{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":0.06,"endTime":3.12,"body":"Experts have the ability"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":0.06,"endTime":3.12,"body":"to make the difficult seem simple."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":3.57,"endTime":8.74,"body":"Whether it's Tiger Woods's tee shot on the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":3.57,"endTime":8.74,"body":"16th hole in the 2019 masters, or Lionel"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":8.76,"endTime":13.59,"body":"Messi's famous goal against Getafe in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":8.76,"endTime":13.59,"body":"2007, there's an example in every sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":14.01,"endTime":16.2,"body":"The factors that have to come"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":14.01,"endTime":16.2,"body":"together to make something like"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":16.2,"endTime":18.3,"body":"that possible can be mind-bending."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":19.02,"endTime":22.89,"body":"In ordinary language, we might describe"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":19.02,"endTime":22.89,"body":"it as being complex or complicated,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":23.28,"endTime":25.26,"body":"often using those words interchangeably."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":25.853,"endTime":29.513,"body":"But in science, complex and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":25.853,"endTime":29.513,"body":"complicated are not one and the same."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":30.233,"endTime":33.263,"body":"When we talk about complexity,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":30.233,"endTime":33.263,"body":"we're talking specifically about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":33.263,"endTime":34.823,"body":"what we call a complex system."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":35.333,"endTime":39.143,"body":"We covered this in our very first mini"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":35.333,"endTime":39.143,"body":"episode a couple of weeks ago, so I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":39.143,"endTime":42.443,"body":"recommend listening to that if you're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":39.143,"endTime":42.443,"body":"not familiar, but in the most basic"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":42.443,"endTime":46.493,"body":"terms, a complex system is one that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":42.443,"endTime":46.493,"body":"made up of many moving parts, interacting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":46.493,"endTime":49.733,"body":"with each other and responding to their"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":46.493,"endTime":49.733,"body":"environments in unpredictable ways."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":50.678,"endTime":53.558,"body":"Of course, there's a lot more to it"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":50.678,"endTime":53.558,"body":"than that, but the key thing to note"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":53.588,"endTime":56.528,"body":"is that when you're dealing with a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":53.588,"endTime":56.528,"body":"complex system, there isn't a clear"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":56.528,"endTime":60.608,"body":"and simple relationship between"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":56.528,"endTime":60.608,"body":"what one individual element does and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":60.608,"endTime":62.528,"body":"what the system as a whole will do."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":63.038,"endTime":66.458,"body":"That's why, even though things like"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":63.038,"endTime":66.458,"body":"computers or aeroplanes are quite"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":66.458,"endTime":68.858,"body":"complicated, they're not actually complex."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":69.428,"endTime":71.558,"body":"There's a lot of elements,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":69.428,"endTime":71.558,"body":"but we know how they work."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":72.264,"endTime":75.142,"body":"But look at things like traffic,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":72.264,"endTime":75.142,"body":"the economy, or the weather,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":75.502,"endTime":77.162,"body":"and now you've got complexity."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":77.842,"endTime":81.262,"body":"Systems where we can't just flick"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":77.842,"endTime":81.262,"body":"a switch and get a desired result."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":81.91,"endTime":84.55,"body":"And complexity is undoubtedly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":81.91,"endTime":84.55,"body":"on the rise in sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":85.18,"endTime":88.27,"body":"It's not just the number of people"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":85.18,"endTime":88.27,"body":"involved, it's things like the effects"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":88.27,"endTime":92.53,"body":"of globalisation, more sophisticated"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":88.27,"endTime":92.53,"body":"technology, and the constant quest"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":92.59,"endTime":96.1,"body":"for improvement that are pushing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":92.59,"endTime":96.1,"body":"sport further into this space."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":96.82,"endTime":101.02,"body":"Faster computers and better analytical"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":96.82,"endTime":101.02,"body":"tools have rapidly improved our ability"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":101.05,"endTime":105.4,"body":"to measure all aspects of the sporting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":101.05,"endTime":105.4,"body":"landscape, but the irony here is that the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":105.4,"endTime":109.48,"body":"very tools we develop to help us make more"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":105.4,"endTime":109.48,"body":"sense of our environments are the same"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":109.48,"endTime":112.12,"body":"ones making things appear more complex."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":112.78,"endTime":115.27,"body":"So with that in mind, is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":112.78,"endTime":115.27,"body":"complexity actually something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":115.27,"endTime":116.82,"body":"we want to encourage in sport?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":117.52,"endTime":121.6,"body":"After all as Albert Einstein once said,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":117.52,"endTime":121.6,"body":"\"If you can't explain something simply,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":121.81,"endTime":123.34,"body":"then you don't understand it well enough\"."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":123.991,"endTime":127.441,"body":"On this episode of One Track Mind, we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":123.991,"endTime":127.441,"body":"make a case for complexity's importance"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":127.441,"endTime":131.461,"body":"in sport and discuss some of the tools"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":127.441,"endTime":131.461,"body":"we can use in the field to help measure,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":131.841,"endTime":135.749,"body":"analyse, and most importantly, leverage"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":131.841,"endTime":135.749,"body":"its benefits to improve performance."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":136.424,"endTime":139.764,"body":"And equally importantly, we talk"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":136.424,"endTime":139.764,"body":"about some of the risks organisations"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":139.784,"endTime":141.741,"body":"face by choosing not to embrace it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":142.371,"endTime":144.831,"body":"I'm Sam Robertson, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":142.371,"endTime":144.831,"body":"this is One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":151.661,"endTime":156.281,"body":"Hello and welcome to One Track Mind - a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":151.661,"endTime":156.281,"body":"podcast about the real issues, forces and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":156.281,"endTime":158.721,"body":"innovations shaping the future of sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":159.351,"endTime":163.266,"body":"On today's episode we're asking, \"Why"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":159.351,"endTime":163.266,"body":"should sport embrace complexity?\""},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":164.046,"endTime":166.679,"body":"My guests today, Professor"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":164.046,"endTime":166.679,"body":"Paul Salmon and Dr."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":166.709,"endTime":167.629,"body":"Scott McLean."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":168.379,"endTime":172.259,"body":"Paul is the Director of the Centre for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":168.379,"endTime":172.259,"body":"Human Factors and Sociotechnical Systems"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":172.259,"endTime":174.209,"body":"at the University of the Sunshine Coast."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":174.569,"endTime":178.739,"body":"He has over 20 years' experience of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":174.569,"endTime":178.739,"body":"applied human factors and safety research"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":178.799,"endTime":183.779,"body":"in areas such as transport, defense,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":178.799,"endTime":183.779,"body":"sport and outdoor recreation, healthcare,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":184.049,"endTime":186.329,"body":"workplace safety, and cyber security."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":187.164,"endTime":190.134,"body":"Scott is a Research Fellow also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":187.164,"endTime":190.134,"body":"at the Centre for Human Factors"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":190.134,"endTime":193.704,"body":"and Sociotechnical Systems at the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":190.134,"endTime":193.704,"body":"University of the Sunshine Coast,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":194.094,"endTime":197.064,"body":"and leads the centre's work on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":194.094,"endTime":197.064,"body":"sport and outdoor recreation."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":197.694,"endTime":201.444,"body":"His research spans sports science,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":197.694,"endTime":201.444,"body":"systems thinking and safety science,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":201.714,"endTime":204.324,"body":"and he has worked as a football"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":201.714,"endTime":204.324,"body":"performance analyst in the A-League"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":204.564,"endTime":206.304,"body":"and in international football."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":206.784,"endTime":208.494,"body":"Paul and Scott, thanks for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":206.784,"endTime":208.494,"body":"joining me on the show!"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":209.114,"endTime":210.034,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":209.114,"endTime":210.034,"body":"thanks for having us, Sam."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":210.583,"endTime":211.003,"body":"Yeah, thanks."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":211.023,"endTime":211.593,"body":"Great to be here."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":212.413,"endTime":214.333,"body":"Well, this is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":212.413,"endTime":214.333,"body":"something a little different for us"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":214.333,"endTime":217.273,"body":"here because it actually marks the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":214.333,"endTime":217.273,"body":"first time on the show that we've"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":217.273,"endTime":219.043,"body":"had two guests on at the same time."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":219.073,"endTime":221.533,"body":"So I'm looking forward"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":219.073,"endTime":221.533,"body":"to seeing how this goes."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":221.893,"endTime":224.473,"body":"And before we get into some of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":221.893,"endTime":224.473,"body":"detail around this topic, I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":224.473,"endTime":227.923,"body":"start with a bit of a general question,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":224.473,"endTime":227.923,"body":"and an easier question perhaps,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":228.043,"endTime":232.938,"body":"for you both, and that's why are we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":228.043,"endTime":232.938,"body":"seeing so much increased interest"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":233.088,"endTime":235.248,"body":"in complexity in sporting circles?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":235.248,"endTime":238.828,"body":"And perhaps not just complexity,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":235.248,"endTime":238.828,"body":"but systems thinking, and even we're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":238.848,"endTime":242.538,"body":"starting to see dynamical systems work"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":238.848,"endTime":242.538,"body":"its way into the popular vernacular."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":243.076,"endTime":244.756,"body":"I think for"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":243.076,"endTime":244.756,"body":"me, there's two main reasons."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":244.756,"endTime":248.146,"body":"So I think firstly, that given that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":244.756,"endTime":248.146,"body":"sports science is a relatively young"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":248.146,"endTime":251.661,"body":"discipline, I sort of think it was"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":248.146,"endTime":251.661,"body":"inevitable that theories and methods from"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":251.661,"endTime":253.311,"body":"other disciplines would transfer across."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":253.881,"endTime":257.151,"body":"I mean, we saw in the early days of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":253.881,"endTime":257.151,"body":"sports analytics where economists"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":257.151,"endTime":259.671,"body":"and mathematicians sort of began to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":257.151,"endTime":259.671,"body":"apply their theories and methods,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":259.671,"endTime":260.721,"body":"which worked well in sport."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":261.291,"endTime":263.391,"body":"I think it's just the same thing"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":261.291,"endTime":263.391,"body":"is happening with complexity"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":263.391,"endTime":264.291,"body":"and theories and methods."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":264.291,"endTime":268.654,"body":"And I hope our work has had a small"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":264.291,"endTime":268.654,"body":"helping hand here, but yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":268.654,"endTime":271.434,"body":"it's just an inevitable part of the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":268.654,"endTime":271.434,"body":"evolution of a young discipline."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":271.804,"endTime":274.174,"body":"Secondly, I think that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":271.804,"endTime":274.174,"body":"some of these traditional sports"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":274.174,"endTime":277.444,"body":"science methods and theories, they're"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":274.174,"endTime":277.444,"body":"often viewed as a bit reductionist"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":277.444,"endTime":279.244,"body":"or quite linear in their thinking."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":279.244,"endTime":282.904,"body":"So this, while it can give you some"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":279.244,"endTime":282.904,"body":"information, it can only give you"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":282.904,"endTime":284.194,"body":"information to a certain level."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":284.194,"endTime":288.034,"body":"So measurements of isolated variables"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":284.194,"endTime":288.034,"body":"that don't take into account broader"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":288.034,"endTime":292.954,"body":"system components, and the non-linearity"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":288.034,"endTime":292.954,"body":"of complex systems can't be explained"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":292.954,"endTime":295.864,"body":"by this linear type thinking that we've"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":292.954,"endTime":295.864,"body":"traditionally had in sports science."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":296.356,"endTime":300.226,"body":"I mean, using methods to understand"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":296.356,"endTime":300.226,"body":"complexity provides much more detail"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":300.226,"endTime":301.666,"body":"around the interrelated components."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":301.726,"endTime":304.426,"body":"That's a better understanding of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":301.726,"endTime":304.426,"body":"how we can actually improve sport."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":304.946,"endTime":307.726,"body":"So they're my two main reasons why I"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":304.946,"endTime":307.726,"body":"think we're seeing more and more of it."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":308.296,"endTime":309.996,"body":"Yeah, I agree"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":308.296,"endTime":309.996,"body":"with the points Scott made."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":309.996,"endTime":313.746,"body":"I think there are other things at play"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":309.996,"endTime":313.746,"body":"here as well, and certainly if I reflect"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":313.746,"endTime":316.896,"body":"on the other areas that we work in,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":313.746,"endTime":316.896,"body":"things like safety science, I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":316.896,"endTime":321.831,"body":"there's a perception that the world or"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":316.896,"endTime":321.831,"body":"systems are becoming far more complex."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":321.831,"endTime":326.461,"body":"And if you look at sports, for example,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":321.831,"endTime":326.461,"body":"we've got increasing levels of technology"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":326.461,"endTime":331.251,"body":"insertions and things like VAR, DRS,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":326.461,"endTime":331.251,"body":"Hawkeye, we've got big data and we've"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":331.251,"endTime":334.651,"body":"got new technological evolutions,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":331.251,"endTime":334.651,"body":"such as artificial intelligence, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":334.651,"endTime":339.241,"body":"I think researchers and practitioners"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":334.651,"endTime":339.241,"body":"are really recognising that sport is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":339.241,"endTime":343.471,"body":"changing and if there are new methods"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":339.241,"endTime":343.471,"body":"that can help to, kind of, understand"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":343.471,"endTime":347.221,"body":"that and ensure that these changes"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":343.471,"endTime":347.221,"body":"are used in a positive way, I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":347.221,"endTime":348.781,"body":"there's increasing interest in them."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":349.111,"endTime":352.891,"body":"And I think what complexity"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":349.111,"endTime":352.891,"body":"science systems thinking does,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":352.891,"endTime":355.681,"body":"is it really becomes quite"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":352.891,"endTime":355.681,"body":"attractive when you're trying to..."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":355.711,"endTime":358.981,"body":"it seems to offer something new"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":355.711,"endTime":358.981,"body":"and potentially something beyond"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":358.981,"endTime":360.961,"body":"what existing approaches can do."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":360.961,"endTime":363.841,"body":"And so when there's that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":360.961,"endTime":363.841,"body":"characteristic of a set of methods,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":363.901,"endTime":364.951,"body":"they become really attractive."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":365.701,"endTime":368.251,"body":"I think the second point"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":365.701,"endTime":368.251,"body":"that Scott mentioned is also"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":368.251,"endTime":371.791,"body":"important, and this is certainly"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":368.251,"endTime":371.791,"body":"happening in other areas as well."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":371.791,"endTime":376.711,"body":"So there's a kind of thinking that the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":371.791,"endTime":376.711,"body":"existing foundational methods within"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":376.711,"endTime":380.251,"body":"certain disciplines have taken people"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":376.711,"endTime":380.251,"body":"as far as they can to understanding"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":380.251,"endTime":384.421,"body":"problems, there's this idea, for example,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":380.251,"endTime":384.421,"body":"in sports science, that the foundational"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":384.421,"endTime":388.001,"body":"methods have really taken us as far"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":384.421,"endTime":388.001,"body":"as we can get in terms of optimising"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":388.021,"endTime":389.761,"body":"performance or preventing sports injury."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":390.601,"endTime":395.761,"body":"And then so we have these longstanding,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":390.601,"endTime":395.761,"body":"intractable, potentially more complex"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":395.761,"endTime":397.651,"body":"issues that those methods can't cope with."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":398.101,"endTime":401.701,"body":"And I think, again, complexity science"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":398.101,"endTime":401.701,"body":"systems thinking is very attractive"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":401.701,"endTime":405.421,"body":"because it suggests that if you apply"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":401.701,"endTime":405.421,"body":"these approaches, we can really get at"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":405.421,"endTime":407.791,"body":"these longstanding, intractable issues."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":407.791,"endTime":411.331,"body":"And again, in our work in other"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":407.791,"endTime":411.331,"body":"areas, that's certainly the case in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":411.331,"endTime":416.011,"body":"safety science and areas like road"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":411.331,"endTime":416.011,"body":"safety where you've had significant"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":416.026,"endTime":419.806,"body":"achievements in increasing safety,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":416.026,"endTime":419.806,"body":"but things have kind of stalled."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":419.866,"endTime":422.806,"body":"And, you know, there's this idea"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":419.866,"endTime":422.806,"body":"that, well, these methods and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":422.896,"endTime":425.746,"body":"theories have taken us as far as"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":422.896,"endTime":425.746,"body":"we can go, we need a new approach."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":425.746,"endTime":429.556,"body":"And I think complexity science"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":425.746,"endTime":429.556,"body":"systems thinking kind of fits very"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":429.556,"endTime":430.816,"body":"nicely into that new approach."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":431.864,"endTime":434.834,"body":"I'd like to pick up"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":431.864,"endTime":434.834,"body":"something that you both mentioned then,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":435.014,"endTime":438.914,"body":"at some point in this conversation, which"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":435.014,"endTime":438.914,"body":"is definitely around the notion of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":438.914,"endTime":443.384,"body":"traditional sports science disciplines"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":438.914,"endTime":443.384,"body":"taking us as far as perhaps we can go."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":443.594,"endTime":445.964,"body":"And I do think that's one of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":443.594,"endTime":445.964,"body":"the driving reasons for why"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":445.964,"endTime":447.554,"body":"we're seeing this increase."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":447.764,"endTime":451.904,"body":"I guess to add to what you both said"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":447.764,"endTime":451.904,"body":"then, I mean, I feel quite strongly that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":452.274,"endTime":455.584,"body":"a lot of this is to do with advancements"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":452.274,"endTime":455.584,"body":"in technology, which you both touched on."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":456.024,"endTime":460.169,"body":"And I think that's kind of been associated"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":456.024,"endTime":460.169,"body":"with this concurrent recognition that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":460.169,"endTime":463.769,"body":"there's only so much we can do with all"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":460.169,"endTime":463.769,"body":"this information that we're now starting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":463.769,"endTime":468.559,"body":"to collect, and that the relationships"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":463.769,"endTime":468.559,"body":"between that information is beyond say the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":468.569,"endTime":473.429,"body":"simple human comprehension, that paralysis"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":468.569,"endTime":473.429,"body":"by analysis, or that drowning in data"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":473.549,"endTime":475.349,"body":"phenomenon that people talk about so much."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":475.949,"endTime":480.164,"body":"And something you both touched on a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":475.949,"endTime":480.164,"body":"little bit as well, it's not always"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":480.524,"endTime":483.344,"body":"actually an increase in complexity"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":480.524,"endTime":483.344,"body":"of the environment, it's actually"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":483.344,"endTime":485.074,"body":"just us perceiving it, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":485.084,"endTime":486.374,"body":"Because we're starting to measure more."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":486.374,"endTime":490.064,"body":"So it's all actually always been there,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":486.374,"endTime":490.064,"body":"but that of course causes people to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":490.064,"endTime":494.024,"body":"look for artifacts or frameworks or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":490.064,"endTime":494.024,"body":"theories to help make sense of it all."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":494.024,"endTime":496.934,"body":"And I think if you look at the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":494.024,"endTime":496.934,"body":"research now, and I know you've both"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":496.934,"endTime":501.239,"body":"done some of this, we're starting to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":496.934,"endTime":501.239,"body":"see people recognise this in those"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":501.239,"endTime":503.009,"body":"big questions that sport faces."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":503.009,"endTime":505.619,"body":"So what makes a sporting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":503.009,"endTime":505.619,"body":"team have success?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":505.709,"endTime":509.219,"body":"Why do some talented athletes"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":505.709,"endTime":509.219,"body":"make it and others not?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":509.219,"endTime":513.739,"body":"And even to revert back to a previous"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":509.219,"endTime":513.739,"body":"show, why do some athletes who are exposed"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":513.739,"endTime":517.679,"body":"to exactly the same type of training"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":513.739,"endTime":517.679,"body":"as another get injured and others not?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":517.679,"endTime":519.459,"body":"So I think that's a good starting point."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":519.679,"endTime":521.784,"body":"With all that in mind, the next"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":519.679,"endTime":521.784,"body":"question I really want to move"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":521.784,"endTime":525.924,"body":"on to is why is complexity even"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":521.784,"endTime":525.924,"body":"important to recognise in sport?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":525.924,"endTime":530.364,"body":"And I think we all touched on that then,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":525.924,"endTime":530.364,"body":"but yes there's a technology component"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":530.364,"endTime":534.594,"body":"and yes there's the limitations of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":530.364,"endTime":534.594,"body":"sports science, but there could be a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":534.594,"endTime":539.564,"body":"camp of people that say, We've worked"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":534.594,"endTime":539.564,"body":"particularly well, fine in the past,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":539.564,"endTime":543.044,"body":"we've won medals, we've won championships,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":539.564,"endTime":543.044,"body":"without subscribing to this."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":543.344,"endTime":546.014,"body":"Do we think that's going to remain"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":543.344,"endTime":546.014,"body":"the case in the years to come,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":546.014,"endTime":548.414,"body":"or do you think now it's reached"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":546.014,"endTime":548.414,"body":"that tipping point because of some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":548.414,"endTime":549.464,"body":"of the reasons we've mentioned?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":549.464,"endTime":553.334,"body":"That sport, which is constantly trying"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":549.464,"endTime":553.334,"body":"to evolve and improve, will teams and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":553.334,"endTime":557.064,"body":"athletes continue to have success if they"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":553.334,"endTime":557.064,"body":"don't start to embrace this approach."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":557.486,"endTime":561.326,"body":"I think the short answer to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":557.486,"endTime":561.326,"body":"that really is that complexity's important"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":561.356,"endTime":566.336,"body":"to embrace because really you can't fully"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":561.356,"endTime":566.336,"body":"understand behaviour without doing so."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":566.426,"endTime":569.966,"body":"If we take the example of injury"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":566.426,"endTime":569.966,"body":"prevention, for example, you can focus"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":569.966,"endTime":573.941,"body":"in on a small set of variables and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":569.966,"endTime":573.941,"body":"really understand them in detail and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":573.941,"endTime":577.541,"body":"try to optimise them to prevent injury,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":573.941,"endTime":577.541,"body":"but if you're not acknowledging the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":577.541,"endTime":581.441,"body":"fact that there's a more complex set of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":577.541,"endTime":581.441,"body":"interactions going on here, and there are"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":581.441,"endTime":585.551,"body":"other factors which interact to create"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":581.441,"endTime":585.551,"body":"injury, which can be outside of training"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":585.551,"endTime":589.661,"body":"and matches in a club environment,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":585.551,"endTime":589.661,"body":"then your efforts to prevent injury are"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":589.671,"endTime":591.561,"body":"really never going to be fully effective."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":591.891,"endTime":593.991,"body":"So I think it's really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":591.891,"endTime":593.991,"body":"important to actually embrace"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":593.991,"endTime":595.521,"body":"complexity for that very reason."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":595.851,"endTime":598.911,"body":"The question about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":595.851,"endTime":598.911,"body":"people have always won medals and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":598.911,"endTime":603.241,"body":"we've always had really successful"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":598.911,"endTime":603.241,"body":"teams is a very interesting one."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":603.241,"endTime":606.981,"body":"I don't fully know the answer to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":603.241,"endTime":606.981,"body":"that, but my feeling around this is,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":607.041,"endTime":610.011,"body":"I was talking to Scott about this"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":607.041,"endTime":610.011,"body":"earlier, I think perhaps some of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":610.011,"endTime":616.281,"body":"most successful sporting teams in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":610.011,"endTime":616.281,"body":"history probably have had complexity"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":616.281,"endTime":618.681,"body":"or systems thinkers people at the helm."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":618.771,"endTime":623.001,"body":"And I always refer back to the English"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":618.771,"endTime":623.001,"body":"Rugby World Cup winning side under Clive"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":623.001,"endTime":626.211,"body":"Woodward, and he would often talk in kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":623.001,"endTime":626.211,"body":"of systems thinking terms, even though"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":626.211,"endTime":628.011,"body":"nobody was really labeling it like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":628.011,"endTime":632.271,"body":"So, you know, he would talk about having"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":628.011,"endTime":632.271,"body":"to think differently, question everything."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":632.721,"endTime":636.131,"body":"And when he first came in, I remember"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":632.721,"endTime":636.131,"body":"he used to talk about how he was"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":636.131,"endTime":640.311,"body":"looking to change the way the team"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":636.131,"endTime":640.311,"body":"played on the field, but he was even"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":640.311,"endTime":643.281,"body":"more importantly looking to change"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":640.311,"endTime":643.281,"body":"the way they operated off the field."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":643.701,"endTime":646.641,"body":"And so I wonder if those very"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":643.701,"endTime":646.641,"body":"successful teams actually have"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":646.641,"endTime":649.431,"body":"been doing systems thinking, it"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":646.641,"endTime":649.431,"body":"just hasn't been labeled that way."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":649.551,"endTime":651.381,"body":"That's an interesting"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":649.551,"endTime":651.381,"body":"thing to look at, I think."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":652.061,"endTime":654.641,"body":"Yeah, I would agree"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":652.061,"endTime":654.641,"body":"with that, but also on the flip side"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":654.641,"endTime":657.551,"body":"of successful performance, I mean, if"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":654.641,"endTime":657.551,"body":"you don't understand the complexity"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":657.551,"endTime":661.181,"body":"of the system, you're not going to be"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":657.551,"endTime":661.181,"body":"able to identify the issues or problems"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":661.181,"endTime":664.841,"body":"or, you know, sub-optimal performance"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":661.181,"endTime":664.841,"body":"that will continually arise and occur."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":665.251,"endTime":668.701,"body":"Often what happens in complex systems is"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":665.251,"endTime":668.701,"body":"that, sure, we're good at identifying when"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":668.701,"endTime":671.581,"body":"a problem occurs, but we don't understand"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":668.701,"endTime":671.581,"body":"the reasons why that's occurring."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":672.091,"endTime":676.041,"body":"A good example is if we lose a game or if"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":672.091,"endTime":676.041,"body":"someone is injured, we're quick to try and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":676.041,"endTime":679.881,"body":"point a finger for that broken component"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":676.041,"endTime":679.881,"body":"that caused that loss, but more likely"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":679.881,"endTime":684.651,"body":"there's a myriad of systemic factors that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":679.881,"endTime":684.651,"body":"influenced this, I guess, adverse event."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":685.021,"endTime":688.201,"body":"Our reaction to point to that one"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":685.021,"endTime":688.201,"body":"broken component is because we don't"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":688.201,"endTime":690.281,"body":"understand how the whole system functions."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":690.706,"endTime":693.326,"body":"And I guess this comes back"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":690.706,"endTime":693.326,"body":"to the goals of the system."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":693.326,"endTime":696.716,"body":"So, to you understand systemic"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":693.326,"endTime":696.716,"body":"issues and systemic performance,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":696.716,"endTime":699.296,"body":"you need to understand what the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":696.716,"endTime":699.296,"body":"actual goals of that system is."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":699.636,"endTime":702.936,"body":"How you progress towards these"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":699.636,"endTime":702.936,"body":"goals and also what you need to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":702.936,"endTime":704.586,"body":"actually do to achieve these goals."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":705.126,"endTime":709.146,"body":"And I guess a good example here is"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":705.126,"endTime":709.146,"body":"injury prevention and training load."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":709.416,"endTime":713.166,"body":"In my opinion, there's an excessive amount"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":709.416,"endTime":713.166,"body":"of monitoring of training load these days."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":713.316,"endTime":717.246,"body":"And for me, that's symptomatic of a poorly"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":713.316,"endTime":717.246,"body":"performing system, which is driven by"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":717.246,"endTime":721.256,"body":"poor goals, and stick with me, say we"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":717.246,"endTime":721.256,"body":"looked at a European football league."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":721.256,"endTime":724.331,"body":"I mean, look at the stakeholders at"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":721.256,"endTime":724.331,"body":"the top of that system, at the high"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":724.331,"endTime":727.331,"body":"levels of that system, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":724.331,"endTime":727.331,"body":"we've got TV broadcasters, we've"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":727.331,"endTime":731.951,"body":"got multinational corporations with"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":727.331,"endTime":731.951,"body":"sponsorship and advertising, and that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":731.951,"endTime":733.541,"body":"goal of them is to make money, right?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":733.901,"endTime":736.601,"body":"So if a goal of the system is to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":733.901,"endTime":736.601,"body":"make money, this means that players"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":736.601,"endTime":737.981,"body":"are playing 60 matches a year."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":737.981,"endTime":739.631,"body":"So it becomes important to monitor load."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":740.021,"endTime":742.571,"body":"Whereas, you know, if the goal of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":740.021,"endTime":742.571,"body":"that system changed to be player"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":742.571,"endTime":746.561,"body":"welfare or player wellbeing, there'd"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":742.571,"endTime":746.561,"body":"be less need for games and we probably"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":746.561,"endTime":748.491,"body":"would need less load monitoring."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":748.871,"endTime":751.301,"body":"But you know, on the flip side of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":748.871,"endTime":751.301,"body":"that, coaches could also be doing"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":751.301,"endTime":754.331,"body":"more coaching rather than just"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":751.301,"endTime":754.331,"body":"preparing players for games as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":754.331,"endTime":757.661,"body":"So complex systems are counterintuitive,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":754.331,"endTime":757.661,"body":"so I guess a counterintuitive of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":757.661,"endTime":760.391,"body":"that would be that playing less"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":757.661,"endTime":760.391,"body":"games you would actually get a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":760.391,"endTime":763.751,"body":"better product, good players will be"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":760.391,"endTime":763.751,"body":"playing, probably the better players"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":763.751,"endTime":766.151,"body":"would be playing every match, and the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":763.751,"endTime":766.151,"body":"stakeholders would still make money."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":766.386,"endTime":769.326,"body":"So I guess what I'm trying to say is,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":766.386,"endTime":769.326,"body":"if you push the system in a certain"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":769.326,"endTime":772.026,"body":"direction and you push hard on a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":769.326,"endTime":772.026,"body":"system, it will eventually push back"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":772.026,"endTime":773.376,"body":"a little bit harder somewhere else."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":773.616,"endTime":776.796,"body":"And the comment that Paul made, that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":773.616,"endTime":776.796,"body":"the goals of the system influences"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":776.796,"endTime":780.996,"body":"the behaviour and that that system"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":776.796,"endTime":780.996,"body":"influences actually down to the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":780.996,"endTime":782.706,"body":"players' and the athletes' performance."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":783.156,"endTime":785.916,"body":"So looking at what can go wrong"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":783.156,"endTime":785.916,"body":"I guess also, as well as what"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":785.916,"endTime":786.786,"body":"can go right with the system."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":787.501,"endTime":790.881,"body":"And I think just quickly on that injury"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":787.501,"endTime":790.881,"body":"prevention stuff, and Paul mentioned"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":790.881,"endTime":794.421,"body":"this as well, that we're continually"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":790.881,"endTime":794.421,"body":"looking down and in at the athlete and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":794.421,"endTime":797.541,"body":"the environment, I think, and I honestly"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":794.421,"endTime":797.541,"body":"believe that we will understand more"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":797.541,"endTime":801.231,"body":"about injury and injury prevention if"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":797.541,"endTime":801.231,"body":"we look up and out towards the system."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":801.571,"endTime":805.471,"body":"The road safety stuff that Paul does is a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":801.571,"endTime":805.471,"body":"great example where, Paul you can jump in,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":805.471,"endTime":810.561,"body":"you know this better than me, but the road"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":805.471,"endTime":810.561,"body":"safety efforts we're focused on education"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":810.561,"endTime":815.426,"body":"to drivers enforcement by police, and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":810.561,"endTime":815.426,"body":"engineering of vehicles, but now we're"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":815.426,"endTime":818.236,"body":"starting to look at these broader systemic"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":815.426,"endTime":818.236,"body":"things to try and bring that down."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":818.703,"endTime":821.313,"body":"Yeah, I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":818.703,"endTime":821.313,"body":"often a good example to use because"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":821.313,"endTime":822.633,"body":"everybody knows it quite well."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":822.633,"endTime":827.213,"body":"You know, for decades in road safety,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":822.633,"endTime":827.213,"body":"the whole response to road toll and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":827.233,"endTime":830.973,"body":"road crashes was to basically try"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":827.233,"endTime":830.973,"body":"and fix the drivers, stop the drivers"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":830.973,"endTime":834.663,"body":"doing silly things, and I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":830.973,"endTime":834.663,"body":"there's been a shift really in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":834.663,"endTime":838.833,"body":"last, kind of, decade in road safety"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":834.663,"endTime":838.833,"body":"where road safety practitioners really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":838.833,"endTime":842.223,"body":"now understand that actually there's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":838.833,"endTime":842.223,"body":"a lot of these levers that you can"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":842.223,"endTime":845.433,"body":"pull elsewhere that will actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":842.223,"endTime":845.433,"body":"influence driver behaviour for the good."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":845.433,"endTime":848.053,"body":"And the good example there is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":845.433,"endTime":848.053,"body":"you have accident black spots."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":848.538,"endTime":851.598,"body":"And so, you know, an accident, black"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":848.538,"endTime":851.598,"body":"spot, you can't be telling me that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":851.598,"endTime":855.288,"body":"every single driver makes the same"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":851.598,"endTime":855.288,"body":"mistake in one place because of nothing,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":855.288,"endTime":856.798,"body":"just something internal to them."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":857.348,"endTime":861.198,"body":"And so it's this idea that there are other"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":857.348,"endTime":861.198,"body":"levers to pull as well, and I think the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":861.198,"endTime":863.958,"body":"same thinking exactly applies in sport."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":863.958,"endTime":867.798,"body":"We can try and fix individuals"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":863.958,"endTime":867.798,"body":"and understand individual"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":867.798,"endTime":869.418,"body":"behaviour as much as we want."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":869.558,"endTime":873.213,"body":"And now, you know, that is useful,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":869.558,"endTime":873.213,"body":"don't get me wrong, but the real power"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":873.213,"endTime":877.173,"body":"is in trying to understand what are"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":873.213,"endTime":877.173,"body":"those other influences across the system"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":877.173,"endTime":878.953,"body":"that actually drive that behaviour."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":879.593,"endTime":883.163,"body":"That's a great example and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":879.593,"endTime":883.163,"body":"I think there's obviously so much that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":883.163,"endTime":886.013,"body":"sport can learn from other disciplines"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":883.163,"endTime":886.013,"body":"and other fields, and that's a real"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":886.013,"endTime":887.683,"body":"theme that crops up a lot on this show."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":888.043,"endTime":891.253,"body":"There's a few things in your responses"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":888.043,"endTime":891.253,"body":"that I want to comment on and perhaps"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":891.283,"endTime":894.763,"body":"pick up on before we start to talk"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":891.283,"endTime":894.763,"body":"about some of the tools that we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":894.763,"endTime":896.543,"body":"might be able to use practically."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":897.038,"endTime":901.458,"body":"The first one was around that recognition,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":897.038,"endTime":901.458,"body":"I think you used the example of the Rugby"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":901.458,"endTime":906.488,"body":"World Cup, Paul, around this not being"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":901.458,"endTime":906.488,"body":"new and it not even being newly adopted,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":906.488,"endTime":911.348,"body":"it's perhaps hasn't been explicitly stated"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":906.488,"endTime":911.348,"body":"in the past, and that's a positive, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":911.378,"endTime":913.208,"body":"also a potential risk here, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":913.208,"endTime":918.353,"body":"I think we've seen in sport, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":913.208,"endTime":918.353,"body":"more than in other areas even, that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":918.353,"endTime":922.013,"body":"there is a tendency for there to be a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":918.353,"endTime":922.013,"body":"flavor of the month and certain people"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":922.013,"endTime":926.633,"body":"pick up certain ideas and unfortunately"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":922.013,"endTime":926.633,"body":"not always implement them in a way"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":926.633,"endTime":928.253,"body":"that's true to that particular idea."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":928.253,"endTime":932.203,"body":"And that can sometimes mean that the idea"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":928.253,"endTime":932.203,"body":"doesn't take hold or it's not sustainable"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":932.203,"endTime":935.143,"body":"in sport, and I think this is a real"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":932.203,"endTime":935.143,"body":"risk for the complexity and the systems"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":935.143,"endTime":936.583,"body":"thinking area as well, I would say."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":936.883,"endTime":937.753,"body":"In fact, I might stop there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":937.753,"endTime":939.013,"body":"I mean, do you agree with that?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":939.013,"endTime":940.663,"body":"Is that something that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":939.013,"endTime":940.663,"body":"you've seen already?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":940.663,"endTime":944.353,"body":"You guys are doing a lot of this work,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":940.663,"endTime":944.353,"body":"not just in sport, but in other areas."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":945.058,"endTime":946.388,"body":"Have you run into that problem already?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":946.688,"endTime":949.658,"body":"Yeah, I think absolutely"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":946.688,"endTime":949.658,"body":"that is a problem and a risk, and I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":949.658,"endTime":953.408,"body":"one of the key things that are linked"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":949.658,"endTime":953.408,"body":"to that, which is a challenge that we've"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":953.408,"endTime":958.898,"body":"had both in sport and other areas, is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":953.408,"endTime":958.898,"body":"people want evidence that the complexity"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":958.898,"endTime":962.678,"body":"approach or the systems thinking"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":958.898,"endTime":962.678,"body":"approach actually brings you a benefit."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":962.768,"endTime":967.603,"body":"And, you know, we're all researchers,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":962.768,"endTime":967.603,"body":"to actually tease out the direct"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":967.603,"endTime":971.113,"body":"benefit of taking a complex systems"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":967.603,"endTime":971.113,"body":"approach is extremely difficult."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":971.113,"endTime":975.223,"body":"So my big concern is that people latch"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":971.113,"endTime":975.223,"body":"onto it, but then there are really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":975.223,"endTime":980.293,"body":"not many studies that actually try and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":975.223,"endTime":980.293,"body":"identify the direct benefits of it."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":980.413,"endTime":983.846,"body":"And so people start to kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":980.413,"endTime":983.846,"body":"forget, or even criticise it and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":983.846,"endTime":986.966,"body":"say, well, there's no direct evidence"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":983.846,"endTime":986.966,"body":"of a benefit here so we're not"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":986.966,"endTime":988.196,"body":"actually going to use it anymore."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":988.196,"endTime":991.871,"body":"So that's my big concern with"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":988.196,"endTime":991.871,"body":"it, becoming a buzzword, lack of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":991.871,"endTime":993.731,"body":"evidence, and then it just dying away."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":994.041,"endTime":996.111,"body":"You're already seeing"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":994.041,"endTime":996.111,"body":"papers that they'll start off by"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":996.111,"endTime":999.291,"body":"acknowledging that things are complex,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":996.111,"endTime":999.291,"body":"but then they'll reduce it down to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":999.291,"endTime":1002.111,"body":"one or two variables and you think,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":999.291,"endTime":1002.111,"body":"well, that's not what complexity is."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1002.111,"endTime":1005.001,"body":"You can't reduce it down to one"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1002.111,"endTime":1005.001,"body":"or two variables, but that might"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1005.308,"endTime":1008.728,"body":"be direction from reviewers or"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1005.308,"endTime":1008.728,"body":"whatever, you don't know, but yeah,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1008.758,"endTime":1012.718,"body":"it definitely has the potential to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1008.758,"endTime":1012.718,"body":"be misused and sort of misunderstood."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1013.478,"endTime":1014.798,"body":"But yeah, we're definitely seeing it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1015.164,"endTime":1017.534,"body":"It does tie into"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1015.164,"endTime":1017.534,"body":"the next topic I wanted to talk to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1017.534,"endTime":1022.124,"body":"you about, which are the tools that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1017.534,"endTime":1022.124,"body":"people in practice can adopt to help"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1022.454,"endTime":1024.314,"body":"embrace and then leverage complexity."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1024.784,"endTime":1028.774,"body":"And of course, some of those require"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1024.784,"endTime":1028.774,"body":"things to be reduced down into something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1028.774,"endTime":1032.224,"body":"that is more simple or more easily"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1028.774,"endTime":1032.224,"body":"understandable, but it's a fine line."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1032.224,"endTime":1035.884,"body":"And sometimes it's not a fine line"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1032.224,"endTime":1035.884,"body":"between completely changing what a complex"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1035.884,"endTime":1039.514,"body":"systems approach is, or a systems thinking"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1035.884,"endTime":1039.514,"body":"approach is, and making it more usable."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1039.634,"endTime":1044.264,"body":"The other comment I would make at this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1039.634,"endTime":1044.264,"body":"point would be that it's certainly, we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1044.264,"endTime":1046.159,"body":"are seeing it be adopted more in practice."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1046.159,"endTime":1047.209,"body":"I think it's self-evident."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1047.269,"endTime":1051.259,"body":"You know, a lot of organizations"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1047.269,"endTime":1051.259,"body":"are now starting to recognise"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1051.259,"endTime":1054.799,"body":"that there's realised, and in some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1051.259,"endTime":1054.799,"body":"cases unrealised, influences on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1054.799,"endTime":1056.789,"body":"athletes and teams everywhere."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1056.869,"endTime":1060.979,"body":"I think in particular, the acceptance"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1056.869,"endTime":1060.979,"body":"of this impact of sociocultural"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1061.369,"endTime":1063.109,"body":"influences on athletes and teams."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1063.449,"endTime":1066.824,"body":"So there is a step in the right way,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1063.449,"endTime":1066.824,"body":"and even if it's not always explicitly"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1066.824,"endTime":1069.164,"body":"stated or completely understood."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1069.614,"endTime":1073.124,"body":"What other point I wanted to make"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1069.614,"endTime":1073.124,"body":"to add to what we just talked"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1073.124,"endTime":1078.214,"body":"about, about why we're seeing this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1073.124,"endTime":1078.214,"body":"perhaps grow, at least the demand"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1078.214,"endTime":1080.494,"body":"for it grow, is in data resolution."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1080.554,"endTime":1083.874,"body":"We certainly talked about the increase"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1080.554,"endTime":1083.874,"body":"in technology, but you know an example"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1083.874,"endTime":1087.904,"body":"I give a lot can be from scouting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1083.874,"endTime":1087.904,"body":"or talent ID in sport, for example."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1088.139,"endTime":1092.489,"body":"If we go back, not that long ago, the way"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1088.139,"endTime":1092.489,"body":"you would evaluate an athlete's running"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1092.489,"endTime":1097.169,"body":"technique, for example, would be by eye or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1092.489,"endTime":1097.169,"body":"from a static camera, which may or may not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1097.169,"endTime":1099.329,"body":"be directly perpendicular to the athlete."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1099.599,"endTime":1104.159,"body":"We're now moving into being able to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1099.599,"endTime":1104.159,"body":"do that in 3D analysis in labs, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1104.319,"endTime":1107.349,"body":"now of course, almost marker-less"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1104.319,"endTime":1107.349,"body":"motion capture out in the field."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1107.629,"endTime":1111.259,"body":"This is not only increasing the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1107.629,"endTime":1111.259,"body":"resolution of the data, but also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1111.499,"endTime":1112.879,"body":"its complexity in many cases."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1112.879,"endTime":1116.089,"body":"We're able to look at these things"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1112.879,"endTime":1116.089,"body":"continuously, and of course we need to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1116.089,"endTime":1117.769,"body":"find analysis tools that help us with it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1118.529,"endTime":1122.039,"body":"So I think the technology is driving"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1118.529,"endTime":1122.039,"body":"us there through the types of data"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1122.039,"endTime":1124.589,"body":"that it brings out, and that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1122.039,"endTime":1124.589,"body":"where it does become a necessity."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1124.679,"endTime":1128.519,"body":"If organisations aren't picking up"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1124.679,"endTime":1128.519,"body":"tools that can handle that data, they"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1128.519,"endTime":1129.959,"body":"simply won't be able to use it anymore."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1129.989,"endTime":1131.849,"body":"So I think that's another consideration."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1132.209,"endTime":1135.569,"body":"And so that probably provides a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1132.209,"endTime":1135.569,"body":"nice segue onto tools, full stop."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1135.649,"endTime":1138.979,"body":"What tools can people typically"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1135.649,"endTime":1138.979,"body":"call on to handle complexity?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1138.979,"endTime":1142.629,"body":"And when I talk about complexity, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1138.979,"endTime":1142.629,"body":"don't just mean handling it, but I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1142.639,"endTime":1147.949,"body":"mean, firstly, probably recognising"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1142.639,"endTime":1147.949,"body":"that a situation is complex or a complex"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1147.949,"endTime":1151.069,"body":"systems approach is suitable, and then"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1147.949,"endTime":1151.069,"body":"of course being able to measure that,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1151.129,"endTime":1154.549,"body":"embrace it, and of course, like we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1151.129,"endTime":1154.549,"body":"always want to do in sport, leverage"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1154.549,"endTime":1156.469,"body":"that to create a competitive advantage."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1157.114,"endTime":1159.334,"body":"So when I talk about tools,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1157.114,"endTime":1159.334,"body":"you know, that could be an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1159.644,"endTime":1161.854,"body":"artifact, a theory, a framework."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1162.064,"endTime":1165.454,"body":"I know you've done a lot of work"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1162.064,"endTime":1165.454,"body":"with cognitive work analysis in some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1165.454,"endTime":1166.804,"body":"of your papers applied to sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1166.954,"endTime":1169.984,"body":"What are some of the things that you've"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1166.954,"endTime":1169.984,"body":"had success in, in sport already,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1169.984,"endTime":1171.844,"body":"or you'd like to address in future?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1172.284,"endTime":1174.264,"body":"Firstly, like,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1172.284,"endTime":1174.264,"body":"complexity science is massive."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1174.504,"endTime":1178.274,"body":"There's a brilliant map of complexity"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1174.504,"endTime":1178.274,"body":"by Castellani, which demonstrates"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1178.231,"endTime":1180.931,"body":"all the different theories,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1178.231,"endTime":1180.931,"body":"methods, analyses, models, and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1180.931,"endTime":1182.311,"body":"then their evolution across time."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1182.311,"endTime":1183.531,"body":"So I'd suggest people have a look at that."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1183.531,"endTime":1187.616,"body":"But yeah within that, I think there's"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1183.531,"endTime":1187.616,"body":"over 50 or 60 different of these"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1187.616,"endTime":1189.326,"body":"subdisciplines within complexity science."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1189.326,"endTime":1190.076,"body":"So it's huge."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1190.386,"endTime":1193.536,"body":"We typically use methods from"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1190.386,"endTime":1193.536,"body":"systems ergonomics and we use"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1193.536,"endTime":1194.676,"body":"this for a number of purposes."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1194.676,"endTime":1199.926,"body":"So for design, redesign, risk assessment,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1194.676,"endTime":1199.926,"body":"behaviour of systems, But again,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1200.046,"endTime":1203.526,"body":"a major focus of these is on those"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1200.046,"endTime":1203.526,"body":"connections between the components."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1203.766,"endTime":1207.296,"body":"So you mentioned there cognitive work"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1203.766,"endTime":1207.296,"body":"analysis, particularly the first phase"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1207.296,"endTime":1210.296,"body":"of that, which is called work domain"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1207.296,"endTime":1210.296,"body":"analysis, we've published a few papers"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1210.296,"endTime":1215.336,"body":"in, which sort of gives us a map of the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1210.296,"endTime":1215.336,"body":"functional structure of what a system is."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1215.336,"endTime":1219.066,"body":"So within that, you'll include the goals"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1215.336,"endTime":1219.066,"body":"of the system, how you measure those"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1219.066,"endTime":1220.596,"body":"goals or how you're achieving those goals."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1221.361,"endTime":1225.501,"body":"All of the functions that need to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1221.361,"endTime":1225.501,"body":"be completed or performed to achieve"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1225.501,"endTime":1228.561,"body":"those goals, right through to the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1225.501,"endTime":1228.561,"body":"physical objects in the system, what"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1228.561,"endTime":1230.331,"body":"they do within the system as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1230.821,"endTime":1234.271,"body":"We've used that quite a bit with"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1230.821,"endTime":1234.271,"body":"a few different sporting teams."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1234.271,"endTime":1239.071,"body":"So with netball, AFL, para-sport,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1234.271,"endTime":1239.071,"body":"at the individual level, in talent"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1239.071,"endTime":1242.161,"body":"identification, performance in a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1239.071,"endTime":1242.161,"body":"football match, we've applied this,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1242.281,"endTime":1244.801,"body":"we actually call it the hammer cause"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1242.281,"endTime":1244.801,"body":"you can just apply it to everything."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1244.921,"endTime":1246.281,"body":"It's just a big sledgehammer."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1246.736,"endTime":1249.136,"body":"But I think one of the other, and Paul"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1246.736,"endTime":1249.136,"body":"can probably talk more about that in"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1249.136,"endTime":1252.256,"body":"a minute, but I think one of the great"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1249.136,"endTime":1252.256,"body":"things about systems thinking methods is"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1252.256,"endTime":1256.466,"body":"that, they can be really basic using a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1252.256,"endTime":1256.466,"body":"pen and paper, or they can be extremely"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1256.466,"endTime":1258.656,"body":"complex using computation and modeling."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1258.656,"endTime":1262.136,"body":"But I think whatever method you choose,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1258.656,"endTime":1262.136,"body":"you're going to actually get some"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1262.136,"endTime":1265.006,"body":"insights into the behavior of the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1262.136,"endTime":1265.006,"body":"system or the structure of the system."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1265.111,"endTime":1269.941,"body":"So, yeah, I guess in terms of choosing"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1265.111,"endTime":1269.941,"body":"a tool it would depend on your expertise"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1269.941,"endTime":1273.331,"body":"and your budgets and all that sort"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1269.941,"endTime":1273.331,"body":"of thing, but just jump in and get"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1273.331,"endTime":1274.921,"body":"into systems would be my advice."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1275.131,"endTime":1278.211,"body":"For me, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1275.131,"endTime":1278.211,"body":"the key tools are these modelling"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1278.431,"endTime":1280.021,"body":"tools or methods that we use."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1280.021,"endTime":1285.271,"body":"And really it's quite interesting because"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1280.021,"endTime":1285.271,"body":"the methods, and indeed the theories, are"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1285.511,"endTime":1289.501,"body":"a risk to complexity science in sports"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1285.511,"endTime":1289.501,"body":"science, or a weakness of it, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1289.531,"endTime":1293.911,"body":"which one's the best way to say this, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1289.531,"endTime":1293.911,"body":"there are a variety of tools available."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1293.911,"endTime":1298.111,"body":"So we have a different set of tools that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1293.911,"endTime":1298.111,"body":"we can apply based on project needs."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1298.111,"endTime":1301.516,"body":"So, you know, causal loop diagrams"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1298.111,"endTime":1301.516,"body":"where you're modelling feedback"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1301.656,"endTime":1304.656,"body":"loops and interactive loops within"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1301.656,"endTime":1304.656,"body":"a system that influenced behavior."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1304.656,"endTime":1309.156,"body":"We have systems analysis tools like work"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1304.656,"endTime":1309.156,"body":"domain analysis that Scott talked about."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1309.466,"endTime":1312.576,"body":"There's STAMP systems, theoretic"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1309.466,"endTime":1312.576,"body":"accident modelling and processes"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1312.576,"endTime":1315.696,"body":"tools, which looks at the hierarchy"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1312.576,"endTime":1315.696,"body":"in a system and all of the different"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1315.696,"endTime":1318.306,"body":"controls that exist around behaviour."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1318.651,"endTime":1321.501,"body":"And then there are computational"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1318.651,"endTime":1321.501,"body":"modeling techniques, like system"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1321.501,"endTime":1325.281,"body":"dynamics, agent-based modeling, more"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1321.501,"endTime":1325.281,"body":"tools that I don't really understand,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1325.281,"endTime":1328.361,"body":"the complex mathematical modeling"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1325.281,"endTime":1328.361,"body":"tools that kind of have a role to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1328.361,"endTime":1330.101,"body":"play in complexity science as well."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1330.101,"endTime":1333.221,"body":"But I think the key thing here, and it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1330.101,"endTime":1333.221,"body":"really interesting and it's something"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1333.221,"endTime":1336.531,"body":"certainly we're interested in in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1333.221,"endTime":1336.531,"body":"work we do here in the centre, is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1336.531,"endTime":1339.706,"body":"there's a big research practice gap"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1336.531,"endTime":1339.706,"body":"with these theories and these methods."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1339.706,"endTime":1344.206,"body":"So what you have is a set of academics"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1339.706,"endTime":1344.206,"body":"who are well across these theories"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1344.206,"endTime":1348.106,"body":"and who are applying these methods and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1344.206,"endTime":1348.106,"body":"modeling tools in various areas of sport,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1348.686,"endTime":1353.236,"body":"and much less use of these tools in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1348.686,"endTime":1353.236,"body":"practice, and that's for various reasons."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1353.266,"endTime":1356.996,"body":"Practitioners don't have good access"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1353.266,"endTime":1356.996,"body":"to the tools, they don't have access"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1356.996,"endTime":1360.386,"body":"to training, things that are behind"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1356.996,"endTime":1360.386,"body":"firewalls and all of those barriers"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1360.386,"endTime":1362.276,"body":"that kind of limit research translation."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1362.576,"endTime":1365.996,"body":"And so what you can, and I've seen this"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1362.576,"endTime":1365.996,"body":"before in other areas, particularly"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1365.996,"endTime":1370.346,"body":"in safety, you get this idea that,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1365.996,"endTime":1370.346,"body":"well, it's just these boffins in their"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1370.346,"endTime":1371.966,"body":"ivory tower applying these methods."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1371.966,"endTime":1374.606,"body":"They mean nothing for practice"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1371.966,"endTime":1374.606,"body":"because nobody's using them."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1374.606,"endTime":1378.776,"body":"And I think that is a really big threat"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1374.606,"endTime":1378.776,"body":"to complexity in sports science, is that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1378.776,"endTime":1382.226,"body":"really there's not a lot of expertise"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1378.776,"endTime":1382.226,"body":"or use of the methods in practice."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1382.226,"endTime":1386.156,"body":"And actually we saw this in a webinar"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1382.226,"endTime":1386.156,"body":"that we run last year, which I think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1386.156,"endTime":1390.116,"body":"had about 120 people turn up to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1386.156,"endTime":1390.116,"body":"webinar where we presented on some of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1390.116,"endTime":1391.946,"body":"the principles of complexity and so on."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1392.276,"endTime":1397.376,"body":"There was just a massive demand after"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1392.276,"endTime":1397.376,"body":"that webinar for training in the methods."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1397.436,"endTime":1400.751,"body":"You know, people kind of, we really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1397.436,"endTime":1400.751,"body":"want this approach, we really think"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1400.751,"endTime":1403.931,"body":"it's really interesting, we want to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1400.751,"endTime":1403.931,"body":"apply it, but what methods are there"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1403.931,"endTime":1405.251,"body":"and how do we actually use them?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1405.251,"endTime":1406.841,"body":"Where's the training for these methods?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1406.841,"endTime":1409.571,"body":"So I think there's lots of tools"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1406.841,"endTime":1409.571,"body":"available, but I think there's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1409.571,"endTime":1413.111,"body":"definitely work to be done in terms"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1409.571,"endTime":1413.111,"body":"of, I think it's on us as well,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1413.111,"endTime":1416.261,"body":"the research is actually helping to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1413.111,"endTime":1416.261,"body":"translate these methods in practice."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1417.046,"endTime":1419.096,"body":"Just to add to that,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1417.046,"endTime":1419.096,"body":"the approach that we take is we"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1419.096,"endTime":1422.636,"body":"build models with the organisations"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1419.096,"endTime":1422.636,"body":"or the club or whoever it might"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1422.636,"endTime":1424.226,"body":"be, and we use them as the experts."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1424.226,"endTime":1427.556,"body":"So they're sort of involved in"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1424.226,"endTime":1427.556,"body":"building their own system model."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1427.719,"endTime":1429.649,"body":"And they get really good"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1427.719,"endTime":1429.649,"body":"buy-in from that as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1429.999,"endTime":1433.039,"body":"They're actually often quite blown away"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1429.999,"endTime":1433.039,"body":"that when we point out to them like,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1433.219,"endTime":1437.209,"body":"okay, this is the goal of your system,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1433.219,"endTime":1437.209,"body":"but you've got nothing, you're performing"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1437.209,"endTime":1440.829,"body":"no functions to achieve this goal, but"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1437.209,"endTime":1440.829,"body":"you still think this is a goal of your"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1440.829,"endTime":1443.589,"body":"system, or, you know, this is a goal"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1440.829,"endTime":1443.589,"body":"of your system, but you're not actually"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1443.589,"endTime":1446.589,"body":"measuring this goal in any way so how do"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1443.589,"endTime":1446.589,"body":"you know if you're achieving this goal?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1447.099,"endTime":1451.619,"body":"And when the experts and the stakeholders"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1447.099,"endTime":1451.619,"body":"of the system see that they take a step"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1451.619,"endTime":1455.429,"body":"back and go, right, we need to change"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1451.619,"endTime":1455.429,"body":"this and redesign our football program,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1455.429,"endTime":1459.454,"body":"which is what we did earlier this year,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1455.429,"endTime":1459.454,"body":"last year, I get confused with years of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1459.464,"endTime":1463.024,"body":"through COVID, but with one of the AFL"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1459.464,"endTime":1463.024,"body":"football clubs, we did a project with"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1463.024,"endTime":1466.354,"body":"them and yeah, they went away and changed"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1463.024,"endTime":1466.354,"body":"their whole structure of their system"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1466.684,"endTime":1470.104,"body":"based on this analysis or, you know, parts"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1466.684,"endTime":1470.104,"body":"of the system based on this analysis."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1471.199,"endTime":1474.099,"body":"What was coming to mind"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1471.199,"endTime":1474.099,"body":"as you were speaking was the diversity of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1474.099,"endTime":1477.159,"body":"this, and you used the term the hammer,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1474.099,"endTime":1477.159,"body":"which I liked, but the diversity being"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1477.159,"endTime":1481.239,"body":"such a strength that just about any"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1477.159,"endTime":1481.239,"body":"problem that someone's coming to you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1481.269,"endTime":1485.559,"body":"with, or an organisation's coming to you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1481.269,"endTime":1485.559,"body":"with, you can actually provide a tool."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1485.769,"endTime":1489.159,"body":"As you were giving that last example,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1485.769,"endTime":1489.159,"body":"Scott, my mind went to this notion of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1489.279,"endTime":1493.409,"body":"mapping someone's mental model of an area,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1489.279,"endTime":1493.409,"body":"which is similar to the example you gave."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1493.869,"endTime":1497.409,"body":"It also made me think a little"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1493.869,"endTime":1497.409,"body":"bit about the workforce in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1497.409,"endTime":1498.909,"body":"sport, but also in academia."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1498.999,"endTime":1503.019,"body":"And it's a topic we've spoken about ad"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1498.999,"endTime":1503.019,"body":"nauseum on this particular show, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1503.109,"endTime":1507.219,"body":"I feel like I think academics get a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1503.109,"endTime":1507.219,"body":"lot of stick and a lot of it's quite"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1507.249,"endTime":1510.879,"body":"rightly justified for sitting in the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1507.249,"endTime":1510.879,"body":"ivory towers, but I also think the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1510.879,"endTime":1512.589,"body":"training has let us down in sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1512.619,"endTime":1516.039,"body":"We are still very discipline-heavy"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1512.619,"endTime":1516.039,"body":"in the way that we train our sports"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1516.039,"endTime":1519.729,"body":"scientists, and I think there's massive"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1516.039,"endTime":1519.729,"body":"gaps and this area is one of them."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1520.149,"endTime":1522.429,"body":"But again, that's not just"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1520.149,"endTime":1522.429,"body":"limited to sport, as we know."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1522.879,"endTime":1526.029,"body":"And of course that's the same in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1522.879,"endTime":1526.029,"body":"sporting circles and I don't know"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1526.029,"endTime":1529.609,"body":"which area will improve quicker,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1526.029,"endTime":1529.609,"body":"whether it'll be academia, or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1529.659,"endTime":1531.249,"body":"professional or high-level sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1531.249,"endTime":1533.439,"body":"But I feel like they're both"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1531.249,"endTime":1533.439,"body":"lagging behind a little bit."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1533.439,"endTime":1537.069,"body":"And again, they're not the only ones"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1533.439,"endTime":1537.069,"body":"as I say, but they certainly are."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1537.493,"endTime":1540.463,"body":"It might be worth at this point"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1537.493,"endTime":1540.463,"body":"talking about your own journeys just"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1540.463,"endTime":1545.113,"body":"briefly in terms of, how did you arrive"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1540.463,"endTime":1545.113,"body":"getting involved in this in sport?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1545.113,"endTime":1547.603,"body":"I mean, was it something you were"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1545.113,"endTime":1547.603,"body":"driving towards or did he see the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1547.603,"endTime":1548.623,"body":"gap or was it through demands?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1549.273,"endTime":1549.813,"body":"I'll start."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1549.813,"endTime":1552.993,"body":"Like, I did a Bachelor of Sport"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1549.813,"endTime":1552.993,"body":"and Exercise Science and then a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1552.993,"endTime":1556.533,"body":"Master's where I was looking at"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1552.993,"endTime":1556.533,"body":"muscle oxygenation in thigh muscles."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1556.533,"endTime":1559.023,"body":"And so, I mean, you can't get"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1556.533,"endTime":1559.023,"body":"more in the weeds than that."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1559.023,"endTime":1563.493,"body":"And I happened to get introduced to Paul"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1559.023,"endTime":1563.493,"body":"and we talked about doing a PhD together"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1563.493,"endTime":1565.533,"body":"and he introduced me to this system stuff."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1565.533,"endTime":1569.538,"body":"And because I'm also a coach and a bit"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1565.533,"endTime":1569.538,"body":"of a practitioner in sport as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1569.538,"endTime":1575.058,"body":"So going from this narrow, focused,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1569.538,"endTime":1575.058,"body":"in-the-weeds type thing to this systems"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1575.058,"endTime":1578.718,"body":"thinking, I was quite blown away with"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1575.058,"endTime":1578.718,"body":"it and the power of it that you can have"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1578.988,"endTime":1582.918,"body":"over, so that, as I mentioned earlier,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1578.988,"endTime":1582.918,"body":"that looking up and out rather than down"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1582.918,"endTime":1587.248,"body":"and in, has really sort of helped me along"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1582.918,"endTime":1587.248,"body":"as an academic, but also as a coach, yeah."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1588.073,"endTime":1589.603,"body":"Yeah, my journey"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1588.073,"endTime":1589.603,"body":"is an interesting one."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1589.603,"endTime":1592.303,"body":"So I'm actually a failed"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1589.603,"endTime":1592.303,"body":"sports scientist at heart."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1592.303,"endTime":1594.633,"body":"So I did an undergraduate"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1592.303,"endTime":1594.633,"body":"degree in sports science."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1594.633,"endTime":1595.703,"body":"What does that mean, Paul?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1597.423,"endTime":1600.523,"body":"It means I did a degree"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1597.423,"endTime":1600.523,"body":"in it, but then really, and I guess it"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1600.523,"endTime":1603.253,"body":"points to some of what you're saying,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1600.523,"endTime":1603.253,"body":"I remember being called into a lecture"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1603.253,"endTime":1606.223,"body":"room and the lecturers kind of say, look,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1603.253,"endTime":1606.223,"body":"you've got your degree in sports science,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1606.223,"endTime":1609.143,"body":"but you're not specialised in anything"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1606.223,"endTime":1609.143,"body":"so you need to go and do something else."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1609.213,"endTime":1614.008,"body":"And about that time, a master's degree"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1609.213,"endTime":1614.008,"body":"course in applied ergonomics came up and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1614.008,"endTime":1617.098,"body":"I knew about applied ergonomics cause in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1614.008,"endTime":1617.098,"body":"the sport science degree we'd looked at"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1617.098,"endTime":1619.108,"body":"football boot design and anthropometrics."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1619.408,"endTime":1621.838,"body":"So I thought, well, I have got"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1619.408,"endTime":1621.838,"body":"nothing better to do so I'll"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1621.838,"endTime":1623.188,"body":"go and do this master's degree."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1623.218,"endTime":1627.298,"body":"And on the master's degree, there was a"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1623.218,"endTime":1627.298,"body":"module on basically accident analysis and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1627.298,"endTime":1631.258,"body":"investigation, and systems thinking was"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1627.298,"endTime":1631.258,"body":"a part of that and I was just completely"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1631.258,"endTime":1635.878,"body":"blown away by, you know, these broader"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1631.258,"endTime":1635.878,"body":"kind of theories about how people"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1635.878,"endTime":1638.118,"body":"behave as they do in certain situations."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1638.448,"endTime":1641.893,"body":"And so I completed a master's degree,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1638.448,"endTime":1641.893,"body":"I did a PhD in human factors and then"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1642.093,"endTime":1645.893,"body":"spent a few years working, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1642.093,"endTime":1645.893,"body":"looking in safety and optimising"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1645.913,"endTime":1650.263,"body":"systems, but I was always thinking"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1645.913,"endTime":1650.263,"body":"these methods could be used in sport."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1650.293,"endTime":1653.353,"body":"Like we're understanding the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1650.293,"endTime":1653.353,"body":"broader influences on why people"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1653.353,"endTime":1656.533,"body":"behave as they do, why aren't"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1653.353,"endTime":1656.533,"body":"people using them in sport science."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1656.533,"endTime":1660.573,"body":"And so I wrote a book in 2009"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1656.533,"endTime":1660.573,"body":"- 'Human Factors and Ergonomics"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1660.573,"endTime":1661.893,"body":"Methods in Sports Science'."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1661.983,"endTime":1665.343,"body":"Nobody bought it, unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1661.983,"endTime":1665.343,"body":"but I was always thinking like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1665.343,"endTime":1668.293,"body":"And I think I was always looking"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1665.343,"endTime":1668.293,"body":"to connect with people, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1668.293,"endTime":1669.753,"body":"I had too much work going on."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1669.753,"endTime":1673.293,"body":"And then when I met Scott, he was"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1669.753,"endTime":1673.293,"body":"kind of the first person who I'd"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1673.563,"endTime":1675.513,"body":"connected with who understood sport."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1675.783,"endTime":1678.753,"body":"So I had somebody who understood"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1675.783,"endTime":1678.753,"body":"sport who could actually help"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1678.753,"endTime":1681.993,"body":"me, rather than me just trying to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1678.753,"endTime":1681.993,"body":"understand sport from a different"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1682.173,"endTime":1683.403,"body":"discipline, if you see what I mean."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1683.613,"endTime":1685.563,"body":"And I think from there"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1683.613,"endTime":1685.563,"body":"it's just skyrocketed."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1685.593,"endTime":1689.788,"body":"We've just been able to kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1685.593,"endTime":1689.788,"body":"use methods and theories from"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1689.788,"endTime":1692.938,"body":"complexity science that are used for"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1689.788,"endTime":1692.938,"body":"other purposes, but we can really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1692.938,"endTime":1696.488,"body":"see that they have real power in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1692.938,"endTime":1696.488,"body":"applying them into sports science."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1696.508,"endTime":1699.178,"body":"So I think it's a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1696.508,"endTime":1699.178,"body":"meeting of minds between the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1699.178,"endTime":1701.548,"body":"two of us in 2016, I think."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1701.778,"endTime":1704.478,"body":"And Paul always claims"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1701.778,"endTime":1704.478,"body":"that, cause you know the pioneer"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1704.508,"endTime":1706.998,"body":"Tom Riley was an ergonomist as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1707.268,"endTime":1709.598,"body":"So Paul thinks there's something"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1707.268,"endTime":1709.598,"body":"in being an ergonomist and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1709.618,"endTime":1710.938,"body":"then going into sports science."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1710.938,"endTime":1711.388,"body":"That's it, that's it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1713.188,"endTime":1717.478,"body":"In all seriousness, it"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1713.188,"endTime":1717.478,"body":"does seem like there is a relationship"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1717.533,"endTime":1721.823,"body":"between generalists, or people with"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1717.533,"endTime":1721.823,"body":"multidisciplinary backgrounds, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1721.823,"endTime":1723.183,"body":"finding their way to this space."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1723.183,"endTime":1724.883,"body":"There's no question in my mind about that."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1725.363,"endTime":1729.623,"body":"Which does beg the question then,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1725.363,"endTime":1729.623,"body":"how do we ensure that these people"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1729.623,"endTime":1732.323,"body":"with these viewpoints or with"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1729.623,"endTime":1732.323,"body":"this way of thinking are making"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1732.323,"endTime":1734.453,"body":"their way into academia and sport?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1734.453,"endTime":1737.213,"body":"And I don't have all the answers there,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1734.453,"endTime":1737.213,"body":"and I know we're not going to solve the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1737.483,"endTime":1741.653,"body":"problems of sports science accreditation"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1737.483,"endTime":1741.653,"body":"in Australia, or indeed the world,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1741.653,"endTime":1743.258,"body":"but do you have any thoughts on that?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1743.258,"endTime":1747.728,"body":"I mean, is it as simple as ensuring"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1743.258,"endTime":1747.728,"body":"we're providing platforms such as this or"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1747.758,"endTime":1749.348,"body":"conferences for people to come together?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1749.358,"endTime":1754.238,"body":"I know there's a complex systems in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1749.358,"endTime":1754.238,"body":"sport conference due in September in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1754.238,"endTime":1757.778,"body":"Germany, which unfortunately won't be"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1754.238,"endTime":1757.778,"body":"taking place in person obviously, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1758.048,"endTime":1761.108,"body":"even that is a sign, and that's not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1758.048,"endTime":1761.108,"body":"a new conference, but even that is a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1761.108,"endTime":1765.548,"body":"sign that there's opportunities now"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1761.108,"endTime":1765.548,"body":"for us to get together in this area."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1765.868,"endTime":1766.618,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1766.678,"endTime":1767.608,"body":"This conference is great."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1767.608,"endTime":1772.228,"body":"I think a lot of the time I find that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1767.608,"endTime":1772.228,"body":"I do my reading and stuff, and watching"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1772.228,"endTime":1776.488,"body":"these sort of webinars and conferences,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1772.228,"endTime":1776.488,"body":"is that the complexity they talk about"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1776.488,"endTime":1777.898,"body":"is quite different to the work we do."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1777.898,"endTime":1781.521,"body":"So, I mean, we look at systems"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1777.898,"endTime":1781.521,"body":"complexity within that higher level."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1781.521,"endTime":1785.631,"body":"So the club, the organsiation, so the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1781.521,"endTime":1785.631,"body":"football association, for example."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1785.631,"endTime":1789.081,"body":"But I think there's a lot of complexity"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1785.631,"endTime":1789.081,"body":"stuff that is still at that individual"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1789.081,"endTime":1794.141,"body":"level, which I'm not saying is bad, it's"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1789.081,"endTime":1794.141,"body":"fine, and then dyads and triads and all"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1794.141,"endTime":1795.611,"body":"that types of things in team sports."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1795.821,"endTime":1799.271,"body":"And like we mentioned earlier, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1795.821,"endTime":1799.271,"body":"having that broader perspective of how"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1799.271,"endTime":1803.421,"body":"the overall system, like that societal"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1799.271,"endTime":1803.421,"body":"system, impacts performance, for me,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1803.421,"endTime":1807.111,"body":"I think has got much more, you're able"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1803.421,"endTime":1807.111,"body":"to just draw a lot more from that I"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1807.111,"endTime":1810.971,"body":"think then at that individual level,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1807.111,"endTime":1810.971,"body":"or that sort of sub-individual level."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1811.476,"endTime":1813.786,"body":"I think there's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1811.476,"endTime":1813.786,"body":"something interesting about how"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1813.816,"endTime":1818.226,"body":"open and how embracing sports"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1813.816,"endTime":1818.226,"body":"science is to other perspectives."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1818.226,"endTime":1823.071,"body":"I think some of the earlier work that I"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1818.226,"endTime":1823.071,"body":"was certainly involved in, I kind of felt"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1823.071,"endTime":1827.551,"body":"this reticence, and I'm talking academic"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1823.071,"endTime":1827.551,"body":"journals here I think I should clarify,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1827.941,"endTime":1832.291,"body":"there's a kind of reticence to publish"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1827.941,"endTime":1832.291,"body":"work from other areas that was using"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1832.291,"endTime":1835.921,"body":"other methods that weren't recognised"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1832.291,"endTime":1835.921,"body":"as the sport science type approach."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1836.161,"endTime":1840.601,"body":"And I think actually working with Scott"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1836.161,"endTime":1840.601,"body":"and another guy who's core supervisor, Dr."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1840.601,"endTime":1845.131,"body":"Colin Solomon, I think they really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1840.601,"endTime":1845.131,"body":"taught me that you have to write"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1845.131,"endTime":1848.461,"body":"in a certain way to get published"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1845.131,"endTime":1848.461,"body":"in sports science journals and you"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1848.461,"endTime":1851.431,"body":"have to acknowledge a certain set"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1848.461,"endTime":1851.431,"body":"of literature and things like that."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1851.791,"endTime":1856.051,"body":"So I think there could be perhaps"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1851.791,"endTime":1856.051,"body":"something around how open the discipline"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1856.051,"endTime":1859.761,"body":"is to other perspectives and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1856.051,"endTime":1859.761,"body":"certainly in my discipline, which is human"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1859.761,"endTime":1863.956,"body":"factors and ergonomics, it's actually seen"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1859.761,"endTime":1863.956,"body":"as a really good thing to actually bring"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1863.956,"endTime":1867.316,"body":"in other perspectives, and the journals"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1863.956,"endTime":1867.316,"body":"certainly are very excited about that."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1867.316,"endTime":1870.256,"body":"They potentially see that as"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1867.316,"endTime":1870.256,"body":"more publishable and interesting"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1870.256,"endTime":1871.426,"body":"than the old kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1871.666,"endTime":1872.916,"body":"Is that the case in sports science?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":1872.936,"endTime":1873.616,"body":"I'm not sure."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1874.206,"endTime":1879.426,"body":"Moving on, I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1874.206,"endTime":1879.426,"body":"talk about some applications that either"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1879.426,"endTime":1883.866,"body":"you've had success with now, you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1879.426,"endTime":1883.866,"body":"injury, you mentioned already the design"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1883.866,"endTime":1887.746,"body":"of high-performance teams, which is a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1883.866,"endTime":1887.746,"body":"topic we've covered on this show as well."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1888.166,"endTime":1891.001,"body":"What do you see as the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1888.166,"endTime":1891.001,"body":"next big area to impact on?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1891.031,"endTime":1892.891,"body":"Or is it continuing to be those areas?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1893.041,"endTime":1895.651,"body":"I guess that's one part of the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1893.041,"endTime":1895.651,"body":"question, but what's going to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1895.651,"endTime":1896.961,"body":"need this area more than others?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1897.391,"endTime":1900.661,"body":"Scott, your example then about"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1897.391,"endTime":1900.661,"body":"the big picture of sport, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1900.661,"endTime":1904.261,"body":"socio-cultural influences, looking"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1900.661,"endTime":1904.261,"body":"at it from a very high level, that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1904.261,"endTime":1907.001,"body":"always going to be of importance"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1904.261,"endTime":1907.001,"body":"to the organisation, the general"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1907.021,"endTime":1908.941,"body":"manager, to truly capture that state."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1909.001,"endTime":1912.691,"body":"And of course, the other example you"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1909.001,"endTime":1912.691,"body":"gave that the practitioner at times may"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1912.691,"endTime":1917.011,"body":"need to look at coordinative behaviours"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1912.691,"endTime":1917.011,"body":"between limbs on athletes, and it's very"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1917.011,"endTime":1918.931,"body":"much more down at that individual level."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1919.411,"endTime":1923.321,"body":"So, very broad question I know, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1919.411,"endTime":1923.321,"body":"where's the real opportunities coming"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1923.321,"endTime":1925.901,"body":"from, considering all the things"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":1923.321,"endTime":1925.901,"body":"we've spoken about already today?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1926.221,"endTime":1927.991,"body":"For me, and the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1926.221,"endTime":1927.991,"body":"one that we're going to tackle"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1927.991,"endTime":1929.761,"body":"next is, doping in sport."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1930.031,"endTime":1933.811,"body":"So we're about to undertake a project"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1930.031,"endTime":1933.811,"body":"funded by WADA on the systemic"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1933.811,"endTime":1935.731,"body":"influences of doping on athletes."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1936.541,"endTime":1938.921,"body":"And athletes, and we've already"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1936.541,"endTime":1938.921,"body":"talked about this today, but"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1939.161,"endTime":1943.211,"body":"athletes don't perform or don't"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1939.161,"endTime":1943.211,"body":"operate in this societal vacuum."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1943.241,"endTime":1945.521,"body":"They have all of these"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1943.241,"endTime":1945.521,"body":"external things going on."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1946.008,"endTime":1948.198,"body":"Our argument and the theory that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1946.008,"endTime":1948.198,"body":"we're going to use and Paul mentioned"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1948.198,"endTime":1951.108,"body":"before, it's called STAMP, which"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1948.198,"endTime":1951.108,"body":"looks at the controls across"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1951.108,"endTime":1952.518,"body":"all of the levels of the system."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1952.878,"endTime":1957.191,"body":"So we're going to hopefully demonstrate"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1952.878,"endTime":1957.191,"body":"that you can't just blame an athlete for"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1957.191,"endTime":1961.451,"body":"doping, or the coach for providing them"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1957.191,"endTime":1961.451,"body":"with a substance, there's failures across"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1961.451,"endTime":1965.081,"body":"the entire system and all the actors in"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1961.451,"endTime":1965.081,"body":"the system, and that's coming from WADA,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1965.501,"endTime":1970.871,"body":"down to governments in Australia to, say,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1965.501,"endTime":1970.871,"body":"Athletics Australia or Football Federation"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1970.871,"endTime":1974.411,"body":"Australia, there's failures at all those"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1970.871,"endTime":1974.411,"body":"levels until it gets down to the athlete."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1974.411,"endTime":1978.411,"body":"And hopefully we're going to be able to"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1974.411,"endTime":1978.411,"body":"provide some recommendations to stop that."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1978.621,"endTime":1981.651,"body":"And also the other big one, and Paul"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1978.621,"endTime":1981.651,"body":"might want to talk about this a bit more,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1981.651,"endTime":1985.161,"body":"is that the sexual abuses in sports or"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1981.651,"endTime":1985.161,"body":"some of these real big issue topics."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1985.491,"endTime":1988.461,"body":"I think racism in sport can"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1985.491,"endTime":1988.461,"body":"be tackled from a systemic"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1988.461,"endTime":1989.781,"body":"level that we sort of look at."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1990.201,"endTime":1994.851,"body":"And then there's the impending doom of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1990.201,"endTime":1994.851,"body":"artificial intelligence on sport, where"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1994.851,"endTime":1999.011,"body":"we just recently wrote a commentary"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1994.851,"endTime":1999.011,"body":"around how advanced AI, the influence"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1999.011,"endTime":2001.681,"body":"it's going to have on football, that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":1999.011,"endTime":2001.681,"body":"might even change football to be"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2001.681,"endTime":2003.871,"body":"unrecognisable to what we know it today."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2003.871,"endTime":2007.441,"body":"So there's some of the bigger"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2003.871,"endTime":2007.441,"body":"issues that we're about to tackle."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2007.844,"endTime":2011.024,"body":"Yeah and I think all those"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2007.844,"endTime":2011.024,"body":"areas that Scott's mentioned are very"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2011.024,"endTime":2014.744,"body":"interesting to us, and we'll certainly"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2011.024,"endTime":2014.744,"body":"be applying methods to try and understand"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2014.744,"endTime":2016.514,"body":"and prevent some of those issues."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2016.784,"endTime":2019.544,"body":"I think for me, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2016.784,"endTime":2019.544,"body":"money where your mouth is time,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2019.574,"endTime":2020.984,"body":"for complexity in sports science."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2020.984,"endTime":2024.381,"body":"So what I'm really keen to do is,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2020.984,"endTime":2024.381,"body":"which you touched on, is to kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2024.381,"endTime":2027.981,"body":"of do some of the modeling that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2024.381,"endTime":2027.981,"body":"really teases out these broader"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2027.981,"endTime":2029.631,"body":"systemic influences on performance."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2029.777,"endTime":2033.597,"body":"We published a paper recently where"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2029.777,"endTime":2033.597,"body":"we showed how you could take a complex"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2033.597,"endTime":2037.617,"body":"systems approach at a football match"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2033.597,"endTime":2037.617,"body":"level, you can do it at a football club"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2037.617,"endTime":2041.097,"body":"level, you can do it at a football league"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2037.617,"endTime":2041.097,"body":"level, but I guess I'm interested in even"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2041.097,"endTime":2045.557,"body":"broader, in as you mentioned, the societal"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2041.097,"endTime":2045.557,"body":"level and what those factors are that kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2045.557,"endTime":2048.017,"body":"of influence game performance effectively."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2048.017,"endTime":2051.197,"body":"So I think there's modeling work to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2048.017,"endTime":2051.197,"body":"be done there, and I think then what"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2051.197,"endTime":2053.907,"body":"I'm really interested in is, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2051.197,"endTime":2053.907,"body":"we haven't really touched on this"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2053.907,"endTime":2057.077,"body":"yet, but the Donella Meadows kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2053.907,"endTime":2057.077,"body":"view that there are leverage points"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2057.077,"endTime":2061.037,"body":"in systems where minor changes can"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2057.077,"endTime":2061.037,"body":"have dramatic effects on behaviour."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2061.107,"endTime":2064.667,"body":"And the really interesting thing is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2061.107,"endTime":2064.667,"body":"nobody's really looked at where these"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2064.667,"endTime":2066.317,"body":"leverage points are within sport."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2066.557,"endTime":2070.017,"body":"And so for me, there's a big challenge"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2066.557,"endTime":2070.017,"body":"there to actually say, well let's model"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2070.037,"endTime":2074.237,"body":"bigger, broader sports systems, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2070.037,"endTime":2074.237,"body":"then what are these leverage points?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2074.267,"endTime":2076.787,"body":"Are all of the leverage points"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2074.267,"endTime":2076.787,"body":"within a football club to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2076.787,"endTime":2077.927,"body":"improve football performance?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2077.927,"endTime":2081.377,"body":"Probably not, but I think, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2077.927,"endTime":2081.377,"body":"it's money where our mouth is time"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2081.377,"endTime":2084.257,"body":"because we have to actually explain"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2081.377,"endTime":2084.257,"body":"what these leverage points are, where"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2084.257,"endTime":2085.817,"body":"they exist and how we can pull them."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2085.977,"endTime":2089.327,"body":"And I think that's very challenging,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2085.977,"endTime":2089.327,"body":"really exciting, really interesting work."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2089.327,"endTime":2092.477,"body":"And I think that's what we're trying to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2089.327,"endTime":2092.477,"body":"do basically over the next few years."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2093.242,"endTime":2095.942,"body":"Sounds like you've got"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2093.242,"endTime":2095.942,"body":"a busy time ahead of you both as well"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2095.942,"endTime":2098.942,"body":"as your team, tackling some of the big"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2095.942,"endTime":2098.942,"body":"ones there and that's fantastic, and I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2098.942,"endTime":2102.972,"body":"think if you can have success in those"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2098.942,"endTime":2102.972,"body":"areas, whatever success means, that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2102.972,"endTime":2104.362,"body":"certainly going to help this area."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2104.722,"endTime":2109.192,"body":"And Scott, the interesting point"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2104.722,"endTime":2109.192,"body":"you made then on athlete's not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2109.192,"endTime":2112.042,"body":"existing in a vacuum, and I think"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2109.192,"endTime":2112.042,"body":"that's a great example there."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2112.312,"endTime":2116.927,"body":"I think social media has insights, almost"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2112.312,"endTime":2116.927,"body":"pulled back the curtain on athletes in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2116.927,"endTime":2120.767,"body":"that perspective there and allowed people"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2116.927,"endTime":2120.767,"body":"to realise that they are living in the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2120.767,"endTime":2124.217,"body":"same society as us, so they're facing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2120.767,"endTime":2124.217,"body":"the same challenges a lot of the time."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2124.65,"endTime":2127.86,"body":"I wanted to pick up on that point,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2124.65,"endTime":2127.86,"body":"Paul, around certain elements of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2127.86,"endTime":2132.39,"body":"complexity perhaps not getting"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2127.86,"endTime":2132.39,"body":"picked up yet as well, either in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2132.39,"endTime":2136.44,"body":"popular culture or in the research"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2132.39,"endTime":2136.44,"body":"full-stop or in the sports research."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2136.83,"endTime":2139.62,"body":"And you mentioned the notion of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2136.83,"endTime":2139.62,"body":"levers and hubs being one of them."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2139.77,"endTime":2144.927,"body":"I wonder whether there's others that are"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2139.77,"endTime":2144.927,"body":"not getting prioriti sed, either because"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2144.943,"endTime":2147.613,"body":"they're just not getting prioritised"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2144.943,"endTime":2147.613,"body":"or they're not as well understood."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2148.468,"endTime":2152.728,"body":"I think in my own experience, one of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2148.468,"endTime":2152.728,"body":"the frustrating elements of complexity"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2152.728,"endTime":2156.388,"body":"or a complex system that isn't"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2152.728,"endTime":2156.388,"body":"well-recognised in general terms is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2156.478,"endTime":2158.248,"body":"a simple notion of change over time."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2158.368,"endTime":2164.053,"body":"I think sport makes a lot of decisions"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2158.368,"endTime":2164.053,"body":"for the short term and sometimes that's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2164.053,"endTime":2165.973,"body":"well justified and other times it's not."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2165.973,"endTime":2169.153,"body":"I mean, it's actually a debatable"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2165.973,"endTime":2169.153,"body":"question about what success looks"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2169.153,"endTime":2170.953,"body":"like for organisations in sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2170.983,"endTime":2175.513,"body":"Is one championship win followed"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2170.983,"endTime":2175.513,"body":"by 10 years of horror a success?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2176.173,"endTime":2178.933,"body":"I mean, it's actually a philosophical"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2176.173,"endTime":2178.933,"body":"question in and of itself."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2179.568,"endTime":2180.618,"body":"Do you have a comment on that?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2180.618,"endTime":2183.408,"body":"I mean, that's one for me that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2180.618,"endTime":2183.408,"body":"I find is really overlooked."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2183.848,"endTime":2185.318,"body":"No, I think I totally agree."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2185.318,"endTime":2187.328,"body":"I think there are other"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2185.318,"endTime":2187.328,"body":"things that are overlooked."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2187.328,"endTime":2188.588,"body":"That is one thing that's overlooked."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2188.722,"endTime":2192.202,"body":"I think that whole, like what you"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2188.722,"endTime":2192.202,"body":"mentioned about success and one"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2192.232,"endTime":2195.202,"body":"period of success followed by a"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2192.232,"endTime":2195.202,"body":"period of non-success is really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2195.202,"endTime":2197.122,"body":"interesting in its complex systems."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2197.122,"endTime":2200.032,"body":"It's a system behaving in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2197.122,"endTime":2200.032,"body":"a certain way, the system"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2200.032,"endTime":2201.592,"body":"responding, and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2201.592,"endTime":2204.542,"body":"So I think that aspect of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2201.592,"endTime":2204.542,"body":"behaviour over time's interesting."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2204.562,"endTime":2209.052,"body":"Another one I'm really interested in is"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2204.562,"endTime":2209.052,"body":"feedback mechanisms, which again is very"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2209.052,"endTime":2214.392,"body":"simple, but it's a key kind of tenant of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2209.052,"endTime":2214.392,"body":"systems thinking, complexity, but we know"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2214.392,"endTime":2217.662,"body":"that in most sports systems the feedback"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2214.392,"endTime":2217.662,"body":"mechanisms are not particularly great."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2217.662,"endTime":2221.062,"body":"And the most obvious example"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2217.662,"endTime":2221.062,"body":"is injury reporting systems."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2221.182,"endTime":2224.622,"body":"How do you gather data around"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2221.182,"endTime":2224.622,"body":"injuries, aggregate that data,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2224.622,"endTime":2225.972,"body":"identify trends and so on."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2226.165,"endTime":2230.275,"body":"We've been, I think, quite surprised where"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2226.165,"endTime":2230.275,"body":"there'll be sports systems that just don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2230.275,"endTime":2232.345,"body":"have them at this kind of system level."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2232.495,"endTime":2235.225,"body":"So I think there are all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2232.495,"endTime":2235.225,"body":"different aspects that have not"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2235.225,"endTime":2239.655,"body":"received attention, can be very powerful"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2235.225,"endTime":2239.655,"body":"if we do some good research around"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2239.655,"endTime":2240.945,"body":"them and start to tease them out."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2240.945,"endTime":2243.975,"body":"So I think, you know, the future"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2240.945,"endTime":2243.975,"body":"is certainly bright for this"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2243.975,"endTime":2245.505,"body":"as a research area in sport."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2245.535,"endTime":2246.595,"body":"Definitely, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2247.175,"endTime":2250.265,"body":"Yeah the example that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2247.175,"endTime":2250.265,"body":"comes to mind from my experience working"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2250.265,"endTime":2252.185,"body":"in sport there is around training design."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2252.185,"endTime":2255.215,"body":"When you talk about feedback, I think"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2252.185,"endTime":2255.215,"body":"I'm probably considering the word"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2255.215,"endTime":2259.895,"body":"evaluation as well, but yeah, when we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2255.215,"endTime":2259.895,"body":"talk about feedback, I think we do a"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2259.895,"endTime":2264.305,"body":"reasonable job at looking at how the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2259.895,"endTime":2264.305,"body":"athlete responded, but evaluating whether"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2264.305,"endTime":2269.25,"body":"a session or a training or a practice"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2264.305,"endTime":2269.25,"body":"session actually went how it was planned,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2269.34,"endTime":2272.87,"body":"for example, and reevaluating it and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2269.34,"endTime":2272.87,"body":"refining it from there is something"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2272.87,"endTime":2276.29,"body":"that's absent a lot more than I perhaps"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2272.87,"endTime":2276.29,"body":"thought it might be, in some sports."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2276.71,"endTime":2279.98,"body":"Coming back to the notion of tools,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2276.71,"endTime":2279.98,"body":"and you gave some examples in the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2279.98,"endTime":2284.99,"body":"last response about practical tools"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2279.98,"endTime":2284.99,"body":"that you've used in sport, or you will"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2284.99,"endTime":2286.82,"body":"use in sport, for different problems."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2287.12,"endTime":2291.92,"body":"An issue that I've grappled with in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2287.12,"endTime":2291.92,"body":"my own research is the notion of when"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2291.95,"endTime":2295.79,"body":"you make something so simple, whether"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2291.95,"endTime":2295.79,"body":"it's a tool or a report or anything."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2296.12,"endTime":2300.08,"body":"that it actually ceases to capture"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2296.12,"endTime":2300.08,"body":"the complexity in that system."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2300.17,"endTime":2301.88,"body":"And this is a very"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2300.17,"endTime":2301.88,"body":"tricky question I think."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2301.91,"endTime":2304.58,"body":"It's essentially, by dumbing"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2301.91,"endTime":2304.58,"body":"something down, which is essentially"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2304.58,"endTime":2307.85,"body":"what we're doing, do we cease to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2304.58,"endTime":2307.85,"body":"actually capture its true state?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2308.21,"endTime":2312.45,"body":"So the example might be, if we want"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2308.21,"endTime":2312.45,"body":"to characterise the key reasons"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2312.45,"endTime":2317.39,"body":"as why an athlete has transitioned"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2312.45,"endTime":2317.39,"body":"from an eight year old taking up the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2317.39,"endTime":2320.62,"body":"sport for the first time through to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2317.39,"endTime":2320.62,"body":"becoming a world-class performer."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2321.195,"endTime":2325.545,"body":"The small, seemingly meaningless"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2321.195,"endTime":2325.545,"body":"occurrences along that journey,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2325.545,"endTime":2328.425,"body":"if we remove them from the story,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2325.545,"endTime":2328.425,"body":"do they end up in that same place?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2328.755,"endTime":2332.445,"body":"Do they end up being a world"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2328.755,"endTime":2332.445,"body":"champion or a high-level performer?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2332.925,"endTime":2335.848,"body":"And I guess to provide another example"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2332.925,"endTime":2335.848,"body":"that's actually from my own work and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2335.848,"endTime":2340.213,"body":"research, if we look at the example"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2335.848,"endTime":2340.213,"body":"of skill, which is an interest of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2340.213,"endTime":2343.513,"body":"mine, let's look at the example"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2340.213,"endTime":2343.513,"body":"about how an athlete passes or shoots"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2343.513,"endTime":2345.403,"body":"or kicks the ball in a team sport."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2345.613,"endTime":2350.153,"body":"We know that things like the pressure"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2345.613,"endTime":2350.153,"body":"they're under, their fatigue, the number"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2350.173,"endTime":2353.353,"body":"of passing options they have available,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2350.173,"endTime":2353.353,"body":"the time they have, these are all"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2353.353,"endTime":2357.343,"body":"things that are really important, and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2353.353,"endTime":2357.343,"body":"to characterise those and to provide"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2357.343,"endTime":2361.123,"body":"a report into the insights or the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2357.343,"endTime":2361.123,"body":"influence they have on that performer"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2361.273,"endTime":2364.213,"body":"is pretty easy to do, and we can even"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2361.273,"endTime":2364.213,"body":"look at the relationships between them."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2364.213,"endTime":2368.983,"body":"But the point is, there's an everlasting,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2364.213,"endTime":2368.983,"body":"an endless laundry list of other"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2368.983,"endTime":2372.553,"body":"things that are somewhat influential,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2368.983,"endTime":2372.553,"body":"maybe not as influential, but if we"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2372.553,"endTime":2376.903,"body":"look at a team sport kicking example,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2372.553,"endTime":2376.903,"body":"the wind, the surface, the rain, the"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2376.903,"endTime":2378.193,"body":"weather, did they sleep properly?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2378.193,"endTime":2379.093,"body":"All these things matter."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2379.303,"endTime":2382.853,"body":"How deep do we have to go before"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2379.303,"endTime":2382.853,"body":"it ceases to capture the state?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2383.068,"endTime":2384.478,"body":"I don't know if there's an"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2383.068,"endTime":2384.478,"body":"answer to this question."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2384.478,"endTime":2385.198,"body":"It's a tricky one."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2385.438,"endTime":2385.778,"body":"For me."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2385.778,"endTime":2388.068,"body":"I think it's about"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2385.778,"endTime":2388.068,"body":"defining the boundaries."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2388.248,"endTime":2391.308,"body":"And I was listening to one of the earlier"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2388.248,"endTime":2391.308,"body":"episodes and one of the other guests"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2391.308,"endTime":2394.998,"body":"was talking about, you know, a cell is"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2391.308,"endTime":2394.998,"body":"a complex system, an individual is, a"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2394.998,"endTime":2397.428,"body":"team is, an organisation is, and so on."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2397.968,"endTime":2403.158,"body":"I think if you can identify what the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2397.968,"endTime":2403.158,"body":"boundary is as the limit to what you're"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2403.158,"endTime":2406.038,"body":"trying to look at, otherwise, like"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2403.158,"endTime":2406.038,"body":"you say, there's people out there that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2406.038,"endTime":2409.198,"body":"think you need to go all the way back"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2406.038,"endTime":2409.198,"body":"to the big bang to understand all of the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2409.198,"endTime":2410.928,"body":"systemic influences of how we got here."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2410.928,"endTime":2414.733,"body":"But I think when you're trying to,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2410.928,"endTime":2414.733,"body":"we do it in there in our research"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2414.733,"endTime":2418.323,"body":"centre, we'll explicitly state in our"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2414.733,"endTime":2418.323,"body":"methods sections that the boundary"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2418.343,"endTime":2420.083,"body":"of this analysis was X, Y, Z."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2420.293,"endTime":2422.153,"body":"But I think it would be the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2420.293,"endTime":2422.153,"body":"same for coaching as well."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2422.423,"endTime":2425.693,"body":"Make clear boundaries of what you're"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2422.423,"endTime":2425.693,"body":"trying to achieve and then don't try"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2425.693,"endTime":2428.243,"body":"and look too far outside of those"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2425.693,"endTime":2428.243,"body":"boundaries or stay within those"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2428.243,"endTime":2429.873,"body":"boundaries, would be my advice there."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2430.293,"endTime":2433.263,"body":"Yeah, I think to add to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2430.293,"endTime":2433.263,"body":"that, I'm a firm believer really that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2433.353,"endTime":2437.493,"body":"the best approach is to really embrace"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2433.353,"endTime":2437.493,"body":"complexity, and you know, the second"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2437.493,"endTime":2442.413,"body":"that you try and reduce complexity"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2437.493,"endTime":2442.413,"body":"down to a set of manageable variables"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2442.413,"endTime":2446.223,"body":"or factors, the second you do that,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2442.413,"endTime":2446.223,"body":"you're no longer considering complexity."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2446.223,"endTime":2449.673,"body":"So I think it's definitely important"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2446.223,"endTime":2449.673,"body":"not to try and reduce things down."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2449.873,"endTime":2453.053,"body":"Safety again is a good example about"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2449.873,"endTime":2453.053,"body":"the fallacy of the root causes."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2453.823,"endTime":2456.943,"body":"It's been shown quite clearly that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2453.823,"endTime":2456.943,"body":"there's really no such thing as a root"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2456.943,"endTime":2459.873,"body":"cause when you're looking at accident"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2456.943,"endTime":2459.873,"body":"causation, for example, and I firmly"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2459.873,"endTime":2461.803,"body":"believe the same is in sports performance."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2462.313,"endTime":2466.033,"body":"And so I think you have a boundary"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2462.313,"endTime":2466.033,"body":"and you should be modeling everything"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2466.033,"endTime":2467.803,"body":"within that boundary as far as you can."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2468.223,"endTime":2471.073,"body":"I think the big challenge though,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2468.223,"endTime":2471.073,"body":"and again, this is more research for"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2471.073,"endTime":2475.363,"body":"us to do, and a really big challenge"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2471.073,"endTime":2475.363,"body":"is we need to start weighting"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2475.363,"endTime":2477.073,"body":"those interactions between things."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2477.073,"endTime":2480.063,"body":"So we need to start to understand,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2477.073,"endTime":2480.063,"body":"and I've mentioned leverage points,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2480.533,"endTime":2484.913,"body":"which out of those 27 factors that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2480.533,"endTime":2484.913,"body":"influence behaviour, which are the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2484.913,"endTime":2487.523,"body":"really strong leverage points that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2484.913,"endTime":2487.523,"body":"you pull that can actually have"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2487.523,"endTime":2489.123,"body":"a massive effect on behaviour."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2489.143,"endTime":2491.333,"body":"And I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2489.143,"endTime":2491.333,"body":"challenge for the science."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2491.573,"endTime":2494.423,"body":"There are methods that try and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2491.573,"endTime":2494.423,"body":"do that with things like system"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2494.423,"endTime":2497.693,"body":"dynamics modelling, agent-based"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2494.423,"endTime":2497.693,"body":"modelling, but yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2497.723,"endTime":2498.773,"body":"there's a big challenge around that."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2498.773,"endTime":2502.683,"body":"And certainly we've been wrestling with"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2498.773,"endTime":2502.683,"body":"that in our models about, well, yeah"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2502.683,"endTime":2507.203,"body":"look we understand that there's 75 things"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2502.683,"endTime":2507.203,"body":"here that will influence an athlete's"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2507.203,"endTime":2510.563,"body":"performance, but can we weight them in"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2507.203,"endTime":2510.563,"body":"some way to actually tease out which"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2510.563,"endTime":2512.603,"body":"are the most stronger ones to focus on?"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2512.603,"endTime":2516.053,"body":"And of course the bigger problem"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2512.603,"endTime":2516.053,"body":"in translation there is that often"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2516.323,"endTime":2519.833,"body":"going to an organisation and saying"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2516.323,"endTime":2519.833,"body":"this is a very complex problem,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2519.833,"endTime":2523.073,"body":"there's 73 factors that you need to"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2519.833,"endTime":2523.073,"body":"tackle, they can't tackle them all."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2523.073,"endTime":2526.493,"body":"So they need to know where their best"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2523.073,"endTime":2526.493,"body":"investment is made, and I think, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2526.523,"endTime":2528.313,"body":"that's a big challenge for the science."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2528.663,"endTime":2531.443,"body":"I get into trouble from"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2528.663,"endTime":2531.443,"body":"my producer every time I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2531.503,"endTime":2534.563,"body":"the term interdisciplinarity, she"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2531.503,"endTime":2534.563,"body":"tells me to keep editing it out cause"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2534.563,"endTime":2537.973,"body":"we mention it every episode, but I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2534.563,"endTime":2537.973,"body":"think this is a great example of it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2538.183,"endTime":2541.453,"body":"My mind turns to things like Bayesian"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2538.183,"endTime":2541.453,"body":"networks and statistics machine"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2541.453,"endTime":2545.953,"body":"learning as opportunities to build"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2541.453,"endTime":2545.953,"body":"parsimonious models, or models that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2545.953,"endTime":2547.543,"body":"fit and generalise well over time."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2547.543,"endTime":2550.513,"body":"And of course, you know, the more"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2547.543,"endTime":2550.513,"body":"elements we add to a model, the less"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2550.513,"endTime":2552.823,"body":"likely in general terms it is to do that."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2553.163,"endTime":2556.448,"body":"But then again, reporting it back to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2553.163,"endTime":2556.448,"body":"your industry or to the applied area,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2556.448,"endTime":2559.988,"body":"it's elements of cognition there,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2556.448,"endTime":2559.988,"body":"there's psychophysics of visualisation,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2560.008,"endTime":2562.888,"body":"there's all sorts of different fields"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2560.008,"endTime":2562.888,"body":"that can contribute to that and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2563.338,"endTime":2566.098,"body":"that's exciting, but it also means"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2563.338,"endTime":2566.098,"body":"we've better get ourselves together."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2566.098,"endTime":2569.438,"body":"And as you said, Paul, it's put the money"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2566.098,"endTime":2569.438,"body":"where the mouth is time, I think, and got"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2569.458,"endTime":2570.808,"body":"to practice what we preach a little bit."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2571.048,"endTime":2575.128,"body":"Now, before I let you both go, I"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2571.048,"endTime":2575.128,"body":"wanted to finish as I normally do on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2575.188,"endTime":2576.568,"body":"a little bit of a future question."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2576.628,"endTime":2580.273,"body":"We've probably touched on this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2576.628,"endTime":2580.273,"body":"throughout to some extent, but"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2580.273,"endTime":2582.253,"body":"where's the future of this area go?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2582.313,"endTime":2585.823,"body":"You've got some exciting projects"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2582.313,"endTime":2585.823,"body":"in the short term coming up ahead."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2585.853,"endTime":2589.323,"body":"Is it a world where we're breaking"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2585.853,"endTime":2589.323,"body":"down the sport science disciplines"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2589.323,"endTime":2591.803,"body":"and we're not teaching through"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2589.323,"endTime":2591.803,"body":"the lens we're teaching now?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2591.803,"endTime":2594.833,"body":"Is it a reimagination of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2591.803,"endTime":2594.833,"body":"roles in professional codes?"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2594.983,"endTime":2597.543,"body":"Where would you like to see this head"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2594.983,"endTime":2597.543,"body":"and where do you think it might head?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2598.208,"endTime":2602.978,"body":"For me one of the things I"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2598.208,"endTime":2602.978,"body":"think is under-done in sports science or"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2602.978,"endTime":2607.478,"body":"in sport performance is risk assessment,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2602.978,"endTime":2607.478,"body":"like formal and proactive risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2607.658,"endTime":2610.808,"body":"I'm lucky enough to be in Paul's"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2607.658,"endTime":2610.808,"body":"centre, which, you know, we do also"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2610.808,"endTime":2614.918,"body":"research in road safety obviously we've"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2610.808,"endTime":2614.918,"body":"talked about, but also military cyber"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2614.918,"endTime":2617.708,"body":"security, what else would we do, Paul?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2618.158,"endTime":2620.678,"body":"Anyway, so we've got these broad,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2618.158,"endTime":2620.678,"body":"I guess we could call them safety"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2620.678,"endTime":2624.263,"body":"critical domains a lot of them, and"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2620.678,"endTime":2624.263,"body":"within safety critical domains there's"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2624.263,"endTime":2626.333,"body":"this huge focus on risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2626.693,"endTime":2630.577,"body":"I think sport doesn't really value"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2626.693,"endTime":2630.577,"body":"what formal risk assessment is."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2630.847,"endTime":2633.437,"body":"I mean, I've been in video rooms with"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2630.847,"endTime":2633.437,"body":"coaches where they've talked about"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2633.457,"endTime":2636.817,"body":"opposition tactics, and it's like,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2633.457,"endTime":2636.817,"body":"this guy's fast we need to be aware of"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2636.817,"endTime":2638.047,"body":"that, and that's their risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2638.817,"endTime":2640.987,"body":"That's probably about"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2638.817,"endTime":2640.987,"body":"sometimes the depth it goes to."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2641.287,"endTime":2643.657,"body":"Obviously you will get coaches"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2641.287,"endTime":2643.657,"body":"that'll go to more depth, but, you"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2643.657,"endTime":2646.527,"body":"know I don't like to pump his tires"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2643.657,"endTime":2646.527,"body":"up too much, but Paul was one of the"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2646.527,"endTime":2649.677,"body":"world's leading risk assessors in"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2646.527,"endTime":2649.677,"body":"the work that he's done across all"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2649.677,"endTime":2650.847,"body":"of these safety critical domains."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2651.532,"endTime":2654.832,"body":"Yeah, like I said, I'm fortunate to be in"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2651.532,"endTime":2654.832,"body":"this research centre where I can just sort"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2654.832,"endTime":2657.892,"body":"of listen and learn from all these others,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2654.832,"endTime":2657.892,"body":"what they're doing in these other domains,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2657.892,"endTime":2661.162,"body":"and I can think, well, that would work"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2657.892,"endTime":2661.162,"body":"in sport, or why aren't we doing this?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2661.162,"endTime":2664.462,"body":"And some things that come to mind,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2661.162,"endTime":2664.462,"body":"transfers at football clubs, how"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2664.462,"endTime":2665.602,"body":"often do we see them go wrong?"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2665.602,"endTime":2668.722,"body":"And they would look at the surface"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2665.602,"endTime":2668.722,"body":"risks, but I don't think they would"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2668.722,"endTime":2672.892,"body":"be delving into the sort of risks that"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2668.722,"endTime":2672.892,"body":"would happen, you know, in a formal"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2673.072,"endTime":2675.862,"body":"risk assessment that would happen"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2673.072,"endTime":2675.862,"body":"in say a safety critical domain."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2676.132,"endTime":2680.222,"body":"So that's one thing where I think sport"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2676.132,"endTime":2680.222,"body":"performance can really advance itself."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2680.787,"endTime":2683.417,"body":"I mean, what I would like"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2680.787,"endTime":2683.417,"body":"to see, and I guess there's a difference"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2683.417,"endTime":2686.287,"body":"between what I would like to see and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2683.417,"endTime":2686.287,"body":"what is actually gonna be happening,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2686.287,"endTime":2691.382,"body":"but I think it would be really great"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2686.287,"endTime":2691.382,"body":"if we saw some way of having much more"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2691.382,"endTime":2695.852,"body":"transdisciplinary research programs,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2691.382,"endTime":2695.852,"body":"where you have these different thinkers"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2695.852,"endTime":2697.862,"body":"all connected on sports science issues."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2697.862,"endTime":2700.952,"body":"And a big challenge we have, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2697.862,"endTime":2700.952,"body":"something I'm really excited about"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2700.952,"endTime":2704.642,"body":"in our research, is yes the systems"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2700.952,"endTime":2704.642,"body":"thinking and, you know, we think big"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2704.642,"endTime":2708.572,"body":"and we think about all this other stuff,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2704.642,"endTime":2708.572,"body":"but that doesn't mean the kind of sharp"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2708.572,"endTime":2710.492,"body":"and reductionist stuff is useless."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2710.492,"endTime":2714.032,"body":"And actually, surely it's more"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2710.492,"endTime":2714.032,"body":"powerful if that's all integrated."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2714.302,"endTime":2717.892,"body":"So I think there's a real interesting"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2714.302,"endTime":2717.892,"body":"dimension there where we can see really"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2718.442,"endTime":2721.412,"body":"transdisciplinary research teams on"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2718.442,"endTime":2721.412,"body":"sports science problems, where you"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2721.412,"endTime":2724.172,"body":"have all of these different thinkers"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2721.412,"endTime":2724.172,"body":"working together rather than as a"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2724.172,"endTime":2727.742,"body":"kind of 'we're better than you' or"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2724.172,"endTime":2727.742,"body":"'we know more than you' type approach."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2727.742,"endTime":2729.842,"body":"So I think that's one thing"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2727.742,"endTime":2729.842,"body":"I'd like to see, and I'm not"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2729.842,"endTime":2731.822,"body":"sure how that's facilitated."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2732.122,"endTime":2735.302,"body":"I think the other is what I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2732.122,"endTime":2735.302,"body":"a bit earlier, is around evidence."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2735.402,"endTime":2740.402,"body":"We need to be developing rigorous research"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2735.402,"endTime":2740.402,"body":"programs that clearly communicate the"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2740.402,"endTime":2742.622,"body":"benefits of a complex systems approach."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2742.862,"endTime":2745.862,"body":"And again, that's very challenging,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2742.862,"endTime":2745.862,"body":"but I think that's needed."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2745.892,"endTime":2748.292,"body":"And so I think a very"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2745.892,"endTime":2748.292,"body":"exciting research area there."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2748.622,"endTime":2751.502,"body":"And then the final thing, in the kind"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2748.622,"endTime":2751.502,"body":"of longer term, wouldn't it be great if"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2751.542,"endTime":2756.312,"body":"sports organisations had a complexity"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2751.542,"endTime":2756.312,"body":"scientist or a systems thinker within"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2756.762,"endTime":2760.692,"body":"their own teams, you know, that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2756.762,"endTime":2760.692,"body":"driving this kind of work at the coalface,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2760.692,"endTime":2762.732,"body":"and that would be extremely exciting."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2762.732,"endTime":2763.812,"body":"A long way away, of course."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2763.812,"endTime":2767.422,"body":"But I think the things around"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2763.812,"endTime":2767.422,"body":"evidence and actually demonstrating"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2767.422,"endTime":2770.002,"body":"the benefits is one of the things"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2767.422,"endTime":2770.002,"body":"that needs to happen to get to that."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2770.352,"endTime":2772.392,"body":"I think they're"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2770.352,"endTime":2772.392,"body":"all great suggestions from both"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2772.392,"endTime":2774.852,"body":"of you and I'd be happy to see"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2772.392,"endTime":2774.852,"body":"some of those come to fruition."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2775.092,"endTime":2778.182,"body":"And Paul, you've even gone one better"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2775.092,"endTime":2778.182,"body":"than interdisciplinarity there,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2778.182,"endTime":2779.532,"body":"you've gone to transdisciplinarity."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2779.532,"endTime":2782.532,"body":"So you take the award for"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2779.532,"endTime":2782.532,"body":"this particular episode."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2782.532,"endTime":2786.282,"body":"But thank you both for joining me on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2782.532,"endTime":2786.282,"body":"the show, Professor Paul Salmon and Dr"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2786.342,"endTime":2788.122,"body":"Scott McLean, it's been a real pleasure."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2788.602,"endTime":2789.522,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2788.602,"endTime":2789.522,"body":"thanks for having us, Sam."},{"speaker":"Scott McLean","startTime":2789.522,"endTime":2789.922,"body":"It was great."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2790.222,"endTime":2791.572,"body":"Yeah, thank you,"},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2790.222,"endTime":2791.572,"body":"that was a great discussion."},{"speaker":"Paul Salmon","startTime":2791.572,"endTime":2792.232,"body":"Really enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2798.952,"endTime":2801.142,"body":"And now some final"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2798.952,"endTime":2801.142,"body":"thoughts on today's question."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2802.002,"endTime":2804.972,"body":"It's clear that the adoption of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2802.002,"endTime":2804.972,"body":"complexity science and practice"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2805.032,"endTime":2807.042,"body":"to sport is at a crucial juncture."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2808.032,"endTime":2810.852,"body":"Yes, there's a growing recognition"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2808.032,"endTime":2810.852,"body":"that it's now more viable than"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2810.852,"endTime":2814.902,"body":"ever before, but whether or not"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2810.852,"endTime":2814.902,"body":"it experiences a lasting uptake is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2814.902,"endTime":2816.522,"body":"dependent on a number of factors."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2817.387,"endTime":2820.327,"body":"Perhaps most notable will be"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2817.387,"endTime":2820.327,"body":"whether key decision makers and"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2820.327,"endTime":2822.427,"body":"organisations can see its value."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2823.357,"endTime":2827.137,"body":"This will be difficult to prove on"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2823.357,"endTime":2827.137,"body":"multiple levels - the traditional cause"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2827.137,"endTime":2831.607,"body":"and effect way of thinking that we so"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2827.137,"endTime":2831.607,"body":"often subscribe to, is indirect opposition"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2831.727,"endTime":2833.857,"body":"to the inherent nature of complex systems."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2834.48,"endTime":2837.9,"body":"Also, as we've discussed in this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2834.48,"endTime":2837.9,"body":"episode, pseudo-complexity has"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2837.9,"endTime":2841.8,"body":"already worked its way into academic"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2837.9,"endTime":2841.8,"body":"publishing and sporting practice."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2842.82,"endTime":2846.33,"body":"This presents a risk for complexity"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2842.82,"endTime":2846.33,"body":"being 'tarred with the same brush'"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2846.36,"endTime":2849.81,"body":"as many other recently failed"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2846.36,"endTime":2849.81,"body":"ideas in sports performance."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2850.223,"endTime":2853.403,"body":"Consequently, it's paramount that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2850.223,"endTime":2853.403,"body":"the true nature of complexity is"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2853.403,"endTime":2857.783,"body":"upheld by those looking to increase"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2853.403,"endTime":2857.783,"body":"its uptake in sport, if we truly want"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2857.783,"endTime":2859.373,"body":"it to take root for the long haul."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2860.423,"endTime":2863.543,"body":"For those proponents that do manage"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2860.423,"endTime":2863.543,"body":"to gain traction with these ideas in"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2863.543,"endTime":2867.623,"body":"their research or practice, it will"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2863.543,"endTime":2867.623,"body":"typically be accompanied by some period"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2867.653,"endTime":2872.093,"body":"of stakeholder upskilling, and in some"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2867.653,"endTime":2872.093,"body":"cases, a complete transformation of"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2872.093,"endTime":2874.793,"body":"the philosophies of an organi sation."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2874.793,"endTime":2878.273,"body":"However, these potential risks to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2874.793,"endTime":2878.273,"body":"embracing complexity in sport, also"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2878.273,"endTime":2882.413,"body":"present opportunities, the sheer breadth"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2878.273,"endTime":2882.413,"body":"and diversity of the area mean that it's"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2882.413,"endTime":2887.033,"body":"far more accessible than many might think,"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2882.413,"endTime":2887.033,"body":"with a range of readily available tools to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2887.033,"endTime":2891.953,"body":"suit any skill level - even if these still"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2887.033,"endTime":2891.953,"body":"require further PR work to illustrate"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2891.983,"endTime":2893.999,"body":"the directly translatable benefits."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2894.883,"endTime":2897.973,"body":"With a growing recognition that"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2894.883,"endTime":2897.973,"body":"discipline-based sports science has"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2897.973,"endTime":2902.143,"body":"taken us as far as we can go, adoption"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2897.973,"endTime":2902.143,"body":"of complexity science to sport could"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2902.143,"endTime":2906.114,"body":"be one of the stimuli to take us to"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2902.143,"endTime":2906.114,"body":"never before seen levels of performance."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2907.044,"endTime":2909.814,"body":"I'm Sam Robertson, and this"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2907.044,"endTime":2909.814,"body":"has been One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2910.494,"endTime":2914.454,"body":"Join us next episode, where we'll"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2910.494,"endTime":2914.454,"body":"be asking: Life after sport - how"},{"speaker":"Sam Robertson","startTime":2914.454,"endTime":2916.224,"body":"can we help athletes transition?"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2918.234,"endTime":2922.214,"body":"One Track Mind is brought"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2918.234,"endTime":2922.214,"body":"to you by Track and Victoria University."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2922.574,"endTime":2925.844,"body":"Our host is Professor Sam"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2922.574,"endTime":2925.844,"body":"Robertson and our Producer is"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2925.844,"endTime":2927.464,"body":"Lara Chan-Baker - that's me!"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2927.914,"endTime":2932.054,"body":"If you care about these issues as"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2927.914,"endTime":2932.054,"body":"much as we do, please support us by"},{"speaker":"Lara 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newsletter?"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2951.639,"endTime":2955.239,"body":"It's a regular dose of sports science"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2951.639,"endTime":2955.239,"body":"insights from our leading team of"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2955.239,"endTime":2958.659,"body":"researchers, with links to further"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2955.239,"endTime":2958.659,"body":"reading on each episode topic."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2959.139,"endTime":2961.539,"body":"Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2959.139,"endTime":2961.539,"body":"listening to One Track Mind."},{"speaker":"Lara Chan-Baker","startTime":2961.779,"endTime":2962.919,"body":"We will see you soon."}]}