Season 9 Episode #6 Building Bridges Through Storytelling, Sensory-Friendly Spaces, and Strength-Based Joy with Thomas Wilson

In this episode of the Cultural Curriculum Chat, host Jebeh Edmunds sits down with Thomas R. Wilson — educator, writer, consultant, and purpose-driven event specialist — for a deeply human conversation about empathy, healing, and the transformative power of storytelling.

Thomas shares how growing up in the neurodivergent and mental health communities during the 90s and early 2000s shaped his mission to create compassionate, person-first spaces where everyone — regardless of background, belief, or lived experience — belongs. From the role of healthy escapism and Dungeons & Dragons in community healing, to what a genuine apology actually sounds like, Thomas offers practical wisdom grounded in lived experience.

Together, Jebeh and Thomas explore what it means to derive purpose from pain, why mindful learning must center the whole child, and how empathic storytelling can dismantle shame and build bridges across difference.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• Why empathy was missing from mainstream culture in the 90s and why it matters more than ever now.
• What a "person-first mindset" looks like in practice for educators, caregivers, and community leaders.
• The difference between performative sympathy and collaborative empathy.
• How storytelling and play create safe spaces for processing pain and building connection.
• What Thomas would say to anyone who feels like their story doesn't matter.

Transcript

Jebeh Edmunds 0:02

Hello and welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat podcast where we honor the stories, ideas, and lived experiences that help us lead, teach, and live with greater clarity and courage. I'm your host Jebeh Edmonds educator, author of The Orange Blossom and Cultural Storyteller. Today's conversation is one that sits at the heart of everything we believe. Here, empathy, storytelling, and community voice. I'm joined by Thomas R. Wilson, educator, writer, consultant, business owner, and purpose-driven event specialist. His work centers around an empathic person first. Mindset designed to access and uplift community voices his mission to derive purpose from pain, and create spaces for mindful learning. Thomas, welcome to the show.

Thomas Wilson 0:59

Thank you for having me on.

Jebeh Edmunds 1:02

Aw. Thank you for being here, and let's start. You said that you were inspired to fill a need with your community for empathic storytellers. What was happening in your life or community that made you realize that need existed?

Thomas Wilson 1:21

So I think a big thing for me, um, has been the mindset of definitely growing up within like the mental health community, the Neurodiverse community. Um, I mean, I will say things are a lot better now than I think they have ever have been. But definitely growing up, um, in the nineties and early two thousands, and I think if you did grow up in that time period or lived in that time period, it's very obvious that empathy was not a big conversation in that time point, especially when, um, a lot of TV shows and a lot of media actually made fun of people just for seeking therapy. Or the general consensus was that if you had mental health needs or you had, you know, your own "neuro spiciness" or your own PTSD, whatever it is, your own lived experience, there was something inherently wrong with you. Um, and that was definitely driven by some very out of date mindsets, even in that time period, in my opinion. But it was also driven. And continues to be driven by the fact that so many kids, whether or not they have "neuro spiciness", mental health struggles, whatever we're, we're taught to shame people and be shamed at such a young age. It's actually really fascinating to me, um, that people are having conversation that quote unquote, shame needs to come back because it's not gone. It's just finding new avenues to be utilized. Um. And in all honesty, it amazes me that these younger generations like Gen Z, Gen Alpha, I think there's another one on that list. I'm terrible with those names. Um, it's amazing to me that there is such an honest conversation on mental health happening because it's desperately needed. Yes. But I also think for those of us who grew up, and this is a big reason why I do my work. Uh, those of us who grew up in those tough times, we are taught to carry shame. We're taught to be hard on ourselves. We're taught to have ableist mindsets towards ourselves and our communities. And we're also just generally taught not to pursue our wellness. Um, and so that is why I do my work. But I also believe that empathic storytelling. It serves a role that our world needs so much. Um, it serves the creative outlet that so many people want, and it serves the idea that no matter who we are, where we grew up, whether or not we have our own lived experiences, the struggles I've talked about, we all deserve a safe space to enjoy what we love to play, the games we wanna play, to hear the stories we want to hear. In a way that's kind and considerate and compassionate for us. And so that was a little rambly. Um,

Jebeh Edmunds 4:23

That's okay. Yeah.

Thomas Wilson 4:24

It was, that is the heart of the work.

Jebeh Edmunds 4:27

I love that. And I feel like that empathy. Is a whole nother level of belonging and letting you, like you said, play the games you wanna play, interact with people without feeling guilt or shame. Because you're right, we were conditioned to, oh, that's not a big problem. There are other people that are suffering more than you. You know, just, you know, chin up and, and keep moving forward. And a lot of us internalize that, and I'm so happy you shared that of the media and our day growing up was, yeah, it was fodder, it was, you know, making you othered and marginalized and there's always something wrong with them. And, and for us to take our, our power back in our own wellness and our own mental clarity to go, wow, I thought it was just me. No, there's others out there saying, okay, that veil of shame has been lifted and I'm empowering myself to mm-hmm. To take care of myself and, and that I really admire your work on of speaking that truth to power. Because there is that, that pain that so many people carry, but that purpose of moving forward and, and showing empathy for others, and, um, and that is such a powerful phrase that you shared that deriving purpose from pain. What does that look in practice, especially in our education and community spaces?

Thomas Wilson 5:59

I mean, I, I think really the first step of that is acknowledging the issues that. Have existed for a long time, and I like when I talk about these things, I always know there's at least one person who hears this and kind of rolls their eyes and goes, oh, you know, um, I think one of my least favorite terms I hear a lot is. Uh, the word soft. Um, and I, I think a lot of people who use it, like they don't realize the full implications, um, of that word. And like, I, believe me, I know a lot of older individuals, I have a lot of friends in their fifties and sixties, and some of them get frustrated and they, they use those words. But I think one of the things, as hard as it was for us, I think it's really interesting. That so many groups of people are taught that becoming harder in life is a good thing. Or to hold on to that, that misery, that frustration, that hostility and kind of let it out in unhealthy ways. And so when I have that fine set of deriving focus, uh, deriving healing from pain, whatever it is, um, the big step is understanding that unfortunately many of us are taught hold onto pain. And many of us are taught to that. Um, uh. Our misery is quieter, I will say, than than what we think it is. And so I work really hard to acknowledge people where they're at, and I think that's the first step with any program. Like we can't judge someone. Yes, they might throw out the word soft, which I really don't like that word, but there are other terms that I'm gonna use. Well, I'm gonna leave out for the sake of that. Um, the other thing I think is really instrumental in meeting people where they're at is understanding that we are all, and you mentioned this so well, we all have our trauma, we all have our pain, our worries, our stress. And when I focus in on my work, a big part of that is me leaving my opinions, my mindset, my good intentions at the door. And, and finding out what people need in that moment. And so I do a lot of like Dungeons and Dragons. I do storytelling. I work with a wide range of communities, but it really is the first couple of steps are me leaving what I necessarily, what I expect for other people at the door. The other steps in that are also helping people. A lot of the time it's just embracing fun and giving people the opportunity to make choices. Having those choices actually honored, um, giving people the freedom to step back and, and I am actually a big believer in escapism. I think it's a, it's a necessary thing. Um, and it's weird to me like. I can, well, I should say, before I say that I fully acknowledge there are people who go to escapism and it goes to a very unhealthy place. But healthy escapism is huge. Um, and the other thing there is also acknowledging, and, and believe me, I work with a wide range of people with political affiliations, with philosophical and spiritual beliefs. And the reason I do is I fully acknowledge that everyone deserves. Equal consistent care. Um, yes, and I cannot, especially in today's age, I cannot ask someone to leave just because they're a Republican or a Democrat or an atheist or a Christian. And so finding pathways to help those people connect and find their communities in healthy, consistent, and compassionate ways. I think is really a beautiful thing and it's a big part of that. And there was actually a YouTube video I was listening to, um, the other day and they were saying like, you know, no matter someone's beliefs or attitudes or frustrations, we are all people trying to make our best in life. And finding and believing that people want healing, they want their community, they want to help the people around them. Um, is, is a game changer. And I've been trying to keep that in mind more. And so that is a big part of it as well, is accepting that we, we are realistically all trying our best. Yeah, we are realistically all working to support one another. And having spaces where we can laugh, play, embrace, and, and realistically let go of some of the real world tensions that try to shame us or degrade us, or even our own internal narratives of, yeah. This is what I expect of myself, but the, I don't care if it's toxic, which I've had that thought many times. Um, all of that, to summarize, sorry, I'm, I'm rambling again.

Jebeh Edmunds 10:58

It's all good. I love the rambling. I love it. You're giving me great gems, Thomas. Yes.

Thomas Wilson 11:04

The heart of it really is meeting people wholly for who they are, acknowledging the good in them, and then helping them find a place to process that. 'cause I truly believe the, the big thing is processing and then letting go of it, even if it's temporary.

Jebeh Edmunds 11:23

I love that, and I love how you shared about the healthy escapism. I feel like in that healthy escapism is when people can learn to interact with their guard down. They can, you know like you said, play like Dungeons and Dragons and be interactive with one another and just kind of leaving the shame and the guilt and the pain at the door and actually. Feeling this euphoric way of interacting with other human beings, trying to see where we're all at, you know? Um, it kind of makes you feel like you're at your highest self when you're more creative and, you know, um, I, I feel that too. Um, uh, trying to, no matter what trauma you've been facing with just that way of just. Breathing a little deeper and connecting with others, you know, in your common, your common goal of, of play, of imagination, of problem solving, you know, those are things that are so important. Um, on this podcast, Thomas, we talk a lot about cultural identity and lived experiences shaping our leadership. How has your own identity influenced the way you approach storytelling and community engagement?

Thomas Wilson 12:43

So I, I personally think, um, that it is the fundamental core of it. Um, I definitely growing up and having a lot of mistreatment and long list of things that I'm not gonna bring up just outta respect for the audience. I don't want to trigger anybody. I don't wanna. Bring anything back, but you know, if you have a mental health diagnosis, you can probably imagine. Um, I, I, I think so. I'll be honest, my identity has shifted many times over my lifetime.

Jebeh Edmunds 13:16

Yes.

Thomas Wilson 13:16

My, my understanding of myself has also drastically changed, but I think within the last several years, um, my identity has been rooted in my journey of wellness and of compassion, not just for other people, for myself. Um. And having spent time at one point in the church, there's a term that I really misunderstood, which was treat others the way you wanna be treated. Um, and that's become a big foundation of my work, but my mindset in that tied to my identity has changed drastically where it's not always. Be kind to people. It's not always, uh, be respectful of people. It's also understanding who we are, understanding what we need, what we want, how we have to survive, um, but also. Who and what we want to be and understand that if we want people to respect us, we have to be accountable. We have to be reliable. If we want people to be compassionate, we have to be someone worth being compassionate for. Um, and so that mindset has been there and it definitely used to be, oh, if I want to be mean and hostile, that's justification. 'cause people should treat me bad for that or in my journey. It's also been a lot of. A lot of desire to be treated well, but not always being treated well. So why is that happening? And I think as I started to really understand who I am, and it helped me to better understand how to serve my community, especially in that mindset of I am a leader in my field now. I am a, I am, uh, someone who helps serve other people. Therefore, I also have to be someone worth seeking out.

Jebeh Edmunds 15:08

Oh, I love that.

Thomas Wilson 15:09

And those foundations in my work are also an expectation of myself.

Jebeh Edmunds 15:16

Yes.

Thomas Wilson 15:17

But also knowing what I needed as a kid also gives me foundational insight of how to work with young kids, how to address people who are struggling in their young adulthood, but also how to. Supportively and empathetically understand someone on their worst day and help them understand they are not the circumstances or the actions of those worst days. And so all of that sense of identity, especially within realistically, a very short period of time, has helped me to better serve my community and better serve the foundations of many others.

Jebeh Edmunds 15:59

I love that Thomas, and, and you did point into that person first mindset, you know, of, you know, your circumstances or what happened to you doesn't define you. Um, can you give us another example of that person first mindset?

Thomas Wilson 16:16

Yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, a, a big part of it is not seeing someone as a diagnosis. Um, I have, I have known many people that I have loved who, um. Have been very flawed in that mindset. Um, I, I've been a pretty big advocate for a very large chunk of my life, and sometimes I've been a worse advocate than I should be. Um, sometimes, especially growing up and understanding what that word means and the responsibility of it, um, I had a lot to learn and, um. I mean, I, one example is not calling people by their diagnosis. But I think the other thing for those of us with lived experience with that kind of like a diagnosis or mental health, whatever it is. I think it's also exemplifying that for ourselves because it can be very easy for, like, this happens to me on a regular basis. If I do something I don't like or say something I don't like to somebody often I go through like this perpetual cycle of, oh, I messed up. Oh, I deserve something bad to happen. Why did you do that? You dummy or you idiot. Um, and I have to kind of break that cycle 'cause I think it's not always talked about how we as people have to view ourselves through a person first mindset, especially those of us working with these communities. And so I think a big part of it is the acceptance, the acknowledgement, but also the dignity and the separation to remove ourselves from the past, quote unquote limitations people put on us and we put on ourselves. And I think a big thing, and you know, healthcare is always a bit behind society. It's just fundamentally in terms and interpretations. But I think another very important aspect is. Um, for physicians to understand that the people they are seeing are not their diagnosis. So the surgeons or things, and that is a very different, vastly different world. But when we find those doctors or those therapists, whatever they are. Um, it's, it's important for them to acknowledge as much as we may wanna help or cure someone, we have to understand that there are people first.

Jebeh Edmunds 18:49

Yes.

Thomas Wilson 18:49

And a diagnosis, potentially even third or fourth down that list.

Jebeh Edmunds 18:53

Yes. Yes. Not a statistic in front of you, um, and not of your own implicit bias of somebody from that same diagnosis scope to say, well I've already, you know, interacted with somebody from that diagnosis, so therefore they're going to react like this. And, and, and that isn't the case as well. Oh, I really enjoy that. Um, example that you shared. And another thing when you were saying. You know, when you do make a mistake and you do interact, we do tend to beat ourselves up. We do tend to not feel like, oh, the, the shame again, and the guilt of, oh, and I always tell clients of mine. I'm like, we're gonna step in it. That's a human experience. We're gonna mess up. We're gonna say stuff we, we don't mean or say stuff, you know, intentionally, but then we go back and reflect. But then that's when you hold yourself accountable to say, "yes, I messed up and I will do better". It is not your job, Thomas, to do better for me. I have to go back and do better, and how can I repair that? And I think that's a big piece of, um, you know, we talk about performative empathy to embodied empathy. Um, you know, how do we move from that? Like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, take it on the chin. Uh, we will, we'll get back. Or, oh, I didn't mean it, and, and we end up, you know, making ourselves, you know, more of the, look at me, "I made the mistake", versus "how can I repair the harm that I had with Thomas?" You know, can you give us a, you know, how do we move from the performative to the embodied? Mm-hmm.

Thomas Wilson 20:35

So, I mean, just to start, um, with the examples you gave, I, I think it is the ownership of accountability. Um, I. I run across that a lot and I've had to talk to a lot of people, um, about apologies. Um, and I think a lot of us are, aren't necessarily actually taught well, I know many of us are not one taught how to apologize effectively and then to actually apply accountable empathy to the situation. Um, and I, I run across a lot of people who are like, um, you know, they do something that they don't like. And I, I think my least favorite one is, I'm sorry you got upset". Um, or "I'm sorry that bothered you". Um, and I, I actually listened to somebody once talk about. You know, an actual apology is being vulnerable. Being genuine and, and owning that. And I think when, I can't remember the example they gave, but was, um, it was essentially, "I am sorry that I messed up and I hurt you". Could be an example. Yes. Um, the other thing in that though, and I think this is also what makes it hard for some people. Is there are people who are just not gonna accept apologies genuinely. Um, they're gonna hurt things, they're gonna hurt, they're gonna be upset, and, and we get defensive, um, when we do something wrong because of those kinds of interactions. Uh, the other side of it, um, recent, I had somebody who was in groups and they, they were a very genuine apologizer. Um, but they did something. And they apologized and you know, somebody else reacted very intensely and they said, "I'm sorry, I made you upset". And I had to call them out and be like, I, I appreciate that you're apologizing to them, but you are not responsible for this person's actions.

Jebeh Edmunds 22:40

Yes.

Thomas Wilson 22:40

And the response I saw, like their eyes got big. They looked at it and the other person wasn't happy, but they were like, thank you, I, that is true. And I, you know, I talked them through it. But I think the other big thing just from this lens, it, the other thing that can be really important is how we as facilitators or providers actually handle that and. The big thing is, and I think this is something else we are taught how to do, is to draw back. Um, a lot of times when people apologize to me, I tell 'em it's okay. It's not a big deal. Um, and it's not for me. Tomi dismiss their apology. It's for me to help that move on. There's also instances when I work with kids, they get extremely upset and once they're ready to apologize, I see their head like sunken down, their energy drops substantially. Um, and often it's like very mumbled. "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." And. To me that's saying this person is genuinely sorry, but there's like more guilt and shame and all this past experiences. And often what I reply with is, "so you're sorry. What can we do going forward?" And then I ask them to explain it and then I say, and I tell them, "I'm not upset with you. I am not gonna judge you. I'm not gonna make you feel worse. You've had a tough day." Um, and then we try to create a pathway forward and we move on. We let it go and we understand that, and that can be applied to a lot of different things. Um, I am working on a training with somebody and I think the greatest thing I heard them say was, um, sympathy can be performative. Empathy is collaborative. Oh, I like that and I love that saying so much. Um, and I think that that's very true. And I also want to say sometimes it's okay to have performative behavior, like it's not inherently just awful. I know society is pushing back against that, but sometimes we may fish, sometimes we may seek attention. It's not inherently bad. Like if we're having a bad day and we need someone to encourage us back, it's okay. But if we're performing for the sake of trying to come across as a better person than we are, or we're trying to make somebody else's situation wholly about us, that is a very different thing than seeking a response that supports us.

Jebeh Edmunds 25:22

Yeah. Ooh, that's so good, Thomas. Yes. And I really love when I've been doing my research about how you speak about mindful learning. You know, the world feels rushed and reactive and you've given great examples throughout this whole conversation. What does mindful learning look like to you?

Thomas Wilson 25:44

Um, I mean, the simplest answer, and I'll elaborate on this slightly. Is learning that matches the student and teaches them how they need to be taught. Um, and the more elaborate answer is it's compassionate learning. It's, uh, I'm actually a big advocate against tests. I don't like tests. They've often been proven not to actually work. Um, yep. And they're extremely stressful, especially someone who has, uh, test anxiety. If I know a test is coming, I am deeply anxious for the entirety of the day. Um, but it, it's also like. Acknowledging again, people are gonna have bad days, students are gonna have bad days. It's acknowledging how much of school is actually stacked against kids like fundamentally. I always, I always say this bit like kids are dealing with tests. They have social struggles, they have their own worries, their own home struggles. They get mountains of homework. Typically, especially depending on the class every day, they then may have a job or whole, whole bunches of things that they don't, we don't know is going on. And then to have a teacher who judges them or is angry at them, and then to put a weird like rating system on students in general and like when students don't do well with all of that, it is the strangest thing to me that we then blame the students for all of that and not doing as well as we want them to. Um, yeah, it, that is, it's one of the weirdest institutional setups to me. Um, especially when you have thousands of students in a, in a school sometimes. Yes. And they're all just trying to do their best and yes. You then had No, oh my God. I could, I could keep going on and on about that.

Jebeh Edmunds 27:45

I, I'm right there with you, Thomas. Yeah, setting them up to fail, you know. Fail social cues, fail with all kinds of things, to just be rote and robotic. And, and, and as a former classroom teacher, that's just a little dipstick of a, it doesn't show the whole child, it doesn't show their own lived experience on a test. You know? And, and yeah, as educators we couldn't stand testing day, week, month, April was always a hard one for us too because it was like, uh, you know, we are also test anxiety ridden as well as educators. 'Cause so much is weighing on us as, "oh your students didn't make enough progress. It's on you. It's your fault. Go do more training and do this." It's like, oh, but do you know the whole child? Do you know that I didn't go to school to, to teach 'em how to do a test? You know, I wanted them to learn and be, you know, fully, you know, good citizens in our society and, and yeah. So yeah, Thomas, I'm right there with you, my, my friend because yeah, we're, you're speaking the same language as we all are as educators, like Yeah. We're also test anxiety ridden as well, giving the test and, you know, with. Students just looking up at you, going, I don't know. And he's like, oh, I can't help you. My hands are, you know, tied. I can't, you know, and I, I see you struggling, so Yeah, you're right. Um, to be more mindful of that, um, because our students do carry a lot with them besides just sitting at their desk, you know, they, they bring a lot of themselves, you know, into your classroom. Um, and is someone listening right now who feels like their story doesn't matter? What would you say to them, Thomas?

Thomas Wilson 29:34

Um, I mean, so this is gonna sound somewhat generic. But the first part of this is, is please know that your voice, your story does matter. Um, there is, could go on and on on all of this, but, um. I often, actually, I'm gonna change what I was gonna say for something else. I feel like a lot of the time, um, and you mentioned this earlier, um, our society puts a lot of value on things. Definitely things that shouldn't, like, um, a lot of people are taught to have the very insurance level. My trauma is not as bad as yours, or your trauma is not as bad as mine. Um, we're often told that like the very hollywood esque stories have the most value, or the people who have the most success, or like big or multi-talented have the most value. And, and the answer is, it's just not, um, it's not true. It's not fundamental. Um, I can easily say, if you can get through the day and you can survive to the point where you thrive, um. And you can start affecting your community or even yourself in positive ways. Um, that's huge. And then the last thing I would say to that is being able to get up, to get moving, to pursue the things you want in life. That has real value, um, that has beauty to it, that has value to it. And acknowledging that and showing not just your community, but yourself, the gratitude and the love you deserve, and your story, the love it deserves. There's, that is a gift not just to yourself, but to the world and to your future.

Jebeh Edmunds 31:32

I love that, Thomas. Thank you. And where can everybody find your work and learn about your journey and how you could help them as well?

Thomas Wilson 31:43

Uh, yeah. So I will make sure all my links are provided. I'm, I'm often terrible at, I can promote my work. I'm terrible at promoting myself. Uh, you can find me at LinkedIn, Thomas roadie Wilson. Uh, the roadie is there. 'cause that's a, that has a very long history to my storytelling as well. It's a gifted name from my community. Um. But you can also email me NDTTRPG@gmail.com. I do apologize to anyone who's like me where that sounds like, oh, almost the same letter. I never realized how, how similar that sounds until I started saying and on podcasts. Um, you can also find me, I'll make sure my link tree with all my events and things is on in the call. But, um, additionally, I do want to say, um. Uh, well I have my website there, but I also wanna encourage people to reach out, ask questions, um, to have conversations because I love having conversations with people. I love getting to have the, like, have the opportunity, opportunity to answer questions, uh, and to help the community and share thoughts, even if it's a one and done question and that's it. It has a lot of value to it.

Jebeh Edmunds 33:00

It does. Oh, Thomas, thank you so much, and we will definitely have all your information in the show notes. Oh, this was just a wonderful conversation and one of the takeaways that I hope our listeners carry with them after this conversation is how to be more empathic, embodied. And that everybody has value where they all are in their journey. And Thomas, I'm so honored that you are our guest today. Um, what a powerful reminder that storytelling is not just expression, it's healing and um, it's leadership and it's also community architecture. So if this episode resonated with you friends, please share it with someone who believes in purpose from pain. Leave a review so more educators and leaders can find these conversations. And if you're ready to deepen your own cultural competency and leadership journey, explore myself paced courses and reflection guides@jebbaedmonds.com. Thank you again, Thomas, for joining us, and I will see you all here. Same time, same place. Bye-bye.