This episode explores the story of two individuals charged with impersonating a physician. One, Gerald Barnes, had motivations of money and caused the death of John Mckenzie. The other, Adam Litwin, had a passion for medicine, caused no harm, and later completed medical school and is now a physician. The difference was engagement and passion for medicine.
Quality systems require that employees are qualified. Diane and I discuss this with Adam Litwin M.D. and Bill McGuckin of Oxenham Group (https://oxenhamgroup.com/).
This episode explores the story of two individuals charged with impersonating a physician. One, Gerald Barnes, had motivations of money and caused the death of John Mckenzie. The other, Adam Litwin, had a passion for medicine, caused no harm, and later completed medical school and is now a physician. The difference was engagement and passion for medicine.
Quality systems require that employees are qualified. Diane and I discuss this with Adam Litwin M.D. and Bill McGuckin of Oxenham Group (https://oxenhamgroup.com/).
Hi, I'm Aaron Harmon.
Diane Cox:And I'm Diane Cox Welcome to Inside Out quality.
Aaron Harmon:both Dan and I build and implement quality systems in the biotech and medical device industry. But we often get asked, Is this really necessary? That we know if we are doing too much too early? Or do we even need a quality system?
Diane Cox:Our goal is to explore questions like these through real life events and experiences shared by our guests from various regulated industries. We will show you why quality is not just about compliance and how when it's done right, it can help your product and company improve lives and make a difference.
Aaron Harmon:In December of 1979, John Mackenzie made a trip to the doctor at an Irvine clinic feeling dizzy, having an insatiable thirst and losing weight. Suddenly, his physician Dr. Barnes diagnosed him with vertigo, gave them a prescription and sent him home. Dr. Barnes saw 30 to 40 patients a day with the support of a PA Ric DL Sandro, when Rick saw John's medical history and his lab results. He knew John was in trouble and he was he had type one diabetes. When real help arrived. It was too late. He had died in his home. Gerald Barnes who legally changed his name from Gerald Barnbum was a harmacist after a Medicare raud in the late 70s. He lost is license. That's when he ecided to steal credentials rom another doctor named Gerald arnes, build a fake resume and pply to be a physician. It was ick his pa who helped figure ut the jail was not a doctor ut a fraud. Gerald was entenced to prison for 18 onths. But a few years after rison, he went back to his old ays and began working as a octor in Orange County where he as arrested again. His cycles f deceit and medicine continued nd he ended up in prison a otal of four times in 1981 8489 nd 91. He eventually died in rison. His story is an extreme ases someone in a job they are ot qualified to do. There are any reasons this may occur, and hey aren't always due to deceit r malice. This podcast episode s devoted to the question on ow you qualify an employee to o their job as a different erspective. Dan, and I have Dr. dam Letwin, a real doctor on his episode, who in his younger ays got so wrapped up in edicine that he too, was onvicted of being a fake octor. But instead of behaving ike Gerald, Dr. Litwin chose to ontinue his pursuit of medicine hrough medical school, he raduated in 2016, with his octor of Medicine, and is here ith us today. So the first uestion, Gerald faked being a hysician, and in a way you did oo, but your stories diverge uickly, can you describe how ou ended up at UCLA mpersonating a position?
Adam Litwin:So back when I was 25-26 years old, back in 1998, I was actually going through a pretty rough patch in my life back then. And I was I was suffering with depression. So I had gone to LA to actually get treatment from EEOC seek outpatient treatment for my depression. And I ended up doing some of my, my outpatient treatment at UCLA. Long story short, you know, when I, when I was there at UCLA, I sort of just became enamored with and, you know, all encompassed and wrapped up in the academic, and the invigorating academic environment of you know, of a bustling UCLA Medical Center. And I was already, you know, a kid with a dream, but a very misguided young adult back then, I think we're where my where my story, and Mr. Barnes stories really diverge are pretty much seems, seems, seems to be at the very beginning here. Um, yeah. So that's pretty much how I, you know, how I got involved with UCLA, you know, and actually being there and being immersed in the situation. And to begin with,
Aaron Harmon:it sounded like you were actually in the library, reading some of the medical textbooks, and then in that process, somebody hadn't mistaken you for a resident.
Unknown:Right, that that's, that's right. In sort of the the beginnings of when I began to perpetrate all of this is exactly as you said, Exactly. As you read my story in the LA Times. Basically, I had spent, you know, I had sort of increased ated, myself to the UCLA Medical Library had spent a lot of time there doing, as you say, just reading medical books, doing research, you know, research in journals, and just talking to people. And I spent, I would say, I spent, you know, two to three months, probably just, you know, just doing that. And as time went on, and I sort of got to know people and sort of became more comfortable in mind more comfortable in my environment. And I started, you know, branching out and reaching out to other doctors and residents and things like that, and talking, just talking to people. You know, one day, someone came to see me and they said, Are you Dr. Litwin? And I said, you know, I heard about you, you've been talking, you know, talking to some of my colleagues and just sort of, you know, it all just like, increasingly, you know, spiraled out of control for them. And I said, Yes. And I, you know, I didn't correct him. Eventually, I branched out of the library and you know, and went into the hospital near with with my newfound quote unquote friends. And I was able to sort of just increate myself, you know, onto whatever service I wanted to be at the vascular surgery service be the trauma service, be at the cardiothoracic service, cardiothoracic surgery service. So I was able to, you know, move around the hospital. And, you know, ingratiate myself to everyone that I had met Pratt rather easily, you know, not only because of, you know, of our conversations, you know, at the library, but certainly, because of my background in medicine, since I was a young since I was a young boy, when my grandfather, you know, came to me one day, and had the great bright idea of wanting to introduce his beloved grandson to his, to his profession,
Aaron Harmon:for someone who is passionate about medicine, having access to a hospital like that, being able to go around and experience and see what just be amazing.
Unknown:Yeah, and it really was, and like I said, you know, it captivated me. And I was awestruck by it. And so it's sort of fed into my, you know, my, my fantasy or my dream of becoming a physician. As crazy as it sounds, if you can imagine yourself just wanting something so badly your new life, and you really knew that you were never going to get it. And because at that time, you know, my gray, I didn't have the grades to go to medical school, I didn't have to didn't have the grades to you know, to seriously do really of anything, because I was depressed, and I wasn't really focusing on my schoolwork and my you know, and in my pre med studies in college, so I sort of let that go by the wayside. And I just didn't have you know, what I needed, you know, grade wise, and GPA wise to really go to seriously go to medical school, and I knew that I that probably wasn't ever going to be the case. So, um, I sort of, you know, I sort of took that, and I spun it in a different direction. And I, you know, ended up, you know, impersonating a surgical resident, you know, at UCLA for however many months, I did it eight, nine months, whatever it was, and, and sort of took my misguided dream. And, you know, turned it into, quote, unquote, reality, if you will,
Aaron Harmon:when I heard your story, it immediately made me think of someone who is wanting to get into a job. And we have, you know, in the biotech or medical device space, we need a lot of qualified people to come in and help develop these products and get them to market. And they might not have the qualifications as well, it's a bit harder to work through that when there's not a standardized license or degree in place, necessarily. Sure. Would it be a fair comparison to say that what happened to you at UCLA might be similar to someone who applied for a job and interviewed really well, but maybe didn't have that same skill set to get in and then got in and just kind of went in that role?
Unknown:Well, I would certainly say that it's possible now whether that that person would have, you know, the passion and the zeal and the determination, if you will, to do what I did, and take it to that level? Um, you know, not everybody, you know, certainly, you know, would do that. But, um, the impetus, you know, and, you know, the, the groundwork, you know, could certainly be there for someone to, you know, commit such a fraud of the biotech, you know, industry as, as you know, as you were talking about, and, you know, so I mean, certainly that threat, um, you know, exists not only in your industry, but in many other industries, you know, around the world and around the country,
Aaron Harmon:in our space, I don't think it would be considered fraud at all, it would be, Oh, you got hired for a job you weren't really good at, we're gonna let you go. And that would be the end of it. Right. And sometimes they don't get let go, they can continue on. For years, what I understand about the field of medicine is you have very rigid credentials, you've got a license, you've got standardized process you work through, when you get into the biotech space, you have a degree, but even then there's a lot of wiggle room about if you don't have a degree and how many years of experience, but there isn't as much of a standardized processes the field of medicine has.
Unknown:Right. And that will make a lot of sense, obviously, because there's not, you know, there's, there's not the licensure aspect of it. So you don't have to go through the rigorous, you know, process of getting licensed and getting vetted, and, you know, and doing all those things. So, yeah, so I can certainly see, you know, along those lines in that aspect, where it would be much easier to perpetrate, you know, you know, of fraud or, or something like that, you know, along those lines. And, you know, in the context of what you were talking about,
Diane Cox:Dr. Littman if you don't mind, I'm sure some of the listeners might be asking, you know, how for eight or nine months is what you said how, how for that long had had your credentials, and your background not been checked? Is there? Is there a routine check that you just happen to get through or get passed or were there no checks along that timeframe?
Unknown:In my case, you know, I sort of just you know, showed up one day as You know, as I was telling you, I should have showed up in the library, and then you know, and ended up, you know, reading and researching and doing what I did for a couple of months. And then when it came time for me to actually, um, you know, when I actually branched out into the hospital, I wasn't really a resident, right? You know, I didn't go through any, you know, specific, you know, credential checks or anything like that, because I wasn't specifically on anybody's team. Nobody was really asking about me, and nobody says, Oh, hey, how is this person here? Why is this person here, and not only that, but I was just really able to be because of my, you know, my really astute knowledge of medicine since I was a young boy, since I was 19 years old, when I started studying medicine. Um, you know, after my grandfather took me into the operating room that day, I can remember that specific day, it was clearly as I'm sitting here talking to you, at least for me, I knew that there was nothing else I ever wanted to do with my life to be a doctor. So I've always sort of just, you know, catered, you know, and I've always had just allowed me to just sort of, you know, cater myself to, you know, be always be a physician and always take that route, because it was, you know, I knew that there was not one I know, there was nothing else I wanted to do in life other than that, but getting back to your specific question, um, the answer to in a nutshell, the answer would be no, because of the reasons I just said, You, I wasn't really a resident, and I wasn't really assigned to any specific team in the hospital or any specific arm, you know, branch in the hospital division in the hospital, I was sort of just making it up as I went along. And because, you know, and because of my, you know, my vast knowledge of medicine, you know, that I've studied in high school and in college, and, you know, certainly as a pre med and all that, I was able to keep up the charade probably much longer than anybody, you know, could have ever expected even certainly than I ever expected. You know, I never expected, you know, to, to have that, to do to have it last as long as it did, or for it to spiral out of control the way it did the thought,
Diane Cox:Dr. Barnes, he took extraordinary steps to deceive and didn't stop after his actions cause someone's death, in your case, never got to the point of treating patients, but I guess, do you have any insight into how an employer may recognize when someone is not qualified?
Unknown:Sure, that's a great question. You know, like, like I was alluding to before, for me, not having, you know, not having the proper credentials and not having, you know, everything that I that I, you know, certainly, you know, everything that I needed as a physician or even as a as a pseudo physician, if you will, back then, you know, allowed me to, you know, like I said, you know, run your Renfree and have free rein, you know, free rein of the hospital of UCLA and, and not only UCLA Medical School, but UCLA Hospital in one of the best hospitals in the world. So for me, I was able to, you know, I was able to ingratiate myself and I was able to, you know, get around the hospital with relative ease, really getting getting to your point, I am the only person I ever hurt, you know, in my life in the end, and even after all my escapades and everything that I did at UCLA, was myself, yeah, okay. You know, I never, you know, I never treated or touched or operated on or did procedures on anyone, okay, or in any capacity as a physician at UCLA, and I was always very, very careful to extricate myself from situations wherever I could even have the potential to be, to be to to be in that situation. Okay. So that was a difference for me. Right. I mean, that that is a line that I never would have and never did cross. Yeah. So I think that's where, you know, Mr. Barnes, and my stories diverge, you know, right there. But and, you know, and really, you know, getting getting back to that. The last point I'll make on that is, you know, the Los Angeles cities, you know, city attorney's office and UCLA, you know, did a almost 10 months, did you know, 10 or 11 month investigation into whether I did exactly that. And so whether I treated anybody I operated on anybody or did procedures on me or practice medicine in any real conceivable way, you know, at the end of that event, at the end of that 10 month long investigation, they never charged me with practicing medicine without a license for one simple reason, because it never happened. Yeah. And you know, and they do, and they knew that. So again, I was always very, very careful not to cross that line, that is a line that I would never cross and that and because I didn't cross that line, I'm sitting here talking to you today as an actual fully boarded physician.
Diane Cox:Right, right. Absolutely.
Aaron Harmon:I wish in the get prosecuted for practicing science without a license.
Unknown:That would be that would be one for the books. But getting back to getting getting back to Dan's question, you know, you I believe you asked me if there's, you know, like the security risk and how to identify you know, how to identify, you know, possibly potentially potentially fraudulent, you know, worker, right. Yeah. Like in your environment. You know, there's always telltale subtle signs on You know, they are there, you know, they may not have the knowledge, they may not have, you know, the acumen, they may not have the ability to communicate with others, you know, certainly on a level that would be expected of them. I'm sure there's, you know, there's physical attributes and, you know, being able to always, you know, look into, you know, to somebody's eyes and tell if they're lying to you or not. But, you know, I think that's a that's an probably another subject for another day.
Diane Cox:So, so all that said, I can't imagine it's been an easy road to continue pursuing your dreams in medicine, can you tell us about the challenges you faced?
Unknown:Sure, we'll take it from 1998. I've been caught at UCLA, and it was over. And I was just, you know, waiting for them to finish their investigation. So they could, you know, so we could finish up the case. So after the investigation, and was complete, and they came out, and stated that, you know, what, we've looked into this for 10 months he Neo, you know, there's no evidence that he ever practice medicine without a license, other than the prescriptions and things that I you know, that I had, you know, ridiculously and outrageously written, and, and things like that, but those are just for like, minor antibiotic things, and that I've written for a friend, and it wasn't even for a hospital patients. So, and again, not not negating the serious of seriousness of that, and what it was and what it, what it there could have been, I think a huge thing for me was initially, you know, when they charged me with everything to the charge of what they charged with six or seven misdemeanors, or whatever, or whatever it is, it was a huge distinction for me was that I had never even originally from its inception, none of my charges were ever felonies. And so I'm not a convicted felon, I was never even, you know, charged with a felony in my life. So these were all misdemeanors in the end, and that truly is what saved me. So because had any of these been felonies or had been convicted of a felony or actually done something on somebody and you know, treated somebody at all? I mean, clearly, you know, my chief prosecuting attorney, Mr. Mark Lambert, great guy said in my article, they said, Look, you know, we looked into this, and again, um, you know, there was absolutely no evidence that Dr. Litwin treated or had any contact, real contact with patients or anything had he had done so he would have clearly been treated much differently. Okay. So I mean, yeah,
Diane Cox:yeah. Now, just having your story out there, and people knowing of this, did you Did you face any hardship as you were moving along, and you're, you know, actually going to med school and then jobs thereafter?
Unknown:Before my article came out last year, you know, in the LA Times, and, you know, it was published on the front page of the LA Times, and we'll we'll get, we'll get into what, you know, how my life has been over the past year? Um, but I don't think that's your question, your immediate question I am, but you know, so like, in medical school, um, you know, really no one, you know, and I never really had, I never really had an issue with it in medical school. And and, you know, in my medical school application, it had asked, um, you know, have you ever been convicted of any, have you ever been convicted of a felony, you know, in your life? And so I was able to answer no to that question. Right, legitimately able to answer that, legally, it will answer no to that question. So, as I've stated before, that, that was really, you know, the impetus that that allowed me to move on and move through medical school and, and complete my training and, you know, complete and graduate from medical school. So going through medical school, you know, so there, there are a few people who knew about my story, like my closest and dearest friends who I told, okay, about what happened. So but you know, no one really, you know, no one really, like Googled me or, you know, that I can think of, and that it really ever became a problem. You know, as I was going through medical school, so it never, it never really came up. Alright, so I was able to, you know, which was good. In a way I didn't have to explain, you know, what happened in the past, and I was just able to just, you know, move through medical school, and just, you know, as soon as nothing else as if nothing ever really happened. And I was able to do that, for the most part, I'll share a very interesting story with you that I think you might find interesting. So in my second year of medical school, I had just just finished up my basic sciences, the first two years of medical school, and I was getting ready to take my board exams, the USMLE, or the United States medical licensing exam, of which, um, if I could just briefly explain there's so these are the medical boards, there's three parts to the USMLE the United States Medical life, there's there's three steps step one, step two, and step three. So step one you take after your second year of medical school, and it's required before you're able to go on into your third third year of medical school, which you where you're actually in the hospital and doing clinical rotations. So you have to take and pass that exam before you're even allowed into the hospital as a third year medical student, if that makes sense. Step two. There's two parts of step two, there's clinical knowledge step two clinical knowledge, what's called CK and Then CS and clinical skills. So those are taken in your fourth year of medical school, just before you before you graduate and are required to graduate from medical school, and actually you earn your earn your MD. And then there's step three, which is the last part of the medical boards, which actually just took and passed last year or two years ago, actually, that was obviously really bittersweet. You know, when I passed step three of, you know, the, the final step of my step on my medical boards to become a fully border physician. And so that was really, that was really something, but what I was trying to make the point I was trying to get to, before Diane, so in my second year in medical school, you know, to sort of mitigate the damage that was going to be done at UCLA, my attorney back then had asked me for a letter of, you know, sort of like a letter of recommendation, like a letter of the law stating my good, you know, sitting on, you know, some of the things that I had accomplished and done, you know, in the course of my life, and, you know, to sort of mitigate, you know, what was happening, you know, for UCLA case. So, um, and again, you know, this is like, this is truly the biggest mistake of my life, even here, probably even more so than UCLA. Alright. But I ridiculously and outrageously, you know, in 1998 created a letter that I, you know, that I wrote, you know, basically created a letter that was saying it was from the National Board of Medical examiners, and that I had, um, you know, taken in past one, one specific one certain part of the medical boards, and I did really well on it. And anyway, long story short, I, you know, I egregious Lee, wrote that letter and sent it to my lawyer who submitted it to the court, and all of that, fast forward 10 months. In the course of the investigation, well, they found the letter, okay. And they did, they did their own investigation, they knew the letter, the letter that I had written, all, you know, wasn't real, it wasn't true. So they sent it to the National Board of Medical Examiners during the nbme. And in fact, this is back in 1998, the nbme had, you know, they did their own investigation, they realized, you know, this is not true, this has not happened, this is fraudulent all this, you know, he knew he never, you know, we never we have no record of him, you know, whatsoever. Alright, so fast forward 14 years, Diane, I'm in my second year of medical school, I'm getting ready to take step one legitimately take, you know, the medical boards, okay? I submit my application to the nbme to ecfmg and all that, and my application went through just fine, no problem. And I, I sat for my, for my for my board exam for my for step one of my board exam, took it pass it done, okay, no, you know, everything was everything was was perfectly fine and no issues whatsoever. Five months later, I get an email from the National Board of Medical Examiner's saying, you know, Dear Mr. Litwin basically we found the letter hmm. Okay, so basically then they had you know, they had they had the letter in their possession for 16 years. Okay. There was nothing there's there was nothing they could do about it back in 1990 Back in 1998, because I wasn't in medical school. I wasn't a medical student nine you know, they had no jurisdiction over me whatsoever. Right. Right. Okay, but you know, fast forward to 2014 You know, when I'm you know, when I'm in my second year of medical school and legitimately applying to take my medical boards Well, now they you can understand they have all the power right. So and it but again, what was you know, the craziest thing to me is that they didn't you know, they didn't find this you know, to beginning you in the beginning when I first applied you know, they accepted my application, I took my I took my exam without any problems or issues. Um, so it was a little strange to me the timing all this but anyway, fast like I said, fast forward five months later, I get that letter, I get an email from the nbme saying, yo, dear, dear Mr. Litwin, you know, we basically bottom line we found the letter we're charging you with what they call quote unquote irregular behavior. Alright. And they hold my asked before the before the the 15 member, you know, medical, you know, the 15 member disciplinary committee panel, you know, of the entire National Board of Medical examiners in Philadelphia. Alright, so you can understand what I was up against. Now, you know, it's been a couple of months preparing for that hearing. And you know, just writing an explanation you know, as to what happened just being as matter of fact, being as matter of fact, as I possibly could and just and just full disclosure and just, you know, basically laying you know, laying my heart and my soul on the line, you know, it's all of them. spent two months I spent a couple months preparing for my hearing. Finally my hearing day I flew to Philadelphia, and a hearing day came for two and a half hours. Alright, I sat you know, in a, you know, in a room in an executive room, you know, with you at the at the headquarters, the National Board of Medical examiners and Philadelphia are getting grilled. Okay. By, you know, the these people are like, you know, the deans of you know, Stanford Medical School, the Dean's of Duke, the Dean's of Yale, the Dean's of Baylor. Okay, so you can again, you can really imagine what I was up against here, I spent two and a half hours just presenting my case, just answering every single question that the board had, for me, truthfully, and honestly. And I left there, honestly, not knowing, you know, I'm like, Oh, my God, like is my, like, my career is over before it even starts. And just like freaking out, so month later, I get I get the I get the decision letter, I get the nbme decision letter. And it's basically just, I mean, I was so shocked Diane and Aaron, I mean, I couldn't even believe it. Okay, let me just get into what they could have done, they could have barred me from the medical boards for life, they could have canceled, you know, my step one score, they could have canceled my board scores, they could have reported your regular behavior to the Federation of State medical boards, which is basically oversees all the state medical boards in this country. Okay. So you can understand, like, if one report goes to, you know, goes to the FSM B, or the Federation of State medical boards and Physician Data Center, um, you know, that could have profound negative consequences on an already, you know, I mean, with, you know, on top of already what I was dealing with, right? So, they could have done all of that. Okay. So in the end, they did not do any of that. They simply see, they simply said that, you know, we find you guilty of irregular behavior. But we are not putting any restrictions on your exams, you can sit and take any board exam anytime you want. There's no restrictions on you. We're not, we're not even going to report this to the Federation of State medical boards. Okay. Basically, all they did was just they put a notation on the bottom of my of my, of my medical board transcripts saying that, you know, this, this individual was, you know, determined to have committed a regular behavior by the Executive Committee of the nbme. You know, here in here's an explanation of what happened. Okay. So, um, they did that. And that is all that they did to me. And I am sitting here, today, a physician because of what they did. And because they believe me, and they knew I was telling them the truth, and they believe that I had been rehabilitated.
Diane Cox:I guess, just a quick clarification, you said that, you know, this was months later, or years later, after the letter was written. Do you have any insight as to why that took so long for them to discover or what, what the trigger was for that to come up?
Unknown:So that's, I mean, that's, that's a great question. That's a great question. And I do not have the answer to that. And I don't think I ever will have the answer to that. Yeah. As to what you know, as to what triggered it. And, you know, like, like, like, like, the timing of it. Like, why not? Before, you know why, you know, why? prove my exam, you know, allow me to sit for my exam and take my exam. And then five months later, all of a sudden, I get a letter saying, Well, you know, your doctor lit when we found the letter. Mm hmm. You know, so the timing of that is certainly questionable. But I don't have an answer as to I truly do not have an answer as to what the time Yes, as to why they took them five months after I took and passed step one for them to, you know, to do that, but clearly, you know, they have a letter in their possession for 16 years. Right. And, you know, what, how or why they found it, then if that's at that specific time, again, is a mystery to me. And a mystery to, you know, everyone that I've talked to, but, you know, again, I don't think I'll ever truly have the answer to that. So, you know, yeah, those say about that.
Aaron Harmon:So what is next for you in your career?
Unknown:I am currently I'm actually so I am currently on my medical license is actually on appeal in Missouri. That's another video so you're talking about the negative consequences to my, you know, to my career, right, and we are the opposite the obstacles that I have faced, you know, since becoming a physician and trying to, you know, move on with my career, if you will. After graduating from medical school, Missouri, the state of Missouri is in such bad need of Doc's that they create a new program called the assistant physician program. You rouse recent medical school graduates to come and you know, to come down to Missouri, be licensed by the medical by the Missouri Medical Board, and come down and be assistant physicians, and open up our own practice and your practice in rural areas where Doctor needed the most under the supervision of another licensed physician. Um, long story short, I applied to the Missouri medical board for my medical license. That was two years ago, and I had my final appeal hearing. Actually last Last week, and, you know, so I'm suddenly on my lap, my license is again, so actively pending in Missouri. But to say it's been a struggle to say it's been a battle, to say it's been, you know, one of the greatest uphill battles of my life would probably be an understatement. Clearly, I knew going into this process that, you know, it wasn't all going to be peaches and roses. Right. And, you know, certainly, you know, dealing with my history and dealing with everything that I had done, um, you know, especially because of pertain to the practice of medicine for the for the, you know, because I'm directly applying for, you know, being a doctor has everything to do with what my crimes and what my wrongdoing is worth 21 years ago, right. So, you know, it's not like I'm applying for, you know, to be a lawyer or to be an engineer or something like that. We're none of this was anyone, we're none of this would have any relevancy, right? I'm applying to be a physician, okay, when I impersonated a physician at one of the greatest, you know, hospitals and medical schools in the world a long time ago. So it hasn't been easy. I submitted my application to the Missouri medical board. And was you know, and here's the, here's another interesting tidbit, I think that you guys will find fairly fascinating. We talked about, um, we talked about my misdemeanor criminal record, and we talked about it not, you know, never being felonies and all that. What I didn't get into was 10 years ago, I had applied to the judge to the judge back in California, who, over he oversaw my UCLA case, I had applied to have my entire misdemeanor criminal record expunged. Okay, basically, white clean, all right, and applied to the judge and the court to do that, and went down there, I had hearings. And in the end, the judge fully granted my expungements. Okay, so basically wiped my entire misdemeanor criminal record. And that is why I was able to go to medical school and become a physician and do what I was able to do. Because the judge did that.
Aaron Harmon:I'm so impressed. I guess, it is hard work for someone to get into medical school, and to be successful in medical school. And to do that, plus everything else you had to overcome, to get through that, just I think, really speaks to how passionate you are about medicine.
Diane Cox:Yeah, yeah, I kind of feel like that's the theme throughout all of this interview is you have such a passion, you did whatever it took. And wow, I've never heard a story quite like it.
Unknown:I did I and I'm still doing it guys. And, you know, you can't, you know, um, I guess, you know, in the end, my advice to everyone out there is if you have a dream, you know, don't give up on it, do whatever it takes to realize it don't do what I did. But, you know, um, you know, don't take it to that level on that extreme. But, you know, certainly just, you know, in all, with all proper means, you know, just never, never give up and never know, and never, you know, let it go. And always, always do what your heart, you know, what your heart desires and what your what your passion in life has been? You know, getting back, you know, so getting back to me, if I could just finish up about the medical board here. Sure. So, um, I applied for my medical license. And, again, I had I had my entire record expunged. So basically, you know, there are questions, and I had been told by the judge that, you know, if you're ever asked a question, have you ever been arrested? Or have you ever been convicted of a crime before I had the legal right to answer no. Okay, all right. I didn't do that. All right, I still disclose everything to the Missouri medical board, just because I couldn't I mean, I couldn't do that, you know, I mean, I'm not that person anymore. You know, I need I'm a doctor, I'm a physician, I need to be doing things, you know, on the level of full transparency and just, you know, whatever happened in the past, you have to accept the consequences to my actions. And, you know, that's how I need to go about conducting myself. So that is exactly what I did. Okay, contrary to legal advice, okay. I still disclosed everything to the board. All right, what I did not have to, when I should end in the end, they hold they hold my butt before the medical board, you know, as well. And I had to, you know, had a two hour hearing with them and, you know, Dr. Litwin, you know, how could this happen? Dr. Litwin? How could you let this happen? You know, just questions like that, you know, what I mean? And answering them, you know, every single question that we had truthfully and honestly, but in the end, and I think you guys are gonna find this very interesting in the end, um, you know, the Missouri medical board. They did not they initially denied my license, which again, is on you know, is on appeal right now, and it's still pending on the courts. But then the medical board initially denied my license because they straight up thought I was lying to their faces about not having treated anybody touched anybody or practice medicine at UCLA had Dr. Liu When How could you have done all those things for eight or nine months and never not having ever never treated a patient never touched the patient operator on a patient? Okay, so I was sitting there literally pouring my heart and soul out to them telling them the truth about everything. Right when I didn't even have to write. And, you know, they determined in the end that I was lying to their faces about you know, what happened at UCLA 21 years ago.
Diane Cox:Wow. And
Unknown:subsequently, you know, not you know, now, we certainly have, you know, Mark Lambert, statements mayo, my chief prosecuting attorney, the statements, that Chief prosecuting attorney statements having come out in the articles saying, look, again, I'm hard pressed to find another case, where, you know, and like mine might, where someone's chief prosecuting attorney actually came out in public on the front page of the LA Times saying, look, okay, once again, guys, this never happened. He never treated patients he never had, you know, he never touched patients who never did any of those things. You know, so I mean, in one sentence, okay. Mark Lambert in refuted in one sentence on the front page of the LA Times. The whole reason, the whole entire reason, the Missouri Medical Board denied my license. I mean, that has been really hard to live with.
Aaron Harmon:Whether they have all that. Well, hey, we have to wrap up. It's really good talking to you. Yeah. Great
Diane Cox:speaking to you. Thank you so much.
Unknown:You're very welcome. And good luck with everything and good stuff.
Aaron Harmon:hope the best for you. Now we'll take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors.
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Aaron Harmon:We'd like to talk more about employee qualification and its impact on quality. And joining us in this conversation is Bill McGucket. From Oxenham group located in Sioux Falls. Welcome to the show, Bill. Thank you. Yeah. So Bill, can you tell us about Oxenham group give us some more information,
Unknown:I'd be happy to. And thanks for having me today. So oxygen group is just over a year old. And I have two business partners back in New Jersey. And we focus on three main areas life sciences, technology and nonprofit, I tend to run the life sciences pieces, I've been running consulting teams primarily focused on quality validation services. And historically, pharmaceutical, biotech and med device companies bring on specialists to either respond to FDA guidances, or support their internal team to give an additional perspective on good quality practices. So we started the accident group, because we always felt that the process of bringing on a consultant or a full time person should be really rich and meaningful. You're talking about goals and opportunities and the success of the organization. And historically, the bar has been a little bit lower as of late. There's there's low barriers of entry into the industry. It's very lucrative, and we thought there was a gap where we could really improve and help companies perform better and better and better people. The main focus of what we do and really our elixir is we align personal goals with organizational missions. When you have qualified and engaged people to support an organization, business is better. And that's our focus to help companies be better and safer
Aaron Harmon:in terms of qualification of individuals. The FDA defines it as personnel having the right training background education to do the job they're in. But there's much more than just do they have that skill set? And it sounds like your company is very much involved with going beyond that and saying, are there other characteristics in the person that make them a better fit for the organization?
Unknown:Absolutely. You always have to find the narrative, the story, why somebody's applying why they'd be a good fit? And does this opportunity really make sense for all parties involved. So we have a pretty distinct process, proprietary process, and I'll go through it for a few seconds here. So first, we have four full time recruiters. Their job is to all day every day, identify people who are actively and passively on the market, and understand why they may want to engage and start a new job. They're supported by a team of subject matter experts in our core areas within quality, which are kappa quality measuring systems, validation audits, and we've learned through this group of subject matter experts there's like a rule of three almost like the game back to bacon. If you remember growing up where this subject matter expert either know somebody or knows of somebody that worked with this person. So we always find out where the personal work are they on a remediation program are they are a solid quality consultant, how they do where they liked, they they perform things safe safely, were they effective. So that's our first step of the process. There's then a really thorough technical screening to ensure the people are who they say they are, that they have the core capabilities that they say either on their CV or through the interview process. We then have these behavioral questions that were developed by sociologists. And that really focuses on risk, conflict philosophy. How does the person work? How do they think? And how would they really adapt to the organization where they're starting to work with? And then finally, there's a Gallup Clifton Strengths Assessment. What that does is it focuses on if you hire this person, what are their core strengths? Are they intuitive? Are they aggressive? Are they thoughtful? And if you bring them on, how will they respond and relate to your current team? Gallup has done studies and when you do hire people, and focus on their strengths, and really give them opportunities to optimize their skill set, they're six times more likely to be engaged. And then on the background, there's some things that we absolutely have to focus on, particularly in the life sciences, industry references. People leave jobs all the time. And sometimes people are asked to leave a job. But that's okay. We want a reference from their direct manager or stakeholder. How is the person? How do they conduct their job? Can you please be diligent in the reference, because this person is going to be in a position where your safety is at stake. And there's some pretty pretty high stakes for the role. So that references is key, we do a criminal background check. And then we also work with hire right? For a FDA department. You know, there could be a up to a 250,000 or million dollar fine if a company knowingly brings on somebody that was either barred more, wasn't fully qualified, and they get involved in something that's dangerous. So Bill, how does having the wrong people in roles impact product quality? Let's Good question. Diane, I think there's probably three main areas technically, financially, and culturally, technically, when you talk about quality, you're impacting people's lives, the devices and products could really affect somebody. So you want to get it right, you want to make sure that the person is screened properly, and can do what they say they're able to do. Financially, if you hire the wrong people, your organization could get a 43 a warning letter or either go under consent decree, This really hurts the reputation of a company. And think about the financial impact. It costs people's their their lives or careers, could cost them their jobs, the trickle down effect is is tremendous. And then culturally, no qualified and engaged teams simply perform better for which just released a study saying that when you have a qualified and engaged team, it's likely to be up to 20% more successful. So having the right people isn't just checking a box or looking at a CV, it's really understanding the entire process, kind of the ecosystem, if you will. And when you get people running in the right direction, that are highly engaged want to be there, and a personal goals align with the organizational mission, you're just setting yourself up for much more success. So take it seriously. It's very important.
Aaron Harmon:So I think about the stories of Gerald Barnes and Adam Litwin. Gil Barnes was obviously in there for the wrong reasons. He was being malicious, he was taking advantage of people specifically for financial gains. But I'm Adam Litwin had such a passion for medicine, that I think that's what really drew him into that. I think that is such a differentiator between those two stories. And knowing that there can be such a difference, such a difference, I can imagine that impact on organization, if someone is either really engaged, their potential to drive that organization together, and further is probably way better than the other one who is there fumbling around but not really engaged at all?
Unknown:Certainly, I think engagement comes in many forms. We'll speak with customers and med device companies, biotech companies, technology companies, and they they hire from the gut, I think this person would be great. I love the cut of his jib. Or they're dressed well, they they shook hands and made great eye contact. Now that that's dangerous, and Gallup calls that a glare factor. People can be engaged in many different ways. Maybe they're not outgoing. Maybe they're introverts. But having that diversity on a team is going to allow the team to identify different character character traits, among its respective members, and really allow people to think differently and see different opportunities and different ways to handle a situation or an issue. So a great way to increase engagement is look at the person and really figure out what is the true story? Why do they want this role, and maybe what I thought as a hiring manager, what this perfect person was, maybe I challenge myself a bit and say, I thought I want a certain person because I may be comfortable, but by bringing in a diverse, engaged person, different characteristics could improve the organization improve this hiring process.
Aaron Harmon:Once the person's on a team, you still have responsibility to train them for the role. We have training programs. There is regulations around that also, one of the areas where I can see there being problems that this someone's not engaged and you try to train a not engaged individual. Your chance of getting them qualified to do the role is much slimmer than the person who's really engaged.
Unknown:You know, there's that there's a saying that says hire slow and fire quickly. And it sounds callous, but it is true. I mean, how many times have we been the person or like have a person that was just the wrong fit in the wrong role. And those first 10 minutes, your stomach is doing flip flops, nobody's worried. When it's all said and done, everybody feels relieved, the person's able to go find a role where they are more engaging, do a better job, and you can bring somebody on that you can train accordingly and properly. So I think that's always good advice, a little bit tough to swallow. But nine times out of 10, when you have done the right documentation, and went through the performance metrics and, and done the performance management, if someone's not the right fit, and have a conversation, be deliberate, and move on, Bill, you had gone through kind of your three steps of your proprietary mechanism for engaging employees with companies. And I believe it was your second step where you'd mentioned, kind of doing the background checks looking into we know whether they whether a person's resume actually reflects the truth in their previous jobs. Can you give us a little insight into what kinds of things might be flagged during that stage? Sure, I think very often someone will say, was involved in, assisted with partook in these different events or milestones within a project, versus the words responsible for reported on things of that nature. So you want to look for keywords, and then see what surrounds those keywords to really get a feel for Okay, so you were involved in a 510 K submission. So who actually did the writing? who actually did the submitting? And you'll have someone say, Oh, well, I had somebody that did that. But I supported them or I was involved in that. And it helps for us to have these subject matter experts who have done this work for years. And they could smell it a mile away. And they asked a couple, you know, leading questions, get them comfortable. And then they get into the details and the specifics. And people can handle it. Even like if I said, Hey, I'm I'm a huge New York giant fan. And someone said, Hey, what do you think their offensive line? And I said, what's an offensive line? It wouldn't go very well. Those are the types of probing questions where you can really feel for what somebody is made of.
Aaron Harmon:To ensure someone's qualified for a role, you have to define the role in the first place, you need a role profile, then you have to have a CV, that's there evidence of previous experience and training. The next step is all your training, you need the training records as well to show that yes, they have been trained for the role that they're now in, and they're qualified individual. Having that being an engaged person makes all that process much easier.
Unknown:Absolutely. And I think it's important for the hiring manager stakeholder to make it clear what the expectations will be first day, first week, first quarter, you go through this process of highly emotional, again, read you're interviewing getting the job, sometimes it could be a letdown, you come to you come to work, and you're reading SOPs for the first two weeks. So any good manager, make sure you take time to understand here's where you're going to be, here's where you're going to set up your reporting to hear our standards, the first couple of weeks will be slow as you go through the SOPs go through our learning management system. To set those expectations. One tool
Aaron Harmon:that I would use for that process was the onboarding checklist that would call out, you know, day negative something, get these elements in place for that arrival, the employee Day Zero and play arrive, they need this training this training. And I could share that with them and they can see what the schedule is, for that first two weeks to get them up and running.
Diane Cox:I think that also kind of gives the new employee a little bit of a little bit of respect for the company that they've you know, taken the time to get organized before they come on board. They actually seem to you know, have an agenda versus just kind of winging it once the employee comes on. So I think that looks nice to the employee. From their perspective,
Unknown:it's little things you know, someone left an organization that took this new role they a lot of faith in you and what you're doing as an organization, so have maybe a plant there maybe a little handwritten letter saying Welcome to the organization, have a dedicated time to answer any questions whether it'd be silly or or very important and critical. And having time to explain you know, what that onboarding process will be. I also highly recommend and this is also backed by a statistics and science is have that performance management process. Millennials in particular, I think, are 35 to 40% more likely to leave if there isn't a true documented performance measure process. It could be something done and just an Excel spreadsheet, or there's numerous ones that are available for very affordable online, where they walk you through the soft skills and hard skills and the predetermined expectations, the KPIs, don't overlook that element because you will lose your employees and they won't tell you until their exit interview. I can't put enough emphasis on that.
Aaron Harmon:One thing I had done in the past was compare job descriptions posted on recruitment sites. And there's worlds of difference between a well defined well planned out job description versus a few bullet points. I think that also goes into early on getting confidence in the organization as you're going through the interview process because you know what you're signing up for, I have interviewed for roles, and did not know exactly what the role was until halfway through the interview, which was kind of alarming because
Unknown:although we'll say that if you are going to bring on somebody in a manager or director role, though they're being brought on to manage and direct. So give yourself a little bit of flexibility to allow them to help write their final job description, if they do have that type of role. Think about how much you improve engager from the get go.
Aaron Harmon:So I have a wild idea that I've been loved to spend time trying to see if it's useful or not. Yeah, I was looking at a company that had a warning letter from the FDA, and then went to Glassdoor and look that company up, and was looking at comments from the employees. Prior to the FDA warning letter. The company was getting one star ratings from employees, and they were calling out specific things like low staffing numbers, high levels of demand on the employees, a lot of chaos and lack of direction. That was about four months later, they get an FDA inspection. And they had significant findings and resulted in a warning letter, which made me wonder if you could use a tool like Glassdoor, or some kind of similar thing to predict out which companies are at risk for a warning letter. That's really interesting. So Ever wondered what I do in my spare time?
Unknown:That's a good point, though. I mean, so much of the regulations that the FDA are gonna come in and look at you and assess you against are just so much based on good business practices. And we've said it before. But I think just kind of having you know, enough employees that are qualified, and they know what they're doing, and they've been trained to do their particular jobs. I think that that's just basic kind of business practice. And if that's being complained about by employees, I think that's a really good signal that there's something from a quality standpoint, that probably isn't right, either. Diane is a quality consultant. Can you think of a time where you walked into an organization and just said, they have it together? I'm gonna add some value, but they just have it all running on all cylinders? And maybe what some of those characteristics were? Yeah, yeah. Actually, I'm, it's happened a few times. So that's, that's a good sign, I think. But I think the biggest kind of notable differences between those types of companies and others, are just kind of the confidence that people speak with, when they're presenting their projects, when they're discussing kind of where they are, from a status standpoint, they just very much are very clear that they understand what they're doing that they've done it before, you can definitely tell it's not their first rodeo, versus kind of on the flip side, coming into a company who kind of makes me a little bit more nervous. Those are going to be more of the ones that are, you know, they're not sure they're not speaking with confidence, they definitely haven't done it before. Or maybe they haven't done something in the medical device or pharmaceutical industry before. Maybe something similar, but not quite. Those are the companies that I can kind of tell a difference in as far as, you know, qualifications and, and just general kind of efforts needed to get them up to par. We've been talking a little bit about selection criteria and interview. And what about the people that are being interviewed? We've done some pretty extensive work with CEOs and CFOs, and CEOs as to what are they really looking for when they're hiring, intelligent, well educated professionals. And you'd be surprised, you can get some of the most accomplished people you've ever known to go and interview and they're a bundle of nerves, they're really unable to do a nice job. So we were able to boil it down to three main things to really focus on, as you're interviewing for kind of a high value, high intensity, type role, or core job, if you will. The first one is have your narrative, you're being asked to come to an organization. And it's not an open ended question to just not leave anything out. You know, why you're why you're entering for the role, what skills are transferable, why you're particularly interested in the company in the industry, and some questions for that company. That narrative should be something that you're able to spit out in front of a mirror and spit out in your sleep. And it really does show that you prepare you prepare accordingly. The second one is brevity. Tom Petty has a song called refugee that says you and me We both know something, we don't feel the need to talk much about it. Give the person interviewing you a little bit of credit. They know you're capable, they reviewed your CV. They know what your general skill set is. When you're asked a question about where you're from, or what you did just answer the question, and then maybe your turn and say, Hey, where are you from? Or how's your family handling COVID It really does play well. And it leads to more of a peer to peer discussion. And the third one is if you really want to come off as interesting. You want to be deeply interested. It's easy for you to go through all of your qualifications and certifications. But you know what, that's boring. But if you say how did you organization handling this new FDA guidance or boy, I saw your Glassdoor review just went up by a full star of the last 12 months. What caused that to happen? Or do you use these systems or these tools, you're showing that you have these capabilities, but you're dripping with interest in them. And you're much more likeable, and much more interesting. Not unlike the typical social cues you've grown up with. You meet somebody at a cocktail party, and they start talking about where they're from, and where they work and what they do. You're going to get your drink and get away as soon as possible. They ask about you and who you're married to, and what you do for a living and you find some common ground. It's a much more tolerable conversation, same thing in the interview process.
Aaron Harmon:Now, is there a reversal on this, somebody's going to interview? Are there signs, they should not that that would not be an organization that be a fit for them that they should take away from an interview?
Unknown:I think so if you're truly interested in a company, and you and you go in there, not trying to impress, but try and understand, oh, no, if you're, you're you likely know if you're going to be successful for that company. And after six months, once, once the honeymoon phase is over, you're probably going to either leave or be asked to leave because it wasn't the right fit to begin with. I mean, the unemployment rate for educated roles right now is dropping. In Sioux Falls, for example, it's 3.4%, which means that most people are working, there's a lot of jobs out there. So be selective, really take the time to ensure that you identify whether or not to fit, because your career. And if the arc of your career, the narrative, if this lends to you either being more valuable, or learning some certain skills or progressing your career, if that makes sense and take the job, but be selective. I'll give you just an example. So we're working on a regulatory affairs position for a company out in the Northeast. And it's a startup company, and this job may end up going really well. The company may lose funding, we have no idea. And so as we're speaking with these upwardly mobile Regulatory Affairs experts were saying, How does this help your narrative long term, let's say that they go public, great, you have some equity, and you're growing and you're all of a sudden, you're the guy or gal that came in, in a consulting role, and you help them become compliant, and you help them do some amazing things. Let's say that they lose funding, well, can you then go to your next employer and say that you're ambitious and willing to take on risk, and even though the company lost funding, you learned X, Y, and Z, you incorporate into your narrative, and you're still more valuable in the open marketplace? These are questions you want to ask yourself, because everybody just wants to hear and understand the narrative. Yeah, that's a good perspective to build does oxen, ham, help employees or candidates with their narratives? We do. So ever since COVID, happened, we spend every Friday, just kind of giving away information supporting employees. For us, I think it's almost like getting a doctor or an MBA in sociology. So we'll do more Moxham interviews, and we'll speak with people, whether they're, you know, working in retail or their sea level. It's our way of really understanding how people think, which makes us in turn much more valuable to our clients when we are doing it for profit. Also, when we do have somebody interviewing, we try not to stack the deck or lead people. So the interviewer well, but we do try to allow them to have the right open ended questions, and the right mind frame so they can evaluate the opportunity really holistically, and in a healthy way. So if the decision is made, both parties are really satisfied. I have some interview questions. And some questions, we would ask our clients if you would find them. Interesting. That would be awesome. It's up. All right. So these are just some baseline candidate questions that are meant to be very innocuous and simple. But as you put yourself through answering these questions, think about how you would answer them. And it really will show kind of how you work and what you think I'll start with one was actually really relevant lately is define required minimum. And then we might say, don't just define it, but describe it, in your opinion. And you'll learn a little bit about how people think about quality and what they consider the required minimum. Some that are more universal is having read this job description. How does this job specifically aligned with your professional goals? Please provide an example of a similar job or project in which you were successful. Tell me a time in which you worked under extremely close or extremely loose supervision. How did you handle the situation? This gives them an opportunity to complain a little bit and you want to keep your ears perked to see if they are going to complain about an over engaged boss, a micromanager or boss it really didn't care about them. Can they take their situation and talk about what was positive what they learned from it. Give me a time when you did not meet your customers or your company's expectations and how you attempted to rectify the situation. And my favorite is to describe a time when you were clearly the resident expert, or the smartest person in the room, if you will. What was your communication strategy? You're getting them to admit that they're intelligent. You're getting given them the opportunity to brag and be pompous, to see if they can do that with poise and class. And then you're trying to see how they communicate, when they are the smartest person in the room. These are great questions. And then this one is also an intentionally awkward, because I think it's important that not everything is scripted. At the end of this engagement, what's your next career step? Well, this is a full time role, you know, you kind of see how they think and what's important to them, and you catch a little bit off guard, kind of what we kind of like those. And then, on the candidate side, what makes you proud to work at your organization? How does your organization support my professional growth? Is risk taking encouraged? And what happens when people fail? Can you give me a specific example of somebody that did that? What's the best thing your organization did over the last 12 months? What's holding the organization back specifically? And how are you addressing it? How would the organization change over the next 12 months? I understand that the mission of your company is XYZ. How does this specific role impact that overarching mission? And these are things that allow you to really know can I see myself there now? And in 12 months, and in two years?
Aaron Harmon:And those are questions that I think would come from someone who's really engaged? Yes. So I was looking for somebody who had a team and someone that could come in and really have ownership and drive the organization. If they're asking questions like that, that might give me a lot of confidence.
Bill McGuckin:I mean, if you if you ask somebody if they have any questions, and they kind of hem and haw and wonder if they do and as something very typical, we're very can, you're probably a little bit of trouble, no matter what level the role is. If you're gonna put your career in the hands of this company, you better have a ton of questions, or that's a big red flag.
Unknown:I can't tell you how many times I've been in that situation, as the interviewee just trying to think of some things that I should be kind of prepared with, from my standpoint, to be able to kind of, you know, show that I am interested, but also on the flip side, as the interviewer and just kind of watching people flounder a little bit when you ask, what kind of questions do you have for me? It's amazing how ill prepared some people can be when we're working with a company in the Midwest, I'll leave it at that. And they've had really tough reviews, really tough Glassdoor reviews, some employee turnover and things like that. And we had a really thoughtful, introverted person interview a couple weeks ago, magna cum laude, a certified all kinds of different areas, just a really strong, interesting character. And the the client said, we know in the first 10 seconds if the person is a good fit or not, we go by our gut. And all I could think about was and you wonder why your Glassdoor scores so low? I mean, maybe your gut is the issue right now. And you're suffering from that glare factor. So it's our job to coach and teach and challenge a probe and help them know that, you know, what you think you want to hire may not exactly be what's necessary to have a well balanced and highly effective team.
Aaron Harmon:I think that's a wrap. Thanks for being with us, Bill. Really appreciate it your time and being able to share with us
Unknown:that was a lot of fun. Thank you, Aaron. Thank you, Dian
Aaron Harmon:Thank you for listening, and we look forward to bringing you the next episode.
Diane Cox:We hope you enjoyed this episode. This was brought to you thanks to South Dakota biotech Association. If you have a story you'd like us to explore and share, let us know by visiting www.sd bio.org.
Aaron Harmon:Other resources for quality include the University of South Dakota's biomedical engineering department where you can find courses on quality systems, regulatory affairs, and medical product development. Also, if you live in the Sioux Falls area, check out QUIBIT a loc l Quality Assurance Professiona s Network. You can find out mo e about pivot by clicking on t e link on our website to the e d and I would like to tha k several people, but a few w o stand out or Nate pepple for h s support with audio mixi g Barbara Durrell, Christian r support with graphics design a d web. And lastly, the suppo t from South Dakota b