"How can you rank competitors"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":297.59,"endTime":300.83,"body":"at the end of a competition?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":301.609,"endTime":304.94,"body":"The question then is what are"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":301.609,"endTime":304.94,"body":"the inequalities you want to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":304.94,"endTime":307.58,"body":"take away from this evaluation?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":308.119,"endTime":310.76,"body":"It's like an experiment,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":308.119,"endTime":310.76,"body":"it's like science, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":311.39,"endTime":315.91,"body":"It's in many ways, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":311.39,"endTime":315.91,"body":"have some confounding variables"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":315.95,"endTime":317.78,"body":"as, in a scientific experiment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":317.915,"endTime":322.445,"body":"Well, first of all, we need identical"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":317.915,"endTime":322.445,"body":"external conditions in those sports."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":322.745,"endTime":323.915,"body":"This can be a challenge."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":323.915,"endTime":325.275,"body":"So you try to compensate."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":325.275,"endTime":327.395,"body":"You have wind measurements"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":325.275,"endTime":327.395,"body":"in track and field."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":327.905,"endTime":331.385,"body":"Perhaps the most extreme"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":327.905,"endTime":331.385,"body":"compensation example is ski jumping."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":331.835,"endTime":335.675,"body":"You have an advanced rule system in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":331.835,"endTime":335.675,"body":"that sport, where you try to calculate"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":336.035,"endTime":341.555,"body":"the impact of the changing wind on each"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":336.035,"endTime":341.555,"body":"jump before you give the end result."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":341.885,"endTime":343.085,"body":"So on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":344.164,"endTime":347.544,"body":"Similarly, in terms of external"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":344.164,"endTime":347.544,"body":"conditions, you have to measure"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":347.544,"endTime":349.465,"body":"performance in identical ways."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":349.615,"endTime":354.085,"body":"Everyone runs the same distance,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":349.615,"endTime":354.085,"body":"they are timed with the same"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":354.085,"endTime":356.005,"body":"technology, so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":357.185,"endTime":359.105,"body":"Secondly, you have equipment issues."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":359.615,"endTime":362.275,"body":"In many sports, you standardise equipment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":362.305,"endTime":367.985,"body":"In sailing you have strict rules on"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":362.305,"endTime":367.985,"body":"the boat, in javelin you have strict"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":367.985,"endTime":373.085,"body":"rules on the javelin, but not all"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":367.985,"endTime":373.085,"body":"sports are following up to this ideal."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":373.505,"endTime":375.575,"body":"In skiing, you don't have strict rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":376.145,"endTime":379.865,"body":"I mean, there are different qualities"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":376.145,"endTime":379.865,"body":"of equipment, which to me makes"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":380.045,"endTime":384.145,"body":"the competition unfair because what"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":380.045,"endTime":384.145,"body":"you want to measure, the ideal in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":384.145,"endTime":388.095,"body":"cross country skiing for instance,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":384.145,"endTime":388.095,"body":"it's not inequality in equipment"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":388.125,"endTime":389.685,"body":"but who is the better athlete?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":390.615,"endTime":393.675,"body":"So these are all inequalities"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":390.615,"endTime":393.675,"body":"you want to take out."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":394.515,"endTime":398.085,"body":"You have external conditions, you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":394.515,"endTime":398.085,"body":"have equipment, but the most difficult"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":398.085,"endTime":402.315,"body":"question and the third dimension"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":398.085,"endTime":402.315,"body":"here would be linked to individual"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":402.315,"endTime":404.145,"body":"inequalities between athletes."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":404.745,"endTime":406.405,"body":"It's linked to classification."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":406.455,"endTime":409.065,"body":"Should men and women compete"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":406.455,"endTime":409.065,"body":"together in good sport?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":409.635,"endTime":411.855,"body":"In some sports the response is no."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":412.365,"endTime":413.325,"body":"Then why not?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":413.385,"endTime":414.375,"body":"Well, it's unfair."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":414.945,"endTime":416.205,"body":"But why is it unfair?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":416.745,"endTime":420.705,"body":"Well, it is unfair that women,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":416.745,"endTime":420.705,"body":"statistically speaking, have less"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":420.825,"endTime":425.985,"body":"predisposition to develop, for instance"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":420.825,"endTime":425.985,"body":"on the hundred meter dash, explosive"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":425.985,"endTime":428.025,"body":"strength and speed as compared to men."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":428.735,"endTime":433.535,"body":"So then it's unfair to compete together"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":428.735,"endTime":433.535,"body":"because men have a given genetic"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":433.535,"endTime":437.585,"body":"predisposition, statistically speaking,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":433.535,"endTime":437.585,"body":"of developing more explosive power."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":438.035,"endTime":439.205,"body":"So, we classify."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":439.955,"endTime":444.575,"body":"And we classify according to age,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":439.955,"endTime":444.575,"body":"and we classify according to body"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":444.575,"endTime":449.015,"body":"size - weight in weightlifting,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":444.575,"endTime":449.015,"body":"combat sports - because these are"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":449.045,"endTime":451.055,"body":"inequalities we do not want to measure."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":452.0,"endTime":454.73,"body":"These are somehow given"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":452.0,"endTime":454.73,"body":"inequalities to an athlete."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":455.03,"endTime":457.52,"body":"It's not the result of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":455.03,"endTime":457.52,"body":"effort, of training."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":457.909,"endTime":463.94,"body":"It's not really admirable being a hundred"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":457.909,"endTime":463.94,"body":"kilogram boxer versus a 60 kilogram boxer."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":464.48,"endTime":468.77,"body":"It's not an inequality where"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":464.48,"endTime":468.77,"body":"the heavier boxer has this great"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":468.77,"endTime":470.66,"body":"advantage, competitive advantage."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":471.085,"endTime":475.195,"body":"That's not an inequality you admire as"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":471.085,"endTime":475.195,"body":"an outcome of development of talent."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":475.675,"endTime":479.275,"body":"So classification is again"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":475.675,"endTime":479.275,"body":"a big issue of fairness."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":480.025,"endTime":484.585,"body":"And these days, you know, with the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":480.025,"endTime":484.585,"body":"intersex challenge with Caster Semenya,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":484.585,"endTime":489.175,"body":"with women with so-called DST conditions,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":484.585,"endTime":489.175,"body":"where you have high testosterone"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":489.175,"endTime":493.405,"body":"levels, challenging the binary"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":489.175,"endTime":493.405,"body":"classification system in track and field."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":494.26,"endTime":496.3,"body":"Big issues of fairness arise."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":496.45,"endTime":498.76,"body":"And again, it's back"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":496.45,"endTime":498.76,"body":"to this basic question."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":499.12,"endTime":505.21,"body":"What kind of inequalities should be"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":499.12,"endTime":505.21,"body":"eliminated or compensated for in a sport"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":505.72,"endTime":510.82,"body":"and what kind of inequalities to we really"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":505.72,"endTime":510.82,"body":"want to include in our ideas of athletic"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":510.88,"endTime":512.68,"body":"excellence and athletic performance."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":513.24,"endTime":515.76,"body":"You talked"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":513.24,"endTime":515.76,"body":"about differences in sport there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":515.76,"endTime":519.0,"body":"And I just, as you were speaking, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":515.76,"endTime":519.0,"body":"wonder whether there's a relationship or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":519.0,"endTime":522.21,"body":"whether you've observed a relationship"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":519.0,"endTime":522.21,"body":"between those types of fairness."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":522.21,"endTime":527.38,"body":"For example, do you find that some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":522.21,"endTime":527.38,"body":"sports culturally are quite strong"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":527.4,"endTime":530.97,"body":"in certain elements of fairness from"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":527.4,"endTime":530.97,"body":"a structural perspective, as well as"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":530.97,"endTime":533.819,"body":"with the way that athletes respond"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":530.97,"endTime":533.819,"body":"to their personal responsibility?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":533.819,"endTime":536.91,"body":"Or are they independent of one"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":533.819,"endTime":536.91,"body":"another, do you find in most sports?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":537.67,"endTime":540.52,"body":"Well, I think"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":537.67,"endTime":540.52,"body":"sport cultures are different."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":540.7,"endTime":544.54,"body":"I think, as I said, in skiing, it's"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":540.7,"endTime":544.54,"body":"a generally accepted part of the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":544.54,"endTime":549.64,"body":"culture that your skis differ and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":544.54,"endTime":549.64,"body":"Norwegians put a lot of money into"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":549.64,"endTime":552.13,"body":"ski quality, preparation of skis."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":552.22,"endTime":553.815,"body":"It's science, basically."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":554.595,"endTime":558.615,"body":"And it takes a lot of resources and it"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":554.595,"endTime":558.615,"body":"strikes me that Norwegians are really"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":558.615,"endTime":563.745,"body":"proud about their preparation expertise,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":558.615,"endTime":563.745,"body":"the support systems around the athlete."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":564.135,"endTime":568.605,"body":"So somehow in skiing, it"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":564.135,"endTime":568.605,"body":"has become a competition."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":569.0,"endTime":573.11,"body":"Not just between athletes, but also"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":569.0,"endTime":573.11,"body":"between expertise systems around"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":573.11,"endTime":574.94,"body":"the athlete, supporting the athlete."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":575.87,"endTime":579.849,"body":"Whereas in another sport, I mean go"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":575.87,"endTime":579.849,"body":"back to track and field, go back to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":579.849,"endTime":584.47,"body":"the throwing events in track and field,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":579.849,"endTime":584.47,"body":"it would be completely meaningless if"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":584.47,"endTime":589.14,"body":"you don't have strict standardisation"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":584.47,"endTime":589.14,"body":"rules on the javelin or on the discus."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":589.9,"endTime":594.05,"body":"So depending on the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":589.9,"endTime":594.05,"body":"sports, the standardisation"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":594.069,"endTime":595.3,"body":"requirements are different."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":595.9,"endTime":596.92,"body":"Cultures are different."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":597.37,"endTime":601.29,"body":"I guess in sailing as well,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":597.37,"endTime":601.29,"body":"you have very strict rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":601.51,"endTime":605.98,"body":"You have these small margins expert"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":601.51,"endTime":605.98,"body":"systems can manipulate, but still you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":605.98,"endTime":608.31,"body":"have very strict standardisation rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":609.13,"endTime":612.28,"body":"Whereas in the skiing"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":609.13,"endTime":612.28,"body":"disciplines, not so much."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":612.405,"endTime":616.785,"body":"Because of also the significant"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":612.405,"endTime":616.785,"body":"impact of skiing factories paying"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":616.785,"endTime":620.444,"body":"for the sport, because they can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":616.785,"endTime":620.444,"body":"profile their own brands of skis."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":620.535,"endTime":621.104,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":621.525,"endTime":625.665,"body":"So this is a mix of commercial"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":621.525,"endTime":625.665,"body":"interests and a culture that"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":625.665,"endTime":629.025,"body":"has developed somehow where you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":625.665,"endTime":629.025,"body":"accept inequalities in equipment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":629.474,"endTime":634.314,"body":"But basically if you want to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":629.474,"endTime":634.314,"body":"measure the better athlete, the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":634.314,"endTime":636.644,"body":"better skier, this would be unfair."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":637.244,"endTime":638.744,"body":"I was"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":637.244,"endTime":638.744,"body":"about to ask you, but you started"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":638.744,"endTime":640.154,"body":"to touch on it there already."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":640.204,"endTime":644.074,"body":"It's like so many things that we explore"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":640.204,"endTime":644.074,"body":"in sport, the deeper you go, you find"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":644.074,"endTime":647.584,"body":"it's very complex and there's lots"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":644.074,"endTime":647.584,"body":"of interrelationships between systems"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":647.584,"endTime":649.234,"body":"and I think it's no different here."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":649.744,"endTime":652.654,"body":"But I was about to ask, why is this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":649.744,"endTime":652.654,"body":"accepted more in some sports than others?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":652.674,"endTime":654.004,"body":"Is it simply traditional?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":654.004,"endTime":656.344,"body":"Is that simply why it becomes accepted?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":656.344,"endTime":659.164,"body":"Because it's been with us"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":656.344,"endTime":659.164,"body":"for 10, 20, a hundred years?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":659.699,"endTime":662.669,"body":"I think there"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":659.699,"endTime":662.669,"body":"are two answers to that question."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":663.089,"endTime":664.499,"body":"The first answer is yes."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":665.009,"endTime":666.899,"body":"Back to skiing, a sport I know well."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":667.249,"endTime":671.279,"body":"An example, because in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":667.249,"endTime":671.279,"body":"historical ways skiers were"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":671.279,"endTime":673.289,"body":"responsible for their own skis."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":673.499,"endTime":676.769,"body":"To be a good skier you knew"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":673.499,"endTime":676.769,"body":"how to handle your equipment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":676.769,"endTime":678.449,"body":"It was part of the skill test."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":679.559,"endTime":684.559,"body":"Whereas skiing developed as a highly"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":679.559,"endTime":684.559,"body":"commercial, international elite sport,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":684.649,"endTime":687.529,"body":"sponsors came in, expert systems came in."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":688.259,"endTime":691.819,"body":"Skis were the responsibility for the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":688.259,"endTime":691.819,"body":"skiers, and were taken away from the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":691.819,"endTime":695.149,"body":"athlete and taken into the expertise room."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":695.659,"endTime":699.169,"body":"And then gradually this transition"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":695.659,"endTime":699.169,"body":"happened where the responsibility for"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":699.169,"endTime":703.369,"body":"equipment gradually was transferred to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":699.169,"endTime":703.369,"body":"an expert system and stayed that way."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":703.909,"endTime":706.879,"body":"So there is a historical"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":703.909,"endTime":706.879,"body":"tradition here and there."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":707.164,"endTime":711.604,"body":"And then there is the commercial impact"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":707.164,"endTime":711.604,"body":"and the commercial forces coming in."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":711.954,"endTime":712.754,"body":"Yeah, it's fascinating."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":712.906,"endTime":714.736,"body":"I just wanted to pick up on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":712.906,"endTime":714.736,"body":"some other things that you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":714.736,"endTime":716.296,"body":"mentioned at the start there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":716.356,"endTime":719.706,"body":"I tend to not be able to help asking"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":716.356,"endTime":719.706,"body":"about numbers because of course, it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":719.826,"endTime":723.361,"body":"my own background, but you talked a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":719.826,"endTime":723.361,"body":"little bit about technology earlier"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":723.361,"endTime":726.781,"body":"and you also talked about the ability"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":723.361,"endTime":726.781,"body":"of some of these sports that are"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":726.781,"endTime":731.581,"body":"quite well structured in terms of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":726.781,"endTime":731.581,"body":"fairness, also having quite specific"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":731.581,"endTime":732.931,"body":"and quite sophisticated measurement."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":732.961,"endTime":734.221,"body":"You mentioned discus, for example."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":735.121,"endTime":739.471,"body":"I wonder as we are able to get better"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":735.121,"endTime":739.471,"body":"technology and measure things with greater"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":739.561,"endTime":744.296,"body":"ease and greater specificity as well"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":739.561,"endTime":744.296,"body":"for that matter, whether that's going to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":744.296,"endTime":747.026,"body":"help us enforce fairness more in sports."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":747.026,"endTime":749.786,"body":"And it may be enforced isn't the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":747.026,"endTime":749.786,"body":"right word, but invoke fairness"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":749.786,"endTime":751.196,"body":"or make people more aware of it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":751.706,"endTime":753.596,"body":"Is that something that you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":751.706,"endTime":753.596,"body":"see a relationship between?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":753.616,"endTime":757.346,"body":"If we understand it better by building"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":753.616,"endTime":757.346,"body":"better models of fairness and have"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":757.346,"endTime":762.359,"body":"better data informing fairness, is that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":757.346,"endTime":762.359,"body":"going to help in not only educating"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":762.359,"endTime":764.939,"body":"people about fairness, but also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":762.359,"endTime":764.939,"body":"obviously governing sports as well?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":764.939,"endTime":765.629,"body":"Do you think that'll help?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":766.299,"endTime":770.694,"body":"Hmm, well, you have two"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":766.299,"endTime":770.694,"body":"ways of measuring performance in sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":770.964,"endTime":775.194,"body":"Simplistically speaking, you can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":770.964,"endTime":775.194,"body":"measure performance in exact,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":775.254,"endTime":780.894,"body":"physical, mathematical entities"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":775.254,"endTime":780.894,"body":"like metres, seconds kilograms, or"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":780.894,"endTime":785.104,"body":"you can measure in sports-specific"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":780.894,"endTime":785.104,"body":"entities defined in the rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":785.124,"endTime":790.674,"body":"So each sport, like goals,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":785.124,"endTime":790.674,"body":"games, points in tennis."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":791.184,"endTime":797.364,"body":"This is a different way of measurement,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":791.184,"endTime":797.364,"body":"not the exact, mathematical, fiscal kind."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":797.934,"endTime":800.844,"body":"The mathematical, fiscal kind"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":797.934,"endTime":800.844,"body":"is the more accurate one."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":801.264,"endTime":804.504,"body":"And one could think of even more"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":801.264,"endTime":804.504,"body":"exact measurement technologies"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":804.504,"endTime":805.794,"body":"here, as you indicate."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":806.124,"endTime":807.654,"body":"So what would that do?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":808.464,"endTime":812.004,"body":"Well, if a performance is supposed to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":808.464,"endTime":812.004,"body":"be something controlled by the athletes,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":812.004,"endTime":816.934,"body":"something admirable, and inequality in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":812.004,"endTime":816.934,"body":"two performances is supposed to be based"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":816.934,"endTime":822.034,"body":"on one athlete being better than the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":816.934,"endTime":822.034,"body":"other athlete in those things you can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":822.034,"endTime":828.484,"body":"control, and you keep on dividing these"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":822.034,"endTime":828.484,"body":"exact units in even smaller margins - in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":828.484,"endTime":833.909,"body":"hundreds, thousands, millions of a second"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":828.484,"endTime":833.909,"body":"- you end up measuring inequalities that"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":833.909,"endTime":836.279,"body":"nobody, no human, can really control."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":836.669,"endTime":839.379,"body":"So there is no real athlete impact."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":839.639,"endTime":841.529,"body":"You leave it somehow to chance."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":841.589,"endTime":843.269,"body":"And what is the point with that?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":843.509,"endTime":845.819,"body":"It may be interesting, it may not."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":846.599,"endTime":849.299,"body":"As long as you know what you're"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":846.599,"endTime":849.299,"body":"doing, it can be more accurate."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":849.784,"endTime":852.454,"body":"But sport is not a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":849.784,"endTime":852.454,"body":"scientific experiment, is it?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":852.904,"endTime":857.554,"body":"If you go into the games, like let's"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":852.904,"endTime":857.554,"body":"say soccer, of course you could"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":857.554,"endTime":859.154,"body":"have much more exact measurement."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":859.514,"endTime":861.764,"body":"If you want you can have a judging panel."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":861.944,"endTime":863.714,"body":"One goal gives five points."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":863.744,"endTime":864.944,"body":"It's a brilliant attack."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":864.944,"endTime":865.874,"body":"It's fantastic."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":865.874,"endTime":867.864,"body":"Tactical technical  performance."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":868.484,"endTime":873.344,"body":"Another goal is a self goal, it takes no"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":868.484,"endTime":873.344,"body":"performance really and gives half a point."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":873.944,"endTime":878.444,"body":"So that's a much more exact way of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":873.944,"endTime":878.444,"body":"measuring performance, but you don't"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":878.444,"endTime":880.004,"body":"want to do that in soccer, do you?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":880.664,"endTime":886.124,"body":"Because the fascination with the game"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":880.664,"endTime":886.124,"body":"is also the openness to chance, to luck,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":886.124,"endTime":888.314,"body":"to things teams cannot fully control."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":889.094,"endTime":894.464,"body":"So in one way you can enhance exact"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":889.094,"endTime":894.464,"body":"measurement, and in fairness, in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":894.464,"endTime":897.794,"body":"a particular sense of the word,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":894.464,"endTime":897.794,"body":"scientific fairness you may say."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":898.544,"endTime":902.324,"body":"But if you take this too far, you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":898.544,"endTime":902.324,"body":"depart from the nature of sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":902.834,"endTime":904.844,"body":"Sport is not a scientific experiment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":905.204,"endTime":909.154,"body":"Perhaps one of the core ideas to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":905.204,"endTime":909.154,"body":"explain our fascination with sport is"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":909.154,"endTime":911.074,"body":"that it mirrors life, in many ways."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":911.074,"endTime":912.904,"body":"It mirrors an open universe."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":913.414,"endTime":915.064,"body":"You don't want to control everything."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":915.544,"endTime":921.124,"body":"Part of the skill test in sport is to see"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":915.544,"endTime":921.124,"body":"how athletes and teams cope with chance."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":921.604,"endTime":924.904,"body":"You have an unlucky goal early"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":921.604,"endTime":924.904,"body":"in the game, a good team stands"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":924.904,"endTime":926.194,"body":"up, you know, they fight back."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":927.034,"endTime":927.994,"body":"They strike back."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":928.289,"endTime":934.289,"body":"A poor team is demotivated by the first"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":928.289,"endTime":934.289,"body":"unlucky goal, they do not struggle back."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":934.319,"endTime":935.669,"body":"They do not stand up."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":936.329,"endTime":939.569,"body":"So do you want this"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":936.329,"endTime":939.569,"body":"scientific-inspired measurement"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":939.569,"endTime":941.009,"body":"in performance in these sports?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":941.069,"endTime":941.819,"body":"Probably not."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":942.719,"endTime":945.959,"body":"Here is where sport differs"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":942.719,"endTime":945.959,"body":"from a scientific experiment."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":946.169,"endTime":948.869,"body":"Sport is based on a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":946.169,"endTime":948.869,"body":"different logic, basically."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":949.729,"endTime":951.019,"body":"Yeah, I think I agree."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":951.299,"endTime":954.529,"body":"I think there's a consideration with"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":951.299,"endTime":954.529,"body":"respect to, just because something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":954.529,"endTime":957.454,"body":"can be measured very specifically"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":954.529,"endTime":957.454,"body":"and very accurately doesn't"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":957.454,"endTime":958.744,"body":"mean that you should measure it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":958.744,"endTime":963.814,"body":"And so my attention turns to not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":958.744,"endTime":963.814,"body":"being a better measurement per se, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":963.814,"endTime":965.194,"body":"being a more meaningful measurement."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":965.194,"endTime":969.094,"body":"And so we should be measuring things"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":965.194,"endTime":969.094,"body":"that mean something, rather than because"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":969.094,"endTime":970.864,"body":"we can do it in a very accurate sense."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":971.344,"endTime":974.254,"body":"You touched on something else towards"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":971.344,"endTime":974.254,"body":"the end, and you use football as"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":974.254,"endTime":978.069,"body":"an example, and I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":974.254,"endTime":978.069,"body":"really good example of a sport that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":978.309,"endTime":982.039,"body":"is certainly grappling, from what I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":978.309,"endTime":982.039,"body":"can see, with its use of technology"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":982.039,"endTime":984.199,"body":"and particularly to govern fairness."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":985.009,"endTime":987.949,"body":"And obviously, culturally, it's a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":985.009,"endTime":987.949,"body":"sport that as you mentioned, has"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":987.949,"endTime":990.679,"body":"pushed back on certain elements"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":987.949,"endTime":990.679,"body":"of technologies for that respect."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":991.059,"endTime":996.519,"body":"If technology invoked a number of changes"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":991.059,"endTime":996.519,"body":"in how we could govern fairness, how"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":996.519,"endTime":998.839,"body":"could a sport stay up to date with them?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":998.839,"endTime":1001.019,"body":"How could they operationalise"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":998.839,"endTime":1001.019,"body":"them so quickly?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1001.019,"endTime":1004.379,"body":"Because when I look at the way that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1001.019,"endTime":1004.379,"body":"sports often make changes to the way"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1004.379,"endTime":1008.639,"body":"they govern themselves, you see it"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1004.379,"endTime":1008.639,"body":"almost hitting a crucial or critical"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1008.639,"endTime":1012.779,"body":"juncture, a high profile one-off"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1008.639,"endTime":1012.779,"body":"incident causes them to respond."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1013.229,"endTime":1014.489,"body":"It's generally less incremental."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1014.489,"endTime":1016.039,"body":"Is that something that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1014.489,"endTime":1016.039,"body":"you would agree with?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1016.449,"endTime":1018.529,"body":"I would"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1016.449,"endTime":1018.529,"body":"agree, absolutely so."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1018.819,"endTime":1023.579,"body":"And you mentioned soccer, which may"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1018.819,"endTime":1023.579,"body":"be a good example with the new video"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1023.579,"endTime":1027.389,"body":"assistant referee system, the VAR system."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1027.899,"endTime":1032.399,"body":"They implement this to enhance fairness"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1027.899,"endTime":1032.399,"body":"basically, or to correct referee errors."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1032.969,"endTime":1033.929,"body":"Who would disagree?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1034.059,"endTime":1038.079,"body":"Some decisions in a soccer game, in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1034.059,"endTime":1038.079,"body":"ball games, are yes and no decisions."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1038.409,"endTime":1042.969,"body":"I mean, these are factual questions where"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1038.409,"endTime":1042.969,"body":"you can, if you have the right technology,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1042.969,"endTime":1044.619,"body":"you can make the correct decision."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1044.949,"endTime":1046.299,"body":"Was the ball in or was it out?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1046.659,"endTime":1049.359,"body":"Was it over the goal line or"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1046.659,"endTime":1049.359,"body":"was it not over the goal line?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1049.779,"endTime":1053.159,"body":"Leaving this to referees and to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1049.779,"endTime":1053.159,"body":"referee errors, perhaps with the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1053.159,"endTime":1057.189,"body":"implication of falling out of a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1053.159,"endTime":1057.189,"body":"big tournament, missing the World"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1057.309,"endTime":1059.739,"body":"Cup final, not good for the sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1060.399,"endTime":1062.109,"body":"And not good for the referee either."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1062.744,"endTime":1066.404,"body":"So who would reject technologies"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1062.744,"endTime":1066.404,"body":"that can correct those mistakes?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1067.384,"endTime":1070.904,"body":"Well, a lot of people actually"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1067.384,"endTime":1070.904,"body":"reject that technology based on"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1070.904,"endTime":1073.274,"body":"some kind of nostalgia, I guess."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1073.694,"endTime":1075.284,"body":"And I wouldn't support that."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1075.524,"endTime":1080.834,"body":"I would support technologies that can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1075.524,"endTime":1080.834,"body":"enhance fairness, like the VAR technology."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1081.189,"endTime":1084.849,"body":"But other referee decisions have"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1081.189,"endTime":1084.849,"body":"to be made on good judgment and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1084.849,"endTime":1089.349,"body":"you need competent referees there"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1084.849,"endTime":1089.349,"body":"and then, so technology can never"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1089.349,"endTime":1091.689,"body":"replace a referee in a ball game."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1092.169,"endTime":1095.499,"body":"It can never replace the good"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1092.169,"endTime":1095.499,"body":"judgment of an expert referee."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1096.159,"endTime":1098.979,"body":"The expert referees can evaluate"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1096.159,"endTime":1098.979,"body":"the intention of a player."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1099.009,"endTime":1100.299,"body":"They evaluate a lot of things."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1100.719,"endTime":1104.199,"body":"But some issues, like the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1100.719,"endTime":1104.199,"body":"factual ones, should definitely"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1104.739,"endTime":1106.389,"body":"be measured by technology."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1106.509,"endTime":1108.219,"body":"That would make sport more fair."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1108.839,"endTime":1111.509,"body":"I know we haven't"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1108.839,"endTime":1111.509,"body":"talked about any real specific issues"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1111.509,"endTime":1116.219,"body":"of fairness in sport, in particular,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1111.509,"endTime":1116.219,"body":"the most topical ones right now and I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1116.219,"endTime":1119.819,"body":"know probably most of the listeners will"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1116.219,"endTime":1119.819,"body":"think of when they think of fairness."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1120.209,"endTime":1123.029,"body":"They probably think less about structural"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1120.209,"endTime":1123.029,"body":"fairness and more about things like"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1123.029,"endTime":1126.799,"body":"performance enhancing drugs and equipment,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1123.029,"endTime":1126.799,"body":"which we've talked about a little bit, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1126.799,"endTime":1129.029,"body":"gender, which you also mentioned earlier."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1129.719,"endTime":1131.609,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1129.719,"endTime":1131.609,"body":"mentioned drugs, doping."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1131.849,"endTime":1134.639,"body":"Today, a series of drugs"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1131.849,"endTime":1134.639,"body":"are banned for athletes."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1134.909,"endTime":1140.399,"body":"If drugs are on the banned list and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1134.909,"endTime":1140.399,"body":"you engage in sport and use them, you"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1140.399,"endTime":1142.619,"body":"break the rules, basically, you cheat."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1143.309,"endTime":1145.799,"body":"And the reason for cheating"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1143.309,"endTime":1145.799,"body":"is that it can pay off."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1145.799,"endTime":1150.779,"body":"It can give you a competitive advantage,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1145.799,"endTime":1150.779,"body":"provided that the majority of athletes"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1150.779,"endTime":1152.609,"body":"do not cheat in a similar way."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1153.649,"endTime":1157.669,"body":"And this is the classic free rider"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1153.649,"endTime":1157.669,"body":"problem, as I mentioned initially."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1157.699,"endTime":1161.689,"body":"It's unfair, but the bigger"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1157.699,"endTime":1161.689,"body":"question here is not a question"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1161.689,"endTime":1163.369,"body":"of whether you break the rules."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1163.639,"endTime":1167.769,"body":"It would be the philosophical"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1163.639,"endTime":1167.769,"body":"question of whether these"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1167.769,"endTime":1169.069,"body":"drugs should be banned at all."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1169.299,"endTime":1170.859,"body":"Should drugs be banned in sport?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1170.919,"endTime":1172.149,"body":"Performance enhancing drugs."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1172.959,"endTime":1176.769,"body":"There is a big international debate"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1172.959,"endTime":1176.769,"body":"here, among philosophers at least,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1177.159,"endTime":1180.819,"body":"about whether in the near future we"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1177.159,"endTime":1180.819,"body":"will live in societies where use of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1180.819,"endTime":1185.919,"body":"drugs, non-therapeutic use of drugs,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1180.819,"endTime":1185.919,"body":"will enhance, will become commonplace?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1185.919,"endTime":1191.949,"body":"It will enhance work performance, enchance"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1185.919,"endTime":1191.949,"body":"quality of life for the elderly, enhancing"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1191.964,"endTime":1197.364,"body":"concentration, physical performance,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1191.964,"endTime":1197.364,"body":"fitness, enhancing sexual ability."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1197.784,"endTime":1200.664,"body":"I mean, some of these drugs"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1197.784,"endTime":1200.664,"body":"are already here, aren't they?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1201.534,"endTime":1206.664,"body":"So are we moving into a society where"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1201.534,"endTime":1206.664,"body":"the use of drugs becomes commonplace and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1206.664,"endTime":1211.704,"body":"it's very difficult for sport to be some"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1206.664,"endTime":1211.704,"body":"kind of clean island in a polluted sea?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1212.904,"endTime":1217.074,"body":"Who knows, but definitely this will"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1212.904,"endTime":1217.074,"body":"be a big challenge lying ahead of us."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1217.104,"endTime":1219.834,"body":"And I guess we might be in it already."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1220.819,"endTime":1222.649,"body":"And one thing is the conventional drugs."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1223.039,"endTime":1227.929,"body":"We move into an era of individualised"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1223.039,"endTime":1227.929,"body":"medicine, into an era where already"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1227.929,"endTime":1232.879,"body":"today you have gene editing techniques"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1227.929,"endTime":1232.879,"body":"like CRISPR technology, where"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1232.879,"endTime":1236.869,"body":"you can more easily intervene at"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1232.879,"endTime":1236.869,"body":"a very early stage, genetically."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1237.519,"endTime":1242.349,"body":"And somehow we can imagine"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1237.519,"endTime":1242.349,"body":"constructing genetically the ideal"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1242.349,"endTime":1243.969,"body":"talent for a particular sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1244.599,"endTime":1245.949,"body":"So how can we deal with that?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1246.339,"endTime":1250.549,"body":"Let's imagine a child being born with this"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1246.339,"endTime":1250.549,"body":"fantastic talent, genetically constructed"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1250.549,"endTime":1252.419,"body":"talent, for let's say, the shotput."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1252.979,"endTime":1255.709,"body":"It's a healthy child, it"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1252.979,"endTime":1255.709,"body":"has a good upbringing, it's"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1255.709,"endTime":1257.689,"body":"fair, it's a moral person."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1258.139,"endTime":1265.269,"body":"The grown athlete uses no drugs, breaks"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1258.139,"endTime":1265.269,"body":"no rules, but this athlete is genetically"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1265.269,"endTime":1266.769,"body":"enhanced from the very beginning."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1267.459,"endTime":1270.339,"body":"You can't exclude this athlete from sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1270.399,"endTime":1271.399,"body":"It's a brilliant athlete."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1271.399,"endTime":1273.009,"body":"It's a fair athlete, a good person."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1273.429,"endTime":1277.509,"body":"So this just shows you that"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1273.429,"endTime":1277.509,"body":"sport ethics has its limit."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1278.089,"endTime":1281.059,"body":"What we enter now is really the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1278.089,"endTime":1281.059,"body":"ethics of human enhancement."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1281.059,"endTime":1283.129,"body":"And these are big questions in bioethics."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1283.699,"endTime":1287.449,"body":"We're already facing some of these"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1283.699,"endTime":1287.449,"body":"questions today, as I said, and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1287.749,"endTime":1291.099,"body":"some of these technologies are"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1287.749,"endTime":1291.099,"body":"used medically to cure illness,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1291.129,"endTime":1295.449,"body":"to improve problematic genetics."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1295.479,"endTime":1296.469,"body":"This is fantastic."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1296.469,"endTime":1300.579,"body":"It can give people better lives,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1296.469,"endTime":1300.579,"body":"but gradually also there will be"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1300.999,"endTime":1305.259,"body":"attempts to use the mass enhancement"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1300.999,"endTime":1305.259,"body":"technologies, and this will cause"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1305.259,"endTime":1307.269,"body":"considerable challenges to sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1307.959,"endTime":1314.249,"body":"So some see sport as somehow a front"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1307.959,"endTime":1314.249,"body":"zone in this development, like in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1314.249,"endTime":1318.449,"body":"Formula One car racing you see the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1314.249,"endTime":1318.449,"body":"front zone for new car technologies."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1318.989,"endTime":1324.059,"body":"To a certain extent, I'm afraid, at"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1318.989,"endTime":1324.059,"body":"least sport can become some kind of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1324.059,"endTime":1329.219,"body":"Formula One of human biology, a Formula"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1324.059,"endTime":1329.219,"body":"One of human biology enhancement."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1329.909,"endTime":1331.929,"body":"This really challenges"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1329.909,"endTime":1331.929,"body":"sport as we know it."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1332.299,"endTime":1335.699,"body":"And sport is aware of the challenge,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1332.299,"endTime":1335.699,"body":"there is a lot of work going on."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1336.359,"endTime":1338.729,"body":"How can we deal with genetic technologies?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1338.994,"endTime":1342.024,"body":"How can we test for a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1338.994,"endTime":1342.024,"body":"potential use of them?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1342.564,"endTime":1344.364,"body":"What would be the challenges?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1344.664,"endTime":1349.744,"body":"I mean, from local genetic manipulation,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1344.664,"endTime":1349.744,"body":"injection of genetic material in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1349.824,"endTime":1353.814,"body":"part of the body, that's like more"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1349.824,"endTime":1353.814,"body":"conventional doping and the big issues"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1353.814,"endTime":1358.434,"body":"would be the basic manipulation at the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1353.814,"endTime":1358.434,"body":"very early level, at germline level."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1358.704,"endTime":1361.924,"body":"And there are extensive ethical"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1358.704,"endTime":1361.924,"body":"issues and they have to be dealt"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1362.004,"endTime":1365.094,"body":"with in more extensive manners"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1362.004,"endTime":1365.094,"body":"than only within sport ethics."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1365.899,"endTime":1370.639,"body":"Another topical issue is the fall,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1365.899,"endTime":1370.639,"body":"what might be the fall, of the binary"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1370.639,"endTime":1372.439,"body":"distinction between men and women."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1372.679,"endTime":1377.509,"body":"Athletes with so-called differences"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1372.679,"endTime":1377.509,"body":"of sexual development, or having"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1377.619,"endTime":1382.036,"body":"sexual development syndrome, DSD"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1377.619,"endTime":1382.036,"body":"athletes they're called, as they"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1382.036,"endTime":1383.656,"body":"are referred to by World Athletics."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1384.196,"endTime":1386.926,"body":"The issue here is heightened"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1384.196,"endTime":1386.926,"body":"levels of testosterone."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1387.531,"endTime":1391.461,"body":"Having systemic impact on the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1387.531,"endTime":1391.461,"body":"body and on performance potential."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1392.001,"endTime":1397.391,"body":"And at this stage, the current rules"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1392.001,"endTime":1397.391,"body":"covering, in particular, middle distance"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1397.391,"endTime":1402.851,"body":"events, World Athletics from their"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1397.391,"endTime":1402.851,"body":"perspective, these athletes in the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1402.851,"endTime":1405.371,"body":"women's class have an unfair advantage."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1405.756,"endTime":1410.586,"body":"So they are not allowed to compete in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1405.756,"endTime":1410.586,"body":"the so-called protected class of women."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1411.246,"endTime":1415.176,"body":"Others say that this is just another"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1411.246,"endTime":1415.176,"body":"example of a unique genetic talent."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1415.616,"endTime":1418.626,"body":"Sport is all about talent"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1415.616,"endTime":1418.626,"body":"and development of talent."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1418.626,"endTime":1421.386,"body":"So why can they not compete?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1421.966,"endTime":1423.946,"body":"And there is no such control of men."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1423.976,"endTime":1428.836,"body":"Whereas there are athletes in other sports"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1423.976,"endTime":1428.836,"body":"having mutations, genetic mutations,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1428.836,"endTime":1431.146,"body":"that sometimes give them advantages."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1431.866,"endTime":1435.196,"body":"You end up in a really messy terrain"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1431.866,"endTime":1435.196,"body":"when it comes to classification."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1435.556,"endTime":1436.966,"body":"So what will happen in the future?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1436.966,"endTime":1439.246,"body":"Will there be another"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1436.966,"endTime":1439.246,"body":"class, a third class?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1439.726,"endTime":1441.376,"body":"Will we go back somehow?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1441.406,"endTime":1445.981,"body":"Like in paralympics where you're"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1441.406,"endTime":1445.981,"body":"classifying the big events by individual"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1445.981,"endTime":1448.891,"body":"analysis of performance potential."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1449.521,"endTime":1453.691,"body":"So this is really a stage"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1449.521,"endTime":1453.691,"body":"in the development of sport"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1453.721,"endTime":1457.951,"body":"where we do not really clearly"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1453.721,"endTime":1457.951,"body":"foresee what's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1458.761,"endTime":1461.521,"body":"Another issue, this is a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1458.761,"endTime":1461.521,"body":"classification issue too, is a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1461.521,"endTime":1463.681,"body":"project of technological development."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1464.256,"endTime":1469.383,"body":"This is like the Oscar Pistorius case,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1464.256,"endTime":1469.383,"body":"athletes with prosthetic limbs, or"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1469.383,"endTime":1472.413,"body":"advanced technology implanted in the body."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1473.103,"endTime":1476.883,"body":"So once upon a time, what they found"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1473.103,"endTime":1476.883,"body":"has helped for technologies for"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1476.883,"endTime":1482.853,"body":"disabilities, suddenly Pistorius comes"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1476.883,"endTime":1482.853,"body":"along and people see his prosthetic"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1482.853,"endTime":1484.813,"body":"limbs giving him a super-ability."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1484.833,"endTime":1490.053,"body":"So these athletes move from being"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1484.833,"endTime":1490.053,"body":"disabled to becoming super abled."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1490.803,"endTime":1493.083,"body":"And there was a controversy,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1490.803,"endTime":1493.083,"body":"whether he should be able to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1493.083,"endTime":1494.983,"body":"compete with able-bodied athletes."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1495.093,"endTime":1499.383,"body":"I think prosthetics, implants,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1495.093,"endTime":1499.383,"body":"performance-enhancing surgery, what"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1499.383,"endTime":1501.423,"body":"have it, we have them already today."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1501.633,"endTime":1504.453,"body":"This is also only the beginning"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1501.633,"endTime":1504.453,"body":"of a development that will"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1504.453,"endTime":1507.303,"body":"pose radical challenges I"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1504.453,"endTime":1507.303,"body":"think for sport in the future."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1508.743,"endTime":1513.203,"body":"Again, as I talked about drugs, all"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1508.743,"endTime":1513.203,"body":"these remedies, these technologies,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1513.233,"endTime":1516.653,"body":"are good in the sense that they"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1513.233,"endTime":1516.653,"body":"can make life easier for a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1516.653,"endTime":1522.173,"body":"people - higher quality of life,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1516.653,"endTime":1522.173,"body":"take out disease, illness, suffering."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1522.323,"endTime":1525.263,"body":"They can enhance quality of life,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1522.323,"endTime":1525.263,"body":"but they're also challenging."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1525.293,"endTime":1528.983,"body":"Like all other technologies,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1525.293,"endTime":1528.983,"body":"technology in itself is neutral."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1529.583,"endTime":1535.343,"body":"It's up to our good judgment how to use"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1529.583,"endTime":1535.343,"body":"technologies in sound and good ways."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1535.923,"endTime":1538.383,"body":"As you're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1535.923,"endTime":1538.383,"body":"speaking, I'm considering all these"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1538.383,"endTime":1542.133,"body":"different factors could go into how"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1538.383,"endTime":1542.133,"body":"you classify an athlete and you almost"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1542.133,"endTime":1546.273,"body":"classify so much, you end up with every"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1542.133,"endTime":1546.273,"body":"athlete in their own classification."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1546.303,"endTime":1548.063,"body":"So that's something that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1546.303,"endTime":1548.063,"body":"kind of coming to mind there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1548.723,"endTime":1552.983,"body":"I'm also often guilty of being called"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1548.723,"endTime":1552.983,"body":"quite cynical and when you were"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1552.983,"endTime":1557.063,"body":"describing the first part of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1552.983,"endTime":1557.063,"body":"scenario earlier, around the ability"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1557.063,"endTime":1560.722,"body":"and perhaps the inability of governing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1557.063,"endTime":1560.722,"body":"bodies and leagues and organisations"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1560.742,"endTime":1565.122,"body":"to keep up to date with the changes"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1560.742,"endTime":1565.122,"body":"that are happening across all sports."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1565.722,"endTime":1569.502,"body":"It's hard not to get a little bit, not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1565.722,"endTime":1569.502,"body":"depressed, but to get a little bit unsure"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1569.502,"endTime":1573.282,"body":"about whether sport can ever keep up with"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1569.502,"endTime":1573.282,"body":"that, and I think that came back to one"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1573.282,"endTime":1574.782,"body":"of the questions I asked you earlier."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1575.382,"endTime":1576.612,"body":"What is your mood with this?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1576.852,"endTime":1578.412,"body":"Are you concerned by it?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1578.412,"endTime":1581.562,"body":"Are you downtrodden by it, or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1578.412,"endTime":1581.562,"body":"are you hopeful that this could"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1581.562,"endTime":1583.032,"body":"be overcome or at least managed?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1583.392,"endTime":1585.522,"body":"I guess per"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1583.392,"endTime":1585.522,"body":"definition I'm an optimist."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1585.912,"endTime":1590.682,"body":"So I think, the whole drug issue,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1585.912,"endTime":1590.682,"body":"it's an example of the global"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1590.682,"endTime":1595.242,"body":"institution of sport attempting to"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1590.682,"endTime":1595.242,"body":"join forces to face a big challenge."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1595.782,"endTime":1601.167,"body":"Public authorities, governments and"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1595.782,"endTime":1601.167,"body":"sports, with the IOC, established"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1601.167,"endTime":1603.327,"body":"the World Anti-Doping Agency in 99."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1603.327,"endTime":1608.427,"body":"And that's an example of a step ahead, a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1603.327,"endTime":1608.427,"body":"significant step ahead, where they unite"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1608.487,"endTime":1614.487,"body":"forces to face what is considered one"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1608.487,"endTime":1614.487,"body":"of the most serious challenges to sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1614.937,"endTime":1617.397,"body":"So is it successful?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1617.607,"endTime":1621.177,"body":"Some people say it doesn't help,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1617.607,"endTime":1621.177,"body":"the cheaters get away with it."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1621.537,"endTime":1623.547,"body":"Of course, there's a"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1621.537,"endTime":1623.547,"body":"lot of drugs out there."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1624.047,"endTime":1627.942,"body":"You can never catch everybody, you can"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1624.047,"endTime":1627.942,"body":"never catch even close to everyone."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1628.782,"endTime":1631.602,"body":"Probably not even a margin"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1628.782,"endTime":1631.602,"body":"of everyone that cheats."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1631.602,"endTime":1634.482,"body":"On the other hand, what would"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1631.602,"endTime":1634.482,"body":"the alternative scenario be?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1634.992,"endTime":1637.472,"body":"To open up, to legalise?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1637.732,"endTime":1642.232,"body":"In the state of the world today,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1637.732,"endTime":1642.232,"body":"the athlete would be the vulnerable"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1642.262,"endTime":1647.767,"body":"part in such a system, as in elite"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1642.262,"endTime":1647.767,"body":"sport systems so many people depend"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1647.767,"endTime":1649.897,"body":"up on success of the athletes."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1649.897,"endTime":1652.807,"body":"And if the whole drug issue"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1649.897,"endTime":1652.807,"body":"opened up, the athlete would"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1652.807,"endTime":1654.957,"body":"be a really vulnerable person."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1655.597,"endTime":1659.607,"body":"Vulnerable in the sense of being"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1655.597,"endTime":1659.607,"body":"exploited, from very early age"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1659.657,"endTime":1662.777,"body":"being exposed to drugs of various"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1659.657,"endTime":1662.777,"body":"kinds, and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1662.807,"endTime":1667.812,"body":"We've seen historical examples"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1662.807,"endTime":1667.812,"body":"of oh well what would happen if"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1667.932,"endTime":1673.422,"body":"sporting systems do not take the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1667.932,"endTime":1673.422,"body":"drug issue seriously and ban drugs?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1673.662,"endTime":1678.762,"body":"So that is, as I see it, definitely"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1673.662,"endTime":1678.762,"body":"the bigger evil in this situation."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1679.362,"endTime":1683.532,"body":"Sport will try to keep up, but"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1679.362,"endTime":1683.532,"body":"shouldn't live in an ideal bubble."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1683.742,"endTime":1689.297,"body":"The ethical discourse, question of  what"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1683.742,"endTime":1689.297,"body":"gains support and what is a problem, how"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1689.357,"endTime":1691.457,"body":"technology can pose problems for sport."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1692.297,"endTime":1695.887,"body":"This would be ongoing"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1692.297,"endTime":1695.887,"body":"continuously, these discourses in"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1695.887,"endTime":1697.517,"body":"international sports federations."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1698.497,"endTime":1700.807,"body":"This takes, of course,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1698.497,"endTime":1700.807,"body":"competent leadership."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1700.807,"endTime":1703.957,"body":"Sometimes you can really question"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1700.807,"endTime":1703.957,"body":"the competence of this leadership"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1704.767,"endTime":1707.977,"body":"and whether they are aware of"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1704.767,"endTime":1707.977,"body":"what's going on, how to protect"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1707.977,"endTime":1710.527,"body":"integrity of sport, to be proactive."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1711.307,"endTime":1713.857,"body":"But that's another discussion,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1711.307,"endTime":1713.857,"body":"the competence in the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1713.947,"endTime":1715.687,"body":"international sport leadership."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1716.107,"endTime":1719.377,"body":"So, I can't give you a very"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1716.107,"endTime":1719.377,"body":"clear answer to your question."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1719.794,"endTime":1721.214,"body":"Sport keeps on struggling."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1722.299,"endTime":1724.429,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1722.299,"endTime":1724.429,"body":"think the alternative of giving up is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1724.429,"endTime":1725.869,"body":"not one that any of us want to face."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1725.869,"endTime":1729.189,"body":"And so I, even with my cynical"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1725.869,"endTime":1729.189,"body":"nature, I'll agree with you and I'll"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1729.189,"endTime":1731.419,"body":"be optimistic on this this question."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1732.229,"endTime":1735.409,"body":"Half an hour has gone past, and I know I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1732.229,"endTime":1735.409,"body":"need to let you go, and I think there's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1735.409,"endTime":1739.369,"body":"certainly with respect to a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1735.409,"endTime":1739.369,"body":"things we've touched on very briefly today"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1739.369,"endTime":1742.709,"body":"could be well and truly multiple episodes"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1739.369,"endTime":1742.709,"body":"on their own - performance-enhancing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1742.729,"endTime":1745.189,"body":"drugs, equipment, gender, technology."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1745.699,"endTime":1748.639,"body":"But It sounds from your last answer"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1745.699,"endTime":1748.639,"body":"that you think that sport can"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1748.639,"endTime":1751.789,"body":"be fair or it is fair right now,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1748.639,"endTime":1751.789,"body":"and is that a fair assumption?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1752.299,"endTime":1755.554,"body":"Yeah, I would say"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1752.299,"endTime":1755.554,"body":"it's as fair as you can expect."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1755.854,"endTime":1759.994,"body":"And I do not believe in those who look"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1755.854,"endTime":1759.994,"body":"at the world and see a moral decline."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1760.684,"endTime":1761.914,"body":"I see a different world."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1762.244,"endTime":1766.414,"body":"Much more is at stake in elite"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1762.244,"endTime":1766.414,"body":"sport, when competitors meet."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1766.444,"endTime":1771.274,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1766.444,"endTime":1771.274,"body":"quite impressive how fair sport is"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1771.274,"endTime":1776.117,"body":"considering the stakes - what is at"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1771.274,"endTime":1776.117,"body":"stake in terms of profit and prestige."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1776.567,"endTime":1778.487,"body":"We tend to idealise the past."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1778.907,"endTime":1782.987,"body":"In the past, everyone were gentlemen"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1778.907,"endTime":1782.987,"body":"and gentlewomen, there was no"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1782.987,"endTime":1786.197,"body":"trash talking going on, theere"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1782.987,"endTime":1786.197,"body":"was no this, there was no that."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1786.437,"endTime":1787.907,"body":"I think this is completely wrong."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1787.907,"endTime":1792.952,"body":"In the competitive arena, these days"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1787.907,"endTime":1792.952,"body":"you have a hundred, well, in the"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1792.952,"endTime":1797.122,"body":"past, you didn't have cameras at"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1792.952,"endTime":1797.122,"body":"all, recording what was going on."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1797.122,"endTime":1803.542,"body":"Today you have 10 and 20 and 30 cameras"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1797.122,"endTime":1803.542,"body":"covering every little move of an athlete."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1804.122,"endTime":1807.482,"body":"You can even interpret what they"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1804.122,"endTime":1807.482,"body":"say to each other, they cover"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1807.482,"endTime":1809.182,"body":"their mouths these days, right?"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1809.182,"endTime":1811.492,"body":"So, sport is much more transparent."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1811.642,"endTime":1813.752,"body":"Sporting institutions too."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1813.812,"endTime":1818.492,"body":"Although much can be said on the"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1813.812,"endTime":1818.492,"body":"critical side, they are more democratic."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1818.882,"endTime":1820.142,"body":"They are more transparent."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1820.922,"endTime":1823.322,"body":"They are more exposed to public criticism."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1823.862,"endTime":1827.762,"body":"Everyone understands that they"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1823.862,"endTime":1827.762,"body":"act in a political landscape and"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1827.762,"endTime":1830.312,"body":"sometimes take political positions."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1830.672,"endTime":1834.242,"body":"So more or less fair sport,"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1830.672,"endTime":1834.242,"body":"that's a different question."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1834.272,"endTime":1835.742,"body":"Fairness is still an ideal."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1836.372,"endTime":1839.792,"body":"I don't think it's less fair than"},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1836.372,"endTime":1839.792,"body":"it used to be, but it's different."},{"speaker":"So you can look at it this way","startTime":1840.062,"endTime":1842.612,"body":"Different challenges, different responses."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1843.262,"endTime":1845.442,"body":"No, I think"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1843.262,"endTime":1845.442,"body":"you made a really good point there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1845.442,"endTime":1849.162,"body":"And we do tend to idealise the past"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1845.442,"endTime":1849.162,"body":"and I think we all get guilty of that."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1849.452,"endTime":1852.102,"body":"It doesn't matter what age we are,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1849.452,"endTime":1852.102,"body":"we always look back at, particularly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1852.102,"endTime":1854.382,"body":"our childhood I think, and how"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1852.102,"endTime":1854.382,"body":"sport was when we were children."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1855.002,"endTime":1859.232,"body":"Well, sport in the past"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1855.002,"endTime":1859.232,"body":"excluded women, was racist, excluded"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1859.232,"endTime":1861.242,"body":"amateurs, workers couldn't take part."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1861.302,"endTime":1861.782,"body":"Come on."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1862.292,"endTime":1867.062,"body":"We've come a long way from that point,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1862.292,"endTime":1867.062,"body":"at least where merit actually matters."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1867.632,"endTime":1871.052,"body":"There is still racism in sport,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1867.632,"endTime":1871.052,"body":"but to a much lesser degree than"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1871.232,"endTime":1874.142,"body":"say 50 years ago, 20 years ago."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1874.592,"endTime":1878.852,"body":"There are drugs, but what about the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1874.592,"endTime":1878.852,"body":"East German systematic drug use?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1878.882,"endTime":1880.502,"body":"Also in the West at that time?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1880.712,"endTime":1881.672,"body":"No controls."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1881.942,"endTime":1887.282,"body":"One could perhaps argue, in spite of the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1881.942,"endTime":1887.282,"body":"pharmaceutical industry producing much"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1887.282,"endTime":1891.782,"body":"more technologies to be used, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1887.282,"endTime":1891.782,"body":"there is even less use now than in the"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1891.782,"endTime":1894.632,"body":"1950s and 60s and during the Cold War."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1895.232,"endTime":1901.282,"body":"We don't really know because we have"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1895.232,"endTime":1901.282,"body":"no exact image of the 50s and 60s."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1901.752,"endTime":1903.252,"body":"Neither do we have it all today."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1904.032,"endTime":1904.872,"body":"Prevalence?"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1905.082,"endTime":1908.472,"body":"We don't know that much, but"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1905.082,"endTime":1908.472,"body":"again, we should be careful"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1908.472,"endTime":1910.182,"body":"with idealising the past."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1910.242,"endTime":1911.112,"body":"Things are different."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1911.682,"endTime":1914.922,"body":"We still have ethical challenges,"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1911.682,"endTime":1914.922,"body":"but they're different than"},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1915.472,"endTime":1917.407,"body":"20, 30, 40, 50 years ago."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1917.857,"endTime":1919.537,"body":"Well true"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1917.857,"endTime":1919.537,"body":"to form you've finished in an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1919.537,"endTime":1923.227,"body":"optimistic manner, I think, and thank"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1919.537,"endTime":1923.227,"body":"you so much for joining me today."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1923.227,"endTime":1926.367,"body":"It's been enlightening and, again,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1923.227,"endTime":1926.367,"body":"there's so much more to talk about,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1926.377,"endTime":1929.377,"body":"but I think this is a good start and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1926.377,"endTime":1929.377,"body":"thank you once again for joining us."},{"speaker":"Sigmund Loland","startTime":1929.767,"endTime":1930.997,"body":"Thank you for inviting me."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1936.397,"endTime":1938.527,"body":"My second guest"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1936.397,"endTime":1938.527,"body":"on the episode is John Boultbee."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1938.822,"endTime":1942.812,"body":"A former barrister from Sydney, john"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1938.822,"endTime":1942.812,"body":"is the new CEO of the newly established"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1942.812,"endTime":1944.842,"body":"National Sports Tribunal of Australia."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1945.502,"endTime":1948.652,"body":"John is a member of the Order of Australia"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1945.502,"endTime":1948.652,"body":"and a leading sport administrator who"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1948.652,"endTime":1950.572,"body":"has worked across multiple sports."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1950.992,"endTime":1954.172,"body":"Some of these roles include Director of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1950.992,"endTime":1954.172,"body":"the Australian Institute of Sport during"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1954.172,"endTime":1957.892,"body":"the highly successful and memorable"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1954.172,"endTime":1957.892,"body":"Sydney Olympics era, he has been the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1957.892,"endTime":1961.232,"body":"head of national teams at Football"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1957.892,"endTime":1961.232,"body":"Federation Australia, and High Performance"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1961.252,"endTime":1965.332,"body":"Director of Volleyball Australia,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1961.252,"endTime":1965.332,"body":"as well as a long career in rowing."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1965.712,"endTime":1968.832,"body":"John has also held countless board"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1965.712,"endTime":1968.832,"body":"positions, most recently including"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1968.832,"endTime":1973.362,"body":"roles with Crossing The Line Sport"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1968.832,"endTime":1973.362,"body":"and The Athlete Advantage, both of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1973.362,"endTime":1977.742,"body":"which are organisations dedicated to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1973.362,"endTime":1977.742,"body":"athlete wellbeing and a transition"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1977.742,"endTime":1980.142,"body":"of athletes for a life after sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1980.382,"endTime":1982.502,"body":"Certainly that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1980.382,"endTime":1982.502,"body":"more experienced resumes I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1982.632,"endTime":1983.562,"body":"think we'll have on the show."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1983.592,"endTime":1985.452,"body":"John, thank you very much for joining us."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":1985.782,"endTime":1987.552,"body":"It's a pleasure,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":1985.782,"endTime":1987.552,"body":"Sam, looking forward to it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1988.127,"endTime":1988.547,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1988.607,"endTime":1991.587,"body":"Well as we've talked about, you've"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1988.607,"endTime":1991.587,"body":"been involved in sport for a career"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1991.607,"endTime":1994.177,"body":"and a lot of different sports, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1991.607,"endTime":1994.177,"body":"I'd like to really explore that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1994.177,"endTime":1997.807,"body":"today, particularly in some of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1994.177,"endTime":1997.807,"body":"anecdotes and some of the things"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1997.827,"endTime":1999.467,"body":"you've noticed change over your career."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1999.497,"endTime":2002.837,"body":"But coming back to the task at"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":1999.497,"endTime":2002.837,"body":"hand, which is the topic at hand"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2002.837,"endTime":2004.297,"body":"should I say, which is fairness."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2004.667,"endTime":2008.327,"body":"Certainly the general public often think"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2004.667,"endTime":2008.327,"body":"of fairness as relating to on-field,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2008.657,"endTime":2012.227,"body":"but of course it's not just the on-field"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2008.657,"endTime":2012.227,"body":"and governance of competition, it also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2012.472,"endTime":2017.572,"body":"extends to the off-field conduct of staff,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2012.472,"endTime":2017.572,"body":"officials and the broader industry itself."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2017.602,"endTime":2020.752,"body":"Now, your background as an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2017.602,"endTime":2020.752,"body":"administrator in a whole range of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2020.752,"endTime":2024.142,"body":"sports, but also as a lawyer, must"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2020.752,"endTime":2024.142,"body":"give you a really well-rounded"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2024.142,"endTime":2027.952,"body":"perspective on how these challenges"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2024.142,"endTime":2027.952,"body":"can affect different stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2028.702,"endTime":2032.122,"body":"Just how coordinated an effort is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2028.702,"endTime":2032.122,"body":"required in order to address these"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2032.122,"endTime":2037.582,"body":"issues of fairness from diverse areas,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2032.122,"endTime":2037.582,"body":"from sport rules, doping, arbitration,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2037.612,"endTime":2040.732,"body":"all the way through to corruption"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2037.612,"endTime":2040.732,"body":"and exploitation, for that matter."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2041.512,"endTime":2044.722,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2041.512,"endTime":2044.722,"body":"it is very much an area where a"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2044.722,"endTime":2050.035,"body":"coordinated and well-planned and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2044.722,"endTime":2050.035,"body":"systematic effort is required."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2050.425,"endTime":2055.985,"body":"I think most people think of fairness"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2050.425,"endTime":2055.985,"body":"as being what happens between two"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2055.985,"endTime":2059.855,"body":"athletes or two teams, or a number"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2055.985,"endTime":2059.855,"body":"of athletes, number of teams."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2060.595,"endTime":2068.165,"body":"But I tend to see fairness, or sadly"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2060.595,"endTime":2068.165,"body":"unfairness, becoming more of an issue"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2068.525,"endTime":2074.255,"body":"off the field, out of the court, out"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2068.525,"endTime":2074.255,"body":"of the pool, or wherever, where it's a"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2074.255,"endTime":2080.06,"body":"question of whether the sport or those"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2074.255,"endTime":2080.06,"body":"running their sport, or those in official"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2080.06,"endTime":2085.325,"body":"positions, are giving the athletes a"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2080.06,"endTime":2085.325,"body":"fair go, or other people are fair go."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2085.625,"endTime":2093.095,"body":"So sort of institutional unfairness, I"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2085.625,"endTime":2093.095,"body":"think is one of the big issues and those"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2093.095,"endTime":2098.972,"body":"whose role it is to ensure that sport is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2093.095,"endTime":2098.972,"body":"fair need to be held accountable as well."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2099.182,"endTime":2104.401,"body":"So, it's a question of setting up an"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2099.182,"endTime":2104.401,"body":"even playing field, where I think a"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2104.401,"endTime":2109.621,"body":"lot of unfairness happens, and it's"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2104.401,"endTime":2109.621,"body":"a product of the different power"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2109.734,"endTime":2113.991,"body":"of the athlete and the sporting"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2109.734,"endTime":2113.991,"body":"organisation and the sporting official."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2114.356,"endTime":2118.338,"body":"And the sporting officials, and the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2114.356,"endTime":2118.338,"body":"organisations who have the power,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2118.438,"endTime":2123.771,"body":"need to be applying it fairly and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2118.438,"endTime":2123.771,"body":"consistently and without bias, to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2123.771,"endTime":2128.111,"body":"the benefit of the athlete, but,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2123.771,"endTime":2128.111,"body":"more importantly, to all athletes."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2128.711,"endTime":2133.207,"body":"So I think it's an area that warrants"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2128.711,"endTime":2133.207,"body":"examination to ensure that the athletes"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2133.207,"endTime":2135.707,"body":"are able to compete in fair conditions."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2136.079,"endTime":2141.969,"body":"And that happens before they hit the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2136.079,"endTime":2141.969,"body":"field or sadly, often, after they finished"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2141.999,"endTime":2145.125,"body":"the competition and the questions arise."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2145.534,"endTime":2149.649,"body":"So that's an element of fairness"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2145.534,"endTime":2149.649,"body":"or unfairness that I think requires"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2149.649,"endTime":2151.765,"body":"quite a bit of discussion and thought."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2151.915,"endTime":2154.15,"body":"There's a lot"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2151.915,"endTime":2154.15,"body":"you touched on there and particularly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2154.15,"endTime":2157.49,"body":"about athletes when they finish"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2154.15,"endTime":2157.49,"body":"competing and training and I want to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2157.49,"endTime":2160.82,"body":"explore that, but I think we'll come"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2157.49,"endTime":2160.82,"body":"back to that a little bit later on."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2161.21,"endTime":2163.91,"body":"We didn't actually mention the word"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2161.21,"endTime":2163.91,"body":"responsibility, but I feel like"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2163.91,"endTime":2167.0,"body":"that's a word that you talked about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2163.91,"endTime":2167.0,"body":"with administrators, but it's also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2167.0,"endTime":2171.37,"body":"obviously responsibility of athletes"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2167.0,"endTime":2171.37,"body":"to be fair and equitable, on the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2171.37,"endTime":2172.66,"body":"field of play and off the field play."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2172.99,"endTime":2177.61,"body":"Do you feel like people in these roles,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2172.99,"endTime":2177.61,"body":"from athletes all the way through to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2177.65,"endTime":2182.84,"body":"administrators, have adequate training"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2177.65,"endTime":2182.84,"body":"and expertise to adjudicate on fairness?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2182.84,"endTime":2187.04,"body":"Or is that something that you see"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2182.84,"endTime":2187.04,"body":"as a role for the National Sports"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2187.04,"endTime":2190.61,"body":"Tribunal, which is obviously something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2187.04,"endTime":2190.61,"body":"you've only recently become part of?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2191.21,"endTime":2192.68,"body":"There's probably a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2191.21,"endTime":2192.68,"body":"two-part question there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2192.68,"endTime":2195.77,"body":"Is it part of your role or is it"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2192.68,"endTime":2195.77,"body":"part of their role as well, to be"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2195.86,"endTime":2199.01,"body":"educated and have the necessary"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2195.86,"endTime":2199.01,"body":"skills to deal with those situations?"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2199.46,"endTime":2200.17,"body":"It's both."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2201.1,"endTime":2206.23,"body":"The organisations and the people who are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2201.1,"endTime":2206.23,"body":"running the organisations need to provide"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2206.23,"endTime":2211.93,"body":"the education, and the wherewithal,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2206.23,"endTime":2211.93,"body":"for athletes to be responsible and to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2212.05,"endTime":2214.06,"body":"conduct themselves in fair conditions."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2214.57,"endTime":2219.16,"body":"I'm a bit of an optimist and I tend"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2214.57,"endTime":2219.16,"body":"to think that most athletes do that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2219.515,"endTime":2224.795,"body":"- where it has been set up in a way that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2219.515,"endTime":2224.795,"body":"they can compete fairly and deal with"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2224.795,"endTime":2226.998,"body":"their opponents fairly, on the field."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2227.268,"endTime":2232.068,"body":"So part of it is education, part of it"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2227.268,"endTime":2232.068,"body":"is setting up the rules of the sport."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2232.458,"endTime":2237.108,"body":"That again, to act fairly between"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2232.458,"endTime":2237.108,"body":"the athletes and enable the athletes"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2237.618,"endTime":2243.728,"body":"to concentrate on their physical"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2237.618,"endTime":2243.728,"body":"competition and not have to worry"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2243.728,"endTime":2247.978,"body":"about whether they're sailing close"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2243.728,"endTime":2247.978,"body":"to the wind as far as the rules are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2247.978,"endTime":2250.981,"body":"concerned, or respecting their opponents."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2251.401,"endTime":2255.691,"body":"It should be set up in a way"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2251.401,"endTime":2255.691,"body":"that that becomes natural."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2256.231,"endTime":2261.841,"body":"The other side of it is, again, in"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2256.231,"endTime":2261.841,"body":"the Sports Tribunal, unfortunately we"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2261.841,"endTime":2267.578,"body":"end up looking at situations that are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2261.841,"endTime":2267.578,"body":"the result of unfairness happening"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2268.028,"endTime":2272.746,"body":"or an athlete being unfairly dealt"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2268.028,"endTime":2272.746,"body":"with by those who are in control."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2272.746,"endTime":2275.416,"body":"So there's a responsibility by both."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2275.831,"endTime":2282.271,"body":"And I think the athlete is more likely"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2275.831,"endTime":2282.271,"body":"to have concern about the fairness"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2282.271,"endTime":2288.751,"body":"that's meted out to him or her by the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2282.271,"endTime":2288.751,"body":"authorities, than by the opponents."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2289.081,"endTime":2293.041,"body":"And it's a major part of unfairness"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2289.081,"endTime":2293.041,"body":"that I think is a concern for sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2293.871,"endTime":2296.391,"body":"And again, you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2293.871,"endTime":2296.391,"body":"might comment on this a moment, given"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2296.391,"endTime":2299.536,"body":"you have been involved in so many"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2296.391,"endTime":2299.536,"body":"different sports, whether there's a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2299.536,"endTime":2303.186,"body":"cultural element or at least a traditional"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2299.536,"endTime":2303.186,"body":"element to some sports accepting or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2303.196,"endTime":2306.646,"body":"having more inherent unfairness, or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2303.196,"endTime":2306.646,"body":"fairness for that matter, built into"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2306.646,"endTime":2308.866,"body":"their structure and also their culture."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2309.406,"endTime":2312.156,"body":"And you might comment on that in a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2309.406,"endTime":2312.156,"body":"moment, but before we go into it much"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2312.156,"endTime":2314.536,"body":"further, I just want to talk a little"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2312.156,"endTime":2314.536,"body":"bit about the National Sports Tribunal"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2314.636,"endTime":2318.116,"body":"and why that was such an important"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2314.636,"endTime":2318.116,"body":"initiative in ensuring fairness for sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2318.116,"endTime":2320.916,"body":"I mean, we've spoken a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2318.116,"endTime":2320.916,"body":"the responsibility of the athlete already,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2320.936,"endTime":2323.366,"body":"but also of organisations and sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2323.906,"endTime":2326.696,"body":"Just before we zoom in on some of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2323.906,"endTime":2326.696,"body":"these smaller issues, not smaller"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2326.696,"endTime":2329.756,"body":"issues, but narrower issues, do you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2326.696,"endTime":2329.756,"body":"want to talk a little bit about why the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2329.756,"endTime":2331.676,"body":"Tribunal was so important to be set up?"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2332.126,"endTime":2337.496,"body":"The direct reason that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2332.126,"endTime":2337.496,"body":"the Tribunal was set up, relates to the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2337.586,"endTime":2343.396,"body":"issues that happened back some years ago,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2337.586,"endTime":2343.396,"body":"in relation to the doping scandals with"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2343.686,"endTime":2350.026,"body":"Essondon Football Club and Cronulla Rugby"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2343.686,"endTime":2350.026,"body":"League Club, where it was apparent that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2350.026,"endTime":2356.189,"body":"there wasn't independent, transparent,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2350.026,"endTime":2356.189,"body":"consistent dealing with significant"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2356.189,"endTime":2361.352,"body":"integrity matters, that ultimately"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2356.189,"endTime":2361.352,"body":"affected the athletes and ultimately"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2361.682,"endTime":2364.052,"body":"the athletes had to pay the price for."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2364.587,"endTime":2365.877,"body":"And this I think is the issue."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2365.877,"endTime":2371.064,"body":"That those in charge, and bodies"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2365.877,"endTime":2371.064,"body":"in charge, have the responsibility"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2371.064,"endTime":2376.014,"body":"to remember that their role"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2371.064,"endTime":2376.014,"body":"is to provide a safe and fair"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2376.014,"endTime":2377.304,"body":"environment for the athletes."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2378.054,"endTime":2382.134,"body":"And part of that safe and fair environment"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2378.054,"endTime":2382.134,"body":"is that when something goes wrong, the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2382.134,"endTime":2388.224,"body":"athletes will be dealt with fairly,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2382.134,"endTime":2388.224,"body":"equally, consistently and independently"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2388.524,"endTime":2394.208,"body":"- when a sanction is applied, or a dispute"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2388.524,"endTime":2394.208,"body":"arises - and that's very much why"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2394.208,"endTime":2396.338,"body":"the National Sports Tribunal exists."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2396.841,"endTime":2401.317,"body":"Interestingly, our jurisdiction, perhaps"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2396.841,"endTime":2401.317,"body":"the major part of our jurisdiction,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2401.317,"endTime":2405.607,"body":"is where there's a dispute between"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2401.317,"endTime":2405.607,"body":"the athlete and the sporting body."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2406.267,"endTime":2412.407,"body":"There's also a jurisdiction where there's"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2406.267,"endTime":2412.407,"body":"a dispute between two persons, generally"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2412.407,"endTime":2417.784,"body":"two athletes, but that's less likely to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2412.407,"endTime":2417.784,"body":"come to a tribunal hearing than where the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2417.784,"endTime":2423.631,"body":"athlete feels he or she has been hard done"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2417.784,"endTime":2423.631,"body":"by, by the sporting body or the sporting"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2423.631,"endTime":2431.018,"body":"body is taking action against an athlete"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2423.631,"endTime":2431.018,"body":"for breach of the sporting body's rules."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2431.018,"endTime":2436.268,"body":"And the point I am at pains to make is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2431.018,"endTime":2436.268,"body":"that the sporting body has to remember"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2436.618,"endTime":2441.908,"body":"that sport is primarily, as an elementary"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2436.618,"endTime":2441.908,"body":"thing, is about the athletes who are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2442.148,"endTime":2447.848,"body":"playing on the field or wherever their"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2442.148,"endTime":2447.848,"body":"sport is taking part and the interests"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2447.908,"endTime":2454.301,"body":"of the sporting body, or of the sport, or"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2447.908,"endTime":2454.301,"body":"of the board, or of the management, need"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2454.301,"endTime":2457.241,"body":"to be secondary to those of the athletes."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2457.931,"endTime":2462.741,"body":"And the unfairness arises in an"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2457.931,"endTime":2462.741,"body":"institutional and a government"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2462.741,"endTime":2466.994,"body":"sense, because the power is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2462.741,"endTime":2466.994,"body":"all with the sporting body."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2467.594,"endTime":2474.174,"body":"And the people wielding that power"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2467.594,"endTime":2474.174,"body":"sometimes are more influenced by"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2474.341,"endTime":2479.506,"body":"'the good of the sport', as they"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2474.341,"endTime":2479.506,"body":"call it, or the reputation, or the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2479.506,"endTime":2485.199,"body":"finances, the money that's coming"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2479.506,"endTime":2485.199,"body":"into the sport, than the situation"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2485.199,"endTime":2487.209,"body":"of the athlete himself or herself."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2487.599,"endTime":2492.369,"body":"It's a generalisation, but I think"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2487.599,"endTime":2492.369,"body":"a lot of, if we're talking about"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2492.369,"endTime":2496.659,"body":"fairness, to me that's where a lot"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2492.369,"endTime":2496.659,"body":"of unfairness needs to be dealt with."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2496.989,"endTime":2502.276,"body":"And the unfairness might be where the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2496.989,"endTime":2502.276,"body":"sporting body needs to make rules,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2502.651,"endTime":2506.461,"body":"which provide for fair and equal"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2502.651,"endTime":2506.461,"body":"competition, but haven't done so"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2506.461,"endTime":2509.011,"body":"effectively for one reason or another."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2509.221,"endTime":2513.241,"body":"And so the athletes are not"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2509.221,"endTime":2513.241,"body":"playing on a level playing field."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2513.631,"endTime":2518.911,"body":"Or it may be that the way an athlete"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2513.631,"endTime":2518.911,"body":"is dealt with due to something that's"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2518.911,"endTime":2523.521,"body":"happened, on the field or off the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2518.911,"endTime":2523.521,"body":"field, isn't done in a way that is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2523.701,"endTime":2528.981,"body":"consistently remembering that the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2523.701,"endTime":2528.981,"body":"athlete is the reason that sport exists."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2529.471,"endTime":2531.754,"body":"You touched a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2529.471,"endTime":2531.754,"body":"little bit throughout that response there"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2531.754,"endTime":2535.994,"body":"about the, again, the responsibilities"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2531.754,"endTime":2535.994,"body":"and the issue that the athlete might"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2535.994,"endTime":2540.884,"body":"have more with structural unfairness"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2535.994,"endTime":2540.884,"body":"or relating to the inherent nature of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2540.884,"endTime":2544.377,"body":"the sport, rather than something that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2540.884,"endTime":2544.377,"body":"their opponent may do to them, which is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2544.677,"endTime":2546.867,"body":"bordering on either unfair or cheating."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2547.197,"endTime":2549.897,"body":"And I wonder whether it's something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2547.197,"endTime":2549.897,"body":"to do with the scalability of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2549.897,"endTime":2550.977,"body":"that, is part of the reason."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2550.977,"endTime":2554.907,"body":"For example, an organisation can"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2550.977,"endTime":2554.907,"body":"make a single decision which can"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2554.907,"endTime":2558.717,"body":"affect the entire participation"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2554.907,"endTime":2558.717,"body":"population of their sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2558.717,"endTime":2561.357,"body":"Whereas an athlete, theoretically,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2558.717,"endTime":2561.357,"body":"can only ever influence another"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2561.357,"endTime":2563.457,"body":"athlete that are competing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2561.357,"endTime":2563.457,"body":"with them on a field of play."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2563.937,"endTime":2565.887,"body":"And I think that may"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2563.937,"endTime":2565.887,"body":"also explain part of it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2566.427,"endTime":2569.255,"body":"But just picking up on that thread"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2566.427,"endTime":2569.255,"body":"though, obviously, if you pick"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2569.255,"endTime":2573.065,"body":"up different sports, they all"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2569.255,"endTime":2573.065,"body":"have elements of unfairness, by"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2573.065,"endTime":2574.475,"body":"definition, inherent in them."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2574.535,"endTime":2577.495,"body":"You think about some of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2574.535,"endTime":2577.495,"body":"large professional codes, I won't"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2577.495,"endTime":2581.575,"body":"pick out any here in isolation,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2577.495,"endTime":2581.575,"body":"that don't have salary caps."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2582.025,"endTime":2585.805,"body":"Whereby one team is well-resourced"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2582.025,"endTime":2585.805,"body":"at a much, much larger"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2585.805,"endTime":2587.155,"body":"level than their opponents."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2587.635,"endTime":2590.785,"body":"So that's an element to me that seems"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2587.635,"endTime":2590.785,"body":"quite unfair in certain competitions."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2590.785,"endTime":2593.195,"body":"And that's obviously why"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2590.785,"endTime":2593.195,"body":"some organisations in some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2593.195,"endTime":2594.485,"body":"competitions have salary caps."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2595.025,"endTime":2599.075,"body":"But I'm interested in exploring some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2595.025,"endTime":2599.075,"body":"of the other forms of fairness, which"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2599.075,"endTime":2602.585,"body":"maybe aren't so apparent to us unless"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2599.075,"endTime":2602.585,"body":"we sit down and think about them."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2602.885,"endTime":2605.585,"body":"That athletes maybe accept"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2602.885,"endTime":2605.585,"body":"without even realising."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2605.975,"endTime":2609.835,"body":"And one that comes to mind is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2605.975,"endTime":2609.835,"body":"certainly in the doping space."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2609.885,"endTime":2613.245,"body":"In the criminal law area, for example,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2609.885,"endTime":2613.245,"body":"as you would well know, that the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2613.245,"endTime":2615.675,"body":"burden of proof is on the prosecution."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2615.675,"endTime":2617.635,"body":"Now, in doping, it"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2615.675,"endTime":2617.635,"body":"seems to be the reverse."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2617.635,"endTime":2620.305,"body":"And again, I'm probably asking you this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2617.635,"endTime":2620.305,"body":"because you know more about it than I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2620.305,"endTime":2624.095,"body":"do, but the burden of proof is on the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2620.305,"endTime":2624.095,"body":"athlete to prove themselves innocent."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2624.125,"endTime":2625.775,"body":"So it's kind of reversed in sport is."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2626.325,"endTime":2629.365,"body":"Is that something that you're comfortable"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2626.325,"endTime":2629.365,"body":"with, that you think is the right model?"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2629.395,"endTime":2633.255,"body":"So it's a model of"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2629.395,"endTime":2633.255,"body":"convenience, and convenience for the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2633.285,"endTime":2638.522,"body":"sporting organisations and convenience"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2633.285,"endTime":2638.522,"body":"for those who have to police doping,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2638.882,"endTime":2643.862,"body":"more than a provision that is to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2638.882,"endTime":2643.862,"body":"look after the athletes themselves."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2643.922,"endTime":2649.887,"body":"Now, the argument against that would be,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2643.922,"endTime":2649.887,"body":"there's this strong incursion into the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2649.887,"endTime":2655.407,"body":"normal presumption of innocence against"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2649.887,"endTime":2655.407,"body":"an athlete who's found with a substance in"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2655.407,"endTime":2658.437,"body":"their body, to protect the other athletes."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2658.912,"endTime":2666.285,"body":"And it's justifiable to take measures to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2658.912,"endTime":2666.285,"body":"ensure that you are able to effectively"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2666.285,"endTime":2671.085,"body":"deal with the athletes who have been"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2666.285,"endTime":2671.085,"body":"found to have a substance in their"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2671.085,"endTime":2673.635,"body":"body or to be doping in another way."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2674.505,"endTime":2678.895,"body":"But when you're dealing with an"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2674.505,"endTime":2678.895,"body":"individual athlete, that athlete's"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2678.915,"endTime":2684.464,"body":"rights need to be protected and the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2678.915,"endTime":2684.464,"body":"bodies who are in control need to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2684.464,"endTime":2688.904,"body":"bend over backwards to protect that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2684.464,"endTime":2688.904,"body":"athlete, as the criminal law does."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2689.624,"endTime":2693.787,"body":"And there's a saying in criminal"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2689.624,"endTime":2693.787,"body":"law that it's better for 10"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2693.817,"endTime":2698.894,"body":"guilty men to go free than for"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2693.817,"endTime":2698.894,"body":"one innocent man to be imprisoned."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2699.181,"endTime":2701.011,"body":"That's an extreme view."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2701.138,"endTime":2706.64,"body":"And it's also an extreme view to say"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2701.138,"endTime":2706.64,"body":"that there should be more recognition"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2706.64,"endTime":2713.03,"body":"of the athletes' rights to argue their"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2706.64,"endTime":2713.03,"body":"case than perhaps is there at the moment."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2713.66,"endTime":2720.62,"body":"Now, I'm not suggesting that the World"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2713.66,"endTime":2720.62,"body":"Anti-Doping, that WADA, and the national"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2720.62,"endTime":2725.81,"body":"anti-doping agencies, aren't doing as"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2720.62,"endTime":2725.81,"body":"much as they can to get the balance right."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2726.14,"endTime":2729.71,"body":"But, the work needs to be"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2726.14,"endTime":2729.71,"body":"done in education of athletes."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2730.15,"endTime":2732.37,"body":"And it needs to be"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2730.15,"endTime":2732.37,"body":"consistent and thorough."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2732.767,"endTime":2738.763,"body":"The work needs to be done in education"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2732.767,"endTime":2738.763,"body":"and control of those in charge of"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2738.763,"endTime":2743.923,"body":"athletes to ensure that they are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2738.763,"endTime":2743.923,"body":"acting with integrity, but an athlete"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2743.953,"endTime":2750.196,"body":"needs to have the reasonable rights"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2743.953,"endTime":2750.196,"body":"to defend themselves in doping cases."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2750.586,"endTime":2754.469,"body":"And there's great incursions"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2750.586,"endTime":2754.469,"body":"into those rights at the moment."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2754.559,"endTime":2758.961,"body":"For example, if a substance is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2754.559,"endTime":2758.961,"body":"found in an athlete's body, the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2758.961,"endTime":2764.961,"body":"athlete has to establish that it was"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2758.961,"endTime":2764.961,"body":"unintentional by proving how it got"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2764.961,"endTime":2770.151,"body":"into their body and proving that it"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2764.961,"endTime":2770.151,"body":"wasn't consumed for the purpose of"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2770.451,"endTime":2772.281,"body":"performance enhancement or cheating."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2772.911,"endTime":2778.288,"body":"Now that's difficult to do in some"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2772.911,"endTime":2778.288,"body":"circumstances, and it won't always"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2778.288,"endTime":2782.758,"body":"be possible for the athlete to prove"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2778.288,"endTime":2782.758,"body":"that, but at the moment it is perhaps"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2782.758,"endTime":2784.738,"body":"weighted a bit too far the other way."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2785.308,"endTime":2790.123,"body":"It's a real difficult question because"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2785.308,"endTime":2790.123,"body":"an athlete who's going to cheat is going"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2790.123,"endTime":2796.273,"body":"to be someone who's going to be easily"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2790.123,"endTime":2796.273,"body":"happy to construct a false story about how"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2796.273,"endTime":2798.973,"body":"the substance came into his or her body."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2799.573,"endTime":2804.163,"body":"Whereas an athlete who's made a mistake"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2799.573,"endTime":2804.163,"body":"is actually going to be less prepared"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2804.3,"endTime":2809.827,"body":"to argue against the presumption"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2804.3,"endTime":2809.827,"body":"of intentional use of the drugs."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2810.397,"endTime":2815.857,"body":"So, some of it's there to protect the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2810.397,"endTime":2815.857,"body":"innocent athletes, the clean athletes,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2816.347,"endTime":2821.13,"body":"against the athlete who is cheating,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2816.347,"endTime":2821.13,"body":"but we have to be careful that it's not"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2821.13,"endTime":2828.367,"body":"there in order to be more convenient and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2821.13,"endTime":2828.367,"body":"make the role of the police in doping,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2828.497,"endTime":2834.257,"body":"namely, the anti-doping agencies and the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2828.497,"endTime":2834.257,"body":"organisations, make their job easier."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2834.617,"endTime":2839.387,"body":"And they're the ones making the rules,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2834.617,"endTime":2839.387,"body":"and it's no surprise that the rules are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2839.387,"endTime":2842.227,"body":"often made to favor their convenience."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2843.252,"endTime":2845.262,"body":"Thanks, John,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2843.252,"endTime":2845.262,"body":"that's incredible insight and it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2845.262,"endTime":2848.982,"body":"certainly quite an area that I don't"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2845.262,"endTime":2848.982,"body":"think about a lot and it certainly got"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2848.982,"endTime":2853.452,"body":"me thinking as you're speaking, about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2848.982,"endTime":2853.452,"body":"the attraction, or lack of attraction,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2853.452,"endTime":2856.122,"body":"that some might have for being an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2853.452,"endTime":2856.122,"body":"athlete, particularly in sports where"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2856.632,"endTime":2860.322,"body":"you don't have a very long career, you're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2856.632,"endTime":2860.322,"body":"not particularly well remunerated, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2860.322,"endTime":2862.632,"body":"you're facing some of these conditions."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2862.632,"endTime":2866.102,"body":"And we've only just touched on one"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2862.632,"endTime":2866.102,"body":"now that are quite difficult and quite"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2866.102,"endTime":2870.662,"body":"stressful and probably quite open to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2866.102,"endTime":2870.662,"body":"manipulation by nefarious types as well."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2870.812,"endTime":2872.552,"body":"I'm not sure you've seen"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2870.812,"endTime":2872.552,"body":"any examples of that."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2872.965,"endTime":2876.655,"body":"Just while we're on that topic,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2872.965,"endTime":2876.655,"body":"I'm really keen to explore your"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2876.805,"endTime":2878.485,"body":"experience across different sports."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2878.485,"endTime":2881.815,"body":"And I'm sure you've seen a lot in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2878.485,"endTime":2881.815,"body":"your time, but are there are some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2881.815,"endTime":2885.155,"body":"other less commonly known, or some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2881.815,"endTime":2885.155,"body":"other great anecdotes that you've got"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2885.155,"endTime":2887.525,"body":"throughout your career, that relate"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2885.155,"endTime":2887.525,"body":"to what we're talking about today?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2887.588,"endTime":2890.348,"body":"Of either great fairness or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2887.588,"endTime":2890.348,"body":"unfairness that you've seen in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2890.558,"endTime":2893.738,"body":"either your time in the legal area"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":2890.558,"endTime":2893.738,"body":"or in administration of sport?"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2894.058,"endTime":2898.168,"body":"Yeah, there are"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2894.058,"endTime":2898.168,"body":"some, but again, they relate to the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2898.168,"endTime":2903.418,"body":"balance of power between the athletes"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2898.168,"endTime":2903.418,"body":"and the organisations in control."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2903.578,"endTime":2909.908,"body":"That can lead to unfairness between"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2903.578,"endTime":2909.908,"body":"athletes because those in control aren't"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2910.208,"endTime":2915.518,"body":"effectively providing rules, which protect"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2910.208,"endTime":2915.518,"body":"the athlete from an unfair situation."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2915.518,"endTime":2920.908,"body":"An example that goes back a while, in"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2915.518,"endTime":2920.908,"body":"the case of rowing, it goes way back"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2920.908,"endTime":2929.611,"body":"to 1983, 1984, when somebody developed"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2920.908,"endTime":2929.611,"body":"a rowing boat where instead of the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2929.611,"endTime":2934.621,"body":"seat the rower sits on moving, they"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2929.611,"endTime":2934.621,"body":"had the rigors on the side of the boat"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2934.621,"endTime":2937.921,"body":"moving and the seat staying stable."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2938.101,"endTime":2941.911,"body":"So that the boat wouldn't rock as much,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2938.101,"endTime":2941.911,"body":"because the body's not moving so much."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2942.601,"endTime":2945.871,"body":"And it was able to produce extra speed."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2946.471,"endTime":2949.381,"body":"Very easy to see the extra"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2946.471,"endTime":2949.381,"body":"speed that came out of it."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2950.341,"endTime":2953.281,"body":"But of course, it was a"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2950.341,"endTime":2953.281,"body":"huge change in equipment."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2953.661,"endTime":2959.221,"body":"And a change, which, obviously, favored"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2953.661,"endTime":2959.221,"body":"the more wealthy clubs or in the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2959.221,"endTime":2964.528,"body":"international scene, the more wealthy"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2959.221,"endTime":2964.528,"body":"nations to buy these new boats, which"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2964.528,"endTime":2968.885,"body":"were quite a lot more expensive than the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2964.528,"endTime":2968.885,"body":"boats that had been available otherwise."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2969.425,"endTime":2973.222,"body":"And putting athletes in"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2969.425,"endTime":2973.222,"body":"unequal and unfair conditions."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2973.762,"endTime":2977.121,"body":"So what was needed, and thankfully"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2973.762,"endTime":2977.121,"body":"the International Rowing"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2977.121,"endTime":2980.991,"body":"Federation took the appropriate"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2977.121,"endTime":2980.991,"body":"step, that was to control that."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2981.351,"endTime":2986.151,"body":"So that the equipment that was being"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2981.351,"endTime":2986.151,"body":"used was quite equal and it wasn't"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2986.511,"endTime":2992.991,"body":"a matter of the wealthy being given"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2986.511,"endTime":2992.991,"body":"the opportunity to go faster and the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2992.991,"endTime":2997.311,"body":"less wealthy having to row in slower"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2992.991,"endTime":2997.311,"body":"boats and try and beat the wealthy."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2997.401,"endTime":3003.356,"body":"So, the sliding rigor was banned there"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":2997.401,"endTime":3003.356,"body":"and then, and hasn't been seen since."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3003.716,"endTime":3009.919,"body":"And that's where an organisation can"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3003.716,"endTime":3009.919,"body":"take the right step to ensure that,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3009.949,"endTime":3014.269,"body":"not the playing field there, but the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3009.949,"endTime":3014.269,"body":"situation on the water, was equal."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3014.569,"endTime":3017.854,"body":"And some of the athletes"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3014.569,"endTime":3017.854,"body":"were unhappy about that - why"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3017.854,"endTime":3019.504,"body":"can't  we row in a faster boat?"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3019.804,"endTime":3023.344,"body":"And the reason is because it's not"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3019.804,"endTime":3023.344,"body":"something that's available to everyone."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3023.734,"endTime":3027.904,"body":"And I think there's probably other areas"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3023.734,"endTime":3027.904,"body":"where that's happened in other sports"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3027.904,"endTime":3034.607,"body":"as well, that it shows a responsibility"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3027.904,"endTime":3034.607,"body":"on the organisations to look after the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3034.607,"endTime":3039.467,"body":"fairness of the sport, because there"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3034.607,"endTime":3039.467,"body":"are a lot of people being paid a lot"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3039.467,"endTime":3045.237,"body":"of money to take whatever advantage"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3039.467,"endTime":3045.237,"body":"they can to do better go faster,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3045.387,"endTime":3047.62,"body":"be stronger, than another athlete."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3048.08,"endTime":3051.8,"body":"Not because the athlete is better,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3048.08,"endTime":3051.8,"body":"but because there's more finance"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3051.86,"endTime":3053.54,"body":"or funding available to do that."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3053.66,"endTime":3058.67,"body":"And your example about salary"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3053.66,"endTime":3058.67,"body":"caps in major professional"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3058.67,"endTime":3060.77,"body":"sports goes to the same point."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3061.445,"endTime":3063.095,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3061.445,"endTime":3063.095,"body":"keep thinking as you're speaking"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3063.095,"endTime":3064.385,"body":"there about equal access."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3064.415,"endTime":3066.785,"body":"That to me, is what this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3064.415,"endTime":3066.785,"body":"is all about, equal access."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3066.785,"endTime":3070.385,"body":"So you differentiate the example"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3066.785,"endTime":3070.385,"body":"you gave then, say the Dick Fosbury"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3070.385,"endTime":3074.165,"body":"flop, where all he had available"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3070.385,"endTime":3074.165,"body":"was his imagination and body."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3074.165,"endTime":3077.36,"body":"And yes, that's still a technology,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3074.165,"endTime":3077.36,"body":"but again, it's equal access."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3077.36,"endTime":3078.92,"body":"Anyone could do the same."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3078.92,"endTime":3081.97,"body":"And indeed, obviously they went"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3078.92,"endTime":3081.97,"body":"on to replicate that technique."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3082.75,"endTime":3085.33,"body":"Just as we bring the conversation"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3082.75,"endTime":3085.33,"body":"to a close, I know that we could"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3085.33,"endTime":3088.3,"body":"probably speak for hours on this,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3085.33,"endTime":3088.3,"body":"but I just wanted to talk about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3088.39,"endTime":3089.98,"body":"the key challenges for the future."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3090.01,"endTime":3093.31,"body":"As I said in the introduction  there,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3090.01,"endTime":3093.31,"body":"the Tribunal's a new initiative,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3093.31,"endTime":3095.7,"body":"although you've worked in a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3093.31,"endTime":3095.7,"body":"related area for a long time."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3096.27,"endTime":3099.28,"body":"What do you think, over the next"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3096.27,"endTime":3099.28,"body":"couple of years, are going to be the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3099.28,"endTime":3102.51,"body":"big challenges, not only for fairness"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3099.28,"endTime":3102.51,"body":"in sport, but particularly you and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3102.51,"endTime":3104.43,"body":"your role as the CEO of the Tribunal."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3105.13,"endTime":3108.8,"body":"I think one of the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3105.13,"endTime":3108.8,"body":"biggest issues is the right of the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3108.93,"endTime":3115.18,"body":"sporting organisations to control what"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3108.93,"endTime":3115.18,"body":"the athlete does, off the field, or more"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3115.18,"endTime":3117.88,"body":"importantly, in his or her private life."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3118.18,"endTime":3124.115,"body":"It goes to football players who misbehave,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3118.18,"endTime":3124.115,"body":"a number of other things, but again, I'm"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3124.115,"endTime":3129.575,"body":"harping on a bit about the inequality"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3124.115,"endTime":3129.575,"body":"between the athletes' situation and the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3129.575,"endTime":3133.925,"body":"sporting organisations' situation and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3129.575,"endTime":3133.925,"body":"the people who are running the sporting"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3133.925,"endTime":3139.555,"body":"organisations, where they have the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3133.925,"endTime":3139.555,"body":"power to make rules that are going to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3139.555,"endTime":3144.795,"body":"put obligations on the athletes, which"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3139.555,"endTime":3144.795,"body":"we really have to wonder the right"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3144.795,"endTime":3147.675,"body":"things for sporting organisations to do."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3147.885,"endTime":3154.755,"body":"And the misbehavior area is probably the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3147.885,"endTime":3154.755,"body":"main area, in that regard, where the sport"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3154.755,"endTime":3161.145,"body":"will say, we are going to control what you"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3154.755,"endTime":3161.145,"body":"do in your private life to maintain the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3161.145,"endTime":3166.905,"body":"image of the sport, the reputation of the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3161.145,"endTime":3166.905,"body":"sport, and look after the sport itself,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3166.935,"endTime":3168.855,"body":"putting the sport above the athlete."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3169.125,"endTime":3174.17,"body":"Whereas, really, what they're largely"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3169.125,"endTime":3174.17,"body":"talking about is the reputation of"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3174.17,"endTime":3180.2,"body":"those people in charge of the sport"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3174.17,"endTime":3180.2,"body":"and the financial income into the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3180.2,"endTime":3183.177,"body":"sport, which may be affected by that."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3183.357,"endTime":3187.887,"body":"And to me, it's a big issue and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3183.357,"endTime":3187.887,"body":"there's not an easy answer to it."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3188.127,"endTime":3193.517,"body":"If you say to a footballer, we're going"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3188.127,"endTime":3193.517,"body":"to pay you one and a half million dollars"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3193.517,"endTime":3199.067,"body":"a year and for that you have to do this,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3193.517,"endTime":3199.067,"body":"which we want you to do on the field."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3199.157,"endTime":3202.937,"body":"We also want you to do stuff off"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3199.157,"endTime":3202.937,"body":"the field, but there are some"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3202.937,"endTime":3204.587,"body":"things we don't want you to do."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3204.827,"endTime":3208.637,"body":"And one of them might be, you're not"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3204.827,"endTime":3208.637,"body":"allowed to wear a red shirt on Wednesdays."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3208.852,"endTime":3212.842,"body":"And the athlete says I'll sign that,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3208.852,"endTime":3212.842,"body":"one and a half million dollars a year."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3213.022,"endTime":3215.362,"body":"I'll do my best on the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3213.022,"endTime":3215.362,"body":"field and off the field."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3215.662,"endTime":3220.182,"body":"And then turns up in a red shirt on"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3215.662,"endTime":3220.182,"body":"Wednesday, and there's a strong argument"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3220.182,"endTime":3226.567,"body":"to say any employer is entitled to"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3220.182,"endTime":3226.567,"body":"impose that sort of condition, be it"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3226.627,"endTime":3230.287,"body":"reasonable or unreasonable on the athlete,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3226.627,"endTime":3230.287,"body":"because of the money that's being paid."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3230.527,"endTime":3234.397,"body":"But then it trickles down to the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3230.527,"endTime":3234.397,"body":"less wealthy athletes and the less"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3234.457,"endTime":3239.271,"body":"wealthy sports where there is a strong"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3234.457,"endTime":3239.271,"body":"feeling that we have to protect the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3239.331,"endTime":3244.311,"body":"reputation of the sport and make"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3239.331,"endTime":3244.311,"body":"athletes role models in society,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3244.311,"endTime":3246.501,"body":"rather than role models on the field."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3247.251,"endTime":3253.101,"body":"And where the line is drawn in that"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3247.251,"endTime":3253.101,"body":"respect is a really difficult situation."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3253.551,"endTime":3258.861,"body":"And the athlete's position is"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3253.551,"endTime":3258.861,"body":"an unfair position, as against"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3258.861,"endTime":3260.301,"body":"that of the sporting body."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3260.721,"endTime":3266.225,"body":"And that sort of fairness question"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3260.721,"endTime":3266.225,"body":"is one that is not often thought"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3266.225,"endTime":3270.745,"body":"of being a question of fairness and"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3266.225,"endTime":3270.745,"body":"unfairness, but it really is, when you're"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3270.745,"endTime":3276.025,"body":"looking at the power situation of the"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3270.745,"endTime":3276.025,"body":"athlete as against those in control."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3276.785,"endTime":3279.755,"body":"Yeah, I think you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3276.785,"endTime":3279.755,"body":"used an interesting example there of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3279.755,"endTime":3285.215,"body":"red shirt, and I do find as an observer"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3279.755,"endTime":3285.215,"body":"that the more, sometimes arbitrary,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3285.215,"endTime":3288.925,"body":"conditions that are put on athletes by"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3285.215,"endTime":3288.925,"body":"organisations the greater rod they're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3288.925,"endTime":3291.805,"body":"creating for their own back in many"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3288.925,"endTime":3291.805,"body":"respects, because the more you add, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3291.805,"endTime":3294.925,"body":"more you can sometimes look for more"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3291.805,"endTime":3294.925,"body":"things that you might be missing in it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3295.585,"endTime":3297.205,"body":"You can get down a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3295.585,"endTime":3297.205,"body":"rabbit hole very quickly."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3297.595,"endTime":3299.545,"body":"I really appreciate your"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3297.595,"endTime":3299.545,"body":"insights on the show."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3299.545,"endTime":3301.225,"body":"And thank you so much for joining us."},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3301.565,"endTime":3304.065,"body":"It's a pleasure,"},{"speaker":"John Boultbee","startTime":3301.565,"endTime":3304.065,"body":"Sam, and thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3310.955,"endTime":3313.595,"body":"And now some final"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3310.955,"endTime":3313.595,"body":"thoughts from me on today's question."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3314.185,"endTime":3316.93,"body":"Fairness in sport is clearly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3314.185,"endTime":3316.93,"body":"a joint responsibility."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3317.2,"endTime":3319.9,"body":"Not solely for athletes to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3317.2,"endTime":3319.9,"body":"consider, but also governing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3319.9,"endTime":3321.97,"body":"bodies, staff and administrators."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3322.33,"endTime":3325.9,"body":"It goes hand in hand with"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3322.33,"endTime":3325.9,"body":"consistency, a lack of bias and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3325.9,"endTime":3327.58,"body":"provision of equal opportunity."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3327.85,"endTime":3331.27,"body":"Whether it's Lance Armstrong,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3327.85,"endTime":3331.27,"body":"Tonya Harding or Maradona's hand of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3331.27,"endTime":3335.26,"body":"God, it is often the high profile,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3331.27,"endTime":3335.26,"body":"discrete examples of unfairness"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3335.26,"endTime":3336.82,"body":"that live long in the memory."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3337.41,"endTime":3340.8,"body":"But it seems as though a far greater"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3337.41,"endTime":3340.8,"body":"threat to the very fabric of many sports"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3340.8,"endTime":3345.36,"body":"are not cases of single bad actors, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3340.8,"endTime":3345.36,"body":"in the structure of sports themselves."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3346.09,"endTime":3350.46,"body":"Unequal access to equipment, wildly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3346.09,"endTime":3350.46,"body":"differing wage budgets, and subtle"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3350.46,"endTime":3353.85,"body":"yet persistent conditions that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3350.46,"endTime":3353.85,"body":"result in systemic disadvantage."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3354.565,"endTime":3357.265,"body":"These have a much larger"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3354.565,"endTime":3357.265,"body":"potential influence on a whole"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3357.265,"endTime":3360.325,"body":"range of negative outcomes for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3357.265,"endTime":3360.325,"body":"both athletes and stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3360.805,"endTime":3364.165,"body":"So when it comes to those elements"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3360.805,"endTime":3364.165,"body":"of fairness that matter most, sports"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3364.165,"endTime":3367.885,"body":"should perhaps be turning their focus"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3364.165,"endTime":3367.885,"body":"to their own inner workings before"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3367.885,"endTime":3371.515,"body":"adding to the already long list of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3367.885,"endTime":3371.515,"body":"expectations placed on athletes."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3372.115,"endTime":3375.475,"body":"But as both guests mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3372.115,"endTime":3375.475,"body":"there is much cause for optimism."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3375.895,"endTime":3379.015,"body":"The increased levels of attention on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3375.895,"endTime":3379.015,"body":"most sports, due to growing numbers of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3379.015,"endTime":3383.675,"body":"cameras, fans and media, combined with an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3379.015,"endTime":3383.675,"body":"enhanced ability to develop more precise"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3383.675,"endTime":3387.635,"body":"working models of fairness, should also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3383.675,"endTime":3387.635,"body":"mean better monitoring and governance."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3388.33,"endTime":3391.69,"body":"And there are a growing number of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3388.33,"endTime":3391.69,"body":"organisations leading the way in ensuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3391.69,"endTime":3396.01,"body":"that athletes are not simply coerced"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3391.69,"endTime":3396.01,"body":"into upholding fairness, but educated on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3396.01,"endTime":3398.08,"body":"both their rights and responsibilities."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3398.65,"endTime":3402.01,"body":"Above all else, these conditions"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3398.65,"endTime":3402.01,"body":"should be pursued whilst ensuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3402.01,"endTime":3405.76,"body":"that all participants are protected"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3402.01,"endTime":3405.76,"body":"from unreasonable risk of harm."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3406.3,"endTime":3409.96,"body":"Whether we believe that sport can ever"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3406.3,"endTime":3409.96,"body":"be fair or not, I think that is something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3409.96,"endTime":3412.27,"body":"that we can all agree is worth pursuing."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3412.684,"endTime":3416.104,"body":"I'm Sam Robertson and this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3412.684,"endTime":3416.104,"body":"has been One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3416.914,"endTime":3419.674,"body":"We're taking some time off for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3416.914,"endTime":3419.674,"body":"holidays prior to our next episode,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3419.704,"endTime":3422.914,"body":"but we'll be back the following week"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3419.704,"endTime":3422.914,"body":"where we'll be asking: is technology"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson (Host)","startTime":3422.914,"endTime":3425.134,"body":"ruining the athlete-coach relationship?"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3425.844,"endTime":3429.774,"body":"One Track Mind is brought"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3425.844,"endTime":3429.774,"body":"to you by Track and Victoria University."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3430.434,"endTime":3433.704,"body":"Our host is professor Sam"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3430.434,"endTime":3433.704,"body":"Robertson and our producer is"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3433.704,"endTime":3435.354,"body":"Lara Chan-Baker - that's me!"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3436.014,"endTime":3440.124,"body":"If you care about these issues as"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3436.014,"endTime":3440.124,"body":"much as we do, please support us by"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3440.124,"endTime":3444.144,"body":"subscribing, leaving a review on iTunes,"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3440.124,"endTime":3444.144,"body":"and recommending the show to a friend."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3444.724,"endTime":3447.514,"body":"It only takes a minute, but"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3444.724,"endTime":3447.514,"body":"it makes all the difference."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3448.174,"endTime":3451.934,"body":"If you want more where this came"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3448.174,"endTime":3451.934,"body":"from, follow us on Twitter @trackVU,"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3452.324,"endTime":3458.134,"body":"on  Instagram, @track.vu, or just head"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3452.324,"endTime":3458.134,"body":"to trackvu.com - while you're there,"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3458.194,"endTime":3459.574,"body":"why not sign up for our newsletter?"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3459.844,"endTime":3463.444,"body":"It's a regular dose of sport science"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3459.844,"endTime":3463.444,"body":"insights from our leading team of"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3463.444,"endTime":3466.864,"body":"researchers, with links to further"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3463.444,"endTime":3466.864,"body":"reading on each episode topic."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3467.194,"endTime":3469.564,"body":"Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3467.194,"endTime":3469.564,"body":"listening to One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":3469.804,"endTime":3481.114,"body":"We will see you soon."}]}