Cultural Curriculum Chat with Jebeh Edmunds

Season 6 Episode #9 Embracing Change: Jamia Wilson on Literature, Activism, and Empowering the Next Generation

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Join us for an inspiring conversation with Jamia Wilson, a remarkable social justice activist, writer, and vice president of Random House. We unpack her unique global upbringing and how it ignited her mission to use literature as a bridge between diverse cultures. Jamia shares insights from her celebrated book "Young, Gifted and Black," created with illustrator Andrea Pippins, which empowers young readers by spotlighting influential figures of African heritage. As she recounts her journey from the Middle East to boarding school in the U.S., Jamia challenges us to embrace new experiences and dismantle cultural biases, demonstrating the transformative power of embracing change.

Ever felt overwhelmed by the thought of starting a big project? Jamia offers a refreshing perspective on overcoming such intimidation by breaking tasks into bite-sized steps, much like her metaphorical plunge into the icy Atlantic waters in Ireland. We also explore her upcoming book "Make Good Trouble: Discover Movements that Spark Change," designed to inspire readers of all ages to engage with social movements. Inspired by her late mother's activism, Jamia's message is clear: question, grow, and discover your unique way to make a difference. Tune in for a celebration of young change-makers and a call to action to step into your power.

Learn More: www.jamiawilson.org 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back listeners and viewers Jeba Edmonds here to the Cultural Curriculum Chat Podcast and Mrs Edmonds Cultural Corner. And in the guest chair today we have social justice activist, writer, podcaster, editor and vice president of Random House in the house today, ms Jamia Wilson. Welcome, jamia.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be with you today and just really grateful for all the work that you do in the world.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, thank you. So I was telling listeners and viewers that you know, being an educator for over 20 years before I, you know, became an entrepreneur, I was sharing my love of her literature with my fifth grade students and during Black History Month and throughout the year, we would take out this book Young, gifted and Black that she wrote and had Andrea Pippins illustrate of all of these trailblazers of African heritage throughout the world and really gave students the way to see themselves in the present and learning about someone and their biography and how they can go into the future. So we're going to dive in more about Jamia's life, how her story came about and how she is using her voice and her courage to inspire others. So let's get into it, jamia.

Speaker 2:

Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Thank you so much. I am so excited that these books resonate with you. I am an author, an editor, podcaster, speaker and activist.

Speaker 2:

I have grown up around the world.

Speaker 2:

I consider myself a former expat kid, so I'm originally from the United States, american South in the Carolinas, but I moved to Saudi Arabia when I was very young just starting first grade, actually so my experiences growing up abroad and my formative years and then coming back to the United States to go to boarding school while my parents were still living in the Middle East were really instructive to me about the future.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to have art, creating messages that could resonate with people around the world, because books and language were something I learned at a young age, integral to making bridges for understanding between people, and so one of the things that I've loved about my career that has crossed many different paths of activism and writing and editing and creating content across platforms and education too I was also a professor at John Jay was just the love of knowledge and then being able to create opportunities to share knowledge, to get knowledge and connect.

Speaker 2:

I took a personality test once that told me that I'm someone who likes to take in as much as I like to put out. And that was a moment when I felt really seen that it said oh, you're, you know, a strategic thinker, was one of the things, was the top thing. And then it says you're also a communicator who likes to take in as much as you like to take out. And that says a lot to me because I definitely think I am someone who observes culture a lot and listens a lot and I'm also someone who then likes to sort of synthesize what I hear and weave and be a weaver of that. So that's what sort of brought me to this book and that opportunity to write a love letter to the next generation. I consider Andrea also very much a storytelling partner in this book, that I was telling the story with the words and she was telling the story with the photos and the pictures and the lines and all of it.

Speaker 1:

And, yeah, we'll have information of inventors all interwoven and how, like you said, andrea, takes what you've written on paper and translate it in something vibrant and positive. So many of us when we're thinking about teaching African-American history in everyday life a lot of the tropes you see, a lot of the caricatures and it just does not work. You know in our society and how you took that power and to show that to all of our students and I love it, it could be middle grades. You have a book we're going to talk about in a little bit too. That's coming up next year.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, you know, I've been researching.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I'm so excited. I love that you know. Oh, honey, I, like you said, how you absorb and you you reflect and you share it. That's me. We are just one in the same. It must be the J names, but we're. You know, I love that.

Speaker 2:

I'm in a family of J's and they are like this and my dad's a J. That's why I'm a J.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that, jamia, and you're right, just how you. As much information as you have, you have to share it out. It's something that you just can't keep to yourself, right, and I think that is really good of what you're working on. Another question that you were sharing about coming back to the United States and boarding school while your family was still in the Middle East how was that, as far as like a learner of trying to dispel and disrupt those myths, especially, you know, when you lived in the Middle East and coming back to the States as a student and as a community member.

Speaker 2:

I think about it now and sometimes I think about how I wish I could have told my younger self how proud I was of her for being so brave to do new things, to try new things, to put myself out there and meet new people. And I think some of it was sort of total immersion. Total immersion was sort of the way that I was raised. You know my parents were saying oh, we're going to go take a couple of years and go to Saudi Arabia. That turned from two years to a decade. You know, we're going to take you on these adventures around the world where we travel. There was. I was very much raised in an environment where I was included in whatever the family was doing, included in the conversations about the big issues, including. I write in some of my books about how if there was a kid's table, I wanted to go to the adult table and hear what they were talking about, and so I feel that some of that has really shaped where I am now, because I was put in a position to have to really assert myself, have to be used to this comfort sometimes of being underestimated or being misunderstood or even having people be curious about you being different because of those dynamics, or even having people be curious about you being different because of those dynamics and at the time, even though sometimes those things were really painful, they've really helped me gain some other strengths and so I think about that a lot.

Speaker 2:

During the Gulf War we had to come back to the United States and were evacuated out of Saudi Arabia for a time and I had to go back to school in South Carolina, to the elementary school my mom had gone to and that my great aunt had been the first Black woman principal of. And I just learned this year that connection has connected me to an author who I'm working with who went to that same school and we figured that out after we even got together. So I think a lot about how I like to see it, as sort of divine guidance and being able to trust and surrender. That is how I live my life. If I feel something deep in my intuition and honing my truth and I really work on that and if I feel the propelling of a divine force, I will lean into it. Some people call that other things, but I like to look at it as that and my therapist has, and I like to name that because I think it's a very healthy thing for people to do around stigma sometimes in our community about saying that I go to therapy. So that's why I want whomever's listening to know I go to therapy. My therapist has said you say yes to things.

Speaker 2:

So I think that the other part of what I feel is a divine guidance or the surrender to the flow which is very much a part of how I sort of operate, and being thrust into those environments where, oh, nobody here knows the same language I speak. They are speaking another language. I need to go, learn how to understand, I need to figure out some way to adapt and engage and connect and relate those things that were uncomfortable and for me, even coming back to the United States and then during the Gulf War, realizing, oh, I have to do that again because my time away has made me so different from my classmates who think that I'm strange because I'm speaking differently. I don't have a Southern accent because I had been raised abroad, but I am exactly like you. I just have this other thing I'm having to reintegrate back into this country and decide what it means for me to say I am both and I am an American but I am an expatriate experience. I am of the global majority, but I also have this passport privilege. I am Black and African, but I'm also African American.

Speaker 2:

That comes from these other things and realizing that those things don't actually make us separate. They actually give us important nuances and context with which to understand, empathize and connect and build with other people, but then to see how those differences help. And I've just really chosen to lean all the way into those things, and it hasn't always been easy. But as my therapist says, I'm just thinking I love her but, yes, I say lots of things. Today, someone gave me something to read that they're thinking about. That's in French, and I was so excited to read this for a colleague because I've been taking French since I was eight. I'm not a perfect French speaker or reader, but it's a language I love and I've been committed to learning and evolving in and operating in for many years, and having books in French has been a dream come true for me too. And yet I thought, oh, this is a fruit now of saying yes to this language, that for a while I thought it was saying no to me. It was saying no to me for a long time.

Speaker 2:

The commitment of continuing to come back to it, and saying yes to something that I just thought was a new was going to help me grow. So that's what I want for readers of my books, too, is to know it's okay to say yes, it's okay to be different. It's actually good to have your own point of view, your own experience, and that you can still connect with others, and it's a good for other people to be different and have different ideas and contexts and different cultures from you too, and different languages.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I love that, Jamia, and, like you said, the immersion, being comfortable with being uncomfortable, learning new things, and that I feel like it helps with your inner power of being there, taking up space, asking those questions, knowing yeah, I'm not quite sure, and it's okay not to be sure of things. Right, and I think, with my love of multicultural education and showcasing your work and other BIPOC authors' works of all walks of life, is to let people be immersed into that work and to understand that there's some things that we have in our unconscious biases that we have to put down and relearn something and challenge ourselves. You know and that is just amazing Now, when I was talking about with the question of you know how you talked about you know your experiences here as a student, expatriate, global citizen. What are ways that educators can learn from you? Any advice to have them step out of their comfort zone that you would like to share with them?

Speaker 2:

Some advice I was once given was to baby step it first. So sometimes when we think, oh, step out of your comfort zone. We live in a culture and I'm speaking to the US culture right now because that's where we both are the dominant US culture tells us, oh, if you're going to try out of your comfort zone, it's usually saying something like go, bungee, jump, go do something that is visible and visibly powerful in a certain kind of way. And my perspective on this is that you know to take a baby step in a new direction or to course correct. And maybe it's because I'm an editor, also in my craft, where I think, oh, a really rightly placed semicolon can change the whole world of meaning, of how something lands Right, how something lands right. But I think that it's actually very powerful and very sharp and very clear and very discerning to step out of your comfort zone by baby stepping into it first. Put that toe in the water. So much of our culture is saying, oh, you need to just dive in head first, and sometimes, if you practice that, that could be something that you know the total immersion is what drives you and lights you up. Great, but for some of us, sometimes we need to put our toe in the water and then we put our leg in the water and then we submerge ourselves and then we're ready to swim. And for me, it just trying to sort of go in and soft and smooth in a way that feels like okay, I did that and I feel good and I tried something new and I want to know if I can take another step has really been something that has worked for me.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes, when people say I just can't write a book I can't imagine writing a book, but I know I want to do one I say what if I asked you to write 200 words every day? And if they say, oh, that feels like too much? What if I asked you to write a letter to yourself about the idea you want to get out in the book? That's 100 words every day for a week. At the end of the week, if you took two days off, you'll have 500 words and then you can go back the next week. So it's really about how you're thinking of it. Yes, it'll take you longer to write the book, but at the end you still get a book. So it's okay to baby step it, it's okay to put the toe in or to totally immerse. I mean I was thinking about I like to sort of put the baby toe in. It's the way I prefer.

Speaker 2:

And then sometimes life likes to totally immerse and I've had that experience in March where I went to Ireland for the first time and I was on this retreat with a lot of other women for the somatic dance group I'm in and I was daring myself to cold plunge because I am someone who likes to do one thing that scares me every day, every year. And I went and that's just about evolution and growing, and not scared in a dangerous way, but scared in a oh, something that I'm afraid to do because it might mean I'm powerful, it might mean I'm strong. And I went and they were all getting ready to go do this cold plunge in Ireland and freezing cold water in the Atlantic in March, and I decided that I was going to go in a little bit baby step it. And then when I thought I was going to be the last one and I said, oh, you know, y'all are going to go over there and you're going to do it and I'm going to watch and see how everyone does and figure out if it's going to be me and I started baby stepping it and other one else was out there. And then suddenly I start to walk out and I realize, oh, I'm getting just one step and one foot in front of the other, one foot in front of the other, and I get there and next thing I know I trip on some sort of reef or something that's in there. That makes me land face first into this cold ocean.

Speaker 2:

And when I came up, the other women on my retreat came. They're surrounding me, saying are you okay? And I said that was the most exhilarating feeling I've ever had. Now I know why people do this. I used to think that it was completely bonkers to want to go swim in a freezing ocean and now I know why people do this. But oh, this is now time for me to go and get in the sauna and then I'm going to come in and do it again. And so I share that to say I just had that experience for myself too that sometimes the baby stepping it can help prepare you for when you get totally immersed and how you are going to be in your body and be in your presence and be in your experience.

Speaker 1:

I love that, jamia, and you're right, all the things and you will trip. But even that trip can be exhilarating Like oh wow. Sometimes I needed that divine trip.

Speaker 2:

It was the freshest water, it woke me up because I used to say, oh, this is not for me you know, I am equatorial, I am not here trying to do this but something was calling for me to go to Ireland because it's such a literary place, it has such beauty, the music, there's something that really was speaking to me.

Speaker 2:

And then I went and I found what I was looking for, but not what I thought I was looking for, but something that sort of found me there and through the experiences that the environment reminded me of myself that this is a very naturally and nature driven place and surroundings. I was in the Northern, most part of the Republic of Ireland, so it was just really a wake up call for me too that, oh, sometimes you have to baby step. I babysat myself to get there. I kept thinking, you know why are you in Ireland? I thought you know Cancun is more your speed, but I just sort of put the foot in front of the other that I wanted and I wanted to try something different and, um, I went and did it multiple times and actually, um was cold water, swimming the whole trip and hiking and doing some outdoor things that are not typically me and loved it, and I want to do it again.

Speaker 1:

Wow, okay, I'm going to have to take that challenge.

Speaker 1:

Jimmy because we've had a cabin on the lake and even when it's 90 degrees, I'm like, no, I'm just going to read my book on the dock, yes, but I I feel inspired to try something new in cold plunge. I live right by Lake Superior. It's about it's already cold, I can just plunge in there this afternoon. It's about it's already cold, I can just plunge in there this afternoon. I should do that, oh my goodness. So before we go, please share with us your new book. It's coming February 2025. For our middle grade readers, like I would say, sixth through eighth grade, even adults, I mean, I love how you write. It's very readable, you can come away with something inspiring, but it is called Make Good Trouble, discover Movements that Spark Change, and that's going to be published in a few months. Oh my gosh. Please give us a little preview, a little something.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, so I love that you brought this up. I'm really excited about this book and really proud of it. I had the vision for this book several years ago. I was really deeply moved by John Edwards and what he was able to do to become a congressman, but starting out in his activism as a teen a spiritual activist, leader, connector, bridge builder of all people in the civil rights movement and when he passed away, I really wanted to do something to continue to lift up his legacy. And then I was also really moved by a Twitter post that he'd written that was based on some of his speeches and words that he'd also given, where he said before his death that our struggle is not the struggle of a day, a week, a month or a year. It's the struggle of a lifetime.

Speaker 2:

Never be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble, and I feel that being a good troublemaker has been very definitive in my life. You know I'm an easygoing, sort of balanced, loving person who also has been characterized by many in love and other ways as defiant and disruptive, because I'm always asking questions and I wanted young people who want to make a difference in the world, who want to see that there's actually been a long, storied history of young people making their voices heard worldwide in different ways, to know that they are a part of something bigger. And this book is not just about taking action, which is a big part of it. It's about having the knowledge of those who came before us to help inform the future, to know that we are building on a foundation of things that people did in the past. To know that we can have different beliefs, different ages, different abilities, styles of leaderships, different approaches and theories of change, but that we can all be connected and united in claiming the power that we do have to make a change in our communities, big and small. And so for me, being able to team up with the amazing illustrators who worked on this book, our amazing editor and the editorial team that we had at DK, to come together and say, hey, these historic moments were actually exciting. Here's visual elements that show you what people were doing, that you know, a world that you might think happened in black and white, because that's what the TV shows let you see were happening in full color and full dynamic movement.

Speaker 2:

We have no idea how you could be a part of it and also to show that making a difference doesn't always have to look the same way. Sometimes people feel like, oh every, I can't make a difference because I'm not someone who wants to march in the streets and carry a sign, and that is one effective way to make your voice heard. But there are so many other stories of people having their voices heard, raising their voices, standing for themselves and others, uplifting community, uplifting ideas and making sure that justice and equality reign. That range from writing, using art, speaking. We really go in. We are going in to show that there are many ways and many paths to making your voice heard, and you can maybe even innovate your own and a new one, and we also give a further reading guide so that they can continue to read other perspectives. What I really hope to do with this book, too, is I have always believed in the intelligence of readers of all ages is to have readers also be able to be challenged wherever they are, and to say you might not agree with every movement we've approached here. You might not agree with every stance that young people at that time were taking in the movements they were either leading or supporting or helping drive, but you might be able to take something from what they did or the spirit of it, to inform how you're going to show up or how you see why people did something historically and why you might do something different, and so that's a big part of what was really driving me. And then also my late mom, who was an amazing human being educator, clinician, speech pathologist, but also an activist very active in the civil rights movement, taught me a great deal, and this book is very much in the spirit of her. Others have met her in some of my other books. So you've probably, if you've read my other books, you've met Willa Alfreda Wilson, dr Maugh Mom.

Speaker 2:

She also appears in this book because she was very much a part of why I wanted to write it, because she really, really showed me very young that I could be a part of the conversation, a part of the change. She would always ask me to step into your power, and I have a book that has that title. But you know, I will admit it sometimes frustrated me that I'd say, okay, what are you going to do to fix this thing? Mom? This thing's happening, this person's bullying me, this thing that happened at school is not fair. This thing I'm seeing is not this way, and she'd always say, okay, we'll step into your power, what are you going to do about it? And I'd say, somebody else's mom is fixing it. I need to fix this for me.

Speaker 2:

But now when I come back and look at it, she really helped drive that instinct in me to question, to change my mind, to think critically. There were sometimes some ideas that I had when I was younger that weren't fully baked yet because I didn't have context, and she would never say you can't have that idea because it's wrong. It would usually come back with a question of well, why is that? Have you thought about this or do you know about this other thing? And now, what do you think? Now that you have this other layer of information and that kind of critical thought, I think has really helped me form how I see the world and how it continues to evolve, and that's what I really want for young readers.

Speaker 2:

I would say this is one of the most rewarding writing experiences I've ever had Just learning about the brilliance and courage of young people worldwide. And these are just 70 stories. There's so many more seen and unseen, unsung heroes as well in the world that you know. Maybe in the future we'll end up in a book, but these were just ones that really moved me and I'm hoping especially as we're now in a time of book banning and censorship that's happening in the United States but also worldwide with the rise of authoritarianism that we would have more of an opportunity to talk about what it would mean to actually let young people express themselves.

Speaker 2:

What can we learn? How can it create a better society? Because history has shown us that it can actually when we listen to the young people. That's why the book came about and I'm just really excited. I think my dream of dreams would be to have young people engage with this book with adults in their life and talk about okay, what is the thing we're going to do to address a challenge we see in the world or something we want to uplift? We have Marley Diaz in the book to talk about her campaign for reading and getting more people to read. So there's a wide range Some of the things people think about traditionally as activism around climate justice and then also cultural campaigns as well. So I'm very excited to see what you think when it comes out as well.

Speaker 1:

I can't wait to get my hands on that copy of that book. I mean, this is amazing and I love how you talk about having those critical conversations, because you can't have a movement without that critical conversation. And, like you said, if your thing is not protesting, I always say there's multiple lanes on a highway. If that's not your lane darling, you can do writing campaign, you can boycott. There's multiple lanes on a highway. If that's not your lane darling, you can do a writing campaign, you can boycott. There's so many things you could do. Be a kinder neighbor that moves things going forward. Chimia, I could talk to you all day, my dear. I feel like we are literacy sisters from another mister and I feel like I can't wait to continue getting to know you in the future and continue to support your work. So where can we find you, ms Jamia?

Speaker 2:

Thank you, and I'm going to definitely be looking for you when I make my way to Minnesota. I was just thinking one of the last times I was there, I had one of the best soul food meals I'd ever had, and I had it in Minnesota food meals I'd ever had, and I had it in Minnesota and I was really excited about that. But you can find me at jamiawilsonorg, wwwjamiawilsonorg, or on Instagram at jamiaawilson, and yes, I'm just, I'm really excited. I saw on your beautiful website that you also dance, which also made me really happy because I also love to dance and the community that I went to Ireland with we dance together. I try to do every day, every day, and we are in a community of people who do a practice called Koya.

Speaker 2:

My friend, rochelle Sheik, developed. That is beautiful somatic dancing, and it comes from this idea, that is, that through our bodies, we remember that we are wild and free, and so when I was reading about you and your work, I just love that too, because I think the spirit of this book is also I want young people to really understand that they can embody sovereignty, and that's why this book, when you see it, you'll see that it has movement in it. You see the movement, you see people moving and walking and dancing in joy, because I really feel like, in order for us to create a more free world, we have to have all of that integrated. So I wanted to say I love that in terms of being sisters in literacy, sisters in moving our bodies and dancing, and sisters in the dance.

Speaker 2:

That's it.

Speaker 1:

The dance of moving forward. Oh, this was just an honor to interview you. Thank you for letting me send you that DM. I'm a big fan of your work. But yeah, so, friends, I will have all of the information where you can purchase Jamia Wilson's books. It should be in every classroom, library and every home. To be honest, I always say, with Black History Month, I always talk about I call it the fabulous four Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman. I'm like there's no excuse. Got almost a hundred, over a hundred, of these individuals your students can learn from. So thank you again, listeners, we will see you here same time next week. Bye-bye.