S2 Episode #8 A Conversation with author Kathlyn J. Kirkwood on her book Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me 'Round: My Story of the Making of Martin Luther King Day

On today's episode, I chat with Author Kathlyn J. Kirkwood as we discuss her new book Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me 'Round: My Story of the Making of Martin Luther King Day.

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Hello everyone is Jebeh Edmunds here founder of the cultural curriculum chat podcast. Today's guest is my first guest. I'm super excited. Her name is Kathlyn J. Kirkwood and she was born and raised in Memphis, Tennessee. Kathlyn J Kirkwood is the author of Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around the story of an everyday activist, and the making of the Martin Luther King holiday. A retired professor Kathlyn focuses on writing for children and volunteering with underprivileged third and fourth grade students in the Nashville area. She has developed several innovative workshops that use trade books to help young people learn about the world beyond their immediate surroundings, and to inspire them with a love of reading. Let's take a lesson. Today we are here speaking with V Dr. Kathlyn J. Kirkwood, on her book that she just published a couple of months ago, it's brand new, Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around my story of make of the making of Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, and Kathlyn thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and the audience. And if you're new to my podcast, Hello, my name is Jebeh Edmunds, CEO and founder of the cultural curriculum chat podcast, and my biggest mission is to share with you all lots of multicultural educational materials that you can use with your students, as well as with your community. So without further ado, I am so excited we are here with my very first guest, my very first podcast guest. I'm so excited to Kathlyn on our show today and she's going to tell us more about her story where she grew up her inspiration for the book. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for the opportunity. This is my very first podcast. So we are all neophytes in this process. So I'm looking forward to the chat as well. Thank you. Oh, well tell us more about your story. And you know, and how you grew up, just to give our audience more of a background? Well, my story is that as a child, I lived in what I often described in the book as in Kathy's world. I grew up poor, and I didn't realize I was poor until I was 28 years old. But with that, and I guess I didn't realize that I was poor because I was nurtured and loved and protected, and just all the wonderful things and this is why I relished in my own personal bubble and Kathy's world. As far as growing up, I've got the younger daughter, there were five brothers and sisters. My mom was a registered nurse who's advocated for voter registration. My father was a Master Barber on Beale Street. And before what they at the time, they call it an urban renewal, but you would probably know what is gentrification? And I often tell people when they travel to Memphis and they go, you know, one of the first places they want to go see Beale Street. Well, Beale Street is a tourist attraction is nothing like it was when I was growing up. At that time, as a youth Beale Street was just consumed with all kinds of African American business entrepreneurs. It was just a whole different kind of world because the world was very segregated at that time. So I grew up, like I said, even though it was during Jim Crow segregation, separate water fountains and all those kinds of things. None of those things were really important to me because, like I said, I was in, in my own bubble. I was in campus world, and with the love and the overprotection, and the nurturing of my parents and my elder sisters. It just wasn't an issue for me. And that really didn't happen until the day Dr. King was assassinated, as I mentioned in the book, when I am 17 years old. Yeah, and, and how you wrote it. In the beginning, your Kathy's world was a wonderful place. You have that community, that extended family. It did remind me of, you know, the extended family culture that I had in Minneapolis with the Liberians and the diasporic. It just seemed like the world that your families created for you, although it was segregated, you felt safe, you felt nurtured, you felt, you know, a sense of belonging, and being in what you wrote in the book with your father with the barber shop. That was the hub that was where everybody would talk and, you know, talk everybody knew and that you know, with like you said, you know, we lose a lot of that even today, a lot of people are in their own little space in their own little bubble. Yeah. and even like when you read the first page when I got the copy, when you said you don't know my face or my name, but the day Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was killed, I became a foot soldier, a doer, a worker and everyday activists in the civil rights movement. And trust me, Kathy, they're gonna know your name in your talk, I will talk it Yes, but I that got me before even open, you know, you had me right there. And I feel like as an educator, and we can talk more when we converse, but students need to see those real accounts of people in history living and giving that story. So, you know, I feel that when we keep learning about your story, when people have this book, they have that first, that first moment of when that tragic day happened. And they got to see how you you grieved, how your community grieved how the world was watching Memphis at that time. And I think how you crafted it was very well done for young people to understand exactly what was going on. Because as a teacher, we have that small chapter on the civil rights movement. You know, you know that chapter, right? And kids are constantly asking questions. And if it wasn't for you to have this book, I can use this in my class with firsthand account so kids can actually feel that moment what you are going through by reading your words. And I think that's just so so beautiful. We'll just sidebar for a minute yesterday. My husband and I, you know, mentioned about our literacy program. It's under Better Be LLC, but we are Team Kirkwood literacy lab where we bring books to life, but we also are engaged in with book club for fifth graders. But yesterday, I read a book about Cesar Chavez, and that whole activism and somewhere along the lines of one of the students had asked about the separate water fountains and if we had lived through that, and it was really interesting how captive that they were when Alan we call them Mama Kay and Papa Kay proceeded to tell his experience of going shopping with his mom at the time that the store was called Kreski. And you would probably know it is Woolworths. And he saw that there was separate water fountains and he wanted to know if the water was really different for the colors. So he decided to go see if the white water was better than the color water. And I wish you could have seen the kids faces it was like that bet you could have dropped a pan. And you would have heard it because they it was just like, I can't believe he was someone who was actually his shared had lived in that situation. And what that was really like, and so as he was sharing that and how someone approached him and asked him boy, what are you doing? And his mom turned around startled, like, Alan, what are you doing kind of frightened and stuff, but it was really, really interesting to observe the kids as he was sharing that and it's just just stuff that you know, it's just really amazing. Yeah, yeah. And like you said to they have no no reference, nothing to say, Oh, I've been there. You know and for Papa Kay your Allen to share that. Yeah, I bet if we couldn't hear a pin drop. And you know, what I loved on your website when you wrote, you know, my path to becoming an author was anything but linear. And I feel you know, when when you wrote that, you What inspired you Yeah, to write this book it you know, we have that tragic day. You know, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's assassination, and I was looking in as like, that was 54 years ago, let you know, next week, you know, and people think that oh, it was so long ago, but it wasn't. So you know, what inspired you to become an author in general and to write this book. As I say, it wasn't linear. A lot of my writing prior to writing picture books in that bed being as a college professor, I was writing but they were scholarly and, you know, academic and I remember going to a couple of workshops for highlights and SC BWI, which is society for children's book writers. And some of the teachers I would tell him, I said, Well, you know, I have written in that publishing the scholarly, boring. So actually, what happened? I was doing I will consider myself an oral historian, because I was telling the story of how Dr. King's Day came to be through various workshops. And one of my former church members, approached me after one of the workshops and said you should write a book. Well, at that time, I had attempted a A couple of manuscripts one was about bullying. And it was titled, Julie can't play and it went nowhere. I tell people all the time, it's still sitting up on the shelf upstairs. And then I went from that to writing or attempting to write this book about poundcake, because I've made some really, really delicious poundcakes. And my daughter, my younger daughter was saying, Oh, Mommy can sell these poundcakes. And so I decided I was gonna write this book about poundcakes. And I remember being at the library, and I was just kind of stuck, I wasn't making any progress. And I call and other one that you just saw my first form. And so I'm just having some problems with this poundcake. And she's, she said, Mommy, I don't want to hear another word about poundcakes. She said, Your money is in the book and gone on. And at the time, I didn't even have a title for it. And then she said, you're going to be really, really upset. When someone writes your story. Before you do, you're going to be really upset. So even though my former church member had said, you should write the book, I heard her, but I was so engaged with other things that I thought were more important. And when Anna just made it very plain and clear to me, that's when I said, Okay, I need to put everything down. And focus on this before. So from that point on, I was just, I became very serious about it, I became very committed feel that I was destined to write years before I did. So I wrote grants, and everything went well. But I did this after that. And actually, when I moved to Nashville in 2005, I was still looking for a teaching position. And I had a few but nothing that was really serious, or what I thought was worthy of my skills and talents. And that's when I realized that everything was kind of put on hold for me until you better write. And that's when I really, really, you know, get serious about it, and get engaged in all the research and all the ups and downs, and sideways and everything. So this is really how it happened as I give credit to exhale, and amaz, my first editor, but she was the one that really pushed me to do what I probably should have been doing for some time. And I'm really, really happy that she did, because the more I look at young people and realize that we have so many, many problems, not only in the United States, but just globally. And I feel that when I know, young people, we all have gifts and talents. And we all and I feel that we have civic social responsibilities, to use those talents to try to create a world that's very different than, than it is today to make it better than, than my world in the past better than the world today. Because I've had students when I was teaching who got really annoyed, because I remember this one student had asked me wasn't the world a better place than it was, you know, 30 property at that time was probably 3035 years ago. And I told her no. And she became very angry with me. And she said, You are racist, you descend, because she wanted me to say that the world was better. I wish I could find her today. Because I would love to have that conversation today to see what she really thinks about the changes. Yes, we as I had mentioned to someone, we can go to any restaurant we want, we could stay at any hotel, but we still have over we have covert racism and we have things that are still preventing us. We as a people, some people with black people of color, you know, people of color, but also for people and other individuals from having that wonderful slice of the pie would say, yeah, a lot of work done. Yeah, yeah. Um, so just kind of talking more about when you were writing in your book and what I loved how you had was, you know, one year firsthand accounts, but to the letter, you know, that you wrote your parents when you wanted to do your first you know, protest, and how you had it, you know, it was creeping up and I'm like, you've got the ladder, you know, I just, it just how did that feel? Just writing that and then, you know, giving it to your parents for permission to you know, go on this bus, you know, and March I mean, it's like, Man, I'm that is like, so courageous. And, you know, I went from, like I said, from being a campus world to becoming a very angry young woman. I was angry with anybody and everybody who was white, and didn't want to see speak or anything. But what happened is I participated in the marches. I'd noticed that that was March and said that side were people who didn't look like me. So but what happened? I had joined the freedom choirs and all those kinds of things. And I hadn't gone to a rally. And I don't know who it was speaking at the time, but they were saying that, you know, we'd get to participate in this large and you get to come go to Washington, Washington on the poor people's march, and I'm just, I gotta do this, I must do this. My parents kept saying no. And to be honest, my boyfriend was now my husband. And my parents really loved him. And I just didn't know what else to do. Because I was just asking him pleading, they kept saying, No, you can't go, No, you can't go. And I said out, would you please talk to them? I tell them listen to you. He did. I don't know what he said. But my father finally told me that I couldn't go he said, but you have got to wear some pants, because back then girls didn't wear pants. And you got to have some money. So that's really how and I writing that letter was a last ditch effort. I am stunned and shocked even myself, and that I even found the letter I just. And when I said I can't believe I have this letter. And on top of that, I have the in the book is the petition. Original petition for DACA kids, you know, the holiday, I'm gonna tell you, I contacted the Smithsonian, the Library of Congress, I contacted Emory University, the rules, I think it's called the Rose Library, I contacted so many places, my sister says she thought she had a copy, she couldn't find hers. I was just really just so frustrated, because I knew that I really needed this petition to be in the book. I know, they do everything online, and all of that, but I just wanted it you know, I wanted kids to be able to see this is the process. This is what we did. And I'm gonna tell you, I was I finally the library Congress. There's another arm, I can't think of the this other department, they found a copy. But the copy that they sent me had signatures, and the individuals who had signed it lived in New Jersey. And if last ditch effort, I would have used that, but I'm gonna tell you how I found it. I was cleaning the garage was complicated. And then I had my college trunk. And I looked inside of my college truck, I had these planters. And inside one of the planners was the original copy of the I was like, oh. So I just, I think that everything about this book was destined and sanctioned. And it was just the best, it was the best feeling ever. I mean, I have chills, like the original petition to make a holiday is in your college trunk. I didn't realize which I didn't mention I had forgotten about all of that kind of environment. I didn't put it in the book. But I I had that letter where I was sending it out to people as the coordinator for for that trip. Wow. Amazing. I am just in awe like, yeah, just here's a petition that literally has changed millions of lives. But you know, it's right here. Right. And you think it's like right under your nose, you're looking everywhere, but it's right under your nose, when you get a chance to take a closer look to see the silhouette, I mean, because they have different ones. But that particular one, I love it because of the story that it's telling within itself is really, you know, and just riveting of the names you have put in that book of them. You know, like you said, like the movers and the shakers. It's not a one person thing. It's a whole collective of people, and, and also how you had to do the work, you and others had to do the work to convince others that it's a good idea. Oh, but it's only on, you know, we can't do a Monday and how come he can get this day and other people don't get this day, you know, and it was just like the rationale and how you bring that background story of you know how to get it on this compromise and making it you know, the third Monday of the month, it's huge. You know, what is really amazing to me is that when I say nameless and faceless Katy Hall, if I was to mention her name anybody, most people I would say the great majority of the people in you know, wouldn't know the name wouldn't recognize the name, but she was really a mover Groover she was the mind behind that. She was the one that came up with the very ingenious idea. Just there was so much discord and they kept talking about the money in addition to that, and she was the one that came up with idea that we can do it and make it a fixed day make it the third Monday, which would save government money. And that's what I want people to know, as they read the book learn about Katy Hall. Yes, yeah. So and they don't understand the impactful role of Stevie Wonder, once again, it wasn't for Stevie, you know, he invested a lot of time, a lot of money to make all of these things a reality. Yes. And you know, and I didn't know who Katy Hall was until I read your book, you know, and so to me, it was like, wow, you know, that was an ingenious move of, like you said, the discord of, oh, we don't, you know, and as a black man at this time to be recognized by the, you know, as a federal permanent holiday, that was big, it was really big. And, and also Stevie, like, when you first met him, and in the camera, I was just like, I just was like, I couldn't, I just was like, wow, I just cannot wait to have this conversation with you. Because, yeah, I could not put this book down. When I got the copy sent, I will, I mean, my kids are in hockey practice online, just go, just gotta keep gotta keep reading about Kathy. So I feel like I've known you already, just by reading this. And, and like I said, to my audience, to literally get this for your small group read it out loud, it doesn't have to be in January can be any time of the year, because the students need to know the process of even how to make a holiday, you know, it's not just something you could, you know, put online now that people can do it, but, but to have it federally recognized as a nation, the steps that you have created that you have gone through, and you made it in a way for our students, like you said, academia as a whole different, you know, literature, but when you I tip my hat, because to even get my fifth graders to listen to stand up and you know, and to read is a challenge of itself, but how you written it in a way that you know, young people can understand and go through that process with you. I tell you, it's right, I tell you, I'm in awe, not to tell people all the time, if Stevie Wonder only knew what kind of crush I had on him. It's amazing that even that song, that happy birthday song that all of us our generation knew, you know, and I remember when I was young, they did a big TV special. And that song came on, you know, and it was like, and we do my immediate family. We play that song all the time for our birthdays. So it is it just see that it was synonymous to Martin Luther King Jr. Day is amazing. Yeah. Well, it's amazing that a lot of I would say, black people. No, it is, you know, the heavy burden. That's that. But there are a lot of my, you know, other persuasion colleagues and friends who are not aware or not familiar with the song. And so I really feel that part of the process also is to teach and educate. And so there was this one, I can't think of her name, but this young lady had done an interview. So she sent me questions, and I sent her these answers. So she sent me an email that she had done her walk that morning, and she was listening to Stevie Wonder bobbing up and down. And she said, people, we're looking at her like, what's wrong with you? Oh, my goodness, it is so and just how Yeah, but you did meet him again and again, which was awesome. But that first time? Yeah, it's just wow. So what would you like our young readers to know after they read your book or while they're reading your book? Any any advice? And I want them to, first of all understand that they have a responsibility to, as I said, to use those gifts and talents, whatever they may be, to help to create a different world or a better world because they can only get better. Wow, thanks again. Kathlyn for an amazing conversation today. If you are interested in purchasing Katherine's book Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around my story of The Making of Martin Luther King Day by Kathlyn J Kirkwood illustrated by Steffi Walthal.. You can purchase it wherever books are sold, and I will also have in my show notes more information of where you can follow Kathlyn J Kirkwood story and how she inspires and educates our youth today