Season 4 Episode #6 My Conversation with When Brown Girls Lead Founder & CEO Nadia Bennett

Nadia  is a school turnaround strategist and former educational leader that made huge strides in the   education system during her 15+ years of service. During her time as a school leader, she was able to double the success rate of English Language Arts (ELA) test scores in her students, increase student attendance and boost teacher retention. In 2017, as principal of the Simon Gratz Mastery Charter School, the school topped the Philadelphia Charter School Performance Profile. Even the New Jersey Department of Education said she was responsible for “restoring faith in a district that had taken a turn for the worse.”

Nadia took everything she learned while she was in the school system and founded When Brown Girls Lead™, an education consulting firm that specializes in creating psychologically safe, authentic and brave spaces for black women to access and succeed in K-12 leadership roles. What she and her team accomplish is monumental, but here is a glance at what they provide: antiracism training, 1:1 leadership coaching, and leadership development.

Where can we follow Nadia:

Website:  www.nadiabennett.com
Instagram: @whenbrowngirlslead

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Transcript

Jebeh 0:25

Hello everyone. Jebeh Edmunds here and welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat in the guest chair today. I'm so excited. We have the founder and c e o of When Brown Girls Lead Miss Nadia Bennett. Let me tell you a little bit about Nadia Bennett's story. Nadia is a school turnaround strategist and former educational leader that made huge strides in the education system during her 15 years of service. During her time as a school leader, she was able to double the success rate of English language Arts test scores in her students, increase student attendance and boost teacher retention. In 2017, as principal of the Simon Gratz Mastery Charter School, the school topped the Philadelphia Charter School Performance Profile. The New Jersey Department of Education said she was responsible for, and I quote, restoring faith in a district that had taken a turn for the worse. Nadia took everything she learned while she was in the school system and founded and is the c e o of when Brown Girls lead an education consulting firm that specializes in creating psychologically safe, authentic, and brave spaces for black women to access and succeed in K-12 leadership roles. And what she and her team accomplished is monumental and they provide. Anti-racism training, one-on-one leadership coaching, as well as leadership development, and we are so honored to have another educator guru. Ooh, I cannot wait for this conversation today. Welcome Nadia to the cultural curriculum chat. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, thank you Nadia. Yes, tell us more about your story of how you came to be into this role of entrepreneurship, helping young black women succeed. Oh, wow. That's a great question. I have been an advocate for anti-racism, since I was born. That is just the truth, right? I came into this world, this way. My mother can tell stories of things that I would say when I was a kid. And I was a kid when, I was reciting Langston Hughes poems in church at eight years old. Like I always understood. The richness of black culture, and I also understood that there were inequities between white, Americans and black Americans. I could not articulate as a child exactly what I was observing. It was more of a knowing as a child. And then for undergrad, I went to Dillard University. It's a historically black college in New Orleans where I'm from. And in our junior or freshman, excuse me, seminar class, they handed us a book by the name of the Miseducation of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson. And that book changed my life. It was as if everything that I had always known began to piece together. I. It makes sense in an intellectual way. And truthfully, after reading that book and taking some of my other freshman courses, I was frustrated. I was frustrated because it was the moment that I realized that the history books had lied to me and that I had a minimal, very minimal understanding of the history of the people that looked like me. And that what I understood before going to Dillard, what I understood about my people was slavery and civil rights, right? And every iconic individual. That was a part of those events in history. I knew those people, but I had a limited understanding of any other individuals. And so when I began to truly learn the richness of the culture, I went through a period, I won't ever forget it, I felt betrayed, right? Because, cause I'm an intellectual, I love to read. And it was like, how could they do this? Like, it just, it felt wrong. And that put me on a journey to begin to seek things out. And then I ended up going to Howard for my masters. And obviously Howard, you know, the Mecca, they just built on that information. Oh, yes. And so, but the, then when I began teaching, I had the experience of being, uh, the only black person on my 11th grade team. I, when I was an assistant principal, I had the experience of being one of three assistant principals of instruction in a district that served, at that time, probably more than 10,000 students, and 70% of those 10,000 students were black. Yet there were only three black assistant principals of instruction. Now, there were several assistant principals of culture, right? The discipline areas. But there were few of us that they put in the role of instruction and when I became an executive director of schools, again, only I was the only black woman on the executive team. And that came with. Sexism, the microaggressions and a, what I would say, a forced smallness. And over time I had to come to terms with the fact that though I had a lot of successes in my career, I had a passion and a very high skillset for the things that I did. I never felt psychologically safe. And so I had a turning point in my career and I said, you know what? I don't want the leaders coming behind me to experience all of what I experienced. See, I was a history teacher, right? And so I have a very clear understanding of how each generation fought their fight. Right? Yes, definitely. I stand on the shoulders of people that came before me so that my fight could be just a little bit easier. Mm-hmm. And so, cause of my clear understanding and connection to that, I wanted to be able to do that for the leaders coming behind me. And I do wanna say that the, you know, the name of my company is when Brown Girls Lead. And while I do have a particular passion for black women, because I, because we are a triple marginalized group in leadership, I work with all leaders. I work with all leaders. It does not matter. Gender, race, et cetera. It matters mindset and intention. Anyone that wants to create a more equitable world for leaders, teachers, students, parents, I am your person. I love that. I love that Nadia and I, I wanna touch more about that mindset and intention because a lot of educators, and you've been there, I've been there too. When you are the very few, you know, you get to be tokenized. And I remember being also the only black teacher in our whole district, and I'm in northern Minnesota and just like you're all we've got, like I was the great hope and I. And I wanted, my students want to see that I existed, but two, I had to keep that in mind, like you said, of the future educators that are coming behind you. So what mindset shift did you have to in instill in these future leaders? Because you know, coming into this space, Of the hurdles that you went through and you know that they're gonna also see those same hurdles, what mindset do you prepare them for? The number one thing, and I said this as a teacher, and I can say now as a founder, and c e o education is a field that you have to be called to Yes. It can't be something that you just fell into. It can't be something that you just do because you know, you might, retirement package might be good. You have to be, feel a higher connection to the work that you do. It doesn't matter. You are a religion. It doesn't matter if you don't have a religion, if you're not a spiritual person. You have to, whatever you abide by, there has to be some kind of inner higher connection. Mm-hmm. To know that you are doing the work that, that you're doing, because, In my experience, both when I was in school buildings and with working with leaders. Now that's the thing that keeps you there. Yes. Oh yeah. Right. And so that's number one, like I have to assess, is this person, are they here because they were called to this? Someone said to me one time before, there's a difference between being competent and being called. Right? Ooh, that's deep. Yes. Being competent versus being called. Yes. Yes. That's so true. Once there's a understanding that yes, this person is called to do what they're doing at this time in history, then it's a matter of, okay, what? What is in your locus of control? In terms of the kind of change that you want to create? Yes, and that's why I have the benefit of working with all different levels, right? In that I've had leaders say, I want to be the person that makes sure that in curriculum in this district, There is diversity in curriculum that every child that takes an ELA class in this district, they see X amount of books that reflect people of color, et cetera. People are incredibly passionate about that particular thing, right? Yes, yes. The people that are incredibly passionate about seeing more black men in classrooms and teaching, there are people who are passionate about creating and cannot creating, but cultivating more black scientists. And so, and then we have superintendents who are, uh, who are passionate about having more diversity in their district, whether it be from the student lens, the leader lens, et cetera. They just want more diversity because they want their district to reflect the actual world and not a bubble. Yes. Right. And not the bubble. Yeah. And not the bubble. Exactly. And so once we, I have an understanding that this person has the mindset, the calling. What is your specific goal? What is your specific passion and goal within this realm of, uh, d e I work at d e I and anti-racism is what I like to say. Yes. Cause I, I lean on the term anti-racism. So then I support them in accomplishing that goal. And I have found that that is actually more effective than trying to approach D E I A work from. Every angle. Yes. Cause no one person is going to be the person to create all of the change. Yes. And don't you also see with that all of the change of, it's such a wide scope, like you said, black male, teachers, scientists, cultivation, people in leadership. It's so, you know, broad that people might be overwhelmed. So I love your framework of kind of fine tuning. What is the purpose, albeit curriculum, you know, development or, you know, it's like I love the idea that you want them to just start somewhere and that focal point is how you will lead this anti-racism. In space in education. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the work also has to be sustainable. Yes. Yeah. It has to be sustainable and a person can burn out very quickly trying to tackle everything, and particularly trying to tackle everything when there is no one in their district that has done it before. Yes. And they're trying to figure it out, and they don't know where to start. They don't know what books for their staff to read. They don't know how to reach out to more diverse candidates. It can feel impossible. Mm-hmm. So rather than carry that weight of trying to do it all, let's pick the thing that you're most passionate about. Let's make the difference there. You know, and I. I took on that framework and that mindset when I realized that the we're playing the long-term game. Yes. When I was younger, agreed. Oh yes. When you're young and you're operating off of pure passion, right? You wanna just tackle the world, right? You wanna go after everything and I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that, and then you kind of settle in to the fact that, okay, wait a minute. There are thousands and millions of people who have fought this battle before me. Yes. And there thousands and millions after me. I'm here to do is my part. I love that. Yes. And, and Nadia too. I love how you said our part in this history, in this space, because we are, we're, we are still in historic times. And so for you to share that piece of yourself of, okay, what impact am I going to leave in this moment in time for my clients, for, educators. Oh, this is just awesome. And another thing too I wanted to ask you is, cuz you've been giving me really good tips on finding that focal point of what are we as a district or as a building or as a, uh, an individual teacher going to focus on, um, in this anti-racist work in education? My biggest question I wanna ask you is how can we get more representation of black teachers? Is there a connection group? Is there, you know, and we're a collective society. We, you know, we talk the talk, we, we see a neighbor at the grocery store and it's like, oh, I know somebody who could fill that role. You know, it's not all gonna be a LinkedIn post. You know, it's, it's that communal, you know, kind of comradery that we have in the BIPOC community. So are there any tips for school leaders that are listening of what they can do to. Get outta their comfort zone. You know, I always say we exist, you know, we are here. But for them to have that connection and where do they start to branch out? Absolutely. So the first thing that a school leader wants to do is actually sit down and look at the numbers and see what they actually stand in regards to diversity. Okay. So I always advise clients at a minimum. Your teaching and leadership staff should reflect the diversity of your student body. Mm-hmm. That's the meaning if your school or your district serves. If 15% of the young people that your school of district serves identify as black, then 15% of your teaching and leadership staff should identify as black. Yes. That's the minimum, because that's you can do for the diverse group, and that would go for black, Asian, Latinx, et cetera. Like it should reflect everybody because the children deserve to see that and not just the children that look like the leaders. All children deserve to see that diversity. There's tons of research Yes. Behind how diversity, it helps all children. So that's number one. Yes. So if you're not at that number, then your first goal is to at least get to that number. Yes. Yes. But have to know your data in order to, to be able to do that. Now, once you are there and you're there comfortably, and you're retaining. The people of color that are in that district. Because another issue that districts have is I can hire them, but I can't always retain them. Mm-hmm. So, and they don't retain them because oftentimes the culture is not set up for diverse individuals, and so it becomes more challenging to keep them. So once you are comfortably at that minimum, then you can set a higher goal. Yes. Love that. Have a clear goal. The second thing is to do an assessment of your HR and hiring department to identify if there are structures that are perpetuating implicit bias. definitely. Right. So if your HR or hiring staff, which however you do it in your district, if everyone on that team is white, there is a chance simply based upon the fact that we all. Lean towards our in-group, we lean towards those that look like us, that are, have a similar background than us, et cetera. If the, if everyone on your HR hiring team is white, it's a strong chance that the majority of the people that you hire are going to be white and that person that's doing it. I always give everybody the belief of the doubt. They're likely not even conscious of it. Yeah. They're just going into work saying, I want to hire the absolute best teacher for my students, et cetera, and in their mind that implicit bias is playing out because in their minds they've been taught that the best is white. Yeah. And even the name, if it's an ethnic name sounding name, exactly. That's not even gonna get a call back cuz there's a lot of research there saying if you have an ethnic spelling, different sounding name, that bias kicks in. And also too, with that HR audit, Don't you also realize too, with teacher evaluations as well, even mid-year, even going in for tenure, there's that bias there as well too, right? Of letting those teachers go. Those are the ones that are always the most likely to be displaced, with those, evaluations as well, right? Exactly, and can I just say that it saddens me to be reminded in this moment that there are individuals that are not being hired or being overlooked because of their name when yes, I knew for a fact that that person would be an excellent, adults to have before the children because guess what? There are black children with ethnic names that go to the school. And what more beautiful things And to have someone in front of them that looks like them. Yeah. That can teach them not only white American history, but black American history and African history and Asian history. Like what more beautiful thing. Right. And that's why the adults in the building doing their work and having a clear and honest conversation with themselves around their own implicit bias. I wanna make this super clear. We all have biases. We all, yes. Agreed. Yeah. The problem comes in is when the race of power, because of the structures in this country on the race of power and those biases begin to play out and how that becomes been an oppressive system or structure. So no one individual though should be walking around, beating themselves up about biases that they may have. We all have them. Yeah. But how are you going into the structures and the systemic racism that keeps racial groups and marginalized individuals down? Agreed, and like you said, that reflective practice of looking at the departments, looking at buildings and seeing the disproportionate numbers, right, of teaching staff and the students that they serve, and there's so many. Excuses I would hear of, oh, Jeb, you know, we looked, there's not very many in this university. I'm like, you know how many universities we have in this country? You know, and I'm from, you know, Liberian immigrant parents, and I came at as a toddler. My mom was a teacher, and it was like, yeah, we didn't come to Minnesota for the weather. We came for opportunity. Exactly. So those are the excuses that would just, Sit there and just frustrate me as an educator going, I know there's more than me out there that wanna teach and want to be there, but it is that barrier that so many of us are hitting against because of what you just said, Nadia, of the implicit biases of the lack of checking your own data. We've got data on everything, you know, and so exactly the data of our student body, that's. Something that's so quick that we have access to, to make that work. I have two stories for that. Oh, yes. Share way. Yeah. I love it. I, back when I was an assistant principal, we were in a, leadership meeting and the leadership meeting was about having a more diverse staff. I can honestly give credit to the district-wide that I worked for in Philadelphia. They were amazing at conversations about race and keeping it at the forefront of people's minds. I'm not gonna say they did everything right, but at least they talked about it and they made like a conscious effort, right? And so the conversation was about, race and diversity, et cetera. And they, white male, who was a principal at that time, he was talking about candidates and he said, Well, it's difficult for me to hire black people because I want to hire the best person for the job. Wow. Why can't we be both? That's my, that's a t-shirt that I wanna have made. Yeah. Why can't we be both? I thought to myself, I mean, obviously all the black leaders made eye contact with each other and had non-verbal conversation about who was gonna address this man. And the moment, cuz they had to be addressed. Yeah. But what was said in that moment was, do you realize that, you just said that you ma, you're making, there's an assumption in that statement that the best candidate is not black. Yes, exactly. He didn't even realize that he was making that assumption. you are going into interviews with a mindset of, I'm going to interview this black person because there's a goal around diversity, but I know they're not the best person for the job. You do not know that. And furthermore, like the black principals in that room, and this is respectfully, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to him as an individual, but where I was in my leadership at that time and where some of the other black principals were, we were running circles around that guy. That particular man, not saying that's the case for everybody, but that particular man, we were running circles around him. So it's just like, how can you not hear yourself? And how can you have, how is it fair for you to have this mindset and serve in a district? It's a school, but the majority of children are black. if you believe that about black adults, you believe it about black children. That's what I was just about to say Nadia, that low expectation of those students that he's serving. Exactly. It doesn't do them any favors either. And like you said too, in that moment of looking at each other with your peers going, oh my gosh, we have to address this. But also insult. What you didn't think I, didn't study and do all the accreditation that I needed to be in this room. And then you're just saying, we're just gonna interview you just for performative sake, but you're not gonna get that job because we need the best. You know? And I'm like, yeah, we need a T-shirt that says, why can't I be both? Can't I be black and the best candidate for the job? I wanna say like that was a reflection of that person. Mm-hmm. that district. They were all white men and they thought very highly of me and my work. It was just that individual. But another thing that, I wanted to share the other, and this is for the children, for anybody who's listening, if you are trying to navigate this space and figure out, Why this is so important, or you need reinforcement as to why this is so important. There was a school that I was working with amazing school, amazing leaders, in that they had the right heart and passion for the work. All of the people on the leadership team, identified as white or Latinx. Okay? And there was not one black teacher on staff, not one. And 19% of the student body, identified as black. Something around, I could be off on that number, but it's somewhere around that. And I was served helping this district and one of the ways I was helping them was for that reason, to hire more black staff and to do some anti-racism work. And when I walked into the building, a little black girl who is absolutely incredible. When I walked in, she didn't know who I was and she looked up and she said, oh my gosh, that's gonna be my first black teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And when I asked more questions that, little girl had, she was in fifth grade and she had been at that school since kindergarten. Wow. And her whole time, she's never had a black teacher and was so excited about the idea of having a black teacher. The students notice it and they care. They do care. So yeah. I just wanted to share that just tears up because Knowing little girls and boys like her are just like, ah, could you be, maybe next year I'll have you. Oh, you're in the building. And that, and even though you're there for a different purpose, it's just like, wow. so many. And like you said, all kids need to see those lived experiences. They need to see that representation and. And just to know that it is possible cuz that little girl seeing you in that hallway, she might wanna be a teacher because she saw you in that role, you know? Yeah. I believe it was. I'm gonna borrow this quote from Viola Davis. She said recently in her interview, that representation matters because children need to see representation of their future manifestation. I was like, oh, by ooh chills. I was like, not the future manifestation. I will use that. Viola. So it was, I'm like, it's the truth though. It is the possibility of what we could be. What we could become. So, yeah. Yes. Oh, Nadia, this was so amazing. And you're right. That manifestation of what is possible in them, and I think that's the work that you will continue to do with your when Brown Girls Lead. This is just an amazing organization. I will put Nadia's information in the show notes so you can follow more of her work and the resources that she has for us and. Any final thoughts before we go Nadia, for our listeners? You've got great tips, especially for teachers that I know and educational leaders that are just stuck and where to begin. I love that you said find that focal point. Get that data. Audit that HR department with your hiring practices as well as, you know, candidate retention. But I really want you to just, any final thoughts that you'd like to share with us. Yes. I would add one last thing to that. Uh, something that has worked for me when I was a school leader as well as I advise other schools that I work with, is build relationships with historically black colleges. Yes, there are. There are over a hundred of them in the country. They're all over the place and then they don't even have to be close to you. Cuz trust me, some young people coming outta undergrad are willing to move. Yes. But build relationships. Historically. Black colleges visit the campus, get to know the dean of the School of Education. And build a partnership that allows you to hire right outta school. You are helping everybody. Cuz believe me, those children are coming outta school. They want a job, right? Oh yes. Oh yeah, exactly. And you are bringing more diversity and you get to pour into the, a young, eager educator that wants to learn and you can coach them and mold them, et cetera. But that is one thing that I think that many overlook. Yes. Contact the deans of the Schools of Education. Build a relationship. Go there to their hiring fairs. Send them emails to send. That's actually how I got hired outta Howard with the district that I worked for in Philly. They were given a like signing bonus. To people coming outta HBCUs. I said, well, I have no money. I'll happily interview with you. I'll happily accept your offer. Accept your offer. Where do I sign? Yeah, where do I sign? Especially right outta college. You're like, Hmm, these loans are hitting. Yeah. As soon as you cross. Yeah. Bonus. Thank you. And I ended up being with that, uh, organization for eight years. Amazing. I love that because a lot of those school, let's just say historically, they have been overlooked. These are accredited. Colleges and universities. Absolutely. They go through the same, standards and benchmarks all of us have to go through to become educators. And you know, Nadia as well as I do, you're getting your doctorate, future, Dr. Bennett so exciting. The hoops that we have to go through just to even be certified as an educator. So we are those lifelong learners. And that calling, like you said, of. Yeah, we want to be in the classroom with our students. I mean, our vice president of the United States graduated from historically black college. I'm not sure what more clearly they're graduate. Uh, elite, uh, highly intelligent, hardworking individuals. And she's just an example because she holds one of the highest positions in the world. Yes. But I'm, there's so many of us, there's so many of us in similar work, so yeah. Yes. Love that. Oh, Nadia, this was such a joy to speak with you today and uh, I'm just so excited to see your journey along this path. Now that I know you to keep following and seeing what you're doing and continue with these collaborations. So thank you for being on the show, Nadia. Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks.