Season 9 Episode #9 The Power of Reading, Writing, and Southern Storytelling with Author Susan Gooch

In this episode, Jebeh Edmunds sits down with Susan Gooch, an Arkansas author and proud Southern storyteller, to talk about the transformative power of reading, writing, and the stories we carry from our lived experiences.

Susan shares her journey from a child with dyslexia who resisted reading to a voracious reader who devours nearly 200 books a year. She opens up about her mother's patient dedication, the eighth-grade moment a Dickens novel cracked her world wide open, and how those early struggles shaped her into an empathetic, passionate educator.

Together, Jebeh and Susan explore creative classroom strategies for reluctant readers — from "book carrying" and lunch bunches to Book Bingo and million-word reading challenges — and discuss how building positive associations with reading can change a student's entire trajectory.

Susan also dives into her Carrington Series, sharing how small-town Arkansas life, a cast of unforgettable Southern women, and a story that came to her while supervising standardized tests inspired her fiction debut. She reflects on finding her authentic author voice, the danger of mimicking other writers, and why it's never too late to start a new chapter — in books or in life.

Key Takeaways:

• The brain must be trained to read — and great educators know how to make that happen
• Write what you know: your lived experience is your greatest creative asset
• It's never too late to pivot, start over, and chase new dreams
• Find Susan Gooch: susangooch.com | Instagram & Facebook: @Y'allHaveGottoReadThis

The Carrington Affairs and The Non-Negotiable are available on Amazon and local booksellers.

Transcript

Jebeh Edmunds 0:25

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Cultural Curriculum Chat podcast, the show where we explore culture storytelling and the co courageous conversations that help us better understand ourselves and one another. I'm your host, Jebeh Edmunds educator, author, and cultural consultant, and I'm so glad you're here today. If you're new to the show, this podcast is about highlighting voices that shape how we think about culture, identity, education, and storytelling. Before we begin today's conversation, I wanna share two quick resources with you, educators listening today. If you're looking to bring more cultural awareness into your classroom. Be sure to check out my mini courses and multicultural lesson plans available on my website and my teacher pay teacher store. These resources are designed to help educators have meaningful and courageous conversations with our students about culture. Identity. So let's dive into today's conversation. Today's guest is Susan Gooch, an Arkansas author and creator of the Carrington Series. Susan is a proud southern storyteller and passionate reader who has spent much of her life sharing her love of literature with others. In addition to being an author, she's also a devoted wife, mother, and Mimi, and she previously worked as an educator. Where she inspired students through reading, writing, and creativity. Susan is also known for being a voracious reader, reading nearly 200 books a year, and sharing her favorites with her Instagram audience through her popular feature called, "y'all have got to read this". So today we're talking about storytelling, the power of reading, and how our lived experiences shape the stories we tell. Susan, welcome to the show.

Susan Gooch 2:23

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to, to be here and to talk about all my favorite things, reading and writing.

Jebeh Edmunds 2:29

Oh, I love it. Me too. So, Susan, let's start from the beginning. What inspired your love of reading and writing?

Susan Gooch 2:36

Well, you have to start back when I am naturally a math kid because I'm dyslexic and my mother was a reading specialist and she thank the Lord, he, he gets it right. He, he plans the future for us backwards. I truly believe. And so my mom and the old fashioned, you gotta be pretty old, remember these, but they used to be film strips and she would put them on the wall. I remember being like second and third grade and having, I didn't know what she was doing. It made me so mad. I was such a tomboy. I wanted to go play, but, um, I had to read, I had to read those things on the film strips and she would slowly, and then faster and faster. And I built that fluency and I learned to read. And I, it wasn't, it wasn't a quick turnaround. Um, probably not until the eighth grade that I finally found that, that hunger to read that. Um. I remember reading the Tale of Two Cities and I was reading about the guy and the, the character that gnaws on his hand and that level of hunger and the way the, that dickens let me go back to France in the 17 hundreds and I was right there, and even though I had really no schema to build that on. I was able to create that movie and to really be there. And then from there it just kinda, it was like all the dominoes clicked into place and the, it just showed up. You know, the p puzzle piece came together for me and from that moment on, I became a reader. And, um, when I went to college, I got a degree in writing and, um, didn't intend to be a teacher at all. Don't have an education degree, I have an English degree. Um, but I was gonna go to law school and instead I became a mom. And, um. I had a son who has learning disabilities, severe learning disabilities, and he wasn't learning at all, and I was reteaching everything at home. And I thought, well, I'm probably gonna have to homeschool him at some point. He's, he's not gonna make it in public schools. And so I did not want my children. I saw what a, a certified teacher could do, and I wanted my children taught by a certified teacher. So I certified and started teaching because I wanted him in public schools as long as I could keep him there.

Jebeh Edmunds 4:49

Oh yeah.

Susan Gooch 4:50

And then when he couldn't do it, I would be certified and I could teach him. But you know what? I found my calling and I was able to help him at home as well. And so he did graduate from school and went on, has had, you know, a decent life, a nice life. But, um, that is where it kind of started from my mama just saying, no, you're gonna read and here's what you're gonna do and we're gonna work on this together. And not giving up on me. And not, with not taking the, oh, well, you know, she doesn't like to read and I don't wanna have to make her attitude.

Jebeh Edmunds 5:18

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what a blessing, of course. Like your mama and my mom also was a first grade teacher for years, so I get it. You know that that the drive to read, you know, and how your mama didn't give up on you to say, yeah, I know you wanna play, but we gotta go through these film strips and get that fluency and just how you said the dominoes just fell into place and then it's like, it just, a whole world just opened up. Like you could,

Susan Gooch 5:47

it did open up and, and a world

Jebeh Edmunds 5:49

really see yourself. Yeah.

Susan Gooch 5:50

Mm-hmm. The prison doors opened. My brain had to be rewired as when I got my, my, uh, master's in reading. Understanding that the brain is not wired naturally to read. Yes. We have to train it to read and realizing that. Oh my gosh. You know, I, I was so blessed to be given by, to be born to someone who understood that And took the time and, and, and fought me and I was, I headstrong. So I cannot imagine how difficult I was in the second and third grade when I wanted to play and not read whatever I was reading. Um, right. And especially when math was very easy for me, everything else was easy for me. And so, you know, I think sometimes when, when you're a student who, everything's easy for you and then there's something hard, you just run from it. You just run. And my mom didn't gimme that opportunity. She didn't gimme the choice because she knew the power of reading. And, um, I'm so grateful for that. And I, as an educator felt that that was my greatest strength in the classroom. Um. I always wanted the, the student of the classes that were, um, uh, the ones that had special ed with, uh, you know, the integrated classrooms. Because I wanted the students that struggled to read because I understood I wanted those kids that struggled with, with reading because I had figured it out and I believed in it. And I think if you, if you're, uh, 'cause like in high school, I remember my own kids, they would have, they would have struggles because the teacher loved the curriculum almost more than the kids. And they didn't get why the kids didn't get calculus or trig or, you know, chemistry because they loved it. And they're like, what do you mean you don't get it? And for me, I didn't get reading and I understood how hard it was to get it. And so that really made me such a stronger educator because it, I came from a place of empathy. And sympathy and having to develop it. Yeah. And you know, you can have grit, you can keep on.

Jebeh Edmunds 7:49

Keep on. Oh, I love that, Suzy, and, and how you even said, like to step back as educators to say, even if that's a passion of yours, you still need to step back and see because, you know, there's some students that love to save face. They have that book open, but you know, they have no recollection of what they read or they feel like if I read it out loud. You know, my peers are gonna tease me, and I just love how you sought for those kids that were struggling because you were in their shoes, and you can show them the steps to have that grit and open up those doors for them as well.

Susan Gooch 8:29

You talk about that. I had a name for that. It was called, it was called being a book carrier. And I would talk to my kids about that. I would say, listen, we all gotta, we all gotta have our, uh, you know, our image and what we want. So when you go to the library, I want you to get two books, especially for young boys who don't wanna be seen as reading anyway.

Jebeh Edmunds 8:48

Yes.

Susan Gooch 8:48

Oh yeah. Okay, fine. If you wanna get the, the best, the new book about the new sport person and it's this thick, you can carry that around. You can look at the pictures. I'm all good with that. Now let's slip one in the back, in the back of your backpack that's maybe this thick. Teeny tiny with little words and let's build up to that. And, um, you know, I agree with you. I think that, uh, for me, I learned, um, I would do lunch bunches where I would invite kids in to eat with me. And they would get snack, like, you know, a, a treat that, and it had to be educational okay. We live in the world where it's all gonna be tied to a lesson plan. That is not a hard workbook. I know it's not hard food that fits the lesson plan and you can use

Jebeh Edmunds 9:29

Exactly. You got it.

Susan Gooch 9:31

And so what you can do is, is then bring in those boys that wanna eat some Takis and write a short story about Takis and they have to read it.

Jebeh Edmunds 9:40

Done. Yeah, it's not that complicated.

Susan Gooch 9:43

And now when you're front loading for your 'cause, you may wanna have them write something later, a week or two later. They need to have some prior knowledge and they get to vote. So they sat around and miss an old lady Gooch's room, eating Takis, you know?

Jebeh Edmunds 9:56

I love it.

Susan Gooch 9:56

So there's some street cred there that you want them to have because now you're changing their positive, they're having positive feelings about reading and writing and interactions with educators versus, "Ugh, I hate her class. It's so boring. All we do is read."

Jebeh Edmunds 10:13

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. That is so true, Suzy. So true. So speaking of reading, I love this. You've read nearly 200 books every year, which is incredible. How has being such an avid reader shaped your own writing style? Because you are reading from 200 different authors, you know, and kind of, you know, auditing what their style is. So yeah. How has it shaped your own writing style with your series of books?

Susan Gooch 10:40

Well, it is completely, it will completely derail it if you're not very careful. I'll tell you that right now. Um, I, I find that, um, reading for me is like breathing. Um, it makes me a better person. I love to read about women characters, particularly who, um, not, or that are flawed and do better the May Angelou. Do the best you can until you know better, then do better. Um, I have found that when I find a character in, in fiction that I want to esteem to. I become a better person when I stop long enough to think, "Hmm, I have that flaw." "Hmm, I gotta do that." How did they overcome it? And I think originally that was very subconscious that I didn't know I was doing it. Um, but then over time I realized I'm gonna seek out those characters and, um, I wanna be that. And then as far as the voice, the writing for me, my writing process is a little bit different than most people's, I think, because I like to think out my whole story first and maybe even talk it out. So I get the whole story set in my head and I make notes. And then I write like scenes. It's like a movie. I'm writing a movie in my head, and so the people start talking. Does that make sense?

Jebeh Edmunds 11:54

Same. I have the same thing. Same thing. Yes. Yes.

Susan Gooch 11:58

Okay. So for me, um, when I am in that voice, I have to finish the scene. Like I need to stay and just finish it. Um, and. When I'm reading, if I'm reading something with that has a, the author has a really strong voice. Um, there was one that came out a couple of weeks ago that I read. I, if I had my phone a little closer, I'd look it up for you. But it's, it's set in Arkansas and it's about a character named Patch, I think it's Colors of the Ozarks maybe. Oh. But anyway, um, very, very, uh, Ozark. Um. The sound of the words. I mean, it was, I had to be careful because I will fall into that. And part of too writing in a southern voice is, that's my voice. I understand it. Now, Southern women are not going to use a lot of profanity, not, you know, they're gonna use it appropriately, let's just put it that way. There's place, you know, you drop it in, but you don't just every other word. And, um. So I think I will notice if I've been reading somebody or something and I, my voice suddenly sounds more like them than mine, I have to stop and I have to, I have to make a choice at that point. I finish the book and then I come back and reread and start over in my own voice, or I just put, and I don't like to not finish books. I'm a real big, um, I have, I thought about doing my a, a video series on like, how do you not not finish books and um. My advice is, and I don't know if you've ever done this, and I used to tell my students this, and it works because they, they would, they would get like halfway through a book and they wanna abandon it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got too much time in this. Okay. You, it's like going to marriage therapy. You don't throw a marriage away just 'cause after 20 years it falls apart. You try to work on it a little bit. So I'd say we're gonna go and we're gonna read backwards. So we're gonna read the last chapter and the next to the last chapter. And until we fi get some questions and some interest in the book again. And if nothing else, 'cause to me, for my classroom, not necessarily for me, but for my classroom, 70% of the book was counted as read. Okay. Because seventy's passing. And sometimes if all I could get was 70% of the book, that was 70% more than I would've got outta. So I would teach them, read backwards and um, I have found that that has actually slipped into my television watching. I love to watch series with COVID. I got, my husband and I got into series and I'm terrible. I will sneak. Oh, go. Don't do it. I'll sneak and watch the last episode. 'cause I wanna, before I go 10 episodes, I wanna make sure I don't, I'm, you know what I'm saying?

Jebeh Edmunds 14:30

I'm liking it. Yes, yes.

Susan Gooch 14:32

I don't, I, I don't wanna invest 10 hours of my life and then I get to the end and I hated the ending, so, but I, I think that was with students too. And I, I don't even know if I'm on topic anymore. I'm sorry.

Jebeh Edmunds 14:43

It's all good. I love it. Don't get me started with Lost 'cause that, Ooh, I'm still upset about that.

Susan Gooch 14:48

See, if you watched the last episode, would you have invested all that? No.

Jebeh Edmunds 14:51

No. But that's such a great strategy of like, you know, you're almost there and those students are just sitting there like, Ugh, it's so boring. It's like, just hang on, keep going. It's like you're over halfway there, just like, you're so close, don't give up. And you're right. I, you know, when, for me, if I stop in the middle of a book. I'm just interested. I'm never going back to it. So for me it's like I have to sit and just power through, like you said, you gotta power through and see what the ending is. And sometimes the ending really does surprise you that you go, oh my goodness. If I gave up, I would've never known this big plot twist, you know, and things like that. Oh, I love that. And just how you even said being a story, southern storyteller, using your culture down there and just how you said the verbiage, the, vernacular. And, and, and also trying to, you know, make yourself with your own author voice, not, you know, watered into other authors. That's really important because of how many books you have read. You don't wanna feel like you're mimicking somebody else because you are your true voice. You are your true self, and that is just so just really cool to share with our audience because for those aspiring writers, some of 'em feel like, oh, I'm not good enough because I've read all these authors and now I'm comparing myself because I don't feel like I have their style, but I love how you shared, you have your own true style in your writing. Oh, that is so nice. So let's talk about your Carrington series with Southern culture. How does that influence? Yes, yes. Let's share the book. I'm gonna put your information in our show notes. Tell us more about the Carrington series.

Susan Gooch 16:36

Yes, well, um, I moved to this little town in Arkansas 25 years ago from London, England. Um, we were at a point in my, uh, marriage where we were moving every couple of years and we had lived all over the world. And, um, we moved here. Um, and I just fell in love with this little town. It is. It has the best quality of life. It has the best public schools. It has a great community. Um, it has great little shopping. It has just good people. Just good people. And, um, I raised my kids here. My kids have all come back from college and they've raised their kids here and my parents have moved here. And so. It has provided for me this beautiful backdrop, um, that I know. So in my, my book, um, I really do believe in that concept. As a teacher, I would always say, write what you know, because, um, you, you know, some things about the, and that, that they all knew things that, that I knew nothing about, but they, that we all live with that belief of imposter syndrome, that I don't know anything and everybody's better than me. And so here's what I knew. I knew what it was like to live in a small town. I knew what it was like to be a member of a country club and have a social, um, lot of philanthropy and a lot of older women. 'Cause we had, at the time, when I first moved here, there was about eight to 10 older women that really did run the show. And, um, it mean mayors may think they're in charge of cities. Ha Not in small towns. It is run by old women. And so I decided to set it in my hometown and um, I. I will tell you that the story came about in my head during one of our, uh, end of year testings in 2012. It was the year that they decided no one could sit down. The teachers could never sit down. You could not take any notes, you couldn't write anything, you couldn't do anything. But watch the children. Now, I don't know if you've ever spent four or five days watching children take tests. Yeah, but your mind just goes, yes. And so somewhere walking around that classroom, looking at the children smiling and saying, keep working. Which is, say the story came to me, it just came to me and I started thinking this story up. 'Cause you know what? They can't control your thoughts during those tests. No, they can't. And the story just started, it just, I just, I, I saw Poppy, I saw the country club. I saw her walking in and seeing them together, Poppy, um, seeing Taylor, seeing Poppy and Bennett together. And the story just started, and I'm walking around in silence, looking at the shoulder. But in my head, there's this movie plan. Okay. And over the next four days, I'd, after school was over, I'd go write all my things down. Next day I'd pick the story back up, do it again. And so that summer, my daughter was in Europe and she, I was missing her. And so I decided I would write this book while she was gone. And I wrote it for me. I did not write this book to be published. It was my third book to write, and the first two were all for me. Um. And I would, as I would finish a chapter, I would send it to her. 'cause that was our way of communicating back and forth. She was in law school in Cambridge, and um, your summer was over, totally forgot about it, didn't do anything with it. And then years later, 2023, I'm on a trip. Some of my girlfriends were trying to find a book to read. Can't find anything. I said, y'all, I wrote a book better than this and see that imposter syndrome, like I assume that every book out there is gonna be better than the one I wrote. And so I did, I I pulled it up and I said, here, it's in my email. 'cause I'd sent it the email. They all start reading it in an airport and they're like, see, this is good. You gotta do something with it. So I took that and I, I took it. I knew I had to change it 'cause social media was different from, in 2023 than in 2012. But I knew those characters and I had lived with those characters. And I had been a teacher, Taylor's a teacher. So I, for me that is really important, is to start from what you know, um. And in fact, I'm working on something right now about a situation I don't know a lot about, and I'm having to spend a lot of time in research. I mean, a lot of time in research.

Jebeh Edmunds 21:22

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Susan Gooch 21:22

To, to educate myself. Yeah. And even with that, I told my husband this morning earlier, I was like, I just don't, I don't know if I can write this story because I don't know. I haven't lived that.

Jebeh Edmunds 21:32

Yes. Oh, that is so important. Write what you know. That's like the biggest hurdle as authors and aspiring authors are just like, uh, I don't know. And then I do research, and then you still have that in the back of your mind, but I honestly firmly believe it's on your heart. It's meant for the world to, to see and read in those scenes. Oh my gosh, Suzy, I could talk to you all day. This is just so juicy. I love it. Um. I love that advice. Just write what you know, you know, and just, yeah, because you are right. There's so many books out there by authors and you can sit in there and go, yeah, I can do it. There's a better story out there. And I have that story in my heart. I'm gonna, you know, share this with the world. That is awesome. Just love that. Um. You've answered, especially like your personal experiences living in this small town in Arkansas and the themes and the characters. Um, and I can't wait for this book that you are starting again, you know, to write and see. So I can't wait. We'll have all of your information in the show notes, but what, before we go, what is one message or takeaway you hope readers and listeners gain from your work?

Susan Gooch 22:45

Um, that it's never too late to start over. You know, um, I, I didn't, I, I really thought I would just teach till I fell over dead. I'd be like that, that movie years ago where the teacher was behind the, the, you know, of course no one would sit at a desk with a newspaper in front of them anymore. Exactly. But, um, you know, I really thought, I, I loved teaching so much and I never thought I would leave the classroom and, um. Now that I am away from education, I miss it. I miss it every day. Um, I, I definitely miss being in the classroom with children that, that I, I, I loved that. Um, but at the same time, you know, starting over at 60 years old in a new career, that's scary. I, I didn't see that happening. Um, and, you know, even with education, I, I didn't even become a teacher till I was 36. And so when you think about that for a minute, you know, like most people. You know, when I, when I came through school, you got a degree and you did that career for 40 years and you were done. That that's all you did. And, uh, now I realize that is not how the world works. These, you know, they're, they're retraining constantly. Technology is constantly co us to retrain and to, um, to living is not existing. It's living is when you constantly have new dreams. And in the third book, it's called the Dirty Birds Book Club. Ms. Ella, Ms. Edna is in her eighties and her problem is. She can't figure out where dreams and hopes come from if they're all in the past. Like where do you get new ones? And I think for all of us, you know, you've gotta have hope for tomorrow. You gotta, you gotta have some reason to get up and get dressed and plan ahead. And I think that is the secret to living.

Jebeh Edmunds 24:25

Oh yes. That purpose driven life, you know, you just, you can't just sit and, and, and regret. But like you said too, you can always shift and re you know, I always say pivot, you know, like retrain 'cause Yeah, I left, um, the classroom at, oh my goodness. In 2022, so at 42, but I had, you know, changed up in 2020 on my 40th birthday to start a business. But I do, I, I, I'm right there with you. I miss the students, I miss the classroom, but I would've really felt something was missing, you know, of this impact that I have. Of sharing with other authors around the world and change makers throughout the world than if I stayed in those four walls with my, you know, 30 some fifth graders. So it's, it's awesome to see that change and that shift, you know? And Oh, I love that. So, Suzy, where can our listeners and followers and viewers. Find this Carrington series and the Future Dirty Book Club. Dirty Birds Club.

Susan Gooch 25:26

Okay. Yeah. So, um, the Carrington Affairs and the Non-Negotiable, which are the first two books in the series are both on Amazon and they're also at any of your local book sellers. Um, if you want to, right now, this one is actually through BookBub on Amazon is. So you can get it right now on Kindle for free. Um, and then this is the second. It's not the sequel. It's a companion piece to it. Okay. I like that. Um, this book, uh, is about, uh, a local politician who, um, has to resign a disgrace when a love child comes about that he doesn't know about. And then 11 years later he can run for governor if he can get his ex-wife and his current wife to tell their story. And then this story, and they're both set in. Cece. This story is the story of the love child and his, um, because I ended up getting a master's in gifted and talented, and I'm very driven by, you know, I've told you I was very interested in helping children that struggle academically, but I believe that that GT kids are just as much a part of that. Um, as special ed kids are part of special ed? Yes. And so I have a master's in gifted and talented as well. And so the main character in this book is a 19-year-old men's, A level iq, who has already finished, um, college and is headed to grad school. Um, and she's from Napa and she wants to run a gold level winery in Napa. And she ends up in Zark, Arkansas. And, um, she's got some life choices. And the reason it happened is when I wrote this first book, my little 80-year-old mama who you know, been married to my daddy for 62 years, they're still married. She said, well, that was a book about divorce. Could you write a book about people that stay married? And so I wrote a second book about people that stay married. And then the third book is of course, the Dirty Birds Book Club. And that will be out hopefully in the next year. But you can, if you don't wanna do Amazon, you don't wanna do your booksellers. Go look me up on susangooch.com and I'll be happy to send you a copy. Um, and please follow me on Instagram and Facebook. For, y'all have to read this because I, uh, love, just like I did in the classroom. I love to recommend books and especially if you're in a book club and you, it's your turn to pick and you don't know what to pick. I give great recommendations for book clubs and, um, so please check me out there. And I wanted to tell you something. You mentioned about 40 books, uh, a year.

Jebeh Edmunds 27:34

Yes, yes.

Susan Gooch 27:34

So what I changed it, I, I realized that I was having some kids that were reading Harry Potter and some kids that were reading teeny tiny little picture books. And so I wanted to levelize the landscape a little bit. So I went to words read and I had a million dollar. Um, I did two. I did a book Bingo where you, you had to read all the genres in the nine weeks, and if you did that, you got a party at my house. And the second was if you read a million words in a year, you got another party, um, like a skating party or whatever that I paid for. And um, but you know, you would be amazed at how much somebody a kid will do to come to your house and eat cookies and, and punch. It's crazy. it's crazy.

Jebeh Edmunds 28:17

And you're like, that's all it took.

Susan Gooch 28:19

That's all it took.

Jebeh Edmunds 28:20

I love that motivation. And that's wonderful because yeah, you had some kids reading Harry Potter real thick books, and then some that were reading graphic novels. Both very important, you know, works. But again, it's really hard to say, oh, that's 40 books, but it took them longer versus another child. So I love it when you break it down to the number of words. That's awesome.

Susan Gooch 28:42

And can I do the book Bingo? Yes. That kid who wanted to read Harry Potter kind of got forced to some graphic novels and got forced into nonfiction and got forced to some, some historical fiction, and so they couldn't just live in a fantasy world.

Jebeh Edmunds 28:54

Yes.

Susan Gooch 28:56

Opposite. That kid that just wanted to read nonfiction or just wanted to read about history, they had to read a little fantasy.

Jebeh Edmunds 29:02

Yes. Yep. And that was ours too. We had to break it up with all of the genres that they had to cover, you know, in order to sign off and stuff, but, oh, that's awesome. Oh, Suzy, it was such a delight to talk to you. This was such an awesome conversation, and thank you so much for sharing your love of reading and writing and helping students succeed. Ways that show their grit and their resilience. So thank you so, so much.

Susan Gooch 29:26

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed getting to see you and talk to you, and best of luck on your writing career.

Jebeh Edmunds 29:32

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Means a lot. And thank you all for listening to the Culture Curriculum Chat podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider sharing this episode with a fellow educator and reader and writer. So until next time, we'll see you here. Same time, same place. Bye-bye.