The Cut Flower Podcast

Rebuilding Life After Breast Cancer featuring Rosamund Dean

• Roz Chandler / Rosamund Dean • Season 1 • Episode 103

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Text Agony Aunt Roz with your Cutflower Questions.

Welcome to The Cutflower Podcast! Today, we’re diving into a deeply personal and inspiring conversation with Rosamund Dean, a renowned journalist, author, and breast cancer survivor. Rosamund’s journey and her latest book, Reconstruction, offer insights not only into surviving cancer but truly reclaiming life after it. If you or someone you know has been affected by breast cancer, this episode is one you won’t want to miss."

Episode Summary
In this heartfelt episode, Roz Chandler sits down with Rosamund Dean, author of Reconstruction, to explore her experiences with triple-negative breast cancer, from diagnosis to recovery. Rosamund shares her journey through chemotherapy, surgery, and the many stages of healing, both physical and emotional. She discusses her book's title and purpose, explaining how Reconstruction reflects the often-overlooked need to rebuild oneself post-treatment. Their conversation touches on the importance of nutrition, mental health, and the lifestyle changes that play a crucial role in managing life after cancer.

Rosamund also highlights her ongoing mission to inspire others through her writing, which includes candid discussions about wellness, the importance of exercise, and finding joy in a balanced lifestyle. From advice on navigating treatment to the significance of community support, this episode is a thoughtful resource for anyone seeking hope and resilience.

Key Takeaways

  • Prioritise Wellness: Eating more vegetables, reducing processed foods, and embracing an 80/20 approach to nutrition can support overall health and recovery.
  • Find Movement You Enjoy: Exercise, even simple walks, can significantly reduce the risk of cancer recurrence.
  • Take Control of Treatment: Write down questions for your doctors, be proactive in understanding your treatment, and don’t be afraid to ask about alternatives to medications.
  • Accept Support: Lean into the help offered by friends and family; delegation isn’t a weakness but a source of strength.
  • Mindset for Life Post-Cancer: The journey doesn’t end with treatment; acknowledge the emotional and physical adjustments needed to navigate life after cancer.

    Resources Mentioned in This Episode
    Rosamund Dean’s book: Reconstruction – A guide to healing and self-recovery post-cancer.
    Rosamund's Substack – Insights into balanced living, wellness, and mindful drinking.
    Roz Chandler on Instagram – Connect with Roz for more on her journey and resources for wellness and recovery.


[00:00:00] Roz Chandler: I am truly honoured and delighted to introduce Rosamund Dean to you today. Bye. A journalist and author and a speaker previously, de deputy editor of gia. She has contributed to Vogue L, the Times, the Telegraph, the evening standard, and women's health, as well as hosting events for Omega Sky and UBS.

[00:00:20] Roz Chandler: Wow. A lovely cv. I came across Rosamond when a friend sent me a link to an article that Rosamond had written in a broad sheet. I think it was The Telegraph. And I've since read an amazing article from last weekend's, edited by her for the Saturday Telegraph, all about those lives, the lives of those who have experienced breast cancer.

[00:00:43] Roz Chandler: I, too, have purchased Rosamund's book, called Reconstruction, which has personally helped me on my journey. And I hate the word journey, but I can't find another word for it. I've tried to find another word because it's not, it's much more than a journey and a journey suggests you're going to go somewhere really lovely and hot and sunny.

[00:01:01] Roz Chandler: And after chemo, which I've just finished, my next stage is radiotherapy, which starts in two weeks. I picked up the book just this week, last weekend, and read the chapter on radiotherapists. It's that kind of book you can just pick up and read the section you need at that time. It reassures me because I have the knowledge and I now know the questions I need to ask.

[00:01:20] Roz Chandler: So I would recommend the book Reconstruction 21. Having bought it, read it, and jump into every so often, I would recommend that, but we'll come back to that one. So as people who follow me on Instagram will know that breast cancer is very personal to me, and everybody knows when you've been diagnosed, the day, the time, what you did, how you drove.

[00:01:38] Roz Chandler: And it's always a date I remember for me was February the 12th. So I know I've got a lot of listeners that are women, and if we can help just one today, that would be amazing. So Rosamund, introduce yourself, tell us about your journey. Again, there must be another word for journey, but hey, let's introduce yourself and tell us about it.

[00:01:56] Rosamund Dean: Oh, it's so nice to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So yeah, I was diagnosed in January 2021 with stage three, grade three, triple negative breast cancer. So yeah, in terms of treatment, I had breast cancer. the works like you, I had chemotherapy I had mastectomy surgery, radiotherapy, and then I had a bit of further adjuvant chemo as well.

[00:02:21] Rosamund Dean: So it was about a year and a half in total. And yeah, throughout the reason that the book came about was because throughout treatment, I had a column in the Sunday Times Style magazine and it was my husband, Jonathan, works at the Sunday Times. He's a writer there anyway. So we wrote a column where we both said our side of it, which a lot of people really liked because it's, the person that's the support for the person with cancer, they're going through a lot as well.

[00:02:47] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, nobody really asked how they are. And so it was really interesting. Actually, it was really interesting doing that with him because sometimes we were right. We would be able to articulate something written down that maybe we hadn't really expressed to each other. So it was quite amazing. And then those columns were incredibly popular.

[00:03:04] Rosamund Dean: And then at the end of that yeah, I, I decided to write a book and it's called Reconstruction, not because it's specifically about breast reconstruction, although, yeah that, that is included in there, but it's really more about putting yourself back together after treatment, because it is. your body and your mind and your sense of self really do take a battering.

[00:03:28] Rosamund Dean: And yeah. And how are you feeling now? I feel 

[00:03:31] Roz Chandler: that actually. I feel like I'm going to do 18 month treatment plan, the same as you. And I'll do the radiotherapy and I've got the Herceptin immunology at the same time now, but I've got 13 more of those to come. And then I finished on something like I think that's mentally.

[00:03:49] Roz Chandler: Mentally, I think you can only cope with a bit at a time. I don't think you should jump ahead. I don't think you should say, Oh, what drugs are they going to give me in July next year? I think, which is why I knew nothing about radiotherapy, which is why I then picked the book up and went back to it.

[00:04:01] Roz Chandler: Because I think if you start to do it all at once, It's like overwhelming. And I do think that now that I, and people say to me, How are you doing, Ros? And I said, All I want is my life back and my body back. Thank you. And I will, when I get my life and my body back that'll be really interesting. I think in your book where you say, When you think it's all over and you ring the bell and you walk out, You think that's it.

[00:04:25] Roz Chandler: I don't think it is. And that was the first time I realised that it definitely wasn't going to be because you come back with this what if it comes back? What am I going to do about that? And my bones ache and my head hurts. And I think there is a period of readjustment in life, generally. 

[00:04:38] Rosamund Dean: There certainly is.

[00:04:39] Rosamund Dean: There absolutely is. And I think it's, there's so much fear and anxiety and it it comes just at the time when everyone's expecting you to feel really happy. Yeah, you should be feeling really happy and relieved. It's over, you're through it. And, in some ways, and on some days you do feel like that, but then there are also some days where you just feel crippled by anxiety and fear of recurrence.

[00:05:02] Rosamund Dean: And for me as well, I had early menopause because I was 40 when I was diagnosed and overnight like after the first chemo, basically my period stopped. Yeah, completely like that. And then all the menopause symptoms hit you like a ton of bricks all at once. Yeah, I was dealing with that because it's so interesting because lots of those symptoms are similar to side effects of cancer treatment because it's like brain fog fatigue, anxiety, loss of libido, all those things I thought would get better when treatment finished weren't getting better and I was like, what the hell is going on here?

[00:05:38] Rosamund Dean: And yeah, it turned out that was why it was the crash menopause. 

[00:05:42] Roz Chandler: Which is, yeah, the double whammy then in that case. Yeah. Yeah. No. God, it's bad enough as it is, to be honest. You don't and the people say to me, How was the chemo? And all my answer to that is always, it's doable. And it is doable, and you go and have it, and you come out, you walk out there, don't you?

[00:06:00] Roz Chandler: Drive home, and you're perfectly fine for a few hours. Yeah. And you're definitely not. Yeah. I think But you know that it's in there now and there's nothing you can do about it and you just need to get through these seven days and then you'll come out the other side. And I think you mentally work your way through.

[00:06:14] Roz Chandler: I work my way through every cycle going, that's one less, that's one less. 

[00:06:17] Rosamund Dean: Yes. 

[00:06:18] Roz Chandler: That's one less than I need to have. I had COVID in the middle of mine, which didn't help. Oh gosh. Because obviously you've got low blood cell count, haven't you? Yeah. And I didn't really go anywhere, so I've no idea where, and I ended up in hospital for five days.

[00:06:28] Roz Chandler: So that was, you know when people say what were your low points? That was pretty low. Sitting on the hospital bed thinking, what am I doing? 

[00:06:34] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. 

[00:06:34] Roz Chandler: I've had chemo, I've lost all my hair, I'm sitting here with COVID. I really don't want to be here. It was probably the lowest of the low, and then from there onwards, it couldn't be any worse, I don't think.

[00:06:45] Roz Chandler: But it is a roller coaster, that's for sure. 

[00:06:48] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, 

[00:06:48] Roz Chandler: absolutely. Did you have surgery before? I had surgery to take the lump out, yes. Yeah, good. But I was one of the lucky ones because they caught it really early and only because I went for another lump, not for this one.

[00:07:02] Roz Chandler: That's so interesting. And they went, oh, it's not that one over there. This one we're more interested in. And I said, what one? And they said, you'd never have felt it. You would never have found it. And we've just found it now. And I went, and it was really aggressive for that point. It was grade three.

[00:07:15] Roz Chandler: And they said, if you hadn't found it. We'd be having a different conversation and I thought, Oh my God. So in one way I've got this little angel up there going, what sent you there? I have no idea. Yeah. But yeah, so it's, if there's any doubt in anybody's mind, a little lump, a little ripple, anything, then you need to go.

[00:07:34] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, it's always worth getting it checked out. Never, ever feel that you're wasting the doctor's time. It's, 

[00:07:40] Roz Chandler: no, 

[00:07:40] Rosamund Dean: that's what they're there for. Part of the doctor's job is reassurance. 90 percent of the breast lumps I think they're going to start a 

[00:07:45] Roz Chandler: self referral, aren't they?

[00:07:46] Roz Chandler: They're going to start a self referral scheme, I heard. Which is where you didn't have to go to a GP anymore, you go straight to the breast clinic. Which cuts out the GP, because actually, he can't do anything. He just goes, yes, it's a lump, off you go. It wastes time, really. 

[00:07:58] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, and that's 

[00:07:59] Roz Chandler: gonna, I think that's gonna be trialled.

[00:08:00] Roz Chandler: That's a much better idea. 

[00:08:02] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, absolutely. That's so much better. If there was a world in which you could just have a walk in clinic where you could just go and get a lump check, that would be incredible. 

[00:08:10] Roz Chandler: Maybe in our lifetime that will happen. 

[00:08:12] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, 

[00:08:13] Roz Chandler: I hope so. That would be amazing. 

[00:08:14] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, I mean 

[00:08:15] Roz Chandler: We both know the incidence of cancer generally, and the incidence of breast cancer is increasing, and we now know that it's cancer in people's lives is going to be one in two.

[00:08:24] Roz Chandler: So if I look, if you look around your family, that's a pretty high incident rate. 

[00:08:28] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, 

[00:08:29] Roz Chandler: exactly. And then you question, why is that? I've, I'm, I read a lot and some of it I probably shouldn't have read, which is why I'd say just stick to your book and stick to some resources that you should look at and know what they are.

[00:08:41] Roz Chandler: Because to be honest, you can go down Dr. Google and it's quite frightening. Yeah. And you can read so much on nutrition and wellness and what you should eat and what you shouldn't eat. That's another rabbit hole. And there's a lot of people trying to make a lot of money out of it. Exactly. So it's be very careful.

[00:08:57] Roz Chandler: Yes, absolutely. That's good advice. But it does change you. It does change you. I know you've done very much into wellness and nutrition. I've read that in your book too. Yes. I obviously did my research and like you, I'm an 80 20 girl. 20 percent of the time it's not going to be perfect.

[00:09:11] Roz Chandler: I did go down those rabbit holes. I was going to, all those things that you were meant to eat and not do. That's good. And I was going to become vegan at one point, a vegetarian I'm not but I do eat more plants, or plant foods, so there's definitely some changes. What would be your recommendations to people on nutrition?

[00:09:27] Rosamund Dean: I would say my best advice is just to keep it really simple. Yeah. The best advice is really what we already know, which is Eat more veg. Your grandmother could have told you that. It's, everyone knows that's important for us. Now we have the nutritional science to show exactly why it's so important.

[00:09:46] Rosamund Dean: You need all these different types of fiber and different polyphenols and phytonutrients and all these now we have all the science, but underlying advice is the same, which is eat more veg. And I think that you're right. There's so much advice out there that is this one thing will give you cancer or this one thing will prevent cancer.

[00:10:07] Rosamund Dean: And it's, I think, especially if there's an expensive supplement tied to it. Just ignore it. Yes. But in general, if something seems too good to be true, then it is, and there, there is no one thing that will cause or prevent cancer. No. It's really about a wider dietary pattern of generally eating more veg is the key thing.

[00:10:31] Rosamund Dean: Eating more 

[00:10:31] Roz Chandler: veg. Eating more veg lowering your processed food. Yeah. And reducing sugar. There you go, would be my three pieces, and that's it. 

[00:10:39] Rosamund Dean: Exactly. Exactly. And I would say, people say, Oh sugar is evil. Sugar feeds cancer. So I'm going to stop having fruit. I'll never have a banana again.

[00:10:47] Rosamund Dean: And I just think we need to have a little bit of common sense about this. And a piece of fruit is filled with fiber and vitamins and things that are really good for you. And they clothe the sugar. So it doesn't have the same impact as sugar. I don't know, a packet of icing sugar or something clearly would have on your body.

[00:11:04] Rosamund Dean: So it's, it's the obviously bad sugar, the kind of ultra processed, high amounts of added sugar that you need to watch out for. Naturally occurring sugars in fruits and vegetables are absolutely fine. And yeah, in terms of animal products, I know people talk a lot about dairy. Some people are very fearful about the connection between dairy and cancer, but there is.

[00:11:27] Rosamund Dean: No, the latest nutritional science research shows that there is no connection between eating dairy and having cancer. And in fact, if you're having fermented dairy, like kefir, that can reduce your risk of cancer. So that's fine. And I think when it comes to meat, it's all about quality. So I think if you're having some nice, organic grass fed meat, then.

[00:11:53] Rosamund Dean: That's absolutely fine. It's not going to do you any harm at all. If you're having like some ultra processed bacon and sausages every day then that probably will. So I think there is definitely an element of common sense to it and I think people want there to be a magic solution where they can cut out all meat and then never get cancer.

[00:12:11] Rosamund Dean: But there are no absolutes. in this game at all. There are, you can only talk about risk reduction or risk increasing. I've lost the word for that. Yeah. But yeah, certain things may increase your risk of getting cancer, like a diet of lots of ultra processed high sugar foods, a sedentary lifestyle, high stress, lots of other illness that can cause like inflammation in the body, things like that all can increase your risk but they're not necessarily going to cause cancer because it is such a big picture with so many different factors.

[00:12:46] Rosamund Dean: And good nutrition, exercise, drinking less alcohol. We don't need to 

[00:12:50] Roz Chandler: be running a marathon, but we do need to be doing some exercise. I noticed that in another article, you're not a runner and neither am I. I am a cyclist, but I'm not a runner. Yeah. But yeah, exercise wise, there is, there was some things, when you come out of chemo, the thought of exercise is just like no chance.

[00:13:05] Roz Chandler: Yeah. You just want to be able to live normally. But I think, yeah, there comes a time and it's coming around that you need to get your body back again. So it's yeah, exercise and wellness and Pilates and yoga and stretching and building your bone density are all things that you need to do.

[00:13:22] Rosamund Dean: Exactly. And exercise. Exercise is such an interesting one because before my cancer diagnosis, I was very lazy. I had a very sedentary job anyway. I was a journalist, so I sat at a laptop all day. And I did, I hated the idea of going to the gym. I just, I hated it. I had grown up in a world that equated exercise with weight loss.

[00:13:45] Rosamund Dean: And I thought, if your goal in life isn't to lose weight, then why would you bother exercising? Like I was just an inherently lazy person. I'm not one of those people that loves to exercise and really wants to move their body all the time. It's just not me. And I think it's really important to get that message out there because so many of.

[00:14:03] Rosamund Dean: The kind of exercise and fitness influencers on Instagram and the people that you see in the media are so this is the kind of exercise you should do and this is how many reps and this is, and their advice is all around that. And I'm like, yeah, but how do you like, get off the sofa and actually make yourself do it?

[00:14:19] Rosamund Dean: And they're like you just do it. Yeah, they just don't understand a world in which you wouldn't want to do it. So I think, I like to speak for the people who are not naturally sporty or naturally athletic, and I think the key, because it is so important, it's so important, and this is what I've discovered since looking at the research, there are so many studies on this, and doing exercise after Successful treatment for breast cancer reduces your risk of recurrence by anywhere between 30 and 60 percent, depending on which study you look at.

[00:14:51] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, it's basically halving your risk. Yeah, it's incredible. So it's so important. So I think the key It's to find something that you enjoy. Don't get caught up on oh I should be doing this type of exercise or that type of exercise. Just find something that you actually enjoy. And and also I think another helpful thing is incidental exercise, just avoiding being too sedentary.

[00:15:14] Rosamund Dean: Embracing doing like cleaning the house or running up and down stairs or just, Going for a long walk with the kids at the weekend. It doesn't need to be like sweating out in the gym, if that is just a really depressing idea to you, which I think it is to a lot of people. It is to me.

[00:15:33] Rosamund Dean: Then yeah, it's just about finding something that fits into your life and ideally also something that you enjoy. 

[00:15:41] Roz Chandler: But those statistics are something that we really need to take into consideration and we really need to move more. It's crazy. And just get out more. And it's 

[00:15:50] Rosamund Dean: crazy because the doctors don't tell you this.

[00:15:52] Rosamund Dean: So I remember when I started chemo, I said to my oncologist, is there anything that I should be doing, lifestyle wise to support myself through this? And expecting her to go, Oh, give up dairy. And she didn't. She just said no, nothing like that. Just just rest. Rest is the most important thing.

[00:16:10] Rosamund Dean: And in a way she was right. Like rest is really important. But also if she'd said. Just try and get out once a day for a walk, just to walk around the block. Even if you really don't feel up for it, it's so important for your body to keep moving, otherwise it can atrophy. You can't 

[00:16:26] Roz Chandler: move for chemo.

[00:16:26] Roz Chandler: You can't move for chemo 

[00:16:27] Rosamund Dean: if you don't move. Because 

[00:16:29] Roz Chandler: I grew up on a flower farm and I made it my mission, even some days it was really difficult, to get up and just walk around it, go around and look at all the plot, find out what's growing, not growing in that time that's really horrible after chemo. Yeah.

[00:16:41] Roz Chandler: But actually I found It better if you just did it. You would move the chemo quicker. That's true, isn't it? You're going to digest it and move it quicker. 

[00:16:48] Rosamund Dean: It does make you feel better as well. It makes you, it's good for you long term, but it also makes you feel better on that day as well. Yeah. Lots of incentives.

[00:16:57] Rosamund Dean: 100 percent. 

[00:16:59] Roz Chandler: If you could give three pieces of advice to those discovering for the first time, and there will be people today because the rates are so high and people have reached out to me on my Instagram, which is lovely. And I've responded, discovering that they've had breast cancer today. What would you say to them?

[00:17:11] Roz Chandler: What would be your pieces of advice? 

[00:17:14] Rosamund Dean: I think the first thing would be that you have a lot more agency than you think you do. I definitely went into it as a very kind of passive cancer patient. And I was like, I'll just be told what to do. And I'll just, and obviously I would not have. Not Elle Macpherson, I wouldn't have refused my chemo or anything.

[00:17:33] Rosamund Dean: I'd definitely do everything the doctor said in terms of that. But there's so much stuff around that you get given steroids and then you get given sleeping pills because the steroids keep you awake at night and you get given anti sickness pills and then you get given kind of laxatives because the anti sickness pills cause constipation and it's just like drugs upon drugs.

[00:17:51] Rosamund Dean: And you can. Just through some really simple lifestyle things you can Do some, you can cut down on those drugs. You don't have to take all of the drugs that you're given. No. In terms of those things, in terms of managing the side effects, you do have to take your chemo. I should say that again.

[00:18:06] Rosamund Dean: Yes, 100%. If you'd be told you need chemo, do the chemo. But yeah, it's all of the things around that and I, I didn't realize that you could. The steroids are given because of anti sickness, but also in part to avoid an allergic reaction. And after the first cycle of chemo, the risk of that goes down.

[00:18:23] Rosamund Dean: So you don't necessarily have to keep taking the same amount of steroids if you're finding them quite hard. I find the steroids really hard because it was just like that kind of manic energy they give you. And I just wasn't sleeping and I found I was like gaining loads of weight and I found the steroids really hard work.

[00:18:40] Rosamund Dean: And I, Without telling my oncologist, I just started taking like a bit less each week and I would, I basically cut it down until I wasn't taking any. And now I look back and I'm like, what was I thinking? Why didn't I just tell her that I was struggling with the steroids and I'm sure she would have helped me cut back on them.

[00:18:58] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. Yeah. But for some reason, every drug has a side effect. Every 

[00:19:02] Roz Chandler: single drug has a side effect, and you need to be aware of those. When I was taking, I had lots of joint pain, which was weird, it was just one of my things. And so they would give me paracetamol is evil. But in order to be able to take naproxen, you had to take because it caused acid reflux, you had to take meprazole.

[00:19:22] Roz Chandler: Oh my goodness, this is getting worse. I've now got to take that. It's crazy, so I think you really need to look at those drugs. I think the anti sickness drugs, if you're feeling anti sick, I Great. And you will need them. And the chemo, definitely. Yeah. I was a bit like you. Whatever they tell me to do, I'm going to do.

[00:19:39] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. 

[00:19:39] Roz Chandler: But I had, you know that drug that you inject yourself in the stomach with to create the bone marrow to get more white blood cells? Oh, yes. That caused really big problems for me. It can fetch my joints. They just attack the joints. And then I said, I'm not going to take those anymore. And they said no, you don't need to.

[00:19:54] Roz Chandler: Wow. Because I know 

[00:19:56] Rosamund Dean: I had, because I kept obediently doing those bloody injections and I'm such a needle fobe. I find them incredibly stressful to do and I kept doing it. And actually you are right. That is one thing that there are so many ways that you can boost your white blood cell count through.

[00:20:10] Rosamund Dean: Lifestyle through, getting more sleep, doing a bit of exercise, eating really healthily, all of that stuff. It just sounds so basic because obviously everybody knows. I didn't tame them. I don't like to tell you that now. I did not 

[00:20:21] Roz Chandler: inject myself.

[00:20:23] Rosamund Dean: I got my whole thing to do. I don't 

[00:20:24] Roz Chandler: think you need to. I think you need to listen to the moment, obviously, because I know what they're doing and follow the journey, but you don't have to accept everything. 

[00:20:30] Rosamund Dean: Yes. 

[00:20:30] Roz Chandler: My last I'm allergic to lots of chemo, where the side effects of the ones before were so awful.

[00:20:36] Roz Chandler: I'm just not very good with drugs per se. I don't think I could ever take drugs because they don't like my body. I'm allergic to loads of drugs. And they decided that they would reduce my chemo by 20 percent for the last two cycles. Because I just couldn't do anything. And that made a massive impact. So you've also got to have that conversation around the fact of these are all of my side effects.

[00:20:56] Roz Chandler: I used to write them all down. Yeah. And then come to a decision together, but it's don't be afraid to do that. 

[00:21:02] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, exactly. And that would be my other bit of advice to write things down because you have your regular appointments with the oncologist and you go in there and they say, so how are you? How's everything going? And if you haven't Written it down, like your mind will just go completely blank. So it's really important to write these things down and just make it a conversation. So it's not just a case of them telling you what to do and you doing it. Obviously they're the experts, so you definitely listen to them, but you can have a conversation about those things.

[00:21:34] Rosamund Dean: About certain drugs and certain side effects and can be managed in different ways. And you always have to listen to your body. And I would say my third piece of advice is actually something that I saw in your Instagram that was about, it was something like delegation. is not a weakness, it's a strength.

[00:21:53] Rosamund Dean: No. And I just think accepting help is so important during this time because, you really, when you're going through cancer treatment, you really have to lean into being unwell, you have to rest. It's I think, The people around you, your friends and family will want to help.

[00:22:12] Rosamund Dean: They will feel helpless and like they can't do anything. And you're going through this awful thing. They really want to help you. So let them, let them fuss around you and make dinner or anything you need, don't feel bad about it. Like they want to 

[00:22:26] Roz Chandler: do it and you need it. Because interestingly, I work for myself, obviously as a flower farmer and through the whole of this period, I will have had the most successful business year ever, and you think, how is that possible going through chemo?

[00:22:39] Roz Chandler: If you think from January to now, these months have been the most profitable. And the reason is 'cause I learned the really good art of delegation. Wow. And I will continue to do that now. And I learn the art of trusting and I learn the art of just get on with it. And actually I've proved it. Yeah. So you don't have to be in control of everything 

[00:22:55] Rosamund Dean: Exactly.

[00:22:56] Rosamund Dean: And let 

[00:22:56] Roz Chandler: other people do it. It's brilliant. 

[00:22:58] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. It's so important, I think. And so many women in particular struggle with that because they're so used to doing everything and at work and at home and with kids and work. So women are often spinning lots of plates. And I feel like when It's really hard to just stop.

[00:23:15] Rosamund Dean: But this is the time to do that for sure. 100%. 

[00:23:19] Roz Chandler: So I know you've recently highlighted HRT and we've talked about that and going into the menopause and breast cancer. Any tips with that on HRT? Cause I'm obviously older than you and I'd already gone through the menopause, so I feel very grateful for that.

[00:23:30] Rosamund Dean: The thing about HRT and menopause is that everybody is different and every case is different. is different. So it is, it's hard to give tips. I would say for the vast majority of people who've had breast cancer, I think HRT is not an option, because if you have hormone therapy if you're on a drug like tamoxifen that works by blocking estrogen, so you obviously can't, have HRT, which would be doing the opposite to that.

[00:23:57] Rosamund Dean: No, because I think, yeah. So in the case of oestrogen driven breast cancers, then it's very clear that HRT is not an option. With the 20 percent of breast cancers that are not oestrogen driven, normally they would say it's not an option because. It may increase your risk of recurrence because breast cancer cells can mutate.

[00:24:18] Rosamund Dean: So it might start out as a triple negative cell and then become an estrogen driven one. So they still, the risk is definitely much smaller, but there's still a risk, so they prefer not to have that risk. In some cases I think if you're, so in my case, for instance, this is honestly one of the most difficult parts of the whole going through treatment is when doctors disagree with each other.

[00:24:47] Rosamund Dean: And I would be told one thing by one doctor and then another thing by another doctor, and they would be completely opposite things. And they were both doctors that I, trust and within the NHS, who are both brilliant doctors, and I just wouldn't know where to turn. So what happened with me is that one doctor said, if you've had triple negative breast cancer, which I did, which is, has nothing to do with hormones, if You are two years past treatment, which is it's in that initial two years after treatment that your risk of recurrence is the highest.

[00:25:20] Rosamund Dean: So it drops down after that. If you're two years post treatment and if you're still under 45, then the benefits of HRT at that point, the benefits would outweigh the risks. The benefits in terms of like long term. Bone, brain, heart, health, that kind of thing. So this doctor said to me, in your case, I think you should have HRT only a low dose and only until you're 51, which is the average age of menopause for women in the UK.

[00:25:50] Rosamund Dean: So then we're not giving you any extra oestrogen. It's only the oestrogen that you would have had, had chemo not stopped you. periods at age 40. Yeah. In this case, HRT was, and I went back to my oncologist, and after lots of back and forth, she was like, Oh, you know what? That does make sense, actually.

[00:26:09] Rosamund Dean: It's quite funny, because these doctors are such experts, but they're so their expertise is in quite a narrow field a lot of the time. And she actually said, oh, I was only thinking about cancer, but I suppose in terms of all those other things, the benefits would outweigh the risk. Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:27] Rosamund Dean: Exactly. So yeah, in my particular case, HRT was ultimately recommended. But I don't want to make any blanket recommendations about that because I know every single case is so different and every single person's kind of appetite for risk is different. And even though, the risk, The statistics would show that my risk is not increased by that much from being on HRT.

[00:26:56] Rosamund Dean: There might be some women who would say, I don't want my risk to increase by anything at all. I never want to get cancer again. I don't want to risk HRT, even if it does mean that I have to really look after my bones and my heart. 

[00:27:09] Roz Chandler: Yeah. 

[00:27:10] Rosamund Dean: If they were younger, if they were pre menopausal when they were diagnosed.

[00:27:14] Rosamund Dean: So yeah, it's just such a complicated issue. I feel like Need 

[00:27:19] Roz Chandler: more research, I think, probably. 

[00:27:21] Rosamund Dean: Yes as with many aspects of women's health, it is very under researched. 

[00:27:26] Roz Chandler: Yeah, 

[00:27:27] Rosamund Dean: unfortunately, 

[00:27:28] Roz Chandler: I love this from you. I won't deprive myself of things I love or cut out, or I won't cut out entire food groups.

[00:27:35] Roz Chandler: So this is very much about rejecting perfection in favor of living well in a fun way. I'm with you. I'm sorry. I'm with you. Oh, thank you. And Red wine has pheno, phenols in it. I'll have it . Thank, because I haven't really drunk very much since February. You tend to obviously you're not drinking in chemo, are you?

[00:27:49] Roz Chandler: Because you're not putting another poison in your body. But when you come out of chemo, which I'm now a week free of chemo. The desire to have a glass of red wine is definitely there.

[00:27:59] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. And I think I certainly felt, because Especially when I was dealing with all those menopausal symptoms. And this was at the point when my oncologist had told me that I could not have HRT.

[00:28:10] Rosamund Dean: And I was like, how can I make myself feel better? And I realized it was by being healthier, and I just hated the idea of being boring. So I've really been looking for ways to you know, for life to still be fun, even when you don't drink much anymore, and you're not like, you're eating very healthily.

[00:28:31] Rosamund Dean: It can still be fun. And healthy food can be delicious and interesting and incredible. And exercise. Can be fun, I'm learning. Yeah. It's, It's the 80 20 rule again. Yeah, it's the 80 20 rule and it's also a mindset shift. You have to stop thinking of living healthily as being kind of drudgery.

[00:28:52] Rosamund Dean: It doesn't have to be at all. It is the way that you think about it. Yeah. 

[00:28:58] Roz Chandler: Yeah. I've definitely added more vegetables to my diet. I'm a bit of a cheat. I have plant hood to deliver three meals a week because that makes me eat more veg. And I tend to do that for my lunch or something like that.

[00:29:08] Roz Chandler: So you eat lots more veg. I'll have my organic vegetables as my treat to arrive once a week. So I'm definitely eating more veg and I'm definitely healthier for sure. And less processed meat in any way. And less processed food, to be honest, in any way. And that's all fine. No, I don't mind that. I don't mind that.

[00:29:25] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, and I think the veg box is brilliant. We get a veg box now as well. And the great thing about it is it makes you be creative with food because you're like, how am I going to cook this turnip? Or whatever it is. You have to, you have to Come up with a creative way to cook something that you wouldn't necessarily have chosen from the supermarket.

[00:29:46] Rosamund Dean: Because, we're all guilty of putting the same things on our shopping order everywhere. Yeah, it's too easy to do. We're all busy. We have the 

[00:29:52] Roz Chandler: same food. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:29:55] Rosamund Dean: Exactly. So it's really good for making you try things, trying new things, because it is really important to eat that. A variety of vegetables.

[00:30:04] Rosamund Dean: And also you'll know this as a flower farmer, a lot of people don't work in a world where they see the changing seasons in such a visceral way. And we're lots of us who kind of work in offices with our heating in the winter and our air con in the summer. We're we don't notice the change in seasons as much.

[00:30:23] Rosamund Dean: And I think it's so important to get back in touch with that because human beings are designed to eat certain things at certain times of year. And also I think, be more active in the summer and be a, get more sleep in the winter and just things like that, that I feel like we've lost touch with because now, we can have bright light 24 hours a day and we can work out in the gym whenever we want.

[00:30:47] Rosamund Dean: And I think. Yeah, we need to pay a bit more attention to what the natural world is doing. 

[00:30:52] Roz Chandler: Yeah. I bought a book quite recently, somebody suggested to me, called 365 Soups, one for every day of the year, and it's done seasonal. And I bought it I bought it through Amazon, but it was like a second hand book, and it arrived, I think it was 3.

[00:31:06] Roz Chandler: 50 or something. It's an amazing book. I didn't know that you could have turnip and something soup, and you could, so you could go every day and have a different soup according to the time of the year. 

[00:31:15] Rosamund Dean: Amazing. Oh, I'm gonna get this book, I think. I love those books that are done seasonally Anna Jones has got a really good one, hasn't she?

[00:31:23] Rosamund Dean: I can't remember what it's called, but it's split into the four seasons. Is it called A Cook's, A Modern Cook's Year? I haven't got that one, but it's yeah, it's amazing. 

[00:31:32] Roz Chandler: Yeah, exactly. But you have a sub stack account as well. Which I've subscribed to. I'm a super fan. Of course.

[00:31:41] Roz Chandler: What was behind it? What made you do it? I love it. Cause it's easy to read and I can be in the bath and I can just pick a subject on, I was drawn to, of course, mindful drinking. And it was my go to in the bath for sure. So I can just pick something and read it. I can just. In and out, have a quick read.

[00:31:56] Roz Chandler: What made you do it? Why the sub stack account? 

[00:31:59] Rosamund Dean: It was really because I had, so before my breast cancer diagnosis I ate pretty healthily. I probably did, when I was busy, I probably did rely on ultra processed convenience foods. I didn't do any exercise. I drank loads of alcohol. I was, I probably, I was not the healthiest, basically.

[00:32:19] Rosamund Dean: And I hated the idea of losing who I was. as a person, if I was going to live more healthily to cope with symptoms of early menopause and also reduce my risk of breast cancer recurrence. Both of those things very important to me. Like I was very incentivized to do them, but I really struggled with the idea of being like a healthy person.

[00:32:39] Rosamund Dean: It just felt really boring to me. So the idea of well is finding ways to make being healthy fun, basically. So yeah, so it's about, the best alcohol free drinks that you can actually have fun with rather than just, deprive yourself of something that you like, or, how to find exercise that you really enjoy.

[00:33:02] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. Because that's, I think so many of us You get taught when you're young, you get put in a box of what kind of person you are. And I know ever since school, I was like, Oh, she's not sporty. She just likes to read or whatever. And I sealed that in as my identity. And And now I'm like, wait, hang on, I can be the kind of person that like, does exercise and actually really enjoys it and has fun with it and eats well and goes out for a night out with my friends and doesn't drink and it's, I can be that person now, but it is quite a big identity shift.

[00:33:34] Rosamund Dean: Yes, it guess there's quite a lot of crossover between the book and the book. reconstruction and the substack but really the substack is just about being healthy in a fun way so it's not really to do with breast cancer it's for anyone regardless. Yeah it's I thought

[00:33:50] Roz Chandler: it was great I think it's really well done and like you say it's it's quite funny in some respects and yeah it's about just being healthy we're back to that again so exactly and I think breast cancer is almost like a line in the sand isn't it basically woken you up Yeah.

[00:34:04] Roz Chandler: And said, okay you might've thought you were healthy and you might've thought you were mindful drinking, and you might've thought you ate all the right things, but actually, did you? Did you? Yeah. Exactly. So he's Exactly. So if you were on a desert island, what books would you take for them? Or indeed any items?

[00:34:19] Roz Chandler: What would you take with you on a desert island? We're going to put you on desert island. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Yeah. That's quiet and away from everything. What would be nice, as long as it's 

[00:34:26] Rosamund Dean: warm. I am a sucker for self help books and I love time management ones. I always, it's like the most ironic form of procrastination to read a time management book.

[00:34:39] Rosamund Dean: I always think, oh I'm going to do these strategies and manage my time and be like an amazingly productive person. But my favourite Time Management Book is 4, 000 Weeks by Oliver Birkman. Yes, 

[00:34:52] Roz Chandler: I've got 

[00:34:53] Rosamund Dean: it. 

[00:34:53] Roz Chandler: It's so good. I bet our bookshelves look quite similar. Yes, I think that's a wake up call, 4, 000 weeks.

[00:34:59] Roz Chandler: Yeah, 

[00:34:59] Rosamund Dean: the thing I love about it is it's not really a time management book, because it's not really full of tips about, time boxing or, prioritizing or anything like that. It's really just, you're going to die and you actually don't have that much time and You, if you want to do anything meaningful, you've just got to focus on that, and you've got to let other stuff go.

[00:35:21] Rosamund Dean: And that is the overarching idea of it. Obviously, he says it in a very eloquent way. 

[00:35:28] Roz Chandler: Yeah, but it is 

[00:35:29] Rosamund Dean: 4, 000 weeks. The gist of it is you're going to die. Yeah. 

[00:35:32] Roz Chandler: Yeah, exactly. And then you work out how old you are and how many weeks you've got left, which is always a classic thing to do when you read that book.

[00:35:38] Roz Chandler: Yeah, and that's even more frightening. And you think, just let it go and move on and get on with your life. Yeah, I'd, yeah, I'd go with that when I take that book. 

[00:35:48] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, it's a good one. And I'd probably take a pair of tweezers as well. I'm always finding random pairs.

[00:35:54] Rosamund Dean: You 

[00:35:54] Roz Chandler: should be so lucky, I haven't got any of those yet, but yeah, a pair of tweezers at some point. Yeah. But yeah. What's been your biggest challenge, do you think, along your journey? So 

[00:36:05] Rosamund Dean: I think the biggest, I would say the biggest challenge for me was putting myself back together again after cancer treatment.

[00:36:15] Rosamund Dean: Because that's why I wrote the book, because like when you're in it, when you're in the thick of it, you know what your next step is and you're so focused on dealing with it. Yeah, exactly. And getting through the immediate thing that's in front of you. And then when You know, if you're lucky enough to have successful treatment for a primary breast cancer tumour, then At some point you reach the end of that and then you're like, what now?

[00:36:42] Rosamund Dean: And it is, I've heard somebody comparing it to a soldier returning from war where they're, you've been, because you've been attacked by treatment and you emerged out of it and everyone's great. Back to normal. And and actually that's when you're like, what the hell is going on?

[00:36:56] Rosamund Dean: I don't even know who I am anymore or how to function in the world as a person. Yeah, I think that was definitely the biggest challenge. And it was a challenge because I didn't expect it. I just expected to be happy and normal at the end of. I've expected 

[00:37:11] Roz Chandler: it now because I've read your book.

[00:37:13] Roz Chandler: But if I hadn't read your book, I wouldn't be expecting, so I'm ready for it. And also I've expected my oncologist about it after I've read your book. And he said, we'll be there to pick you up, Ros, don't worry. He said it will be the hardest time. He said it's learning to drive a car. He says you're with your driving instructor and you do exactly what they tell you to do.

[00:37:28] Roz Chandler: And you learn from them and you take your test. And up to that point, if they say do this, do that, do this, do that, you do exactly what they tell you to do. You've passed your test, you've got your certificate, and now you're on your own. You sit back in the car and you think, what if I can't drive?

[00:37:41] Roz Chandler: What happens if I don't know which way to go? What if I'm not very good at it? Yeah. And I think you think all that because actually you have been handed back the chalice of going, here you go, it's your turn now. And when, and all the way along, all you've had is somebody telling you exactly what to do.

[00:37:54] Rosamund Dean: Yeah. So I think you're right. 

[00:37:55] Roz Chandler: And that, when I read your book, I was ready for that. I would have been like you. It's all over. Ring the bell. I'm out of here. And now I have read your book. I'm not expecting it to be dreadful. I'm expecting to just be ready for it and think actually this is just a different stage.

[00:38:09] Rosamund Dean: Oh, that's good. I hope it's not scary. I hope it's just more galvanizing. 

[00:38:14] Roz Chandler: No, really galvanizing. Three quick questions for you. What's your favourite hobby now, after all of this, and definitely not exercise? What could it be? It's 

[00:38:23] Rosamund Dean: not exercise. I was, I don't really have hobbies in the traditional sense, but I do love watching films.

[00:38:29] Rosamund Dean: I love watching, Yeah, I love going to the cinema. I love escaping into a film. That's one of my Another world. I would say that's a hobby. Yeah. 

[00:38:37] Roz Chandler: What was your childhood dream job? We went to the I don't you probably didn't have a careers officer in your day, but I definitely did. I used to go and I used to get his book A to Z and if you fitted in that book it was fine and if you didn't you weren't fine.

[00:38:49] Roz Chandler: Yeah. What was your dream car childhood job at that point? 

[00:38:52] Rosamund Dean: When I was a when I was a kid, I really wanted to be a TV newsreader. It's quite funny. I'd practice. And you're not far off 

[00:38:58] Roz Chandler: that. 

[00:38:59] Rosamund Dean: In 

[00:38:59] Roz Chandler: my bedroom, 

[00:39:00] Rosamund Dean: reading the news in my bedroom. Yeah, that was definitely my dream job. 

[00:39:06] Roz Chandler: How funny. And if you won the lottery today, what would you do?

[00:39:10] Rosamund Dean: I love my job, so I wouldn't stop working. But I would definitely pay off the mortgage, take the pressure off. And I would donate some money obviously to charities and then have a lovely holiday. That's 

[00:39:24] Roz Chandler: what I would do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you could do all of those and more, but yeah.

[00:39:29] Roz Chandler: Rosamund, we're going to put all your links in the show notes, your Substack account and your book, which I highly recommend, I've read it from cover to cover, and I use it, it's by my bath, I just want to, I just drop in and drop out. I'm so grateful that you came over today, because if we've just impacted one person, it would be amazing.

[00:39:45] Rosamund Dean: Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much for having me, Ros. I hope you're doing really well. You look like you're doing really well. 

[00:39:54] Roz Chandler: Yeah, I am. I really am. Like you say, you've got a way to go yet. 2nd of July I'll finish next year, but the worst is over, so much better. Yeah, lovely. And I will be having a glass of red wine tonight to celebrate the end of chemo.

[00:40:06] Roz Chandler: Yeah, a mindful one. Exactly, a mindful one. How did you guess? Thank you very much for coming. Thanks so much. Take care. Take care.