The Cut Flower Podcast

Why herbs belong in your bouquet, your garden, and your life with Andy from Urban Herbs

• Roz Chandler • Season 1 • Episode 131

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Text Agony Aunt Roz with your Cutflower Questions.

In this inspiring episode, Roz reconnects with Andy from Urban Herbs, 18 months after their first chat, to dive into how his herb-growing business has evolved in unexpected and beautiful ways.

Now joined by his wife as a co-leader in the business, Andy reflects on how this partnership has brought fresh energy, clarity, and new ideas to Urban Herbs.

They dig into:

  • How herbs offer emotional healing and spark deep nostalgia
  • The overlooked second season of herb planting
  • Creative and beautiful ways herbs are now being used in cut flower arrangements and wedding bouquets
  • Why growing herbs in urban front gardens isn’t just practical—but a powerful act of resilience
  • How climate change may be opening new possibilities for growers
  • And the exciting future of Urban Herbs, with a focus on education, community connection, and turning knowledge into empowerment.

Whether you're a cut flower grower, a gardener, or simply herb-curious, this episode is full of fresh inspiration, smart tips, and grounded advice to grow something good.

Connect with Andy on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/urbanherbsuk/ or https://urban-herbs.co.uk/

Use the code CutFlowerFestival10 for a special podcast discount.

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Roz (00:00)
So I'm delighted to welcome Andy of Herb & Herbs I can't say that word I want to go herbs I must be American oops sorry lots of American listeners ⁓ from Andy from Herb & Herbs and we're just trying to work out when we last spoke and it will have been 18 months ago so I wanted to catch up with Andy and see what he's up to see where he is with his business any new developments so welcome Andy tell us what you're up to now 18 months on

Andy - Urban Herbs (00:28)
Roz, it's great to be back and it has been a very long time, there's been some big changes for us. Probably for me personally, the biggest change is that my wife now co-runs the business with me, she's come on board full-time. And miraculously, everything's well-organised. know, invoices are just being paid on time and magically there's like a schedule. I mean, it's purely coincidental of course, you understand.

Roz (00:43)
Hahaha.

Yeah, it just happened at the right time. Yeah, right.

Andy - Urban Herbs (00:55)
Well, Kate's come from the world of event management, so it's quite a segue into the world of horticulture. And actually, all joking aside, think probably one of the best things about what Kate does is that she brings that kind of non-industry energy to what we do. So, so often I will just fire out terms like, you know, that's a biennial, that's a perennial. And Kate will just stop and look at me and roll her eyes and say,

in English, Because, that's the reality, it? That there's a lot of people out there who have got so much enthusiasm for growing, but they don't necessarily have that kind of what I call an industry vocabulary or, you know, the unspoken knowns that we take for granted. Yeah. And again, within my industry, it's a very old fashioned kind of production horticulture.

very old-fashioned world and you'll get largely sort of I'd say older guys that will sort of shuffle around and say right what you want to do you want to plant these in week 8 and these in week 14 and very often Kate will just come and say why what happens if you planted them earlier and the scary thing is Roz she's right a lot of the time and it's just

It's cool because the two of us are working together bringing those different skills, bringing those different energies. And I say it's a bit of a segue but she comes from the world of events and I think there's something very very experiential about Herbs. We don't really do many markets or shows anymore but when we used to do those shows Kate always used to sort of describe our pop-up shop as an experience.

that customers want to come in, they want to engage the senses. Because I think, you know what, we live increasingly quite sterile lives, don't we? You know, we live in thankfully well insulated homes. And if you work in an office, the changing season, it's just what you experience when you walk from the front door to the car, and then from the car to the office. And I think when you...

rub your hands through these herb plants you just engage the senses and I'm sure I've told you this the last time I was on but it's such a cool story that one of my customers he works in the mental health industry and he was saying to me that when you smell something you know when you engage the senses like that it accesses a part of your brain that is totally different to the part of the brain that we spend most of our time in the front cortex

it accesses the rear cortex of and you know to any listener that knows about this stuff please forgive my terminology but it's a part of the brain that deals with nostalgia senses and that's why you know when you smell let's say a rosemary plant it reminds you being in a grandparents garden or something like that because you're engaging the part of the brain that deals with nostalgia and emotion

And it's very therapeutic because people like me and you, you know, we live our lives in the front cortex of our brains. We worry about paying invoices or uploading podcasts, you know? And when you go into that other part of your brain, it's very stress relieving. So we very much encourage our customers to embrace that experiential quality. know, it's true that these herbs, really take you on a journey.

Roz (04:24)
It's like growing, it's like pricking out, it's like creating floral arrangements. It's anything that involves your hands and your mind at the same time. Actually, you can't let anything else come in because it hasn't got the capacity to do that. It's just got the capacity to work on what you're doing in front of you. I can't think of what I'm having for my tea if I'm doing a floral arrangement for a wedding. I can't even think about that. I'll go days without eating and thinking, my goodness, I've missed food. So.

because this morning I was out planting and weeding and so on and I forgot to have breakfast so I had a whisper bar instead, which is not great for breakfast. But yeah, you are engaged in activity and that's why it's good for your health, mental health.

Andy - Urban Herbs (05:04)
Yeah, and the other aspect to it which I find really interesting is that the front part of our brain that deals with logic and reason is the part of our brain that is so used to almost just having everything on demand. So kind of instant gratification.

So let's say you go into like a chain restaurant, you can order the same meal every single day of the year.

But what Kate and this background in events has taught me is that within the Horticultural Calendar, every month is an event. Every season is a new, I don't know, like theater play being released. And each will have its own, you know, from a business point of view, kind of like branding and marketing for us. But on a personal level,

It's just fantastic to realise that the seasons aren't going to be around forever and embracing that kind of seasonality that when a plant is ready to harvest... Let's take an example, a plant which I absolutely love and 50 % of the people listening will absolutely hate by the way and that is Vietnamese Coriander. Yeah, Vietnamese Coriander, it's a perennial variety of coriander, it doesn't go to seed

much easier to grow than traditional coriander. And essentially it can be used as a coriander substitute, the flavour isn't exactly the same but it does a very similar job. And I can't get enough of it. But you can't really grow it outside unless you're in a very very sheltered spot.

And I just think it's so magical when the seasons change, when you go into spring and Vietnamese coriander returns to our menu again. You know, all through the winter I have not been eating it, deliberately. And very often, you know, customers get in touch and say, you know, it's a phrase actually very often people use. They say, want herbs that I can have all year round.

And I think I wouldn't. You know, I like the fact that certain herbs will lose their foliage during the winter and disappear and then re-emerge in spring. Because it's like a development chef. Nature is the best development chef ever, Changing the menu every single season.

Outside right now, I've got plants that I could not grow outside during even the early spring. Varieties like Thai basil, lemon verbena when it's young can be quite tender, lemongrass. And it's so exciting. It's about embracing those sort of, embracing the seasonal change. And I don't know about you, Roz, but I just get so excited now about the seasons changing.

Roz (07:54)
Yeah, yeah, get excited about the seasons changing. I'm a little bit worried about global warming. I'm a little bit worried we've had no rain really since the beginning of May. I mean, literally none. And we're now going just about into July. So, you know, everything for us growing wise outside has come earlier. We've got, we've got daily is out now in the end of June, which wouldn't normally happen till August. We've got plants out much earlier and that

kind of the season is changing, I think we just need to be aware of that. But that actually working with plants allows you to see that happening in real life. It's happening in front of us.

Andy - Urban Herbs (08:33)
I'll share a story with you that my gran grew up on a farm in the 1950s and her dad was a bit of a character and apparently whenever he used to see stuff you know about you know the driest summer since fill in the blank or the wettest summer he'd say do you know what he'd it's the strangest year since last year and I don't know about you Roz but this season has been so different to last year because

Roz (08:47)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (09:01)
Last year I wrote off so many pairs of boots. You know, it was like I had trench foot or something. That it was so wet. It was so soggy. You the lavenders that we moved outside were really struggling. Purely because of those wet conditions. Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad for a little bit of rain now.

but I'm glad to not be riding off too many pairs of boots this year, I can tell you.

Roz (09:28)
Yeah, I'd be glad for a lot of rain actually right now. We had a little bit this morning for about four minutes, made no difference. You know, we're water harvesting now way ahead, you know, thinking about the winter and how we're going to harvest small water and how we're going to get it piped out and how actually, you know, the river we've got is fairly close to us, how we can actually use the river water and pipe that in and we've got to that levels now. It's so arid and so dry, we could be in a desert, but...

you're still growing with the seasons and we know this will change and things will move and we will move into autumn and then we'll be into winter and the seasons but growing allows us to know when those seasons are happening so yeah I'm very very grateful for that.

Andy - Urban Herbs (10:08)
and you know watch this space because I've got a prediction for you from a friend of mine who is Malaysian and has been living in the UK for quite a while now and she reckons that the UK climate is becoming more like Malaysia in that you have hot weather, you have a hot summer and honestly Roz just think about this and think about the last couple of years because this rings true for me that you get this warm spell the weather breaks some point mid

Roz (10:23)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (10:36)
middle end of July beginning of August and then you're into rainy season where you will have just these really heavy downpours. When we used to travel around doing all the food festivals I always used to get soaked on the second August bank holiday, know the late August bank holiday. Never ever did we have a dry August bank holiday.

Roz (10:57)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (11:04)
you know, field we were standing in or mark it, it inevitably would become a mud bath or a river. And I think there's some truth in what she says and I think it's about adapting because ⁓ so many herbs that we grow, they want, and you you'll have seen the label. It says sunny, free draining conditions. I'm thinking about getting that tattooed somewhere on my body, you know.

Roz (11:30)
90 % of everything will have sunny, well-draining conditions.

Andy - Urban Herbs (11:34)
But I think for so many of the Mediterranean herbs, it really is. I think people, if there's one takeaway that people should take from listening to this, it's if you want to really, really sort of level up your herb growing, just really look at what growing medium you're using. Make sure that if you're growing herbs in containers, make sure the containers are free draining. An older grower once said to me that you can tell a really, really good growing medium.

because it won't be waterlogged after three or four days of heavy rain and it will still be wet during a heatwave if you water it at seven o'clock in the morning, go to work and come back. Now for us, we would always suggest kind of potting things up with a little bit of grit. You can use horticultural grit, if you don't want to sort of just spend extra money, you can go to the builders yard and get like a fine grit in a fairly big bag quite cheaply and just work that in.

with all your herbs, know I'm talking herbs like thyme, rosemary, sage because that will just help the water soak away. One of the really exciting things for me in my job is that we've got through the ⁓ spring rush now.

and you know I've worked in the horticulture industry for a very long time and I understand how it works that the hardy herbs come in you know early spring and then you get the bedding plant the perennials seasonal veg and probably I would say around end of July going into August some of the ⁓ early veg is going to be starting to come to an end some of the summer bedding might be looking a bit tired

And from that point on, you get gaps. you know, can't, for years I couldn't explain it. And now I call it the second herb season. And, you know, once again, herbs become extremely popular, versatile options for planting. Because people have gaps in the borders, gaps in containers, as you go into August and September.

and so many herbs are fully hardy if you plant them up sort of July, August they're going to reach a good size, a decent size by the time the cold weather arrives and you've got to remember that we always misr- or I think people misremember the seasons I certainly do, when I think of October I think about wearing a woolly hat outside it's really not you know September and October are really good growing months so if you can get some herbs

in the grounds of mid to late summer Herbs specifically for autumn I'm thinking thyme, rosemary, sages, oregano There's a really lovely variety called hot and spicy oregano I plant a fresh one every single late summer because I use so much of it during the winter And you know, we go into a period in colder weather where we use more herbs you know, we're looking for comfort food on chilly evenings

And as you go into that second herb season, the advice that I said a couple of minutes ago is just so important. It's not just important, it's vital. Make sure the herbs are free draining.

Roz (15:00)
So talking about herbs, and obviously a lot of our listeners are cut flower growers, and I grow a lot of herbs for exactly that reason. So, you know, things like we would use borage and sage and bay actually, and rosemary and basil. What are your top sort of five that you would grow if you were a cut flower grower? You would say, okay, herbs are lovely for cooking as well as, because of course we, then, oh, and mint, of course, is not exclusive.

what would be your recommendations, even more unusual ones, that they could grow for cutting.

Andy - Urban Herbs (15:34)
Well you've got lots of options and this is becoming increasingly popular. So many of our customers are buying to grow on and use the flowers or indeed foliage at like their daughter or their son's wedding for example. And straight away there I just qualified that a little bit because it's worth saying that actually even if you're not growing for flowers you know so many of the different herbs

foliage is absolutely excellent for cutting some more than others ⁓ now you mention mint but within the mint category you've got so many different varieties it's actually magical so varieties like berries and cream mint black currant mint lime mint

Those are ones that I always recommend because they're quite architectural. They've got these beautiful long stems that have quite a dark red colour. And the foliage is different on each of them. A really dark detailed foliage with a lovely aroma but it's the bright red stem for me that kind of sells it. And crucially they last really well after cutting. So you can have a big long stem just to kind of really fill out an arrangement.

and that red stem can be contrasted against so many different options. So even just within the Mint family you've got loads of options there.

Roz (17:07)
I love a mint, it's very prolific, it's great, love it.

Andy - Urban Herbs (17:11)
And if you wanted to go a little bit different as well, there's a beautiful variety called strawberry mint, which is a little bit different to the others I mentioned. It's actually in the spear mint family, but it's got strong strawberry aroma. And the flowers of strawberry mint are really quite surprising, delicate, beautiful kind of mauve colored flowers. And it's funny, isn't it? Because so often, I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't want to think of mint.

I don't often go straight to the idea of them flowering, you know, the benefits of mint flowering. But honestly, strawberry mint flowers, absolutely gorgeous. I'll have to post some to our socials actually tonight because we've got so many in flower right now and the bees are absolutely loving it.

While I'm talking about foliage, a couple of other varieties. The Cola plant, which is in the Artemisia family. ⁓ Cola flavoured foliage, but it's very feathery. And you can just cut that, especially this time of year, it regrows literally while you watch it. The Cola plant is a really, really cool option. But we've noticed a little bit of a trend. I don't know actually whether your listeners have mirrored this. Especially late summer.

and going into the autumn. Loads of people are buying herbs as of centrepieces for weddings or indeed cut foliage with a kind of woodland theme, an autumnal theme. So varieties like Purple Sage with its sort of dark, slightly sort of moody foliage which is really special. Kate always refers to Purple Sage as kind of an after dark plant. You know it's sort of a

a late night special plant and then you can also look at varieties like bronze fennel which again if you like aniseed it's just an absolutely stunning aroma rosemary stems as well to match that theme there's a variety that we grow called barbecue rosemary which is a variety of rosemary that's got a smoky flavor

And the really cool thing about BBQ rosemary for me is the stems are so long without getting too woody So you can clip a nice long stem and that in a vase as I've been talking about foliage there I probably talk about some flowers And what better place to start than what we used at our wedding? me and Kate got married I think I'm just trying to work out it was about 50 years ago now I'm joking It was... ooh

Roz (19:34)
Thank

wedding

anniversary today so you have to be you know we're all in wedding mode here. ⁓

Andy - Urban Herbs (19:50)
Is it?

It's almost 11 years to the day and it was a very very warm day and I've got to tell you Roz, actually two of varieties I just mentioned there, the lime mint and the strawberry mint actually went in the PIMS and that's the reason why nobody can remember any of the speeches I think.

Roz (20:04)
⁓ Okay.

Andy - Urban Herbs (20:09)
Now the, especially given that I was making a speech, most definitely. Now the florist that did the wedding for us, she knew about the herbs and she knew our story. Herbs played quite a prominent part.

Roz (20:09)
Good.

Andy - Urban Herbs (20:25)
and Blackcurrant Sage played a very prominent role so Blackcurrant Sage is in the Selvia family distinctive from a couple of perhaps well-known varieties of a variety called Hot Lips so slightly different to that but it's got this beautiful tiny little Selvia flower that is so bright it's almost neon and that went in all the buttonhole flowers but the aroma

is so just so terrific it's like if somebody's made you really strong Ribena that's the aroma that you get just from wafting past the blackcurrant sage flower

Other flowers, well what I'm into at the minute is the many different kinds of lavender because when you go down this rabbit hole you realise that every single variety of lavender has got a different kind of quality to it. So you can start off with English lavenders, very traditional varieties, Munstead, Hidcut. But you can actually go a bit beyond that because we now grow some varieties, one of my favourites is Lavender Rosea.

which has got the rose coloured flowers. Yeah, really, really subtle, but they've still got that lavender aroma. It's clearly identifiable as a lavender flower. And again, all the lavenders I'm mentioning here are incredibly hardy and easy to grow. With the Proviso, they need free draining conditions. know, if anyone's making notes about this, underline that. Free draining. Lavender really doesn't like sticking in water. Lavender Vera.

Roz (21:40)
Wow, yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (22:06)
is another option which I absolutely love and I love Lavender Vera for two reasons the foliage is really silver so and it does that magical thing that many herbs do that when the mercury starts to dip when it starts to get colder the foliage gets more silvery and I just think that's really special especially if you're cutting in the autumn and then it's got the traditional lavender flowers

nice dark blue flower.

We also really like to grow a variety called Lavender Edelweiss which produces the white flower. But within our shop this year as well we've introduced a new range which is a Beasy Blue, Beasy Blue Lavender, Beasy Pink Lavender and Beasy White. And they have proven to be really, really popular. The flower, it looks kind of similar to Munstead.

but they're just so incredibly hardy, they're very easy to grow and certainly the trial we did last year was terrific with them and the feedback we've had from customers this year has been unbelievable. So if you're growing herbs for flowers, cut flowers, definitely look at all those lavenders.

And then there's some perhaps more kind niche options out there. And it very much depends on what kind of a project you're doing. Because I recently saw on Instagram that somebody did a cut flower arrangement, a very, almost like a micro arrangement, using some different varieties of thyme. And there's a variety that we stock called orange thyme, which is orange scented thyme. It's got really strong orange flavor. And the flowers of orange thyme.

they come out on these little stems so they're kind of perfect for being cut and if you're doing a really kind of micro arrangement maybe like a buttonhole arrangement something I could see the orange thyme flower looking really beautiful as well

It's like trying to pick your children's favourite child. This is Roz. It's not straight forward.

Roz (24:17)
think it's true. think all the mint family is amazing. Very prolific. I'd certainly want to grow some more of those. I've written on my book, blackcurrant, lime and strawberry mint are definitely going to be on my list. Cola plant, yes, because it's feathery. So that would be great. Bronze fennel, we already grow. Purple sage, we already grow. Both brilliant. Hadn't thought about the range of lavenders. We do probably three or four, but there's certainly something there. Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (24:44)
And the interesting thing is that a few years ago we were talking to somebody that had a very small balcony garden. They wanted to put together a selection of lavenders. And from that conversation we created a collection within our shop called the Lavender Farm Collection, which is six kind of varieties of lavender. Six different varieties. And it's incredible how those six plants have got such different foliage. Such different aromas.

different growth habits even I know I'm going on about lavender a bit too much here actually but I should also give honourable mention to Lavender Dwarf Blue which is a low growing variety of with blue flowers, really attractive and if you want to go really traditional Lavender Provence I didn't do my French accent there and I think everyone will be glad for it but Lavender Provence the aroma

Roz (25:41)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (25:45)
the flowers it's such a beautiful variety if you want to cut and sort of hang and dry the flowers as well I'm trying to think whether I've missed any of my favourites the truth is is that there are so many different flowering varieties and I have missed one of my favourites because Blackcurrant Sage's cousin Pineapple Sage again in the Selvia family

But instead of having that sort of neon pink flower.

Pineapple Sage has got a bright red flower, it's quite a big flower and it comes upon a stem, perfect for cutting and I've got to say the actual foliage cuts really well also. was at a friend's wedding and they actually requested some of this and it looks so good in the vase, you know, with some foliage, simply because the flower stands out.

and sometimes I almost think we should let the bees be our guide because you know when I'm working outside you know kind of when the weather's hot like this I tend to try and start work at 4.30 5 o'clock you know before it gets hot and it's just me and the bees outside and it's funny how you just see them descend on certain varieties a variety that the bees absolutely love is HISSUP

Roz (26:52)
Yeah, we go. Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (27:17)
Have you grown hyssop for flowers? So you can get a hyssop that has blue flowers, pink flowers and white flowers and all three are fantastic for bees you know a friend was recently educating me on the world of bees and you know some flowers have more food for the bees to work on than others and the hyssop flowers are very very intense

you know, they're working away harvesting the pollen. So the bees love it, but I think that you will love it too. Because hyssops got a real dark blue flower. It's actually very old fashioned herb. I think I'm right in saying it was mentioned in the Bible. But it's certainly gone out of fashion, you know, in the last 50 years. But hyssops are a variety that I literally, I have to have in a raised bed and definitely at my allotment.

because it's such a good plant for pollination, know, just encouraging pollinators. But that would look terrific in an arrangement too.

Roz (28:27)
go on here, so I should be having a look.

Andy - Urban Herbs (28:31)
Has everyone

been busy writing these down, do think?

Roz (28:34)
Yes, if they aren't, if they haven't, can ask and I can provide the list because I have. And then obviously they can provide with your website at Herbs. Is urbanherbs.co.uk?

Andy - Urban Herbs (28:48)
Urban-Herbs.co.uk But what I would say is as a first port of call It's probably a good idea just to check out our socials So go onto our Instagram, which is just one word UrbanHerbsUK Because if you just scroll through our feed you'll probably see pictures of pretty much everything that I've just been talking about And if people have got questions then just far as a message, you know We are more than happy to talk herbs as you can probably tell

Roz (29:16)
Yeah, that's a good idea. Start on socials, have a look at the images and then move over to the website for sure. But since we last spoke, haven't you started a project about food in the front garden?

Andy - Urban Herbs (29:31)
Yes. Now, it's funny, Roz, because sometimes I get a rush of blood to the head. And this is one of those moments. So this started, I think, essentially about a couple of years ago. You know, there was like food shortages of fresh vegetables. There was stuff going on in Ukraine and where we live, it's a very, down to earth area. I always joke with people and say it's a very glamorous part of the world.

Roz (29:39)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (29:59)
so glamorous you might not have heard of it. Essentially it's the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution and it's still going on here to be fair but we're very close to the M5 motorway so it's a place with industrial heritage.

Roz (30:13)
You're in trouble aren't you? Where are you actually?

Andy - Urban Herbs (30:15)
So

⁓ just outside Birmingham, junction 2 of the M5 motorway and where we are there's a lot of people on down to earth incomes.

Roz (30:20)
Yep.

Andy - Urban Herbs (30:28)
and you know in our local budget supermarket they introduced rationing for vegetables so there was a sign saying you can only take one courgette or you can only take one bag of salad and it was around that time that actually my wife had fallen down the stairs and she broke her leg and I was having to do shopping for the first time in let's be honest about 10 years and I was walking around the supermarket like a space you know space somebody from another planet

I was looking at the prices and I could not believe how expensive the food was.

Roz (31:01)
Yes. ⁓

Andy - Urban Herbs (31:03)
And

I don't know, I got cross and I broke one of the golden rules of our profession, I picked my phone and I went on social media while I was angry and I looked into the camera and I just spoke my mind. I said it's unfair, I think, that people on lower incomes are having to make these difficult choices. It's heartbreaking for me, actually, the idea of somebody having to put back

you know, a bag of salad, it's that quiet thing that you never see that somebody just totting up how much they've got in the basket and they have to put back, inevitably, the fresh stuff because they can't afford it and so I stood in the front garden of the it's about 3 by 3 metre in the formal council house where we live I looked into the camera, went on Instagram and I said anyone can grow food and you can save money by doing so

And without really thinking I said I'm going to dig up my front garden and I'm going to prove, going to measure how much money I spend on this. And every time I make a harvest I'm going add it onto the spreadsheet. And I'm going to measure against budget supermarket prices how much I save in growing food in one year.

And it's fascinating because I think I'm fighting against a lot of forces, a lot of consumerism, because a lot of the comments were people saying, it can't be done, it can't be done. One of the comments that really stands out to me is somebody was saying, it's ridiculous. How can you possibly save money by growing potatoes when you can buy a huge bag of potatoes from Asda? And I said, by not growing potatoes. There's a golden rule.

Roz (32:46)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (32:50)
you grow expensive ingredients in small quantities quick turnaround ingredients so for example ⁓ salad I couldn't believe that those bags of salad wrapped in all that plastic was like £1.50 in the supermarket now if you buy pack of seeds you grow on your salad plant you can get a harvest pretty much every couple of days if you rotate your plant and

Roz (32:55)
that's exactly right.

Andy - Urban Herbs (33:20)
Over the course of the year I actually documented it, I put the video on YouTube and I was a little bit kind of taken aback when that video went viral because the reaction was a lot more than what I kind of meant it to be. But in a way I don't really care because I think if a couple of people hear that message and they get all the well-being benefits that we spoke about at the start of this episode and they save themselves some money they end up

effectively eating organic food. I appreciate that we're not going into the world of organic certification, but you're eating food that basically you've grown, that you're taking responsibility for, so you're not going to be spraying it.

feeling great for it, saving yourself money, I think that's just brilliant. And safe to say, off the back of that, it sounds a bit over dramatic, but my life has changed a little bit because I've started working with food banks locally here. So, working on little growing projects. My wife set up a non-profit, so she set up a CIC, going into primary schools and teaching the kids about food growing.

and that's entirely off the back of this original project because you know Roz some of the kids that Kate's been working with in inner city schools here in Birmingham I know it's a cliche but they literally have no idea where food comes from

Roz (34:49)
That's the problem.

Andy - Urban Herbs (34:50)
you know they don't have any green space and you know when you see some of the areas where they live it literally is a concrete jungle

And what I think is really cool is that these kids, know, some of whom have come from basically war zones, like we're working with kids like have come from Syria, Ukraine, when they start to work with the plants and start growing food, they change. Something just magical happens. They start to build in confidence. They start to...

it sounds a bit strange but almost take ownership of that patch of land because it's them that's growing

Roz (35:38)
Definitely. mean, if you read the Well-Guardened Mind by Sue Smith, it all talks about world wars and in the trenches. it highlights that actually, know, soldiers, they actually, I never really thought about it. They're there for quite a long time. And they're there through a season or through a year. They had patches of vegetables and patches of plants. And actually it was about mental health and wellbeing and growing their own things in an actual war zone, in a war zone. So it's kind of like,

Unbelievable, but it's an interesting book if anybody wants to read The World Garden Mine and that's it's proof of it.

Andy - Urban Herbs (36:14)
And I think increasingly, you know, my role has become trying to be that bridge between worlds. know, right at the beginning I said about how Kate is sort of my non-industry voice, if you like. My bridge. But I think there's more of that needed because there's so many people out there who love to grow things or who are curious about growing things. But sometimes the industry language and the root of education into the industry.

Roz (36:28)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (36:45)
can be very expensive and it can be quite exclusive and you let's just be clear on this the kids that we've been working with they're not doing RHS level 1 level 2 level 3

Roz (37:02)
No, they're not.

Andy - Urban Herbs (37:03)
but they know a lot about growing them. They're into their fourth year of doing this. So essentially, there was a sort of eco council which Kate has sort of taken on and she's done put them into a growing space. And as I say, the change in them is just absolutely terrific. I should say, can you possibly guess of all the plants that we grow, can you guess which is the favorite plant of those kids?

Enjoy harvesting

It's an easy question, Roz. We only grow about 150 varieties.

Roz (37:35)
So no.

with an easy question. ⁓ Probably something that grows really, really prolific and probably something that grows really fast. So I'm trying to think one of the myths would probably be very favourable and it smells amazing.

Andy - Urban Herbs (37:52)
I chocolate mint, I would say, probably was a very, very close second place. They got very...

Roz (37:56)
Yeah, chocolate,

cola, cola probably is the other one.

Andy - Urban Herbs (37:59)
So it's actually, you know, the Alpine Strawberry, the Fregario Vesca.

I have never seen kids so excited about checking under leaves to find those tiny little strawberry fruits. They are... It's lovely to watch actually and it's great to all the hard work that Kate's put in.

Roz (38:12)
you

Yes.

Okay, yeah, no, I thought they'd go cola or mint, but yeah, anything that, yeah, but anything that gets them outside and growing has got to be the right thing. So well done, I'd say on that one. Well done indeed.

Andy - Urban Herbs (38:32)
And it just goes to show that so many good things can come from posting on Instagram while feeling angry about social injustice. There you go.

Roz (38:38)
Yes. ⁓

dear, I know. I know. I think we've got to be quite brave. I'm quite brave about the environment and I'm very brave about not using floral foam. And I'm not really, really, I can't imagine why people still do. We didn't use it in Victorian times. I'm not sure why we're using it now. And sort of plastic and so on. I think that goes back to, I did a degree in environmental science when nobody really talked about the environment. was a long time ago, I can tell you.

But, and so I was sort of a little bit ahead of my time then, it's come back round again now, but we've been talking about the same things for 40 years. So why we're still using floral form, but don't get me on that one because that's my crusade. We've all got to have one. And that's definitely mine. Why are we ruining our environment with a product that will never degrade in the environment ever, ever, ever in anybody's lifetimes. I think it takes 375 years to even begin to. So.

Yeah, don't get me on that one because you'll get me on my... But I think it's a useful platform to say some things that people aren't aware of. But yeah, Andy, what's next?

Andy - Urban Herbs (39:47)
It's

really good question, Roz. As a business, we've kind of expanded this year. And it's really important to say this, that actually, urban herbs as people know it now was never really supposed to exist. You know, we traveled around for 10 years doing markets and food festivals. And it was only because of COVID that we had to learn how to sell online, how to send plants in the post.

and now we've got a team of people packing orders and I should say actually a massive shout out to the team of ladies who help us pack the orders. They're the kind of unsung heroes actually and again they had no ⁓ horticultural experience, interest, enthusiasm before working with us and now every single one them has got a little spray can and they missed.

the soil of each pot before it goes in the box and they love it. mean, let's be honest, they've all got very nice herb gardens now, courtesy of Urban Herbs. ⁓ But I guess, you said what's next? Well, it's about expanding but not in the traditional sense. Because me and Kate are absolutely adamant that what we want to do is almost

Roz (40:55)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (41:15)
We've got this niche, these very unusual plants that I've been talking about. But we want it to even more niche. We want to make our website and our social channels a destination for people who want to, excuse the pun, but like dig a bit deeper, you know? That when we set out to build our online shop, I wrote on a piece of paper that I would like to have

you know that village shop feel to it so it's not like Amazon, it's not eBay, it's not transactional and it's this move away from adversarial commerce so adversarial commerce is the idea that you know I'm standing on one side of the market store, you're standing on the other side and I'm basically trying to get one over on you and you're haggling with me to try and get a deal

And what we're trying to do is we're trying to expand what we do while kind of further reducing that adversarial commerce element. What do I mean by that? Well, the ladies that I just mentioned, wherever possible, if there's a gap in the box, they like to add an extra plant for free.

If there isn't any gaps in the box, they put a couple of packets of seeds in there. it's... Someone described it recently as a very good marketing tactic. I'm sure it is, but I don't actually see it like that, because for me it's about the energy of it. That it's about going, somebody has been good enough to give us their custom, and in return, we're gonna give them something extra.

Roz (42:54)
Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (43:00)
It's not transactional, there's nothing expected in return, you know, there you go, that's just nice for you, something you didn't expect. The girls at the of the orders, refer to them as present, and that's how they see it, you know, it's a present.

Roz (43:16)
We do a lot of content. We write lots of content. We write eBooks. We do a podcast, which is obviously free. We do lots of free online groups, which is free. And it's all about, I mean, we're a content provider in a way, and we're providing education through content. And I would hate people to see us as transactional. Exactly that.

Andy - Urban Herbs (43:38)
No, you are. it's interesting because so many people, and in fact maybe somebody listening to this who is an existing customer of Urban Herbs, I'm sure, will have mentioned to us in passing what you do, You know? You know, multiple people will have mentioned it. From the point of view of, you you are that go-to destination for that knowledge. So, yeah, I think...

Roz (43:53)
⁓ sweet. Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (44:08)
From our point of view, that's where we're going. We want to really double down on that content, on that educational side of things. And making things, it's a bit of a buzzword to be honest, and I'm nervous about using buzzwords, but making what we do accessible.

Roz (44:28)
Yeah, to everyone.

Andy - Urban Herbs (44:29)
So yeah, not just the growing side of things, like from a sort of like a retail point of view, but both me and Kate, one of our big passions is the fact that, you know, we're increasingly aware of our age in a both a well, we're aware. Trust me, don't get me wrong, at the end of a week like this, I feel every

Roz (44:47)
cheeking compared to me.

Andy - Urban Herbs (44:58)
every bit of mileage that I've done.

but we're also aware on a kind of an industry, a wider level.

that when you go into the floral marquee at these big flower shows the next kind of youngest grower to me is like fifty

Roz (45:17)
Yeah, I know, it's not good.

Andy - Urban Herbs (45:19)
above that is 60 and I think the reason why that's the case is the soft skills, the knowledge and whether you like it or not traditionally the model within my own industry my own little sector is that somebody gets good at what they're doing and then they pull the ladder up behind

and me and Kate have kind of just had a chat and we're like yeah that's not going to anymore. Obviously people reach out and it's funny people reach out all the time you know in March and April and we'll get a message where they say I really like the idea of starting a business you know growing and selling plants so could you please provide me with your turnover the best place to do this the best place to do this how you do this how you do that and I just can't you know I'm doing 120 hours a week some weeks

But if somebody reaches out to us in September, October, November, we're always happy to talk through the ideas, because it's the best job in the world. I really do think it is. I'm actually mentoring a couple of younger people at the moment as they're developing their own horticultural businesses. And to that end, about two years ago, this was another one of my impulse things.

Kate was recovering, she'd had major surgery and we both had an idea and that was to start a podcast but a podcast kind of with a difference.

So traditionally our industry is very sort of antiques roadshow, it's quite classical. Sort of think Chelsea flower show, that kind of thing. And we set out to kind of just basically just be a couple that talk about growing things. Be a little bit irreverent with it. Sometimes we're very irreverent and apologies for those that we've lost along the way, but it is very honest.

Roz (46:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (47:16)
So we started it's the growing up podcast and it's growing up in so many different ways and the reason why I mentioned that at this point is that one of the key parts of that podcast is offering Insights into like behind the scenes, but also practical advice for people who want to start a horticultural business you know a lot of people that want to start a horticultural business are women and Kate

Roz (47:44)
Yes.

Andy - Urban Herbs (47:46)
speaks very very well and honestly on her experience as a woman in horticulture which is very very different to mine my experience working horticulture

She has some epic rants. Mainly about when blokes step in and start pushing Danish trolleys for her, assuming that she can't manage it. It served her right really because when we were at Gardeners World Live a couple of weeks ago, no one was offering to help her at all when she was pushing a trolley up the hill.

Yeah, yeah. So, ⁓ yeah, we've had a lot of fun with it.

Roz (48:30)
Yeah. And to be truthful, running a podcast is not easy. It's not. There are so many people who start a podcast and then give up. You see it every day, don't you? You always see it every day because it takes consistency, hard work. You've to your guests, you've got to edit it. And it's a free resource and you're doing it because you want to do it. And I meet some really, really interesting people. But yeah, it's not easy running a podcast. Running a business is not easy.

Andy - Urban Herbs (48:57)
I'll tell you the truth, Roz. And we always say this and it sounds like, you know, I'm fibbing.

We always joke and say that when we sit down and record the podcast, when it's just the two of us, and obviously you're right, when there's a guest, it's a lot more involved.

But when it's just the two of us chatting, it's honestly so nice just to sit down and just talk. I mean, some of our episodes from the months of sort of April and May, if they come across as incoherent, that's because the two people hosting it are pretty much incoherent due to tiredness. But then again, maybe that's part of the story. Maybe. Because when I go onto Instagram,

Roz (49:42)
Yeah, it's reality.

Andy - Urban Herbs (49:46)
I can sort of hold myself together for 30 seconds in a reel.

Roz (49:50)
Easy peasy, yeah.

Andy - Urban Herbs (49:51)
But when you do a podcast, know, especially when we've been recording them, you know, at the end of a very, very long week and we're a bit fed up and we're cold or we're drenched or we're sunburned, you know, fill in the blank.

think that's part of story as well. So I think when those people reach out and they say, I really want to start a business doing this, that and the other, I think they need to hear those episodes as well.

Roz (50:20)
It's about reality. It's funny, like these students that we call ducklings, God, I hope they don't listen to this. know, just university students, and they came along for the first time, they're based in Milton Keynes, they don't live in a rural environment, and they come to a rural environment and they love it. And they said to me, at the end of the first day, this isn't really work, is it? And they said, we feel a bit guilty because we're having a really nice time. And then they can be overheard saying, what's been your favourite day since you joined?

What's your favourite, Dan? I'm thinking these are people who have never done horticulture now, never known a plant from a weed we were training in the beginning. And it's, yeah, and it's the reality and they love it. It is the best profession in the world, but it's hard work. You've got to be prepared for hard work.

Andy - Urban Herbs (51:05)
And it's very, I think, counter to modern life in that, you know, your day is so dictated by overheads, you know, by what the weather's doing.

Roz (51:11)
Yeah.

Yep.

Andy - Urban Herbs (51:19)
It's funny because I'll let you in on secret when Kate first started to like manage Urban Herbs In January she produced a spreadsheet and it was a week by week spreadsheet And it was which varieties were going to have ready each week

Roz (51:35)
Hehehe.

Right?

Andy - Urban Herbs (51:40)
And we actually, we joked about this a couple of weeks ago. So this is 18 months on. And Kate turned around to me and said, what was I thinking? You know? She said, when you and some of the guys that work with you do in the production side of things, she said, when I gave you that spreadsheet, she went, did you just laugh your heads off? And I said, well, no, because actually it's really good to have that, it's good to have a plan. But what's written on that piece of paper for

zero resemblance to the availability that we were able to put out each week.

Roz (52:13)
Yeah, we're the same. We're absolutely the same. We can't plan to a week. There's no way. We've got days in June. How can you plan that?

Andy - Urban Herbs (52:20)
This is.

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible and likewise, you know with the herbs like because we put We had all that warm weather over the last two or three weeks You know herbs are growing so incredibly quickly they put in on that extra growth and You know, I think about half an hour ago. I said to listeners, you know, if you take one thing away from this Write down about free draining conditions but the other thing if you're

Right, get your pens out guys, this is really important. Don't be afraid to prune back your herbs. Because when we have warm weather like this, the plants can get leggy so quickly. And don't be afraid to give it, you know, a couple of Chelsea chops as it were. So when I say cut them back, just bunch the plants together and cut the top third on a fairly regular basis. I mean, to be fair, me and Kate at the minute, we're spending most of our time.

I've got to tell you Roz, that sounds like I'm moaning that's the best job ever that is. You put a podcast in, you look up and in our case, we've probably got say the low level time plans.

there's maybe like about thousand of a variety something like that, twelve hundred of a variety and you when you look at it and go right that's my morning I'm just going to cut back twelve hundred then the next twelve hundred and when you're coming for lunch your hands your face it's just covered in the aroma of time or leaven time and it's pretty cool

Roz (53:59)
Exactly so. Like I say, best job in the world. Best job in the world. So yeah, it really is. I'm gonna try and encourage more and more people to do it. So Andy, thanks for coming over today. I've got my list. I shall be coming back to you with my list ⁓ to add to, I would grow more and more to be honest, as cut flower foliage for sure. I always tell people with foliage, because people were saying about growing foliage. I know obviously growing things like Katynus and Croninbark and Pittosporum takes two or three years before you can cut anything.

Andy - Urban Herbs (54:03)
It really is.

Roz (54:28)
And they say, what I'm going to do now? Well, what you're going to do now is you're going to get some herbs because that will grow prolifically and that will fill your gap, which you've got right now. And I would always say that. So I've been saying that for years and years and I will carry on saying that. So always a pleasure to talk to you, Urban Herbs. Do go over and support Andy, follow him on Instagram, go and have a look at his website. Anybody who wants the list of herbs, obviously replay, or we can provide the list to you. Just DM me and I'll let you have it.

Not a problem. Email me. Do loads of ways to contact me and loads of ways to contact Andy as well. we will see. Hopefully we won't leave another 18 months, Andy.

Andy - Urban Herbs (55:07)
No, hopefully not, and who knows ⁓ how much more of my garden I'll have dug up on a whim for food growing at that point. Roz, before I go, I've had another rush of blood to the head. Shall I offer all of your listeners an exclusive discount in our Urban Herb Shop? Let's do that. I'll send you a discount code and you can put it in the description and it's a little present from us to all of your listeners and, you know, I hope you've enjoyed it and thank you so much for listening, guys.

Roz (55:13)
Yeah, exactly.

yes please.

Thank very much, Andy. It's been lovely to see you again.