Gareth Gore | Unveiling The Conspiracy Of Opus Dei

Opus Dei are a predatory catholic cult that started in Spain in the early 20th century and grew and grew over the years into a global organisation that set out with the singular vision to re-christianise the entire world. 

Gareth Gore stumbled into this story when researching and writing the collapse of one of Spains largest financial institutions, Banco Popular, which turns out was the bottomless kitty financing Opus Dei’s international ambitions. It’s a story of money laundering, fraud and financial opacity that made possible the scale of one of if not the most influential and pernicious and influential catholic organisations int he world. But it’s not just a benign organisation that creates a welcoming community for catholics the world over, it is an organisation which has been accused of 100’s if not thousands of incidents of human trafficking, sexual abuse and drug abuse and are attempting to influence their worldview through the rewriting of legal systems. A worldview that reflects the most conservative and man made fundamentalist interpretations of the bible. 

This book by Gareth Gore is an immense achievement that proves an otherwise held conspiracy, of financial fraud at the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars, political corruption and a secret society exerting their influence on the halls of power that you and I are subject to. 

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Gareth Gore - OPUS (Amazon)

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00:00 - What Is Opus Dei?
02:30 - How Did This Story Get On Gareth's Radar?
09:30 - What Is Opus Dei In Gareth's Words
24:47 - Josemaria Escriva... The Founder Of Opus Dei
33:40 - 1000's Of Victims Of Human Trafficking, Sexual Abuse & Drug Abuse.
46:15 - The Structure Of Opus
59:05 - Banco Popular
1:16:10 - Secret Societies
1:18:10 - Peter Thiel & Michael Sugrue
1:22:35 - Counter Messaging Campaign From Opus Dei
1:27:00 - How Co-Operative Were Opus Dei?
1:31:10 - Physical Threats?
1:32:30 - Have We Seen The Height Of Opus?
1:37:25 - Changing Media Landscape Over Next 25 Years?
1:42:12 - Serendipity In Gareth's Life

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone, do not skip this intro. The context for this episode is important. Because you may have seen Paul Bettany Silas in the Da Vinci Code, the albino Catholic priest assassin who whipped himself to bed and wore the barbed wire Silise across his left thigh. He plays a fictional character alongside Mantereda as members of the Catholic cult Opus Dei. And while it's easy to write off a fictional depiction of Opus Dei as imagination, the organization itself is not. Gareth Gore has hundreds of pages of source documentation which peek under the hood of a real-world secret society, a true metamorphosis from conspiracy to reality. Opus Dei are a predatory Catholic cult that started in Spain in the 1920s and grew and grew over the years into a global organization that set out with a singular vision to re-Christianize the entire world. They go about this through extremely manipulative recruitment tactics, lobbying the most influential halls of power, and although they are not an organization of assassins like in the Da Vinci Code, they are nonetheless a powerful influence to Vatican politics, US politics, Argentinian politics, and really anywhere Catholicism has cultural influence the world over. Gareth Gore stumbled into this story whilst researching and writing the collapse of one of Spain's largest financial institutions, Banco Popular, which turns out was the bottomless kitty financing Opus Day's international ambitions. It's a story of money laundering, fraud, and financial opacity that made possible the scale of one of the most influential and pernicious Catholic organizations in the world. But it's not just a benign organization that creates the welcoming community for Catholics the world over. It's an organization which has been accused of hundreds, if not thousands, of incidents of human trafficking, sexual abuse, and drug abuse, and they are attempting to influence their worldview through the rewriting of legal systems, a worldview that reflects the most conservative and man-made fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible. This book by Gareth Gore is an immense achievement that proves an otherwise held conspiracy of financial fraud at the scale of hundreds of millions of dollars, political corruption, and a secret society exerting their influence on the halls of power that you and I are subject to. I recorded this on video, so it's on YouTube, link in the description, as well as this podcast feed here, obviously. Gareth is likely to be the subject of much attack from this powerful organization, so support him by getting the book for yourself, links to which are also in the description. And here is the man himself, Gareth Gore. How'd this story get on your radar?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Completely by accident. I I was not looking to write a book about Opus Day. In fact, I knew next to nothing about Opus Day when I came into this. So I'm a financial reporter. I've been covering finance for the past 20 years. Um and generally, you know, I've covered a wide range of stuff, but generally it's kind of quite esoteric, you know, what's going on in the bond markets or this kind of weird had this weird regulation effects, this bank or whatever. But in 2017, a bank in Spain collapsed, and I was asked to cover it. Um and initially it seemed just like the same old story. I mean, we've had a bunch of banks collapse in Europe and across the world since 2008. And it seemed like the same old story of like, you know, basically management had taken too many risks, hadn't stayed on top of what they were doing, and things had just spiraled out of control, and the thing had all come crumbling down. So I reported on the bank, that was the story, and that was the story for everyone else as well. And I just left it. But then two years later, um, and we'll get on to maybe serendipity later, but but but through my partner who had a sabbatical at work, um, she had six months, she's an academic, she had six months to go off and you know, do whatever she wanted to do. And I asked my boss at IFR whether I might go join her and live in Spain for six months and just work remotely from Spain, still doing my day job. And for whatever reason, he said yes. And um this is before the pandemic and before like remote working became standard. And um and so when I was there, I was like, okay, right, I better start looking for some stories here because you know I need kind of needs to justify being in this other part of the world. I know I'm gonna look back into that collapsed bank story because I'd seen in the newspapers that some of the investors that were involved in the bank and some of the bondholders were starting to sue to try to get some of their money back. And so I thought, hey, there's there's probably an interesting financial story here. I'm gonna and so I went around, met all of the interested parties. Um and basically the more I dug, the less sense it all seemed to make. And one kind of glaring thing, which I talk about in the book, is the fact that almost everyone who had lost money seemed to be willing to talk to me. They wanted like the press to cover this story because they felt very strongly that the bank shouldn't have collapsed, and you know, they but there was one glaring absence. The main shareholder, this organization called the Syndicate, um had just disappeared from view. They'd been dissolved as an entity. Sorry, the main company behind the syndicates had been dissolved as an entity. And um and I thought that's a bit odd. So I kind of dug a bit more and I kind of got into the history of the bank. And I discovered that this bank that had collapsed 20 years earlier, 30 years earlier, it had received all these prizes as like the most profitable bank in the world, like, you know, ahead of like JP Morgan and Citibank and all this stuff. And I was like, no, that's a very interesting narrative. Maybe the story here is how did a maybe there's a big story here, uh, just a feature story. I wasn't thinking book at this point. Maybe there's a there's a there's a bigger story here of how it is that a bank that was once the most profitable in the world can 20 years on collapse. And so you know, basically I I made I I I I I I got into contact with one of the old um bosses of the bank who had run this bank, Banco Populare it was called, um, alongside his brother. These two brothers had run the bank for like 15 years alongside each other. Um of the brothers who had had died by this stage was called Luis Vals Travardner, and he'd been a member of Opus Dei, a numerary member of Opus Dei, which means that it's kind of the inner sanctum of Opus Dei. These are people that um that dedicate their lives to the movement, they take vows of chastity, poverty, obedience as well. So that was one brother. The other brother was was this guy called Javier Valls Terradneur, and he was very different. He was not religious, he was outgoing, he, you know, he loved good food, good wine, he loved his golf. You know, they they were kind of polar opposites. And actually within the bank there were nicknames for nicknames for the two of them. They were known as Opus Day and Opus Night. Um So I I I I I was Javier was still around. Um he was very old, quite sick, but you know, extremely lucid, and he basically told me everything. He um he basically um you know I was kind of saying I came into it saying, you know, with the asking him how it was that this bank had collapsed, had been the you know, gone from this peak to to this very deep trough. And I asked him directly, this the syndicate, you know, I I can't seem to kind of locate them, I can't seem to find them. What is it? And he basically said, It's Ops Day.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Um and that set me off on a journey that took me down this very deep, very long rabbit hole out of which I'm just about emerging now, but events keep threatening to kind of drag me back in, you know, people keep getting in touch with new little threads for me to follow and stuff. So uh so whether I get to fully emerge from the rabbit hole or not is uh is yet to be seen.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It's still early days, but how does it feel to have become, at least in the English-speaking world, an authority on such a large topic and consequential topic?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Um honestly, it feels a bit weird. Because like I said, I didn't come into this thinking I really want to learn more about Opus Day and I want to write a book about them. And secret societies. And secret societies. So now to be arguably, oh no, there are there are many more people in the world who know a lot about this, but who perhaps don't want to talk about it. Um who who aren't journalists. Um but um but yes, I mean I'm just I mean, I'm just starting the promotional kind of wagon around the book, and um, so I'm just starting to talk about it. And yeah, I think kind of there is a bit of a realization kicking in, which is quite strange. Because you have this whole imposter mentality, right? You this this imposter syndrome, yes. I mean, so it's like you get invited onto shows such as this, and you know, you and and you think, what am I gonna say? And like, and you you know, you try and prep some some themes and topics that you know try and refresh your brain, and you realize that shit, I'm like, I know quite a lot about this. Maybe I am an expert on this. But yeah, it's a kind of it's a strange sensation. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Well, we're gonna get to the you know counter-narrative machine that is Opus Day and what they're gonna do for you and so forth. But as a journalist working in finance, you uncover the collapse of this large Spanish bank, Banco Popular. And underneath it is Opus Day. So forgive the indulgence, but I just want to introduce some words from the book as a way to for you to explain to us actually what is Opus Day. The book offers a window into the movement, its predatory recruitment techniques, the psychological abuse borne down on members, and the control over their daily lives. It explores the medieval practices of corporal mortification that members are instructed to perform, as well as the daily rites and rituals, from cold showers to sleeping on wooden planks that they still observe today. But this isn't just a story about the past. This book also explores the vast empire that Opus Day controls today. In New York, Murray Hill Place rises 17 stories from the corner of Lexington and 34th. There is no signage on the red brick and limestone building, just a single discrete entrance. Behind the walls of this nondescript building, a well-oiled brainwashing machine is at work. Shut off from their families in the world outside, dozens of young recruits are subjected to a grueling timetable of prayer, introspection, and corporal mortification. Those with university degrees are encouraged to seek well-paid jobs in law or finance and to hand over all their earnings to the order. Men without a university degree are usually not admitted, although the organization actively recruits lesser educated women, some only teenagers, who are pushed into a life of servitude, of punishing 15-hour days, cleaning and cooking, their nights spent sleeping on wooden planks. It's a scene repeated across the globe in London, Nairobi, Sydney, Tokyo, and numerous other cities. These residential centers are fed by a network of schools and universities where teenagers are educated using only those books approved by Opus Day priests, and where newspapers and magazines regularly have inappropriate content cut out. Television and internet are censored. Meanwhile, in Rome, the leaders of this movement live a life of opulence at the palatial Villa Tavere. Forgive me, it's almost through. Lastly, the book raises important questions about the forces that shape our society, shedding light on some of the hidden actors that lurk beneath the surface. As the organization approaches its centenary, it presents an opportunity to reassess Opus Dei, showing the cult to be the centerpiece of a real life conspiracy. And then two quotes, one from the founder, José Maria Escriva. The disease is extraordinary, and the medicine is just as extraordinary. We are an intravenous injection inserted into the circulatory torrent of society to immunize the corruption of mankind and to illuminate all minds with the light of Christ. And then finally, to wrap this up as a way for you to introduce us to Opus Day, a quote from you.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Where do we start? What is Elpus Day? Okay, there are there are two sides to Elpus Day. I mean, there's the public-facing, very friendly side of Elpus Day that the organization likes to present itself as. So 90% of members are these things called supernumeries. These are just kind of ordinary Catholics who have decided to join the organization, I would argue, on false pretenses, because they want to kind of go deeper into their faith. The philosophy of the organization is that Catholics can better live out their faith by dedicating whatever they do, whether it's their job as a teacher or journalist or cleaning the house or doing their homework, by offering everything up to God, by striving for perfection in everything they do. And that's but that's just a veneer. Like that's just something they say. So 10% of members are this class of membership called the numeries. These are people who have often been targeted from a very young age, have been recruited into the movement, and have been basically controlled and manipulated for their entire lives. Cut off from their families and their friends, told to quit their job and go move to another city to do this internal job for Elpus Day. They've taken vows of chastity, poverty, and I would argue the most critical one, obedience. And these are the foot soldiers of Opus Day. These are the people that basically run the organization on behalf of the leadership in Rome. And, you know, you were just saying that, I mean, so Opus Day presents itself as a benign kind of organization that's just helping ordinary Catholics. But, you know, I basically got access to a treasure trove of internal documents and the writings of the founder were it's set out in black and white that the mission of Opus Day is something quite different. And it's something which is far more ambitious. And far more far more ambitious and far darker. I mean, this is um an organization that seeks to re-Christianize the entire world. Now, I mean, we could spend an entire podcast unpackaging that idea. I mean, the world was never Christian to begin with, right? I mean, so and like so um so yeah. But but but but and and like and also it's it's it's for people with faith out there as well who might be listening to this, it's important to emphasize as well that this re-Christianization bears no resemblance to the Christianity that many people recognize, you know, love, charity, this kind of thing. Um this is a an extremely conservative reading of the Bible. Um I think it would be fair to argue that the organization wants nothing short of theocracy. They want society to be reshaped entirely in every strand of society, from government to education to the judiciary to you know everything, everything to be shaped by the very um warped, distorted, conservative, radical reading of the Bible. Um so but yeah, but but Opus Day hides behind this veneer of respectability and but what enables it to do that as well, and we can get into why how this has come about maybe later on, but like the fact that it's a it's an official wing of the church, it's it's a part of the church that's been authorized by by the Vatican, it's it's been given this um legitimacy by the church, and that enables it to basically take advantage of ordinary Catholics. Because, you know, if you're I'm a I'm a parent, I've got I've got kids. Um if I were a Catholic, I would see this organization and think, oh well, they're they're they're approved by the Vatican. Of course, why wouldn't I send my kids to the school? Or why wouldn't I send my kids to off to like some homework club or some youth club that is run by the it's just a part of the it's just a part of the Catholic Church. But what those people don't know is that there's this hidden underbelly to the movement that even the Vatican knows nothing about. And um and it hides behind this legitimacy in order to convince people to drop their guard so that it can go in and basically get its clause into new recruits.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

What have you learnt about, say, religious extremism more broadly? Because this feels like a Middle Ages fundamentalist interpretation of the of of how one should morally live their lives. But yet perplexingly, given the cast of characters that you present in the book, there are still loads of highly educated people living in 2024 who find this to be a very compelling worldview.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I mean, I think there are there are two things there, I think. So so so okay, one we deal with um we're all familiar with you know the stories of you know Scientology and the rest of it. And um for some reason these organizations are able to tap into something, whether it's a vulnerability or a yearning for something in individuals out there. And despite it being pretty well publicized that these organizations are nefarious, and I probably get sued for that by scientist, but it's but but but but despite it being pretty well established that these are not good organizations with individuals best interesting. Exactly. People still fall into the grasp. I think there's something else going on with Opus Day. Because I mean movements like Scientology or whatever, or um what was the other one? Um the one that put the with the letters N N yeah, I forget it.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

But you could throw ISIS or Hamas in there, I imagine too.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I mean, so so I get um ISIS Hamas are slightly different because then there's the there's the Islamic kind of layers of that as well. But like um but certainly something like Scientology, um it kind of operates in a vacuum and there's no kind of greater authority that gives it legitimacy. With Opus Dei, as I was just saying, the fact that it has legitimacy from the Vatican, this 2,000-year-old institution that is present in every country of the world, which has billions. Whose leader is a mouthpiece of God. Absolutely. I mean so so so that gives it something else. But there's also another element to this. Because I mean you're touching there, you're asking about why it is that people that that well-educated, powerful people are drawn to this. And that's because Opus Day specifically goes after them. It positions itself to, and we've seen this absolutely in Washington, D.C. Opus Day has thrown enormous money and resources at basically breaking into Washington, D.C. Because that's where decisions about how society is shaped, that's where those decisions are made, that's where it needs to be. Right from the start, the founder of Opus Day he realized that he, in order to, and and there's a quote which I can't quite remember, and I'm gonna kind of slightly paraphrase it right. But in order to basically kind of you know reach the valleys, you have to start at the mountains and the and the waters will kind of trickle down to so right from the very beginning, the founder of Oppus Day targeted the elite, and that's still what they do these days. And and it's and that's why we see all of these powerful figures in Washington on the con the especially on the re on the radical in the radical wing of the Republican Party. Um that's why we see so many of them part of this organization, because they've been targeted and they and they also see this institution as a benign.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

But some of the some of the more notable names you point out, like Newt Gringich, one of the most influential conservative voices in American history, they weren't targeted from their youth. They as adults fell into this and were happy to take the lobbying money to push their agenda further. But the the point I'm trying to get to is at least for me, I was drawing comparisons with ISIS and Opus Day. The difference being is that the end point for ISIS is jihad, it's rather violent, but the end point for Opus Day was rewriting the legal systems to reflect their worldview as they would like to see it. So there's a you know, it's nice that it's less. Violent, but it's nonetheless as pernicious.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I'm not j well, okay. Look, is it less violent? Because um I mean the founder of Opus Day wrote, I mean, and admittedly this was Spain in the 1930s when things were kicking off, yes, for want of a better phrase. Um but but he specifically wrote that he was building an army for Christ. He called them kind of a hidden militia. Um and he said he was recruiting people that would go into battle against the enemies of Christ. He very much saw this as a battle. So, I mean, the parallels to you know something like ISIS are, you know, that I think it's it's it would be justified to draw certain parallels there. And some people still see it in that kind of frame of mind as well. I mean, if you take someone like Kevin Roberts, so this is the president of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of this thing called Project 2025, which is basically a blueprint for a second Trump term, but it's a dystopian blueprint for basically ripping up the way society has been run, for eliminating basically the entire federal bureaucracy and and and replacing it with people, you know, like-minded people. Yeah. He's gone on record saying that basically the second revolution, second American Revolution is coming, and it will be bloodless, but only if the left allows it to be so. So the kind of the subtext is is that there could be a battle coming. And this guy, by the way, and you might be asking why I'm bringing him up, this guy receives his spiritual guidance from Opus Day. He's a regular attendee to the Opus Day Center in Central Washington. This is one of the most critical figures in American politics right now. And if Trump wins the election, that blueprint will become a reality. I'm not saying that they're going to be able to like to push through their entire agenda, but that's what they want. And so I think sorry, I cut you off in the middle of your question there, but like, but so I think there are some parallels. But I mean it it is in the minds of some of these people, it is a battle that could become violent.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So this is an example of the sort of heights of power this cult or sect has achieved. And I had the opinion, or at least I was under the impression that Opistei was tracing back to the Middle Ages or something. But surprisingly, it's 1920s Spain. And this fellow José Maria Escriva, it's quite an entrepreneurial story in many respects. So from the beginning, could you just say the struggles this guy went to, the influence of Castro, and then coming out of World War II, the development of Opuste.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Franco, you mean, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yes. Um yeah, Castro, I'm not sure he would have uh been a big fan of, but he's a he's vehemently um anti-communist, this uh this this guy. So yes, so um Josimaria Escariba, he was um he was a young priest in Spain in the 1920s, but he was kind of like he was a bit lost. He didn't he didn't really take to the priesthood super well. And actually in the late 20s, he even started to toy with the idea of just becoming a civil servant. Um but then one day on retreat in October 1928, he basically, as he tells it, he he received this vision from God for Opus Day, for what, for this new movement of lay Catholics who wanted to live out the faith more seriously, and a way for them to do it. So basically what he envisaged was just a way for ordinary Catholics to to be much more serious in their faith, without becoming priests or nuns or whatever, to be able to do it in their everyday lives. Now, whether so he he he said later that this was a vision that came directly from God, and God outlined precisely how the movement should look. Um I mean, whether we want to dig into that or not, I'm not sure. I mean, you know, he'd he'd been kind of he'd made many jottings over over the years about you know kind of playing with ideas, and you know, it's my view that possibly what happened on that on retreats in October 1928 was that he just had what you and I would call an epiphany.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Things just kind of came together in his mind. But you know, like um anyway, so for the first few years, he really struggled to get to find anyone to join Elbers Day. Um, I think almost like eight, nine years after receiving this vision, he had a total of 20 members. But the the Spanish Civil War transformed everything, right? So um after the war, for much of the war he was um he was in Madrid for uh uh for a while, but then he escaped, got over the Pyrenees into France, and then he got to the Franco-Held territor territory in the north. Um but then after after Franco won um the war, he returned to um to Madrid and he basically started from scratch. With this extremely authoritarian conservative dictator in power, Opus Day suddenly took off.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Um I mean there's a number of kind of technical reasons that we can get into if you like, but of of why that happened or not, but um but basically Franco saw Opus Day as a movement that was aligned with with his worldview. His worldview. In fact, you know, he had a private retreat with Escalibar um at the um at the palace where he lived. And he um and he described Escalibah as a very very loyal citizen. At one stage he he even considered making making him a bishop. Um Franco the Franco regime provided Elpus Day with money and with operational resources to expand. Um the Franco regime also created an ideal environment for Elpus Day to expand to. So after the war, Franco was extremely worried about the potential for the student population to kind of rise up and and you know basically oppose what his authoritarian and murderous regime. Um what he did was he made it he made it a law that basically all students had to live in halls of residence that were run by religious organizations. And this played right into the hands of Opus Day. So Opus Day set up several Opus Day, sorry, several student residences. Um and um because I mean at that point, if you wanted to live away from home at university, you had to be in one of these so and you know the war destroyed so many buildings. So basically they had a semi-monopoly on student residences. And and in the early years of Opus Day, Opus Day, early years of Opus Day, Escribac had also developed a really detailed blueprint for how to surreptitiously recruit um young people.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Um who he identified as being talented, potentially powerful one day.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yes, absolutely. So so he identified people that would be tomorrow's elite, you know, the the the best students at university, the ones from the from good, you know, wealthy families who were uh sorry, because a big deal, a big um detail of these student housing is also that they were educating people in law um and then in religious practices. Yeah, absolutely. So so people would be so he developed this kind of blueprint for um I mean in many ways, I mean you you kind of mentioned this before. In many ways, there is much to admire is not the right word, but um it's impressive. It's impressive what what he did because during those years before the war, when he was really struggling to to convince people to draw in, the whole time he was watching and learning and developing techniques to basically target people and hunt them down to get them to join. And these techniques are still used today and they're very efficient. After the war with the student residencies, he was able to put this plan into action. So he he basically had an entire building full of people who he could recruit from. And they would keep records on all of the individuals. They would watch them, you know, where they went, who they hung out with, they would they would offer them kind of counseling sessions or spiritual guidance sessions, and they would note down their insecurities and you know what what they wanted from the world or whatever. And they would use these report cards as a way to home the recruitment techniques. You know, they would they would have targeted recruitment techniques for each individual, and it proved extremely efficient. And thanks to the this network of student residences and this um detailed methodology of recruitment, it you know, membership really took off in the early 1940s.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Aaron Powell And they would also the totally secretive uh confessional sessions, yeah, they'd even be recording this sort of stuff and potentially using it as a compromat down the line. It's extraordinarily manipulative and as well hypocritical to what the actual values are supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So so this is um an organization with a veneer of uh faith and Catholicism, right? So and they use that precisely to collect information on the membership. So there were various instances um that I detail in the book where absolutely the kind of the seal of confession is broken. The Opus Day priest is hearing someone's confession and passes that information on to other members in order to, like you say, either just have that information for a rainy day or to better um mould the grooming of this person in order to push forward the Opus Day agenda. Um it's a complete bastardization of Catholicism. It's it's it's a a manipulation of the faith. And and it's it's taking advantage of of people's vulnerability and and and the confidence that they place in the Catholic Church. It's taking complete advantage of that. And that's for the men involved. Uh well and the way I mean that's happening on the women's side as well. So there's um the numerary members are both men and women. The supernumery members, the kind of ordinary Catholics, are both men and women as well. But I'm guessing you're getting onto the this other class of membership.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah, because this is a this is from memory, but I think you allege that as much as thousands of victims over the history of Opus Day have been subject to human trafficking, sexual abuse, and as well drug abuse.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Okay, let's okay, let's unpackage that those various things. Okay, so so f so okay, let's let's start with the the drugs. Um within the numery ranks, this kind of 10% kind of elite core that basically kind of runs the organization, these people that have taken the. The ones with the most power. Yeah, the ones that well, the ones that have taken vows, the ones with most power are the ones, the leadership in Rome.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

The numeries are told what to do. These people are obedient servants, and if it's required that you leave your job and go move to a city the other side of the world, then that's what you do because you've taken this vow. And, you know, um. So within those ranks, every element of daily life is closely dictated dictated and closely controlled. Um these people, you know, for many years, these people were not able to pick up a newspaper and read what was going on in the world. There'd be sections of the newspaper cut out because they were deemed inappropriate. They can't just pick up any book they want and read it because some of them are off-limits. Including like just, you know, like um you know, everyday authors that kids in schools are reading, you know, like Jack. Exactly. You know, like the I'm not sure what what classification Harry Potter is, but um I'd maybe we can look that up later. It's um there is actually a website where you can look up the rating of each book. I wonder wonder what what rating my book will will receive. Um it's um um straight in the fake news bin. Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure. Um but the but within these ranks of numeries, obviously this system of control and manipulation takes its toll. And the numery ranks are riddled with mental illness. Um and I've spoken to many numeries who've told me that vast numbers of their colleagues were drugged. Um, basically sent to uh a doctor, usually an Opus Day member doctor, um, and sometimes with the the director of the residence, so that you know this person's boss goes with them, that this person's opus day boss goes with them, and they're prescribed a cocktail of of drugs, you know, to basically kind of lessen their symptoms and allow them to continue um operating. Um in one instance, you know, this guy was told, went to Rome, and was given this box of pills and told not to read what was on the label, just to take them, you know. It's um um so so yes, there's this um I I would argue that the the problem of the prescription drug problem is widespread and mental illness problem is widespread within the numbery ranks. It's impossible to put a number on it, but hundreds, if not thousands, of people over the years.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And the reason being is that they have so many strict controls on their lives. They are under constant surveillance, you know, the type of mental strain that might put onto a person.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Aaron Powell It's an atmosphere of of constant psychological and emotional abuse. Um and it's it's no surprise that people break down and they crack under the pressure. But at least according to the testimonies I've heard, Opus Day seems unable or unwilling to kind of recognize this very real problem. Um it has to stick to the methodology precisely as it's written down by the founder, because to question that is to question the entire vision and the entire entire foundations of Opus Day. Um so sorry, so that's the first thing. Um the um you mentioned there are the human trafficking element. So there's there's this, there are the normal numeries and the normal supernumeries, but there's also this underclass of membership called the numery assistants. Now initially, this this class of membership was called the numery servants. And Escriba, when he thought up this new class of membership, he was so pleased with himself. He I think he again I paraphrased, but but he said something like, This is the best thing God has ever given us. Because what it was, these were not the elite. They were they these were the opposite. These were girls, and specifically girls and young women, recruited from underprivileged backgrounds who were desperate for work and desperate for a chance in life. They were recruited by Opus Day and put to work in the student residences. And because they were numery members also, they were expected to give all their pay to Opus Day. So what that meant for Opus Day was that suddenly it had a uh it had a workforce for its to clean and cook at its student residences right across Spain that didn't cost it any m any money. And um this class of membership is still in existence today. Um, you know, I travel to Argentina where there is currently uh um a complaint, a live complaint that's been brought by 42 women there um who were recruited from impoverished communities in Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia, across across South America. They were recruited and coerced into Elbers Day as young girls, told some at the age of 12, 13, told they were gonna have a better life and they were gonna move to the city and be trained how to cook and clean and they would get all these qualifications and then they would get great jobs. That didn't happen. They were taken away from their families, um, put in these schools, and basically pushed into joining Opus Day and remained within Opus Day for decades, some of them, uh working 14-hour days for no pay whatsoever, scrubbing floors, cleaning toilets for the elite members, for the numerary members. And the human trafficking element of all of this is that in Rome there was a department dedicated to deciding were these resources, these these people, these women were were needed. Exactly. So so in Rome they would decide, well, in Chicago um we need so many numerary assistants or whatever. And you know, back in Argentina or the Philippines or Nigeria or other poor parts of the world where these girls have been recruited, on the ground, the directors in charge of these girls would be like, hey, um, yeah, we kind of need so we need someone in Chicago, would you be willing to go? And the girls would say, of course, but but but because they knew there was an expectation that they they they couldn't say no. I mean that they felt so so the human the human trafficking element of this is that you know if you look at the United Nations Charter, which um defines what human trafficking is, it makes it quite clear that even where someone is given their consent, if that consent is under conditions of coercion or manipulation, then consent is not taken into account. It's still human trafficking. So legal consent. Yes, absolutely. So it's so so that's the human trafficking element of it. Um you also mentioned you mentioned a third thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yes, sexual abuse. But one step further in the human trafficking, is it the case that when this Filipino numerary servant or numerary assistant as they was trying to go for the modern one. Numerary assistant is is shipped over to Chicago, is her passport then taken from her? Um Because then it's really becomes slavery.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

I do not I can't answer that question specifically. Um I I in fact I'm not sure I've even asked that question. That's a very good question to ask. And I do hope that authorities around the world will be looking into this and asking those types of questions. But what I would say is that when these girls are moved to, these girls and young women, I should say, are moved to um um other open state centers in other parts of the world, their existence there is heavily controlled. Um in many cases, they're not allowed to leave the residence unless they're accompanied by someone else. And so whether they have their passport in the drawer in the bedroom or not, kind of becomes irrelevant. And also what I think it's important to realize as well that in many cases these women are not being paid. So even if they wanted to leave the country and go back to their home country to their friends and family, they don't have any money. They can't do it, right? So having their passport or not, I it's almost irrelevant.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

But they're exploited because of their lack of privilege, lack of education, lack of opportunity, devotion to God. They work fifteen hour days under constant supervision.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Seven days a week, three hundred and sixty-five days a year.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Not necessarily uh glorifying work either. It's cleaning, cooking, not even being looked at by the higher members of the of the place that you're living in because y you're considered lesser than. In fact, it's prohibited to look at them in the It's uh it's you know, it's just so filthy at every perspective. But then sexual abuse enters.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Um Yeah, so there have been various uh uh cases of sexual abuse that um I've kind of picked up on um through my reporting. And it ranges from you know, there was a famous opus day priest in Washington DC that that that groped one of the women that came to him for spiritual direction and later they had to This is McCloskey. This is McCloskey, and later they came to a one million dollar settlement. Um not before he was uh he was he was shipped out the um uh country to escape facing legal charges to another Opus Day Record. residents in London. But I would I mean sexual abuse has been something that has plagued the Catholic Church, I'm sure, for much of its history. Yes. I mean like in some ways what do you expect? You're repressing the very natural sexual needs and urges of an individual. Something's going to give it some stage.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

You're a teenager recruited into this system. You have all these great role models who are filling you with all types of ambition and pride and these great things you're going to be doing. And then you hit your 20s and you're told by the way you've taken a vow of chastity. Never in your life can you experience this thing which you can clearly see elsewhere in the world people are experiencing. And then it manifests itself in just filthy ways.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

And you know so so in in in in one sense discovering sexual abuse within Elbus Day or or by Elbus Day members is not that surprising because every part of the Catholic Church has probably had its own problems over the years. But what's different I think about sexual abuse in Elbus Day is the way that even in recent years following what happened with the Boston Globe scandal and the Vatican's subsequent attempts to to to clean things up and to ensure that abuse is reported properly, despite all of that, even very recently when sexual abuse cases have arisen within Opus Day, there's been this almost kind of instinctive reaction to cover it up. Because what matters most for Opus Day is the protection of its own image. And pursuit of something greater than yourself Exactly and and it's been able to to to cover this up because I mean maybe this is a good moment to get into the structure of Opus Day but um Opus Day operates at arm's length from anything that's going on. And so it it over over the years it's created this enormous web of companies and nonprofits, foundations all around the world that on paper have nothing at all to do with it. But which in practice have everything to do with it. Which you know these it's a completely symbiotic relationship. It's um you know it Obusday decides who the directors of these companies and foundations are you know I I remembered speaking to a a number of people who were directors of these foundations who were you know one guy told me one day he was presented with the minutes of a meeting that he'd supposedly attended where all of these decisions had been taken. And he'd not this meeting had never taken place. Pure fraud it was it was pure fraud. And um so this web of of companies at arm's length from Opus Day allows the organization to protect itself. So it's it's a way of um shielding the organization from any potential scandal or blowback. So I mean just to pick one example there was this um sexual abuse case that arose in in Argentina again um in in um at the end of the uh I think it was about 2019 or 2020 um and at that time the Vatican had um a system in place that if anything was reported at at local level it had to be then reported up to the Vatican had to be formally they had to be formal formally notified. So this guy went to Opus Dei and and basically told them about how he'd been abused by a numerary member of Opus Dei when he was just a kid and basically specifically asked that Opus Day in Argentina report this as it had as it had to under up to the Vatican and it refused because it said well actually that abuse didn't take place within Opus Day it took place at this foundation that has nothing to do with Opus Day even though it's run completely by numeries and and and were basically you know the reason for being of this of this camp that the where the abuse had taken place was to recruit young people for into Opus Day. But it it just allows it to wash its hands and say, you know, nothing to do with us. And that is happening day in day out all over the world.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

We're for sure going to get into how the legal and offshore plumbing allows the scale of this to happen exactly as you just said how they're always at an arm's length from any scandal they can claim ignorance and then you know punish in air quotes the wrongdoers. But before we get there we're just building this this little case for why Opus Day is a cult. You know fundamentalist religious organization that is actively recruiting people for the sole purpose of building more power for the organization to influence the world to become the way that they want it to see politics is involved the Vatican's involved the biggest money in the world's involved but from the beginning they have this like any cult they get into some weird stuff the silice the whipping what is the philosophy behind the asceticism which from the very beginning has been a cornerstone of the Opus Day So the Silus is is this kind of barbed wire that um that numery members of Opus Day and and some supernumery members are expected to to wear around their thigh um for a couple of hours a day, supposedly to kind of remind them of the suffering of of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

The discipline is this kind of whip that they they use. So once a week they're expected to use the whip um and you know usually they'll take off their top and kind of whip their back or their butt cheeks and you know in some cases it draws blood. This is a for the numerary members this is a kind of mainstay something that was stipulated by the founder. He himself was obsessed with corporal mortification. Now I mean I'm not a psychologist but he had a number of issues let's say around around his weight for example he was he had massively fluctuating weight he struggled with weight you know with his weight his entire life and he would often punish his body more at times of stress.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

So I think this was a personal obsession that's a pretty horrific scene in the book where he takes it really far.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah he he kind of I think he basically attaches razor blades to to the discipline to make the suffering even greater and his mother and his confessor become quite concerned about his mental well being at one stage and I I do think there's something there that that that people more qualified than me could could could dig into. But this personal obsession became a rule for everyone else as well within the organization. And certainly for numerie members it's a bit it's still encouraged for supernumeries but it's not enforced but but when it comes to numeries it's basically enforced. The organization would would argue that everyone's free to make their own decision but but that's not quite the experience that I heard.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Aaron Ross Powell So in all the people you were interviewing did you come across people that did not want to do this to themselves or typically did you find that it's a way they can feel closer to God it is another way to justify this whole world that they've decided to fall into Well I think whether they wanted to do it or not is not quite the question.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

They were taught they were told that this was expected.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

So this was part of the um of the vision that Escriva had received from God. So to be a member and to offer this was the whole framework of Opus Day include you know including this corporal mortification the daily corporal mortification and the and the weekly one with the with the discipl with the discipline was just part of being a member and so if you'd taken vows and you know it was just part of what was expected. In fact numries for for many years were expected to fill in these these cards where they had to tick off that they'd they'd recited the correct prayers each day and that they'd basically done the corporal mortification each day. And the director of the residence where they lived could demand this card at any time to check that you were complying with what was expected. Now I mean I would argue that what began as a personal obsession of the founder perhaps rooted in his own mental how should I phrase this but his his own insecurities around his body or or or or coping with stress or whatever became an extra way of controlling people. You know this is it's about controlling the way that people live and it's it's about teaching people that suffering i.e's part of life and that if you feel part of your devotion to God. Yes absolutely and that if and I mean that members of Opus Day are taught that suffering is something that you can offer up to God. So almost by absorbing this suffering in fact I mean brings it closer to Jesus. Exactly I mean and so these people are you know obviously the corporal mortification is the most kind of I guess gruesome and headline grabbing. But at the same time remembers from Da Vinci Well absolutely but uh but uh the people uh are also also expected to like to offer up small um acts of mortification throughout the day. Right. So they're expected to do things like not drink any water for the whole day or to not have any sugar in their coffee or or to have a cold shower. It's this it's a mentality that suffering is a way of being closer to God. Whilst kind of brushing aside the emotional and psychological damage that those acts might have.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

It it it very well could keep at bay a lot of the depressive thoughts and broader issues that you'd be experiencing within that organization. Because I mean asceticism it's very well documented as a way of coping with depression or coping with major, major stress. People will and it's also I think to the point you made from the very beginning emphasizing that the obedience is a huge part of the Opus They mantra if you will and just to unpack that slightly as well I mean not just obedience but um well there's also a system within Opus Day that they call fraternal correction whereby basically everyone is re everyone is is encouraged to report on everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

So if you see one of your brothers or sisters um not following the rules precisely as they were as they were written down by the founder then you're expected to report that infraction up to the director who can then punish the person in question.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

So there's it's so it's there's an entire system of control psychologically stressful I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Absolutely absolutely and and I mean in reporting the book I spoke with many current members and in the back of your mind you're thinking can I do anything to help here? I mean you have to almost set aside I think you're there to remind yourself that you're not first of all you're not a professional you don't know how to help these people and it it's the decision of the individual to seek help. You can't push it onto them but also as a journalist you're there to you're there to report on the story and to dig into what the truth is it's not your role to necessarily become to rescue these people.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

But as a consequence of your book and all of the media that you're going to be doing over the next months to bring attention to this you as an individual could well bring more change to the future of that organization and for all the people that just suffer out of sheer bad luck at the end of the day within it.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

I mean I I absolutely hope so but I I I'd also like to um to stress that my book would not have been possible if it weren't for um for the a huge community out there of former members who are active online in places like opusliberos.org which is the Spanish speaking um kind of community there's also on Reddit there's a a community of former members but also I think a critical piece if something happens with Opus Day, if the Vatican intervenes or if criminal charges are brought it will also be thanks to what has been happening in recent years in Argentina with this group of 42 women represented by a lawyer called Sebastian Sal who himself is a former numery who have have basically raised the awareness around many of these issues. I mean so my without their work and without their testimonies the book would have been a shadow of what it is. It would have been mainly about the bank and the flows of money but thanks to to them this it's it's it's become much my and I I hope that collectively we can all bring an end to this clear abuse and control.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Nice Gareth we do have a lot more to get to I'm conscious of the time so I just want to make sure we can make the most of it the reason that the book got on my radar at all is because on LinkedIn I follow all these people writing about some type of financial chicanery right which is absolutely the center of the book the way you found it but then as well no cult no organization can scale to the heights that Opus Dae has without this offshore plumbing so questions about Banco Popular and the finances of organization when do they get involved and how significant was that vehicle at scaling Opus Day so um so Opus Day managed to get its claws into Banco Popular in the 50s after finding a piece of compromising material about about the about the chairman and they used that material in order to muscle the way and to basically they basically hijacked the bank and very quickly they reconfigured the bank to effectively turn it into a cash machine for Elpus Day to finance its expansion to every part of the world. What year?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

So um the takeover took place over over a number of years it took them a little while to kind of to really to to buy up the shares it needed and to engineer its takeover but by 1959 they were in charge. It took them maybe about five six years to to get there. In terms of quantifying it I mean I when I was writing this book had a bunch I pieced together a bunch of of records from the bank and I had in my mind that we were talking maybe one or two hundred million dollars that had been siphoned from the bank but more recently it's become apparent that the figure is much much higher. Well what what happened was that the chairman of the bank um Luis Belastavan used his position to divert the bank's funds to three foundations um three Spanish foundations which then became critical vehicles in the in the in the um expansion of Elpus Day so these vehicles like you know we're talking before about the arm these arm's length foundations and companies on the face of it had nothing at all to do with Elpus Day. They were given like anodyne names like the Foundation for educational excellence or yeah like whatever right but they they effectively became vehicles for passing money from the bank to Elpus Day initiatives all around the world including in Argentina where these girls in fact the the girl the the the school where many of these girls were recruited was directly funded by the Spanish bank. So that was one way but also the chairman in addition to creating these foundations he also carved out a bunch of shares and hived them off into other foundations that were held by Opus Day and they also made soft loans to and there were you know I also trace in the book you know a series of financial flows between Spain into Switzerland and then on to um tax havens like Liechtenstein and Panama and Curaçao where the money then went on to other Old Stay um foundations in other parts of the world. So I think we know at least a billion dollars was was siphoned from the bank and I would think probably that's an underestimate.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Okay. At its height, what did Opus Day's assets look like?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

Okay I mean at its height I mean we we don't know the answer to this question because Opus Day refuses to recognize or provide a list of foundations that are linked to it. I I have directly challenged Opus Day to provide me with a list of affiliated foundations it has refused. It in fact it refuses to acknowledge that any of these foundations are in any way linked to it. And so we we simply don't know. But okay in the US I managed to trace about almost a hundred nonprofits that were linked to Opus Day and between them they had assets of about a billion dollars. Now the United States is not even a large country for Opus Day. The biggest countries are Spain, Mexico, Italy, Argentina so if that's how Opus Day looks in the States we can only imagine what Elp's Day looks like in these other countries. And and you know like what I hope is that my book is a jumping off point for a lot of investigative reporters out there who will do the digging. I simply didn't have the time and capacity to dig into Mexican shell companies. Exactly but there are many stories to be written there right and and I I sincerely hope that the book is just the start of this and that that journalist out there will will will dig more into this and maybe one day we'll be able to answer that question. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

What what about your sense for how diversified their investment portfolio was?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Because uh they owned lots of property if I remember correctly property was the was the the main thing they had I mean they had this um castle on the banks of like Lake Como they had this like 17th century French chateau and you say had they still have? Sorry no sorry that so so that specific property the the um property on Lake Como they recently sold to a luxury brand. Right um LVMH right yes exactly and the plan is that LVMH um will refurbish it will kind of do this up and renovate this this place into a luxury hotel. We don't know how much they paid but we do know that the um the project for the hotel into including the cost of buying it is about $100 million. So that's one thing one property that they no longer have that they've recently sold and the money is now parked in one of these these foundations um and um but it also it still owns this 16th century chateau in uh on the outskirts of Paris we're recording this in London and about 50 miles from here they own a very large country manor. In the US, you know in Boston they've got this Tiffany mansion um that also has been put up for sale. Around the world they have a vast property portfolio but they also have um stocks and shares and bonds and cash um yes so so so it's a diversified portfolio but um I think property is it's pretty real estate heavy let's say and most of the buildings the numeries live in they own as well so again the the buildings where the numerary live Which is their offshore network they are.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

It just happens that could very well be traced back to Banco Popular if someone goes into the work.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Trevor Burrus, Jr. There are I know for a fact that that there are various residencies around the world that were financed directly by um Opers Day. Sorry, that were financed directly by the bank.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

Aaron Powell And how significant were tax exemptions as a religious institution to their ability to expand?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

Aaron Powell Well, I can only really speak to the US, because that's the place I looked into this in most detail. But absolutely, I mean they I actually spoke to the guy that um designed this system of foundations in the US, and he told me that absolutely, I mean, one of the main reasons was that it was tax much more tax efficient. Up until that point, Opus Day had been investigated several times by the IRS there, and this allowed them to basically stop the IRS from prying too much. But I I would argue that deep down Opus Day is a political, not religious organization and that it and that it shouldn't have these exemptions. Now I'd leave it to tax lawyers and accountants.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

If Scientology can get it, I think we've got no chance of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

But clearly, I mean clearly tax laws around this kind of thing need to be tightened up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

Why does it a religious institution get tax laws, period? Yes. If the state is separated from God, period, why do they get that? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

Um but at the same time, the US it's It's weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

It feels like they're falling back into more religious conservatism rather than the general trend away from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

And certain things, and I mean we'll see how the book is received in the US. But but it's become it's been it's become impossible to discuss certain aspects of religion without being labelled as either anti-religious or in this case anti-Catholic. And that's just it's just lazy, it's stupid, it's cheap, it's it's it doesn't engage with the facts in any way. Um I'm sure I'm gonna be labelled as like an anti-Catholic or whatever. And it's absolutely They're gonna put you alongside Richard Dawkins, video atheist. I'd I I'd encourage people, just look, read the book, go and buy a copy, or or or if you don't want to give me any money and my publisher any money, go and borrow it from your local library, read it for yourself, and then let's have a serious conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

And the best part about it is that it's written in a narrative style. So it's a very exciting book to read.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

That was important to me, because I mean the best I I'm a I'm a great lover of nonfiction.

unknown 1:08:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

And the best nonfiction is is are those books that that that have a strong narrative structure and that you know where the characters come alive and you get a s, you know, you get a sense of the story here, right? I didn't want it just to be a long list of facts and events. Um and and and yeah, I thank you for that. That I'm glad that comes across.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

No, I I really mean it. Like we were talking about earlier, I'm seeing Bradley Hope this afternoon. I think he's the king of this billion-dollar whale, blood and oil, he's great. These are as exciting of books as you could ever read. Absolutely. And they're real.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:21

And and and Bradley actually um he gets uh um an acknowledgement in the book. He so I I stopped was toying around with this idea. I'd never written a book in my life before. And I found out that Bradley lived near to me, and I I asked him whether he'd be open to meeting for coffee one day, and he agreed. And I told him about this story, and I was like, Bradley, how how do you like how do you get like a book deal? How do you like get and so he basically walked me through the process of like, well, you need to find an agent first, and then you need to put a proposal together and blah blah blah blah blah. And so actually, I'm very thankful to Bradley for having such a legend. Sat me down and taught me through the process. But yeah, absolutely, his books are amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Has he proposed that you do a podcast series on Project Brazen for Opus Day?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

We have um we've recorded one and that will be out soon or may already be out.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

It's perfect, it's right right in their sweet spot. Yeah. Um since the collapse of the bank, how has this affected the financial situation of Opus Day?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

Um clearly the collapse of the bank has been a major blow to Opus Day. But serendipitously perhaps the um the um this blow has come at a time when it's found another rich seam of cash in the US. So Opus Day has become more closely allied to a group of billionaires and to a group of people that control huge pools of dark money, which have given it a new financial lease of life. So at a time when it's lost this incredible resource for Opus Day, i.e. the bank in Spain, it's found another resource. But the irony of this new alliance is that many of these people are they're all devout Catholics, but they're openly hostile to Pope Francis and his message of compassion and questioning capitalism, this kind of thing. And so publicly, Opus Day says it it loves the Pope and is obedient to the Pope and all this stuff, whilst at the same time allying with these people who are openly hostile to the Pope. But the the people um who've been linked to this thing called the Red Hat project were basically they're looking past Francis and they're looking to influence the next conclave to elect a more conservative Pope because they're horrified at the direction that Francis is taking the church in. Yeah. Um so it's so medieval.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

Like Pope Francis is a very conservative man. It's it's like why is it not conservative enough?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

I think what this project has opened my eyes to is that I mean, I think for many years I kind of looked at what was happening at the Vatican and things like the Pope, and you kind of you accepted it at Faith's value for as this deeply religious organization, and this guy is the you know, has been elected by his peers. But the more you dig into it, I spent quite a long time in uh I spent quite a long time talking to cardinals and archbishops, and yeah. What you realise is that basically the Vatican is just as political, if not more political, than than any capital city out there, right? And and so yeah, that there's there's a lot of political complexity going on, let's say at the Vatican.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

I imagine you have the type of access now that could justify you know a nice New Yorker piece on the lobbying within the conclave for the next Pope, which would make for an interesting story as well, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

Yeah, although you know what, it's speaking like frankly, Ryan, like I I I'm also keen to move on to something completely different. Okay. I I'm kind of I mean, this might not happen because because of my like expertise in this subject now, I might I might have to like write about this for pigeonhold for a decade. But at the same time, like I'm just a little bit sick of religion and cults, and uh I'd if I do do another project, another book, even I'd like it to be about something completely different.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Um the from your reporting, it becomes pretty clear they were so brazen with their fraud and embezzling, opus they with Banco Popular. So I wanted to ask you which is closer to the truth? One, that they were just so overly confident in their ability to cover it up because of the secrecy of the organization, or two, this type of financial behaviour is far more common than we realise. I think both things can be true.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Um I think they believed they had a they had put together a system that would never be exposed, that could would allow these flows to to remain hidden for eternity. Um But they what they weren't banking in was the collapse of the bank and the opening up, critically for me, of the of the Banco Popular Archives, which has allowed me to piece together this story. Had the bank not collapsed, this story would have been impossible to write.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

And serendipiously wouldn't have even come across your desk.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Um but to your point about you know, is this just the tip of the iceberg with, you know, and I'm not just talking about religion here, but but about, you know, I know you've had many other guests who are much more are much better better um qualified to talk about this, but but I mean we're here in London, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

I mean London, London is the centre of of of these types of hidden financial flows and I'm talking to Stephanie Baker on Friday, who just wrote a book about essentially the oligarch's grip on London. Yes, yes, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

The fact that it happens in the the There's just let's call it for what it is as well. I mean, the complicity of the banks and the law firms and the PR firms in in enabling this, when everyone knows what's really going on, but everybody wants to get their fee and their cut of of what you know like it's um people have to earn a l a living, I guess. Yes, that's true, but like it's the job of the government and the regulators to clamp down on this kind of activity, it's that people aren't tempted to make a living this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Also, the hypocrisy of opus they to exploit these same mechanisms, the offshore plumbing, that allow for the scale of all types of sinful behavior. You know. I mean, there's no surprise that a cult is riddled with hypocrisy, but nonetheless, you know, it is it stands out. So every corner of the internet is full of conspiracy and secret society intentions. In researching this book, how did it make you think more broadly about secret societies and conspiracy?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:21

I mean obviously, like any rational journalist, I've I've viewed the world of conspiracy theories with Yeah. Um over the years. Um But I mean, this was literally a real life conspiracy hidden in plain sight. This was a high street bank where everyday Spanish, you know, normal Spaniards would be, you know, paying having their paychecks put into this bank, or they'd have a mortgage from this bank or whatever. Who knew that for so many years it was funneling all this money to this crazy religious organization? That's trying to change the world. That's trying to change the world. Um there are still many crazy conspiracy theorists out there. I'm sure the vast majority of them are absolutely false, but every so often the conspiracists are onto something. But you know, but it's I also don't want to kind of do a disservice to the book because you know the book has more than a hundred pages of endnotes. It's really meticulously sourced and fact-checked and legal. And like so, so like it's not a YouTube video of a couple of red apps. It's not a YouTube video. I mean, and and there is too much of that. Um but you know, but what I would argue is that there's a there's still very much uh a critical place for investigative journalism in society. People need to be digging into this. And sometimes they'll you know, people might will dig and find nothing, which is fine. Um, but every so often you'll find some amazing story as I did through sheer look.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:14

I was surprised to see Michael Segrew and Peter Thiel both feature in the book. Uh these are people I admire a lot, and I know they're religious, but having consumed a lot of their work, I would have just thought that they're not interested in the worldview Opus Day is trying to create.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

Um, I mean I reached out to both in the reporting of the book, but neither of them wanted to talk. Um so I can't really speak to what you know how they think. But I think that's that way of thinking is maybe not quite the right way of thinking about it. I think we need to come at it from a different angle, which is that Opus Dei has targeted people like Peter Thiel because, precisely because he's influential and has money. So we shouldn't look at it from what are Peter Thiel's beliefs, what is his belief system and what what you know what drives him. Opus Dei is looking at him and thinking he's someone that we want on our side. And so I guess there's an attempt to groom him in some way. Whether or not that's successful, I do not know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:29

I haven't spoken to Peter Teal's gay as well. Yeah. Which makes it that much more surprising to see him being affiliated with people who would call gayness a sickness.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:40

Yes. And and and I'm sh so so there was a an opus day priest who was a close friend of of Peter Thiel, and the two of them would go on um walks around the I think they call the Marin the Marin Mountains um just outside of San Francisco, um, and they would talk about all kinds. I'm sure the priest barely ever brought brought up um homosexuality because and this is the hypocrisy of it all, that these people say the they have these deep-rooted, kind of very strong beliefs, but they're very selective about how they express them or who they expect to express them to, because uh the main thing they want is access to power and access to money. And so to some people they'll say one thing, to other people they'll say another thing, and so and so I'm sure Peter Thiel's um sexual preferences were something that was almost consciously not raised in order to not push him away.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:44

As a part of the manipulation to get what they wanted. I think you answered this question by reframing it rather as not reporting on Peter Thiel or Michael Segrew's opinion on Opus Dye, but rather Opus Dye's interest in them because of their either cultural influence with Michael Segrew or power, sheer power of Peter Till. And I wanted to ask you: does putting these names in the book does it just excite the reader because they're names that we recognize? Because is there a possibility that having someone's name associated with a story might actually exaggerate their role in it?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

Um I think they're important examples of the type of people that Elpus Day want to go after. And also I think my reason actually for including Peter Thiel, and I don't want to imply that he in is in any way involved in Opus Day, but for me it was important because he is a symbol of success and and entrepreneurship, and you know, he's had incredible um professional success through through his life. I wanted to kind of illustrate to the reader the type of person that Opus Day targets. And also and also what's important as well is to demonstrate the access that Opus Day has. If Opus Day, an Opus Day priest is able to go on walks one-on-one with Peter Teal through the mountains, yeah. One of the most in-demand people like how the how the hell did that come about? It just it just shows you how extended and how well positioned the Opus Day network is. Um so I think that's an exact that's one of the reasons for including you know names such as Peter Thiel in the book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

Finally. So in response to the Da Vinci Code, which somehow we haven't brought up, but you know, they brought the Da Vinci Code, the book, the movie, brought Opus Dye into the into the living rooms of the whole world. In response to this, Opus Dye commissioned movies, stories, and a lot of counter-messaging to suppress that movie, counter-narrative the story. Do you have any sense for what they're going to be doing to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Um I so we're recording this before the book is actually out. Um and by the time listeners listen to this, um, it may well be quite clear what their strategy is. I think it's gonna be harder for them to dismiss the book, he says confidently. Because um because the Da Vinci Culp was quite clearly heavily fictionalized. And and you know, like they took elements of Obes Day that were true, but then you know, distorted them. Made them feel like an ancient cult. You know, like basically, as is Dan Brown's right as a novelist, he's not pretending to be writing a he's not writing a non-fiction book, he's writing a novel, you know. Um so it was it's quite easy for them to kind of brush that aside and to to basically twist it into a positive narrative for them. And they, you know, one one of the most senior um Opus Day leaders in the US actually told me that the that the Da Vinci Code was the best thing that had had ever happened to them because it allowed them to use that as a news hook to to to recruit and to basically represent themselves as no such thing as bad press. I mean, there there have been other um exposes of Opus Day over the years, but you know, like the one in Argentina, um more recently, the Financial Times, Antonio Cundi at the Financial Times has done some excellent reporting on um the abuses in Ireland and also the um organization's recruitment of children. Um I think in those cases it's quite not easy, but the strategy is for Opus Day to say that these are one-off instances of abuse. You know, this is not what the organization is about. My book is very different because my book basically exposes uh this systematic abuse. These are not glitches in the system, this is how the system is designed. Um and so it's gonna be hard for them to just say this is these are just one-off instances. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of victims of this systematic abuse. And so that's not gonna be an option for them. I suspect they'll try to label me as like non-religious, non-Catholic, so he doesn't understand the calling that these people feel, which if you read the book, like is an absolute non-argument as well. Um we will see. I mean, the right thing for Opus Day to do is to hold its hands up and say, we fucked up. We're really sorry. We're gonna absolutely reform the entire system. But you know what? I don't believe it it can do that because Opus Day is built on this understanding that Escariba received a vision from God. And this this vision was like meticulously detailed. He wrote this down, and so everything that the organization does today is based on these foundational documents that he wrote and that based on the vision that he received from God. So to challenge anything is to challenge the entire infrastructure of Operation is to challenge the foundations on which the organization was built. I think the organization is trapped by its own narrative. It can't reform. Um I know there are calls for it for to reform from within, but I I I believe that it it will be unable to reform. I think the Vatican is going to have to intervene.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:01

How cooperative were they in your research?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:03

Oh, I I I um over a period of about two years, I had dozens, if probably more than a hundred, conversations with current members of Elbus Day, including some of the most senior members of Elbus Day. I agreed that the meetings were off the record, and so um, well, that some of the meetings were off the record, and so I'm not gonna name who they are, but your listeners should know I've spoken to people right to the very top of the organization. So they were they were cooperative because I believe they they had to maintain this veneer of like, oh, we're transparent, we've got nothing to hide. Of course we'll answer your questions. Yeah, come in and see. Um but early this year we got to a point where I started to ask more pointed questions, and it became apparent to Oprah's Day that I was going to be writing about things like human trafficking and um Dark money and manipulation and control. And rather than address those claims head on, Opus Day chose to sever contact with me entirely. A few weeks later as well, it was kind of interesting. Um, a few weeks later, the Financial Times came out with this this new scandal in Ireland, and Opus Day issued a statement saying, we want to listen to victims and we want to learn so that we can we can address whatever's happened or whatever. So it put out this statement dealing with this, what it tried to frame as localized abuse. But then a few weeks after that, it put out a statement about my book. It hadn't read the book at all, hadn't read a word of the book. Um, and it put out a statement saying that my book was completely false. And like, so on the one hand, you're putting out the statement saying you want to listen to victims, on the other hand, you're saying that everything in my book is lies. My book is based on the testimonies of hundreds of former members. You're dismissing the um testimonies just out of hand, you're showing absolutely zero willingness to listen and to reform. So I think there was a sense within Opus Day that my book was much more serious for them and was a potential existential threat. And the only way to combat that was to just come out all guns blazing of like these are all lies, without even knowing what the lies supposedly were.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:31

It's pretty rich to claim it is all false when you haven't read it. Well, but obviously you would if you're a powerful organization that is very comfortable with lying.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:40

Well, but but I don't know. I I I would take Umbridge with that because I I mean I think I mean I'm used to operating in the corporate world and maybe Elpista will take offense that I'm comparing them to a corporate. But like these days, if any major institution was pr was presented with accusations of human trafficking or anything like it, they would immediately pledge to uh cooperate with the authorities and to have a thorough investigation. Opus Day have done ha hasn't hasn't done that at all, hasn't pledged to even look into what what the allegations are. And I think that's quite telling. Um I think it will only be it will only well I mean Opus Day is not in a position to investigate these matters by itself. It should not be allowed to investigate these matters by itself. The authorities, whether at the Vatican or the police in the countries where it operates, they should be the ones that do a thorough investigation, not Opus Day. Um and we will see. I hope that there are people in positions of power out there who who can begin an investigation and and start to really kind of I've just scratched the surface here. There's so much more to be found out.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:06

Are you nervous about any physical threats?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:10

No, I mean I I often get uh get asked about this, and uh maybe I'm being naive, but but no. I mean I what what I'm I'm aware of is that there'll be threats online because there are trolls everywhere. And this is not something that's unique to Opus Day or to the world of religion. You know, there are totally trolls everywhere, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:33

There's all unhinged people out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

Yes, and so I I'm gonna I'm sure I'm gonna receive all kinds of abuse online. What that's kind of comes with the territory, I guess, of writing this book. I hope that doesn't turn into anything more, yeah. I mean, but I'm yeah, I I I yeah, I think I think I'm okay. If it is cross-and also like, I mean, this is all kind of almost silly and kind of theoretical, but and I'm not implying in any way that Elvis Day might think of doing that, but that it would be the worst possible outcome for Elpers Day. If something were to happen to me after this book has come out, then the conspiracy theorists would go wild. Um so I don't think it's yeah. Um but that said, there are crazy people out there, and I guess I will be kind of glancing over my shoulder maybe slightly more often, but no, I don't feel um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:25

Just how powerful is Opus Day right now? Have we seen the heights of Opus Day, or given the comments you made earlier about their connections with the sort of new conservative, rich, powerful right in the US, that they in fact might still have further peaks to come?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:44

No, I I I hope we've seen the peak of Opus Day. I hope that the book will expose the organization for what it really is and will force the Vatican and other authorities to intervene and to possibly, you know, look into criminality and press charges and bring people to justice. But right now, and as we said before, we're recording this slightly before the the book comes out, but like right now, Opus Day's proximity to power, especially in the United States, the most powerful country in the world, is at an unprecedented level. Like, so Oprah Opus Day provides spiritual formation to the head of the Heritage Foundation, who is currently drawing up, who has drawn up this plan for how a second Trump administration will look. This guy will and this guy has been also talked about as a possible chief of staff for for Trump as well, this guy, Kevin Roberts. Um that whole project is being financed, or at least part financed, by another guy that's affiliated to Opus Day called Leonard Leo. This is the guy that has stacked the Supreme Court with conservative judges, and this is the guy that has facilitated the overturning of Roe v. Wade. These two Opus Day affiliates are arguably two of the most powerful men in the United States right now. And if if Trump wins the joint plan for reshaping society, according to this dystopian Opus Day vision that they've been we the two of them have been weaned on this Opus Day philosophy, uh they're gonna if Trump wins, they'll there'll be a green light to push that agenda as far as they possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:44

Yeah. Which looks like what? Hypothetically, it all goes up to plan according to them. What how do they change the cultural landscape of a US society?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:54

Aaron Powell Well Leonard Leo has gone on record on record saying he wants to, and this is a quote, he wants to crush liberal dominance. And that means everything. So he's talked about, you know, like we need to crush liberal dominance in the media, in education, on university campuses, in the culture more generally, obviously, like in the judiciary and and and politics. This is the re-Christianization of the world that Escaliba talked about. Um, whether the people want it or not. I mean, they Trump is the vehicle for doing this, but Trump is not being elected on a mandate to push through Project 2025. Trump is being elected on who knows what mandate, he's not even really got a plan outlined. Whatever's most popular. But they intend to use him as a vehicle to push through the very undemocratic agenda that that that I'm sure if we put this to a vote in the United States would be voted down, like absolutely, you know, decidedly voted down. In many ways, there are many parallels, I think, to in the US right now, to Spain in the 1930s. Opus Day has hitched its wagon to a divisive, corrosive, authoritarian streak within society. It's um fomenting kind of dissent and division, it's fueling the culture wars with a view to arriving one day at its at this um this this land that it's you know, i i it it's um this is exactly what happened with Elpers Day in the 30s and 40s with Franco. Um some people would might take offense with me comparing Trump with with Franco and obviously there are very you know there are huge differences. But from the point of view of Opus Day and Leonard Leo and Kevin Roberts, what Trump facilitates is very similar to what Franco facilitated for Opus Day back then. Um so yeah, I think there's there are certain certainly parallels.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:20

Amazing. That's a perfect place to round that out. If you wouldn't mind just one or two personal questions, we'll see how quickly we can knock them out. As a podcaster, a journalist, and an author, you're right to very much media is your life. How do you see the changing media's landscape of the next 25 years? And then you as a producer of this media, how do you best position yourself to take maximum advantage of it?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:47

Oh, can I just say I don't know? No, you know, I mean yeah, but I I mean like I I'm I'm kind of torn because part of me looks at the media landscape and thinks and part of me feels extremely pessimistic because I kind of maybe I'm I'm looking back at things through rose-tinted glasses, but I, you know, like part of me thinks, you know, when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, every newspaper, every UK newspaper had a correspondent in Paris and Moscow and Washington, all over. And I'm and that was replicated by newspapers in every country. So every c every country's newspapers would have correspondents everywhere. And you'd have people on the ground reporting because the business model is for media for newspapers is broken, um, that's gone away. The cost cutting now means that, you know, foreign news is quite frequently covered by just some guy in London who's taking the feeds from the newswires or whatever, who has no real kind of nuance or understanding or or ability to kind of report on the ground. And I find that really depressing and really sad, and um I don't know what the solution is there. I know lots of people are trying to find a way out. So part of me is is not very optimistic at all about the future of journalism. That said, there's this whole new breed of podcasters like yourself or and independent journalists who are doing really great work out there. Um, you know, like the internet has enabled anyone to have a voice and a platform, and that is both good and bad. I mean, that means a lot of crazy people out there that can push the whatever. But it also means that if you know you as an individual can can dedicate your life to serious investig investigative journalism and just post it online. And if you have a big enough following, people will read it and people will consume it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:50

Um so there is But you don't have the same guardrails which the institutions had to actually go through these hard measures to make sure that what was actually said in the other end of it was in fact factual and whatever style you could put over the top of it was purely for style sake, not actually to change what the underlying story was.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:09

No, absolutely. And I think so this kind of fragmentation that I was talking about of that's enabled people to like create independently their own stuff, which can lead to extremely good journalism, it's also given rise to these lunatics. And and yeah, and and unfortunately, I think as the media becomes more and more fragmented, it means that people are just going to live in silos and just listen to the type of stuff that they want to do. I mean, I'm not saying that we should or can recreate these monolithic kind of newspapers or broadcasters that I guess you and I grew up with or whatever. But but there was something in that, you know, there was you know, people striving for balance and like having, you know, the the like you said, the guardrails in place that we're gonna if we if we're moving further in this direction of a more fragmented kind of independent media landscape, um the dangers are that yeah, it's gonna become a big shouting arena of people able to say whatever they want, even if it's completely false.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:18

That's the the the negative, probably much more realistic take. But I do also see a really, really optimistic future in it as well, where the quality of stuff, if you are willing to sift through the crap to get to it, might be better than ever. Better stories, better told, better put together, but you have to sieve.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:41

Totally. And who who's got the time for that? And also, like we're being bombarded the whole time with with with material and with and and with um yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, so if you're being already been being bombarded by the algorithm on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, your Twitter or whatever, or should say X, sorry, um then was the incentive to go out there and find it for yourself, you know, like you've got to really it's gotta be a conscious effort to be like, right, I'm gonna go find it, but people should and people people must.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:16

Wild. Finally, Gareth, uh what is the role that serendipity has played in your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:22

Well, I mean, like this entire book is has been born out of sheer luck, right? I mean, like the bank collapsing, me being a financial reporter, sent to report on it, and and then going back to Spain a couple of years later. I mean, absolutely, I mean serendipity has has this would not have happened without serendipity. But that said, and and serendipity is there the whole time in life, but I guess it's what you do with that serendipity. Like, me happening by chance on this amazing story was just the start. And to turn it into a book that is legally defensible and uh and is takes a huge amount of work. So, yes, serendipity is the basis of so many things in life and is absolutely the basis of the was the foundations of this book, but then um a lot of hard work has gone into it to make it to make it what it is. Um, but yeah, I mean I mean tell a bit like you just have to go with the flow in life, right? I mean, you never know what's around the corner. Um I would love to write another book. Um ideally uh something that isn't in any way related to cults or to to Oprah's Day. Um but I'm still waiting for that story to serendipitously arrive on my lap. I mean, it's kind of funny this whole process of like looking for another idea, because where do you start? Like, what do you I mean like yeah, so I yeah, I I guess I'm trying to look for things, but I keep finding myself going down, you know, dead a dead end. I'm hoping that like this story, something will just at some stage fall into my lap and it will just Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:19

I'll just know. Incredible, mate. Well, it's a bloody good book, and it will be out when this podcast is out. And everyone should read it. And thank you so much for being so generous with your time today.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:33

Thank you for having me, Ryan.