5_02 Anne Swift - The National Education Museum

In this episode Oliver Mumford speaks with the Chair of Trustees at the National Education Museum, Anne Swift. Anne discusses the ideas behind the Museum's foundation, its development, and future. The significance of a new national museum, dedicated to the history of education in England and Wales is considered along with its current relevance.

Note: This episode was recorded before the 4th July UK General Election. Guest references to the 'present government' were made with regard to the previous (Conservative) government.

Transcript

Oliver Mumford: 0:08

Hello. Welcome to passing notes, the podcast of the history of Education Society UK. My name is Oliver Mumford, and I'll be hosting today's episode. Hello. Today in the podcast, we're talking about museums, specifically, the development of a new national museum dedicated to the history of education. Museums can offer an insight into a society, what is significant, what stories are told, and in the spaces of absence, what might be neglected. National Museums have a long past in the United Kingdom, unlike in other countries, there has been no one museum centered on education in 2017 however, plans were made to create a modern, physical and virtual museum dedicated to the history of education in England and Wales. I am delighted to be joined down the line today by Anne Swift, chair of the trustees of the National Education Museum, and we will be discussing the foundation ambitions and goals of this new institution. Anne, welcome to

Anne Swift: 1:08

Hiya Oliver, her good to be here. the podcast.

Oliver Mumford: 1:11

This is a very exciting project, and being the founding of a completely new National Museum, there is so much that we could cover, perhaps, though, we should start with, what is the idea behind the founding of the National Education Museum?

Anne Swift: 1:24

Yeah. Well, I think our founder, Hank Roberts, was very struck that the UK, England and Wales, specifically, we don't have a national education museum. And he thought that was something that was very lacking and that we ought to have somewhere which gathered together and celebrated our educational history, which goes back a long way. I was also interested. I was just finishing my year as president of the National Union of teachers, and I'd been to various places around the world and taught with teachers and how they celebrated their own educational history, and particularly I was struck by a visit to Cuba, and the Cuban teachers are very, very proud of their achievements, particularly in literacy. And Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in the Caribbean, and they took us with great pride to see their museum, particularly about the teaching of literacy and reading and how they'd done it and how they'd achieved it. And I just thought, we don't celebrate our own educational history in the same way. So I was very pleased when Hank came up with the idea, and I was one of the people who who joined him in this endeavor to try and start a national museum from scratch, from nothing, really. And I think we we also thought that there are lots of places around the country that do have museums, but they tend to be maybe a Victorian classroom. They're quite small. They might be local to that particular village. They might be based in the old school room, but there's, you know, you can go to Beamish, see a classroom. You can go to Bliss Hill and see again, you know, Victorian classroom, and we have them here. You know where I'm based, in North Yorkshire as well, the Ryedale Folk Museum. So, but we there's nothing that really tells the story of education from its earliest times to the present day. And education for you know, the children of the middle classes and the elites and the children of the poorest people in our society, there's nothing that tells that whole story, or from preschool, nursery age children, right through to adult education and things like the workers Educational Association. And so we thought that this was a gap and that we ought to do something about it. So that's what we're doing, and we're very excited about it.

Oliver Mumford: 3:55

Hopefully we will be able to cover some of those transnational and institutional links A little later, but now I'd like to explore a bit more about the place and purpose of the National Education Museum, which you've already touched upon. Education is in many ways, an almost universal experience, but at the same time, it's very personal one. How do you engage and include audiences and visitors to a museum exploring such varied and often overlooked histories?

Anne Swift: 4:19

Yes, I think you know, we are looking at who would our audience be. And I think for, you know, moms and dads and grandmas and granddads, it's a trip down memory lane. And, you know, seeing objects or reading about something that then they say, Oh yes, I remember that. When I was at school, we used to do that. And then for scholars and students and people who are in education, perhaps a realization that things weren't always the way they are now, and how did we get to where we are now? What is that story of how we arrived at where we are? So for people who are interested in education and educational provision, having. A place where they can either go or using our website, looking at collections and legacy collections, the people who've thought about education a great deal and what they have to say about it, it's to have that available. There isn't a one one stop shop, if you like, for where scholars and those interests in education can go either. So, you know, we we're trying to engage with several different audiences, I think, and try and bring them all together in one place.

Oliver Mumford: 5:31

To have such an institution which brings together so many different collections experiences and perspectives on the history of education promises to be an incredibly valuable resource. And there's so much there to cover. And I wonder how you see these strands being brought together into one museum? I'm particularly interested in how the museum will include histories of underrepresented voices and stories in the history of education, perhaps through its collections, through archives, or any outreach projects that you have planned.

Anne Swift: 5:59

Yeah, I think that that's really interesting. And one of the things we're looking at is collaborations with other people, and also doing a oral history project ourselves, so that the voices of people who are not heard are heard, and we're linking that around themes, so that we will ask people to talk about. You know, this is people, the sort of within living memory, history, if you like, of talking to people about how they experience school through a thematic approach. So for example, it could be how what people did at play time, what their experiences of punishments or reward systems putting on performances, all those memories people have about their school days. And you know when, whenever I speak to any groups of people, everybody's always got a memory of something that happened to them in their school life. And you know, it's capturing those and then making sure that we engage with people who've had not great experiences of school, either you know people you know, what was it like for children of immigrants coming to this country? How did they experience school, children with special educational needs, or who are new neurodivergent and making links with people who are working in that area as well. For example, we've just had contact from school for children with social, emotional, mental health difficulties, because they're looking at working on a project to re engage their students with learning. And we can, I think we can work with them. It's going to be fascinating, because they're going to look at education since the 1870s with the elementary school act, and this year, it's 80 years since the 1944 Education Act. So they're using the history of education in a very innovative way, I think, with their students, to re engage them with education. So making links with people like that, you know, organizations that are looking at the voices of the underrepresented and the unheard in our system is a really interesting project and and it means that we can publish things on our website, so you don't actually have to go to a location to learn about the history of education. We can learn about it in other ways as well and make it accessible. So yeah, there's lots to do, and in some ways, we have to be focused on what we do as well. And you know, it's such a wide topic, I think that's maybe what you were hinting at in your question. You know, where do you start? And you have to start somewhere. So, you know, some of it is fed by the interests and experience of our individual trustees. And you know, I'm particularly as an early years teacher interested in the history of education for our youngest children. How did that happen? And so we'll be looking at things like that, outdoor education, history of open air schools, medical service. You know, there's so many facets that we can accommodate lots of people's interests. So we're always really keen when people get in touch with us, with ideas for projects, and you know, we want to collaborate with other people as well, a great deal, and we've so much to learn as well from others.

Oliver Mumford: 9:30

How do you see the museum telling innovative and reflective histories of education? You've already mentioned some of the transnational influences on both the museum's development and on the history of education in England and Wales. It would be interesting to see what role you consider these influences to have in a in a national museum, and from this, what might the museum offer through its approaches to its audience and to the wider debates on education.

Anne Swift: 9:56

I think we're focusing on the English and Welsh perspective. But. You can't ignore what's going on internationally. And I suppose that's where some of our trade union experience comes in, that we have got links with teachers in countries across the world. You know, I was privileged to visit Finland and experience their education system. And you know, we we've got a lot to learn from other places. And you know, it has felt a little bit in recent years as if education policy is very focused on English, particularly not much about Scotland or Wales and Northern Ireland experiences, and looking at what we can learn, the lessons we can learn from elsewhere, will be part of our of what we do and what we put in front of people. So I think there are lots of opportunities. And I think we've also found, and I found it when I was a head teacher in school that new teachers coming into the profession, you know, we've had what, 30 years of the national curriculum. Our new teachers have never experienced anything other than you know, what's been going on in our more recent history and in their training, they don't learn about education history either. So this is an opportunity to put that right as well, to show people that there were different ways of doing things, and that, you know, we can look to the continent, our near neighbors in Europe and further afield, and to reflect on are we taking the best of what can be learnt about how we educate our population, or are there other ways of doing things? And I'm very keen myself, personally, and certainly was when I was in school, that we have reflective practitioners and educators and that people think about what they're doing with youngsters, and we hear a lot about evidence based teaching. And you think, Well, what evidence, you know, which particular bit of evidence is it based on? And so, you know, we've got an opportunity to present other schools of thought, if you like, about how we educate and how people learn. And you know what? What is the purpose of schooling? What is the purpose of education? So there are big questions as well that we can sort of tackle in a way that leaves people to make up their own minds. It's not saying this way is any better than another way, but let's have a look, and then people make up their own minds.

Oliver Mumford: 12:36

Yes, I think it would be interesting to turn back and look at the reasons behind the establishment of the museum. You mentioned the fact that the lack of an existing national education museum spurred the planning process, and the fact that so many countries across the world have a National Museum of education, but the UK does not. Is a very insightful fact. I think, what do you think the historic absence of a National Museum of education says about the historic reputation and perception of education history in the UK?

Anne Swift: 13:03

Yeah, well, the kind of absence of something makes you think it's not been thought about, and therefore it's not in the public consciousness or the political consciousness as well. And I think we saw that as a, you know, as something that needed to be put right, if you like, and that, you know, it's only by looking at your history that you understand how you come to be where you are. And you know we have as our strap line that it's a museum to inform, educate, enlighten and entertain. And we, you know, we think all those elements are important. And I suppose a modern museum as well needs to be interactive, and so we need to consider those aspects of how we present educational history. But as to your questions, what does it say about the place of education? I think to be political, a lot of people would think that the present government, in its iteration, for the next couple of days, think that nothing happened that was worthwhile before 2010 and that, you know, any educational history prior to that was, you know, not worth considering. And we think it is. And again, whatever your political persuasion, we want to present the history of education in a way that lets people make up their own minds, that they can be enlightened and entertained and educated about the past in order to better make the future. And we think that's an important role that history, in its general sense, plays, and in the educational sense in particular, so that, as I've said before, educators know why they're doing what they do now, and how is that different or better, or, you know, any way to be considered with what went on before? So lots of areas of education, practice and pedagogy are contested, but you wouldn't think so just at the moment, there's a kind of uniformity to what should go on and you know what kind of evidence should be used, and who's making those decisions about what evidence is used is all, I think, a mark of a civilized and grown up society that people should think, where is this evidence coming from, and who's presenting it to us? And so the education Museum is an opportunity to say, hold on. There are other perspectives. There are other views. There are other great thinkers about education, and we should hear what they've had to say and what's happened in the past.

Oliver Mumford: 15:43

We've already mentioned the large number of localized, regional museums which have a focus on education, and how it has now reached a point where there is evidently need and demand for a national museum. And it strikes me talking now that this follows a pattern of some historic developments of education in the UK, where varying localized movements eventually become formalized at a national level. What do you think the importance is of having a National Museum of education?

Anne Swift: 16:09

A good point there about this kind of what would you call it, fractioning of provision? And yeah, you're absolutely right. We've seen that a lot in education. And interestingly, Estelle Morris, Baroness, Estelle Morris, who was our speaker at our second lecture just a few weeks ago, she made an interesting point, that if you we were asked to speak about the development of education since the 1944 act. And I think she put it really succinctly, that at that point, the politicians were at the gate. So it was a national system, but locally administered through education authorities. But now the politicians are in the classroom. They're dictating what's taught and how it's taught, and so that in just in those 80 years that change from political political policy making, which sat outside the environments of the school, now that policy making and political decision making is actually within the gates of the school and within the classroom of the school. And I thought that was quite a neat summing up of how things have changed in that period. So and because of the way education's developed, so that you've now got even local authorities are at a more at an arm's length, with the academisation program, and so you've got regroupings, and in essence, the academies are recreating what the local authorities used to do, and we've got this kind of dual system in place of the maintained schools and the Academy section all publicly funded. Then sitting outside that, again, is the private schools. And of course, that's come into sharp debate during this election campaign with the Labor Party's proposals. So it's an interesting time in education. And I think if we'd been further on in our development, and I think perhaps, you know, we still have a voice to say that, you know, an incoming government could look again at education and how it's being delivered in this country. Is it the most efficient way? Is it the best way? Are there things to learn from the past, other things to learn from elsewhere? And if we get a new government who is more in listening mode than in telling mode, I think quite a number of people in education would be quite pleased that you know that some of that going on, and again, it's who is listened to. And to go back to your point right at the beginning about reaching underrepresented groups. If a national museum can give voice to those that are previously unheard, that would be a great achievement, and would be, I'd be really proud of that. And, you know, be very passionate that we do hear those unheard voices. Because I think, as everybody knows, history is normally told by the victors, isn't it, you know, and we want to tell the history of education by those that have been not only the victors, they have their place as well to tell their story, but also those that are unheard and you know, and give prominence to educators as well to tell their stories and to look back at the great thinkers, the researchers and present their work, as well as to you know, how education could be, how it might have been. I know I've heard people talk about some of your listeners might be familiar with the plaid and report. That was a big part of my teacher training. What the plan report, what lady plan had to say about education? Since then, we've had various reviews. Robin Alexander. View of children and their primary schools, a huge piece of work which informed some Labor Party policy about Every Child Matters. Agenda, it's all there. It's all good stuff, and a lot of particularly the Alexander report, spoke a lot about children's voices, the voice of governors in school, the voice of educators. And it was brushed aside when, particularly when Michael Gove came to prominence and and it was, in my opinion, a great piece of work that we could tap into again. And such a pity that that work was wasted, or appeared to have been wasted, maybe people on the Education Committee and government the select committee, maybe they were aware of it, and, you know, looked at it, but it didn't seem to be very prominent in the public discourse about education and education provision, you know, the voice of parents. What do they want for their children? All that kind of thing we we want to reflect as well in how the museum develops.

Oliver Mumford: 21:02

I think one of the recurring themes here is the role of the museum in not only raising awareness of complex historic influences and impacts on education, but also as a central point between academics, teachers, students, scholars, policy makers and members of the public as well. How would you situate and position the museum in such a context, in the present climate?

Anne Swift: 21:26

Well, I suppose we have to have sharp elbows and thrust ourselves forward in a way, to become part of that. As you say, that discourse, and I suppose a lot of our work at the moment as well, is about what you might loosely call brand awareness and marketing the museum and what it stands for. And I think we're now at a point we're hoping to have a sort of longer discussion amongst ourselves about our direction of travel. You know, where do we go next? How you know, and I think, with the new government coming in is perhaps is a good time to reflect and see how we can influence education policy in ways that are not necessarily party political or partisan, but to say, Look, these are some of the things that have happened before, gone before. Let's use the museum as a repository of all that's gone and been thought before about education. Here it is. It's a resource for policy makers as well as scholars as well as the general public. You know, here we're going to gather together. You know, what's been thought and said about education, what's been the experience? Look, this is what underrepresented groups are saying about their experience. How can we make it better for those people? So it's gathering together those that information, those resources, those thoughts, those ideas, so that and making them accessible to anybody who wants to know about them, and making sure then that people do know they exist and where they are. So, you know, I think that's probably a place where we can be, and as I said, right at the beginning, for people to make up their own minds about this.

Oliver Mumford: 23:22

Well, thank you very much. And that's a fascinating answer with so much which we could go into. But I think, unfortunately, time is pressing, so perhaps as we start to round off this episode, I could ask you about the direction and plans of the museum at the current moment, and what people can look out for and engage with.

Anne Swift: 23:37

Yes, yeah. Well, our sort of immediate, sort of short term ish is to get premises, you know, we're getting increasing number of artifacts donated to us, or people saying, Oh, I've got such and such in my loft, and we're having to say, Well, will you keep it in your loft for just a bit longer? Because our storage is costing quite an amount every month, you know, to keep artifacts and things in good condition. So fundraising is our, you know, main goal, you know. And we'd be delighted if any of your listeners wanted to make any kind of donation, they can go to our website or email us at National Education museum@gmail.org.uk and we'd be happy to take any donations of any kind, and so also making links with other organizations, working collaboratively with other organizations. It's a two way process, you know, and we, we certainly don't underestimate our own like limitations on what we can do as well. You know, so making links with other people, collaborating with people like yourselves, is all excellent, and, you know, all very helpful. It's great that I've now myself personally got a little bit more time to devote. It, and I could fill all my days with working on this. I've got other things to do as well, but yes, it's a great and exciting project, and we hope that even if it doesn't come to absolute fruition in our lifetimes, we'll have laid the foundation stones for an exciting and interactive and welcome museum that celebrates all our educational histories in all their forms.

Oliver Mumford: 25:25

Thank you very much. I'm sure we will be following the progression and development of the National Education museum as it unfolds. All that leaves me to say is thank you for listening and thank you Anne for joining me on the podcast today.

Anne Swift: 25:37

Thank you Bye, bye.

Oliver Mumford: 25:41

Passing notes is a production of the history of Education Society, UK. Our executive producers are Heather Ellis and Tom Woodin. This episode was written and produced by me Oliver Mumford. You can find the transcript of this episode, as well as more information about our events, publications and conferences at our website, historyofeducation.org.uk,