History of Education Society UK Podcast

3_03 Laura Newman - Bodies of Knowledge: Historians, Health, and Education

May 10, 2023 History of Education Society UK Season 3 Episode 3
3_03 Laura Newman - Bodies of Knowledge: Historians, Health, and Education
History of Education Society UK Podcast
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History of Education Society UK Podcast
3_03 Laura Newman - Bodies of Knowledge: Historians, Health, and Education
May 10, 2023 Season 3 Episode 3
History of Education Society UK

To accompany the 50th Anniversary special edition of the History of Education Journal, we spoke to some of the contributors.  These podcasts focus on two of the themes in the journal:
Geographical historiographies of education and
Thematic intersections with the history of education.
Episode 3 - Intersections: Histories of Medicine and Health

In this episode, Laura Newman, Postdoctoral research associate at Kings College, University of London, engages the listener with a fascinating tour of themes in the history of medicine and health and how these intersect, diverge and enrich possibilities for the history of education.  You can find out more in her article  Bodies of Knowledge: Historians, Health, and Education.
Themes include gender and sexuality, the hidden curriculum, practitioner historians, cheese and the postal service!
Recorded in conversation with Michael Donnay in 2022 and produced by Syeda Ali, May 2023.

Show Notes Transcript

To accompany the 50th Anniversary special edition of the History of Education Journal, we spoke to some of the contributors.  These podcasts focus on two of the themes in the journal:
Geographical historiographies of education and
Thematic intersections with the history of education.
Episode 3 - Intersections: Histories of Medicine and Health

In this episode, Laura Newman, Postdoctoral research associate at Kings College, University of London, engages the listener with a fascinating tour of themes in the history of medicine and health and how these intersect, diverge and enrich possibilities for the history of education.  You can find out more in her article  Bodies of Knowledge: Historians, Health, and Education.
Themes include gender and sexuality, the hidden curriculum, practitioner historians, cheese and the postal service!
Recorded in conversation with Michael Donnay in 2022 and produced by Syeda Ali, May 2023.

MD  00:06

This is passing notes from the History of Education Society. 


Syeda Ali  00:09

In the third episode of a series of four to accompany the May special edition of the history of education journal, Michael Donnay speaks to Lauren Newman about her article, Bodies of Knowledge, Historians Health and Education. I'll hand you back to Michael for the podcast.


MD  00:31

Welcome, Laura, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk with you. Can you give us a brief overview of the article that you've written for this special issue? I know it covers sort of a very wide swath of historiography. So I would love to know, as you were writing it, how you sort of decided what would be the focus of the piece? 

LM 01:00 Yeah, that's great question. So kind of how I define or position myself within a see myself as sitting on the boundary. And it's kind of struggling at various points in my career, history of medicine or histories of health and medicine, and histories of education or histories of learning. And so kind of throughout my career, I've sort of like oscillated between the two. So my how I kind of decided on a structure for the article is a lot of it kind of can be seen as like, I start with, I think, probably the most obvious entry point for thinking about how these two historiographies intersect. And then it kind of kind of goes on to perhaps more like slightly unconventional avenues. And they used to thinking about these two kind of disciplines.  

So I guess a particular challenge I had, with this article was balancing the stuff, I felt like I knew quite well, and the stuff that I'd done a lot in my PhD research. So my PhD research, for example, I did a lot of work on the histories and medical education, so medical schools and stuff, and also stuff on the adult education movement as well. But I'll get to that. And that kind of history of the histories of institutional medical learning is probably the most I feel like natural, obvious contact zone, we can think about the one that's probably produced the most in terms of like volume of research, as well. But then I had to kind of think about my familiarity as well think about, like stuff I'd worked on more recently.  

So with my first postdoctoral role, I worked a lot on childhood education, for example. So I knew I wanted stuff down histories of childhood health, and specifically with regards to like schooling and the spaces of schooling, but then I kind of knew that for the ask, I'd have to address like aspects I wasn't like super familiar with so particularly regards to like race and like the post-war period, like, I'm not a historian of race, and I'm very much a historian who's not really comfortable going past 1945. Anything after ...  kind of tends to make me sweat a bit.  Yeah, essentially, it's kind of it focuses, firstly, on medical education, then looks at childhood health and the development of that idea in schooling. And then the last section looks more kind of social histories of lighting and different publics and probably moves farther away from medicine and warranty histories of health and the body, and kind of less obvious, like avenues for thinking about, like the role that education and learning plays in historical lives and the lifecycle. 


MD  03:19

Well, I would love to jump into some of those examples. But maybe before we get there, we could talk a little bit more about how you see the relationship between the history of education and the history of medicine. And I think your article does a really good job of sort of talking about both where they connect and where there might still be distance between those two fields. So I was wondering, maybe we could talk a little bit first about the overlaps? Where do you see the history of education and those histories of health and medicine overlapping in productive ways? 


LM  03:47

Yeah, no, absolutely. So one of the kind of interesting parallels between histories of education history as medicine is that they both really started out as he's very practitioner load histories, and these who kind of tended to produce, you know, this kind of celebratory account, so that change and progress and like, often tended to produce these institutional histories. So lots of time history as medical education kind of tended to be quite these kind of quite descriptive pieces, charting, you know, the rise of a particular medical school and the triumph of scientific medicine and stuff like that. Whereas one of the things I talk about in the article is more recently, this kind of pivot away from those kinds of accounts of historical education, which might still be focused on the institution because that's like, a useful organising structure for history, right, that now looks more towards this idea of like the student experience and the ways in which medical practitioners, you know, kind of consume.  

There's both like a formal and informal curriculum to the medical school. So I'm thinking here particularly of work by Keir Waddington, and Laura Kelly, for example, who talk about ... both the content of what the students were learning, which is obviously very important for if you're a historian of medicine, but also looking more or more towards aspects of like sociability and socialisation in the university. So thinking about in particular, masculinity has proved to be like a really interesting topic in this regard, and thinking about, you know, how, you know, the medical lecture theatre, and was not the only venue for learning how to be a doctor, it was obviously, you know, played a part in the sports field or the pub. So, I think that's, you know, I think there's a sense in which that's quite an old avenue of inquiry for histories of  medicine histories of education, but it's, it's going into interesting new directions, you know, what it was like to actually be a medical student? 

Are there areas where I can see it overlapping is, uh, yeah, I've kind of put a lot of thought into thinking about this. Kind of the ways in which, like, the two historiographies have, like kind of gone into like, similar directions. And I think that's both obviously, because, you know, they do often like social history and kind of, you know, various, similar turn. So, we're just interested in hearing you talk a bit about the overlaps, and where you might see some distance between history of medicine and history of education. And particularly, I noticed at the end of the article, you highlight these three ideas of agency literacy and voice is interesting. 

I was listening to a podcast, one of the earlier podcasts on this, on this series, and it was a Heather Ellis and, Gary McCulloch, talking about the cultural history of education series that they did with Bloomsbury. 

And like Heather was talking about, you know, this idea of like, when you're an author of this kind of stuff you very much like, you know, you are you have your very, very defined comfort zone. And I definitely feel that. So I guess one of the ways I approach this was thinking about, like, how my own research has resulted from these kind of contact zones. And and I don't think there was an intentionality to the way I did that.  One of the ways in which this article was useful writing, it was useful for like articulating the ways in which I think my research and the research of others as well particularly has kind of, you know, come about from this cross fertilisation, and I think a lot of this really is to do about is to do with histories of knowledge, particularly histories of reading. So when I was kind of thinking of examples, for the last section of the article was thinking about, you know, the kind of different publics who were recipients of medical knowledge in the past, and thinking about the ways in which they learn. And I've been useful kind of knowledge transmission, thinking about the work of people like Claire Jones, who in her recent work on contraception has talked a lot about how trade catalogues for contraceptives like condoms, kind of, you know, created these, like these kind of micro cultures of like learning about sex, and how then that related back to the work that Jonathan Rose did in his intellectual lives of the British working classes.  And I came across an article he wrote for the history education journal in 2007, which is titled The history of education is the history of reading. 

So I think this is actually like a really a kind of productive region where histories of medicine and histories education can meet. And again, I think you see that the work of Claire Jones as well, but in others, too, but then I and I kind of cite examples such as Rima D Apple, who works on the American case, the North American case, who talks a lot about citing the idea of the development of the idea of scientific motherhood and like advice manuals.  But then I guess there's the issue there is if you do take your you do take such an expansionist view of the history of education as the history of reading. So like reading any kind of text, there is this issue of disciplinary overextension, which is something I grappled with a bit in the article thinking about, you know, how do we set limits as to what the history of education is, as well. And I think that that's something interesting to kind of play around with as well. 


MD  08:50

Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really excellent lead into my next question, which is exactly about those kinds of definitions, and how expansive of an idea of education and of health are you taking in this particular article. And I think that that quote about that idea, that sort of all reading is like education, like education is incredibly expansive, in one way just helps re shape what we can be thinking about for education. But I think, exactly to your point, it also makes it this sort of huge, vast everythingness, that is hard to put into a discipline. But I think the the question in there is, and you alluded to it a bit in that last answer, so maybe just expanding a bit on how different definitions of education of medicine of health can help scholars think differently about those ideas, like what is it about definitions that helps frame interesting questions or more productive avenues of research in this area? 


LM  09:42

Yeah. So that's a very good question. And I guess one of the issues that kind of grappled with is this idea of like, how pragmatic should I or other practitioners of the history of education be when thinking about you know, what should be included in the history of education and like, how conceptually pluralistic as a field, we should be right or how conceptually pluralistic we should be as a field.  So I know Gary McCulloch has written a lot about this. So I found that his work really useful for thinking about how I could approach this and kind of frame these kinds of disciplinary boundaries. And a specifically him and Tom Woodin's article on the social histories of learners and learnings, which I think, again, as I say, in this kind of process of authorship of this article has helped me sort of think about be more reflective of who I am as a scholar, because I think there's a tendency to which for me, to a degree, I sort of slipped unexpectedly into the history of education. 

In 2015, Heather Ellis organise a special conference on histories of science, technology, and medicine and education. And I kind of went there and kind of, you know, found a very welcomed kind of disciplinary home that informs my scholarship to a large extent, but you know, it's been very a bit of a weird jigsaw, like, you know, who I am as a scholar. It's formed over like many years now. Right.  And so like, my approach has been to take a very expansive view of what counts as education. But I think this definition that's like definitely ... open to criticism, because it's like, you know, instructions ... And didacticism can be seen kind of everywhere in history. And you know, how do you define what is a instance of someone educated someone else like to kind of like, use it as like, do you use like a speech act? Do you have to use texts, etc. So that is,  so I think, you know, this kind of very expansionist approach is reflected in the kind of new cultural history of education series that I mentioned earlier in the podcast. 

And I think there's something similar is happening in the field of the history of medicine, where the tendency now seems to be kind of not using a phrase or not using the term history of medicine so much, but using the term kind of histories of health and medicine, which is very important. And this idea of health is something that kind of diverts us away from practitioner led or practitioner centric histories, and not just considering the therapeutic process, you know, not just considering the doctor patient encounter, stuff like that, but more kind of holistically understanding health in the light in the lifecycle, which I think draws a lot, again, from the histories of the body, which is, I think, another area discussed in the article where there's a very well, I feel you're there's been a kind of mutual influence on histories of education histories and medicine, with this idea of like, looking at embodiment, and thinking more about using embodiment and bodily history to kind of get at these unknown actors, right, that usually, we can't find in the documentary evidence super well.  

So my article, like, so I sort of carved up the domain, as I mentioned, in these ways, which I think I kind of went from the most obvious, which is like, literally, like histories of what medical students learn to kind of thinking more and more about, you know, this idea of education as something that's much more diffuse and much more ephemeral. But I think the first few sections are very easy because they focus on institutional spaces of learning and caring. So at the medical school, and like the primary and secondary school, whereas Law Section, which uses this very kind of generous conception of what the history of education could be, which really is more of the history of learners and learning, I'd say, then education, the problem with places like this is we're not dealing with conventional sources. We're dealing with things like soap adverts, and you know, there's a question of like, how you read, like, kind of those kind of sources as well. Also, the actors we're dealing with are people who would necessarily consider themselves explicit, like educationist a lot of the time, or even a students, you know. So I think in that way, it's much more elusive and ephemeral. And in that way, like much more contestable and yeah, I'm not sure I have the answer to your question, because it's a tricky one. Philosophically, speaking, ontologically speaking,


MD  14:05

 I mean, it definitely hearing you talk about that suggests that definitions remain the sort of really essential thing, if for no other reason than they set us off in those directions, where you're asking those really interesting questions like, how do you ... a source about history of education or history of health? Which I would love to have a deeper conversation at some point? Because I imagined that was like, a very interesting question for the person who had to do that for the first time. So I think, going a little bit away from the sort of bigger disciplinary questions and a little bit more into the specifics. One of the things I really appreciated about your article was you drew on a bunch of different examples of these sort of these histories intersecting with other interesting questions, whether it's gender with nursing or indigenous experiences in Canadian boarding schools. And I was wondering if you could sort of take one of those examples and talk us through in a bit of detail, the sort of either the scholarship you found most interesting, or how you thought about those intersections,  between those other fields like indigenous history or gender history with the sort of health medicine and education that that piece focuses on. 


LM  15:08

Yeah, so I think I'll probably stick with the example I'm most comfortable with, which is probably nursing. So this is something I've dabbled in. And it kind of reveals my prejudices know that I didn't enjoy reading about Canadian history, especially histories of Canadian childhoods, which, you know, one of the things I think I've taken away, like most from this experiences, just reading this kind of the, the scholarship has been around for like decades now. And it's just just very good, essentially, and very provocative. But yeah, I'll stick with nursing.  One thing I talked about in the article, and I think it might be a bit kooky and out there, it's definitely the part of the article I'm most nervous about is, is discussing this idea of expanding what we think what we think of as the gendered curriculum of nursing, which is something that historians of nursing have discussed, like extensively. So they've discussed a lot, they looked a lot at the content of nursing curricula, and also like the kind of kind of broad like, kind of discursive elements of like what it was to be honest in this period. So looking at, like the politics for parents, for example, in nursing, interesting stuff about nursing uniforms and so on, and how this kind of general discourse contributed to this idea of the ideal nurse who didn't compromise her womanhood by kind of choosing this career, an area that I'd love to see developed.  And I highlight in the article. 

And this literally just emerges from I used to as an MA student, I worked at the front side to go Museum and I created this exhibition, which partly looked at the sexualization of Florence nice ago, incorporated some weird stuff like Japanese comic books about Florence Nightingale, in which were, some of them were very, you know, X rated, no, probably, that you'd probably get kicked off Spotify of me discussing it. And so and I remember coming across something else, like while I was doing the research for during my MA, looking at, you know, rules for nursing students about, you know, nurses cannot kind of, they have to stay in the dorms, they can't like see the medical students and the doctors. So I think something I'd really love to see, and I'm probably just, this is pulling me get on my soapbox here. And it's one of those things where like, I know, I'm not going to do this research, but I think it'd be a really cool project for someone to do, which is look at the sexual politics between doctors and nurses and a different way. So particularly, I highlight any article recent work done by historians on the doctor, nurse, kind of the romantic trope of the doctor nurse relationship, and like Mills and Boons novels and stuff like that. And when I was researching this article, this I, I found a few scattered references to, you know, interpersonal relationships between doctors and nurses like romantic nature, and so on.  And this idea of, you know, nursing schools trying to limit improper contact. But what I find interesting is like thinking about the politics of kind of metoo, and how that's how that's playing out in the field of contemporary nursing literature, you know, this realisation that, you know, nurses do face, you know, quite regularly, like forms of sexual harassment from male kind of their male colleagues, but also patients and so on, don't kind of necessitates historians to take a further look at how the gendered curriculum of nursing over time may have implicitly kind of, you know, featured elements of kind of sexual abuse, and kind of murky and concern and kind of non concern as well in their relationship with their male colleagues. 

And I think in this way, we could really interestingly, build on the work of masculinity and medical education, which is saying, as I mentioned, Laura Kelly and Keir Waddington sort of talked about a bit as well. So I think by thinking about this, we could, there could be like a really interesting contribution to, to what we think of when we think of nursing education. And I think this is an area where histories of medicine can like take note from historians of education and of childhood in particular, who is starting to grapple with the ways in which institutional sexual abuse can almost be seen as like a hidden curriculum of the body. These differential power relationships were kind of reinforced through these like non consensual sex acts and things like that. So yeah, that that's it. I think, like the best part of these articles is getting to do things like that where you're like, This is a fascinating thing, that I will not research but that someone else desperately needs to being able to point that at people and being like, Please someone do a PhD about this. Yeah, it's interesting because I'm still an early career academic even though I'm getting a bit old. So it's kind of like a middle aged early career academic almost, as I'm getting old. Like, you know, like, it's been four and a bit years now since I got my PhD, but it is really interesting. I never used to understand why these academics used to be like, Oh, I really want someone to do a PhD on that and I think a part of me once thought Why don't you do that research yourself?  But like, as I'm kind of getting on in my career, I am increasingly being like, awesome, I should do a PhD on that. That'd be really cool. And I think this is definitely one of the areas where like, I want to highlight in the article, like if I can get like one MA students to like read it and do like, like a bit of work on it. I think that'd be really cool. Yeah, that'd be fantastic.


MD  20:23

And I think that is actually also a great lead in to sort of my last question about the article itself, which is, just as you've been doing this, you've talked a lot about the sort of discoveries of the interesting things that the process of writing the article has led you to. And I'm wondering if there's sort of one of those takeaways, whether it's a particular lens, or a framing of research question, that you think would be especially useful for other historians of education, who might not be working in the health and medicine area, but who, you know, could benefit from one of those perspectives? 


LM  20:51

Yeah, I mean, this is a question that I wish I had more time to think about or like, had more than an interesting answer. Because I had to be quite selective in how I approach the article, I feel like there's inevitably going to be stuff I missed out on. So for me, the most helpful thing. And I, as I mentioned, this process of like writing this article has really been about like articulating and like thinking kind of more definitively about like, how I approach doing history, and something I would kind of encourage are kind of two elements, actually. So one would be this idea of reading cultures. So he talks a lot about this idea of literacies, across histories of education and of medicine. And I know, this is something that I know quite a lot of my colleagues in the history of education write about particularly thinking of Katherine Sloan's work on juvenile periodical cultures. And that ties in really well with some of the stuff I mentioned with regards to, you know, how historians of medicine, particularly Claire Jones, and Jonathan Rose  have, even though it's not history of education, per se, have approached this idea of like, not how knowledge about sex circulated, you know, amongst the working working classes and stuff like that, I think this is your reading coaches is interesting, because I think I've been guilty in the past of thinking about reading as like quite passive art or have limited what I thought of as like a proper educational tech to quite narrow set of source materials like school textbook.  And I think here this, there's an interesting avenue to explore this idea about the intersection of consumer cultures and reading cultures, which I think if we think about medicine, you know, think about the wellness industry, which is quite an anachronistic term, but something like the wellness industry has existed now for like, you know, since the 18th century, at least, you know, if we're thinking about consumer culture, and reading culture, thinking about, you know, looking at looking beyond the domains of Orthodox medicine and thinking particularly about how alternative medicine, how people kind of consumed knowledge about health and their bodies, you know, through through their participation in capitalist culture in particular, I think that's something that can be really interesting. The other thing I would say, and this is kind of ... ties back to what I said earlier, when I talked about how I do discuss Canadian, the Canadian experience, particularly residential school experience in the article, but it's something I didn't want to speak on it, because it's definitely something I'm quite far away from. 

And one of the weaknesses of the article I'm very cognizant of is it does reflect my expertise in that I it's very British centric, and I think it's quite white. And I think that's definitely a very valid criticism, you could level it out, I tried to redress that balance as best I could. But you know, I don't I think probably not as successfully as I would have liked.  So i think, you know, this is this should not be the be all and end all of this discussion, right. But somewhat, because I've really drawn a lot from from histories of Canadian kind of education and schooling is Mona Gleason's discussion of the "Agency Trap", which I think is is a really, really wonderful article, because history is a medicine to a much more very, very interested, as you might imagine, that happens since you know, the 1980s, where this whole idea of the social history of medicine kind of does properly emerged with the works of like Roy Porter, who talked about this idea of research agenda into the everyman set, you know, had been very interested in kind of capturing the agency of like historically marginalised actors, and I mean, in particular historians of medicine and histories of education, which I think this is probably best phrases an answer to your earlier question, so sorry, I'm just getting around to it now is this idea that one of the things we very much share is like a preoccupation with institutionalisation? 

And how like logics of certain ...  thought systems or value systems like eugenics were like inscribed on bodies in these like institutional settings, but also like resisted in certain ways.  And when ... the agency trap comes into here is this idea of like, why do we prioritise what the author talks about in this article is why do we ask historians particularly to talk about historians of childhood and youth prioritise, looking for and trying to locate histories of resistance and emancipation, when it's kind of unclear as to whether we as historians are the best, like translators of what resistance or emancipation would look like, for certain historical actors, and the ways in which that shut out other lines of inquiry from us, it really did change the way I the somewhat naive way in which like, you know, as a historian of medicine and of education, I've been like, well, I'm giving a voice to the voiceless, right? Like and that and that, and that being like, and I'm going to show you how these people were really empowered and stuff, and thinking about it in a more nuanced way. And I think that's something you know, historians of medicine could really kind of learn from Mona's approach to agency. And these kinds of there's quite theoretically rich literature on the agency in histories of childhood and medicine, as well. So I suppose that something else so 


MD  26:05

Yeah, and I think the place I'd love to land at is just to give you a little bit of space to talk a bit more about your research. I know you've alluded to it a couple of times, but maybe talking about the project you're working on right now, or the research areas you're really excited about. 


LM  26:19

Yeah, I'm sorry if I've talked about my own research, but too much. 


MD  26:23

Oh, no, no, it's always the most interesting part of the episode. 


LM  26:26

Okay. Yeah, I mean, this at least I kind of know about. Whereas I feel like when writing a summative article like this is so daunting, especially as an early career historian, because there is that inevitable worry of like, if I leave someone out, please, anyone who are left out of this article, please take this as my formal apology. It was not personal yet. So my research right now is where I'm talking about this kind of sitting on the boundary fence between histories of education history as medicine and and now this other postdoctoral I'm in is much more kind of history of medicine focused.  So the current role projects, I'm on is called addressing health. It, please google it, it's a project that takes place between King's UCL and Derby. It looks at histories of kind of health and death and life and kind of everything in between, in the British Post Office, which is something I've worked on a lot. And I've actually, I have published on in the history of education about sort of medical teaching in the post office and kind of like worker organisations and stuff. So yeah, I'm really excited to see that stuff come out. Soon, I'm currently preparing something on histories of disability and morality and stuff like that, which doesn't cooperate stuff relevant to is of interest to historians of education, in particular, thinking about how disabled people participated in and kind of labour economies and how that relates to the introduction of specialist education for particularly blind and partially sighted people in this period. So these kinds of you know, workshops for the blind, that sprung up in some of the major cities and stuff but also thinking about, you know, how we as historians of education of medicine can expand our idea of how disabled people. participated in labour economies, right in a way that wasn't restricted solely to you know, this kind of these kind of like, tasks that various kinds of educationalists deemed appropriate for people with sight loss. So stuff like, you know, basketmaking and cane waving and things like that.  So looking at the role that these blind and partially sighted people played in the post office, but also Yeah, bringing a bit the history of education in there, I suppose. Here I shot too much. My book was published last year German English workplace, a tinnitus nice 45, which was based upon my PhD research, 


MD  29:14

if you were gonna say like, the elevator pitch, like 15 seconds, what it's about why people should get it. 


LM  29:20

Yeah. So my kind of quick pitch for my book is that it brings I think, histories of medicine and histories of education together in interesting ways by thinking about the workplace more definitively, definitively as a site for learning and a site for knowledge dissemination. And I think this is something I would like to kind of explore further, as I kind of pursue my own research agenda as well. So in the book, I look at spaces of formal education, so I spend quite a lot of time on agricultural colleges, thinking about bacteria and milk and cheese and so forth. But I also attempt to kind of think more about the ways in which education and again, this links up to this idea of what we've been talking about this idea of like when when does the history of education begin and end thinking more definitively about the workplace as a site or learning going with avenues and arenas where you wouldn't necessarily expect to like find the history of medicine necessarily. So it's places like the post office as well, and women's institutes to the women's institutes are very interesting. So that was, that was a fun exercise in getting to kind of delve deeper into the history of adult education. And that's something I highlight in the article as well, like, there's been a lot of discussion by historians of childhood and youth about, you know, this idea of the hidden curriculum of the body in schooling and like a monk children, and I think it'd be really interesting to see someone pursue that thinking more about these kinds of hidden curriculums that are so manifest in adult education and those kind of environments as well. And how that specifically relates to ageing and the lifecycle which is something that you know, historians of medicine have like discussed about, discussed quite a lot. So the work of like Pat Thane thinking about ageing and like the medicalization of ageing as well, which Yeah, and I would say so if you're interested in any of the following if you're interested in the history of cheese, histories of meat, pace and histories of cancer, you will you will find all of these, my book, and more.


MD  31:30

It sounds fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about your research and about the article today. I really appreciate it.


Syeda Ali  31:43

Passing notes is a production of the History of Education Society, UK, our executive producer is Heather Ellis. And this episode was written by Michael Donnay and produced by me Syeda Ali You can find a transcript of this episode, as well as more information about our events, publications and conferences on our website historyofeducation.org.uk