No Pooping on the Portage: Kevin Callan's Latest Adventure

Kevin Callan, the Happy Camper, returns to share the remarkable journey of publishing his 20th book – a children's story called "A Spark of Courage." After multiple rejections from major publishers who couldn't see the market for a book about nature helping anxiety in youth, Kevin took matters into his own hands with passionate determination.

The book follows Paul, an anxious pre-teen reluctant to embark on a canoe trip with his Uncle Roy. Through beautifully illustrated pages created by Cliff McArdle, we witness Paul's transformation from a nervous, screen-dependent kid to someone who embraces wilderness experiences. What makes the story unique is how woodland creatures secretly guide and teach both Paul and his uncle throughout their adventure.

Kevin's decision to self-publish reveals the changing landscape of publishing and the obstacles authors face when trying to share meaningful messages. From navigating print-on-demand services to dealing with third-party sellers attempting to list his unreleased book at inflated prices, the journey demonstrates how passion can overcome traditional gatekeepers. Though self-publishing means taking on all marketing and distribution responsibilities, it provides significantly higher royalties and creative control.

Throughout our conversation, Kevin shares insights from his decades teaching youth in outdoor settings: "We just have to take them in the woods for a long period of time and they become who they are. It's magical." This firsthand experience of nature's transformative power drives his mission to reach young readers struggling with anxiety in our increasingly digital world.

Whether you're a parent concerned about your child's mental health, an outdoor enthusiast, or someone curious about publishing alternatives, this episode offers wisdom, humor, and inspiration. Grab a copy of "A Spark of Courage" at Canadian Outdoor Equipment or your favorite retailer, and follow Kevin's upcoming adventures as he balances book tours with his beloved wilderness trips.

https://kevincallan.com/

https://www.instagram.com/kchappycamper/

https://www.facebook.com/thehappycamper/

https://www.youtube.com/user/KCHappyCamper

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Kevin Callan
• 2:15 A Spark of Courage Book Reveal
• 6:25 The Publishing Rejection Journey
• 10:40 Amazon and Distribution Challenges
• 16:20 The Book's Story and Message
• 25:05 Self-Publishing Pros and Cons
• 32:50 Upcoming Trips and Adventures
• 39:07 Book Tour Plans and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and good day. Welcome to the Super Good Camping podcast. My name is Pamela.

Speaker 2: 0:04

I'm Tim.

Speaker 1: 0:05

And we are from supergoodcampingcom. We're here because we are on a mission to inspire other people to get outside and enjoy camping adventures such as we have as a family. Today's guest is a gentleman we've had the pleasure to chat with multiple times on the podcast on Canoe Hounds Adventure Show and in person at the Toronto Outdoor Adventure Show. He does wonderful presentations at the adventure shows and he's already booking some for next year, like the Hamilton Adventure Expo. He's a canoeing enthusiast and lover of all things camping, plus the author of 20 books. Please welcome, kevin Callen, aka the Happy Camper. Hey, how you doing? Welcome, hey, welcome, welcome back.

Speaker 3: 0:43

Yeah, yeah, it's good to see you. We saw each other at the Toronto show. You were probably there at the Hamilton show, but I didn't see anybody.

Speaker 1: 0:51

I was so busy. We saw you, you didn't see us.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Great presentation, but that show was nuts. So many people showed up for it, which is why they're already pre-booking Presenters. They're going to be double the size, two days all that sort of jazz this year, which is fantastic.

Speaker 3: 1:11

I think that's wonderful, and the best part of that entire show was my daughter's going to university in Hamilton. So she went there with her friends and I knew that she would, and so I did a mini montage of her on a canoe trip when she was five, going across the Gonquin Park and talking about dragonflies, having sex and stuff and her roommates. Yeah, she's like I'll kill you dad.

Speaker 2: 1:37

That's the fun stuff when your kids get old enough to be able to take that.

Speaker 1: 1:40

Embarrass the crap out of them.

Speaker 3: 1:42

Well of all fathers out there, just agree or disagree. That's my job, yes absolutely, absolutely, you bet.

Speaker 2: 1:51

So recently I know again because we've had conversations over the years, I know you've been working on a book for ages Like I don't know two years, three years. It feels, feels like forever. Tell us what the book is. Then tell us the story of the, the concept, the kernel of an idea, to all the, all the fun of self publishing. Yeah, how do we, how do we get here for a spark of courage?

Speaker 3: 2:19

all right, there it is there. I just got it in the mail yesterday. Fantastic, like incredible.

Speaker 2: 2:25

Super awesome.

Speaker 3: 2:26

Yeah, and what happened? Well, I looked at it, where is it. Where is it? This is good. Oh, there, look at it. Okay, so there, there. And then, if you look at the bear pooping in the other place, really closely, he's reading my top 70 kudu root book. That's awesome, that's awesome. And also, if you look at the characters, let me get to it, let me get to it. If you look at the care, oh, where are the characters? Oh, wait a minute. Oh, angel, stop drinking water while I'm I'm on. Oh, she's slurred. All right, here are the characters. They're the animal characters that help, uh, right, and try to identify who's who of all my camp buddies. So, who's andy, who's tim and who's, uh, sweetaman I would say, andy is the bear yep, yep.

Speaker 3: 3:20

So who would be the smart fox? That That'd be Tim. It's not Ashley, for sure. I'm telling you that right now he's a hyper nuthead and that's the story. That's Ashley, yeah, yeah, no, yeah. So what was the question? So how does this come to be?

Speaker 3: 3:35

So what happened is, cliff McArdle was an aspiring illustrator, worked on TV doing a bunch of things and stuff of that, and big canoeist, love tomogamy, love canoeing. And randomly he just uh, sent me a um, a character of myself. And I went why? And he, he was just doing it for fun. He did one of Jim Baird, he did one of um of Adam Schultz, and a bunch of other people went this is funny, and he had it on on his Instagram. So I went what's with this? Well, you know, this is what I do on my side, like I do illustrations for a living on for TV and stuff like that. But I just, I love canoeing and I would do this. Well, that's funny, that looks like me. And uh, then, during the cause, I actually called him up and I said this is great. And so what? What's your? You know, your, your crystal ball, what you want to do in life.

Speaker 3: 4:32

And he, what one idea was he wanted to always write a kid's book about going off on a canoe trip and actually how going off into nature helps cure anxiety. And I went, whoa, that's like oh, oh. And I go that's fantastic, your work is phenomenal. So, do you have a writer? And he goes no, I can't write, I don't have a writer. I went, you got a writer. So I think that that idea is just phenomenal and your work is amazing.

Speaker 3: 5:02

So then I went off and started okay, well, then I went to my publisher, firefly, which they're great, I worked with for many years and I gave them the concept. They really liked it, they loved his work. I mean, as soon as they saw his work, oh, this is good. So we got the meeting Right. And uh, but then we did the 36 days of refusal. It's in my contract.

Speaker 3: 5:20

So they, they were able to look at it for that many days before I can go to anywhere else. And, uh, they did. They, they worked really hard on it. But then they said, yeah, I just don't get it. Uh, I can't see this selling about a kid going on a canoe trip and his anxiety being cured by being on a canoe trip. Like, really okay.

Speaker 3: 5:40

And then I went to other people, even scholastic, which is one of the biggest. They looked at it. This is really good work, this is fantastic. So we had the meeting. That was really huge In a week actually. They actually had a meeting with us and saying that you know, close work is amazing. Yeah, I just don't get the selling idea of a kid going off into nature and helping his anxiety.

Speaker 3: 6:04

I went really, and then a couple other um, other um publishers, and then I finally, I don't know, didn't know why, I still don't know Cliff, but I didn't know Cliff. I went Cliff, they're wrong. This thing will sell like hotcakes and if it doesn't, we'll actually change the world. Okay, so you know what I'm going to make that happen. I'm old enough and I'm connected enough now in my life to actually make my 20th book, again a self-published book, and I've done it twice already. And I created Kevin Callen books and I dove into the well, here we go.

Speaker 3: 6:42

And then I decided to create a self-published book by print on demand. So I use IngramSpark before, which is an American company, and at that time when that happened, it was great right, because they did a good job. They did a great job. But I said to Cliff I go, but we need to go to a designer and an editor and do it professionally. And you know he's young and and with all this he goes. Well, gosh, it looks okay.

Speaker 3: 7:11

Now I went new, new, new, new, new, new, new.

Speaker 3: 7:13

And so Kathy Fraser, an editor I worked with for many years probably 30 years and also Jill Steed, a designer that's amazing, with her during the Boston bills days with my old guidebooks, and you know they got involved and yeah, we went from there and that process takes a long time and poor Cliff like he just thought this would happen in a couple months I went books don't happen a couple months. This is why people don't write books. And so he's learned a lot I've learned a lot for the whole process and then what happened was, um, they started designing it and stuff like that, but then all of a sudden you know the whole trade wars start happening when, all all of a sudden, I was going to and I thought, geez, I'm gonna have to choose a canadian, uh, print job. And, um, I tried to and the one for reasons was possible, but they don't do print on demand. But there's another company that's similar to them, but they're on the Better Business Bureau like of like, don't go near them. So I was like well, I can't do that.

Speaker 3: 8:12

So I went back to Ingram. It was funny. This is my first interview. I haven't told any of these stories to anybody except Christine. And what happened was I found out that the print job is not done in the United States. It is printed where, whatever country you order it. So if you're a Canadian and you order the book, it's printed in Winnipeg. So I go oh, so it's just a PDF file that's from the United States. So I'm okay with that. So let's go for that. So if you ever want to I'm just rambling here. So if you want to publish a book on your own, this is happens.

Speaker 3: 8:42

So we did that. And sure enough, uh, you know there's a lot of things you gotta when you do a kid's book. You would think it'd be easy. It's only like 46 pages and I just have to write the little text. It's done. No, no, I've never worked so hard in my life on a book because it has to be precise, right, um and uh, especially when you look at illustrations, like, again, cliff is, but you know, shadows and the lighting has to be changed.

Speaker 3: 9:08

And then I went to go on my speaking tour, starting in late February. I went the book needs to be out now. Now, right, I'm speaking to over 10,000 people in the next next month and a half, and it's not ready yet. And so I went okay, just chill. I went for a walk in the woods, just chill. It all happened. And then. So we did that and finally we got it out.

Speaker 3: 9:30

And then, sure enough, amazon's involved, because, I hate to say at the end of the day, I will do everything possible to get my book out into brick and mortar stores, and that's why I chose Ingram, that that they believe in that too, because you can actually print through Amazon as well. But I don't believe that. And but what happened with that was it's like, okay, well, to do that, so you can tell I'm blabbing, I haven't talked to anybody for a while. And so what happened was okay, we'll do that, and then we'll put it out. And then, all of a sudden, it's thank goodness, it printed on demand. You. And all of a sudden, it's thank goodness, a print on demand. You put it out.

Speaker 3: 10:04

And, sure enough, cliff poor Cliff sent me a note one night. Yeah, I see, the proof went through, and now it's for sale on Amazon for $75. What? The book doesn't even exist, and the only anybody that knows the release date that would be April 14th, is me and Ingham Spark. So nobody else knows about that. So why is someone on Amazon a third party selling it for $75 and saying its release date is April 14th? That's interesting.

Speaker 3: 10:35

You try to solve that issue because they're all like oh, I don't know. Yeah, they know. So someone's paid someone to someone, to someone, and everybody's in a panic because someone has stole my book. For two years of work, some scumbag company that actually would not even sell you the book, like you will buy that book for $75. You would never, ever get it. It doesn't exist. Oh, no, right.

Speaker 3: 10:59

So, of course, how to stop that? Contact Ingram. Of course you have to wait for them to respond. Contact Amazon and they're like well, it's a third party, we can't do anything about it, they're allowed to do that. I went they're allowed to do that. That's illegal, that's called copyright infringement. Well, you're going to have to get a lawyer and have to prove that actually that's your book. And so I went to get a lawyer. It's thousands of dollars. I went are you kidding me? And then I came. I sort of again, went for a walk in the woods and said nobody in the right mind is going to buy that book for $75. And then I actually went on social media and my fans, they went nuts on this company. It was magical. Instead of me saying you can't do this, all these people saying you're corrupt, whatever, and they shut it down because they look bad. So, thank you for all the people that did that.

Speaker 3: 11:47

And, um, actually, you know the one person that did really well. Um, what's the dragonfly guy? The guy that has the dragonfly thing in the head, like that? No, no, the company. Uh, oh, what's it called, christine? What's the company called with the dragonfly in his head? Valley valley? Yeah, the company that has a dragonfly in his head, not Lee Valley. The company that has the dragonfly floating on your hat? Wingman Wingman, he deals with this all the time. Hi, christine, they sent a note and it was shut down. All the people saying they can't do anything. It was shut down because they, yeah and like so. All the people saying they can't do anything. It was shut down because they. Look, they got caught right with the hand in the candy chair how do they get all that information?

Speaker 1: 12:32

where do they get it from? Like it has to come from the?

Speaker 2: 12:35

publisher, maybe who I don't know.

Speaker 3: 12:38

I don't know yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3: 12:41

Sorry to interrupt, I just I know let's just say print on demand and self publishing is fantastic in one sense, and I'll go over the good goods of it. The bads is, if I had a real publisher and that happened, their lawyers would go after them, where now I'm the publisher with no money and I couldn't go after them, right, because't? Anyway, at the same time I wrote a book with Cliff about a high anxiety, right? How ironic is that. And the good thing is is that why did they try to steal it? I think that's important. Let's go back to that. I go to Cliff. That must mean it's a gosh darn good book that will sell really well, or they would never have stole it, right, if it was something boring, as they would be trying to sell it, right? So, um, let's ride the storm just like on a couldn't trip, or let's let's do the portage, get it done and then go on from that. So everything seems to be fine.

Speaker 3: 13:42

The only thing right now is uh, amazon, canada, has it now for sale. They they posted it for 28 something and it's a 1995 book and when I put it in I made every country to sell it for 1995. But they'll boost the price and you can't stop that. So what I did is is. I contacted Tim at Canadian Outdoor Equipment. I said you know, I'd rather people buy the book off you than Amazon. I'm not knocking Amazon. I'll probably make more money off Amazon worldwide for this book than ever. But, be quite honest, like, how can I fix this? So he said yeah, and today he actually put it on his website for sale for $19.95. So you can buy that book in Canada for the right price, not Amazon. So that's a tough one, though. Eh, like you try to do everything right At the same time you know, I'm not a fool.

Speaker 3: 14:38

I'll make more money off Amazon. So, oh, I'm exhausted, Christine. Was that okay? Way to go, Kevin.

Speaker 2: 14:44

Thanks, honey. Yeah'm surprised you. You mentioned that scholastic you. You went and had a yak with them and and they went. We don't see it working. I I'm like it hits me as it's a teaching thing. It it's an inclusive thing because there are kids with anxiety. If this is a you know, if this becomes, if it's a tool to to help I, I it's been a while since I've been in school and buying scholastic books, but that's that's kind of what they were doing for us before.

Speaker 3: 15:11

Well, here's the thing. So I wonder that too. But then I asked a lot of friends in the business and also librarians and teachers, and they said, here's the interesting thing there's not a lot of books on mental health with kids. There's a few. There's some other unique books out there that talk about other things, but nothing. They couldn't find one book that really specifically talks about a canoe route or canoe trip, helping anxiety, and therefore if I was scholastic and I was a business person, they would do that search as well and therefore they would say, well, there's nothing out there. Why would we do this? Why would we invest in this and but?

Speaker 3: 15:49

But I know in my, my lifetime and my people, I know, and everything else, they're begging for this book. Like, if you look at it, basically the book is based on Paul, you know, and he goes on a trip with his Uncle Roy, and Uncle Roy is not Kevin, uncle Roy is just an uncle that actually wants to take him canoeing. He doesn't really want to teach him anything, he just wants him to experience it. So it's just this figure of Uncle Roy saying well, geez, paul, I think you should go on a canoe trip, and we have so many Uncle Roys in our life. Right, they don't know why Paul should, should, go, they just think that paul should go. And then paul, you know, he said okay, like no, I, my phone won't work. Um, you know, uh, I'm worried about bears.

Speaker 3: 16:36

And then also throughout the book there's little tidbits of information about what gear they brought, how to classify rapids. So it's that Kevin Happy Camper sort of tips and tricks, because it's made for ages 6 to 12. Right, so if you're thinking, if you're a scout leader, if you're someone from Palo Canada, if you're a parent or guardian of some kid that wants to show them the tips and tricks but not overwhelm them, yeah, so then Paul goes on the trip and he's not liking it at all, uh, and you know, and typical, you know, roy, uh, uncle Roy is fishing and Paul's doing all the work We've seen that before and it rains and all, all the misadventures happen along the way. You look at, no, poor Paul is not liking the bugs in the portage. And then Uncle Roy's like what's your problem? Didn't you bring your bug spray? And I won't go through the whole book, oh, I love this part. And then they're on the portage and I have a bunch of etiquette signs on the portage, and the one is no pooping on the portage.

Speaker 3: 17:48

And I had some people read this beforehand and a little drier humor than I have, and they're like, yeah, that's not proper, you should not put that. No pooping on the portage. I go, do you know kids? Yes, that's the first thing they're gonna laugh at.

Speaker 3: 17:57

They are gonna find it hilarious uh, jude, uh, christine's grandson, he's like three going on four, and I show him this page. It was like Finding Waldo, right, okay, show me the gear. And I said where's the toilet paper? Boom, he found the toilet paper. So yeah, but it goes on to. They have this adventure and they go through Atticus and all of a sudden, you know they don't hang the food proper that whole debate.

Speaker 3: 18:26

There's a whole bunch of hidden messages in this book, actually, because I'm a little weird and the animals get to the food. But also, what's happening is Uncle Roy is not teaching him, it's the animal creatures that are teaching the tips and tricks without the kid knowing, without the uncle knowing. It's all subconscious, right, but they're helping the humans along because they're like you know, this is our home and you don't feel that you belong in the home and we're going to show you the tips and tricks by halfway through the book. The kid is loving it, he's cooking breakfast and uncle roy's asleep, um and uh. Then by the end, uh, you know, paul's like I love this, I don't want to go home.

Speaker 3: 19:08

And during the time too, he also meets a whole bunch of camp kids and he's wondering why they're having so much fun. And then he realizes is because they're all immersed in that willingness. They're, they're enjoying their surroundings where he's trying to conquer or defend himself for it, and it's, it's all based on that. And then at the end, last page I shouldn't show you the last page, I guess but deep meaning is that you know they're there, they are leaving and they're the creatures saying see you later, see you next year. So it's the animal creatures that are teaching humans.

Speaker 2: 19:43

You know, chill, man yeah well, and agreed like uh, even if you're not a high anxiety person, I can tell you you know what we've? We, five years in, we've had a number of discussions with with all kinds of people about, about camping and in, but certainly my jam is jumping in a canoe and going far away Within a couple of days, like you know, I'm sure blood pressure's down. I don't actually check it. I know my BPM is lower, I know that I'm breathing better, I'm chill and I can be a little bit wound sometimes, but but but I'm not. I'm certainly. I don't think I'm high anxiety about anything, and yet it it jumping in a canoe and having that experience, that nature experience makes me totally chill and I hear that from all kinds of people. So that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 20:50

Well, it makes total sense to everybody to be quite honest, especially in our field, in our community, and I think it's good, it's good for the soul to sort of say you know, you're wrong and I'll do it myself, like I. I, I've been along around this world so many times that I know what's right and I know also, and poor, poor Cliff I, I've been along around this world so many times I know what's right and I know also, and poor poor Cliff I. When I I first met him, I went we need to talk about a few things. First of all, there's no money to be made in writing in Canada for the outdoors, so okay, so why do you want to write this book? And he said the same thing.

Speaker 3: 21:23

He's on high anxiety too. Well, I'm guessing, knowing him, and want to write this book. And he said the same thing he's on high anxiety too well, I'm guessing, knowing him. And he just want to make a difference. You know he's, he's married with a small kid and he's worried about the future of the world, worried about wilderness. He loves tomogami, worried about tomogami, and he wanted to do something. And uh, tonight, just after or just before this uh interview, I talked to him and showed him the book because he hasn't got it yet. And yeah, that's his carrot. We did this, kevin. This is fantastic, and teachers are going to buy it, scouts are going to buy it, granddads and grandmothers are going to buy it. It's kind of cool, but it was so funny I said so.

Speaker 1: 22:06

Here's the monies we put out and this is how long it will take for us to get monies back and uh, and he's all fine with that no, I think it's an awesome message and I think, uh, it is something like there's a lot of mental health issues for kids, especially in that age range, especially with all that's going on with social media and pressure from parents in school, and I think it's great to have some outlet like that and encourage them to have that outlet.

Speaker 3: 22:37

Yeah, I've seen this because I've taught for years. But the last couple of decades I've taught youth at risk right, and we just have to take them in the woods for a long period of time and they become who they are. It's magical, right. And that's. Paul Like the one thing about that canoe trip the first few days he still did not like, he didn't want to be out there and that's I've seen that. But once he got the skill set and felt more comfortable and laughing at things, at the end we all deal with that. You at the end you don't want to go home. Oh, you can't wait till your next trip. Why? Because the portages are bad, the bugs are bad, there's bears out there, of course. You know comical, but yeah, at the end those fears were gone away because it became his day-to-day life to be out there with his uncle and the uncle portrayed of he didn't care because he'd been out there for a long time. So he's not the teacher, he's just the awareness of what's your problem? Like what's your problem. I'm comfortable out here, you should be as well. And that's where the uncle was At first when we were writing the book.

Speaker 3: 23:38

You know I was going to be the uncle and I was going. Yeah, no, that's so typical Like they can see that coming a mile away. Now, mind you, you will see me in the book. I won't tell you where it is, but you'll see me. So find Waldo, I'm in there.

Speaker 1: 23:59

How old is Paul in?

Speaker 3: 23:59

the book. So 12, maybe 13, maybe going on 14. And it's tough to write a kid's book because you really do have to get the age set because when you go to Indigo and sell your books they're in rows of age. So I learned so much writing a kid's book. It's a lot easier writing a good book, but, yeah, you have to make a certain age. And then we tested it with youth. So youth would read it and then we would judge who got it and who didn't. And that's that's where we we came down to um, uh, six great, or six years old to 12 year old, to was it? Um, how old are you when you are in grade? Oh no, I forget the age. Christine, christine, what age was it? Age 6 to 12, and then grade? Oh hey, it's on the back of the book. No, it's not Young kids, but not kindergarten, yeah so grade 1.

Speaker 3: 25:00

And not grade 9. They're too cool.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Even though they'll read the book, it's not cool for them. What was? Yes, 15-ish for grade nine? Yeah right, so up to middle school I guess, you know what?

Speaker 2: 25:20

The book is written for everybody. Well, and that's the thing, one of the things when I heard again, because we've talked about it in bits and pieces over over the course of a couple years I thought that'd be an interesting book. Like I'm going to buy it for myself, you know, and and there are, I will I will probably read it, you know, give it. There's parents in the building that have have younger kids and I'll probably end up donating it to them to read it to their kids, because their kids they're they're kind of outdoor friendly type, like they like to do that sort of jazz. So you know why not right?

Speaker 2: 25:53

but, I'm gonna read it myself first, that's good.

Speaker 3: 25:55

I actually read it out loud this morning to myself uh, because you, you work so hard on something so long, you just you lose. And it's a good storyline. It really is. Uh, it will. It will sort of get everybody engrossed in it. And then what's going to happen at the end? Yeah there's even a moose wearing a pfd. Because, because that's important we like that message too. Yeah, I even have the a recipe for uh gor there. So there they are doing rapids and there's the moose, that's excellent.

Speaker 3: 26:32

And then, of course, paul's nervous about running the rapids. He's like oh gosh, why are we doing this? And there they are. Oh no, what if we dump? What if we do this? And then they do that. And of course you have the classifications of the rapids too, so it's all the information as well along the way. And then they do that. And then Paul's like let's do that again, let's do it again. I think I peed myself because I was so nervous, but let's do it again.

Speaker 2: 27:05

That's excellent. That's excellent. That's excellent, all right, so so you wanted to have it out before the your previous tour that you literally just finished, right? Yeah but you didn't. So are you doing a, a book tour, an abbreviated, I assume?

Speaker 3: 27:22

yeah, yeah I'm going to do some signings, so so can you have your equipment is going to do the launch. Um, because you know, at least I know tim and I said, look, I don't know when this is coming out. And I had to get this copy to prove it. Yesterday too, like the book wasn't coming out until I actually saw this and said, okay, well, no, it's not, it's not done proper. And it finally it did. And then he's like come on, come on, kevin, come, come on. And so I said yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 3: 27:46

So, yeah, may 4th at his store, you can go there and get books signed, and Cliff's going to be there as well, which is really important to me for him to be there. And then the other is I'm going to do a bunch of libraries and a bunch of other things afterwards. The only problem is that's my canoeing time, things afterwards. The only problem is is that's my canoeing time and, uh, I was going to do a huge solo uh trip for brook trout, the the first week in may and it's probably going to be a three night now because I'm going to be on the road. But the book is more important. Well, you know what? No, isn't more important than brook trout, no, but find that balance.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Do it. Do it hit a library, go spend three days. Hit another library three more days.

Speaker 3: 28:30

I always even I even said to Christina so I'll do a tour and then sleep in the car or sleep with my moms or my sisters, whatever. And I do want to go more towards where Cliff lives. He lives in Southwestern Ontario because this is his first book, right, and I really want to make sure that we emphasize around his area. Yeah, I guess I remember that. I remember my first book. Yeah, he deserves everything for that. So that'd be fun. So I will post that for sure on social media. It's all in the works. I just have to sort of the next couple of days. Yes, this is happening. I do know I'm speaking at the Marlboro library on April 23rd. I don't know if I'll have books there. In theory I'll have books there, but I decided I won't speak on the book. I'll speak on the passaway trip, cause I I know I can do that, but in theory I should have books there, but I'll let everybody know the day before if they arrive. So but yeah, I'm blabbing.

Speaker 2: 29:28

No, no. So make sure that listeners, you didn't get to see the pretty pictures, unless you're watching this on YouTube. So go watch us on YouTube for starters. Second, check out Kevin's, all Kevin's social medias. He's on Facebook, instagram. What else, oh you do? Fires, fireside chats and all that sort of jazz on on youtube as well, right?

Speaker 3: 29:52

yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I love the fireside shows, in fact, actually. Well, you'll be on after the fact, but, um, next week I'm interviewing, doing a whiskey chat with, um, uh, robbie brown. Do you know him, the musician from Thunder Bay?

Speaker 2: 30:07

No, the name rings a bell, but I'm drawing a blank.

Speaker 3: 30:10

Okay, well, he's famous and he sings all about the North and canoeing, and one of his favorites, my favorite song is about the Wendell Beckwith no, not Wendell, sorry the White Otter Castle up North. He has a song on that and Black Spruce, and so I mean mean to be quite honest, the whiskey jazz I do. Musicians don't get a lot of attention when I do interviews with them, um, but I love it. I love it like, yeah, the musicians I've interviewed is phenomenal and it's. It's a bust too, because for monetization, because the moment they sing, you know, youtube goes well, there goes monetization, but I don't, but I don't care, I don't care, I don't make a lot of money off YouTube, I don't care.

Speaker 3: 30:51

But the interview Robbie and Ian Tamblyn when I interviewed him oh man, if you haven't seen it, go back and watch that interview. The guy is amazing, right, yeah, I reflect the other day when, during the COVID breakdown or lockdown, whatever I was on my own and everybody else was on their own and I interviewed a lot of people, if you go back to the amount of people I interviewed during then, like it was amazing, just because it was all had to do zoom and virtual.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Nobody had to do anything else.

Speaker 2: 31:19

So you could just zoom in, yep.

Speaker 1: 31:22

So what else have you got planned for trips this year?

Speaker 3: 31:24

A lot of trips. I'm going back to Quebec. Christine and I love Quebec. We went to to do Lake Kibwa last year and so we're going in June. We're going to another park Can't pronounce it, I don't think I would yell at Christine to ask, but I don't think she knows how to pronounce it, but it's, it's north of that, so we're going back. We loved it. Lake kibwa was amazing. Quebec's amazing culture is amazing. People are amazing. Uh, yeah, in a heartbeat, we're like we're going back and I'm doing, I am doing my, my, uh, agonquin spring trip, but it's not until the end of may.

Speaker 3: 31:55

I could curse my buddy, actually, like all for what? Almost 30 years, every single year, we'd be going for Mother's Day week, right for a gong, for a brush out in the last couple years. Well, I'm going on a holiday and we're going to the, going to Brazil, and I went. Why, like what? So then we have to go to the end of May, and we did that last year and caught no fish. We did last year, the year before. We caught no fish because we're there to it. I mean, you think the end of May would be good, but it's not you and we did that last year and caught no fish. We did the year before. We caught no fish because we're there to it. I mean you think the end of May would be good, but it's not. You have to be there in early May. So anyway, we're still going on the trip because we're having fun.

Speaker 3: 32:29

The cool thing is so Mike Kipp's son can't go this year, so we needed an extra person. So I asked Christine's son, jesse, to go, and Christine's, like has no idea what he's getting himself into. No, he doesn't know these guys. Is Ashley going to bring his speedo? Almost likely. We'll see how that goes. So that'd be fun.

Speaker 3: 32:55

And then Andy and I are planning a trip. We're having a meeting in the next couple of days. He has some ideas, I have some ideas. I actually said he wanted to do another surprise trip and I finally had to say to him my guy, I cannot handle that again.

Speaker 3: 33:12

Maybe when we're 70, you can do that for fun, but I cannot do that again for my anxiety level. So let's talk about a route and you can choose the route. I don't have to use the route, but I can't and this is a personal thing, but my anxiety cannot handle going off in the far North not knowing where we're going and then getting into trouble, right, um, I I if you watch that video there's a lot of. I broke down on that trip. Um, you imagine being on that trip where there's forest fires all around you. You're actually 250 kilometers away from everybody. The float plane is a two hour and two and a half hour flight and there's no way the plane can land in in those those ponds, even to get you, and we actually traveled like like six days.

Speaker 2: 33:59

We travel four kilometers to cut our way through the bush I know those portages, or or lack of portages, were brutal man no, I'm not doing that again.

Speaker 3: 34:08

I I people say, well, how do you survive out there? Because I'm not. My mom, my mom always say she's got, just didn't be stupid okay, mom, good advice well, she's right.

Speaker 3: 34:21

Yeah, so anyway, uh, yeah, love andy to death. And and I think it was a great idea what he did I just it's just a personal thing my anxiety, um, as you probably tell in the video, uh, was super high, and how I got through, personally, is bush time. I actually knew I could get through. Christina said that to me yesterday. Um, well, you, you know you'd be fine. I mean, it's not your first rodeo. Uh, yeah, and she's right. Actually, that that's I. I sort of. There's a certain part of the trip I go well, I know how to cut bush, I know how to camp, I know how to canoe, even though I'm old and I'm sore, and then my, my brain kicked in and my body just gave away, cause, it's like you know, you forgot about the hurt until you got home and then you really hurt, right, but when my knee went under the canoe and just bent out like I was just high on meds the entire trip, so until I got home.

Speaker 2: 35:14

So yeah, good fun. I know all about bodies bailing out on you mid-portage, but thankfully I tandem and make sure that I bring along a very tall, strong kid that can carry the stuff.

Speaker 3: 35:29

Oh, that's right.

Speaker 2: 35:29

Yeah, is the book available for pre-sale? I know this will air on the 21st of April, so the book will already have been out for one week. I will do a short at some point. Is there a presale thing?

Speaker 3: 35:46

Yeah, the presale is actually now. You can order it right now, which is whatever day this is. It's like two weeks from the date you're saying it's released on April 14th, so that means actually it has to get printed. So that takes a good five days, so you're not going to get the book the next day, um, but it's allowed to be printed and that's just the thing I did. I said, look, you're not putting this book out without me having a look at it. Like, I can look at it, um, on PDF file on the computer and the printer says this is okay and yeah, on the computer and the printer says this is okay and yeah, um, so, yeah, um, it's.

Speaker 3: 36:27

Some people are saying, well, it's not hardcover, it should be hardcover, it's too soft, whatever. Well, it all depends. Like it's it's glossy cover and matte finish, whatever. And I I chose all those because the designer jill I've known for years. She goes well, this is what you want to get for the money and, for example, this is one of my favorite kids books. If you haven't got this, get this. And the guy's amazing, all four seasons of a trip on his artwork and that's incredible. But it's hardcover with actually a dust cover. It costs you a fortune, like you'd have to go through a publisher for that, like I couldn't afford to do that. So we, you know, we did the soft cover, which actually a lot of kids books majority of them were like this nowadays um, especially for a story like that. So it just it comes down to you know, kevin callen books doesn't have the money to do something. That's thousands, thousands of dollars. So, yeah, uh, for self-publishing, for the advantages of it, of it. So, if you know, let's start with the disadvantages. If you're self-published, some people would say, well, you're not real, a real writer if you're self-published, because anybody could be self-published and that's true, actually, anybody could actually go to one of those printing companies and and actually do their own book.

Speaker 3: 37:39

Um, sandy mode at cbc radio friday morning sun uh, I wouldn't. Yeah, I don't know him because of friday mo, I just know him as sandy. He's a good friend of mine and he goes, kevin, like you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. You, you have, this is your 20th book. You've, you've already proven yourself. So he goes.

Speaker 3: 37:57

But your publisher, I make eight percent royalty on all my other books, my guidebooks, 8%, and then I have to wait for that royalty if I get it right, because everybody's all you know you're going to get paid. If I self-publish, if I sell it myself and actually sell it at a book signing, I get 70% royalty. It's a huge difference Big time, and I should. I do all the work Like a publisher in theory. In the old days did all the work. They did marketing, they did distribution and they did. But really, who goes to all the shows? Do you see my publisher at those shows when you're with me? No Distribution, how do those folks get there? I ordered them right. So sandy goes, we'll do it.

Speaker 3: 38:41

And then so the last two books the once around agonquin and also the uh, another bend in the river was self-published and yeah, I didn't sell as many but I actually made money right, um, but you have to invest in it. You have to do it proper. And here's the thing that everybody should know for self publishing you have to do it proper. You don't get your grandmother or your mother to edit unless they're an editor, but you don't get them to do it, you need a professional. And Kathy Fraser and Jill Seed actually did that and I know them.

Speaker 3: 39:09

And yes, that cost me money and I told Cliff, like we have to invest money, and then that made a huge difference because you know, we thought all the spelling mistakes were done and we gave it to Kathy. She found 43 of them. So you do that. But at the end of the time it's still a lot of work and that means now the book is out and now we still have to go on the road and promote it. But if a store sells it, like Canada Equipment or Amazon, I make 40%, not 8%. So I still make more, right? Yeah, it's one of those things that's yin and yang, right?

Speaker 2: 39:46

Yep, does Cliff go on the tour with you, like on the road for any of these he is doing some.

Speaker 3: 39:54

He's got a family of a young kid. He also is I shouldn't tell you. Well, he'll tell you he's very nervous. He showed up the Hamilton show and saw me talking to everybody and then I talked to him that night he goes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:08

I know, but he will be there. He will be there for some of the good, solid ones too, and I don't expect him to to be going, as I'm so hyper, I don't expect him to keep up with me. Him to to be going, as I'm so hyper, um, I don't expect him to keep up with me, uh. So, um, yeah, he's good at what he does illustration and I'm good at what I do. So, yeah, uh, yeah, I, it's so funny to to see him at the hamilton show. I was talking to people and I had a lot of people and then I saw him to my left and I felt bad because I couldn't talk to him because I was talking. And then I phoned him and he goes no, kevin, I'm not doing that which is fine, because we're all.

Speaker 3: 40:46

We're all different, right we are.

Speaker 2: 40:48

I can. I can do this, but to stand in front of a crowd of people I would just be a big thing of sweat and melty goo on the stage.

Speaker 1: 40:56

That I couldn't yeah yeah, I can't do it, you're in the headlights.

Speaker 3: 41:00

He'd be uh you know, here I'll tell you a story just to finish this off um, uh for enlightenment for everybody. So, uh, evan's uh traversing show at the uh canoe museum, um, right last week, but it won't be last. We're talking about we're. But, yeah, he needed one more presenter and didn't know who and I said chris prowse. Uh, for the meanest link, right, and he goes really like, would she even talk? I went, I don't know, like she's never presented before, but I know her really quite well. She actually lives down the road. Yeah, so we communicated and she was hesitant and she called me and we had a really good talk on the phone and, um, I said, well, I really think you'll do an amazing job. Like, you have no problem with presenting, even though you never presented before. But what do you present? Will present on and and. So if you haven't seen it, go to um, evan has the, the feed that he did. He did um online as well and now he posts that so you can watch.

Speaker 3: 41:57

Her presentation blew everybody away. It's the best presentation. I shouldn't say that, but I'm saying it right now. It's the best presentation the entire day, right, um, because she talked about, she showed. This is what people that being, some men thought of us that her and julia um being online and she showed comments made about they should be home in the kitchen. They don't belong out there and things like that, and that's why they disappeared. If you want to know why Chris Prouse disappeared off social media for a while, that's why she said I'm done. And then that's why they did the meanest link and then did the meanest link again, and then did it again and then kept beating their previous records.

Speaker 3: 42:42

Yeah the record and throw them, mike, down, like, yeah, you might disagree with what they do, is they go as fast as possible, whatever. But she actually talked about that at the end as well and saying, well, but that is what we do, that is our calmness, we're marathon people like you don't have to do what we do, but this is what we do. And she made really, she explained it really quite well and you could tell she was nervous for the first two minutes and after that she held the floor and I got to say, man, that was awesome. So, being nervous, you could say, look, you read my memoir. I was the most. Well, I'm still a nervous person. But to go from not even to speak a word in high school with a stuttering impediment to actually doing all these shows now why it's motivation to make a change in life, to make a change in wilderness protection, and if I have to do that, to get on stage, I'll do it. But when I get home, christine, am I quiet? When I get home, I just woke her up.

Speaker 2: 43:46

All right. Well, we're going to let you go get in heck for that, okay.

Speaker 1: 43:51

That's it for us for today. Thank you so much to Kevin Callum. Please check him out. He's on Instagram, youtube all the things as Casey Happy Camper. Right, yes, yes, so check him out. Please do check out A Spark of Courage, kevin Cowan's new book, children's book. We'll be ordering one for ourselves and please do check us out while you're on all the things. Please do email us. We are at hi at supergoodcampingcom. That's hi at supergoodcampingcom. We'll talk to you again soon.