Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Welcome to Speak for Change with Thomas Sage Pedersen! Our mission is to inspire and promote positive and lasting change in our local & global communities.
Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Ep.105 Tiffany Singh | Using Art as a tool for Positive Community Change and more!
Find Tiffany:
http://www.tiffanysingh.com
https://www.instagram.com/tiffany.singh.artist/
About Tiffany:
Tiffany Singh works to position the arts as a vital contributor to health and well-being by utilising a fine art framework. She does this by applying social practice methodology to develop creative frameworks that prioritise the sharing of artistic knowledge driven by education and wellbeing. Singh aims to sustain community and indigenous art forms, which transform women and youth into strong change-makers for sustainable poverty reduction. To mobilise the strength of small artisan communities and social resources for stronger socio-economic development at local levels. Applying sustainable and ongoing initiatives where both artist, institution and community can look at the positive social impact they can achieve through the arts to find unique and personal solutions driven by cathartic and therapeutic processes.
Welcome back to speak for change podcast. I'm your host Thomas Sage Patterson. Our mission is to inspire positive and lasting change and our local in global communities. I'm excited to share this episode with y'all. Uh, our guest works to position the arts as a vital contributor to health and wellbeing by utilizing a fine art framework. She does this by applying social practice methodology to develop creative frameworks that prioritize the of artistic knowledge driven by education and wellbeing, applying sustainable and ongoing initiatives, where both artists, institution, and community can look at the positive social impact they can achieve through the arts to find unique and personal solutions driven by cathartic and therapeutic processes. Our guest is like a long lost friend. I met her in New Zealand at her art exhibit, um, and you know, it was, uh, amazing. Her art is amazing and she had this beautiful installation feel bad. I can't name it right now.<laugh> um, but we name mid in the episode and, you know, it was like a room where you can choose what color you want to have the room become. And I just remember, you know, being in there and experiencing that and actually feeling the impact, uh, that art installation had on me. And I went back into my hotel room and actually created a musical piece and a video inspired by that. And in that being said, you know, Our guest Has inspired me through this podcast through this episode to, you know, go forth and do my own artistic, um, experience. You know, just hearing how she talks about art and social impact has inspired me to find ways where I can use my own creativity and artistic ability in a way where I create social impact. That all being said, she's an amazing artist. I am honored to introduce Tiffany, sing
Speaker 2:One,
Speaker 1:Tiffany sing. Welcome to speak for change podcast. It's an honor to have you on
Speaker 3:Kira. Thank you very much for having me. Oh,
Speaker 1:It's it's an honor. So we met at the, what is it? Internal reflections exhibit at the tape Papa museum in New Zealand, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Total internal reflection. And I think that might have been in 2018 or 19.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I, I should know this. It was my wife and my honeymoon, so, you know, I should,
Speaker 3:I said, no, this it's when my show worked.<laugh>
Speaker 1:2018. Yes. Um, yeah, definitely. And man, that, that installation was so inspiring. Uh, it was beautiful. I was amazed by, uh, colors and associating with the chakras and a lot of these interesting ideas. And so that being said, how has, you know, wellbeing, spirituality, um, self care and art connect to, for you, you know, how do the, how do those worlds connect for you?
Speaker 3:Um, I think one of the things that I'm really good at is, uh, acknowledging what I can't do. Yeah. So I, I can't draw, I can't paint<laugh> um, I can't sculpt as an artist. There's a whole, uh,<laugh> again, of things that I can't do. So kind of by process of elimination, um, I've really found my niche of what speaks to me and where I think I can be useful. And I think that comes from my Buddhist practice quite significantly of bringing that and bringing all my worlds together. So they're not operating exclusively from each other is looking at my skillset and looking at the 21st century and identifying where I can be useful and of service to humanity within that space. So it came to me, uh, from when I was very, and I went to art school and I was a total failure. Um, and my tutors hated me and I was just this non fit as an art student. And one of my mentors from New York actually said to me, why don't you go to India? Why don't you go to India and like, feel out this relationship that you have to your spiritual side and see where that comes from and find out who you are because I'm part Indian part Samon. Yeah. Um, from my dad's side, but I didn't grow up with either of those cultures as a part of my life. So I went to and went to India as an adult to really explore, uh, those aspects of self, um, and dive into that because I always, I always thought that I thought differently growing up in a Western context and it wasn't until I went to India and realized that my mind was intrinsically from an Eastern philosophical perspective and realized that I actually thought as insane as the majority of the world,<laugh> not the minority of the world. It was quite a life, um, changing moment to actually understand that there were different logics mm-hmm<affirmative> and different ways of thinking and different pathways to get to particular points because I'd been educated through a Western context. Um, those other narratives and other philosophies and other ways of perceiving hadn't really been a part of my formal education. Yeah. So going to India and, and realizing for my own self that I was so Indian<laugh> and my tastes, my behaviors, my aesthetics, um, my mind, it was such a life changing moment. And the most, um, sublime thing for me, I guess, was that Indian India as an entity and as a people recognized me as being one of them. So it was quite amazing as a 25 of year old woman to go traveling and to hear all these horror stories about women traveling on their own through India. And like people trying to like put fear into me around this trip that I felt that I had to do. Right. And then going there and just not experiencing any of that and having, and then entire culture acknowledged that I was a part of that and wanting to teach me about my own self through my relationship to being Indian was a real, it was such an amazing heartwarming thing to really see people who were like, so, so in their culture, acknowledge that within me and see that within me. And it really opens something inside me to be like, wow, okay. It was very permission giving to be able to explore, um, Eastern philosophy. Yeah. You know, the, like, um, the non-attachment the nonlinear pathway of mind, you know, like the life death construct that past present future exists simultaneously. Like there were all of these notions that I fundamentally believed in and understand, but I never was in a situation to verbalize that with speak about those truths for my own self in New Zealand. It, it, yeah. It wasn't really the right context for me to operate from that place. But when I went to India, it allowed me to be the me, I knew I always was<laugh> it sounds so weird.
Speaker 1:No, no, I, I, you know, I, I resonate deeply with that as someone who is, uh, mixed race, you know, I'm half white, half black, uh, and you know, I was raised in a very white Western minded household where, um, you know, I never got to experience the black side of my life until adulthood and really understand that and, um, dive deep and really reclaim that part of myself. Right. And I realized like, you know, like my thinking similar to, you know, a lot of, uh, the black community thinking definitely around art and expression and all these different things. And, um, but I wasn't raised with any of that. So it was, it was really a spiritual experience for me as well. You know? And it sounds like for you, you know, and so I guess, how, so you, you're saying it gave you permission to express your yeah. Yourself.
Speaker 3:It did. And then the, because I wanted to stay there. I, I was, I, I meant, I was meant to go for three months in between my third year and my fourth year of university. Yeah. And so I went for three months and it was just like going home. It was just like someone opened, gave me the key to the front door and was like, not cuz they all felt basically the parties in there. So I just walked into this place that was just, you know, so alive and so vibrant and so full of sensory experience and so raw. And so like life and death right in front of you and it's not hidden and it's not masked. And it's just, it's such a beautiful way to understand the true nature of existence because it's just so in front of you, it's not sanitized. It's like, you can talk about everything. Like there's not a lot of taboo, like, you know, in certain places of course there is. But for the most part, from a Western mindset, it was really challenging for me. But it made me push through my own conditionings in a way that never would've happened if I hadn't have gone there. And I think having to really examine your own notions of right and wrong based on the culture that you've been brought up in is an incredibly valid experience because yeah. Really makes you reevaluate. What's important for your own self and it takes you out of a context, um, that where you've had judgment from coming from a particular mind. Yeah. So it enables you to be able to sit in a different place with your own consciousness and, and question it quite deep, um, and kind of like throw it all out and then like very carefully put back the things that you want to, and kind of rebuild yourself. Yeah. From a mental and philosophical point of view, which is what I felt I did from 25 to 29. So I ended up being there for three and a half years. I was, I just didn't go home. So, um, my parents were stopped<laugh> that was thrill. They were like, what do you mean? You're like, just get to staying in India. It's like, yeah, neither of them had ever been there. So it was quite a scary thing for them. Yeah. It was like, you know, the unknown and you hear all the stories and it just wasn't like that for me. So it was also a place for me to be able to operate from a purely intuitive point of view. Um, being a woman being on my own, just really simple for like, what ritual do you get into? Like what street do you walk down? But you, you start doing that enough and you build a relationship with your own intuition. And that becomes an invaluable navigating tool throughout life. Something that's never left me, but I, I read cognize that to stay in India, I would have to do something, uh, to be able to contribute because I came from New Zealand where there's a wealth of water and food and land and shelter. Right. And it didn't really seem right to go to a place where there's not enough resource for everybody and then take from people who were already there. So it was really important for me at that point to keep that journey going was to find a way to be useful in that context. So I ended up working for an organization called Indico, which was, um, a really interesting organization that took, um, NR is non-resident Indians or people with Indian descent, um, who had degrees and placed them in the field in India, um, to work on collectives or women's empowerment or, um, through arts and culture primarily, um, to build stronger communities. Um, so there were different initiatives. One was like rebuilding cut after the earthquake, the round of cut or, um, what I was doing was, uh, working with different women from the villages because the men would come from the cities to buy their embroidery or the awares and they go to the women individually. So we were putting the women into collectives so that they had more bargaining power as a woman's empowerment entity so that they couldn't be kind of, um, used against each other. They had more power together. Um, and those initiatives are still today. So they've been really, uh, considerable, sustainable, um, entities that they put together that we put together. So it, during those processes, another one was, um, I got Asian paints to donate me a whole bunch of paint. Yeah. And like drew up a mural to go on like a long wall and went and painted it with the kids. And the kids just got the paints and went crazy and created this amazing like of, and it was kind at that point that I had this like huge kind of realization that it, the outcome was kind of secondary to the process in terms of the health and education aspects that it was bringing to the work, that it was more important as to what it was doing than what it was. Right. And coming out of like a Western fine arts art, where it was all about like the saleability of the commodity object. Yeah. That, for me, that shift of thinking towards the arts and towards my positioning as a contemporary artist within the arts was huge. So, so it kind of like really shifted my lens and my awareness of like, not only the power of art to empower. Yeah. Um, and to support people through therapeutic process. Um, but also what it means to be an artist in the 21st century where like, from my point of view and like, I'm never gonna paint like Rafael, I'm never gonna like<laugh>. So like my, like, like I'm never gonna do any of that stuff as, as beautifully and as crafted as the masters have done. Yeah. So like, given that you can't like, you're never gonna reinvent that wheel. Yeah. What does that mean now when we've like moved through so many art historical narratives, you know, like we've been through expressionism, we've been through impressionism, we've been through pop art. We've like been through modernism, we've been through post modernism. Like, what does that mean today in today's world to, to be valid in an art context? What does that look like? Like, you know, as like, as a visual, as an aesthetic. Yeah. But actually what does that mean in terms of humanity and in terms of the global positioning and in terms of being useful, um, and being able to like make a mark and leave a commentary in today's landscape, in a, in an art historical context. Um, especially as a woman, because, you know, like if, if you wanna look back at art history,<laugh> that whole like narrative of art history really, since the beginning of time has been told through the lens of, of the male gaze. Yeah. So like most of the museums, most of the stuff that we see that perception of what was happening in history through art is from like 50% of the world.<laugh>
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's really problematic to me
Speaker 5:<laugh> oh, so problematic. So
Speaker 3:Our whole kinda basis of history is based off like, you know, uh it's yeah.<laugh> it's problematic. Oh my God. So that was also like another thing as like a woman, um, wanting to explore what it means for women, um, art historically through culture, through craft, through all of those things that haven't really been considered fine arts that have been kind of left off the table. Yeah. Um, that are so critical in sharing cultural identity and cultural histories. Um, how do we elevate that space and bring that space back into the fine arts cons and what does it do for these people when you do that? Like, how does that empower them? How does that create education and outreach, uh, and wellbeing, um, and what does it mean for community community sustainability, um, in terms of a social ethic and fine arts today? So it was a pretty loaded experience for me. And that happened between like 25 and say 30 I'm now 43 mm-hmm<affirmative>. So, um, after that massive journey, I then attempted to go back to New Zealand and finish my arts to go. Um, and that was quite traumatic<laugh> to be honest, that was like, know, cause it was just a completely different mindset about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to be useful that space and be an artist, uh, in today's world. So it was a really, it was really challenging for me to try and find my feet and my voice, um, as a young woman who wanted to talk about, um, feminist issues and equality and, um, craft and, um, spirit<laugh>. Yeah, it was, it was really challenging, um, and not make a commodity based work that went to a dealer gallery that was for sale. So I've, I, you know, I don't really make work that's for sale. So, um, for me, it's not really about what I do. It's the space that I create as an artist to enable other narratives to happen through. For me, that's really the artwork is, um, being the bridge or facilitating the framework. Uh, the, that can be useful, whether that's through, um, uh, like recently I've worked with, um, children. I, I did a project in New Zealand with 15,000 decile one and two children. Wow. So that's the low socioeconomic groups. Um, that work was an education kit that is around hopes and dreams. Cuz a lot of, uh, children in these situations are never asked the question, what are your hopes? What are your dreams? Um, a 12 year old saying to me, what's a hope miss was hopeing. It was just, yeah, gosh. And that project came out of India that came out of doing a similar thing in India and it being equally as heartbreaking, cuz I was having these, these conversations with the kids in the slums and they were saying that they wanted to be like doctors and S student Watson. Like it was heartbreaking cuz you knew that they never had the pathways to facilitate that. Yeah. But um, in New Zealand it was equally heartbreaking because these kids have access to education and they have access to healthcare and they have the pathways, but they'd been so disempowered that they'd never really thought about the future that they were so kind of, this is my life now this is how my life will always be. What, what, like what's, what's kind of, what's the point, what's the point in having their dream because chances are like, I'm never gonna get there. So it was kind of heartbreaking and in the opposite way. That makes sense. Yeah. Um, so that project is, we go into the schools, it's held under the festivals, the art festivals, the art festivals facilitate. So we go into the schools and we've developed an education kit where there's a mind map and there's questions like they draw themselves. And then around that, there's a mind map that ask them, what are your hopes and dreams for yourself, your family, your community, the world and the environment. Yeah. And they fill that out in written language and then they turn that over and they translate that into visual language, using their cultural. Yeah. And then they're given one piece of fabric in the paint and then they paint a flag and then we take all of the flags and stitch them together and make an installation out of all of the flags. So when you put them up, there's like thousand kids, voices that are above you and it's super powerful cuz it's totally unmediated. And it really speaks to the social inequalities and the challenges that these kids are facing. Yeah. Um, not through like wouldn't no agenda, there's no political agenda. There's, it's like completely unmediated. So it's like straight from the mouth, the vapes. And it's very, very powerful. Um, gosh, but it also enables them to create a space to think and yeah, where there's no judgment, it's not marked, it's not judged. Uh, it's a space for them to be honest about what's going on. And it also offers a therapeutic process of them to be able to work through some of these ideas and maybe for a moment, just see a larger world that they exist in. Um, and then there's like, I do a presentation at the beginning and, and talk to them about the way that they are the future. And there will be a time where they are the ones voting and they are the ones that are making the change in the world. So what are those changes? Like what are they wanna see? So there's kind of like a, almost like a handing over. Yeah. So like encourage them to look into the future and see where their autonomy and where their power lies. Yeah. That they, they won't always be children. They won't always feel like they're outta control of their situation. Um, and giving them that lens to look for it, uh, is, is super invaluable. And that's, that's that real connect between the wellbeing in terms of creating the therapeutic processes. Um, and the education through the R because what happens in most places is that, uh, in terms of funding, in terms of like political divide, the, the finances are usually siloed. So you've got like arts education and healthcare. Yeah. So a lot of the times where you've got things that are operating, um, within those spaces, which for the most part are usually the most valid. Yeah. Um, because that's where they're combining those things together, where you get huge impact, um, and where those shared outcomes could be so beneficial, but because it's related to funding, the shared outcomes don't often happen because no one wants to share the outcome cause they don't wanna share the resource.
Speaker 1:Oh that
Speaker 3:Makes, so that's why you've got into this like super siloed situ where everything's doing and everybody's doing everything independently because they don't wanna share the funding. Yeah. So what we are trying to do is like reposition contemporary art to be in the middle and supporting health and education to be able to create funds and see the validity within that space so that there's more funding for shared outcome. So that all three sectors are developing together. Yeah. Rather than an isolated way.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:So it's like it's loaded. Um, it sounds, I mean, it's just the way that it's been set up for so long. Yeah. That, um, and I don't know, like, you know, potentially in the past it's been the only way to develop it, but I think, you know, given that we now operate in a global context, you know, we've got refugees, we've got global warming, we've got so many things that are making people move. And so many like traumas that as a human race, we need to deal with. We now need to look at the ways of working together collaboratively to really utilize the funds that we've got for the most impact across sector.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's kind of, that's the most important thing is like looking at where those intersections are. Um, and given that there's limited resource for everything, what happens when you put teams of people together from all of those places? Yeah. That enable greater outcome with greater resources for more people to build on as well.
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 3:So it it's kinda like, it sounds so logical. Like it makes so much sense, but it's like, you're just fighting against the way that something's been done for so long. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I,
Speaker 3:A lot of those conversations is like, well, like why is it done? And the answer is like, because that's how it's been done. Like market is the best way to do it. That's just how it's been done. So, so I think, you know, in some ways COVID and um, global warming and things that are like enabling people to look at a global humanity that people can relate to other people's trauma because it's happening to themselves. It's like, that's not something that's happened a lot before. Yeah. You know, humans are very good at focusing on the differences between us. Yeah. We're not great at focusing on the similar between us as to which there are many, many more<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's you, I just want it's it's crazy. Like I am just in awe of everything you're saying right now. Like it's insane to the, I, if you, if you look down at what my notepad is, I'm just have like so many notes, so many questions it's I feel like we can talk about so many things and I love this connection based thing. I mean, thinking politically about using art as a connection between these different revenue streams. I mean, that is remarkable genius, but the thing that hit me the most is when you described art history, cause I'm a, I'm a musician, right. So I studied music in school and I learned like music history. It's really similar to how art history is. You know, every, every new type of music is a, almost every reaction of the old, you know, it's kind of just continues down this path of almost freedom evolution. Yeah. Right. And this idea of almost, what do you call it? You said, I think you had a changing the narrative from a commodity based work, right. To almost like thinking about the space that work is in, rather than the work itself and that social impact it will have. Right. The social impact it will have on communities. People really understanding that it's not about the work itself rather. It's about the experience that work will bring to a community. Right. And I think we all intuitively artists and artists, communities, nonprofits here in the states everywhere. I feel like we understand that intuitively like this idea that art does change people. I mean, that's why people buy art, right. Is because they have an emotional connection. I mean, supposedly most of the time, hopefully, you know, we, when you start getting to like fine arts, we start getting kind of this, um, gatekeeping, like I call art history, like Western art history. Right. Because if you look at all of art history, it's, you know, so diverse, there's tons of black artists out there. There's tons of indigenous artists out there. You know, art is nothing new. Right. And, and Western art history when you're, when you're are learning about that, it, it, you're saying it's all men it's, you know,<laugh> and, and, um, yeah. And it's, it's a very dominant culture. And so this
Speaker 3:Idea, but it's defined, it's defined our idea of history. Yes. And that's so problematic.
Speaker 1:It's extreme. It's extremely problematic. I mean, we're, you know, and I'm just gonna relate this to the experience here that we're, we're dealing with right now, you know, this month here in the state's, uh, black history month. Right. And so it's like understanding black history, all this stuff, but black history is the us history. I mean, it is American history, you know what I mean? It there, you know, and it should be, it's not in the curriculum though. It's only celebrated in like specific times, but even though there have been black people in all of history, right. So history, and I think this, this new way of thinking that you're bringing up, I think this is the new thing. I think this is the new thing we have to start. We're forced to think community minded, we're forced to think collective minded, um, because of all these pandemics global warming things that we caused, arguably, you know, um, through this old paradigm of thinking and art expresses what we're going through. And I, you know, I've been asking myself the same question about music and art. Like where do we go from here? You know, we've done a lot of things, but like almost everything, right. You know, it's like, you're not gonna go back and reinvent, you know, you're not gonna be those things. Uh, but the most organic thing to really reflect on a society, I think right now is that we are going through tons of movements right now, social movements, all at the same time, we're going through tons of ideas and bringing like unveiling these things. And art is almost acting as a space to be able to rediscover ourselves and understand ourselves and, you know, and that's what you're doing. I mean, that's literally what you're doing and, uh, it's beautiful. And I just, I'm, I'm so excited about this, this, this whole, this whole conversation right now, because of, you know, I think this is, this is where art is going. You know, art is being used as a way to what I think intended way almost. It's like it's being used to connect people. It's being used to bring people together to bring healing, to ask the deep questions, to, you know, find our purpose, to find our place in the world. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:It's absolutely a therapeutic process, um, for people to engage with, um, not just from the lens of the artist to like, you know, have the space to create, which is great. You know, like I, I feel very privileged to be able to operate as an artist and have the funding and the time to do that. But at the same time, it's, it's more about facilitating the therapeutic space for people that don't have access to that. That's more important. That's way more important. Like, um, one of the, the some projects that I did was, um, recording stories from recent the resettle community into New Zealand. So we don't have refugees in New Zealand once you are granted refuge in New Zealand, you're granted in New Zealand passport. So we don't you're then a New Zealand citizen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So like, we like formally, we have, we don't have refugees. We've got people from refugee backgrounds, right. Because they're now New Zealand citizens. So I was working with the resettle community in New Zealand and recording their stories of what it's been like to come to New Zealand and resell and we recorded them. And then we gave them, gave the stories to really prominent people in media and New Zealand who were either on the TV, on the radio, or like really familiar voices that like the whole country easily recognizes and gave them the stories to read. So we re the narrative from the resettle community and remove any accent. So we removed any racist bias from, from the audience by listening to the story. Yeah. By represe the story in a local accent from people whose voices were recognizable. And
Speaker 1:That's brilliant
Speaker 3:That the, it, like, it was very interesting because it, it, it really, firstly it, people didn't dismiss it as fast as they would've because they thought, and they are, that they were listening to stories from new Zealanders. Right. Yeah. So they felt a kinship and a connection to want to listen to their stories of new Zealanders. And it wasn't until they kind of like got into the story that they were like,<laugh> hang on a second. Like with that
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Um, but it was fascinating. It was really interesting. And it was a, like, it was quite a diversive work. Like it, it did kind of two things it like really generated to and compassion from a lot of people because it enabled them to listen to something that they wouldn't usually listen to. Yeah. Um, through their own ignorance, um, by admittance a lot of the time, but just by opening out that narrative, it was in a show, it was at the, uh, Headland sculpture on the Gulf. So I think that year there was like 55,000 people that went through that show. So that's a lot of exposure to people that don't really have a lot of opportunity to come across the counter narrative. Yeah. Because I don't know what it's like in the states, but in like New Zealand, like the people that are, that are on the news that are on the radio that are writing the articles for the newspaper are all the same people. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. So you only have like, even though it's cross media yeah. Um, online, whatever, it's only the perspectives of a few people, and that can be really damaging because you think that you're getting information from like varied and vast places, but it's still through the perception and yeah. Of owning a few people. So there's not really a lot of opportunity to actually encounter the cross narrative. So, and that's like, unless you know how to access as communities, or you have friends in these communities, how do you actually find the counter argument to that? Yeah. Or the truth to that? Or like, how do you do that? Even if you want to find out, like, how do you do that? So art is also like a huge space of that, of actually being able to offer people from an education point of view you the other side of the coin. Yeah. That quite often they don't have the chance to come across. And there's, there's a lot to be said for taking the artwork out of the gallery for that, of putting it into public space of taking it out of that. Like the white cube, that's intimidating that like you've gotta pay to go into that's high brow. That's like historically filled with a whole bunch of stuff that can be quite challenging to understand and unpack. Yeah. You know, with artist statements that have a lot of long words in them. Um, and it can be quite intimidating for a lot of people and I totally get that. So it's also about, you know, finding spaces to enable people just to hear the other side of the coin, which like, again, it sounds really simple, but a lot of people don't have access to that or aren't even aware that they're not getting that. Yeah. They're not like ignorant cause they wanna be, they just don't know where to kind of inform themselves to the other side of the story. Yeah. Like that works like that. Like hugely empowering, not only to the resettle community, to be able to actually share their side of the story. Cuz at the time that that work came out, there was a lot of political conversation around increasing our quota. Yeah. And there was a lot of resistance to it in New Zealand because of the cost because of how much it costs a taxpayer. So, and there was no counter narrative to that. There was not about okay like, well where are the success stories? Like where are the stories from the people that we've resettled? What are they doing now? Like most of them have like educated themselves, got degrees are giving back to the community. Like where are those stories? Yeah. You know, like you can't just present half of the argument and think that that's OK and ask people to like make choices and vote and like, you know, do you know what I mean? Like yeah. You can't half of the things that are coming about is because people don't know the truth, they don't understand what it is and it's not their fault. It's not actually their fault.
Speaker 1:It's clever marketing, you know, it's
Speaker 3:Clever marketing. So that for me is like a huge space for the arts it's to be able to like present at the counter narrative, to offer a space where people can go to like inform themselves and connect to communities and connect to like their fellow humans from like a position of tolerance and compassion and love and care to actually in be able to, and make informed decisions and outside of the status quo of what we are being informed with. Yeah. And that's hugely important and probably more valid now than ever before.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean that, I completely agree. And you know, it's crazy how the arts does, does that Al you know, it does open your brain. It does open your mind to possibilities. If, you know, you let it. Right. And I think focusing on this community aspect that you're doing, I mean, everything you're talking about is like about, you know, helping the community, helping your community with art, using art as service. Right. And that you are talking about before. And I just think that's such a beautiful perspective, but I don't think a lot of artists have,<laugh> have that perspective who I've talked to. Right. It's all about they're, they're still in the mindset of, this is my art. Right. You know, this is my art, I want to sell to a gallery. That kind of thing. Um, so what counter
Speaker 3:Limitation though? I mean, I, I can't do that. I can't paint. I can't, I can't
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 3:I'm a artist like
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah, no, no. That's
Speaker 3:Like, I can't be, I can't be that type of artist. Right. But I have a creative skill. Yeah. And it's like, that's where it's been really important for me to learn where the best application for that is mm-hmm. Yeah. And it was really challenging cuz when I went through art school, I didn't know if the arts were the right place for that. Because at that time, 20 years ago there wasn't the space for that. It was very misunderstood. Yeah. It was like, but like where's your thing.<laugh> Where's the thing that you, I like don't have a thing. Oh my
Speaker 1:Gosh. That's so that's that's so that's so wonderful. So I have one question here and then we're gonna move on to the second round. Is, is, uh, what advice would you give artists right now who are trying to find their voice or just, just trying to find their way through the art, their art career?
Speaker 3:Um, I would say just what is it that you think is the best and most important thing you have to offer other people and how can you bring that through a arts practice? How can you be useful? How can you be useful for your skillset? Given the state of the world is in it the moment, how can you be useful? Cause I, I, I'm not sure the world needs more objects for sale. I'm just not<laugh>, I'm just not sure we need that, you know<laugh>. Yeah. But at the same time I do understand the validity, you know, like cultural objects are incredibly important. They tell history like yeah, craft objects of like embroidery and, and history. They tell a story, they have a, a moment in time, they mark art history. They're totally important. But I think we really have to acknowledge that it is the 21st century. Yeah. And I think that we need to look for would until the conversation that we wanna leave for art history in the next hundred years. Right. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What do we,
Speaker 1:You know, I, I love that and yeah, that sounds so beautiful. And I'm, I lied there's one more question now that<laugh> um, and, and that is what, so that being said, right. I know a lot of artists, you know, need, they need to make a living doing their art, you know, they need to. So what advice would you give them in regards to how they can go about making a living with their art and serving the community? This is more of a practic
Speaker 3:Question. I think there, I think there is gonna be a huge, huge push for, uh, the arts that do sit in between health and education. And I think that if we can prove our validity as a creative community to and support those two operating sectors, then it really does increase our value massively because we, you don't just become this thing out there on the site. Yeah. That is, uh, a commodity object for people with disposable income. All of a sudden we are right in the center of being able to support and be inclusive and uphold and empower people who really need it. But also the sectors that are flower during, at the moment, you know, health and education don't have enough resources. Yeah. If we can be in the middle of that and pull that together, then our creative currency becomes super valuable.
Speaker 1:Mm. I love that's perfect. Uh<laugh> right. We're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna go into the, a question round. All right. Welcome back. All right. So here's the first question. Um, do you have any quotes that you live by or think of often?
Speaker 3:Um, yeah. I'm Buddhi so there's a few<laugh> Um, all things shall us is pretty out there for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:Um, um, I'm also a parent, so, you know, I, I try and sit in the space of patience and tolerance and all that good stuff. So there are a few things that my mother taught me of like, you know, in your own time and you'll find a way<laugh> These things seem to sit with me quite a lot at the moment during homeschooling. Um, but I just think, you know, the nature of impermanence is really important that you moments of fleeting. Yeah. So if we can come from the best possible place in that moment towards other people, you know, like it has to be the best way that every action counts, you know, like it's not, oh, well, like whatever, I'll just do that. And there's no accountability. I think that we really need to get back to like the, be the beauty and the present moment and recognizing each other in that again. Yeah. That, you know, I, I was talking to my friend the other day and I was like, the last time I saw you, we were in LA dark in India. And we had to sit up the whole night listening to music because you had to catch a bus out at 6:00 AM and we had no computer, we had no phone, we had no time piece. We just knew that when the sun came up, you had to go. And it was like, that seems like such like to live like that. Yeah. Seems so far away. It seems so much longer than 15 years. Years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, cuz we are just so kind of like the time pressure of like devices and being contactable all the time and the work pressures and like global time zones and all of that kinda stuff. Like I still think that we just have to kind of get back to the moment and be present and that, that presence will bring us back to our communities and to each other again, that, you know, we won't just all be sitting on the bus, like listening to music and on like, you know, like, yeah. I just remember so many beautiful moments of meeting people and just like looking at them and having a connection with people mm-hmm<affirmative> at present moment is so important. I mean, that was, it was like that with you. Like, yeah. I like, we just had a moment in the rainbow room and it was just like, I felt like you were an old friend and I'd never met you before in my life, you know? And here we are, you know, so you never know where those things can go or like the calmer of those connections or any. And I just, I just really think we need to get back to each other.
Speaker 1:Mm. I love that. And the feeling was mutual. It created a whole song. Crazy.
Speaker 4:Yeah.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, that was, oh man. So beautiful that
Speaker 3:Stuff's cool. That stuff it's like good for the spirit. It's good for the soul. It's nice to feel connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like, it makes you feel a part of the world, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's hard to do right now. It's hard to do right now with, uh, and you know, it's, it's a weird time, but I think, you know, like we were talking about before the interview, I really do think this time is, is a time for us to see parts of our reality that we, that we maybe didn't wanna see, you know, well,
Speaker 3:It's possibly like a really important reminder of what is important too.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. You know, and I think connection has been one of those things where, you know, I am naturally, I think I would consider myself introverted. Like I like to be in my own company. I'm really good at being alone, you know, like that kind of mentality. But even through this, I realize like, wow, there's such value to connecting with people and really connecting with them and like learning from them, you know? And just the sense of connection. Because I think that is, I think that's part of our humanity that maybe we've lost through, um, this colonizing period of time. Um,
Speaker 3:And I also think it's one of the things that I love about travel and work was so important for me to bring my children on their journey because like some of the most beautiful moments and the deepest connections I've had with people have been in places where we haven't shared language.
Speaker 4:Yeah.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:You know, that you've just had this moment or shared a meal or had an experience with someone and there's, there's such a deep knowing and a deep understanding and a deep sharing of like humanity, even though you're from like totally different places, totally different like worlds, like not just geographically, but like completely different cultural landscapes, you know, language, everything aside. But you can have these incredibly Hoig moments with people. Yeah. Um, and my children were brilliant to that. You know, kids are amazing at that language is
Speaker 4:Irrelevant.
Speaker 3:It's so irrelevant that, you know, they travel to Korea and Thailand and they've had like amazing friendships developed from kids that they have never been able to talk to.
Speaker 1:I think that's brilliant though. I mean, it kind of reminds me of your, your limitations bit. Right. Like, you know, I can't do this, I can't do this, but I can do this. It's like kids are still learning language. Right. They're still kind of figuring out what words and what do they mean? All they know is body language, all they know is kind of like just being playful and reacting.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Joy and kindness and love and fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like,
Speaker 3:It's not a bad way to live. Yeah. No<laugh>
Speaker 1:Man. I need, I need their advice. All right. Here's the next question? What is something you believe that other people think is crazy?
Speaker 3:<laugh><laugh> where would you like me to start?<laugh> um, the part I'm cause again, I'm Budds past present. Future exists simultaneously. Oh beautiful. Um, and the cycles of life that there's no beginning and there's no end, you know, it's like the, the cons I really struggle with the concept of death in the west because there's so much fear around it. Yeah. It's so scary. Um, and it's so hard for people to process because, um, it's removed so quickly. Like there's not a lot of time, like, um, my son on heritage, like if someone passes away, we have the body in the house. Yeah. So we spend time with the body. Uh, you see the body, you grieve with the body, you pray with the body, you sing with the body. Um, and it's an incredibly healing process, but I find, um, the fear around death really traumatic for the people. Um, I've done a couple of works around that. I've trying to create spaces for people to come and process that and make you come to the studio. And there's a table of natural materials and you make a string for someone that's passed away. Yeah. And you hang out on the wall and we pray with them for like, it's, the studio is open for months and then we pray with them for months. And then people come back and they collect their strings. And we have a, um, a fire ceremony at Dawn and they put the strings on the fire. So it's a, it's a process of remembering when you're making the string and then honoring when you are and meditating with the string. Yeah. And then release when you pass it over. And it's an incredibly cathartic therapeutic process. Um, in New Zealand, I've actually handed the project over to hospice. So they now actually I've trained the therapist and they do it in their hospice, um, section in New Zealand. So I'm gonna actually reach out to hospice in the UK and see if I can go and talk to someone about bringing that project here. Because I just think at this time, um, there's also kind of like a taboo around talking about death in the waste. Like yeah, you can kind of talk about it initially. And then after that, it's like, it's not, it's not like my conversation to be like, you know, um, and I think that's really sad. Yeah. That there's not that kind of like expression that's, we're not free to discuss locks, um, and the effects that it has and the trauma around that, because sharing those type of things, again, it's super healing. It's like holding onto that stuff from feeling isolated and that stuff is really damaging and it's such a part of life, you know, like it's the one given from the moment that we're born and it's the one thing that there's so much struggle around accepting. So yeah,
Speaker 1:It's, it's, I think it's interesting cuz it is Western culture, the two things that are the, the most, the real things that happen are change in death. Right. These things are like, you know, you can count on things changing<laugh> right. You know, always count on things. Nothing is permanent, but yet our society is so based in this idea of permanent, even in the art world, right. We, you spend like people spend so much money trying to preserve a painting, right. To try to like put chemicals on it, to try to make it so it doesn't degrade or you know, age. Um, but I remember seeing this art piece that was brilliant. It was, it was meant to age. So it was like, like things would fall off and then would like really reveal something else, you know, and slowly and slowly until the last part would be revealed.
Speaker 3:The, um, the Buddhist works that I make with the flower pressings. Have you seen those? I like those. So that's made from like earth and uh, flower dyes and flower pressings and real gold and real silver. So the materials are meant to be the offerings. Yeah. But the, um, the flowers and the flower di they fade out over time and the metallics oxidize. So the works actually like they change over time.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting. Oh, that's awesome. See, that's that's I like, I like that because it does, it, it accepts that. And I think there is a movement at least here with like some, you know, self-help people of, you know, they're using like the stoic philosophies of, you know, accepting death and, you know, making death, your friend and all, you know, there's like a lot of movement here toward that. Um, but you know, it's not nearly like, you know, systemized or mainstream or anything like that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's, I mean, it's the, the amount of times that we go out for dinner with people and my, my mom and my husband are like, can you just, can you just stay away from the death thing?<laugh>
Speaker 4:<laugh>
Speaker 3:We don't really know these people yet. Can you just stay away from the,
Speaker 1:I would love to be at that table. I would love to be at that table. That'd be great.<laugh> I would go there a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh man. Totally, totally. I'm there with you. Um,<laugh> when you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do
Speaker 3:Really? You want, I smoke a joint.
Speaker 4:<laugh>
Speaker 1:That's good. That's good. Yeah. That's that's uh, that's a good answer.
Speaker 3:Go through a walk, connect to nature and smoke a joint.
Speaker 1:<laugh> that's like, it's like the most peaceful answer.
Speaker 4:<laugh>
Speaker 3:Love it.
Speaker 1:All right. If you, if you had to gift one book or books to somebody, what would it, would they be,
Speaker 3:Oh,
Speaker 6:<laugh>
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a biggie. Um, Probably, um, the Buddhist book of living and dying mm-hmm<affirmative>, which I think is an incredibly beautiful text. Um, and as a, as a book to read, um, that's not text, uh, the God of small thing by Ren. Roy is I think is an incredibly poignant and beautiful book.
Speaker 1:What is it called? The God of small things.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's beautiful. I, I love the title.
Speaker 3:It's Beau it's an incredible book.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is a fiction or nonfiction
Speaker 3:It's fiction. Okay. But who knows? I mean, she is actually a political author. She write around politics, but this is one of her fiction books, but who knows of like the blend. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 3:Know, salmon rush is another favorite of mine. Um, yeah. I love his like surreal blend of like, it's amazing That really walking the line of like, um, magic and surrealism and realism.
Speaker 1:And you know, I dig that. I dig that. Yeah. I'm gonna have to read that, uh, read those books<laugh> yeah. Send me any recommendations. That sounds like a good, good read. Um, what advice would you give yourself 10 years ago?
Speaker 3:Probably the, I did give myself<laugh><laugh>, which was just like, I just, I got to a point where I, I think after coming back from India and just seeing like the suffering that goes on mm-hmm<affirmative> that I was, I felt cuz like the thing, the thing that made me leave India was not being able to deal with the suffering. It was the fact that I had privilege to be able to leave it. That's what really messed with my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It wasn't like, it was like, I just couldn't make sense of it. I couldn't make sense of like how some people have so much and how some people have so little, I couldn't couldn't find my way through that. So me, it was just like, right. I've just gotta narrow it down and just like be very mindful of the, the power that I have in my moments to make a difference. Like I can't change, like the scope is too big. Mm-hmm<affirmative> it's too scary. And if I think about the scope I get it's too much. Yeah. So I just have to kind of like in every moment in every action, try and be super mindful and do the best that I can do in that moment. Yeah. And like I've, I've tried to really operate from that space, like in everything and like in my art practice life and just, you know, even like the food that I'd buy or just, didn't like just try and come from a conscious place of like, you know, cuz I think there's a lot of power in the decisions that we make. Yes. And like if we kind of like can get our sense of autonomy back from feeling like we have ownership over our decisions, that's quite, it's quite an empowering space to be
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That we can make the change through the, through the little decisions that we make, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that at that's wise and I think those are the real things that matter. Right. The little things. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. I think when you look at, uh, different events in history and different movements, we have this idea that, and just life changing events that it's just dramatically happened one day, right. Something just dramatically happened. But in reality it's always an accumulation of smaller things happening. Right. Little small details, like kind of happening. And if you look at that in your life and a lot of wise people talked about, um, small, the, the power of the small, right? The, the greatness of the small, you know, that, that idea that, you know, just one person or little actions can build, you know? And even if you look at it a very, uh, mundane everyday level, you know, like subscription models, right. For, uh, businesses, right. People who, when you subscribe to like, you know, some TV show thing or something over time, those little, little payments in your bank count, they start adding up. Right. You know, it's just next thing, you know, you're paying like$300 a month for all these little payments or coffee people buy coffee, like all the time, right. Like two bucks, three bucks, they're like, uh, two bucks or three bucks, not that much, but when you spend that money every single day for 30 days, I mean, that's, that adds up pretty fast. Right. And so it's a logic that think we tend to overlook for some reason
Speaker 3:And the power of the collective as well. Like yeah. You know, we're still a collective entity, we're all human. We're all here in this time and space. We're all holding this time and space.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that is so, yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Um, definitely here in, I don't know, I don't know what it's like other places, but here in America we have this like rugged individualism concept, right. This idea that we don't need anybody we have to, we can do anything ourselves, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Um, that kind of mentality. And it's like this anti, you know, communist rhetoric, anything that talks about collective or community always gets shot into, you know, oh, you're talking about communism or
Speaker 3:It's been, it's very divisive though. I mean, I think it's a great strategy. I mean, it's kind of like the divide and conquer thing.
Speaker 1:Right. It's, it's exactly the divide. It's exactly the divide and conquer thing. And you know, it's like such is connect from reality. Right. You know, because in reality, like you're saying, we are a collective, um, being, and yes, there's a truth to, you know, finding your own individual color within that. Right. And find your own individual place in that, but to pride yourself on, on a higher pedestal than everyone else in the world, it's, it's this, it's a illusionary thinking that, you know, is that is perpetuated by capitalist thought too. You know, it's perpetuated by this idea of, you know, you can get a ahead by stepping on people and that you'll get rewarded for that in our society. So it's, you know, rewarded financially and by, by the other people in that community. And so it's, it's an interesting, I, you know, what, what do you think, what, what are ways that we can show the importance of the collective of mentality?
Speaker 3:Well, I think that, I think that's where we get our power back is in the small decisions that we make. Yeah. You know, because that everyone makes a decision to not support something. You know, that very small decision can have a huge impact. Eh, you know, like I understand that, uh, it to be able to make choices. Yeah. I do understand that. Um, but I do think at the same time, it's not even choices towards like buying things or owning things. It's, it's choices to how you like treat people and behave to one another and that kind of stuff, you know, like all those little things change the lay landscape in terms of the social ethics that we exist in.
Speaker 1:Oh, I completely agree. And I, you know, I'm just thinking about even locally, you can just make little commitments to think, like, how is this gonna impact my community? How am I gonna be part of the community? Like for just little purchases and just like, just being like little dis, like how, what businesses you go to to get that cup of coffee, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, we're gonna go there, you know? Um, uh, are you gonna support your local community? Are you gonna build community? Are you gonna decide to like talk, say hi to someone in the morning or say good morning to somebody, you know, like little gestures that really do strengthen, I think the ties of community and, you know, I was thinking about that the other day. Cause you know, I have a, I own a music school and one of the locations in is this little shopping center. Right. And we just got a new location and this, uh, an art center<laugh>, uh, which is really cool. Right. Um, but it's really interesting. Cause when I'm in the, I've been at the other place for a few years and I go to the coffee shop there and I talk to the people, people there and it's great. And I've built this like weird community where I know, or I've like seen the same people over and over again who like sit out front and talk about whatever cars or something. And I have no idea who they are, but like for some reason there's like this, this, this, this connection there. Cause they see me walk by all the time. I may maybe like wave or something, but it's over time, just that small act of getting that cup of coffee actually had a bigger impact that I wasn't even aware of. Right. Like, you know,
Speaker 3:Totally. I think it's one of those things that, and nightly, we are creatures of habits. Yeah. So every now and again, it's really good to have a look at our habits.
Speaker 4:<laugh><laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's totally true. And yeah, I mean, we are, we are literally creatures of habits. Right. And so like moving to another location, I realized, you know, like, wow, like I know all these people and I kind of weirdly miss them, you know?<laugh>
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, sure. You
Speaker 1:Know? Um, and so, cause I'm, I'm on this side, just getting this, uh, location all up and going and it's just so interesting cuz it's um, it's a different, I never expected that. Right. Mm-hmm um, because you're so I'm so in my brain. And so in my mind, when going through the world and you forget about the details of life, because when I look back at memories, I, I tell people all this all the time, the memories that I remember the most are like mundane things like deciding to stop and look at a sunset one day and just sit on a bench. And I just remember that sunset really well. Yeah. You know, um, it's a small thing, but those are the memories I think are the most important when you're like really in the moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:You know? Um, alright, so getting it off topic here
Speaker 4:<laugh>
Speaker 1:Um, okay. So here's uh, last two questions. Um, what is something people often get wrong about you
Speaker 3:<laugh><laugh> um, I'm quite a lot of people think I'm quite intimidating and scary and I'm just not, I'm just, I'm just not just cracks me up so much. Cause I'm like really short and really little, and I've had like more women to be fair than men mm-hmm<affirmative> other women be like, I like before I got to know you, I was like, really? I thought you were really scary and it just cracks me up so much. I'm like just like the least scary person. And like, I just, I don't, I don't understand is I just don't I'm not quite sure like what, what it is about me that makes people say that because I just, I don't see myself as like, like I'm not abrupt or like I'm, I'm very inclusive. I'm super welcoming. I'm like, everyone's welcome. I have no like, like,
Speaker 1:Oh man, I understand that. I understand that. And the last question for this, this part is what does positive change look like for you?
Speaker 3:Positive change for me, looks like autonomy for all.
Speaker 1:Do good. All right. Here are the two silly questions. Uh, first one is what is your astrology sign? And do you resonate with it?
Speaker 3:I'm a Scorpio and hell yes.
Speaker 1:I love it. Love it. Um, and then the second one is
Speaker 3:I'm actually a Scorpio born on Halloween.
Speaker 4:What? Oh really? Oh my,
Speaker 3:That might be the scary thing. It just nailed it. I've just I, now I understand it. It's my witch. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Scorpios always have
Speaker 1:Of that. That, that kind of like every time I talk to someone who's a Scorpio that it's a similar thing. People see them as being intimidating or I think serious or like, you know, like really, but then when you get to know, you know, it's not the case. Right. But it's, it's interesting. It's, it's a common I've seen. Um, and then here's the last one. If you had a power animal, what would it be?
Speaker 3:Power animal. An Al I reckon a white<laugh> The old, it is like hardly ever seen<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh my gosh. I, I love Al we have owls where we live and I, I, you, you, I don't see them often, but they, when you do, it's just as amazing.
Speaker 3:They're super magical to me, Amy. Something like they have it's they're so there's just, they're amazing. You're
Speaker 1:So silent. It's crazy. Yeah. I, I totally, I totally understand that. And then, um, yeah. Yeah. ALS are crazy. We actually saw an Allen New Zealand when we were there, like a RRU or something like that, like a little guy.
Speaker 4:Oh
Speaker 3:Really? Wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah,
Speaker 1:We were hiking and it kept like flying at our head. And then it finally just perched in front of us and was like giving us these weird looks and kinda staring. It was a magical experience. It totally got me, Caught me like totally inspired. It was a long hike and they
Speaker 4:Totally got me.
Speaker 3:They're very like messenger from the gods though. Aren't they, they just are like, they really, you feel like with this, like, like what have you got to tell me? Like, I'm listening.
Speaker 4:<laugh>
Speaker 1:Felt like it was just like, it was weird. It was like, it came so close and then just like perched and stared at us for a really long time. Just like, uh, we're like,
Speaker 4:Uh, this is amazing. May
Speaker 3:We pass?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was like, right. Are we good? Are we good? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're good. Uh<laugh>
Speaker 1:Um, Tiffany, it was amazing to have you on. I need, I think, I feel like, I feel like I have to get you on again. There's just so many things. I think we can talk about
Speaker 3:Anytime and anytime.
Speaker 4:And
Speaker 1:I had like all these I things I wanted to bring up that I was like, I didn't even bring up any of them because we had such an engaging conversation here. So thank you so much, Tiffany, for coming on, this has been speak for change podcast. I'm your host Thomas stage Patterson. I hope you enjoyed the show. Have a wonderful day.