The Cut Flower Podcast

Reviving the British Cut Flower Industry with Roisin Taylor

• Roz Chandler • Season 1 • Episode 106

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Text Agony Aunt Roz with your Cutflower Questions.

Hi, I’m Roz, and welcome back to The Cutflower Podcast! Today, I’m thrilled to welcome back Roisin Taylor, who joins us for an insightful follow-up discussion. Earlier this year, we spoke about her Nuffield Farming Scholarship and her fascinating work on climate adaptation in the British cut flower industry. Now, we dive into her latest findings and her vision for the future of flower farming in the UK. Let’s get into it!

Episode Summary

In this compelling episode, Roisin Taylor shares her research into the resilience of the British cut flower industry amid the challenges of climate change. From storm-damaged gardens to scorching summers, her Nuffield Farming Scholarship journey revealed both vulnerabilities and opportunities in this growing sector.

We discuss her travels, including eye-opening visits to Kenyan and Dutch flower farms, lessons learned from their practices, and the troubling lack of transparency in flower production. Roisin unveils her plan to establish a British Cut Flower Association—a body to support growers, florists, and stakeholders, ensuring a sustainable and thriving industry.

Key Takeaways

  1. Climate Change Impacts: Understanding how flooding, drought, and extreme heat are challenging the resilience of British flower farms.
  2. The Need for Advocacy: Why the industry requires a dedicated national body to support growers, address labour issues, and drive sustainability.
  3. Labelling and Transparency: Advocating for clearer labelling to help consumers make informed choices about the flowers they buy.
  4. Collaboration Over Competition: How hubs, cooperatives, and community efforts could transform the supply chain and make British flowers more accessible.
  5. Lessons from Abroad: Insights from Kenya, the Netherlands, and beyond on building a sustainable and profitable flower industry.

Resource Links:


[00:00:00] Roz Chandler: So I'd love to welcome Roisin Taylor for the second time to podcast. Roisin joined us earlier in the year, I believe. Yes, earlier this year when we were talking about a Nuffield Farming Scholarship and how Roisin was looking into the future of flower farming, really, at that point. And it was a project called Revival and Survival.

[00:00:23] Roz Chandler: And is the British cut flower industry prepared for a two degrees temperature warming? No. Next. That was a very easy research project. So let me introduce you to Roshin. Roshin, tell us about where it all began and why you applied for Nutter scholarship and what that journey has been like. 

[00:00:41] Roisin Taylor: Thanks for having me again, Ros.

[00:00:42] Roisin Taylor: It's a treat. Yeah. So the, beginning of this all came from standing out in the growing space that my mum and I were running Verde Flower Co. on at the time which was a two acre wall garden. And we were hit by consistent back to back storms. They were destroying a lot of our growing infrastructure, like polytunnels.

[00:01:02] Roisin Taylor: It was ripping up any weed barrier we had and throwing it into the trees. And I was thinking, it's just, Something not right here about, about this business. Like, why are we able, you know, we're at small margins, we're a small business. We're just kind of working part time trying to get this going. And I was thinking, I'm actually not sure that this business will survive five, 10, 15, 20 years.

[00:01:24] Roisin Taylor: And I had just left my job to go full time at Verde Falco. And so that kind of consistent back to back problem of climate hitting us combined with problems around flooding. and drought, and then that extraordinary year of heat that we got of sort of average temperatures of around between 30 and 38 degrees in the summer, which was wild.

[00:01:45] Roisin Taylor: I just started thinking, you know, I have a background in climate change adaptation and climate change policy, and I thought, hang on, I'm actually don't think this, Business is resilient. But that also made me question whether the wider British gut flower sector was resilient as well, and what a truly resilient business would look like in terms of fighting the onset of climate change.

[00:02:05] Roisin Taylor: And it was a bit of a horrifying realization to kind of be aware that. Actually your business might not have legs. And so I started to ask myself, you know, in, in my previous work, we'd been looking at big policy stuff and legislative pieces, and also, you know, quite large scale nature based solutions like tree planting, et cetera.

[00:02:25] Roisin Taylor: And I thought what does that look like on a sort of smaller scale of maybe two acres or less? But also what does that look like for a commercial grower? And you are completely correct. I don't think my outcome for a lot of this research is actually that the British cut flower sector isn't prepared for a two degree warming world, but we can come to that and the whys of that in a moment.

[00:02:44] Roisin Taylor: And the Nuffield farming scholarship was an attempt to answer that question. So is it prepared? And if not, who do I speak to? Who are the people on the front line? Cause we're relatively lucky in the UK at the moment to not be really hardcore on the front line of climate change. What lessons can I learn from them and what can I bring back?

[00:03:02] Roisin Taylor: And that's the process that I've been going through over the last two years. And it's been a real rollercoaster, a very confronting one, and at times quite dark and quite bleak, but ultimately I feel extremely optimistic and quite excited about the future. So that's kind of where I am now, a couple of weeks after presenting.

[00:03:19] Roz Chandler: That's the end story. So it has a nice ending or maybe a nice. What does the future hold? Yeah. I mean, you've traveled enormously and you talk to loads of different types of people, and I think when I spoke to you last time, I was kind of really horrified. And I actually kept, stayed with me about the Kenyan flower farming and obviously, you know the, sustainability, which he doesn't have and the eco policies, which you definitely didn't have and how frightening that is actually, because on one hand you think, okay if the flowers come in from Kenya, of course they've traveled 4, 000 miles and they've been heavily treated and we kind of know that.

[00:03:51] Roz Chandler: So it's not very eco or sustainable or anything like that. But in the back of your mind, you also have that must be supporting local communities. And so maybe that doesn't make me feel so bad because it's one of the biggest industries in Kenya and lots of people will be employed and they'll all be fairly paid because there'll be fair trade and then you realize that's actually not the case.

[00:04:11] Roz Chandler: So it's 10 times worse than you ever imagined it would be. 

[00:04:15] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, it's a pretty complicated picture. And I've got to remember that I only visited Kenya, but this is a story that unfolds around the entirety of the world. And if you look kind of back at the history of how British cut flower growers begun their decline in the industry, it was, you know, You know, the Dutch incentivizing their growers through energy incentives, which created the kind of Dutch powerhouse we see today in the eighties.

[00:04:40] Roisin Taylor: And then the supermarket drive for cheaper products, which kind of incentivize the Brits and the Dutch to also look at the areas like Kenya or even over in Columbia and other places like that. So this is a story that is spread much more widely than just in Kenya, but I took Kenya as a bit of an opportunity to explore the environmental impact as well as those social impacts.

[00:05:03] Roisin Taylor: We know that for starters, it's really hard to get in with anyone, any kind of grower out there. And that was a real challenge for me. I think I said this last time, but I reached out to over 40 different flower farms and I only managed to get in on fluke with about three of them. And that is a similar story to the one that I've heard from lots and lots of different growers or florists who are interested in going out there.

[00:05:27] Roisin Taylor: But what I really wanted to do when I was out there was meet with water campaigners who had been for a very long time, essentially protesting the flower farms to understand what the kind of issues on the ground were not through a business commercial, how do we grow flowers lens, but actually the people who are engaging people who are growing the flowers.

[00:05:46] Roisin Taylor: What does it look like for them? We know that most growers, in terms of the people working on the flower farms, are not getting a Kenyan national living wage or anywhere close. In most cases, it appears to be like less than half of what a minimum wage, a national living wage is. That's quite shocking in and of itself, but that doesn't account for the levels of chemicals, or often the level of chemicals is pretty horrific, but we also have no transparency on that, and that provides a real problem.

[00:06:14] Roisin Taylor: For everyone else in the kind of supply chain really. So you know we've got a rise in people talking about the impacts of pesticides on their mental and physical health and having to take time off sick. This is disproportionately hitting women in Kenya as well, and there's quite a lot of really harrowing information out there on that.

[00:06:31] Roisin Taylor: But then at the same time, you have also got a shift to integrated pest management, which is about the reduction of chemicals in order to use biologicals like parasitic wasps or ladybirds or various other pieces. And that has been taken up by the Kenyan government because it's been quite an easy thing to push through.

[00:06:49] Roisin Taylor: And so you're seeing that in Not just the flower sector, but much more widely. So some of, a lot of those farms, in fact, every farm that I visited was already using integrated pest management, was already thinking about reduction of pesticides. But those things, the drivers for those changes tend to be retailers or labels.

[00:07:07] Roisin Taylor: So Fairtrade are pushing their growers to stop using glyphosate. And so that's why they're Looking at integrated pest management. So it's a very complicated picture. It's not, it's actually not very transparent at all. It's really hard to get any information on. And we've got to think that, yes, it's wonderful to be buying flowers and thinking that they're contributing to the local economy.

[00:07:30] Roisin Taylor: And. Kenya, the cut flower industry provides like 140, 150, 000 jobs a year for the communities around it. But at the same time, if those communities are being impacted through their mental and physical wellbeing and they're not being paid equitably, 

[00:07:45] Roz Chandler: what 

[00:07:45] Roisin Taylor: kind of, kind of, what kind of good is that doing? So it's a very complicated picture out there.

[00:07:50] Roisin Taylor: And because there's a lack of transparency, we can't seem to get our hands on it properly, really. 

[00:07:55] Roz Chandler: No. And also, like you said, it's driven by economics. Yeah. So it will be driven by retailers. who will drive, probably, hopefully, consumers who will drive the retailers, who will then, the retailers will drive their product.

[00:08:07] Roz Chandler: It will all be based on price, of course. That's why the imports have come from the beginning. And also, of course, we know that none of them are labelled. So you can go and pick your flowers up at the supermarket today. In December, and you have no idea where they've come from, what country of origin it has, how they've been treated and how they've arrived.

[00:08:26] Roz Chandler: So unlike food, you can't actually make a very good educated decision about what you want to buy and what you don't want to buy. You actually can't make that choice. And I think that's a massive thing. 

[00:08:38] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. Consumer choice is really, important and an absence of labeling. This is one of the outcomes of the research actually is kind of advocating for legislation that enables retailers to put country of origin onto their flowers.

[00:08:52] Roisin Taylor: Because I do think consumers need to be able to give them, to be given the tools to make a more informed decision. And if you kind of look at. Brand British, which I talk a lot about quite a lot in my reports as growing. That's quite interesting. This kind of idea that brand British blooms are on the increase and that people are looking towards that as a sort of trustworthy source.

[00:09:13] Roisin Taylor: But if you're not giving your consumer in the major retailers, the actual opportunity to make that choice, it seems really foolish. And what was really interesting was that you were, I was experiencing Lots of different elements of the retail market when I was visiting these flower farms. So I went to visit Wildfire Flowers, who were a flower farm on the banks of Lake Naivasha, which is an internationally recognized Ramsar biodiversity site, which is heavily polluted by, unfortunately, flower farms.

[00:09:42] Roisin Taylor: And Wildfire are sort of one of the top tier flower farms out there. And they are selling directly to supermarkets. So they don't even go through the auctions in, Holland. They go directly to supermarkets in Germany and in the UK as well. Places like Morrison's. And then on the other side of that, you have Tambuzi, which is run by Tim and Maggie Hobbs, who are real environmentalists at their core and are clearly working very hard in order to move their business away from the traditional ideas of what cut flower farming is.

[00:10:12] Roisin Taylor: So using things like vermicast and making their own compost and biochar and all of those pieces and reducing the amount of chemicals that they're putting on it and kind of, they are recognized as the B Corp standard. So they're the only B Corp flower farm in Kenya at the moment. And so there's lots of different, you know, when we're talking about labelling, labelling is actually really quite complex.

[00:10:33] Roisin Taylor: And I'd be really interested to see the data on what consumers are recognizing when they see a label. What does that mean to them? Is it as simple as, Oh, I'll buy brand British because I recognize that British and that stands for something kind of culturally to me, or do they believe that British is better?

[00:10:50] Roisin Taylor: Or do they look for a fair trade label or an organic label or a B Corp label? So I'm really interested in those pieces of this kind of logic puzzle. And I don't think there's enough data on that yet to really understand it, but it is an important part. What the consumer makes 

[00:11:03] Roz Chandler: a choice on. Yeah. And it's a very impulsive decision, flowers, aren't they, in a supermarket.

[00:11:07] Roz Chandler: And they're very impulsive and they're not a very considered purchase generally. So we aren't going to look at loads and loads of labels and make a considered purchase. And also, I'm not really sure they know how those flowers have been treated and therefore when they then put them in the vase what's happening to those pesticides that they've been heavily treated with.

[00:11:23] Roz Chandler: And I know there's been lots of studies in Belgium with florists handling flowers. Increased risks of cancer and that sort of thing. That's quite frightening. It's terrifying. Terrifying. And I think if only you, but because there's no labeling and even if we got to, it's almost like an ingredients list.

[00:11:38] Roz Chandler: If they had an ingredients list for the flour and it told you what it'd been treated with, and it also told you all the products have been given for it to make the 4, 000 mile journey into Amsterdam and then into the UK and still be alive three weeks later, You know, we know that they have to be heavily treated chemically for that to be able to exist.

[00:11:58] Roz Chandler: We may therefore decide not to buy it because it's been so heavily treated. Yeah. And it's not the beautiful flower we thought it was going to be. 

[00:12:05] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, and I think the lack of clarity on that is just really preventing us from making any steps forwards. And Also, I mean, one thing about the research was going, you know, when I went to visit the Netherlands, I definitely went into the Netherlands with a preconceived idea of what I was going to see.

[00:12:20] Roisin Taylor: And I think I expected the level of chemical usage to be much higher than it was. And actually what I was confronted with was the reality of the European Council making big strategic decisions for their growers. And the knock on effects on the Netherlands and the Dutch growers, i. e. using the farm to fork strategy, which seeks to reduce chemical pesticides and chemical usage by 50 percent in use and toxicity by 2030, that does have, I mean, from a legislative, perspective, it has a huge impact on the growers because they are having to change that all adopting integrated pest management, they're all mostly looking to the future and thinking, okay, what does a broadly chemical free flower look like?

[00:13:02] Roisin Taylor: And Royal Flora Holland are obviously thinking about that. And so the, labeling side of things is fascinating, but as is the policy and legislative piece of all of this. And it's worth knowing that the UK are really behind on chemicals legislation. 

[00:13:18] Roz Chandler: Just got to say, what's our legislation? You know, 

[00:13:20] Roisin Taylor: so since Brexit, we've really stalled.

[00:13:22] Roisin Taylor: So the, EU have gone ahead and banned hundreds of different chemicals since Brexit. And I, Think it's something around eight. I'd have to fact check that, but I think we have really not done our due diligence. We're not matching EU standards. And that's something that a lot of kind of chemicals focused NGOs are really pushing for at the moment.

[00:13:40] Roisin Taylor: So there is a real gap in legislation and thoughtful engagement with growers and all that sort of stuff around what chemicals we are or are not using. 

[00:13:50] Roz Chandler: Yeah, because that's interesting because even though it's British doesn't mean it's not chemically treated and that's also another thing, isn't it? Is that sustainable in eco?

[00:13:57] Roz Chandler: No. How would you know? How would you know? 

[00:14:00] Roisin Taylor: And also there's a huge lack of data in the UK at the moment. I mean, I've spoken with so many different people from all ends and all aspects of the British cut flower industry. And one of the things that keeps coming out time and time again is where is the data on what people are using, how much people are using, you know, actually how many businesses there are out there that are still operating and financially solvable, all those sorts of things.

[00:14:24] Roisin Taylor: And so if we don't have that data, we're maybe also lacking a Real awareness on how to collect that data, what kind of data we do need. And I do think that's another aspect of this that makes getting your head around the British cut flower industry quite complicated because it's very difficult for us to say British is better or British is not better from a chemicals perspective.

[00:14:45] Roisin Taylor: If we don't actually know what people are using and what standards there are and kind of what the future of legislation looks like. So that's quite another interesting piece of this puzzle. 

[00:14:55] Roz Chandler: Wow. So where are you now? You've finished, you've presented it, you had your findings. What were your overall findings?

[00:15:02] Roz Chandler: So if you took your top three or five of what you, the project gave you, what were your top five findings? 

[00:15:08] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, so I was very fortunate to fly to Belfast a couple of weeks ago and present at the annual conference with about, 20 other scholars, which was amazing. We all got 12 to 15 minutes to talk about what we were doing.

[00:15:23] Roisin Taylor: And you can watch that summary on YouTube at the moment. So I'll send that over to you so you can share that around. And it's a very brief summary, but it does capture a lot of those findings. So the first thing I found was that the British Kirkflower market is, it, industry as a whole is a very interesting, is a very interesting space.

[00:15:41] Roisin Taylor: On one side of things, we're really. Struggling. A lot of our big commercial growers are struggling and are going out of business. We know we're completely unsupported sort of financially and whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, that is a thing that we need to recognize. There is absolutely no advocacy voice for us out there.

[00:16:01] Roisin Taylor: And that was the big piece that kept haunting me wherever I went and with ever, whoever I spoke to. It was a. We can't actually move forward. I'm just thinking about my business because no one's really advocating for us in the kind of political policy, legislative spaces, and that's totally true, so there is no proper national sector body.

[00:16:21] Roisin Taylor: We think we talked about this last time. And so one of my major findings was. I think I need to do something about that. So we can talk about this in a minute, but I'm really interested in, and I'm going forward with, establishing a national sector body in what form that looks like I'm sort of in development at the moment, but I'm seeking funding for that, bringing together stakeholders and working out what our core objectives should be for campaigning and advocacy for the industry.

[00:16:44] Roisin Taylor: And then in terms of the cause my work was really focused around resilience and climate adaptation. There were lots of really interesting pieces. The first being something we've already covered, which is we're not prepared. And that's quite harrowing because what we're doing right now is really focusing on the month by month, year by year process of how do we financially survive?

[00:17:05] Roisin Taylor: That is why having a voice and having knowledge and exchange groups is so important because I really wholeheartedly believe we're not going to get to a place where we can learn how to adapt to make our businesses more resilient to climate change unless we're really, We've got really good, resilient businesses in of itself.

[00:17:22] Roisin Taylor: And so the kind of place that I ended up was a place that I wasn't really expecting to, because I thought I'd come out with a sort of long list of what can you do on your farm, no matter what size it is, to make your business more resilient. And actually what I came out with was, Oh my goodness, we need to take a massive step back and restructure what we think of as the British gut flower industry, which was really overwhelming at first.

[00:17:47] Roisin Taylor: But now. I feel quite excited about the prospect of that and what that looks like. And then there are sort of lots of other little pieces which you can read about in the report around it. As I say, the labelling piece, those knowledge and exchange groups, I really believe that. And a lot of the lessons I learned from people on the front line of climate change in New Zealand, in particular from the wine industry, was that, you know, Was that the only way you respond to emergency disasters.

[00:18:10] Roisin Taylor: And for us in the UK, that's probably going to look like extreme heat and drought or flooding. Flooding is our big one. As we know right now, Arable lost a billion pounds this year to flooding. So we are going to see the same knock on impacts on our businesses as well. So thinking about that, and then there's lots of other sort of smaller niche pieces as well, but for me, the big piece that came out of it was, okay, if we're going to really truly have a next step, we need an advocacy body that's focusing on that.

[00:18:38] Roisin Taylor: And that needs to look like bringing together people from across the sector to, so from your wholesalers, to your florists, to your big growers at the commercial end, and then your smaller growers who I would have considered myself. I also have to leave the growing behind. That's been a bit of a dagger to the heart.

[00:18:52] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I found that a challenge, but I actually think when I've looked to the organizations that I think are the most effective, efficient, and driven on, on the objectives that they've got, it's people who are dedicating their time to that and have the salaried time to do that. to deliver that. And so that's, what I'm seeking at the moment.

[00:19:13] Roisin Taylor: So yes, you can read about the sort of smaller pieces. The kind of broader themes are community advocacy in the face of climate disaster. For us, that particularly looks like flooding. The right plant in the right place. And there was some amazing lessons from Kenya. So you had the right plant, lots of testing and trialing of what the right plant would look like for us in the UK.

[00:19:32] Roisin Taylor: How do we develop that? I'm not talking about the genetics of it, I'm talking about which plants we specifically use, but also the right place. Thinking about the impacts of flooding or the impacts of drought. How can we make our soils more resilient? Are there certain spaces on our land that we just shouldn't be using and we should be planting willow in, for example, to make that more resilient?

[00:19:51] Roisin Taylor: And then the last piece was around data. Data was a really important factor because we don't have enough of it, as I've already kind of articulated. And then there was another piece around adapting to your environment, which I think for us in the UK really comes into the right plant and the right place and understanding your land quite uniquely.

[00:20:07] Roisin Taylor: But the headline. Aside from the voice was that actually farmers are in an amazing position to be able to deliver climate change adaptation. In fact, I think it's possibly the place where we should be delivering climate adaptation now, because you know your land. If you don't know your land, Get to know it, but you do know it really intimately.

[00:20:27] Roisin Taylor: You can read the weeds most likely, you know where's flooding and you can build up data around where might be flooding or where might be experiencing bad drought or where you might have bioremediating plants and really learn from that and build that into your business plan so that you're not just relying on a single monocrop that is probably not going to be as resilient as you'd like it to be.

[00:20:47] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, it was a bit of a long one there, but there was a lot of stuff that came out of the research for us. 

[00:20:51] Roz Chandler: It's yeah, isn't there just, but it's like the future of flower farm, because you're right, you know, a typical flower farmer working on two to five acres or something, not hugely, massively commercial volume.

[00:21:03] Roz Chandler: looks for next year. We plan next year. We've got a strategy for next year. We know what crops are going to grow. We know what problems we've had. We know our pest control. We've kind of been doing it year in, year out. We don't go past that. We don't think 10 years from now, five years from now, or even three years from now.

[00:21:19] Roz Chandler: We don't think what plants we should be planting, certainly in terms of perennials, that are going to be drought resistant. We don't think like that. And you're right, having a body, there never has been. You know, there's never been a voice at all. There's never really been any funding for the industry as a whole.

[00:21:34] Roz Chandler: And it's certainly growing. There are more flower farmers coming in all the time and it's how do they all work together and collaborate and you know, how do they supply the supply chain? Absolutely. That's a massive problem. You know, is it big hubs on the outside of cities that supply every florist in the city, unless you're going to get those flowers in the hands of a florist.

[00:21:56] Roz Chandler: You will never crack that supply chain. 

[00:21:59] Roisin Taylor: No, and some of the best conversations I've had with florists have been really quite confronting in many ways as a grower, or as a prior grower, not as a grower anymore. No, I know, it's quite horrid. It is quite horrid, but sorry, just to jump back onto that, because actually that is a really important part of the drive for the next bit, is that I am really sad that I'm not going to be because the growing piece has been Taken me to this place.

[00:22:25] Roisin Taylor: It's taken me to the research and I absolutely love it. And it's really good for my head. But I stepped back and thought, crikey, how will I have a business if the sector doesn't have legs? And so I was looking across the sector and thinking, and who. Who runs that, who delivers that? Most of the people who are sort of really incredible activists or you know, change makers in this space are growing their businesses.

[00:22:52] Roisin Taylor: And so how do you grow your business and have a successful business, which, let's be honest with flower farming is a seven day a week job. 100%. And then do the campaigning and the advocacy in a super targeted way, in a way that delivers for the growers. And I just realized that I couldn't do both. And so it does make me very sad.

[00:23:10] Roisin Taylor: But the intention of. Whatever comes next, and I think it's the British Cut Flower Association idea that has to get me to a place where in 10 years, I could rejoin the growing space and hopefully there's a more healthy, strictly thoughtful, and, sort of advocated for sector that is a bit more robust than it is right now, because I really want to see us.

[00:23:31] Roisin Taylor: Turning the dial on the, you know, 10, 11 percent of flowers bought and sold in the UK being British. I want to see us get to 15, 20, 25 

[00:23:41] Roz Chandler: percent. I've been saying it, a few percent would be lovely. But it hasn't moved at all. It hasn't. It's not really there and people talk about, you know, That actually 90 percent of the flowers are imported from overseas.

[00:23:52] Roz Chandler: And then some say it's 85 and some say it's 87. There's no stats, so nobody really knows what the figure is, 

[00:23:57] Roisin Taylor: but 

[00:23:58] Roz Chandler: it would be lovely to just move it a few percent to even get to a point where people are buying British flowers and making considered choice. And I've always thought that the whole industry, like you, and it's going to take a full time job.

[00:24:11] Roz Chandler: It's not because I started thinking about it about three years ago. And I actually registered the domain name. I have it, the British Cut Flower Association, actually, and I registered it on the pretext that I can't do something, this can't carry on. This is it's got to be driven by policy and by education.

[00:24:31] Roz Chandler: And it's got to, things have got to change at a higher level politically for us to ever even be able to sustain our businesses, but I recognize like you. that I'm a full time flower farmer. And in my full time flower, farmer role, there was no way I could have done a full time job running the British Cup Flower Association.

[00:24:48] Roz Chandler: So it still just sits there with a dream that hopefully someone like you, Rochenne, will pick it up and take it forward and go, okay, there's a definite need for this. 

[00:24:57] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. 

[00:24:58] Roz Chandler: But it is a full time job, that's why you can't do both. 

[00:25:00] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, it is. And so my next steps really are pursuing funding, and so I'm working on a funding application for the Frank Parkinson Agricultural Trust for a sort of part time role, essentially something that will just get me to a year.

[00:25:14] Roisin Taylor: So for the next year really needs to get hold of all of the key stakeholders, all the people who are contributing to the industry to get a sense across the board of not just thinking about climate change adaptation, because I've had that lens on for this research, but much more widely, do we need to talk about labor?

[00:25:33] Roisin Taylor: Do we need to talk about crop protection? Do we need to talk about this? What are your key concerns and what does Being part of an association like this mean to you, what do you need to see delivered in order to be part of that? It's a lot of relationship building to come. There's a huge amount of communication to be done.

[00:25:49] Roisin Taylor: Huge. Work across the different, cause there are amazing folk who are already out there thinking about the policy pieces, but it's bringing all those people together and also building trust so that whoever is engaged in this particular piece of work knows that I'm not out there for You know, the ego boost.

[00:26:06] Roisin Taylor: I'm out there because I really want to make sure that we have a better future for the industry as a whole. So it is a real uphill battle, but I'm exceptionally excited about bringing my work in the kind of advocacy and campaigning space to this in particular. And hopefully get somewhere with it with a, not quite full time, but aiming for full time position.

[00:26:27] Roz Chandler: Definitely. I mean, I brought together. Exactly that, the supply chain. I had big commercial growers. I, it was part of, and I also got involved with, the growers association who basically, yeah, who are based up in Lincolnshire, mainly do carrot associations and cucumber associations and loads of associations.

[00:26:45] Roz Chandler: And they didn't have a cut flower association. And I met the CEO there and we discussed. The way forward. And very quickly, even having a first few meetings and thinking about a board and moving forward, it's a full time job. It is a full time job and I'm a full time flower farmer and I knew I couldn't do it on a volunteer basis.

[00:27:03] Roz Chandler: And now I'm handing the baton over to you and you need to take it forward. I'm taking it. I'm taking it. 

[00:27:09] Roisin Taylor: I do think you make a, I think you make a really good point about expectations around that kind of thing for volunteering. I don't think that something at this scale and with the demand that We as growers or florists or wholesalers should put on an association, should be delivered by what, you know, one volunteer.

[00:27:28] Roisin Taylor: I don't think that makes sense. In the long run it's, actually completely unsustainable anyway. Yes. So I, am, I'm feeling, I met with the British Growers Association a couple of weeks ago. I've been chatting with flowers and farm. Got chatting to lots of the growers already. And I'm just thinking about how do we get into a space where next year we can bring together an amazing group of stakeholders, either in one big group or in sort of smaller groups, and really get to the sense of, okay, what do we need to achieve and how are we going to achieve it?

[00:27:55] Roisin Taylor: And then using all of the learnings from running a, you know, a National youth organization and campaigning organization, transferring that to this thing that I really, love. The only thing on top of that I've got to do is I've got a good number of weddings next year because I completely forgot that I'm also a florist.

[00:28:10] Roisin Taylor: So that was a bit stupid, but anyway, hopefully that'll keep me tied over in the kind of creative space as well. 

[00:28:16] Roz Chandler: Yeah. Oh, you forgot that bit, but nevermind. They're at the weekend. You can still do Monday to Friday. Don't worry. Exactly. That was my thinking. Exactly. But that is a seven day a week job, so we are talking about that.

[00:28:27] Roz Chandler: So you've put in for funding and hopefully we have crossed everything you get that. Getting funding is not easy.

[00:28:32] Roisin Taylor: It's not, no. Finding it is not easy. It's actually finding it that I think is the larger problems. You know there's, conversations with retailers and and ultimately the Sector body has to be self sustaining.

[00:28:47] Roisin Taylor: There is, you know, I run a national organization that is relied on funders and I have to spend an enormous amount of time as a co director doing fundraising applications, which takes me away from the campaigning. And so actually, you know, I'm really seeing this kind of initial funding raising round as a kickstart for me to get on the ladder and to, what I really need to do and to, and I want to do is to prove to Everybody involved that this has got legs and I'm really in it because I want to take what you're telling me and I want to turn that into something really tangible and exciting.

[00:29:20] Roisin Taylor: I want to invigorate people, not just the growers themselves, but also the consumer as well. Cause I think that's a much broader conversation that we need to have around floral media champions, which is something I'm about to go forth and get more funding for as well. And then ultimately it has to be probably a membership model.

[00:29:37] Roisin Taylor: And so we have to understand what that looks like. Scaling, tiering, all of those kinds of pieces, because I want it to be able to sustain itself. And that's what the British Apples and Pears do. It's not what certain other organizations do, but it depends on kind of what your key focus is. And if it's going to be campaigning and organizing, then that feels like something that is more sustainable in the long run.

[00:29:58] Roz Chandler: And it's getting a massive communication piece, bringing people on board, getting to grips with what it can do for them. Why should they get involved, being part of an association, all of that. Yeah. Where's the industry even going to be in five years? 

[00:30:10] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. That piece of, I think what I found very.

[00:30:15] Roisin Taylor: Troubling and difficult because I'm an eternal optimist. I don't know if you get that from sort of my general voice and demeanor, but what I found really challenging, and I guess a Nuffield scholarship is all about being challenged. I mean, that's like the kind of internal part of it is how much can we possibly challenge you in two years?

[00:30:30] Roisin Taylor: And the big thing for me was meeting growers who were. You know, loved what they do. In many cases, they're like fourth generation or you've come, you're a small scale grower and you've come from a different field, a different career field, and you're really passionate about what you do, but you're limited because you're thinking, Oh, I still don't really know what the future is.

[00:30:49] Roisin Taylor: Because actually, I'm kind of seeing the industry in decline or I'm being told the industry's in decline and I'm not actually sure where I fit within the industry more widely. And I, that is, that's very confronting to hear. And as I say, it haunted me around, but then when I was in New Zealand and when I was in the Netherlands, I met with some amazing growers associations and I was like, okay, hang on.

[00:31:08] Roisin Taylor: There is a model and a way out of that where you empower people. I think that's really vital here. And you change the conversation and we say, okay, we're no longer going to accept that we're going to be an industry in decline. We are going to actively choose to be a thriving industry. And I guess it comes back to survival or revival kind of conversation.

[00:31:26] Roisin Taylor: I believe that we can revive the industry and I'm really excited to be working with a lot of amazing people who hopefully will see that vision too. And so a big piece of this. Piece next is actually saying, okay, what does the industry look like in an ideal world in 10 years time, if you were to look out and sort of see a model of the British cut flower industry, what does that look like to you as a wholesaler?

[00:31:48] Roisin Taylor: Get really creative and don't limit yourself on what you expect. And then let's work back from that and see how we achieve that together. 

[00:31:56] Roz Chandler: Yeah, no, it's all extremely exciting. So yeah, I hope you get your funding. Me too. What's your next, what's your next phase? So 

[00:32:05] Roisin Taylor: The, application will go in late February for the, sort of small part of funding.

[00:32:10] Roisin Taylor: And then I'll hear in April, so not that long actually. And then I'm just going to be kind of building relationships with retailers and people who fund campaigning and advocacy work as well. I'm just selling that story. Making it very clear that it's a really important story to tell. So hopefully, and I'll, let everybody know as well.

[00:32:26] Roisin Taylor: I'm in the business of working out social media handles and all that piece of how do we kind of generate attention around that and how do we bring people to the table? So it's a big strategic. start. I've only just finished the Nuffield so I really should have a break but I'm not going to.

[00:32:40] Roisin Taylor: I'm 

[00:32:40] Roz Chandler: not good, I'm like a shark. I finished that now, those late nights and all that writing and all that researching and you finished it and you kind of go thank goodness for that and now you're on to the next big thing. 

[00:32:51] Roisin Taylor: Yes mum and I always talk about being sharks that will die if we don't stop moving forward and I genuinely unfortunately feel like that so 

[00:32:58] Roz Chandler: that's what we're 

[00:32:59] Roisin Taylor: taking on this next piece.

[00:33:01] Roz Chandler: So you'll keep us posted. You'll obviously I'm following you on social media as you'd expect. And we're going to put your handle and everything in the show notes so people can keep up to date with what your next moves are and what, you know, how they can get involved, because there's a big PR piece here, both in terms of consumers and the industry, because if the consumers don't push it at the bottom end.

[00:33:24] Roz Chandler: Nothing will ever happen. 

[00:33:25] Roisin Taylor: Yeah, no, exactly. And 

[00:33:27] Roz Chandler: if florists aren't involved and they're still using traditional methods and traditional floral foam, dare I say, then that won't change either. 

[00:33:34] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. 

[00:33:34] Roz Chandler: So it's so, such a complicated supply chain that Yeah, it's exciting. 

[00:33:42] Roisin Taylor: It is exciting. What's your big dream, Ros?

[00:33:44] Roisin Taylor: If you were to look out in 10 years time and you were to say, okay, this is the British cut flower industry I'm proud to be a part of, what does that look like to you? 

[00:33:52] Roz Chandler: Massively on an increase. Massively, more people doing it. I'm not really worried about flower farmers scaling necessarily, as long as they all come together and collaborate.

[00:34:01] Roz Chandler: So in a region you might have 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 flower farmers and they might all be growing on an acre. But if they're collaborating and the quality of their products can come together and they can sell to a consumer, then definitely that. I see hubs across the country that will be getting flowers into a florist's hands.

[00:34:17] Roz Chandler: It's too difficult right now for a florist to buy British flowers. It's too difficult. We have to be realistic that a florist is not going to go to four farms. To get everything she needs for a big event. She's just going to go online and order from the Dutch because she has limited time. I get that. But with that, therefore you have to, therefore, what can we do to help that?

[00:34:37] Roz Chandler: What does that look like? You know, and certainly I supply London florists and I've started to see an increase in demand for sure. And so I do take my van and I do drive into London twice a week full of flowers and I do deliver them to florists. They can't get enough of them, but it can't, that's such a small fright, that's just me doing it independently.

[00:34:57] Roz Chandler: It needs to be a big hub on the North Circular that sits and takes all the British flowers in and then distributes them. In a normal distribution model, you know, I'd love to see like a Deliveroo for flowers. I'd love to see you know, distribution is going to be the answer 

[00:35:12] Roisin Taylor: for 

[00:35:12] Roz Chandler: sure. Quality is going to be the answer and hubs across the country is going to be the answer and you've got to get it out there.

[00:35:18] Roz Chandler: You've got to get the product in the consumer's hands. You do. And that's the only way you're going to do that. So that would be my Nirvana. I like it. Even in five years, really, there should be possibly five. I mean, they do it in the States. They collaborate. They have hubs. They've got cooperatives that come together and supply big, major cities.

[00:35:37] Roz Chandler: So you have all the growers outside New York, supplying New York, and it works really effectively. And they have a bit more of a collaborative community culture than we do. 

[00:35:46] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. And I think they've really, Put your finger right on it there, that you need to be looking outwards. And I really can't recommend research and Enough Yield Enough for that, because it forces you to go, okay, let's just look out of the UK at the moment.

[00:36:00] Roisin Taylor: What works, what models are really, working? And unfortunately I couldn't afford to do the US this time, but it's something that I'd really like to explore further because I think they do have some really interesting models that we should bring over here. And actually one of the most important things that a lot of growers just simply haven't got the time or the energy to do.

[00:36:17] Roisin Taylor: is to look outside of what we're doing right now and look for other models that they think that we think might be working. And hopefully that we can do a little bit of that and bring that in. But I like your ideas, Ros. Those are some of the ideas we're going to bring to the table. 

[00:36:31] Roz Chandler: I am a member of the Association of Speciality Cut Flower Growers in the States.

[00:36:38] Roz Chandler: I was quite interested to see what they were doing. And I have been to their conference over in just outside Boston and we went to some growers. In fact, today I've got my growers t shirt on from Boston, which is really funny, and I intend to go again next year because they have this, they have these amazing conferences and they learn so much and it's a much bigger.

[00:36:55] Roz Chandler: There is much bigger, I mean, you're dealing with a much bigger population. You're dealing with much bigger climates across the whole of the States. You're dealing with much, in a way, bigger issues and distribution more massive than you'd ever get in the UK. And I learned so much when I went that's why I became a member and they have some great resources on that, but they have a cult, we have a cultural change to do first.

[00:37:15] Roz Chandler: So yeah, it's a massive project, but that would be lovely if we could just replicate some of that. 

[00:37:20] Roisin Taylor: Do you feel that cultural change is more a shift in kind of collaboration rather than competition? Do you feel like that's part of it? Yeah, so do I. So that's a big aspect of this. We really need to be actively more collaborative than we are at the moment.

[00:37:34] Roisin Taylor: And I don't know if that's a sort of British culture thing. I don't think it is because I speak to so many incredible people who want to share. It's just a Maybe an awareness of, I'm not sure how to, I'm not, maybe a lack of confidence about what they're sharing as well. And I think there's a confidence piece that needs to be built up in all of this.

[00:37:50] Roisin Taylor: Yeah. Can I also do a massive shout out to the Nuffield Farming Scholarships Trust actually, because I really wouldn't have been able to do any of this. I certainly wouldn't be in the position I am now without Nuffield and also a Big call out to anyone who is interested in also doing one. We're looking for people who are focusing on horticulture and the deadline it actually opens, the applications open in January.

[00:38:11] Roisin Taylor: There's plenty of time to get your application in. I'm doing a talk all about my experience. So please do just think about it. Have a think about what you might like to explore, whether it's cut flowers or market garden and get in touch. If you have any questions, no question is too stupid, but I'd love to see some more cut flower horticulture folk going into your field.

[00:38:30] Roisin Taylor: Thanks. Yeah, getting some more answers. Maybe the logistics piece is a whole other Nuffield in itself. You know, there's so many things I couldn't cover here. So I'm really want to encourage people to think about it. 

[00:38:39] Roz Chandler: Yeah. Distribution. Someone should do one on distribution and hub management and collaboration.

[00:38:43] Roz Chandler: Apart from that, life would be fine. Perfect. 

[00:38:45] Roisin Taylor: Sorted. 

[00:38:46] Roz Chandler: Yeah, we've solved it, Ros. Brilliant. Rosjean, thank you for coming over today. We will keep in touch as always. I will be following your journey. So we'll be looking at when you got the funding, because we know you're going to get it. So it's not if, it's when you got your funding.

[00:38:59] Roz Chandler: And we'll have you back on the podcast again and decide what comes next and how that the market can help you and how we can move it all forward. That would be brilliant. 

[00:39:07] Roisin Taylor: That sounds incredible. Thank you for your support, Ros. It's really appreciated. 

[00:39:10] Roz Chandler: No, you're brilliant. Thank you very much. 

[00:39:13] Roisin Taylor: Thanks, Ros.

[00:39:14] Roz Chandler: Take care.