Michael Feuer started OfficeMax with one store and a personal investment of $20,000 and grew the business into a $5 billion company with nearly 1,000 stores. Feuer shares with Host Greg Muzzillo the steps he took to ensure that his business would be successful.
"Entrepreneurs need to be able to surface and stand out. You have to be able to add some value that somebody else cannot."
"Make the journey as exciting and fulfilling as the destination."
Chapter Summaries
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Michael Feuer started OfficeMax with one store and a personal investment of $20,000 and grew the business into a $5 billion company with nearly 1,000 stores. Feuer shares with Host Greg Muzzillo the steps he took to ensure that his business would be successful.
"Entrepreneurs need to be able to surface and stand out. You have to be able to add some value that somebody else cannot."
"Make the journey as exciting and fulfilling as the destination."
Chapter Summaries
Resource Links
If you enjoyed this episode, click here to watch/listen to more from Million Dollar Monday.
Subscribe and receive updates when new episodes are available.
>>>>> Follow us on Youtube <<<<<
And what happened was, I remember I was about 10 years old. I loved baseball, but I wasn't any good, which was a problem. So I figured out how to take control of the game. And I saved my money and bought the bases, the bats and the ball and the games always started and ended when I chose and I got to pick the teams. So I learned that. I said, you know, it's sort of, I think someone wrote a song once I'd rather be a hammer than the nail. And it just gave me the inclination that I'd rather be giving the direction than taking the direction. But I have one advantage that's really served me well in business. I honestly
Greg Muzzillo :Hello and welcome to Million Dollar Monday. I'm your host Greg Muzzillo bringing you real successful people with real useful advice for people with big dreams. I understand big dreams. I turned an investment of$200 and a lot of great advice from some really successful people into my big dream Proforma. That today is a half billion dollar company. It is my pleasure to introduce my special guest for today's show. He has turned 15 years of executive level experience in a publicly held retail craft and fabric chain store, and a personal investment of$20,000 into starting OfficeMax and built it into a$5 billion company that he was able to sell for$1.5 billion. Thank you very much for joining me, Michael Feuer. Michael, thank you for being here.
Michael Feuer :Thank you. My pleasure. Delighted.
Greg Muzzillo :All right so what we're here to do is to try to give some great inspiration to aspiring entrepreneurs and people with big dreams. And I love to start at the beginning. So tell us the beginning of your story. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Where did you get your work ethic? At what point did you realize you just wanted to be very financially successful?
Michael Feuer :Yeah, the latter first is I was born with a severe birth defect, poverty, and it really annoyed me. I hated it. And I said, this has got to be, there's got to be a better way of doing this thing. And people laugh when I use that line, which is, this is not the first time, but it was a real motivation. I didn't care about being rich or poor, but I didn't want to want from my family. And I won. I remember when my daughter was first born and we needed to buy a vaporizer and I had to call my dad to borrow 15 bucks, to buy it. I said, this is really ridiculous. I got to rethink my life. And that was one of the motivations. But, the reality was that I remember I got my first job at my dad's shoe store as a cash boy at 14 and it was pretty cool. And then I learned, the cash boy, just took the, in the old days, took the money from the customer and ran it to the cash register, came back, smiled said, thank you. And I said, this working stuff is pretty cool. And then I started telling people how to do, these guys had been there 30 years, how they should be more efficient. So I don't know why, but I, always looked for easier ways to do it, probably because I was a little bit lazy. I don't know. But I always looked at being smart. Perspiration is great, but you pay for performance, not perspiration. So that was sort of the story of my life. And I just jumped forward into the good stuff. I never went to camp, honest to goodness, I tell the story all the time. I didn't know there was a thing called summer camp and I was a phenomenal baseball player in my own mind. A legend I guess, would be in my mind. And what happened was, I remember I was about 10 years old. I loved baseball, but I wasn't any good, which was a problem. So I figured out how to take control of the game. And I saved my money and bought the bases, the bats and the ball. And I, the games always started and ended when I chose and I got to pick the teams. So I learned that. I said, you know, it's sort of, I think someone wrote a song once I'd rather be a hammer than a nail. And it just gave me the inclination that I'd rather be giving the direction than taking the direction. But I had one advantage. That's really served me well in business. I honestly don't take myself that seriously in my interior soliloquies with myself, I always say, okay, what's the real story? What are you really trying to do? And that type of thing. And I always had respect. I try to, not always, I shouldn't say, but I've always had respect for other people. And I sort of figured out very quickly that you were much better off hanging out with people that will really good, smart and nice. And let them do a lot of the heavy thinking and it doesn't have to be your own idea. And, so I wound up getting, I have only had, basically two jobs in my life, but I went to work for, another, a small retail chain in Columbus, Ohio. And I was the marketing director. I think, I don't know what I was in those days, what they call it, but in effect, advertising, marketing, promotion PR, and I really spent a lot of time trying to understand finance and money. And I became very good at it. I then decided I need to move to a big city. And I got a job at a company now known as Joann fabrics. But in those days called Fabric Centers of America, a public company that had just gone public. And I got the job there and I was 24 years old. And I was, I moved up very quickly and became a senior vice president at age 27. And it's only because in good marketing, and this is good for your young entrepreneurs to be able to surface and stand out, is that you have to be able to add some value that somebody else can't. So all I learned, what I learned there was the, they were, Jewish immigrants, very nice people, the Rosskamm family. And I started making a lot of money for the family. So I took over managing the family's money for awhile. Well, I continued to build and wound up number three in the company at 26 or 27 and the owner's son, Alan, who is a friend of mine to this date, was an attorney, which wasn't his fault. It was sort of like, his birth defect deciding to become an attorney, but nonetheless, he came in and they said, okay, Michael, we're going to bring in Alan. And you guys will work together and build the company. And I said, this is a bad idea. I don't want to work with him. I like him, but I don't want to work with him. So I went out to venture capitalists in private and private equity, people in California and raised, I was 33 years old or something raised$40 million. I went back to the family and I said, I got great news for you. They were well off, but they weren't super wealthy. I said, I want to buy the entire company. And this is in one of my books. So I'm not telling stories out of school. There you go. Thank you. Good promotion for the book too. As a marketing guy, I appreciate that. And I know you're a marketing guy, so I appreciate what you do too. So I went to the family and said, we're going to buy the company. And he said, well, Alan will work with you. And I said, no. And I always had this voice in my head. It's a very strange thing. I'm a lousy liar and terrible bluffer, good negotiator, but a bad bluffer. I said, no, no. I want to buy the company. So I don't have to work for Al, I want to be the hammer. I don't want to be some nail or a joint hammer with somebody and they didn't take it, take to it. Well, and I thought, I'm not that bright, but I figured out this was not a good political move. So then I basically determined I need to start my own business. And I basically sort of, and this is where, and this is the important lesson for your listeners. And viewers is the best way to start a business is to look at everything and find out what somebody is not doing, that they should be doing. I knew the only thing I knew about office supplies is I used them like everybody else. And I first looked at a company. You might remember this Greg, BURROWS, which was the old fashion office supply store in, Cleveland, Ohio. And I looked at that and I, what I realized was this company, they had about 30 stores. It was owned by Higbee's, the department stores. At the time they had small, very tiny stores and there were three distinct things that I learned, and this is all doing. It took me about a year of doing the homework. I said, one these stores are selling to small businesses, but they're open from nine to five. Well, that's when they want to do business. It's not when their customers want to shop. So I said, check one, figure out a concept where you're open when the customer wants to be there. Number two, and this was so obvious is from a visual merchandising standpoint, everything you'd go into a BURROW store, other than a pencil was in a Brown ugly box. And you weren't allowed to open them to look at the product. And I said, number two, let's take everything out of the box and create a sense of theater and drama and make the product come to life. And number three was these, this chain was working on margins that were, they were sinful. They were so high. And I didn't, I wanted a large, large, an industry that was very large, but I needed a smaller bite of a large industry. You're always better off than a large bite of a tiny industry. And they were in a, they made their own tiny industry. I said, well, this is too simple. I'll just cut the prices 30% from what everybody else is charging. And that's basically what we wound up doing. So I teamed up with another guy, and I did learn another thing in a year. I was a horrible partner. Wasn't his fault. I just am not good at it. If you hold up that book again, you'll understand why the name of my book was The Benevolent Dictator, which means I do what is right for the greater good, but I make no bones about being the hammer, not the nail.
Greg Muzzillo :So, let's talk about that a little bit. And, um, because I think a lot of people that want to start their own business, especially take some of the fear out of it by maybe having a partner. And, I did, and it didn't work out and it came to a sad ending. We were great friends, but Talk to me, Give our listeners a little bit of advice about having partners, uh, what to look out for and having partners and, and how should they set things up. So if the partnership doesn't work out
Michael Feuer :Well, I think the number one thing is, you know what it's like getting married. If you been married more than once or had more than one girl or boyfriend or boyfriend and boyfriend? I don't care what it is. Uh, you never start going out with somebody or something and doing it thinking it's not going to work out and you're going to get a divorce and the same thing with partnerships in business. So I think what the number one rule is to set very firm, ground rules of who does what, and who is Mr. Ms. Inside, outside, who is the person that's going to do this, and who is this person that's going to do that. And that helped. And it went okay for the first nine months or so, 10 months. And then I realized we both wanted to do the same thing, but my partner and I won't, people can look up who he was. He's a nice guy, whatever. What I realized I was in this for, I was having so much darn fun. I want to do this forever and really build a billion dollar company. And Bob, my partner was more interested in a quick kid. He said, I want to make 10 million bucks and retire. I had just, a different objective. I think the important thing for a startup though, is to have two partners that compliment each other and, let them each decide who's going to do what, and then stay out of each other's way, but collaborate. And the partnership like a good marriage or anything is a difficult situation. It takes a lot of energy and I didn't have this, the patience, it was more my fault than his.
Greg Muzzillo :One of the stories I like in your book is do whatever it takes. I know that I think it was in your first store and somebody came in and they wanted, if I remember correctly, copy paper and, you didn't have enough of it. And you sent somebody over to another store with your credit card. Tell us that story.
Michael Feuer :It's real simple. People would call when we first opened, I got to tell you, I wasn't scared, but I suffer from F of F. And it was not the money. It was the ego at stake and just not failing. So people would call the store and this exaggeration, but they say, how late are you open? I said, what time can you be here? So it's sorta like whatever it took. And we had a simple rule and we used it for years. What a real important lesson for your viewers is most customers when they ask for something 90% of the time they happen to be right, most people are decent. And, you know, for the lousy few percent that are gonna, let t hem have it. If they need it that bad, they can have it rather than me. I don't care. So what we had as a rule was we were in a situated in Mayfield Heights, which was a lot of, a lot of stores around. And we said, if we are ever out, it's like being out of copy paper would be equivalent to a grocery store being out of milk and eggs. And it was not right. And it was our screw up. And we just, so I had a rule, just go do it. We used to have people that would, when we messed up, we would do, we did heroic things just to be the right thing to do. And it came back and gave us 10 times in return because a detractor that gets mad at a company or a business is really looking for a reason to continue the relationship. The one you really have to worry about it. So the customer says they walk with their feet and they never, they close their wallets forever. So I love complaints. I used to take complaints on the, at night just, and I didn't say I was CEO and they would always go on and on of these. And they were right, 99% of the time, I remember, some lady was having some kind of a party and she needed the six foot business, folding tables and it was, the party was the next day. And we had messed up the delivery. I got on the phone with the vice president of logistics, and I said, do whatever it takes. They had them there in two hours. The lady wrote a letter to the company saying this. I used to use baseball player names. Cause I had to have some funds. I didn't want to be Michael Feuer cause they would, they would freeze up and wouldn't tell you the truth. Anyway, and we used to get letters. This Jose Rodriguez should get a raise, he was the best representative of that's true. It's in many of the things I talk about, but it's a simple rule of success. Find out what the customer is not getting and give it to them. Be honest and let them shop in terms of retailing shop where, when and how they choose. It's nothing, If they want to be open all night we will be opened all night.
Greg Muzzillo :Did the first store make money?
Michael Feuer :Oh, we got, your listeners are listening to, I am probably one of the luckiest guys you'll ever meet. The first store was not a, double or triple. It was a grand slam hole in one we attracted, I don't want to mention the names, some of the wealthiest investors in America in the first year because of that. And I was a good promoter and I made sure, and I'm moderately, okay. Talking your listeners and viewers can decide that, but I could tell the story and we were able to raise money. I will tell you an interesting thing that your listeners can appreciate, should appreciate anyone that tells you they can't start a business because they can't get the money. That's just a simple, cop-out. The money was, hardest thing is to make the damn thing work. The money was the easiest thing to obtain. You have to get a cogent story. You have to package it appropriately and then you have to be able to deliver on your
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, okay. Tell me, get me to the point that Kmart got involved?
Michael Feuer :Oh, that was a great story. Of course. I think all my stories are great. We opened, all of our stores were going to be in the Cleveland area because I'm a very hands-on. I went to the store, I wore a suit and tie every day and we had nothing else going for us. So I dressed up, I thought that would help. And first day of work, everyone came in flip flops and t-shirts, and I was in a blue suit and tie, guess what? The second day, they are all wearing shirts and ties and skirts dresses. So you set the tone, and I'm pretty casual guy, but what happened was we decided to keep all the stores in Ohio. So the company, there was a, Kmart decided, because all the phenomenal publicity about the industry to go into the office products business. And they opened in Canton, Ohio in our own backyard and I'm going, whoa, is me. It's all over. So I wasn't going to go out without a fight because they had more money than brains. So I went to, I went to the store, talk to him and I got to spend hours in the store. I then got the name of the CEO, Joe Antonini, who actually Naples now. But Joe was as bigger than life. Great guy, not the greatest businessman, but a great guy. And he was a lifelong Kresge's guy that moved up through the ranks and he was living the dream and I got his name. And the way I got his name is I worked for days to get through to someone. And it was a low level person that said on Tuesday nights, Mr. Antonini works after a board dinner or management dinner, whatever it was. And then he gave me the number. So, this, and this is in one of my books somewhere and I called him on the phone and he answers the phone and he says, Antonini with this tremendous booming voice. And I was intimidated because my thought was, well, I call the guy on the phone much like when I was 16 years old, I want to ask the pretty girl out. I'm going to call the mother is going to tell me I'm an idiot. The girl's going to get on the phone and say, you're a nerd, slam the phone down. So I expected to call him and he'd hang up on me. And he said, I told them who I was. He was very polite. And he says, well, what can I do for you? And I started to say, I started to suck up to him. And I said, well, Kmart is such a wonderful Paragon of virtue and retailing. And it does everything right. And I'm thinking, this isn't going to fly. I said, well, Mr. Antonini, I need to buy your office supply stores. Cause I can make Kmart, more money as an investor. And he went for, it, went up to Troy, Michigan, their huge headquarters convinced this is my, one of my best accomplishments. And only because I wasn't afraid to ask is I went up there and I made a deal. No attorneys, no anybody just Joe and I, and one of his assistants. And, he said, what do you want? And I said, I want to sell you 20%. I want to personally, take out$10 million for myself. Because I'm tired of taking any, any backtalk from anyone in my life. And I never want to be poor. And I want to be able to grow this into a billion dollar company. He said, okay. So we make the deal. I took out all of my investors who got a 14 time return on their money after about two and a half years. And I think he would, he's passed away a long time ago. But, the head of GE Jack Welch was one of my investors and people like that because I, the same story with him. I called him up one day just cause I had to be cool to have Jack Welch's as a stalking horse as an investor. So I got him to invest. So we took them out 14 time return and then really, started buying up other competitors in the industry and started growing the company. And that was the story. And we started in the United States. We eventually had in the United States, 6, 700 stores. I said, this is a big world. And plus I only traveled on business. So I thought I'll travel somewhere nice on business. So we opened another countries which worked out nicely. So I made my job, my fun and my work, my pleasure. And we became an international company. I will be honest though. We were incredibly lucky. We caught the wave at the right place at the right time. There weren't even computers in 1994, everyone was buying computers and faxes and stuff like that, I always say, Greg, I'd rather be lucky than good, but when you're being lucky, at least gotta be smart enough to know you have that opportunity and these opportunities. And I, you know, I turned down a bunch of stuff to deals and things, but I never, a good one, I would do whatever it takes to get it. And that was that. It's not even that glamourous. It was a lot of hard work and a lot of, pain and suffering. Never a lot of fear, but more, I just couldn't believe how hard I was a lazy guy. And my goal in life when I was 16, was to chase girls, play baseball and have a nice car. So I had to change my, my views on life. And I worked every single day. I'd go to work at seven in the morning, come home, seven, change clothes into jeans, and then go out to stores, undercover customers, inspector Clouseau. And I walk around and ask people bizarre questions of why they didn't, I didn't care why they liked it. They were there. What don't you like that, and then I kept changing. We change everything all the time.
Greg Muzzillo :You're living and walking proof about your GOYA, your rule. Tell us your GOYA rule.
Michael Feuer :Oh, very good. You didn't read the book, GOYA is honestly, it is a book and there's a GOYA rule and it stands for"get off your*" well. What is going on in your business? Get up, go out and talk. Put your ego aside, half the time and I'd go out to the stores, As I said, I was, I'm glad I led into that thing. And you're a great straight man, because it made me tell a story. I went into disguise into the store and I would just ask people, what don't you like? And I'd say, boy, this is a piece of junk. And they would tell you why it was junk or they would take the other side. And I did it with products and goods and services, and very seldom, sometimes like undercover boss, that TV show every once in a while. And I really connected with someone. I would tell him who I was and I found an Interesting thing once I told him they, we were pretty big at, you know, they started getting intimidated because they wouldn't tell you what they really thought. So that was my listen to your customers. And I used to take customer complaints using a different name and different things. Uh, and I had the most fun doing that I really enjoyed it.
Greg Muzzillo :Management by walking around some people call that just good for you management by wandering around,
Michael Feuer :We had a huge building, probably much like your corporation, but we had 2000 people in one building, which is where I was. And every morning I would walk through the top floor in the afternoon at lunchtime, I would go into the cafeteria and walk around another floor. I did each every day though. And people knew too. And they knew I was out there and we had t ry to personalize c ause you're a suit to them and scared of you. So when someone had a good event in her life, I w ould be the first one t hat w alked down to the floor and say something. If someone had a tragedy, I'd be the first one. Y ou've g ot a good reputation, actually my reputation, in that standpoint was contrived because I worked on it to be a nicer person t hat I really, I hope I was, but to be a nicer person b ecause I really recognized very early on. And this i s a good lesson also for your listeners is y ou're only, it's corny. You're only as good as those around you. There's no mortal person. That c an run the company with 50,000 people i n t he 1,100 stores by themselves.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah. There was one other rule and then we're going to get to, the sale, one other rule, the mother rule, because it's so simple, but it's a, kind of a great, it's an easy thing to kind of go ahead.
Michael Feuer :My mother passed away many, many years ago, but I still think when I'm doing something, what would my mother say? And the rule was very simple. If you're going to do something. And I think my mother, taught me the rule. She said, don't ever do anything that I would be embarrassed or you would be ashamed telling me. And it was so simple. I said, I can live with that. And we would only in business and in life, I really try to do it. I can't say I've always done it, but, I would never do anything that I wouldn't want on the front page of the paper that I would embarrass my mother or want my mother to know I did it. And that was it. And it includes, I've walked away from millions and millions of dollars in things that I just don't think we're right. And we're not serving the objective, but for my own personal wealth. And I wouldn't be.
Greg Muzzillo :So if I remember correctly, I think you're one of only three companies to get to 3 billion, 3 billion within nine years,is that right?
Michael Feuer :That is correct three companies. And, the, that have ever got to$3 million in less than It was like six years or something. And the other two companies, interestingly, there's been others now, but Apple, Apple computer, and the other one was one of our competitors was Office Depot. And they're just very few. And I think it was, as I said, I'd rather be lucky than good, but be smart enough. We just hit everything timing wise perfectly. And you have to, you know, it's the whole thing. You sell straw hats in the summer, but you buy them in the winter, at a cheap price. And that's what we were able to do is take advantage of that thing. Flip side of that. And it's nothing lasts forever and this is a good reason into why I sold too. But the flip side of that is I also saw the emergence of other obstacles that actually, I thought they had a better mouse trap. One of which was Amazon. This is back and when I sold the company is you started reading and knowing, and I knew some of the people and that they really had a good mouse trap and they could lower profits give more to the customer, in those days, I didn't know, they'd go to the next day delivery, but all of those kinds of things. So Kenny Rogers is probably people always say, what's your best business book or best anything and mine is a song, The Gambler, know when to hold them, when to fold them when to walk away,when to run. And sometimes the best you can hope for is to die in your sleep. I haven't gotten to that point yet, But the truth of the matter is What you do. What one does is not who they are. So one day in the early two thousands, everything was going right. I worked in this public company, I was on the board of the New York stock exchange, a farm boy from, Cleveland, Ohio. And I'm doing all these big league things and knew all these Alan Greenspan when the, when the markets crashed, flew to Cleveland, to get my opinion with Chris of Sherwin-Williams about what we thought was really happening in the real world. It was after 9-11, excuse me. And I'm saying, what is this? I'm still a little kid. I don't know what I'm doing. So what happened was I'm driving to work. And I lived in, on a chagrin Boulevard coming down chagrin Boulevard, and there was a street Harvard and I was driving and I had a Jaguar convertible at the time. Top-down life is good. And I'm saying, you know what? Something's not right. And I thought, of Kenny Rodgers, hold them and fold them. I said, we either have to merge with someone much bigger or it's time to cash my chips at the window, got to the, I got to the office. I got on the phone with some banker friends of mine. Good friend of mine is still a good friend, Ralph Della Rata. Who's now chairman, of a major bank and investment bank and said, I want you to make a call. I knew who we wanted to sell to. So we targeted them.
Greg Muzzillo :So, I got a question for you because there were a couple of deals that you talk about in the book. And us poker players, you talk about Kenny Rogers would call them, tells, you, talk in the book about how you were able to sort of figure out what people were thinking. Really? Are you a poker? Are you a poker player? Because you pick up on tells pretty easily.
Michael Feuer :I dont like gambling. I'd rather bet on myself and I was too cheap to play, but I was good player when I was kid. And what you look for in negotiations are the tell. And I was very, people have habits when they're not sure what they're saying. You know, look down at their shoes. They'll do this. There was one guy. And I mentioned it in the book who I really did. I didn't like a lot of my opponents, I guess, but this guy was a super jerk and I bought his company, but we're sitting at the table and he's telling me things. And each time he spoke and when he lied, his Adam's Apple would bob. And when he was really in a deep lie, he would start doing this. He would slide into the table. So I looked down at the end, he's telling me this story and his chin is on the table. And I said, wait a second. This guy's bluffing. And that's what I do. So you look for signs that people physically or habits, people do, unfavored to tell you the truth, because that implies, you dont, tell me the truth in the first place.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, I was, I was impressed. And I thought this guy must be a poker player because you pick up on tells so, well,
Michael Feuer :You know what i bet on? I bet on people, concepts and ideas.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah. I get it. All right. So OfficeMax you sell. And now you're on to Max Ventures, right? Want to tell us a little bit about Max Ventures?
Michael Feuer :Max Ventures was this feeling of when you start something and your ego is so big and I have a big ego, but a different, in a different respect, but I wanted to do stuff that was fun. So I went on the obligatory boards of directors, big companies got stupid amount of money and it was boring to me. And I'm more of a street fighter. So what I decided was to form a company that would, people would come to me all the time, they still do. We'd like you to consult with us and do this and that. And they'd say, I'd say, well, the truth is, I'd be happy to do it, but my fees are exorbitant. But if I liked the people and the concept, I'll tell you what I'd say, you let me understand your business. If I like it sort of like the shark tank in a way, if I like it, I won't necessarily put money in it, but I will take my fees and I will take them in equity if we never make any money above the benchmark, because I don't want to take your money. You don't have to give me a penny. If it works out though, I get paid because, and I did that with about five companies. So I bought and sold and still have, I bought a nd sold five, but I have three right now and I've done it the same way. And I've one of the most beautiful things about, and you can do i t too in your in your position. One of the most favorite things I like about being somewhat successful as we both are, is that you have the ability in terms of, you can say no and more fun, you can say yes. So I have a thing in my office here a nd where I'm at its a cartoon from the New Yorker Magazine and its th e g uy on a p hone. And he's talking to another guy and the guy says how's lunch, T uesday. And the guy on the phone, my protagonist says, how's never, never worked for you, hangs up on him. That was my goal in life. After I saw that cartoon is when you, as you run a big company now, and I ran a public company, which is, it can be intimidating because you have shareholders, employees, and customers now you got an activist and we h ad those too. I wanted to be say, I'm not doing this b ecause I don't want to. And people say, well, why don't, why won't you do this and I'll I try to be polite if I like them. And otherwise I say, I just don't like it. I don't want to do it. I'm not doing i t. And that's my only rule, and my other rule w as never do business, And I couldn't say this at the beginning, only do business with people that you like and trust because when you're running a public company, that's not your business. You can't always say that.
Greg Muzzillo :All right. So you turned great experience and$20,000 into a$5 billion company, obviously with, OPM, other people's money, which you talked about in your book. And, you know, you've cashed out once now, you're in, your venture business. You flipped some of those opportunities. You still have a few, obviously you're very successful person, now that you've achieved so many great dreams. What big dreams do you have left for the rest of your life? Right?
Michael Feuer :What I wanted this it's so corny. It even annoys me. I got very interested in healthcare and medicine being on the board of university hospitals, Case medical center now Cleveland medical center. And I've been very fortunate in a number of investments. So one of my big dreams is which is now becoming a reality is to be able to fund those things for people and doctors, not doctors with the cure for cancer, but the guy that has, or the gal that has found a possible cure for a twitching left eye, where they're never get government funding. And I adopt these projects. And, and the next year there'll be some stories about this thing that I'm doing with the CEO of the, university hospitals, an endowed program. So what I like to do, but I'm sort of like a kid that I had told you about with the baseball and bat and brought everything, myself, hammer, nail. I like doing those things, but I like to, and this is a flaw, but I still like having a say in what I do. So I figured out a way to give my money away in a way that will be very gratifying to me for things which I'm interested and things that I can apply on, not how to do it, but what I, a doctor will pitch the scientists will pitch an idea. And I might unerwrite it.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, well, I really appreciate your time, Michael. I appreciate your sharing, your story. And most of all, I wish all of our listeners, the ability like Michael has, enjoy the journey every day on your way to your destination. Thanks again, Michael. It's been great. Thanks so much for having me I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.