Cultural Curriculum Chat with Jebeh Edmunds

Season 6 Episode #3 My Conversation with Award Winning Author Jamilah Thompkins-Bigelow

• Jebeh Edmunds

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Award-winning author and educator Jamila Tompkins-Bigelow joins us for an insightful discussion that promises to enrich your understanding of cultural diversity and language appreciation. Discover how her unique upbringing, with deep roots in both West African and African American heritage, has shaped her remarkable storytelling. Jamila opens up about the impact of growing up in a multilingual household and the significance of name pronunciation, as highlighted in her beloved book "Your Name is a Song." This conversation will leave you reflecting on the importance of valuing different languages and accents, especially those often marginalized.

In another compelling segment, Jamila shares her journey from a dedicated teacher to a celebrated children's book author, driven by the desire to see Black Muslim kids represented in literature. Her book "Sister Friend" is a poignant tale that addresses the challenges of being different in a school setting, offering readers a glimpse into the lives of Black Muslim children through the story of Amina and her new friend Sundas. This episode also explores how Jamila's work fosters inclusive conversations and understanding among kids of all backgrounds. Don't miss the chance to learn about valuable educational resources available on her website, designed to support teachers and families in continuing these vital discussions.

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Speaker 1:

Hello, welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat podcast and Mrs Edmonds' Cultural Corner. If you are new to the channels, I am your host, jeba Edmonds, and I am so excited that you're here today. We study all things multicultural educational resources and strategies for educators and community alike. So for our guest today, we have the author, jamila Tompkins-Bigelow, and I'm going to give you a quick background about our author in the guest chair today. Jamila Tompkins-Bigelow is a Philadelphia-based author of popular, educator-recommended children's books. She is a two-time Muslim Bookstagram Picture Book Award winner and she has earned the prestigious Walter Irma Black and Golden Kite Award honors for her work. Her books continue to make many best of lists, including Time's 10 Best YA and Children's books of 2021 and Book Riot's 20 best children's books of all time. Get your listening ears ready and leave the distractions behind, because you don't want to miss this interview. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat podcast in Mrs Edmond's Cultural Corner and in the guest chair today.

Speaker 1:

I am so excited we have Jamila Tompkins, bigelow award-winning author and educator, and aspiring griot our storyteller if you're not familiar with that term, and I'm just fangirling right now because in my earlier podcast and YouTube channel three years ago, I found your book your Name is a Song and I resonated with your character, kororjali Musu, and how she felt about her first name and no one in her class being able to pronounce it. So, before we start, thank you Because of a name that's different, you really made all of us feel seen and taller, and I had a cousin named Ugazi that I gave her child that book too. I'm like look, you're in the book. So thank you to your work and your talent and bringing you know Black Muslim characters in your book you know for all of us to learn from. So welcome, welcome.

Speaker 2:

Welcome. Oh, thank you, so glad to be here, so very glad oh thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, jamila, so can you tell us a little bit more about your story? I did an intro earlier in the episode about your awards, but let's learn more about you and your roots.

Speaker 2:

Sure, sure. So you know my name is. I tell people you can call me Jamila or Jamila, and people are very confused by this because I have a name book, a whole book about names and getting it right. But it actually has a lot to do with my background, right, because I come from a family that has two different you know cultures really. So my mother is West African. She came, really, our family is from Guinea, on that side, although a lot of our family members are in Liberia.

Speaker 2:

I know we mentioned that. You know, so we are, you know, but we are, you know, guinean Mandingo and that side of the family often would call me Jamila, right, jamila, and I was named after my grandmother, abhaja Jamila, you know, so I have this name. And on my father's side of the family we are African-American. You know Black American people, you know the people who are descended from those who were enslaved, you know, and that side of the family, I'm Jamila, I'm Mel, and so within even my household, I had these multiple pronunciations of my name and multiple pronunciations of different things. You know, just different kinds of sounds and language. That was happening.

Speaker 2:

So that really colors my perspective of the world, you know, and I grew up in this, you know, muslim household. You know I was hearing Arabic, I was hearing French, I was hearing Mandingo, I was hearing English, african American, vernacular English, right, I was hearing all of these different things as a young girl growing up. And I grew up, you know, in the United States. You know, mainly we moved from place to place to place for a long time before we settled in Philadelphia so, and then I stayed and pretty much stayed there because I I, I guess I was tired of moving so much from childhood that I was like Philly is my place, philly is home. So I always call Philly my home, just because that was like the first place where I stayed for a long time.

Speaker 1:

I feel you. I'm in Duluth, minnesota, and we moved a lot growing up too, from Liberia to, you know, southern Illinois. So I feel you there, jamila. It's just, I'm here, I'm done, I'm done moving. I'm done, I'm done moving, I'll kill you. On that one I totally can resonate. And yes, that Mahaja, because where my tribe is from, the Vi people is right on that border. Yeah, and my, you know grandmother, she passed a few years back, but, Mahaja, you know. So when you said you know, no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think I've always appreciated the different sounds of language and different kinds of language and the kinds of language that are languages that are often not appreciated, you know. So now we get into, you know, blackness, right, and sometimes African language kinds of language and the kinds of language that are languages that are often not appreciated, you know. So now we get into, you know, blackness, right, and sometimes African language is not, you know, appreciated, and oftentimes, you know, black American language, you know, are the different kinds of language, all of our different variations of language, are not appreciated, and so that always is something that is sort of a sticking point in the back of my head. And I also remember, you know, growing up I had a sensitivity to people who have accents, because I remember growing up with people who had very thick accents, my mother had a very thick accent, her friends had very thick accents, accents and the kinds of discrimination, the kinds of ways that they were treated because they had these accents, particularly accents that came from African languages, right, that people were disrespectful of those things, and so I have a sensitivity and an ear for it, you know I also.

Speaker 2:

You know I, I kind of, I think I make a point at a point to really listen to people when they have a thick accent, to make it like you know what. You need to listen, you need to hear what they're saying and you need to give, make that space for them and give them the patience of that, because a lot of times we don't, and then there and then it also translates to. You know, when people speak um the different accents related to African American, vernacular English, right, that people often aren't respectful of that. It must mean a lack of education, it must mean a lack of intelligence. If your accent is thick, if it's not, if that person is not able to code, switch in the ways that are comfortable for you know a lot of people, then we, you know, automatically assign things to that instead of seeing it as just a facet of the beauty that you know that this is the beauty of our diversity, right Is that there are so many ways of speaking and so many ways of expressing language.

Speaker 2:

One of the things my mother used to joke about is because she learned English first from Liberians and she used to say you know you'll never speak English. You know, you know the way that you know Americans can understand if you learned your language from Liberians, because she used to roll the sounds together. Yes, she used to roll words together in ways that are very interesting and but I think they actually are pretty cool and I, you know, and I think that that actually lended itself to me becoming an author, because I appreciated it and I had a girlfriend in high school. I remember who's to do that. Sometimes she would start, you know she was, she talked, you know, spoke English perfectly fine, but every now and then she would get, like you know, excited or mad, or something.

Speaker 2:

And I would just be like you know, I know what she's saying, I can sit back and listen and hear it and appreciate it, but there's a beauty to it in that diversity. There's not a, you know, a reason to like, slam it, like this is wrong or this English doesn't sound right, it's not proper. There's a beauty to it. So I think I try to at least with students to appreciate. You know, to talk about the language, I remember when I used to teach Shakespeare, because I taught high school English, you know and.

Speaker 2:

I used to always start with the fact that there are so many variations of language. We need to, you know, and that this is a variation of English, right? And I would play a woman speaking Patois, you know, Jamaican Patois, you know. And I would say, you know, and I, Patois, you know, and I, and I would say you know, and I'd say, listen to her and just watch her and you can figure out what she's saying, even if you don't know Jamaican Patois, and it's very much the same as that, that English that was spoken by Shakespeare. We read it, we read it aloud. We really hear those sounds and those rhythms. We start to pick up the elements that are the shared of our language, right.

Speaker 1:

I love that.

Speaker 1:

I love that and how you talk about the biases where, you know, as educators we automatically assume this child is less than because you know their syntax is not how we were trained to speak and I just love how you and it just that juxtaposition of Jamaican, patois and Old English. We're already interpreting language. Why not showcase you know both of those realms. And, yeah, I always tell people you get me upset or excited. You'll hear that code switch of that Liberian English and I even get teased too, like they say you know you're kind of Siri, like you're kind of the watered down American eyes. So I know I know the room, but also what you touched on to training your ear, to hearing that.

Speaker 1:

I feel like you know learning how to be an active listener is so important and I feel like people that have those different vernacular would feel comfortable with you because you're so used to hearing those patterns that you stop, you pause, give that more patience, and I feel that the majority of us need to stop and pause and have that patience, you know, because, yeah, there is that that talk about. Certain accents are favored more than others, you know. And so, yeah, oh, we could talk all day about that, I know, I know. So what motivated you to become an author? The love of language. What else did you see, or lack thereof, that made you want to become an author?

Speaker 2:

I pretty much am someone who spent their life pushing down that urge to be a writer. I think I went many years. I knew as a young child I was like seven years old wanting to write stories, you know and I knew that I loved stories and I loved reading and I loved language, I love poetry, and it was something that I just kept returning to whenever life was challenging, whenever I just needed it. You know that it just I need to express something. I would, you know, write, you know, things on the side, write poetry. But I never really gave it my serious attention, right that, because I felt, you know that it just writing, wasn't a path that had a clear direction to me, like what do you do with this? What does your career become? You know, and my family was very working class, first generation college students, so I wanted to have a job that felt practical. This is how you make money. With this job, you get the, you know those kinds of things, and writing doesn't necessarily provide that. Clear like this is how you'll make money. This is the job you can get, although there are directions, but I didn't have that knowledge, so it wasn't until I was.

Speaker 2:

I had been a teacher for many years and I had my own young children and I was reading picture books to them that I realized first of all I'm in love with picture books, I'm in love with children's books. This is really a beautiful art form. You know, I had never thought about it until I became a parent and had to read them regularly with my kids. This is an art form. You know, this is pretty brilliant. The way that some of these authors are putting together or telling these stories with such a limited amount of text, the way that they are playing with you know, the images play with the text. This is very clever and really cool.

Speaker 2:

And I remember, you know, after I'd put my kids to bed, after, you know, reading to them, sometimes I'd want to go back to a book and look at it some more and read it to myself, and I'd want to. Or I'd say to my kids you know they say, look, do you want to read it again? I'd be like yeah, because I'd get so excited. I was reading in, like these different voices and characters, I was so excited about it and I would be into it. Or I'd be more excited about a book and then they'd be like, yo, we should read this book and they'd be like more and more books, though I was finding a lack.

Speaker 2:

I was finding a dearth of books about Muslim kids, about Black kids, black boys. I wasn't finding any books about Black Muslim kids. That was just like not there in the time that I had, you know, starting to get, you know, develop this interest. It was in 2015. And I, like, I'm finding these books and I wanted those books for my kids, and I then just kind of said, you know, maybe I should start writing these books, and I did, you know from there, that's where it went, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'm so happy you did. And you're right, you know writing children's books is an art form. You know writing children's books is an art form and that's something I aspire to do in the future. But just how you you are a poet, I'm just going to say it and how you create your characters, you have a light on your characters in a positive way and it teaches kids, even in the classroom.

Speaker 1:

I could see this when I had a classroom, when I found your books was after I was done teaching. So I was like, oh man, that's why I started the podcast. It's like you've got to get her books, because you teach your characters in a way for educators to read about kids that are Black and Muslim. It teaches them that they exist. It teaches them their family dynamics in a positive way. So you know, we'll talk more about sister friend in just a bit, but I just wanted to thank you for that, because your books of showing the rituals of families, that you have a classmate or even if you don't have a classmate that is Muslim, they can understand. This is what their families do and hold dear, and I thank you how you interpret it. I thank you how you have names for them to practice. That you don't hear very often and you, like I said my dear, I was so excited to have you on the podcast because I could hear you all day and go. Okay, you know Corgelli Musu, and with your sister friend, what message do you want your educators to learn from sister friend?

Speaker 1:

Because it talks about these two characters Amina and is it Sundas? Yes, and I really love how you write about how Amina is just tooling along. She's, you know, doing her own thing and she's showing us that no one in her class looks like her. She's showing us that no one's you know bringing her into play but she's doing her own thing. And when she sees somebody that looks like her, that wears the hijab, and the reaction Sundas has. I could see other Muslim, black Muslim kids that have the hijab, their initial, you know, like back off kind of a thing, and how you know. I don't want to give away too much because I want everyone to get this book, but you could see the lived experience of Black Muslim girls, especially of how somebody declares, oh, you're Muslim, and that reaction of protection of themselves. So that's what I got out of this book. But tell me more, what do you want our educators to know when they're reading this story?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so Sister Friend is a story that is semi-autobiographical and it was a story that sort of gnawed at me that I didn't, I almost didn't want to tell it. It was kind of a challenging story, right, because it was about a challenging time for me as a very young girl and so I almost didn't want to tell it. And going to school visits and seeing students, often in visits you know, I visit a lot of schools and often I'll see a child who's sort of sitting apart from the others, who, for whatever reason you can tell, they're different in some way right, it doesn't have to be different in the ways that I'm different, but they are different in some way and they're not really being included. And so, seeing that again and again sort of gnawing at me to tell this story of, you know, really, my first grade experience, my first few months of first grade, I remember going to this school where I was the only Black girl in my class and no one would speak to me. And there was, and that was the first year that I recognized it and it took me some time to get it but I recognized. Oh, they don't want to talk to me because I'm black, my hair is like this my skin color is like this and no one else has this hair and no one else has this skin color is like this and no one else has this hair and no one else has this skin color. And so that's a sort of a challenging story to tell, and that's kind of why I was sort of like I don't know if I want to tell this story, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

But the thing is, it's such a universal story for a lot of people, right, of that feeling even in that we can't, really we don't, we're not always able to protect our youngest kids from those feelings of being excluded for whatever reason, right For race, for gender, for religion, for, for whatever things that are going on, you know, in their school, for disability, right. So, um, it was. It's a story that a lot of people have told me they could connect to because they, they, they had that experience, they knew what that was like to be the only whatever Right In the class and for everyone to make their personality, their identity about being the only Right.

Speaker 2:

Yes and I didn't, yes and I didn't. But one thing I didn't want to do was to make the story about the young girl, amina, then proving to all of the others they should accept her Right. I didn't want to do that because that's kind of a trope. That sort of happens a lot in children's books, it's like you know, and then they become sort of the good guys. In that scenario I wanted you know her to, because a lot of times that's what happens is we find people in our in groups, right, you know, we stop being the only. We find someone, right. So I wanted that to happen.

Speaker 2:

But another thing that I wanted to happen is I wanted there to be a recognition that the other kids in the class miss out. There to be a recognition that the other kids in the class miss out, yes, and. And so I am hoping that in in conversations that teachers have with their students about the books, it's, it's, you know, that people that they are recognizing that they're pointing that these kids are missing out on the fun they could have had with, you know, sunderson and Mina. Hopefully they will try to include those girls in their games and they will try to. You know, make friends with those girls. Maybe they'll play their games, but they're missing out, right? There is an interesting point that Zora Neale Hurston and I don't have the quote in front of me, but she used to say that you know discrimination, right, that it doesn't. It's not so much that it's taking away from her, is that you know white people are losing, you know the out on having the experience of her presence of her company right.

Speaker 2:

Like you lose out on something. So when you exclude someone, when you exclude a child, like, oh well, this child, you know, you know, has maybe, you know they don't have both their legs, they have prosthetics or whatever like that, and you're like I can't, you know, and so we're going to exclude them, you are losing out on what that child has to offer, because I feel like every kid in that classroom has something to offer, something special. So I'm hoping that in conversations that teachers are talking about that, like how we can lose out on relationships, on seeing the light of those kids, because we're just making judgments on well, if you don't look like me, then you can't be my friend, or if you don't talk like me, then you can't be my friend, and that's not the way to look at it. And and I'm hoping that there's also recognition from teachers of who is not being included, right, so noticing, starting to notice who's who's being excluded and left out in the same way, yes, oh, I love that.

Speaker 1:

And and just how you said, you know they got together and it's like, yeah, you missed out on that light. You know, and I think too, when you talked about in the book some of the old guard of procedures that we have, you know you gotta be in that straight lunch line and you know I did, as elementary school teachers, sit at your assigned seats but then no one's. You know, conversing, no one's talking, and those are the things that we need to disrupt to get those lights of everyone, you know, in the classroom. I highly recommend that for our educators moving forward. But yeah, this is an amazing book, this is an amazing book. And when you write these books, jamila, how do you want even families to learn from you in these books? We talked about the educator hat. How about families that just pick up these books and read it to their kids at night? Any advice for them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, sure, I think. So One thing I'm hoping I always start with the black Muslim family, right, that is my like sort of center. And then I want to you know, tracy Sorrell, a Cherokee author, talks about this the concentric circles, right, that you have, you know. You know this is first we start with that child in mind. Then we start going out to other kids who are excluded, or maybe black kids or Muslim kids you know other kids who can relate to these experiences, who have, you know and then all kids in general, right, that they can connect to it. And so when I think about families, I first am thinking about that family that needs that representation, right, that family, you know. When you think about your name as a song, right, that family of a child who needs to know that their name is beautiful, right, and that there's lots of thought to it and that it deserves to be sung, it deserves to be respected. So it starts with them first.

Speaker 2:

And then I think I want families to then have conversations about. You know those things, right, those differences. So if, even if you're not in the group, so if you have a name, like you know, amy, right, you know, and your child or your child has a name like Amy, right. And but then having a conversation when you're reading a book like your Name is a Song about, well, how do we, you know, how do we treat people, or how do we think about names that are unusual for us, right, how do we you know about, well, you know, how do you think they feel being excluded? Or, you know, should we decide that someone can't be a good friend because they looked, their skin color is different or their hair is different or they wear something that we don't wear, you know, can these people still be friends for us? So I want them to start having those conversations as well.

Speaker 1:

Oh, love that. And I also love how each of your books because you know, teacher to teacher, we know we got lesson plans for everything you know, and I love how you have educational tools and resources that teachers, parents can download and use those guided questions to talk and discuss in depth. You know, with school around the corner and this episode will be, you know, airing in the fall, mid-september you can create these conversations to start, you know, I love how the order of your name is a song, how beautiful it is that you created, and then that sister friend is a perfect element next, okay, now we know our name and the beauty. Now how do we make everyone feel like they belong and not miss out on their light? And, oh, jamila, I could talk to you all day, my new friend. So where can we find you online? Because I want to share your work and your resources to the masses. So, yes, share with us. Where can we find you?

Speaker 2:

Sure, I mean, jamilatheritercom is the best place to go. I have educator resources because, yes, I always start off as an educator. Educator resources because, yes, I always start off as an educator and a lot of times my books I'm thinking about how to care for children in school spaces, in the books, so they lend themselves to a lot of the kinds of lesson plans. So definitely go to JamilaTheWritercom, go to JamilaTheWritercom, slash educators, but you can also just link to it from that main page and you'll find the resources. And I love adding teacher resources. So if you have resources, even teachers that you're like, could I share this with, with the masses? You know I, you know I like to link to those things so people have access to read alouds to. You know all kinds of activities for sister friend, there are, like you know, different activities getting to know you, activities, to kind of bring your, your class together and get them, you know, talking to each other. So those are the best ways.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, jamila. And yes, I'll have all of Jamila's resources and social media handles in the description below. And that's what we have for today on the Culture Curriculum Chat podcast and Mrs Edmond's Cultural Corner to speak with us today and I have a feeling we're going to cross paths in the future, you know. So you can sign my books because, honey, I got a lot of. I have a whole Jamila shelf.

Speaker 2:

I'm a huge fan.

Speaker 1:

So thank you. Thank you for the work you do and for you know, amplifying those voices of our Black and Muslim students in our community. I really appreciate the work that you're doing. So, students in our community, I really appreciate the work that you're doing.

Speaker 2:

So thank you and we'll see you all here same time next week.

Speaker 1:

Bye-bye, bye.