Season 9 Episode #11 The Hidden Weight of Leadership: What Authority Really Costs with Reverend Kevin T. Taylor

In this powerful episode of The Cultural Curriculum Chat Podcast™, Jebeh Edmunds sits down with Rev. Kevin T. Taylor—pastor, leadership advisor, and author of A Charge to Keep.

Together, they explore what leadership truly looks like behind the scenes—the weight of difficult decisions, the cost of integrity, and the responsibility that comes with authority.

This conversation dives into leadership, faith, organizational pressure, and the courage it takes to act with clarity when it matters most.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• What leaders carry that others rarely see
• How integrity can come with real personal and professional costs
• Why hesitation can damage organizations
• How to move from pressure and uncertainty to clarity and action

If you want to stay connected with Rev. Kevin T. Taylor, you can find him at:
🌐 https://calendly.com/revkttaylor

Transcript

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Jebeh Edmunds 0:25

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat podcast, the show where we explore culture, leadership, and lived experiences that shape our communities, classrooms, and institutions. I'm your host, Jebba Edmonds, educator, consultant, and creative. Culturally responsive materials and resources for educators and leaders. Today's conversation is one that every leader, educator, and decision maker needs to hear. Leadership often looks inspiring from the outside. Titles, the vision and the influence, but what people rarely see are the difficult decisions leaders carry quietly, the institutional pressures that they face, and the real cost of acting with integrity. Our guest today is Reverend Kevin T. Taylor, a pastor, leadership advisor, and author of a charge to keep a book exploring the real weight of authority and the decisions leaders must carry alone. Kevin has spent years serving in ministry, executive leadership, and organizational governance. Helping leaders think more clearly about responsibility, courage, and the stewardship of influence. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin Taylor 1:48

Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me. And hello to all of your podcast listeners.

Jebeh Edmunds 1:53

Oh, thank you. And let's just start from the very beginning. What inspired your path into leadership, ministry, and organizational transformation?

Kevin Taylor 2:03

So I think it's, um, I, I think the scripture is true that, um, your gifts will make room for you. And, um, I've always been the type of person where I've, um, I've tried to sit in the, in the, in the back and observe, uh, and not be the one to be called on to lead. And then ultimately. Um, something, um, stirs inside of me and, um, I speak up and, and then, you know, if you have those kind of ideas, then we want you to be, the this or the that. And so that is, uh, that has been, uh, my de discovery, uh, of, of leadership. But I, in the seventh grade, I was the, um, the black student, union president. In the fourth grade, I was the vice president of the. Um, of the student council. So I, I've been doing this, uh, for, uh, for a long time, both at church and in, uh, and in my work. And so I'm, I'm delighted, uh, to be able to share in my book, um, from both my pastoral experience and my C-level experience, uh, because I do believe that leadership is lonely. Um, but I want for leaders to know that you don't have to be alone.

Jebeh Edmunds 3:04

Oh, I love that. And you would've been a star student. 'cause I was a former classroom teacher. I'm like, what? Vice president in, you know, fourth grade. I love it. And you enjoyed that being voluntold, like wow. People saw something in you. And that's why you said yes. This is the charge that you have in your purpose. Absolutely.

Kevin Taylor 3:22

Absolutely.

Jebeh Edmunds 3:23

I love that. And you're right, people, when they are in these leadership roles, it does seem lonely. You know, you kind of feel like you're in that rock between the hard place of Well, I do make those decisions, you know, when I see the balance sheet, you know, in corporate or in, I see something, you know, in my, in my, um, ministry. I have to make those hard decisions. So I feel that, you know, but what can we talk about when it's the hidden weight of leadership? You know, what do you mean about that? About how that authority carries a weight that most people don't see.

Kevin Taylor 4:00

So, I think we can tackle it in multiple parts. And I so pulled the thread that you just began. Uh, about, uh, about being lonely and making those decisions. So one of the things as leaders is that you often don't know who's actually in your corner and you don't know if they're in your corner because they want something or they're in your corner because they are truly invested in your, um, best interest. And so, um. So it's, so it's, so it's difficult to determine whether or not the people that you're talking to are truly trustworthy. And if you, you know, if your spouse is not necessarily in the same business that you are in, uh, unfortunately mine is, or if you, um, if you are in a position where there aren't people that you can talk to, you then have to, think through what you can say. You have to, um, you're not able to, to filter your words, not able to share with everything. And then that makes it hard to be able to navigate because you can't give all the details. And so, particularly as a pastor, uh, you don't ever want for someone to be able to use what you said against you. Uh, and you don't want that to then be weaponized in the future. And so you don't know. Who's in your corner. And so it can be lonely in being able to just describe what has happened and to be able to get an honest perspective about how you might choose to respond. And so that's, so that's, that's one way is just you don't know who you can trust and who you can talk with. Another way is. That people actually don't know the circumstances behind all of the decisions. And so it's much easier on, uh, on Monday morning to be able to say that the quarterback should have run this play. And if the coach had made that call, then the team would've won. And so that sounds great on, on Monday, but you weren't on the field to know what the defense looked like. You weren't there when it was, uh, and when the decision, so you weren't aware of all that went into the conversation. And also there are some things that you are not allowed to know for HIPPA, for other, um, things because look, particularly for HR matters, you wouldn't want your business to be told. And so I can't tell somebody else's business simply because you feel that you have a right to know. And so, like, those are the types of things that people don't appreciate, that like, I'm carrying more information than you know, and I can't tell you how bad things might have been. But I, I have to have you trust me that when I tell you that this is the direction we have to move in, that I did so not of my own free will, but from a place of, um, of confidence and of understanding of what the situation is. And so, uh, you know, as a pastor, one of my favorite songs is We'll understand it better by and by. And so buy, buy may not come for you when you want for it to come. But, but, but I need you to know that there is, there are things in the background that are operating that you're just unaware of.

Jebeh Edmunds 6:50

Yeah. Oh my goodness. And thank you for painting the picture of both sides of your life as a pastor. And like you said, working in that corporate setting, especially in the medical field with HIPPA, you know, they see the bird's eye view too, with the defense and this, and like, oh, I would've done that, but it's like, oh, you have no idea what's going on in the background. You're not on the field, you're not. Seeing all the elements that are happening all at once. Wow. That is really, really intense. And wow, I tip my hat to you. What kinds of decisions are leaders often carrying quietly? And you gave some really good examples. Can you think of one example for, um, you know, educators that are also listening in that you know, their supervisor, their principal?, You know, what are some kinds of things that you think that we want transparency, but again, with that confidentiality behind it? Yeah.

Kevin Taylor 7:47

And so I think. So, um, so, so I am, uh, I spent 10 and a half years in the charter school space. So I, um, you know, came into finance to leadership. I was a CEO of a, of a charter school. Um,

Jebeh Edmunds 8:00

oh, you get it.

Kevin Taylor 8:01

I, so, I, so I understand this question. Um, yeah, the charter school that I, um, managed to actually been unionized three months before I joined, and for your listeners who are not familiar with charters, charters and unions don't typically go together. Now I'm a union child. Both my mom and dad, sisters and teacher and teacher's union. So like, I get it. Um, yeah. But here we are negotiating with the teacher's union and in negotiating the expectation is that like, well, you just give us what we want. And so, and, and this is, this is now the first time that a charter or network had been unionized the first time that, um, that had been unionized by a professional teacher's union. So not the UAW, not the IEE, but a professional teacher's union. So we're sitting down to be able to negotiate. And so what the union says is, well, typically when we don't get the, the package that we want, then we give us language instead. So if you can't give me the money, give me the language. Well,

Jebeh Edmunds 8:56

mm-hmm.

Kevin Taylor 8:57

That from the perspective of the leader is a difficult choice to make because the language is gonna come back to bite me in the butt later on. So, so from a, from a, from a, from a, from a teacher perspective, you might want. A 4% increase and you might want to be able to have your vacation days paid out in the end. Mm-hmm. Well, that sounds good on paper and that sounds good as a part of a negotiating contract. But on the other side of the table, you have to understand that if that is what we choose to do, then what that has created for the district for us. Is a liability on the balance sheet because if you stay in the district for, you know, 30 years and you retire and all your sick days get paid out, now I'm responsible for those six days at the, um, at the cost of your salary. And while that looks good to you as you exit. I have to hold that in reserve because you might choose to retire. And as a result now, I have encumbered so much money that I don't have the resources to otherwise invest in something else. So when we look and say, well, why, why is my cleaning service only coming three days a week and not five? How come we had to eliminate, um, a position when we begin to think of those things? It is not in the, it shouldn't have been that person, and I don't want for your classroom to have, uh, cleaning services every day. It is, I have so encumbered my, my expenses that I actually am not able to do some of the other things. And so, uh, in any, um, in any budget, typically personnel runs two thirds of your budget. So you are only working with, um, another third to be able to do everything else. And if I lock myself into something that is not, um, going to be, um, be certain, then I've actually tied my own hands. So if you want a 4% increase, but if student count is going down, then that's not gonna help us. If the amount of money that we're getting in, uh, poor people tuition is not going up by 4% every year, then we've now put ourselves in a bad position. But now. At the negotiating table that doesn't have a good ring to it, right? Because that's not no, that's not good. And, and down the line in the classroom, all you're hearing is, and they're not giving us what we want and we're gonna fight harder. And if you, you know, like you, but all the things that we're doing, and I got this many kids in my classroom, and it's like, yes. I hear you, but like, can you take, can you take 3% and then I can do some things differently. And if the answer is no, you can't, then we're at a stalemate. Yeah. But like again, that's not what the people downstream hear. They hear that the administration doesn't believe in us. That we don't, we don't care about the situation. And so like, I'm, I'm taking that to bed with me. I'm, I'm, that's on my mind as I'm sitting at the table. Um, and because I know that that's not true, it's just what you've been told, or at least the way you've chosen to interpret it. But like, you don't, you, you would know. That as the, as a child of a, um, of a, of, of a, of a, of a teacher that when my, when my, my, my mom's district went on, strike that I was at the school board meeting arguing for their contract. You, you don't, you don't know that about me, to know that I actually believe in what you're doing, but I have a responsibility as a leader to also ensure that 10, 15, 20 years from now that we can still be viable.

Jebeh Edmunds 13:23

Wow. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. I get it. I totally understand that, and I feel like, especially as a former teacher, we would have more clarity, you know, in that type of situation. But I understand when you are working and you're at the table where. You all want the same things, you know? But that also talks when you said about the reserves for every single teacher, you want to have it reserved so when they do retire, they can have a livable wage. You know, that is fixed for them. And if nothing is coming in, you still have to reserve it. Wow. That is really interesting.

Kevin Taylor 14:06

And you're contr-, contractually obligated depending on the district Yes. To pay it. Right? So like, yes, there isn't a world in which you can't live up to that responsibility. And so again, you've, you've enc Well, we don't have the best classrooms that we don't have or mm-hmm. You know, I, I live in this area and my taxes have gone up. Why They've gone up. Because we've also made promises that we've got to be able to fulfill.

Jebeh Edmunds 14:27

Yes.

Kevin Taylor 14:28

But, but people, people don't see the more, the fuller picture.

Jebeh Edmunds 14:32

Yes.

Kevin Taylor 14:32

They instead see in the here and now and like, that's human nature. Mm-hmm. And it's also incumbent upon us to be able to do a better job of communicating. But it is, I just can't tell everything. Right. I just, I can't tell you that, you know, you got 4%, but they really asked for eight. I can't tell you that because they don't up bargain in any good faith. And so what I have to say instead is we, we did the very best that we could given the financial situation that we are in, and that to you might sound like I'm, I'm being cagey, and it's not. I'm just, I'm stating a fact in a way that, you know, protects me and protects you. And it's not that I don't want to tell it, it's just that I can't tell it all.

Jebeh Edmunds 15:13

Exactly. Oh, that is so, so good. Let's continue with this conversation about, you know, and you shared a lot of great examples of feeling that pressure. To compromise and feeling that pressure to hold things back. But again, the human side of you, because you do take that to heart, you do want to work with your people and also, you know, hearing other people saying, oh, you know, he's not being transparent, or, you know, like you said, my class size is too big. Or, you know, the budget is not how it's supposed to be. How do you maintain that integrity? You know, you were sharing how, you know you are a kid of an educator, you are at those school board meetings. You know what it feels like. How do you maintain that integrity in those moments because you do internalize, I would internalize, I would take it so personally, like you have no idea how I'm going to bat for y'all. Every single day, but I still have to put on this face of, yep, I'm the leader, I'm the head of my church. But inside, you know, how do you maintain that, you know, with all of that pressure coming at you.

Kevin Taylor 16:18

Yeah. So, so listen, it, it's, it's, it's not easy. And, and, and there, there are days when you know you want to, um, you know, come out of your. Out of your role, like don't let the color fool you. I, you know, I, I had a very active cussing ministry before I met you and, um, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not active any longer, but Oh, I, I'm, I still remember. And so, um, but, but of course you can't do that and you can't say that, right. But it is. It is, it is true. It is, it is difficult. I, I, so a very specific example. Um, and so again, those who might be familiar with the charter school experience, charters are renewed on a, you know, four or five year basis, depending on the state. Uh, in Massachusetts where I was serving as a leader. Um, we made the decision that we needed to be able to surrender one of our charters, and it was difficult to be able to say to the families, um, this particular community, a community where I used to be the pastor, a community where there were children in the school. That were my members. Um, like it's difficult to be able to say that we, we didn't deliver on our promise and that we need to be able to, um, we need to be able to, uh, surrender this charter that essentially your school is gonna close. I came in at a time of the renewal. Uh, we were renewed with, um, on probation and so we needed to be able to close 'cause we weren't serving the students well. I had to be at the meeting where I made this announcement to the families and to the staff. And like, I, when I say I was cussed out, I mean, like they

Jebeh Edmunds 17:40

Oh yeah.

Kevin Taylor 17:40

Called me everything with the child of God, like the police came. I didn't call them, but I was glad that they were there because it got very, very contentious. And so in that moment, as the parents were screaming, and you did this and you're the reason, and you're the that, and it's like, well, I'm not, I'm, I came and this was the decision that we reached, given where we were, that we are not serving your students, as they should be, and we're not delivering on the promise. The thing that kept me going was that, um, that I, we were acting in the best interest of students. And so you, you have to decide as a leader what your North star is. You have to decide what is the thing that is going to guide your practice and that you are going to hold true to regardless of what, um, what happens. And so that is then the thing that if you can continue to focus on that North Star, then, you know, not so much let the tips fall where they may. But as circumstances arise that are not, um, consistent or are not what you've expected, at least you can rest knowing that you fulfilled your duty. And so that's, that's where the idea of the book comes in, is that this is now, a charge to keep, right? Like I've got to do this thing that I have been charged to do. And as hard as it is. I've been charged. Now the follow up book is gonna continue with the hymn my calling to fulfill, and it's gonna talk about the cost of leadership and the untold costs on the family, on the individual, on your finances, on your whatever, that those are also things that we don't discuss, but the idea is the same, that we've gotta be able to keep it charged. And so what is the thing that is motivating you? On the church side? It is. I want for this church to be better than when I got it, and that the next person will be able to move forward. So the scriptures say that one person plants another person, waters, but God gives the increase. So I'm not here for the increase. If God wants me to be the best sower, then I'm gonna put as many seeds in the ground as I can. I'm gonna turn over the soil as best I can. Yes, it's gonna hurt, but later on somebody else is gonna come to water. I might not be at this church to enjoy the shade or the fruit that comes from this tree. But somebody will be thankful that Reverend Taylor came by and he did what he did in order for us to be able to reap the reward that we are. So, so for me, that is more important than being liked, than being celebrated for every decision, for, you know, for every, every sermon to get an amen. Like I'm no, I'm, I'm here to till the soil. I'm here to plant some seeds. I'm here, and we are people where we expect immediate results. Right. So, you know, we, we want, we want, we wanna be able to see the apple pie. And I, I just planted the tree so the apples aren't going to be available right now, but that's okay. But, but I, but I just need you to know that this is a long term, this is a long term challenge. This is not short term. And so we didn't get in this mess overnight and we're not gonna get out of it. Tonight. So you've got to then pace yourself as the leader to be able to say, my North Star is this and I'm going to, yes, I'm going to go after that with all that I have and I'm not gonna lose myself in the process, but that that is what. Keeps me going. And I encourage, uh, and believe that your leaders, uh, would feel the same. Oh, I love that. Oh, let the church say amen. Because yes, we are so in a society of we want it this way, we want it yesterday. It's like, no, no, no. We gotta be in all of it. The fertilization, everything, and planting as many seeds and, and yeah, I just love, love that description. Let's talk about your book. I am so excited for my. Audience to get a copy and, you know, I know you talked about your second one, but Yeah. How did you come up with this foundation of, of course, that hidden weight and, and, yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, so thank you. So the book is called A Charge to Keep, um, and it, the subtitle is Immutable Leadership Lessons from the C-Suite to the Pulpit. And so in the book. Um, I give 12 lessons that I have learned the hard way. So not, this is not, this is not educational theory, this is not leadership theory. This is like, this is a lesson that Kevin has learned and I provide you with an example from my pastorate and an example from my C-Suite experience. So every example is real, every circumstance is real. Uh, and this is not like, you know, this is a Kevin fan book. It's not. I also talk about, some bad choices that I made in order that a leader would understand that you don't have to touch the stove to find out that it's hot. Let me tell you, I found out it's hot. You just take my word for it and you go on and you make other mistakes, but don't make this one. And so, um, so that's how the book is laid out in terms of how I came to the book. Um, so as I was transitioning from the charter school space, so 10 and a half years, um, in the space. Uh, I was beginning to think about, well, like I've had a number of experiences that like most people wouldn't have. Like, so I literally was assigned to a church that had been foreclosed on two weeks before. And, and so I'm, you know, I now needing to negotiate with this bank. And so over the course of two and a half years, you know, we're able to negotiate with the bank, uh, and to be able to get three percentage points lower in terms of our interest rate. And the bank didn't even want the loan and they were willing to go with the loan. They had called the loan. And, um, and then we are then, we were still able to operate and to be able to move forward like that, that everybody doesn't have that story and you know. Or when I was, you know, was at a, was in a unionized environment like we talked about. Uh, where, you know, I'm negotiating with a teacher's union, had to be able to surrender, uh, a charter, but like also working in a, um, in a job in the clean energy space where my stance on oil and gas. Cost me my job and cost me my job again, uh, at another location before the same reason. And so, so it's been those disparate experiences that I said, you know what, no, they, they need to be recorded and they need to give people an opportunity to be able to see not only that, um, that that ministry is hard, and that being a leader is hard, but also to be able to understand that the things that you are faced with. Are not unique to you. So we can often think that like, we are the first person that ever experienced this problem, or we are the, you know, our organization is such a special snowflake that, you know, like no other organization can we learn from. It's like, no, these are, these are, these are realistic, these are immutable leadership lessons. So, you know, one of the lessons is. When you are faced with change management, you know, in your organization that sometimes the opposition or sometimes the people, um, fighting against you is actually evidence that you are making the right choice. Yes. And if you, uh, want to be able to immediately think, well, I made this grandiose idea and I think is wonderful, and the folks are pushing back, so I must have, I, I must recalibrate maybe. But it could just very well be that the people are mourning the way it used to be, and the people that benefited from the inequity are the ones who are now most upset about the possibility of it being more equitable. And like if that's not something that you are prepared to understand, then you can get discouraged easily. And if you are not, you know of the mind that, that the person who you least expect to stab you in the back is gonna stab you in the back and then hold a, a knife behind their back and smile in your face, if that's not something that you are prepared to do. When that happens, you might have a crisis of consciousness and you might say, this is too much for me. I'm here to say, no, no, no. This is what it looks like to be the leader and this is imp that you are doing the right thing and nobody got to where they are in a straight line. That leadership had ups and downs. Now, the curve might look like it was going up all the time, but that's not how life is. And if you don't know that, you might see, this step back. As being, you know, you should throw in the towel. Nope. That's just you, you, you doing the right thing. That's just the way life happens. And so you keep at it, you keep, you keep struggling, you keep moving forward and you will find that you'll get to your destination. And so, so, so that is the, the message of the book. That is the idea that you don't have to be alone. You may feel alone, but you don't have to be alone.

Jebeh Edmunds 26:11

I love that. And again, stay the course, stay the charge. Like, keep going, you know? And like you said, you're not gonna, you're not in the business of people pleasing or you know, there's gotta be some give and take in order to get to the ultimate part of what you're, you're, you know, your North Star is. That's amazing. And yeah, I just, even when you talk about that peeling of. That person stabbing you in the back or people being upset and you know, that's a part of the, the growing pains and what you're trying to accomplish. And if you don't have the stomach for that or you just feel like, oh, well you know, this company let me go because of my North star, then that means I'm not a good leader as I thought. And you're like, that's not the case. It just doesn't align with that particular organization. But you will find an organization that you know, is willing to work and bend and, and keep moving forward. Oh, this is awesome. So before we go, Reverend Kevin, where can we find all your amazing work, get your books, and continue on this journey of, you know, the bye and bye. Like, yes. Let's, how do we keep following you?

Kevin Taylor 27:23

Uh, so, so thank you. So I am, um, so you can go to my website. So it's REV as in Victor, K-T-T-A-Y-L-O-R. So revkttaylor.com. There you can, um, the links to purchase my book. You can see how we can work together in a consulting capacity. I can come to your, uh, organization to deliver a keynote or even to preach at your church. You can also see, um, from that website you can see. Um, the different, uh, newsletters that I write. Uh, so I write four different newsletters, one on Substack, three on LinkedIn, uh, and you can go right there to be able to read them and to subscribe. Uh, and you can also, um, then learn more about, um, the way in which, um, uh, I am thinking and the, and the future projects to be able to come. One of the things that I like most about the website is that it also talks about the books that I've been reading. And so even as I am looking to be able to help, you know, others with the books, uh, with my own book, I have also benefited from learning, uh, from the experiences of others. And so, uh, the books that I've been reading in 2026, uh, also 2025, are all on the website for you to be able to see. And. You don't have to like my same choices, but it gives you a sense of, like, Kevin is, is as, as a student of other subjects than just leadership. Kevin is also interested in learning these, um, these things. And so, I encourage your, your, your, um, your listening audience to check those out and I'm, I'm very appreciative of this time that we've had today.

Jebeh Edmunds 28:50

Oh, me too. Kevin, thank you so very much for being a guest on our show. And one last question for you. What message do you hope our listeners walk away from after hearing your story and your work today?

Kevin Taylor 29:03

So I, I, I hope that they hear that leadership is lonely. So what you are going through, you can feel like you are the only one that's ever been through it, but you don't have to be alone. There are people, there are resources, there are other individuals who've been in your same shoes. And so pick up my book. You don't have to read it from cover to cover. Think of it like instead, think of it like a playbook. And as the defense, you know, is giving you this read, you can come to that chapter and say, all right, what do I need to do? And as you see, the offense is giving you that read. You can come and you can see what to be able to do because in that way. You are not the only person that has ever dealt with this same circumstance, and so use that to your advantage and, and and shock the offense. Shock the defense. I didn't, I didn't think that he knew to do that. I didn't think that she knew to be able to pull that play. It's like, right, because I've been studying, I've been thinking I have, I have invested time outside of this place to grow in my leadership and, when you have the opportunity to pass that on to somebody else, do so. Because your experience, you being in that seat that you are in leader has paved the way for somebody to come behind you and just like you had a leg up to be able to get there or somebody reached for you, make sure that you are reaching back to be able to help somebody else on their journey.

Jebeh Edmunds 30:30

Oh, I love that, Reverend Kevin. Oh my goodness. You are so motivating and inspiring. Thank you. And, and also keeping it real like, yeah, it is lonely. I love that about your candor, because it is, it's hard. You have to make those hard decisions and you have to have those, you know, difficult and courageous conversations. And no matter how, like you said, the pushback you get, you still have to remember your North star and what your purpose is to keep going forward. And thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights, your leadership, your courage, and your integrity. And for our listeners, if this today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to connect with Reverend Kevin's work. I, um, and I will have all of his information in the show notes so you can continue to follow him and, um, you know, get his substack, follow all of his work on his platforms. And of course. If you enjoyed conversations like this, please share the Culture Curriculum Chat podcast with a friend, fellow educator, fellow leader, and community organizer to keep pushing this podcast forward. Until next time, I will see you here. Same time, same place. Bye-bye.