Chris Voss | The Power Of Open Questions… Never Split The Difference

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Never Split The Difference Book Review (Things To Know If You Do Sales)

Curious Things Mentioned During The Episode

• Christopher Turner – 25 Year CIA Veteran, Lessons In Espionage
• Sam Leith – It’s Rhetoric All The Way Down
• Never Split The Difference Book Review (Things To Know If You Do Sales)

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* Chris Voss 'The Edge' Newsletter *

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Never Split The Difference deserves its place as one of the best selling negotiation books of all time.

It’s co-authored by the brilliant writer Tahl Raz, who turned Chris Voss’s life and lessons into the most readable and actionable prescription for good communication.

I’m stoked today to get to feature Chris Voss on this podcast, the force behind ‘Never Split The Difference’ which is a series of highest stakes negotiations broken down into their parts for examination. Chris was the FBI’s lead negotiator.

Hostage negotiation in Haiti? Terrorism in the Philippines? Egos, money and conflicting interests in a boardroom? Even walking a bank robber from the ledge. What are the phrases and psychology Chris uses in his communication to get the outcome he wants? And where could it be relevant to you?

The podcast here touches on Nassim Taleb and Khaneman’s influence on Chris’s worldview. The line between manipulation and persuasion, serendipity, traits of good communicators and a hell of a lot more.

• 00:00 – Who Is Chris Voss
• 03:05 - When Chris First Paid Attention To How People Communicate
• 12:05 - Nassim Taleb & Communication Over Time
• 22:20 - Serendipity In Chris's Life
• 29:39 - Never Split The Difference & How Chris Unlocked A New Style Of Negotiation
• 36:05 - Khaneman & Tvesky's Influence On Chris
• 43:20 - Gut Instinct
• 48:20 - Line Between Manipulation & Persuasion 
• 50:05 - Consistent Traits In Good Communicators
• 56:05 - Oprah Is The GOAT
• 58:21 - Traits Of The Best Interviewers

🍻☕: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ryanhogg

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Never split the difference deserves its place as one of the best-selling negotiation books of all time. It's co-authored by the brilliant writer Tal Raz, who turned Chris Voss's life and lessons into the most readable and actionable prescription for good communication. And I'm lucky enough today to get to feature Chris Voss here on this very podcast, The Force Behind Never Split the Difference. During Chris's 24-year tenure with the FBI, he spent years as the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator, and his book revolves around those huge stakes negotiations he experienced firsthand, with the likes of terrorists, kidnappers, bank robbers, etc. There is a whole slew of them. But the book, what makes it so good, is that the specific tools, turns of phrases, and negotiation analysis that Chris applies to these moments frame each chapter and each specific negotiation. Chris was as well a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force for 14 years and is now the CEO of the negotiation consultancy, the Black Swan Group. Chris has also appeared on the Who's Who of podcasts. He talks a little bit about Lex Friedman and Andrew Huben at the end, but as well. He's appeared on Rick Ross, Joko Willink, Jordan Harbinger, uh, and really so many more, the biggest shows in the world. His book sold over 10 million copies. It is. things don't get that good for no reason. It is really a phenomenal book, and Chris himself a phenomenal storyteller. This podcast in particular touches on the Sim Taleb and Cuneman's influence on Chris's worldview, the line between manipulation and persuasion, serendipity in Chris's life, serendipity within a negotiation, traits of good communicators, and a hell of a lot more as well. When I read this book a couple of months ago and after we recorded the uh podcast a few months ago, I wrote a bit of a review of that book as well. Which were the things that stood out to me as the most valuable and actionable because um, you know, I daylight as a salesperson, and a lot of people listening to this will at some point in their lives have to do some sort of sales. This book is phenomenal. Just a couple of extremely actionable ways to deal with very familiar scenarios. And so that link to that review is the top link in the description. It was a newsletter I set out a few months ago, so it is as well a call to action for you to please subscribe to that newsletter where you can expect little essays like this, a book review, but then as well promotion of the various podcast episodes that come out, which includes sort of behind the scenes stuff, especially if they're recorded in person, uh, occasionally a bit of a weekender where you get hopefully some interesting things that would come across my desk and a lot more. It's the top link in the description. Suss out that article, subscribe to the meta. And finally, and unfortunately, there is a low hum that affects Voss's recording here. So my apologies for that, but trust me, you won't notice it after a minute or two, so just endure on. Pump that good juice into the algorithm, which is five stars on Apple, five stars on Spotify, closing in on 300, 5 stars on Spotify, which is super cool. And with absolutely no further ado, here is Chris Voss. Mr. Voss, do you remember in uh your life when you started consciously paying attention to how people were communicating?

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Uh yeah, I probably first when I first started noticing and was intrigued by it. You know, what it was in my early days of being a cop. Uh, a little over a year into the job, Kansas City, Missouri Police Department, my second assignment, uh a bunch of detectives got kicked out of the detective bureau and put back in uniform. There was a dispute between the detectives and the administration, and they said uh being promoted to detective is tantamount, or being uh made a detective is tantamount to promotion. You're getting assigned to the detective bureau is tantamount to promotion. And if it's tantamount to promotion, we deserve to get paid more. And you know, you gotta watch out how the bureaucracies will get you. And one of their key points was once somebody gets assigned to become a detective, they never get rotated back out into the field, back out into uniform. Therefore, we've been promoted. Any bureaucracy said, All right, we've fixed that. We're gonna put a bunch of you back in uniform right now. You gotta be careful. And so the upside was, you know, the new guys like me that are, you know, I'm a crime fighter, you know, I'm an adrenaline junkie, I throw bad guys in jail, I protect the innocent. Uh and you and when you're youngster, you never really uh learn how to talk to people, and suddenly I'm riding in a car with somebody who's really good at talking to people. In a soft power. And this guy's using soft tones of voice and respect and solving problems faster than I ever did. And I, you know, I'm uh I think I've always been about, you know, what's the best way to do it? I don't care what what it is, I just want to know the best way to do it. And when I saw these guys demonstrating in front of me, getting to solutions calmly and faster uh than I did, I'm like, I got you know, there's something to this tone of voice saying, you know, this how do you talk to people? You know, issuing orders ain't the best way to do things. So I think that's when I first started to notice it, and then as it popped up in little ways here and there, when I got to New York, assigned to the Joint Terrorist Task Force, and was originally on surveillance, and then I got rotated inside to be an investigator. And it was this guy named Larry Wack that made cases everybody envied. I mean, everybody envied Larry. And fortunately, you know, I got to sit really close to Larry, and you know, among uh a cadre of great investigators, nearly everybody there had had a book or a movie about cases they'd worked on this terrorist task force. Conversely, when I was in Pittsburgh, nobody in the whole division ever had a book or a movie about a case that they did, and in New York, uh, they were everywhere. And all these superstars admired Larry. And Larry was just a soft-spoken, quiet, you know, talk to, matter-of-factly kind of guy, or friendly, and had gotten some of the most dangerous people on earth to bond with him and to work for him, you know, as a cooperating witness. And that was another time when I noticed that, like, you know, soft skills, man, there's there's there's something to this. So when I finally uh volunteered on a suicide hotline and started actually getting taught the ins and outs of soft skills, I I think you know my mind was ready to learn.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

So what you noticed in those initial detectives, but then as well, Larry was maybe controlling the tone of voice, um, a gentleness, were there some deeper insights that you were starting to pick up on, or was it until you got to the hotline that you were you know being taught this is how you do it?

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Well, I th you know I think I really noticed more tone of voice. I remember the the detective um uh back at an uniform in Kansas City, you know, his tone of voice really struck me. And his respect to people, leading with respect. You know, getting respected by leading with it, but very deferential. And I think I probably know his tone of voice first, and then when you the instruction for the suicide hotline and crisis hotline was very much more the mechanics of it, although the mechanics were a little vague by the time I got to the crisis negotiation unit with the FBI. I started getting very specific with the mechanics, so much so that the specificity that we worked at at CNU when I went to Harvard to teach, the Harvard guys, like you guys have defined it so much more clearly than we ever thought of defining it. And I think that was because as an FBI agent hostage negotiator, you're teaching local police officers hostage negotiation. And local cops are great crap, like they want practical stuff, they want you to be able to define it. You know, it was Einstein thinking, I didn't realize that at the time, you know, the uh attribution to Einstein is if you can't explain it in plain English, you don't understand it. And cops want you to explain stuff in plain English, or they're just not gonna tolerate you. And I think that's where I really learned to just define it in very specific terms, which is how we teach it in a black swan group now and how it is, it never split the difference. Like, say this exactly like this. Don't change it, use these words. Here's the very specific words, use the sequence. We'll tell you afterwards why it works, but you're not gonna believe the why until you've used it yourself and been like, oh, wow. I guess it does work. So it's got to be explained in very clear, clear, um, concise terms.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Do you think these fellas, Larry Wick and the other more old-timer guys, were it was natural that just through trial and error they had sort of inherently learnt these ways to communicate with people, or were they also operating off a playbook?

SPEAKER_03 9:22

No, I think, you know, I think uh the only thing that's natural, really, um I think we're all born with a blank slate, it's how coachable are you? Are you open to learning and do you want to figure out how to do it better? Now, at some point in time, either see it, you're gonna see it get done, or you're gonna notice it, or somebody's gonna lay it out for you. At which point in time, if you're coachable, you're gonna do it. A lot of people are not coachable. Um, there's a psychological test called the five-factor inventory. One of the things that tests you for is openness, which is also coachability. Like you can be real smart, which is actually a handicap if you're not coachable. The number one factor that I think is coachability. Hard work comes very much after that, uh, closely as a second. I mean, you're not going to get there without hard work, but if you work really hard and you're really stupid, you're just gonna spin your wheels doing the same thing wrong over and over, wondering why things don't change.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

But if you think about Larry Wick specifically, was there a playbook for him to learn from? Or was this just trial and error over time, communicating with so many different people that he's maybe starting to consciously speak slower, notice tonality, listen, etc.?

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Yeah, I think Larry uh probably I never heard him talk about who he learned from. I think he probably just really noticed what was effective around him and was open to picking it up and trying it. And it and forgive me, it's WAC, W-A-C-K, which was actually kind of funny because Larry made some extraordinary cases, and if people would ever start talking about an investigation that others were astonished by, they'd say, you know, this was a wacky case. And I always knew they were talking about having learned from Larry Wack.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So you didn't really start consciously thinking about how am I communicating to people, how are other people successfully communicating until you're on the job. This isn't something you notice in your home growing up or amongst your friends.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

No, uh, no, I I I really didn't uh because I don't remember anybody that did it, and I was like, wow, how did that happen? Uh you know, prior to when I was a police officer. My father, very direct, very high integrity, very very hard-working guy, um, sort of the definition of an assertive, which I'm a natural-born assertive. And often our our default tone of voice makes people feel like they got hit in the face with a breath. And so that was mostly what was modeled for me growing up.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Nice. So obviously the core of Never Switzer Difference and also negotiation, it is this idea of good communication, or at least, you know, extract communication. Effective, extracting from an interaction, you know, what you want. Not necessarily in a manipulative sense, but you know, in a professional case, you have something you want to extract from the other person. Just more generally, do you think over time in your own lifetime the general level of communication has gotten better or worse because of the influences that shape culture and society?

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Well, uh, you know, I think I think we notice it much more because of social media put so much more of it in our face. I don't I don't really know whether it's got better or worse just because of what the media's calling our attention to. I think the middle of the bell curve uh on any generation s struggles with uh their own experiences. Um if in your formative years up to age twenty-three, you've never been through any through any really tough times. Uh you're not that tough. Um I've heard some discussion the generation following the millennials having to be more conscious of sort of the global recession that pretty much was hard on every family. I've heard it said that as a result of that they're a little tougher. You know, in their formative years they were seeing their families struggle. Now that doesn't mean to say that the millennials, on an individual basis, on an individual human basis, that their families didn't go through some tough times and they learned a lesson along the way. But you're talking about, you know, a large grouping of human beings. So there's a difference between what's a generation gone through and what's the individual gone through. But you need, you know, tough times make tough people. Um I see Nicholas Tower wrote a book called uh anti-fragile. Uh I I love his writing. And he coined the term anti-fragile, and he said, you know, there's post-traumatic stress disorder and there's post-traumatic stress growth. And those that have reached the height of what they're capable of human beings probably really took a beating somewhere along the line and eventually got up. You know, it's a matter of if you get up. And it doesn't matter how long you stay down, everybody stays down for a period of time. Everybody, everybody gets crushed. But the people that become real superstars are the ones that got back up.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah, I think from that um book he uses an example that uh an anti-fragile package, if you were to send it overseas, you would not write fragile on the box. It would, in fact, you know, state the opposite. You want it to be roughed up so it arrives better than it was sent. But he also wrote a book called The Black Swan. Uh, did you take that terminology?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Are you kidding me? Holy cow.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Was that uh the inspiration for the name of your company?

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah, it really was. Uh I stumbled across that book when I was leaving the FBI, and uh I, you know, I did I went back to school, got a master's mostly because I didn't know what to do. How do I leave the government? Get into the private sector. I need some help. And one of my colleagues pointed out uh Tellev's book, uh, The Black Swan, you know, the impact of the Hylian problem. And I'm digging into it, and and he took that metaphor from, I believe, 16th century or 17th century. And and they discovered black swans on Australia. And you're like, holy cow, this this could happen. And I thought it was a perfect metaphor for what a great negotiator does. There's really tiny little things that make all the difference in the world.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

This wasn't uh planned, but since you're such a fan of Taleb, it's quite serendipitous. Nasim Taleb is a very consistent theme throughout this podcast. And the likes of Russ Roberts, Brian Klass, um Scott Patterson, who have written a lot about Taleb and interacted with him quite a bit. So I even have a podcast called the Nasim Taleb and Inserted Podcast. So very consistent theme on this show. Um so this wasn't planned, but I mean, since you know he's been brought into the conversation, apart from what you've just said, the role, uh the influence that the idea of anti-fragile has had on your worldview, as well as the black swan being the name of your company, how else has Nasim Taleb's work affected your worldview?

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Wow. Uh you know, his philosophy overall, which keeps getting echoed, you know, he's he's a skeptic. You know, when I'm reading his stuff, I'm either underlining every other sentence, you know, highlighting it, or I get into it and I go like, what the hell are you talking about? Like you are out of your mind. And so it's challenging. He's a really practical guy. You know, having gone to Harvard, uh, he bashes Harvard all the time. You know, the people thinking he hates. I think he calls him the Russian Harvard crew. You know, I'm like, ah, okay. Yeah, so uh, but those those are the two principal things. I mean, I probably haven't I haven't read everything he's written. I would love to be able to find the time for it. But uh I will tell you now now that I'm talking it out loud, one of the things you uh universal principles show up in different places. And he talks about curiosity and anti-fragile as being an anti-fragile characteristic or a superpower, for you know, to paraphrase. And you start looking around, you see curiosity popping up. Derek Gaunt, who's uh head of my coaching and training, a brilliant negotiator, uh way smarter than me. He's always told people stay curious, stay curious. You can't be curious and angry. Your mind is open, you're smarter when you're curious. So Derek's saying it. Uh Talib is saying it. I know I'm saying his last name wrong. And then I uh you know, I pick up Man's Search for Meaning a couple months ago because it's one of those books that if you're into reading to make yourself a better human being, and you kind of have to be, everybody I admire reads like crazy. Mark Cuban, um, Warren Buffett. You know, all these guys talk about reading all the time. The title that keeps coming up all the time is Man's Search for Meaning. And like, I gotta read this thing. Everybody I admire reads it. In the middle of the discussion of surviving a concentration camp, he points out that the people that survived got curious. You know, uh being in the middle of a concentration camp was so horrific and so fearful that anybody that was there in a Nazi concentration camp, if they ever got to the point like going, like, I wonder what the hell's gonna happen next. They survived more psychologically. It was one of the greatest defenses. If they survived physically, and then of course, if you could survive psychologically, it increases the chances you'll survive physically. Because you're not dumping neurochemicals into your body as a result of fear and horror that they're gonna kill you by themselves. Like this curiosity thing pops up again as a survival skill, uh, a life uh accelerator.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

How do you express your curiosity? What avenues are you drawn down?

SPEAKER_03 19:39

You know, I you know, um you gotta you gotta override the default mechanism on a regular basis. And what do I mean by that? Um the default mechanism in a human being is to be largely negative. Your survival mechanism is to be largely in a negative mind frame. That's what we inherited from our cavemen because the negative stuff will kill you. And if you survive something negative once, you're probably not going to survive it the second time. So all of your senses are on high alert for negative things. And the cavemen that survived were largely pessimistic. That's why they survived. You know, we we got nothing in comparison to the in terms of physical power to the rest of the animals on a planet. How did we survive? Our mental faculties, how did how did you know, whatever version of man that we are outlast in Neanderthals? You know, what was it there? So that's what we inherited. You gotta override, you gotta override the mechanism every day. And one of the things I told myself this morning, I saw this book, like God wings, look for godwings. And so this morning I'm thinking, like, alright, so I've got to look for the surprises that are gonna delight me. That keeps me curious about what's gonna happen today. Gets me out of my schedule. I'm very schedule focused, but and task focused. But how do I stay in the moment? Like, I, you know, something's gonna be hidden from me here today. I gotta keep my eyes open to find it. And that's one of the ways I work on staying curious.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

You know, it's actually um a deeply Talebian theme. The uh the encouragement for one to remain curious because the curiosity could invite a type of serendipity. In fact, I think in the Black Swan, he explicitly prescribes that one should, for instance, you know, live in a big city, say yes to the invitation, talk to as many people as possible because you don't know what the positive outcome will be, the serendipitous outcome from this interaction. And the more curiosity you have, the more sort of disconnected nodes that you might be interacting with, which can then lead you down these, you know, incredibly serendipitous pathways. The pathway from you to go from COP to FBI's lead. negotiator to best selling author to now head of this you know big um big agency is is is phenomenal and I'm sure full of serendipitous paths. So uh to round off that I did I sent this to Kiana in advance. I wonder if you got a chance to see it but I ask every guest uh the role that serendipity has played in their life so this seems like a good time as any to ask.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

That's a perfect question. And I'm I'm talking to a guy about the possibility of doing some podcasts. He works for a talent agency out of LA I'm sitting down talking to him and I'm always digging into people's background and he goes to work for William Morrison Theather and he starts out in what they call the mailroom and he says I read this book called the Mailroom and all the top Hollywood players they all started in the mail room you know Ari Emanuel uh David Geffen uh you know any of these guys it started at the bottom and as much as Hollywood uh the entertainment industry has an opportunity for being cutthroat I mean these guys maintained their integrity now they were fierce competitors but they weren't you know they didn't they didn't get ahead by stabbing people in the back by bashing people they got ahead on core values of hard work and delivering and people being able to rely on their work. He says so I'm inspired and I go get a job in a mailroom because the mailroom is like an inter they they work you like a dog they don't pay you anything and that's the way you work your way up and he says and so my first shot at getting out of the mail room that I I I'm promoted up into being in the boss's office and he sends me back down to the mailroom basically fires me you know unacceptable can't cut it get this kid out of my office bam back down into the mail and now this guy's ahead of a division in that same agency having been effectively fired at one point in time in the same organization kicked back out you know kicked back down to the bottom line of the ladder I'm like I want to find out more about this guy and this philosophy and we're gonna change our hiring philosophy in a black swan group and I'm gonna bring as many people in as possible and I'm gonna say here's what I'm on I got a lousy proposition for and uh we got a superstar now youngster and this is what I told him I said here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna work you like a dog I'm not gonna pay you anything and I am going to give you the opportunity to head an entire division like whatever you want to do the sky is the limit I want ultimately 30 people to work for you I want you to realize everything you could possibly imagine and the way to get there is this lousy proposition. No promises no guarantees you don't cut it in the first six months I'm gonna fire you and the world is in front of you if you are willing to accept this position under these conditions. And he can't get enough of it you know I didn't make him any big promises I want people that are ambitious and and and have high integrity and just by me having a conversation with this guy like how what's your background how'd you get into this this is what I was inspired by and I failed in a huge way and the organization that I work for let me start over and now I'm in charge of an entire division. And I thought that's that's the way I want to run this.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

So that might be a more recent moment of serendipity where a conversation had a huge change in the way you run your business. If you cast your mind back to um the hostage negotiation days, the terrorism negotiation or even back on the force were there any pivotal moments of serendipity that offered you know an incredibly divergent fork in the road which you took yeah um when I was in New York and I was I was trying to decide I mean several other guys made some huge cases because we worked really hard and we had great prosecutors I mean a definite team team effort and um everybody was working their way up the line um and there were basically five of us I was last on a list the other guys were more talented than me did more than I did.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Well it was kind of a progression and those guys got promoted ahead of me and I didn't I didn't begrudge them for it. So I'm basically last in line upper management changes new guy comes into New York that doesn't like me at all. I've always described myself as a loose cannon that always hits the target and this guy didn't care that I hit the target. He didn't like loose cannons he didn't want to know about anything he didn't want anything to happen that he didn't know about in advance. And I'm trying to make up my mind am I gonna stay in New York be a terrorism guy for the rest of my career? You know I had aspirations to going on to ultimately maybe heading up the FBI's terrorism division in New York City You know where was I gonna go and do I do this do I be a hostage negotiator? Because at that point in time I'd also negotiated Chase Manhattan bank robbery where I had you know a unicorn event under my belt that went really well. What do I do? Do I go terrorism for the rest of my life? New York City love New York City couldn't was happy places I still the places I'm happiest on earth and this new guy came in had no time for me and I went to him and sort of informally felt him out and to his great credit in a very nice way he let me know that he was never going to support me to go up the line in New York he didn't want me in his division he didn't want me under his roof fortunately he was not a vindictive guy. This man if I decided I want to go elsewhere he wasn't gonna block that because he wanted me out of his house and so I decided you know well let me go down and be a full-time hostage negotiator that guy down there Gary Nessner another mentor seems very not just seems was extraordinarily supportive of me he stopped me one time in a restroom of a bar saying like when are you coming down? You know what do I got to do to get you down to Quantico to CNU I'm like yeah yeah you know I'm in New York and I'm terrorism I was and I thought this guy in New York doesn't want me and Gary Gary great mentor I'm going that way and thank God I did because then it opened up a whole new chapter in my life that never would have happened if I'd have stayed in New York if that guy hadn't hadn't decided I was on his I was on his naughty list. I wasn't on his nuts.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

That's phenomenal Chris um like exactly the type of anecdote which I'm hoping for when that question is asked because you know had the fella in New York maybe just seen uh a loose canon who never missed that maybe might have been a you know nonetheless a valuable person to have around then we wouldn't have gotten never split the difference and everything that would have come from that did you did you write that yourself?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Alright so it was a collaboration between myself my son and Tal Ross. Because it's so clearly written so like like phenomenally written actually the clarity of the writing is Tal Roz. Tal Roz is a genius business book writer I don't think there's a better collaborator for business book on earth and one of the things that I learned from that experience is nobody can write everything. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't buy a children's book that Tall wrote or tall wrote poetry you know I would buy it and you know I mean we recently had someone who is a master's in creative writing had a brief stopover in my company and you'll get you will get a master's and the people that gave you that say you can write anything and and this person was convinced could write books could write short copy five word copy could write blog posts and I'm like no no no no no you gotta you got you're gonna be really good at one thing and Tall is really really good at business books. Yeah if Tall's name is on a business book read that book.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Nice what an endorsement but look we're halfway in and we haven't addressed negotiation nor the book so as a way to enter it um you alluded earlier to your Harvard days and uh the saying getting to yes was really like the new the holy grail negotiation theory and then there's this quote from the book that just emphasizes how different your style was to the prevailing norms it seems like all you do to these Harvard guys is say no and stare at them until they fall apart so you know what had you discovered that this prevailing negotiation theory was missing you know the the the bare knuckles brawling of kidnap negotiation and hostage negotiation you know it's just human nature and you get you get you learn real fast what works and what doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

And in in my hostage negotiation days I remember reading getting PS and thinking like this makes so much sense and every one of us that read it said this makes so much sense and in my hostage negotiation world none of us turned around and said yeah we solve this case reading this not one and you know that's I think that's one of the the the appeal the book is academically just darn near academically flawless and in the nitty gritty of the real world human beings are not academically flawless. Yeah and so just just learning what works real hard and then turning around and and and bringing it back and having people say all right so try this even before Never Split the Difference came out when I was teaching in business schools I made the students try it in real life and they started knocking it out on the park on a regular basis. So you know I may have rambled from your question a little bit but the practicality of what actually works was really what guided and picking it up a little bit here think of back to those detectives you know thinking back to what worked on a hotline and enshrining it in real life.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

It was all practical application of announcement but more to say what was the methods you had discovered because getting to yes was all about five steps towards a Batner but then you're coming in with a very distinct style of just open-ended questions and really thinking about the emotional aspect to everything.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Yeah and then the power of those open-ended questions and what would end up actually happening. And the secret to gaining the upper hand is giving the other side the illusion of control. I mean I I you know I would I would just I would either say no to the Harvard folks the Harvard students or I would ask them an open end question which would flummox them you know simultaneously making them hear now and then just wait. And those that pride themselves on intellectual discourse they're gonna start yakking. You know they're just gonna start talking. They can't stand to have uh the silence to them silence is an opportunity for them to explain themselves. And so then you know you just kind of guide them a little bit and you're deferential and you keep guiding them and guiding them and guiding them and pretty soon you you guide them to something you like.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

And then when they come out with it and and you look at them you go that's brilliant you know the art of letting the other side have your way. Yeah and they would never see it.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

We we I don't want to like make you relive the book here really the audience um they have to if they want the prescription for how to do this just consume the book because as we've been through it's very easy to consume it's enjoyable to consume. But I can say one direct thing which I've used so many times to like unbelievable success is um I I work in sales and whenever it comes to say a touch of an end point or we're discussing um the commercial terms for the agreement me just sitting back hearing them say something and almost irrespective of what they say just how do you propose that we move forward it is so powerful it's it's unbelievable actually they will meet you on your quote most of the time or if they don't they're going to reveal a bunch of things irrelevant to the deal which you can then just throw in on top because they mean nothing to you on paper it's nothing but in in practice it's unbelievable truly yeah a well timed how question is a game changer and that's exactly where you're at yeah so Cunnerman and Tversky are feature quite a lot throughout the book these are two fellas that sort of made a bunch of behavioral discoveries or observations at least and it seems they've really impacted your worldview. What did they discover and then how did it affect negotiation theory?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Well principally um prospect theory and there are a lot of thinkers around them in the same realm and I think they either worked with Kahneman and Tversky or they learned from them along the line but you know the the synopsis a lot a loss things twice as much as as an equivalent gain. You're more likely to um uh make a decision to avoid a loss than you are to accomplish a game which runs contrary to all persuasion thinking persuasion is you lay out the game tell them tell them what they have to gain and the the loss will be obvious to them. Well no that's not the case so it's it's flipping it on the head and the thing that I like about Connor and Tversky especially Michael Lewis's book The Undoing Project goes into great depth on how those guys developed their theory uh you know they were contrarian they were uh disruptive they meant to disrupt the establishment I think one of the comments that really threw them off they spent so much time as attacking the establishment that when they became the establishment they didn't know what to do. Yeah but they were very practical you know they didn't they didn't run extensive academically rigorous studies with students in false circumstances they were asking people in their lives questions you know human beings on a regular basis they're posing questions to human beings under actual circumstances and they're pulling at data and then they're applying and I realized then I can't remember at what point in time it became oh I know what what it was in a hostage negotiation you're always taught to look for the loss. There's going to be a triggering event within 24 to 48 hours of the current incident that's gonna signify a loss to the the instigators of the incident and dig in because you're gonna look for loss that's the motivating factor for for the behavior overwhelming every other thing. So in practical terms I'm taught hostage negotiation look for the loss look for the loss that's our triggering event that's how we can uh quickly unravel this whole mess and after having learned that in practical terms then seeing Kahneman and Tversky saying it's not just crisis it's human nature the loss is the dominating factor not the only factor but appreciate what it means that it's the dominating factor and that's uh among the things that I began to realize that my hostage negotiation emotional intelligence wasn't just for people in crisis because they were in crisis what it is is how people are wired and then I started really digging much more into uh Professor Kahneman and Professor Tversky stuff.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

You know I Danny Kahneman Daniel Professor Kahneman not not deceased but what the two of them gave Planet Earth in terms of human learning is phenomenal is there a direct experience you could recall where because of something Kahneman Tversky observed you could apply it in a real life negotiation?

SPEAKER_03 39:17

It doesn't have to be terrorism or hijacking it could be something of the black swan well the the how am I supposed to do that it triggers a potential sense of loss or uh in in in people on the other side um because it makes them look at like all right this you're threatening to take this away if you say how am I supposed to do that but you're not but you're not explicit who you're saying it's uh it's a general way to put a refusal there's a difference between what you say and what they hear uh I'm coaching uh shortly after I get out of the FBI I'm coaching the young lady for free because it's in the early days the book isn't out she's being held hostage to the future what does that mean companies getting her to do a lot of PR work for free because of all the opportunities can I give her all this great opportunity you do this promotional stuff for us for free and the world will be your oyster we'll make all these referrals so she's working six seven months for free not the world ain't opening up now she feels hostage.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

She feels if she doesn't continue and they're not paying her that now they're gonna bandath her and you know I say I say to her look get them on a phone and just say you know how am I supposed to continue working for you and not getting paid and she freaks out I can't say that you know they're gonna fire me so I got to talk her off the ledge I do a little crisis intervention takes her two or three days to work up the courage to get them on the phone and say how you know how am I supposed to do this and she lays it on them and they say you're right you can't now she didn't say she couldn't do it but what she said and what they heard and what she said was pay me or I quit what they heard was pay me or I quit which is a loss to them they know how viable she is but until they're afraid of losing her without being threatened they won't come up with the money and that was you know why does this work how how is this so effective it's it's the triggering of loss in the other side without threatening it directly without making you a threat it's putting the image in their head what you say and what they hear and she said how am I supposed to do that and their response was you're right you can't that's not a direct response to what she said they're responding to what they felt not what she said and this is all because of the well-timed open-ended how question exactly what are some other prefixes people can maybe think of for just well-timed open-ended questions well uh as if somebody's somebody will do something um because the cost in the moment is too high and they're not looking at the long-term prospects of how it's going to save them money this is a typical interaction um whether it's finances transaction you know people are really worried about what's the loss in the moment versus the loss long term the whole phrase pennywise pound foolish you're tripping over dollars because you're trying to pick up pennies you know that's when you're very short-term focus how do you get somebody out of short-term thinking into long-term value for lack of a better term and the question is going to be what happens if you do nothing because they're they're getting killed over the long term on whatever it is the comfortable inaction which is sort of the bane of mankind's existence uh Kennedy quote in the early 60s long along those lines the risk and cost of comfortable inaction how do you get somebody to think about that a well-timed what happens if you do nothing makes them consider the long term costs of comfortable inaction do you feel I just I had this um this sense just then where you were responding that having speaking to you you're probably extremely perceptive to say my own communication you know am I being honest am I being sincere am I nervous etc do you f uh one are you thinking that but furthermore do you think people are maybe more guarded until they know you of course but initially more guarded in speaking to you because you have this aura of a a communication expert who can immediately spot what you're trying to do well there's there's actually a pr predictable pre

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Aggression. They're usually immediately intensely fascinated and curious and can't get them out.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

So they're not guarded at all at the very beginning, usually. And then they get gone. Holy cow, you're analyzing me. You're probably doing this to me right now.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Because that, you know, their amygdala is kicked back into gear.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

They were curious and they were open. And then their amygdala jumped down, the survival mechanism, but we all got a fight. And then, if they actually start listening to the interaction and going back to their gut, they realize that the gut is telling them it's okay. And it usually takes a while, unless you intentionally trigger your gut, it usually takes a while for the gut to override the amendment.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

And so are you maybe making observations of my own communication throughout this chat?

SPEAKER_03 44:54

No, I let no, not specifically. I just let my gut tell me. You know, I rely very much on my comfort. I also know there's some predictable triggers early in the act in an interaction, which I listen to very closely. So if I got if I got alarm bells going off early, I listen to those alarm bells. Or, you know, somebody once said it's not the red flags, it's the yellow flags.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Oh yeah? What did that mean?

SPEAKER_03 45:22

So I'm highly conscious of the yellow flags. And some of them are very predictable, and I know what they are. And, you know, in the first 10 to 15 minutes, max, I'm going to be listening to my gut. And and then that's all the analysis I do. Because I'm into long-term collaboration, period for prosperity on both sides. So I just I let my gut go.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Speaking of you know, pure instinct, gut, gut feeling, if someone is learning these methods of communication, you know, learning that I need to intentionally lower my voice, give you the DJ, or open question at the perfect time, do you think that the gut instinct can sense someone's faking it? Like, you know, that that that distance between a natural versus a person putting it into practice, the gut can tell the difference.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Yeah, well, they yeah, they they can, and there's are they faking it or are they just all? And you you might feel insincere. That's really one of the big problems, is people forget that it's all learned behavior. Right. So there's gonna be something in the Black Swan method that's gonna be counter to what you're doing, and you will have forgotten that what you're doing was learned. You'll think it's you being authentic. Right. And as soon as I try to get you to take a different style, like, oh my god, I'm being inauthentic to myself. Well, it's all learned. Understanding that it's all learned, and every now and then somebody's tonality is what will throw you off immediately. Like I teach you the technique of mirroring, which is repeating the last one to three words, or selected one to three-ish words. When people first start mirroring, they'll sound like a robot.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Feel like a friend.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

They'll say, I mirrored my wife, and she got really angry. Well, it wasn't that you were mirroring it, it's a way that you were doing it. Right. And that's what triggered her. You know, your wife's gut's gonna kick in because she's got a lot of data. But she's not gonna kick in based on what you say, she's gonna kick on based on how you said it. And your significant other, male or female, they got a lot of data in their gut as to how you react. Exactly. And it's really gonna be tone of voice.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

You know, in uh anticipation for speaking to you today, Chris, you know, I've been deep into a lot of your interviews, the book, etc. And uh so mirroring was really top of mind. And I noticed I was in a meeting, and I was totally mirroring this person, their body language, their tonality, their cadence. And I had to stop and think, this is borderline manipulative at this stage. You know, what am I what am I doing? And then I I reverted to the opposite and was anti-mirroring them, like just doing the opposite, and which is both probably counterproductive for many, many reasons. But I don't know. That I'm sure this is something you have to address all the time, but that line between manipulation versus um what's a better word? Uh persuasion. Exactly. That's the word I was looking for. You know, it's a slippery slope, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

It's keyed by intention. Like, where am I trying to take you with the the tools, the skills? Am I trying to exploit you? The skills are neutral. And my favorite analogy is a scalpel. In one person's hand, it'll save your life, in another person's hand, it's a motorbike. The scalpel is neutral. It's the tool is neutral. Right. What's your intention for its use? And intention has a smell. So if my intention is great long-term collaboration, you're gonna you're gonna smell that from me. You're gonna feel it, you're gonna know it. And you can't you say to yourself, oh, I just labeled me, I just use an oriented question. It's gonna be okay. Because I'm not trying to exploit you. Simultaneously, if either one of us smell bad intent, you know, short-term gain, period.

unknown 49:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Purely transactional. I don't care how badly this affects you. We we should break off the interaction very early on. It's not a sin to not get the deal, it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal. It's also a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

We've got a few more minutes, Chris. Uh, let's see if we can you know pump these ones out. So, a couple of observations I want you to make of traits from people you know. Um, the first being, a quote from the book is that the negotiators' work is emotional intelligence on steroids. And so, what are the traits in people you know who have the highest emotional intelligence?

SPEAKER_03 50:22

I think probably they actually like people, they like human beings. You know, they don't have a distaste for people, and you know, they wanna they want to have a positive influence on a planet, if you will. You know, that what was the job said, make it make it dent universe. Yeah, dent universe those people want to make us positive.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Okay, so just simply wanting what's best for people, liking people genuinely, you would classify that as emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Well, the the uh it's precursor to it. Because emotional intelligence is a people business, and if you don't like people, you're not gonna get good at it.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Think of a person in your mind. They've they've just got off-the-charts emotional intelligence, so they care deeply about people, but some parts of their behavior that are characteristic of that emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Ah, wow. Um you know, they're all they're always trying to fix it. Most of the people in my company are like that. I mean, we intentionally recruit across the board people that we like to work with and are trying to make a difference. Um, and if if both aren't there, they're not gonna last. So I nearly everybody in my company, everybody in my company, I think. I mean, my son. And, you know, my son's biggest problem is he's so much like me. Which means he doesn't want to work for anybody. Even his father.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:59

But my you know, my son is uh is Brandon Voss. Um, his heart's in the right place. And then simultaneously, we're all deeply flawed. I mean, I think some some of the recognition is perfection is a fool's errand, whether it's perfection in your heroes, whether it's perfection in your life, uh, especially in your heroes. Perfection is a fool to assume that your heroes are perfect is insanely naive and sets you up for a tremendous amount of disappointment. And everybody is deeply flawed, and you're gonna find some way to criticize somebody no matter who it is. Other than Mother Teresa. I think you've got to go out, it'd be a hard time criticizing Mother Teresa. You'd have to dig pretty hard.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Oh, Chris, I've got some literature for you then, mate. Christopher Hitchens. You ever heard of this fella? No, I haven't. Okay. Well, I mean, if Mother Teresa has a place close to your heart, then maybe you should steer away from him. But he wrote a book about her and he called it actually, it's a bit uncouth. Is Mother Teresa important to you? Because I don't want to say it if it is.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Well, I I I would never um make myself believe that she didn't have flaws.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Okay. Well, then yeah, I mean, I suppose this proves the point that you were making. She was herself, you know, reportedly a deeply flawed individual, um, as well as potentially, you know, the first female saint. But um Yeah, but who's not?

SPEAKER_03 53:24

You know, it's it's sort of the definition of being a human being.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Regarding hiring for emotional intelligence, do you test for that or is it all gut?

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Um we we test for it, but sort of in a gut instinct way. Okay, nice. You know, I've got I've got a very specific methodology for drawing out of you what your core values are. Or, you know, I listen, I'm deeply curious, um, and I dig in. Which, like if we're hiring somebody and I'm the last interview, you know, my senior leadership team is always afraid when I'm going to find out that they didn't.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Nice. You hire mostly Americans, or do you have Europeans, Australians, Asians on your staff?

SPEAKER_03 54:11

Um, I'll hire anybody with talent. Now, currently, we've only got one person outside of the US. Uh, but we're slowly turning into a global operation, and it doesn't matter to me. There is no demographic that makes any difference to me. All I'm looking for is do you have the talent? Are you coachable? Have you applied this? Have you demonstrated any sort of fascination with this and actually applied it? Right. And you tell me stuff that surprises me about what you've done. And you know, as uh just serendipity so far, only one person uh we got a uh a young lady in China.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

And she came to us. You know, we didn't find her, she found us. And so, you know, that no no demographic limitations whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Um, the most charming and charismatic people you know, think of the top one too. What are very, very definitional traits that they have?

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Well, I'm I'm a little leery of charming and charismatic. You know, because it can be a tremendous cover-up for uh really cutthroat aggression.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

So, and I once read, you know, a charming alpha male is a very dangerous human being. So I'm a little concerned about I uh you know if if somebody's too charming, I'm a little leery. Uh you know, the people that I admire the most, uh I admire straight shoes. I'm uh uh I'm a big admirer of Mark Cuban. Um I admire Warren Buffett. Uh they couldn't be more different.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

You know, meth meth success-wise, uh Oprah Winfrey. Phenomenal. Um, and so then I you know, one of my takeaways from all those people.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

The way you talk about Oprah in the book was was amazing. It gave me so much appreciation for how phenomenal an interviewer Oprah is.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Oh my god. And when you when you really give it some thought, you know, where she started from, where she is, very few people that have covered that much distance, started out with that many handicaps. And then the interviews that she's accomplished, among the most volatile people on planet Earth, you know, star-studded celebrities, uh, you know, pick one, Will Smith, J Lo, um, Lance Armstrong, of course, that interview, Michael Jackson. The negotiations to getting those people into those interviews, and then realizing, you know, Oprah in a nice way, she didn't pull it punches. Right. Yeah. You know, she she she definitely got a velvet glove around those iron fists, but you know, you sit down and talk to Oprah, you're gonna you're gonna have an honest conversation with it, and you're gonna agree to that honest conversation in advance. That's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah, it's super cool. Uh look, I'm sorry, I know we're pushing up on your time. If you could allow just two or three more.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

We'll go two.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

I shouldn't have left that one hanging. Four or five more, no. Um, so in that case.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

You got me past my deadline, so you've done a good job.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

One selfish one, and then one which I'm incredibly keen to hear you respond to. Same consistent traits you found in the best salespeople you've ever interacted with.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

Um who view it as helping. And then consequently, intention has a smile. If their intention is to help you, then they can get away with pushing. Effectively mentoring. They want you to do better, and they're trying to help you, and they're kind of not gonna leave you alone because they can really help you. And I think that makes the best sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

At the risk of you taking a follow-up, there is my second question. We'll let it hang. And just final uh with this one, Chris. Uh quote from the book listening is not a passive activity, it's the most active thing you can do. You've participated in lots of interviews, featured on the biggest podcasts in the world. So if you blanket your entire worldview of communication over this question, what are the best features, the best interviewers you've ever sat down with?

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Um, and it may be a recency or an admiration issue, uh, but um both Lex Friedman and Andrew Huber. And it's because the I so align with their core values. And the Lex is constantly using the word empathy and beauty that happened. And I didn't really understand what it meant until I heard Lex talk about it a number of different times. Like if you will, my life hasn't always been successful, but there's some epic stuff there. You know, I I hammered my way into Iraq two different times against the bureaucracy's wishes. And of all the cases I worked there were one or two big successes, but even being there was epic. And scaring the hell out of the people, you know, of the stuff that I walked them into. And nobody got hurt, but um, it was an epic uh, especially the second time in rolling through Baghdad. I don't know that we had any actual successes at all in that, but the journey was epic, you know, the the Iliad and the Odyssey. A lot of bad stuff happened to those guys uh that weren't successful. But you know, what's an epic journey? There's going to be some failures there. And I really thought about that uh hearing Lex use the word in another interview. And just his desire for beauty and empathy and understanding, no matter who he's talking to. You know, I really admire his core values. And Andrew, my experience with him is a great guy. And listening to his interviews, he's so careful about packaging things so that it doesn't offend you. As much as you possibly can. You know, he's talking about relationships, and he says uh all the data from the studies for heterosexual relationships, and and I'm a heterosexual, but that doesn't mean I don't think uh, you know, same-sex relationships, you know, he goes out of his way to say, look, this is the best data I got, and I'm not taking a position on what your sexual preferences are. I just want you to learn. And to me, that's you know, I admire that so much. So I guess of the of the people that spring to mind most recently, most recently, that I've talked to over the last six months, uh, Andrew and Lex are at the top of the list.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

You think they've got much in common with Oprah in their style?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

They're both very gentle. Um, you know, they're they're both very positive. Um, I think that's probably the commonality. I mean, I think, you know, there's a phrase in Hollywood, in and a limo, out of taxi. And somebody that who worked directly for Oprah said Oprah's philosophy was in and a limo, out of limo. No matter what, at the end, we want she wanted you to feel respected and cared for. And the last impression is a lasting impression. And I think probably both Andrew and Lex, when you interact with them, they did not want you to go away hurt, unhappy, feeling that you weren't appreciated and respected. And they're going to make sure that at the end of the interaction you feel respected and and and and honored, whatever your perspective was. And Lex has got people from all sides of the spectrum on the most recent volatile issues in the world today. You know, Palestine and Israel. He's got people on from both sides. And he's going to make you feel respected throughout, and especially at the end. And I think that's probably a commonality that they have.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Amazing, mate. And uh, I cannot no longer take advantage of your goodwill. So thank you so much for being generous with your time and your responses, and for having put together what is definitely one of the most readable and actionable and helpful books anyone who wants to get better at communicating could ever have. So um tell us uh, you know, where can uh the audience find the your work and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Nah thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, the absolute best way, wherever you are in the world, is to subscribe to our newsletter, The Edge. If you go to our website, blackswanltd.com, B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N-L-T.com, you're gonna get an opportunity to subscribe to the newsletter as soon as you come to the website. And as you said, it's actionable. You get an you give us your email address on a complimentary basis. You're gonna get an email wherever you are in the world, Tuesday morning, about 7.30 in the morning. Actionable thinking, digestible, concise. Use it that day. And we've got a whole library, you can browse the library to look for stuff that pertains directly to you. And if you subscribe to the newsletter, it's the gateway to the goal mine. You're gonna get announcements, training that we have, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Unreal, mate. A link to that newsletter will also be in the podcast description. All right, Chris. Cheers again, mate. Really, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

Thank you very much. An absolute pleasure to be on with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Cheers, mate.