Leading People
Gerry Murray talks to leading people about leading people. Get insights and tips from thought leaders about how to bring out the best in yourself and others.
Leading People
How Breadwinners Don’t Always Win
What if bringing in the dough doesn’t always mean having the power?
In this episode, BBC journalist Melissa Hogenboom explores how breadwinning roles — in families and at work — are shaped by power dynamics, gender norms, and invisible expectations.
Whether you’re a leader, a parent, or both, this conversation will challenge how you think about success, status, and sharing the load.
Together, we discuss:
- Why power at home and power at work are more connected than we think
- How gender roles are evolving — and where they’re stuck
- Why some people feel pressure to perform, even when they don’t hold power
- What leaders and organisations can do to create more balanced dynamics
- How to open up space for empathy, equity, and trust
You'll also discover the Parenting Amplification Effect.
This episode provides a fresh take on power, ambition, and what it means to thrive — at work and at home.
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Welcome to Leading People with me, gerry Marais. This is the podcast for leaders and HR decision makers who want to bring out the best in themselves and others. Every other week, I sit down with leading authors, researchers and practitioners for deep dive conversations about the strategies, insights and tools that drive personal and organizational success. And in between, I bring you one simple thing short episodes that deliver practical insights and tips for immediate use. Whether you're here for useful tools or thought provoking ideas, leading People is your guide to better leadership. Thought-provoking ideas Leading People is your guide to better leadership.
Speaker 1:What does power do to your brain and your relationships? Why do so many women still carry the burden of unpaid work, even when they out-earn their partners? And what happens when men feel disempowered but can't admit it? In this episode of Leading People, science journalist and author Melissa Hogenboom joins me to explore the hidden power dynamics that shape how we live, lead and relate. Science behind leadership and empathy, challenge outdated gender norms and look at how our brains are wired to mirror and reinforce systems of inequality. Melissa's new book Breadwinners offers a bold, research-backed view on what needs to change at work, at home and in ourselves. So let's hear what Melissa has to say. Melissa Hocheboom welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, Gerry.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you've just published a new book. It hasn't just quite come out yet at the time of recording, but it'll be out very soon and we're going to get to that shortly. But first to kick things off so my listeners can get to know you better how did you come to work as a science writer at the BBC, and what people, places or events stand out on your journey, and were there any epiphany moments that led you to write this book?
Speaker 2:So I had a quite unconventional start. I was the autocue person in the newsroom. So when you watch the news and the presenter is, um, reading the script, they're actually reading from an autocue. So a black box with white text that goes up and down, um, but because the news changes all the time, it's not automated there's someone sitting in a little corner of a dark room with a manual knob scrolling it.
Speaker 2:And I was 23, just out of university, a little bit naive perhaps. You know. I was of the generation where I was told I could do anything. I put my mind to it and I would see these scripts and, you know, the intros of the story would be like 15 seconds long and I was like I can do that, I could write about. You know, the intros of the story would be like 15 seconds long and I was like I can do that. I could write about, you know, the political story of the day or the conflict of the day.
Speaker 2:I'd always wanted to be a writer, ever since I was like 16. And I hadn't considered going into journalism. But I thought, oh, I'm here, I can definitely write these kind of scripts. Let me talk to the people who do this and see if there's any opportunities the people who do this and see if there's any opportunities. And so I started off just doing a trial shift, booking guests to come onto the news, and if you book the guest you also have to write the scripts and do every aspect of that story as the story moves on. So you'd be working on stories that often change throughout the day and it turns out it was really difficult. But I'm glad I had that naive, slight arrogance, because that kind of confidence actually made me get that foot in the door in the first place and then it made me learn very quickly to fill the gaps until I was up to speed. And then I was, you know, just as good as the other people in the room, but had I interviewed for the position, I don't think I would have got it. So a bit of luck, but definitely speaking to the right people and kind of giving myself the power and empowering myself, which is interesting to look back now. I've been writing about it a lot, um, and I think having that kind of belief in myself definitely empowered me to seek those opportunities, um, and then, yeah that that that was the first year or two, in that you kind of go from job to job at the BBC because you're on short contracts and eventually I was writing articles.
Speaker 2:I got a trainee science reporter position which meant I was covering science stories of the day. So I'd be interviewing leading scientists, every day, publishing a different story, and that led me to report for radio, go on television to talk about the stories and write articles. So very quickly you get a range of insights into all these different fields, from astrophysics to psychology to neuroscience. But I always came back to health and psychology and well-being because that's what I'd studied at university and I'm just fascinated about how humans tick. What makes the mind work? Why do we behave the way we do? So that kind of common thread has always been um part of my journalism. So the stories I pitch often go back to that.
Speaker 2:But I also think my kind of interest and understanding of people have always mentioned ensured that when I do do the writing I kind of get behind the story and as I always had an ambition to write a book, I was on maternity leave with my second and I thought this is quite something. Why is nobody writing about how difficult this is and why a mother's sense of self is so challenged. There must be some science behind it. So, to start off the writing journey was really me trying to figure out why your sense of self changes from a biological perspective and neuroscientific perspective. And the irony of that was I didn't want motherhood to define me, and it's not because I didn't love motherhood, it's because outside expectations influence who you are seen as and who you become, especially work pressures and the fact that you can't, you know, work as late as other people. And then you're seen as less ambitious.
Speaker 2:And actually I became more ambitious to kind of try and prove that I wasn't affected, which, looking back, wasn't particularly healthy, but it's a function of the society we live in. And after I wrote that book I kind of got addicted and I carried on, you know, leading a team at the BBC, publishing films, making documentaries, but I had a first taste of leadership and management, and so when it came to the topic of the next book, I was able to combine kind of power imbalances, how to avoid being overpowered, with, you know, a look at equality and how society's changing. So it was a perfect blend of all these topics that I'd kind of subtly consumed throughout my career and, you know, able to bring a new research insights into that. So it wasn't a linear journey. There was just there was so many influences along the way that led to um where I am today.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, um, I guess that's. We're at the point now where we can start talking about the new book which you call just for our listeners.
Speaker 2:The book's called Bread Winners and Other Power Dynamics influence your life. So breadwinners is the title and then the subtitle is and other power imbalances that influence your life, which is quite clever because breadwinner, being the breadwinner, is the ultimate power play often because, whether you know it or not, if you are the main breadwinner because of your financial status, it tends to mean that you have more positional power in society. Positional power is your socioeconomic status in your society, how society views you, and what's interesting is that kind of positional power outside the home often then influences power inside the home. So it's not as if the two are separate spheres, because our society is quite success orientated and interested in our achievements. Um, we really kind of look to who the successful person is in terms of how much, who's making the money or how much money they make. So, um, it was just an interesting way into kind of these interesting dynamics.
Speaker 1:Now, who's this book for and why did you feel now was the right time to write this book?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll start with why it's the right time. So in my book I start with the fact that power balance in society is shifting because more women are becoming primary breadwinners and this means we're kind of witnessing traditional power dynamics changing in real time because as these female breadwinners increase it is becoming the driving force for potentially changing household inequality. And I'd say the book is for any man or woman who has felt either disempowered or has felt that they have more power and have realized that it's affecting their relationship. So for a woman, it's kind of very obviously geared towards anyone who's realized that they are doing more at home because of their partner's financial status, which become which, by the way, is one of the biggest drivers for relationship dissatisfaction and divorce. Because even if you're, even if there's someone who's a teacher and someone in the financial services, they might be working the same hours during the day. But often you see the lower earning women traditionally still doing more at home in the hours where they both have free time, because kind of women have been conditioned to do more. But then this also happens when women start to earn more money than their male partners, they still do more at home and that causes relationship dissatisfaction too, because men start to feel disempowered because of the expectation of men to be primary breadwinners. So, because of these expectations, their masculinity is threatened, and so I really want this to be a book that men can read to understand why we need to disencouple this breadwinner expectation with masculinity, because it harms men just as much as women and, if nothing else, it harms the next generation.
Speaker 2:Like, are we growing if we're parents, or even if we're uncles and aunts?
Speaker 2:Are we telling our sons that they have to be the main earners and our daughters that they have to, you know, to spend more time during childcare?
Speaker 2:Because that's not a sustainable dynamic in a society where we do expect a dual earner income because of, you know, most people can't afford just to live on one income. But also, the more that women start earning in society, the more financial power they have. The more that women start earning in society, the more financial power they have, the more empowered they feel and the more kind of ambitious they're able to become, which their daughters and sons will grow up seeing. So it's really kind of a generational shift that we're seeing, but the expectations in the home haven't, which is why this kind of power dynamic can be so challenging for couples to navigate, and then because it's challenging at home. This translates into you know how you can achieve at work, because if you're spending a lot of your time at home thinking about laundry and childcare, you have less time to focus on CV. So it kind of really harms the whole family if power balance isn't shared more equally.
Speaker 1:On Leading People. The goal is to bring you cutting edge thought leadership from many of the leading thinkers and practitioners in leadership today. Each guest shares their insights, wisdom and practical advice so we can all get better at bringing out the best in ourselves and others. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share a link with friends, family and colleagues, and stay informed by joining our Leading People LinkedIn community of HR leaders and talent professionals. Okay, so, for the book, you interviewed lots of people heterosexual couples, you interviewed couples in same-sex relationships, you did a lot of research and that and you now you talk about this, this dynamic that has persisted and I guess it has been evolving. If you go back to maybe the 1950s, etc. And look at where women's place today has probably evolved quite a bit since then, and yet, at the same time, I'm hearing that, um, these, this breadwinner dynamic is still present. And what? What makes it so hard to break the? This male, female, the breadwinner, the woman having to do more at home? What makes it it so challenging to break this dynamic?
Speaker 2:There's a term sociologists use called structural lag, and this simply means that when, even though society's attitudes are changing, actual physical change lags behind attitudes and it comes down to kind of centuries of expectations of the man being the breadwinner and it's really tied into your sense of what masculinity means. It's being kind of in charge of your family, having to have the financial responsibility, and men are judged for it. So I think, even though we see a reality where women are earning more and they're becoming more empowered, often as soon as they have children their earnings go down because they're the ones that take maternity leave or parental leave, more so than men, and so they become kind of the project managers of the household. So even where expectations are changing, the infrastructure by society that puts women at home more than men means that women end up doing more. Men's earnings could go up. So it kind of cements the cycle. And then there's the fact that men are judged for it if they're staying at home or if they're taking flexibility. There's one researcher I interviewed who calls it the fatherhood forfeit. So when men ask for flexibility, they're judged for it. The irony is, women are as well, but because they're expected to and they're expecting their careers to be kind of reduced or their ambitions to be reduced somewhat. They just kind of take it on, whereas men um literally feel emasculated, um, because of these expectations. And then of course I talk about lots of people believing in equality and wanting change. But then we see a political infrastructure in the united states where government officials are literally telling the society that they want more women to stay at home, that they want there to be like a main household income just by one person, and so this is really damaging rhetoric, where you kind of have this bombardment of these centuries of expectations, the desire for change, but a political infrastructure that doesn't allow this change to happen.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can see, in the uk at least, paternity leave is two weeks at statutory, statutory pay, so not even full pay.
Speaker 2:Companies don't have to do it. Some companies willingly increase it, um, but often men don't take what they're given because if they're the higher earners it might impact the family um, or they worried that if they're out of the workplace you know they won't get a promotion, and so unless society changes that kind of level of paternity leave available, things on a daily basis won't change. And you do see places where it's improved. So in some of the Nordic countries, when they introduced generous paternity leave policies where it's paid, it's now become unacceptable for men not to take in Sweden at least for men not to take the leave allocated to them, because all the dads do it. And then you see interesting patterns in the workplace. So when dads take more paternity leave you can literally see women's earnings go up I think it was like 7% or something Whereas in the rest of society there is known to be a motherhood penalty of about 4% pay reduction per child she has. And so you can see that the workplace and societal expectations literally impact on earning potential throughout your life.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you about the Nordic countries. I have lots of friends up there and I visit Sweden from time to time and I'm curious about your statistic about the 4% increase in women's earnings. The question that comes to my mind is do men's earnings suffer in reverse to in Sweden? Is there any research to say that men are actually penalized, or is this just a notion that exists in our heads that a man's earning potential capacity can be affected by taking parenting?
Speaker 2:leave. I haven't seen this, any stats around that but probably because generally men's earnings go up and women's earnings don't. If you look at gender pay gap statistics, I think the last time I looked, all but one country had a gender pay gap. So there's a term called the fatherhood bonus. So when men become fathers they actually tend to see their earnings go up, but in terms of the figure. So I'm just looking at the data now. So for every month of leave a dad took in Sweden, earnings increased for women by about 7%, which shows that fathers taking time off can erode the motherhood penalties. The motherhood penalty is the 4% decrease in earnings that motherhoods typically have when they become, when they have children.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, so there are two kind of topics that come into my mind and I might keep one of them now for a little bit later. Let's get to how organizations because you're talking about the political environment in places like the United States at the moment, which is probably not going to help the situation in the short term. Anyway, over the next couple of years, what can organizations start to do, or what are they doing to address this imbalance?
Speaker 2:Well, I think in terms of the workplace, we need to understand that earnings are closely tied to how powerful you feel, and power literally changes the brain. So those in power have a different profile in the brain's mirroring system. The brain's mirroring system is the part of you. If you see someone sitting like this I'm for listeners I'm sitting with my um head and my hands. You tend to mimic them and the same neurons fire. But when you're in power you have less of this Um and this kind of suggests you're, you're, you're above the other person. You don't need to kind of feel attuned to them as much, and this can be useful because if you're in a position of power, you don't have the time and energy to be concerned with everybody that you're overpowering, like if you need to make decisions. If you're in a position of leadership, you can negotiate with everyone because nothing will ever get done. But this means social hierarchies can be extremely difficult to navigate, especially because feeling superior can be addictive. So I found this really interesting research that literally when you're in a position of power, you release more chemical messengers that affect your mood, including serotonin, and so once you get that kind of addictive notion of you're in power, you kind of continue to seek the reward and at the same time, when you're in a position of power, your empathy is reduced. So you start feeling less empathy with other people.
Speaker 2:And this has been found in kind of a range of experiments and scientists have even done.
Speaker 2:There's one scientist called decker keltner who did a lots of interesting studies like this and he found that um bosses are most likely to, or the person of powers is most likely to, eat the last cookie.
Speaker 2:If there is a room of four people and five cookies and there's one left, the person in position of power is most likely to eat the last one because they don't worry or care as much about what other people are thinking. You can see this have has benefits. But the flip side is, if you are disempowered and feel powerless, you show more stress, lower cognitive function, you're less likely to think of the bigger picture, and when you're stressed, of course it's difficult to regulate other emotions and if you're chronically stressed you find it harder to seek out help. But you can kind of see that this happens in the workplace, right, but that kind of addictive feeling of power and lack of empathy can translate into the home sphere as well. And so if you have higher status and higher social support, you don't feel the effect of um you know any stressors as much as if you have lower, lower status and lower social support so that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:What you just said, melissa, and what comes into my head when you talk about the mirror neurons and the, the power and how it's the empathy thing is. There's so much talked about out there on emotional intelligence in leaders, and I've done some neuroscience studies myself and you know some of the kind of models and things that are promoted out there don't stand up very well when it comes to the underlying neuroscience behind how we actually operate, how our brains function and how we operate. So, given that people who become more powerful may be experiencing a reduction in empathy and they make decisions about these kinds of things, what can be done or what are organizations doing today to address that?
Speaker 2:So there's I'll take you back a few steps. There's an interesting phenomenon called the power paradox, which kind of explains what we need to do in real time. So in order to become powerful, you need to use your empathy skills to get there. So we use kindness, compassion, empathy, but once we're in a position of power, these very traits start to diminish and to exacerbate that. Individuals with dominant and self-serving and even narcissistic personality traits are actually more likely to seek positions of power. And once they're in a position of power, these traits are amplified, because power kind of disinhibits your natural tendency to feel empathy. And if, if a group lacks a leader this is another experiment I've found quite amusing so if a group lacks a leader, it's the narcissist in the group who's more likely to step in and take charge, and so you can see all kinds of real world examples of that. But there are ways to get to your question. There's ways that we can overcome this power paradox. So I interviewed some really interesting scientists. There's one psychologist who studies power called Deborah Greenfeld, and she says we need to see power as a sense of responsibility over others. So if you're a leader and it's like an us-them environment, you kind of are accentuating your power over it. But if you see yourself as a collective group and we, you're more likely to feel responsible. Even face-to-face interactions make you feel more responsible than others and also understanding kind of the stressors that someone has.
Speaker 2:And there's another term that I love, which was originated by a scientist called Adam Galinsky, and he calls it the leadership amplification effect. So when you're and that sounds very wordy, but when you're in a position of power and you say something, those more junior to you take every word of what you're saying, so it kind of amplifies it. And he uses the example where, if your boss sends you an email saying can we have a quick catch-up, that catch-up is amplified in your mind and it could be anything. You could be like oh my goodness, I'm getting fired. Or oh my god, especially if you feel disempowered, you might think, oh, am I being called upon for, um, some poor reward? And if the, if the call is in a few days' time, you kind of are ruminating about what that call might be.
Speaker 2:So a very simple tweak a leader can do is oh, can we have a quick catch-up to talk about the figures from last week? Then that kind of takes any stress away. And the same goes for a deadline. If you give someone a deadline and you're in a position of power, they won't question it. But a way to kind of overcome that, if you're the person who's less powerful, is to explain exactly what you have on. Yes, I can absolutely hit that deadline. First, I um, I'll put I'll push this one back and I won't do that.
Speaker 2:But the problem is because of leader amplification effect, you're less likely to speak up because you're worried about what they think. But kind of that two-way dialogue, seeing power as a responsibility and people being part of a team, can kind of make that go away a little bit. And then, interestingly, the best leadership traits, when you do look at what people value, are actually enthusiasm, kindness, focus, calmness and openness. So even though a lot of leaders have a lot of negative traits, that's often because of that study I mentioned, where those who are dominant and slightly narcissistic are even more likely to put themselves in a position of power. But when you look at good leaders, they do tend to have some of these more positive traits. So it's kind of a good and bad picture here. But if you have an organization where you prioritize kindness and you realize that kindness elevates, you'll kind of have a much less toxic organization.
Speaker 1:And I'm really pleased you mentioned Adam because he was a guest on the podcast a few episodes back, so anybody who wants to hear more about leadership amplification can tune into that episode that was released a little while ago, so you can actually hear Adam talk about it. And I'm really curious because you talk about how this paradox, this power paradox, can be somewhat modified through a more collective approach to things. What's happening in the generations? You know, a lot of younger people today are well. A lot is written about their more collaborative nature and I'm wondering if that is true in the research you've done and whether or not it's having any impact on this power paradox you mean the younger generation is kind of.
Speaker 2:They're more likely to shun that traditional power structure.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I'm just going by the types of things I read and and this, this idea that there's a more social aspect to the way younger people, let's say in their 20s and early 30s, like to work today. Is that true? In your research, did you find that there's any generational impact? Do generations have any impact on this power paradox phenomenon or is it just automatically the way we we're programmed? At a certain point we're given some extra responsibilities and we just it just clicks in like it's a switch that just clicks on and we all go to that default, which is, you know, to, to reduce the empathy, etc. You're listening to leading people, people with me, gerry Murray. My guest this week is Melissa Hogenboom, bbc science journalist and author of Breadwinners, coming up. We explore how early socialisation shapes who feels entitled to lead, how leaders can model equality in action and why being a good role model at home might just make you a better leader at work.
Speaker 2:I think. So what I have uncovered is that, you for sure, the younger generation is less keen on overwork and presenteeism and demands, you know, the flexibility to work from home more. But I think that is also shifting because we're seeing more and more businesses call their workers back in, we're seeing more presenteeism, and so I think, until those who are the power holders at the top make company-wide policies that have this more kind of horizontal approach instead of hierarchical. So if you literally think about a horizontal line instead of a hierarchy where everything's very top down, I think it will be slow to change. But there is hope, because I looked at cross-cultural differences and in the Netherlands, for instance, it's quite a horizontal culture. It's still individualistic. Individualistic literally means you're putting yourself first and there's a focus on success in many Western countries, but it's much more horizontal. So a psychologist I interviewed said if you walk into a business room in the Netherlands you won't know who the boss is because everybody's able to speak up. And I think leaders can encourage a horizontal culture within their own organization. So you have culture-wide, like culturally and country level, you have these differences, but companies can also create this kind of culture and again it ties back into that sense of responsibility I mentioned.
Speaker 2:So responsible leaders tend to be more empathetic, ask for more honest feedback and actually listen to their employers. They ask, like, what they're doing, what they can do differently. And in my last appraisal, my manager and he's clearly been on some leadership trainer, but he, he's a brilliant manager, brilliant boss and his question to me was what? What am I doing well or not so well? What can I do differently? And actually that is a very small um, you know it takes very little time to ask that, but I don't think in my career I've ever been asked that, or not often. And so that kind of ability to create a two-way dialogue and it has to be safe, you can't just say what you want him to hear, which often happens because of the leadership amplification effect. But creating a safe dialogue where you're able to share this kind of dual feedback is going to create a much better manager-employee relationship.
Speaker 2:And when, as I mentioned about, if you you lack power, you become disempowered, if you, as a leader, know that and you realize that giving your staff a sense of autonomy and giving them, letting them give honest feedback, they're going to feel more empowered. And when you're more empowered, you're more creative, um, you're harder working, you're thinking bigger picture. So actually it doesn't just benefit you as an organization, it will benefit teams and your creativity, um. And you know, like, if, if, if you have a dominant person at the top and you realize that that's affecting everyone underneath you, you can shift that there is a way to create kinder organizations, um, and it will benefit your, your whole team, in terms of work-life balance as well as kind of just happiness at work your position.
Speaker 1:Power can stay intact by just adopting that. Your boss hasn't become less of a boss in in his, in the organizational structures, because he's asking you what he could do better or improve. But what it does is it sounds like it connects you to him, you feel you know, more supported, you feel like it's a very fair question to be asked and you obviously say he's a brilliant boss, so it's working for him, right in that respect and well.
Speaker 2:So, absolutely, it does work. And there's one study I have to mention, um, that I came across. That kind of shows how this can play out in real time, um, and so when you're lacking in a position of power, you're less likely to speak up, right? And there's this really fun experiment where they put participants in a room um, they primed some of them to feel position of power, so by getting them to write about a time when they felt powerful, and then they put a really noisy, cold fan right next to them and then they witnessed what happened. So those who felt that they had more power and had been primed to feel more powerful were more likely to move the fan, even though that wasn't an instruction, whereas those who had felt disempowered weren't likely to move the fan.
Speaker 2:And this came out of a real-life example where Deborah Grunfeld was sitting next to someone who seemed like a very top-level senior executive. They just seemed like a very competent business person. I don't know how she came across that, but she was sitting in a very under a very cold airplane fan and she felt disempowered by his status, and it took her half an hour to ask to if he could turn the fan down because it was literally on her, and then she's like, oh, why did I feel like that, why did I feel that way? Can actually shifting our sense of how much power we have make us speak up? And it can, um, and then, so that it can have a real positive change, um, and on the flip side, there's another experiment I really want to highlight.
Speaker 2:Um, there was an experiment where participants weren't told what the experiment was about, but they were again, um, asked to, you know, talk about their financial status and finance being a proxy for power. And those who had the highest kind of power were more likely to take two sweets on the way out, when they didn't realize they were being watched, than the people who are disempowered, showing that those in power are more likely to cheat and take what's not theirs. And you can see how that can have like a positive and a negative thing. And that that ties into this fact that when you are in a position of power, it because of this disinhibiting effect, it can make you more likely to cheat and steal, and there's this effect called hubris syndrome, so you feel like you're above others, but usually and it takes a lot of time those power holders that use power for ill good, do kind of have a downfall eventually, because it's only so long you can kind of hold on to that power before you know those underneath. You kind of don't put up with it anymore.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the horizontal aspect, and I have worked with Dutch companies and I can say the ones I've been involved with do have a lot of emphasis on consensus and sometimes they complain that it takes them too long to get to the decision point. And yet they, when they do get to the decision, they all feel reasonably good about it because they've all felt that their voice has been heard in the process. So, for those who just experienced the Dutch as direct, there's also this consensus aspect to Dutch society, which is a very impressive way they go about this. And you're part Dutch, right, so you grew up in the UK but you're part Dutch. Can you give us an example of a vertical society and vertical society that you know has, and how that impacts this, this power imbalance?
Speaker 2:yeah, there's um a really fun study where they compared um. The so vertical societies are often um. So japan's quite a vertical society. China's known as a vertical society and also more collectivist, right. So there is a study that where they got American students and Chinese students to do a test, and the American students were more likely to want to do well if they knew there was a reward at the end, but the Chinese students didn't have that same incentive.
Speaker 2:For them it was more about the group, and this again is how it shows you how group norms can really influence you. So if you see yourself as part of a group, then you're less likely to focus on the individual, the individual pursuit of success. So there's no right or wrong way to think about it. But in vertical societies you can have someone who's a powerful position at the top and everyone else makes sure that they do what that person says, whereas horizontal culture, like you said, it's more consensus and everybody has a say. So it's no surprise that in horizontal cultures there's a greater emphasis on equality and there tends to be less financial inequality in the general population, whereas in vertical countries there's often much more financial inequality back to the, the breadwinner concept and and how did?
Speaker 1:how do these different cultures? What sort of impact are they having? The vertical versus horizontal cultures on the? You know the evolution of, you know the breadwinner concept and the role of the woman, both at work and at home this is quite challenging and that kind of ties back to one of your first questions about who the book's for.
Speaker 2:So most have this conversations in countries where women aren't like there aren't many women in the workplace, um, so I I think we're, we're already seeing a challenge in like the uk and the us, where there are more female breadwinners. So power imbalance, power balances are shifting, but so some countries, countries where they are even more patriarchal in terms of the fact that some women don't work at all, I think there's not going to be a red-winner shift when women aren't even expected to work. So it's challenging and it means that this book definitely is for those where it's possible, because it must be very frustrating to read this book if you're in a culture or country where you're expected to stop work or not work at all to look after the children.
Speaker 1:Okay, and now I want to go back to the question I mentioned that I was going to ask you later in the conversation, and Some of what you spoke about early on is this notion that a lot of the stereotypes are ingrained in our society and men are expected to do this, etc. Women, etc. As a mother yourself, what steps are you taking to educate your children in this world of trying to achieve this balance between the female and male roles?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's definitely tricky because I definitely do most of the cognitive and mental labor at home. So this is the planning, the anticipating, the needs, the book, which is like not just the booking, the child care options, but the researching and researching the camps. But the crucial aspect in my relationship is we talk about it. So we talk about the division, we recognize each person's contribution and in my case, my job has always been slightly more flexible, which is an unfortunate common um. It feels it's a common um. It's not just a stereotype, because it's true in so many cases women tend to have more flexible jobs because they mold flexibility into their career or as men's jobs are seen more rigid. But in my case, I do tend to always finish earlier. So I've been home to do the, the cooking more. But in terms of hours spent on child, my partner is the one that plans the weekend activities. He was doing piano practice with my daughter before school today. So we really try and make sure that, in terms of what they see us doing, we do very similar, equitable things.
Speaker 2:I talk about my work a lot. You know, yesterday I was on television, on BBC News, talking about a health story, about why gardening improved your mental health. But I make sure to tell the kids and my daughter asked me the other day she's like wow, so everybody's going to see you. So they have a real understanding that my role is just as important as their father's role, that they're both seeing us working. We make sure that they see him cooking, that we both do the laundry.
Speaker 2:So it sounds small, but these gender expectations are so ingrained, especially when you consider that studies show that girls tend to do more chores than boys, starting from a very young age. Fathers talk more about emotions to their daughters than to their sons. Fathers do more rough and tumble, play with their sons and then you kind of see how little girls and boys grow up into these very rigid gender roles. So it has to start small, has to start with the small things in order for the next generation to understand that they can make a change. And also just talking about like that, my daughter can be whatever she wants.
Speaker 2:She can be a doctor, she can be a pilot, she can be a nurse and not have a judgment to that and similar with my son like he can. You know, they don't have to follow typical gender roles and I think it's definitely easier somewhere quite in our kind of quite liberal London bubble because you see all sorts of family setups kind of quite liberal London bubble because you see all sorts of family setups. My kids know that someone can have two dads, someone can have two moms, and so I think there is hope for the next generation, especially considering I interviewed quite a lot of stay-at-home dads and they talked about the struggles they had, especially losing a sense of purpose or meaning, not because they didn't feel less purpose in their role with their children, but because they were judged for it. But they knew this was more important or they were putting their children first. And the more dads we can see the playground of pickup, the more the next generation is going to expect this.
Speaker 1:And you have a boy and a girl, which gives you the really opportunity to even get them to see each other in different ways. Maybe inspired by Adam Galinsky's leadership amplification effect. Maybe we should invent a term, the parent amplification effect, because it seems that that's what you're attempting to do here is to amplify by role modeling and not just talking about it. But you and your partner are living it out as best you can in your circumstances. So one last question for you Can this book make me happier?
Speaker 2:I think it depends on where you're coming from. If you're the female breadwinner and you are doing earning most of the money and doing everything at home, I think it's going to enrage you somewhat, but I think it will give you the tools to make changes. So I think when you're armed with the knowledge of how these power imbalances affect you outside the home and inside the home, and then you learn that actually there are tools I can use that aren't going to point fingers, you can make change. Stress and losing power reduces our self-esteem. We can learn that we can feel empowered by kind of having simple conversations, by feeling more responsible, by simple things just like sharing the mental load, doing tasks end to end. But another going back to neuroscience because I love writing and researching about neuroscience and I know you spoke to David Robson, who often talks about the brain's predictive machine we can actually use our brain's prediction engine to trick ourselves into feeling less stressed and feeling more empowered. So a lot of the scientists I spoke to use this technique called priming, so psychological priming either. They do it by you write down a time when you felt powerful. You write down a time when you felt powerful. You write down a time when you had a position of power or you, um, are kind of talking about um or given, you're literally given a sense of you. You are in this position, think about yourself. So you can use kind of the understanding of the past to prime yourself, to feel more powerful. So it's a bit like imposter syndrome, right, like nobody knows. You feel that, so you can actually almost fake it till you make it Um. And especially empowering is knowing that having more power and can improve your health and wellbeing gives us more access to resources. Um helps us influence our spouses, helps us kind of not fall victim to goal contagion this is another phenomenon I love. So if you're in the position of less power in a relationship, you're more likely to absorb the goals of your higher earning partner. So, whether it's their personal goals or hobbies or their job goals, because you're less power, you have less power in the relationship.
Speaker 2:And a really obvious example is like wives who take up golf because otherwise they'll have no time to spend with their partners or they also want, you know, five hours out of their day and that's their hobby. Um, and ironically, my husband's taken up golf and he's like you can join me if you want. I'm like no, I'm not going to fall victim to golf contagion. And he's like what are you on about? Cause he loves it and he does generally want you know me to like it too.
Speaker 2:And I'm like I just don't and I'm not going to do it just because you do it. But then he recognizes that and says well, you know, you can have your own two, three hour hobby if you want to, which is not quite practical, but it's the recognition that, say, I did have a hobby that would take three hours, he would support it. And, lastly, the I think the take-home message is the more that we understand these power dynamics and imbalances, um, and the more that we can overcome them, we will have a happier relationship and children who grow up not expecting kind of some of the more toxic dynamics that some people find themselves in okay, so, coming to the end, how can people get in touch with you, melissa?
Speaker 1:What platforms or what ways can people reach out to you? And if you ask about the book, I guess it's going to be available in all good bookshops and online platforms et cetera. So how can people connect with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. Um, it's just Melissa Hogan. Boom, uh, I'm on Instagram and threads as well. Um, when my books released. If anyone would like a signed copy, I'd be happy to have them order it to my home and I can send them to it. Uh, so, and I'd love having dialogues and conversations about this. So part of what was most fun about the book is I interviewed so many, um, interesting individuals and scientists from learning about the scientific research to understanding what happens in individual relationships and how people deal with money and stress, um, and so kind of weaving the two together, cause I found lots of common threads and people did love to talk to me about it.
Speaker 2:So I'm always looking for more examples, either for my newsletter to feature people or for articles I'm writing about the topic. So please get in touch and share with me how you have overcome any power imbalances in your life, or if there's any that you want to overcome and you're just not quite sure how. I really want to kind of create a dialogue and I love, jerry, I love your idea about the parents amplification effect. If there's anyone who has tips on how they've noticed that in their life like I think you can ask your kids quite simple questions like who does the cooking or who does the washing up, and it's quite revealing what they say, because kids do notice everything. And if you can change that by amplifying something you're doing, then I think we're kind of making small gains. So please get in touch with your examples. I'd love to hear it and open a dialogue.
Speaker 1:My small contribution to this world and, by the way, for the listeners. You can regularly catch up on your work at the BBC, isn't that right? Yes, you do a lot of shorts on the app and you're interviewed quite regularly on topics that you've got expertise on, isn't that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my second hat is as a health correspondent at the BBC. So I write a weekly newsletter called Health Fix Just Google BBC Health Fix and you'll find it. And it's a free weekly newsletter Health Fix just Google BBC Health Fix and you'll find it. And it's a free weekly newsletter. And I do regular little short films about how to improve your health and wellbeing. So I've got films about how to avoid ultra processed food, whether matcha is really good for you or not, and why you can benefit from spending time in nature, and so a lot of these insights that I learn about at work I find that I kind of come back to when I come to write my books, as well, and I'll put some links in the show notes.
Speaker 1:so, as ever, melissa, thanks for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with me and my listeners here today.
Speaker 2:Thank you, gerry.
Speaker 1:Coming up on Leading People.
Speaker 3:Acting is. It's entirely about taking a microscope to human behavior and taking a microscope to your own behavior and creating massive awareness about the impact you're having on people. And I'll come back to that as we talk through leadership, Gerry, because it's so much that I did there that's so important to what I do now.
Speaker 1:My next guest is Kate Walker-Miles, client director and a coach at RADA Business. In our conversation, we explore how posture, breath and voice, among other things, shape the impact you have as a leader. It's a fascinating conversation about reclaiming presence and showing up in rooms with impact where you might otherwise hold back. You won't want to miss it and remember, before our next full episode, there's another One Simple Thing episode waiting for you A quick and actionable tip to help you lead and live better. Keep an eye out for it wherever you listen to this podcast Until next time.
