The Cut Flower Podcast

From Childhood Passion to Chelsea Success: The Sweet Pea Story

• Roz Chandler • Season 1 • Episode 129

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Text Agony Aunt Roz with your Cutflower Questions.

In this heartwarming and insightful episode, we’re joined by Phil Johnson, sweet pea expert and the grower behind English Sweet Peas. Phil shares his lifelong connection to these delicate, nostalgic blooms—starting from age nine—and how that early passion grew into a celebrated career.

We explore:

  • His journey from hobbyist to head of English Sweet Peas
  • The release of his new book, A World of Sweet Peas
  • Receiving the Henry Eckford Memorial Medal—a high honour in the sweet pea world
  • The real challenges climate change poses to growing and breeding sweet peas today
  • His ongoing work to create new varieties, including the dream of a yellow sweet pea
  • Why moisture matters and how successional sowing can keep blooms coming
  • How sweet peas carry deep emotional ties and memories for so many

Plus, Phil reflects on his Chelsea Flower Show milestone and offers practical advice for anyone wanting to grow sweet peas successfully.

Whether you’re a seasoned flower grower or just discovering the magic of sweet peas, this episode is a treasure trove of knowledge, heart, and horticultural passion.


Roz (00:01)
So today I'm very pleased to welcome Phil Johnson over from English Sweet Peas. Some of you will remember, probably about a year ago that we had Roger Parsons on our podcast talking all about sweet peas. So we'll just talk about the developments of what's happened. I mean, you must have told lots and lots of people what's happened in the developments, but it's very exciting what the next stage is. So Phil, tell us about a bit about your background and how you came to run English Sweet Peas and what's happened.

Phil Johnson (00:29)
Okay, so as I think was broadcast the other day, I started growing sweet peas as a very young lad of nine years old and I've been growing them every year since, which as you can tell from the sighting is probably about the last ten years or so. Joking aside, I don't know, even at that young age there was just something about sweet peas that attracted me, just the range of colours and the amazing scent and ⁓

Roz (00:38)
Bye.

you

Phil Johnson (00:58)
you know that you can grow these, sow these tiny little seeds and then you know next to no time they're taller than you are and full of flour and perfume and just you know I was hooked. So ⁓ fast forward a few years I joined something called the National Sweet Pea Society and I went to the first show when I was just 16. I managed to get a second in the novice class there. ⁓

Roz (01:22)
everyone.

Phil Johnson (01:27)
I then got more and into the society, met Roger Parsons along the way. I think we've known each other probably a good 30 years or so now. So we're good friends. So yeah, I did all sorts of things through the Sweet Pea Society. Loved all that side of things, all the competitions and all that camaraderie. And then I guess probably about 15, 20 years ago, I was working as a

Roz (01:36)
Okay.

Phil Johnson (01:56)
as a gardener ⁓ and trying to make ends meet as we all know it's not the best paid profession and I was growing a few plants for seed and to sell some young plants along with these plant sales I was attending and that's where we started first started producing a range of sweet peas and sort of bumbled along there for a number of years

around about 2016-17 a chap called Dr John Masefield approached me at one of the Sweet Peas shows and asked if I'd be interested in buying his company as he wanted to retire and that's the one where we work now so that's ⁓ English Sweet Peas is the retail arm and then Seed Links is the wholesale arm of the firm so we're sort of one and the same. So that's sort of a quick bit of background

The last six months has been absolutely mind-blowing in my little world of Sweet Peas. Just everything's happened after all these many, many years. So it started off with publishing our new book. I may as well get a plug in for that. So that's called A World of Sweet Peas. And I wrote that alongside a lady called Cecilia Wingard from Sweden. She's an excellent customer of ours.

Roz (03:04)
Yeah, absolutely.

Phil Johnson (03:18)
They called her the Queen of Sweet Peas in Sweden and she's really generated so much interest in her lovely flower over there and in the wider Scandinavian area. They've done marvellous things. We managed to write that book with an amazing team of florists and photographers and graphic designers and I'm really pleased with the quality of the book. Looking at Sweet Peas from a slightly different perspective,

So we're looking at how to how to arrange sweet peas in a vase and what companion plants to grow with them, you know, to enhance the sweet peas. there's some amazing photography there. Things like looking at the nuance of scent within sweet peas, which I'm sure we'll hear more about in the in near future. Growing sweet peas with children and just trying to make it appear sort of easy to do to make the whole thing appeal to

Roz (03:52)
Interesting.

Phil Johnson (04:14)
everybody and not just those sort of keen exhibitors. then from that we went on to negotiating with Roger Parsons to take on his business and his national collection. that's, I feel a great sense of responsibility I have to say, taking that on and to keep that going for the next generation.

We're continuing to work with Roger in that in that area as well His daughter Fran in fact has joined our company. So it's it's very much a sort of a continuation and a business as usual then at the National Sweet Pea Society AGM ⁓ they Decided to present me with something called the Henry Eckford Memorial Medal And I'm just hugely overwhelmed with that. It's the top honor in sweet peas

Roz (04:46)
It was brown.

Phil Johnson (05:06)
and there's only six of us in the whole world that hold it at the moment so it's really you know exclusive club and a call for rogers one of those along with a number of others in called including ⁓ keith hamet out in new zealand and then of course you know in the last couple of weeks you go to chelsea for the first time and you get a gold medal so it's just been absolutely everything's come at once there we go

Roz (05:29)
I'd see it.

Yeah, I mean, talk about a roller coaster and you couldn't have perceived that was going to happen. So change can happen quite fast, can't it? It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. yes, sweet peas are interesting as a cut flower and we can talk about that because obviously I'm a cut flower grower and a farmer. So we're growing a lot of sweet peas and we've always grown Spencer's because of their stem length.

Phil Johnson (05:41)
Absolutely, even after all these years.

Roz (05:57)
But we, know, obviously if you're arranging them, you need them to be quite tall. You need them to have a lovely scent, of course you do. But you're probably, primary concern is how long is the stem? And we can talk about that, because I've found differences this year, big growing, undercover and growing outside. Massive differences in stem length, which is quite interesting. So let's talk about what's the future.

for the English sweet peas. Where'd you go from now? You've got a gold medal, you've got an award, you've now merged two other companies into yours, wholesale retail. I mean, is it global wholesale retail? Is that the...

Phil Johnson (06:26)
Yeah,

Well,

it would be, but of course customs and fighter sanitary just restricts things unbelievably. At the moment we can ship into Canada and Norway without any problems, but getting particularly retail orders into the EU is just impossible. just things get, you you try to sort of do it on the quiet as it were and it just doesn't happen. Things get stopped.

Roz (06:39)
So sad.

on it.

We can't.

Phil Johnson (07:00)
and then otherwise you've got the whole sort of fighter sanitary process which adds dramatically to the cost. So we're able to get a bit of wholesale out there but we've been looking at Australia, New Zealand, United States, all sorts of things and it's really difficult even for wholesale orders so it's a pain.

Roz (07:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

Phil Johnson (07:23)
But where we're going next, I don't know. I'm still sort of coming down off the high of Chelsea. So we're starting to talk about what we're going to do next. I mean, there's loads of breeding work that we're doing at the moment to expand the range of colors and types and things available. We'll see. We'll see.

Roz (07:25)
you

I was going to talk to you about the

breeding program. So you're doing a breeding program at the moment. So what do you look for in a new sweet pea? You know, if you had your ideal magic wand and you were Mary Poppins and you came along said, I'd like a sweet pea that was this, what would it be?

Phil Johnson (07:52)
Well, obviously

the Holy Grail of sweet pea breeders is a yellow one. There isn't a yellow one, all sorts of other colors and shades. But ever since Henry Eckford 140 years ago started breeding sweet peas, everybody wants to find a yellow one. So that's got to be top of my list. And then beyond that, it's really I just want to find some different colors, something that's different.

Roz (08:14)
That's interesting.

Phil Johnson (08:21)
why do I want to produce, as I always say, another white one that's going to you know, arguably just the same as another 10 that are already available. So I'm looking for different colors, different patterns, different types, also something that's different.

Roz (08:40)
Yeah, interesting. Yeah, yellow one I never thought. See, if you're a dahlia breeder, you'd want to be finding a blue one. ⁓ So now obviously that makes sense now. If you're sweet peas, you're obviously going to go for yellow. That's really interesting. So you've taken on this, so you're breeding as well. ⁓ How long does it take to get a new sweet pea from idea to market?

Phil Johnson (08:46)
Yep. Yep.

It varies so much. think the shortest period that we've managed is probably about six years, but usually it's 10 years and over. But it becomes easy because once you've started, every year it just kicks in and keeps rolling on. So once you've started, you're on that sort of ride, roller coaster, if you like. each year there's some amazing new stuff.

Roz (09:07)
Wow. ⁓ Gosh, I can't even think 10 years in the future.

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (09:29)
I've just been looking at the very first few flowers on this years breeding and yeah, it's the best part for me, seeing those new things open up. Amazing.

Roz (09:38)
Yeah,

wow. So what are some of the biggest challenge in running a business like this? Because sweet peas, mean, a great germination, they're great seeds, great, great people want them. There's a great viability in them. It's probably had a bit of a resurgence actually, I would think, as a plant. But what's the biggest challenge is for you?

Phil Johnson (10:03)
The business since I've been running this one, the focus is changing. it's the problem that... Put your teeth back in. When I started with the business, was 95 % wholesale and 5 % retail. We had a little website which was just bumbling along in the background. We didn't do much with it and what have you. And we used to produce huge quantities of seed overseas.

but the climate had to be right and the grower had to be right for that to happen. But with climate change in particular, that's had a huge impact and I mean, you know, growing anything is unpredictable but we're getting more bad years than good ones. It's got to the stage last year where we had one of the crops where I got virtually

Roz (10:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (11:01)
no more seed came back than I'd sent out. it's and it cost me a comparatively small fortune to do that. So we decided I guess around 18 months ago to put more effort into our retail arm because at least that way we're getting as much money into the business as we can for all the seeds. So we've put a lot of effort into developing website and social media and going to Chelsea and all.

Roz (11:04)
Wow, okay.

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (11:29)
this sort of thing which is great. We're still very much involved with the wholesale market but we need to get money in to make the whole thing work together. It's not economical to do one without the other, we need that combination of the two. So that's the challenge. Yep, it's climate change really as much as anything.

Roz (11:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, cash has to come in. Yeah.

But lots of people are talking about climate change. How people still believe it isn't happening is amazing. ⁓ But obviously as a grower, I see every single day, you know, it's like, you know, can we really have no rain for six weeks? You know, what is going on? And then I did quite a bit of research and it said by 2050, we're going to have the climate of Barcelona.

Phil Johnson (11:57)
Yep.

Roz (12:11)
And you look at that and that's really warm in the summer, really warm. It can be wet in February and March, but that means that we've almost got to think about what we're to be growing by 2050, which seems really scary. ⁓

Phil Johnson (12:13)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ Definitely.

Roz (12:25)
So we've

got to really take it quite as grow. It's got to be what's our next challenge. Of course, everything we grow. Now we're talking about drought resistant, aren't we? And we never really thought about that before. And sweet peas like lots of water. They like to be hydrated.

Phil Johnson (12:38)
They do, they

do. And I was involved in one of these seminars with RHS and they got a water specialist there. And the lady was saying that the way that she interprets the change in the weather is that we're going to end up having wetter winters and drier summers. So I take the positive out of that, that we should look at.

Roz (12:58)
Yeah.

Phil Johnson (13:03)
collecting, storing more of that, storing more of the water so it's there when we need it. That's my hope, it's positive spin on the whole thing.

Roz (13:04)
Water harvesting. Yeah.

I think that's gonna happen.

No, I think that's definitely happening. think flower farmers generally are thinking about rainwater harvesting. I think we're, because the cost of it is too high anyway, so for it to be viable. And I think, you know, IBC tanks and pumps and all of that is something we're all going to have to do. And then, yeah, it's an interesting one. You're going to have to collect off your polytunnels. We're going to have to collect everywhere. I mean, I live in a thatched house, so we don't have any gutters. So it doesn't really help me very much, but it helps me in the field on some units and things like that. But you've got to be quite...

In it fifth, I think, and put in rain water harvesting. It's definitely more of it is on my list. You know, I think we've gone from solar for our electric and I think the next big thing will be water. So I think we've got to embrace that and just move ahead with it. So going back to more exciting things like Chelsea. So how did you, what was the process? What did you do?

Phil Johnson (13:51)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

So it really started, the idea came together when we were first talking to Roger Parsons about taking on his business. And he said that he'd always had this wish to put an exhibit together for Chelsea. But with his resources, he didn't think he'd got enough to do it. And he sort of was starting to chat about a combination of our two businesses getting together and making it happen. And yeah, I guess after all these years,

Roz (14:30)
Thank

Phil Johnson (14:38)
you think that it would be a good idea but having been to a number of these smaller shows I know all the aggro that goes on in the background as you do and so anyway and of course the team here was saying yeah yeah we've got to do it it'd be great don't know wasn't convinced but anyway we did it put in the application months ago the all the rules and regulations are just mind-blowing

Roz (14:41)
odd.

Phil Johnson (15:05)
But yeah, we got there all the usual stress and, you know, half the crop didn't make it. You know, we grew 30 varieties with the hope of getting 20 to the show and we just about managed it. But yeah, all the usual, you know, yeah.

Roz (15:22)
It's hard work, lots of investment.

think, you know, even when you think about even some of the, you know, I've always wanted to do a show garden at something like Gardeners Live. But when I looked into it, amount of sponsorship and the amount that you need and the resources you need is huge. And even a small display of a floristry display at Chelsea requires a lot. So maybe that's something for the future, but now you've got one, you'll have to go back and get another one, won't you?

Phil Johnson (15:49)
Apparently

so. We had a debrief last week and we had a show of hands and it was a split decision. I think the biggest thing that we need to bear in mind is that we've got to keep the nursery running while we're at Chelsea and everything's going on there and all of that.

Roz (15:50)
⁓ It's like one of those things you can't lose, like an Olympic medal.

Yes, that's the big thing in May. Yeah.

Phil Johnson (16:18)
Yep. But yes, of course we go back.

Roz (16:18)
So it's quite difficult. you have your really passionate community. think the thing that Sweet Peas does is it does engage a really passionate fan base, a community. ⁓ We've got some friends who live in Swallowclift down in Wiltshire.

and their neighbor grows sweet peas. Now I think he's, I think he's probably 80 now, has been doing it for probably 40 years. It's extremely...

experienced in it and you know in the varieties and he's doing some breeding and all sorts of you know that's his world his world is sweet peas you look over the garden fence and that's his world and you think my goodness this is this is a real community of growers that are going to grow to the anti-degree and they're going to go for sweet peas and and i've seen it so what's your favorite sweet pea story or a memory from a customer of sweet peas well i think sweet peas evoke memories i think they're quite enough kind of

Phil Johnson (16:53)
Mm. Mm.

Roz (17:16)
Everybody loves them because of the scent, of course, or most people do, but it's...

Phil Johnson (17:19)
They are,

they're very evocative. Whoever you speak to and you start talking about sweet peas and everybody says, mum and dad grew them, granddad grew them. I remember them, you know, when I was a little child of four or five. And I think it's the scent. think scent is that very evocative sense that takes you back to early days and first memories. And for me, every year when I sniff the first one,

It's just amazing, even after all these years.

Roz (17:53)
I mean, I get it tenfold when I'm growing in a tunnel because you walk in and you're hit with it completely, know, even before 10 feet away, you can smell it. So, yeah, and then you put them in your car and you take them to a wedding or you're doing a funeral or whatever you're doing. And it's the one flower that you can smell the scent of. So it's very exciting to see what's going to happen and where you're going to take this. So if somebody was thinking of growing sweet peas for the first time, what would you recommend as a starting point?

Phil Johnson (17:58)
Yeah.

That's a question and a half, isn't it? Starting point. So I think that the big thing with sweet peas is we already touched on is making sure they got sufficient moisture. So ideally grow them in the ground rather than in pots because it's the whole drying out thing and it's going to be a big pot to be successful. Get that organic matter mixed into the ground. Plenty of it mixed in.

Roz (18:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (18:51)
handful of fish blood and bone something of that sort and that would be the first thing I would suggest. When you sew them, how you sew them, it's just detail and it's fashion and it's all of that sort of thing. We did a at Wisley Cup for a couple of years and we actually sewed half the trial in the autumn and then the same varieties half again in the spring.

Roz (19:01)
Autumn's zone, spring's zone, it's a great thing. Yeah.

Phil Johnson (19:18)
And surprise surprise, all we found was that as the autumn lock finished flowering, the spring lock kicked in. So it's successional sowing. That's all it is. Yeah.

Roz (19:26)
you were buying time. Yeah,

and the strength and everything was exactly the same.

Phil Johnson (19:31)
Yeah I guess so, it does vary bit on the particular spring and summer that you've got but that was the overall result that we took from it. It's successional summer.

Roz (19:40)
Yeah, you think if you're

going to overwinter, yeah, so successional sewing, isn't it? So you're, yeah, I mean, we kind of successional sew by, we autumn sew, and then we do a bit more spring sewing, but generally, the ones in the tunnel are going to be ahead by about three weeks to maybe even a month, or the ones outside. So we are kind of successional sewing. But if you were doing both outside, that'd be interesting, wouldn't you? Because you've got a march if you do your autumn sewing.

Phil Johnson (19:55)
Yeah.

Roz (20:06)
on the ones that go in the spring. yeah, double whammy, more sweet peas. I find that the one thing that you've got to do obviously with sweet peas, you've got to keep cutting them. And sometimes that can be like, ⁓ if you've got quite a lot, think we've got about, I don't know, 900 or something. And you think, here we go again. I'm down cutting them again.

Phil Johnson (20:21)
Yeah.

What again

going back to the Weasley thing the whole trial was I think was about 70 cultivars of the of the Grandiflora types So they have the shorter stems the stronger scent and so many more flowers than the Spencer's and the trials team couldn't cope with it So they sent a message around to all the all the Weasley staff Friday afternoon come and help yourself to sweet peas take a bunch home with you and that that's how they coped with it, but you know

Roz (20:41)
you

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (20:51)
from a flower to complain about it producing too many flowers. mean, you know, it's ridiculous.

Roz (20:54)
So many.

No,

no, What I've done recently in the tunnel is at the weekend I decided I'd take all down one side, so I'd cut them all and use them. And I want to see exactly day by day or even minute by minute on how quickly it comes back. You know, is it really as quickly as we think it's going to be? Is it a day? Is it a week? Is it two weeks? Is it 10 days? Is it half a day? What is it? It's going to be interesting.

Phil Johnson (21:23)
Yeah, I can't give you an answer because it depends on the weather and everything else. I'm aware that if you cut the blooms too far up tight, I'm not explaining that very well, but if you get to the stage that you've only got buds left, that that will actually delay the next one coming open. Whereas I'm told that if you leave a flower on, then it will encourage the next one to come out. I don't know, I haven't...

Roz (21:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, okay.

This is a test worth doing.

Phil Johnson (21:53)
I haven't tried that,

but it could be interesting.

Roz (21:56)
Yeah I might try that one. So just a quick fire run, what's your favorite sweet pea variety of all time?

Phil Johnson (22:03)
I haven't got one. I love all of them. No, honestly, I love all of them. Last week it was that new one that we launched after the marvelous Amy Doudon. Because it's just... Not quite. We made sure we got plenty of that. But we sold out on Shell Pink because of course Monty had touched it. that was... I should get into trouble. ⁓ But yes, so that one we did sell out. But Amy Doudon.

Roz (22:05)
Have you not?

Didn't you sell out on that one? ⁓

That's it.

you

Phil Johnson (22:32)
It's actually it should be quite a good one because it's got decent length stems for me always produces at least five blooms on a stem ⁓ Lovely shade of pink so it's you know, it should be a good one for cut flower growers

Roz (22:41)
Nah, that's a lot.

might have a look at that, never got too many. Scent or colour which is more important?

Phil Johnson (22:51)
That's for sure.

For me.

It's like asking for your favourite child, isn't it? I'm probably going for colour. One of the reasons I say that is that my old nose is getting a bit worn out, so I'm not as sensitive to it as I used to be.

Roz (23:04)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yep, I would go colour and stem length. would go. Yeah.

Phil Johnson (23:19)
Yeah, but do you want to chat about the stem length now?

Well, there's different schools of thought on all this because people always ask for the ones with the long stems and the intense strong scent. Well, actually, it doesn't really go together because usually you have the stronger scent with the shorter ones with the smaller flowers. But as you know, you can use trails of sweet peas. Yeah, so you cut a length of the plant itself.

Roz (23:36)
No.

Yeah.

Phil Johnson (23:47)
and then you

Roz (23:47)
Yeah.

Phil Johnson (23:48)
get several blooms on the stem. I've also found that get a better vase length because of the life because the next bloom up the stem opens as well.

Roz (23:54)
That's the end of the video.

interesting because florists for instance because we do lot of wholesale deliveries to London wholesale florists want it with the whole the whole thing they want it much longer even the length of a spencer is not long enough I mean it's just about long for a bouquet but actually if they could give them more of the plant they'd be happier.

Phil Johnson (24:16)
So I think that's a way to combine the two, get the scent and the stem length. And ⁓ we've grown this year a lot of the winter flowering, spring flowering types, because I haven't really done a proper sort of look at that. And I think we've ended up with about 30 established cultivars. And then I've got some breeding that comes into that category as well. And yes, we've grown in some glass houses.

Roz (24:20)
Hmm

Phil Johnson (24:46)
but ⁓ we measured stem length up to 75cm and that was without any restriction on the growth that was just making sure they got adequate water and of course you're then getting

Roz (24:51)
Wow, yeah.

I I've only

got 60. I ⁓ can only say we've got one with 60. I'm going to get out there with my tape measure.

Phil Johnson (25:01)
well that's that's really good

but you know again with those they're they're multifluorescent getting five six seven eight plumes and a stem so it all helps doesn't it so I'm quite sold on those at the moment

Roz (25:13)
Yeah, 100%.

Which one has the strongest scent then? Is it Grandoflora?

Phil Johnson (25:22)
Yes, ⁓ for us, we're doing some work looking at the nuance of and actually describing the scent of each individual cultivar. There's sufficient difference between them and you'll hear more about it in the coming period. ⁓ So we've not only done that, so you're getting some descriptions like you'd read on the back of a wine bottle, but we're also grouping them into different categories.

Roz (25:40)
Wow, okay.

Phil Johnson (25:49)
as a broader thing as David Austin have done with their roses. So we're looking at categories like spice, which is almost peppery and sort of tickles your nose. Sweet, which is, yeah, they're all sweet, but this is sort of enhanced sweetness like, I don't know, like dolly mixtures or crystallized fruit or something like that. So it's a bit more. And then we've got musk and

Roz (25:53)
Yeah.

All right, OK.

Phil Johnson (26:17)
Lord I forgot what the other one is, Spiced Sweet Musk.

I'm going to get shot. Forgot the other one. Anyway, the fifth category, which is the important one, needs a better name, but we're just calling them distinctive at the moment. And these are the ones that don't fit into the other categories. And top of the shop for intensity of scent is Orbit Blue. So it's white with a blue edge to it. Lovely looking thing. Good doer. And we think it knocks Matakana into a cocked hat in terms of strength and intensity of scent.

Roz (26:26)
for something, you might get shot for that, that's fine.

no.

Mmm.

Phil Johnson (26:50)
So there's my tip.

Roz (26:51)
Wow.

So and which is best for a cut flower to our cut flower listeners? Is it Spencer's? ⁓

Phil Johnson (26:59)
I well

it depends what you're using them for doesn't it? I love the Grandiflores for the quantity of bloom that they produce and the intensity of the scent. for a small posy or for a smaller vase or euston trails I'm going to go there but having grown all these winter flowering types, if you need long stems, lots of flowers then you've got to go there.

Roz (27:26)
Yeah, yeah, you're right, it's a yeah. And your greatest top tip for any sweet pea grower, what would it be? I've got one. ⁓ Two actually.

Phil Johnson (27:38)
I'm probably going to go back to the moisture thing to the watering. Yeah

Roz (27:41)
Yeah,

I think you underestimate how much you need to hydrate them. I think you're right, moisture is definite because they die very quickly if they don't have moisture. Support, of course. ⁓ We use Harris fencing for ours, to support ours and they climb up them and they're very happy. ⁓ So that would definitely be a top tip.

Phil Johnson (27:52)
Yep. So what's your top tip for three piece? OK.

Roz (28:05)
Spence variety for long stem would be a top tip. Hydration, definitely. And then successional sewing, like you say. I think it's interesting to note that there's no real difference because I think people start to panic in the spring and think, no, I haven't done my autumn sewing, but actually it doesn't make any difference. Yeah. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

Phil Johnson (28:19)
They just come in earlier.

Roz (28:24)
Yeah, probably not in a pot outside due to water. You know, we've grown a few in a pot, just like where our workshop is and so on, because they're nice and we had some left over. But yeah, I think out in the open is a better way of doing it.

Phil Johnson (28:38)
And also

if you're going to grow them in pots then use them all dwarf ones. There's quite a range where they only get up to about a metre in height and they're ideal for pots because you get lots of flowers, they're bushy, they're not too demanding.

Roz (28:42)
Yes.

Yeah.

What do you put your thoughts on an everlasting sweet pea?

Phil Johnson (28:56)
think they're amazing. The Lathorus latifolius, white and shades of pink, amazing thing, so tough. Yeah, great things. Of course, no scent, but in terms of cutting long trails and having lots of flowers, then yeah, I think they're really good.

Roz (29:06)
No scent.

Yeah, I agree. That was my biggest shock was there's no scent and it was like, how can there be no scent? But you're right, they're very robust and they come back and cutting them and trailing them is absolutely great. So yeah, well, I look forward to reading your book. It'll be very informative. I'm absolutely sure.

Phil Johnson (29:29)
Good. Hope you like

it.

Roz (29:31)
and I will let you know. So I will put in the link in the show notes to your website and also your Instagram handle and also your book that will be really good. When did it come out the book?

Phil Johnson (29:33)
Okay.

Thank you very much.

We did a Swedish launch which was amazing and we did a launch at Wisley the first weekend in December. Just gone.

Roz (29:52)
Right, okay. Yeah,

brilliant, okay. All good bookshops you can get it from.

Phil Johnson (29:57)
Well, obviously you can buy it directly from us, which is probably the easiest thing. I believe it's on sale through Amazon, but don't quote me on that because it's a...

complicated process.

Roz (30:09)
always is. It's a publisher process. Yeah, get it. Really get it. Well, Phil, it was lovely to talk to you. Thanks for coming over and answering our questions. And I'm now going to go and pick some white sweet peas. Somebody wants 50 white sweet peas for an event tomorrow. So I'm going to go and pick 50 with tendrils and trailing and I'll keep you posted. All right. Take care. Thank you.

Phil Johnson (30:11)
Yeah.

Thank you. Pleasure. Anytime.

You

lovely. Thank you. Thank you very much. And you

too. Cheers.