Leading People
Gerry Murray talks to leading people about leading people. Get insights and tips from thought leaders about how to bring out the best in yourself and others.
Leading People
How to Lead Change by Getting Brains Onboard
What if the biggest barrier to change isn’t strategy or communication — but biology?
In this episode, organisational change expert Hilary Scarlett shares powerful insights from the 3rd edition of her book, Neuroscience for Organizational Change. She explains how understanding the brain can help leaders navigate resistance, foster trust, and lead transformation that sticks.
Drawing on neuroscience and real-world examples, Hilary shows why getting brains onboard — not just people — is the secret to lasting change.
Together, Hilary and Gerry discuss a wide range of topics, including:
- What neuroscience reveals about why people resist change
- Why uncertainty and ambiguity overwhelm the brain
- How to reduce threat responses and build trust during change
- What leaders can do to communicate more effectively
- How to create clarity, reward prediction, and support resilience
Whether you’re leading a restructure, launching a new initiative, or helping teams through transition — this episode offers practical guidance rooted in science and empathy.
Curious to learn more?
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Welcome to Leading People with me, gerry Marais. This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others. Every other week, I sit down with leading authors, researchers and practitioners for deep dive conversations about the strategies, insights and tools that drive personal and organizational success. And in between, I bring you one simple thing short episodes that deliver practical insights and tips for immediate use. Whether you're here for useful tools or thought-provoking ideas, leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1:Why do even the most carefully planned change initiatives often fail? What are some of the most misunderstood ideas in change leadership, especially when it comes to motivation, collaboration and how people respond to uncertainty? And what if the biggest obstacle to change is the brain itself? In this episode, my guest is workplace neuroscience expert, hilary Scarlett, and author of Neuroscience for Organizational Change. Now, in its third edition, we explore how neuroscience can help leaders design change that works with the brain, not against it. Hilary shares practical strategies to reduce threat responses, boost clarity and fairness and foster cultures of psychological safety. It's a conversation full of insights for anyone leading people through uncertainty, transformation or growth. Here's our conversation, rhi Scarlett. Welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:And you're coming in from which part of the world today?
Speaker 2:I'm based in London, UK.
Speaker 1:Right Now. You've just released the third edition of your book Neuroscience for Organizational Change, and we're going to get to that in a few minutes, but first, so my listeners can get to know you better, how did you come to focus your work at the intersection of neuroscience and organizational change, and were there any pivotal people, places or moments that shaped this journey to where you are today, or moments?
Speaker 2:that shaped this journey to where you are today. I've worked in organizational change for many years and, gosh, probably about 15, 20 years ago or so I was doing studies in psychology, postgraduate studies in psychology, and there I came across an article written by a psychiatrist saying we can now understand enough about the human brain to apply that to the world of work, and that really caught my interest, thinking perhaps if we can bring a bit more science and evidence to what goes on when we're going through change, that would be really helpful. So originally I went off and studied virtually with neuroscientists in the States. Over the last 10 years or so I've been working with neuroscientists here in the UK, particularly at University College London, and I kind of see my role as taking their work out of the lab and bringing it into the workplace in a practical way. So that's what my work is it's to make sure there's science. But perhaps more importantly, what does that mean to us as leaders in organizations?
Speaker 1:Right, and you're doing a lot of consulting work, I believe.
Speaker 2:That's exactly. Yeah, I think probably 95% of my work now is working with neuroscience, applied neuroscience, working with leaders, managers, all people Because I am just a big believer that if you could understand your brain better, how helpful that will be, Because I think for all of us it's our key work tool, so to speak, and you know we have good days and bad days, and I think if we can understand our brains, maybe we can enable ourselves to have more good days at work.
Speaker 1:Right. So for my listeners out there, there's a lot of really rich stuff coming up, because you're going to probably give us some examples later on as we get through this conversation. So stay tuned, because we're going to explore this topic and, let's face it, organizational change is everywhere.
Speaker 1:Right, it's, it's constant right, so let's, let's just now get to the book. Let's explore why this book and why now but you've been exploring this field, as you say, for years and what's kind of changed in our understanding of neuroscience and what made you feel that now was the time to revisit and expand the book.
Speaker 2:It's the third edition so what was the third edition?
Speaker 2:That's right, and that the the first edition came out um nine years ago, um, so it's been a while since I wrote the first edition.
Speaker 2:The second edition came out about three years after that, and the reason um now to go to a third edition um is because piker's technology is moving on, so revealing more things. In fact, one of the reasons why we're hearing so much about neuroscience generally is technology. That up until pretty recently, neuroscience was a pretty grim and gory science, because the main way we learned about the brain was from babies born with some kind of brain damage. Adults who acquired brain damage during their lives are looking at the brains of animals, but technology means that neuroscientists can now look at the likes of us people with healthy brains and see what's going on. And what's really moving on again is portable technology, so the ability to do what's called hyperscanning, where neuroscience can look at multiple brains at the same time in the workplace, um in the school, in college and university, wherever and that's what's moving on our knowledge again. So there are a couple of areas that um hyperscanning really helps and that's what caught my interest.
Speaker 1:So it's time to explore that more okay, and and actually, when you mentioned this demystifying of the neuroscience and actually the emergence in the last 10-15 years of this notion of applied neuroscience, which is not having to know all the detail of how the brain works, but actually knowing the impact it's having when it shows up in different contexts, there's also it just reminded me that there's a fantastic book by a French neuroscientist called Stanislas Dehaene and it's entitled how we Learn, and one of the key tenets of this book is how AI people and neuroscientists are working together and they're actually finding ways to complement each other's work, because the AI guys are trying to code the brain stuff and because of the way they're trying to code it mathematically and algorithmically, it's actually feeding into a better understanding of aspects of the brain.
Speaker 1:So he, one of his key points in the early part of his book, which I read a couple of years ago, is really about like we're at it with a kind of interface of these two things, where technology and neuroscience is actually coming together in a complementary way, which is quite fascinating really. Um, okay, so let's get into the whole concept of change, um, and why it's so difficult at an organizational level. So as human beings, we're actually quite adaptable. You know we survive. Darwin will probably say you know, he'd have his say about how that was. And yet we, we often resist change, which is about usually adapting. And from a neuroscience perspective, what is it about organizational change that creates such friction in our brains, and what can leaders do differently once they understand this?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, absolutely I think. Um, it reminds me a while ago I was working with the um IT the tech team in one of the large banks and I remember when they were asking how come people always want the latest device, the latest iPhone, whatever. Yet when it comes to IT change at work, everybody hates it and resists it. And I think one of the big differences is choice. Choice makes a big difference. If I've chosen now to have my new iPhone or whatever, that's exciting. If I feel that IT change is being imposed upon me, that's more difficult.
Speaker 2:So I think, as you say, we are incredibly resilient creatures. We're incredibly adaptable. There are people out there living in space, we live in all parts of the world, but our brains are brilliant things. But organizational change does take away some of the things that our brains really want. So one of the things our brains really want to do is they want to be able to predict, because if they can predict what's coming up, they're better placed to protect us, and it's all about survival for the brain.
Speaker 2:And change often means we can't predict. We don't know what's coming up. Also, our brains tend to like habits. They use a huge amount of energy a disproportionate amount of energy for their size. So our brains on the whole like habits. They like things to stay as they are.
Speaker 2:Again, what does change mean? Change means things are going to be different. I'm going to have to change the way I do things, and also that bit about choice and control.
Speaker 2:And research does show that organizational change that feels unpredictable and uncontrollable is incredibly stressful to the human brain. And I guess if we all think back five years ago COVID five years ago unpredictable, uncontrollable, very stressful. So that's one of the reasons why it can be so difficult and I think, particularly for leaders. One of the things leaders need to remember is that bit about unpredictable and controllable. Leaders probably have more sight over what's coming up. They probably have a bit more influence over what's coming up, and I think they need to stay mindful of the fact that people further down the organization don't have that same sense of control and ability to see what is coming up, so their brains are probably a more stressed place than those of leaders I mean, in some ways, the challenge leaders have is they spend quite some time figuring out the change stuff obviously covid's different because it comes at you, but a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:They figure it out and then, um, they cannot not know what they know and at the same time, they're not aware that other people don't know it, and so they think they're thinking ahead, as you say, and yet the vast majority of people don't even know why we have to go through this right. And then you have this disconnect with the messaging doesn't get across and the leaders are surprised that people are resisting what they think is the obvious and logical thing to do.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think a couple of points one that research shows we become leaders, as you say, we kind of forget that other people don't know what we know, and there is research around that that we kind of assume people have the same information as us.
Speaker 2:And I think the other thing that, as you say, I think leaders have that time to go into darkened rooms with consultants or whoever look at the data, look at the information, think it through and work out why option A is better than B or C. But then I think a lot of organizations, in their haste to get on with change, then go to broadcast mode and kind of go here's the plan, here's what's good for you, here's what's good for customers, here's what's good for stakeholders, now please get on with it. And then wonder why most employees dig their heels in and in many cases it's because employers have not had that chance to get it in the same way that leaders have. And that bit about having that moment of insight of oh, I get it, I can see why option A is better. It makes a big difference to our brains, that moment of insight, and I think that's a really important step that a lot of organizations miss in terms of change is giving employees that chance to get that moment of understanding, that moment of insight.
Speaker 1:On Leading People. The goal is to bring you cutting edge thought leadership from many of the leading thinkers and practitioners in leadership today. Each guest shares their insights, wisdom and practical advice so we can all get better at bringing out the best in ourselves and others. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share a link with friends, family and colleagues and stay informed by joining our leading people LinkedIn community of HR leaders and talent professionals. And, like you, talk about prediction. Well, I mean as well.
Speaker 1:Well, amongst the neuroscience community, it's well known that the brain is a predicting, constantly predicting machines trying to anticipate risk is trying to anticipate outcomes all the time. People may not realize that, but your brain is constantly trying to work out what's happening. But the habits thing is quite a powerful one. I actually yesterday was it yesterday or the day before?
Speaker 1:I do this regular webinar at the European institutions here in Belgium called Learning to Learn, and actually what we focus on is habit, because when we acquire a skill, become accomplished at something, we want it to be habitual, because that means it's embedded in us. However, having to unlearn things and there's a lot of literature coming out now, I think, around actually to learn something new, you have to unlearn things that you already know, and we run against these kind of little technical things like the myelination of you know. What makes us able to do things is the strengthening of the neural connections, and sometimes what we've been asked to do is that. Maybe I'm wrong here, but we've been asked to do during changes, to unravel some of that and then create different or new connections or complementary connections.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, absolutely. And what can be very hard is it can be very hard for the brain to unlearn it. Because you're right, when we've got habits or ways of doing things, it's kind of like we've got a path in the brain and when we want to change that habit it's kind of like saying to the brain you've got to leave that path and create another new path elsewhere. Obviously, from a brain point of view, the brain would rather stick with the well-known path. It's easier, it's less effortful for us. Research also shows it's less stressful for us when we're using habits. But absolutely we can create that new path and once we've used it 50, 100 times it'll become well established.
Speaker 2:But one of the professors I work with at UCL does a lot of work with elite athletes. He was telling me a story a while ago about working with an elite female tennis player and she'd wanted to change the grip on her forehand, I think it was. She practiced and practiced, not quite enough. He thought she got into a match and, sure enough, she used the new grip but then suddenly got into a tight spot in the match and suddenly went back to the old grip. And I think that's a great example if those new habits are not well enough established. When we're under pressure, when we're stressed or indeed when we're tired, our brains will quite often go back to those old habits. It's actually quite hard for the brain quite often to get rid of that old path. So we need to make sure that the new path, the new habit, the new pattern of thinking whatever it is we want is better established than the old one okay, so I'm.
Speaker 1:So. What's emerging here? Um, I mean, I have some questions here, but what's emerging is a sort of kind of complementariness to what I have written down here in front of me, and that is a lot of change. Perhaps is communicated as a lot of what, and often the blocker is where, in the how, you know and you talk about the neuroscience and and the value of it and the value of leaders knowing about this and being aware of the impact it's having on the people that they're asking to change. And you've worked, probably in organizational change 20 odd years ago using the classic techniques of you're getting people into a room and talking about this, and all those techniques are probably still valid. What are some of the extra things you're doing now with the neuroscience distinctions to help people prepare their brains for what's coming up, and how are leaders embracing or resisting that, even in terms of like, what's the convincing process you're going through to say we have to spend a bit more time on this before we jump into that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I mean mean, there's lots of little things, I think, that make a difference and I think in many ways, neuroscience um for many of us, I think in some ways it kind of um supports our gut feelings about what's the right thing to do. So I think, from a lot of managers and leaders, um actually is kind of a relief in some ways. So those things I'm doing that I thought maybe were right, oh, they are a good thing to do. I can remember one leader in a workshop I was running saying oh, so the fact I take the team out for a cup of coffee on a Monday morning, that's not a frivolous thing to do, that's a good thing to do, it's absolutely.
Speaker 2:Social connection is so important to us and I think that's one of the things that neuroscience really brings home is the importance of feeling I belong. We are deeply social creatures and especially during times of change, we need to feel that we belong and that our manager cares about us. So little things like that or other things, like just having a good old laugh with the team as well. You know, again, various managers, leaders I've worked with, you know, like to have a bit of fun. But is that a bit frivolous and the message is no, having a good old laugh with the team is a really good thing to do. Laughter is a great de-stressor to the brain and there's also research from Warwick University that shows that having a good old laugh actually in the short term increases our IQ by a little bit. Just quite a short-term effect. So it's these little things. And so that bit about choice giving people a bit of choice, a bit of control, makes a big difference to us. No one wants to feel they're a complete victim of what's going on.
Speaker 2:I think the importance of short-term wins that people change. I think we often feel a bit daunted. Am I up to it? Am I capable of it? I know I used to be able to use the old systems competently, but will I be able to do that with the new system? So I think the more people can have little wins and feel like they are winners, it changes the chemicals in our brains and it sets our brains up to take on bigger challenges. So making people feel like they're doing well, or indeed, if people are struggling right now, again just going to think about a time when they felt they were being really successful and doing really well. And to the brain. It's kind of almost like the brain is back there again and just gives people a bit more confidence if they're kind of struggling with the change around. So I think part of the beauty of neuroscience is lots of little things can make a big difference to us in terms of change.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I guess a lot of these little things are in the book.
Speaker 2:And they are Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:There's a whole yeah, no, throughout the book and there's a specific chapter that's all about these little things, about how do we get brains back on track, how do we keep people performing when they are in the midst of uncertainty?
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's a special offer coming up later. So stay tuned everyone, because Hilary's going to. We're going to dive into one or two of the things you mentioned there. A reference there, because you you've in the book you talk, make a link between neuroscience and collaboration. You've already mentioned this idea of social and you you talk about this concept of interbrain synchronization and the social brain. So could you explain, uh, how these ideas help us understand what either enables or blocks the collaboration during change efforts?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I mean, interbrain synchronization is one of the things that kind of drove me to to write, write the the third edition. Um, because the great thing for me about writing third edition is is my opportunity to go back and work with a neuroscientist and talk to them and learn from them, so I learn more than anybody else in a way. So interbrain synchronization caught my interest. It's enabled by the ability now of neuroscientists to kind of put these little caps on people EEG caps or FNIRs caps so we can wear them in the organization. And it means that neuroscience can now look at multiple brains at the same time. And there's this really interesting studies coming out about when our brains begin to synchronize, the same parts of the brain begin to activate at the same time in the same way. It suggests that we're beginning to see the world from a similar perspective as others, so really important in terms of trying to reach consensus or agreement around things. But there's also research that shows that brains that begin to synchronize teams begin to perform better. There's research that shows children in school, when their brains are synchronizing in the classroom, they're more engaged, they're retaining information better. There's research that shows when we're beginning to synchronize we seem to have more psychological safety. We seem to be more prepared to share information with people. So there's all sorts of interesting reasons why interbrain synchronization is significant to us in the organization. It's the ability to collaborate, this ability to perform better as a team.
Speaker 2:And also, interestingly, neuroscience does reveal what are some things that help that? Well, some things that help that are the more we know people on the whole, the more our brains start to synchronize. So there's studies done with mothers and children and their brains will synchronize a lot together. But really interesting on that, one mother and child talking together, face to face, their brains will synchronize a lot. Put them onto a screen and their brains will synchronize less. So I think there are some interesting questions there in terms of what work is best done where, because communicating via screen seems to reduce interbrain synchronization. Um, all that said, there are times when you don't want brains to synchronize. If you want people to be creative and having different ideas, then you don't want people to look at the world from a similar perspective. You want differing views.
Speaker 1:So again, it's just making people aware of the benefits of interbrain synchronization and times when we need it and times when it's less useful yeah, it reminds me of some workshops I would have been involved in years ago where people would have seen this as esoteric type stuff and yet it's actually real. Um, this ability for people to. It's almost like finishing each other's sentences. There is a sort of there's a science behind it. It's just it sometimes feels a bit weird. How did that person I, I know what you're thinking, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:But it does happen when people form those deep connections or you have things like mirror neurons anyway and other factors that are are creating that bond. And my theory on the screen thing is that when people feel connected, there's an energy field that binds them and the screen interferes with that sense of the and we can't explain energy connection. We know when we have it and we know it when we don't. You know it's that just feeling and in some languages they have expressions around that which you know, around how they sense other people and the screen tends to I think it tends to diminish some of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And hurrah for technology. We're having this conversation today because of technology, so hurrah for technology in many ways. But yeah, there's a price to pay with it as well. We just need to be aware of what work is best done where.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So we've got this interbrain synchronization. Now, another key factor that is playing out in the change, change process and and you kind of refer to it earlier because you're you're kind of a lot of what you said earlier tends to be activating the reward systems in the brain and, let's say, playing down or controlling that sort of amygdala. Um, you know more emotional area. So let's get into the emotional stuff now a little bit, because you touch on a concept which is emerging as quite a hot topic called interoception, and let's talk about interoception, what that is, and decision making on distress and how people interpret uncertainty and what leaders can do to to, let's say, support people when they're going through what they feel emotionally charged transitions yeah, and again, I think the emotional, emotional aspects of change is so important and I think, again, it's one of those areas we kind of perhaps underestimate the importance of emotions in terms of how we work, how we perform, how we feel about organizational change.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, as you say, interception is another really interesting new area and that was another reason it drove me to want to write the third edition, to go and explore it more with, with neuroscientists, and what it's all about is that ability to pick up on our that.
Speaker 2:We talk about gut feelings and again, science says there's something to it.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, we do have gut feelings, um, but and and it's about the ability to pick up accurately on the, on those feelings, and some people are better at it than others. There was a really interesting study done in a city with traders a guy called John Coates who was a trader, now a neuroscientist at Cambridge and he was interested in why were some traders just making better decisions better under stress lasted a long time in what was quite a stressful job, and one of the things they found with city traders the ones who were really successful is they were better at interception. In this particular case, they were better at picking up what their heart rate was without putting their hand on their heart or their pulse. They didn't know they were better at it, but those who were tended to make the better decisions under stress, and there's other research that shows people who are good at interception um tend to be able to regulate their emotions better, which is so important during change, and um they're just better to better picking up on them accurately, um. So that's that.
Speaker 1:That's really important, that bit to manage emotions I've read, I've heard about that study and, um, I think if somebody's out there now maybe thinking, but okay, so I'm doomed, I don't have it, actually I think the science is starting to show that you can learn. It isn't that right?
Speaker 2:absolutely that's. That's the really good news. That that is the really good news. We can all get better at it and quite simple things and just things like anyone who practices yoga, when they're just doing that body scan once a day, makes us better at picking up on interception on our gut feelings, internal feelings. So we can get better at it. That's the really good news. Again, it's one of those things we can all improve on.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then let's talk about decision making under stress. What does stress do to our ability to make decisions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this is an interesting one in terms of, um, male and female, where decisions begin to differ between men and women, that that, um, men under stress will take more risks, women under stress will take fewer risks. Um, so it's actually being in organizations. But under long, long, long-term stress, men will begin become more cautious too. But again, it's one of those things to just be aware of, of the different reactions of men and women under stress, but also to be aware that when you've got a mixed group of men and women, that the male risk-taking tends to take over. So the importance of listening to everybody in the room, because the risk-taking will tend to dominate if you've got more men in the room, if you've got men in the room with women. So it's just one of the things to be aware of, that why we differ.
Speaker 1:And there have been studies about the success rate of, let's say, female heavy board of management during crisis situations, and perhaps this explains a little bit what's going on in terms of maybe not just their ability to manage risk under stress and stressful situations. There may be some other aspects of empathy and that compassion maybe sitting underneath it as well, which we yeah, um, we may or may not get to. Um, how, how important is that? Uh, empathy and compassion when it comes to change?
Speaker 2:I mean hugely important. I think you know, I think I say we are in deeply social creatures more than we probably realize, I think I, I do think that, think that the need for social connection, that sense of empathy with us, I think is one of those areas we've underestimated at work. I think we get it in our personal lives that relationships matter and on the whole, when relationships are good, life is pretty good. But I do think it's one of those areas historically in organizations we've kind of expected employees to walk through the workplace door, either metaphorically, and somehow things shouldn't affect us in quite the same way, because we're professionals, so it shouldn't affect us quite the same way. But we absolutely do. It's. It say we are social creatures, we're constantly checking out do I fit in, do I belong? And that bit about empathy and feeling that we're understood is is important and it goes right back to, you know, when we're babies.
Speaker 2:As mammals, we start as babies. As babies we wouldn't make it through our first weeks, months, years of life without someone taking an interest in us. And babies will scream and cry when they're tired and they're hungry, but also when they're separated from their caregiver, because babies absolutely know is somebody interested in me? Do they care about me? If they do, I'm okay, if not, I'm not okay. And that kind of carries on throughout life less overtly, but again it's all feeling does my manager care about me? Are they interested in me? If they are, I'm okay, if not, I'm not okay. So that need for social connection there's nothing soft about it. It has a big impact on our ability to perform and our staying power and our resilience.
Speaker 1:So social connection, empathy, really important and there are so many different studies and methodologies out there that continue to even gallop's 12 famous engagement factors. One of them is I have somebody who cares about me at work right.
Speaker 1:And the uncertainty bit then, because, let's face it, everything is uncertain if you think about it right, because you and I don't even know what we're going to say next. That's uncertain. Yeah, we're dealing with it right, we're kind of dealing with it, okay. So what is it about uncertainty and how can leaders give certainty to the uncertainty? You're listening to Leading People with me, gerry Murray. My guest this week is workplace neuroscience expert Hilary Scarlett Coming up. We explore why giving people certainty, fairness and a sense of control is far more powerful than most leaders realise, and what happens in the brain when we get those things. Right Now back to our conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question, I think, especially at the moment. I think there's just so much uncertainty generally in the world it's not just in the workplace, I think. You know we're faced with so much uncertainty in what's going in all sorts of ways. So I think it's particularly relevant at the moment. And a couple of things. I was working with an organization last year where they knew changes were coming up and they were HR changes, so they're going to affect people's jobs, but they didn't know what the changes were. So a couple of things we talked about with managers and leaders.
Speaker 2:There is one be a good listener. You can always listen. You might not have the answers, but actually being listened to, not surprisingly, is rewarding to the brain, just feeling that we're being really listened to. And I think the other thing is giving certainty about what you can give certainty about. So you might not be able to give certainty about when the change will happen or what they will be, but just giving people certainty about the relationship they have with you and the way in which you will communicate with them, that you can say to them okay, I don't know what's coming up, but I promise you I'll sit down with you every Thursday morning or whatever it is, and I'll tell you what I know and I don't know. So giving them certainty around that. And again, I think the importance of short-term goals when people are feeling very uncertain, that as long as people can feel I've achieved something today, I can tick things off my list. That kind of feels good. So short-term goals can be really useful in a time of uncertainty Because, as you say, our brains are prediction machines.
Speaker 2:They crave certainty but they can never have it. As you say, we can are prediction machines. They crave certainty but they can never have it. As you say, we can never have it, but it's one of the things our brains want. And again, I think it's one of the things that's really useful to be aware of that our brains want it but they're never going to have it. So the little things that we can do, and even small things, what are even small things like?
Speaker 2:I go to so many sessions where people say you know, especially during change, meetings have been called meetings, have been put into their calendars or diaries, but they don't know why. And because that threat state is so much, the middle of the threat state is so much stronger in our brains, we all kind of panic and go what's it about it? What have I done wrong? It must be bad news. So just little things like just send an agenda or tell people what the purpose of the meeting is. It's these little things that settle the brain. Oh, that's what the meeting's about. I can focus back on my work now. It's these little things that help provide certainty for people and help people focus back on work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had several guests on the program, A lot of what you just said. Some of them came in and Adam Galinsky Professor. Adam said some of them came in and Adam Galinsky professor talked about this thing about the email, without telling you what it is and people you know, distorting what could be and getting all stressed out about it.
Speaker 1:I've had Margaret Heffernan on talking about embracing uncertainty and how you know we can't predict the future and there's lots of role models out there for doing that, etc. So and one of the things that I think really important is this idea of short-term goals, and not just the short-term goals that give quick wins, but the celebration of those right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. Because I think again, because the threat stage is so much stronger in our brain, we all tend to kind of kick ourselves about the things I didn't do or I didn't get right. So, as you say, I think you know stopping and pausing with the team and focusing on what we have done well, what we have gone right, because the brain will tend to move on and worry about the next thing. So I think we need to with the brain, we need to kind of deliberately counterbalance that impact, that desire to go to the threat, to the negative, to protect ourselves, and deliberately activate the reward center in our brains. So, just as you say say, thinking about the successes, the things we've done well, is really important yeah, and the, the, the, the threat part of our brain is is valuable.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's there for a reason and we should pay attention to it and, at the same time, if it starts running the show, it can inhibit a lot of things for us.
Speaker 1:So we, we know it can stress us out, and that now, an emerging area which is getting uh well, it's been inhibit a lot of things for us, so it can stress us out. Now, an emerging area which is getting well, it's been getting a lot of, I suppose, focus in the last few years and now, I think, in some parts of the world, becoming part of a political discussion. But this whole idea of neurodiversity, right, and then linking it also to psychological safety, these are two themes that have come back into the book for you, or come into the book in this new edition. Why is this so important now and what role does neuroscience play in creating safer, more inclusive workplaces where people can thrive through change, regardless of how they are as people? So if they have a neurodiverse profile or whatever, it's part of acceptance, right, and it's allowing people to be themselves at work, and the whole idea of psychological safety is about that as well. So can you talk about that and how you decided to include this in the new edition?
Speaker 2:In the third edition. Yeah, I think, because I think you know just about, as you said, there's much more awareness, I think, of neurodivergence now neurodiversity, and I think most workshop sessions I run now there'll always be a question about how does this apply to people who are neurodivergent? What does it mean if I'm managing a team where people are neurodivergent and research shows about 20% of the population is neurodivergent, so that's a big percentage of the workforce or potential workforce, because it can be harder for neurodivergent people to find work. So I think it's really important from both sides for neurodivergent people to create a workplace where they feel they can thrive. But also it kind of makes economic sense from organizations and countries' point of view to get these people to get you know, enable people to work and to feel they can contribute. So yeah, so I thought it was really important to include it in the book because lots of questions about it and that chapter in the book on neurodiversity, what I've mainly done is gone out to talk to people who are neurodivergent but also experts in change, so getting so actually that part, that chapter of the book, is slightly different. It's got three kind of conversations with people who are neurodivergent but experts in change as well and just them talking about their experience of change and what helped them. And I think interesting.
Speaker 2:A lot of things that help neurodivergent people actually I think are good for all of us. You know, know the things people will talk about, um, about um, open plan offices, the lighting, the distractions, um, are difficult for all of us and research shows we all, all our cortisol levels go up when we're working in open plan office, um, but for neuro diversion people is that bit worse it, it impedes their ability to work. That that bit more so. And I think the message came home loud and clear that sometimes neurodivergent people just need a bit more time to reflect. So there might be an announcement and they might like to go away and think about it overnight and come back the next day. But again, I think that's good for most employees actually, that chance to go home, reflect, think about it, ask questions the next day.
Speaker 2:But particularly for neurodivergent people sometimes, um, and they had those one-to-one conversations that came home loud and clear from the people I spoke to that one person talked about just having a manager who just each day, just checked in with her are you okay? What do you? What's your plan for today. What are you getting done? She said that made such a difference. Another man I spoke to said, yeah, again, just be able to have that ability to have one-to-ones with the manager to talk about it.
Speaker 2:And I think the other thing that came home is you know, when we have change, as we've said, you know, habits, systems need to change.
Speaker 2:For some neurodivergent people that can be harder because they've got real workarounds that you know, using a certain system or way of doing things, that's what they've kind of made work for them in the workplace and change might take that away and they might be that bit more dependent on that old system. So, again, just recognizing some of those changes can be harder for neurodivergent people than the neurotypical people. Psychological safety I think again really important for all of us, but particularly again for neurodivergent people that sense of I can be me, I can ask the daft question, so to speak. I, yeah, yeah, I can ask the daft question, so to speak. Yeah, I can ask questions, although I'm being constructive and helpful and doing it with the right mindset. That's what we need, again, important for all of us, but I think particularly for neurodivergent people, to feel that they're safe and they can ask questions or make comments or whatever, as long as it's being constructive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just read recently, uh, another article by amy edmondson oh yeah, I think it was in the harvard business review, about clarifying what your psychological safety is. Not because, like, everything is developing its own legs yes, a bit of mythology and simplification and exaggeration and all sorts of things. So that article is is an attempt to to kind of say you know this, this is what it is and this is what it's not, even though sometimes organization, I think, a lot of in some situations not a lot, but some situations there's a simplification of these things and then, um, they're interpreted in a certain way and and then they actually lose their impact. You know, because she says like, for example, psychologically safety just to cite one thing, is is not about necessarily being nice all the time.
Speaker 1:It you know, it's maybe more about being respectful rather than just being nice, so it's not about just going. Oh, we have to be always accommodating everybody's requests. Here it's about a way to express things, to respect people, to allow people to express themselves, to have their opinions, without being judged by those. So it's kind of interesting to also explore those things. So you have it in the change context and that's because of the potential for the fight or flight parts of the brain to be activated, even if a team has psychological safety before the change is announced, what impact does it have and how can organizations and leaders you know ensure that it doesn't disrupt a psychologically safe team?
Speaker 2:yeah, because it's, and it's quite a precious thing. Psychological safety as well, because it's, it's, it's uh, you know it's hard to build and easy to lose, I think, because it could take, especially if leads are under pressure or stressed. You know, somebody suddenly gets angry with somebody for saying something or snaps at them or whatever. That could have a real hit in terms of psychological safety. So you know, I think again it goes, it clings back to, particularly for leaders, this bit about emotional regulation. But to manage their emotions is so important as part of psychological safety, because psychological safety, safety, it really is where leads have to be role models. It starts with them. That ability to share information, to disclose information, to ask for feedback in a constructive way, I mean it. It absolutely starts, starts with them. So it's um, yeah, so I think psychological safety, emotional regulation kind of go together in a sense in terms of the importance of them okay.
Speaker 1:So I guess at this stage, if I put myself in the shoes of my listeners we've talked a lot about a lot of the key concepts here and they might be craving for a couple of examples, like from organizations who are actually doing this. So it's not just fine in theory. They're actually organizations out there and you write about them, I believe, in the book uh who are actually exploring this and how to use it, how to use the neuroscience constructively during change.
Speaker 2:So would you like to share a few um yeah, I mean just on the um, on the neurodiversity. I spoke to phillips, um, who are an organization that seems to be really ahead of the game in terms of neurodiversity and what they're doing is setting up lots of networks neurodiversity networks across the organisation and part of that is about enabling people who are neurodivergent to deal with change, to come and talk about their particular issues and what they're doing is giving them kind of tactics and tips as to how to deal with change, to come and talk about their particular issues and what they're doing is giving them kind of tactics and tips as to how to navigate through change. So philips, I think, is a really interesting organization in terms of of neurodiversity and change um. Another organization I've been working with over the years is pepsico and um. Again, I think they've been really struck by the emotional sides of change, the social aspects of change. That's come from neuroscience. So, talking to them, they're a case study in this new third edition and what they've really taken on board is that bit about treating leaders as people, so allowing leaders to talk about their emotions and how they're doing.
Speaker 2:Leaders to talk about their emotions and how they're doing. They've really picked up on that. They said, every workshop, every coaching session starts off talking about the leader as a person. How are you, how are you doing? And rather than going into you as a leader, it's you as a person, because recognizing it's so important for leaders to be able to manage their emotions again, to feel that people have got empathy for them as leaders, to be able to manage their emotions again, to feel that people have got empathy for them as leaders.
Speaker 2:And also what it led them to do, I think, is this sense of trust and dealing with uncertainty. It meant what they did in certain cases is kind of disclose information to certain levels of managers they wouldn't normally have done before, but they said it was really important, they kind of trusted them and nothing leaked, it worked. And they said that really built a good bond between leaders and those managers because the managers felt I'm being trusted, I'm having information shared with me. At the moment that's kind of confidential, but I need it to be able to be a good manager. So, again, as they say, it's a mindset. I think PepsiCo they would say PepsiCo UK would say it shifted their mindset about, about change, how you go about it and just recognizing what's what.
Speaker 1:These kind of fundamental things we need in order to enable people to change now you I think you mentioned pepsico uk and and how does that relate to? From your experience of this, how does it relate to pepsico worldwide? I because I have read stuff in the past where PepsiCo was quite harsh driven environment right. So it's very encouraging to hear these stories. And has there been a culture change in the entire organization or is this something that's bubbling up from the local entities?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've worked with PepsiCo Europe and PepsiCo UK, so that's kind of the limit of my knowledge. But certainly, yeah, I mean they're honest about it. They will say that they're not just doing this to be nice, they're doing it to do it because it helps the bottom line as well, that if you take people through change well and people feel good and capable and competent, that's a good thing for the organization in terms of performance. So they've got you know, they've got that commercial mouth to them. Yeah, they're not doing it just to be nice, they're doing it because they believe it gives them a competitive edge too. And I think you know they would say that's partly you know why they've caught the attention of the organization. Because this is about performance for all employees, isn't it Abel's performance?
Speaker 1:Yes, and the brain is a key variable in our ability to perform anything, isn't that right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. For most of us, that's pretty much all we've got is our brains is our key work tool. We're not out there working on the land, so absolutely it's the key bit to understand and work with yeah, and remarkable how it isn't it's still an emerging thing to put it into the mix.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about things like organizational change, it's still, you know, we still have to communicate to people that and when, when we're asking for better performance, etc. We have to talk about the brain because, you know, it's not like some sort of um, I don't know, uh, just okay, just go do it. I mean, if you're, if you're not in a in a good place emotionally or whatever, you're feeling fatigued or you're feeling stressed or whatever it is, you might not be able to rise to the occasion for that period of time or in that context and equally, you know, you might be overstimulated on, you know, as at times as well. So it is understanding this, which is which is quite critical, right no, absolutely, because it it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because our brains are what we've, what we've got and I think you know to understand them and work with it. Yeah, it is so important.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, coming to the end, what's the big idea or key takeaway that you'd like our listeners to leave with today?
Speaker 2:I think the big one for me is if we can understand our brains better, then we can work with that knowledge, and I think we have got more control over our brains than we probably realize. Just having that awareness of what's going on for us, I think, gives us choice about how we respond in the moment. So for me that's the big one is if we can understand our brains better, we can work with that knowledge or we can help ourselves and others perform better and, in terms of emotional wellbeing too, we can help ourselves flourish, I think.
Speaker 1:Okay. So how can people get in touch with you and is there anything special? We hinted at it earlier that you'd like to offer them, and I'll put links in the show notes. So, Hilary, how can people reach out to you and what is the special offer?
Speaker 2:Do reach out to me on linkedin or you can come via the website scarletandgraycom. But I'm on linkedin. I'm quite active on linkedin, so do come and find me on linkedin and my publisher will give a discount offer to the third edition, which is actually coming out on the third of july in most of the world and end of july in north america and canada. So it's not out until July, but I can provide an offer that will get people at least 25% off the book by my publisher.
Speaker 1:And if you're listening to this in 2026, which can happen you'll know that this book is widely available by that stage on all good bookshops, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from 3rd of July. It's 3rd of July 25, it'll be out there.
Speaker 1:So reach out to Hilary, mention the podcast and Hilary will send you a code for a special special discount, and you can even pre-order the book, I believe, if you're listening to this in the meantime. So, as always, hilary thanks a lot for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.
Speaker 2:Pleasure. Thanks very much for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 3:When you're in a position of power, you release more chemical messengers that affect your mood, including serotonin, and so once you get that kind of addictive notion of you're in power, you kind of continue to seek the reward and at the same time, when you're in a position of power, your empathy is reduced. So you start feeling less empathy with other people.
Speaker 1:My next guest is BBC journalist and science writer Melissa Hogenboom, whose new book Breadwinners explores how power. Whose new book Breadwinners explores how power, gender, ambition and leadership intersect at work and at home. It's a fresh take on what really drives behaviour, how invisible norms shape our choices and what leaders can do to make change that sticks. And remember, before our next full episode, there's another One Simple Thing episode waiting for you A quick and actionable tip to help you lead and live better. Keep an eye out for it wherever you listen to this podcast Until next time.
