Steve Coughran: [00:00:00] First question is what were you like growing up? And do you recall any pivotable moments in your upbringing that define your life's course? 

Mihir Desai: [00:00:08] Sure. So, that's a great question. You know, so I was born in India and raised in Hong Kong, but we came to the U S when I was eight. So I think that really defined my childhood and really defined who I am, which is somebody who has to kind of figure out a way to learn a new landscape and adopt that landscape and try to find a new way to thrive. 

Now, of course, I had all the advantages of a very loving home and a receptive community, but I think that kind of immigrant experience really defined who I am and the way I think about the world, I was always pretty inward and pretty introverted and not somebody who was out there a lot.

I was quiet and kind of insular in some ways. And then. What would almost always inevitably happen is I would kind of grow. So the beginning of high school was terrible, but at the end of high school was great. The beginning to call it, it was terrible. But then to college was great. At the beginning of graduate school was terrible at the end of graduate school was great.

So I am just a chronic slow starter. And I think I like to stack the deck against me, you know, like I love the idea of coming out of a hole and like, you know, getting victory from the jaws of defeat. And I think that narrative just repeated itself, like all the time in my life. You know, very kind of average kid in many, many ways, and really internally focused a little bit, not so externally focused. And then, you know, somebody who puts obstacles in front of themselves in a way, and then likes to conquer them. That's kind of been the narrative that I've kind of told myself all through my life. 

Steve Coughran: [00:01:36] So when you're quiet like that, did you get a lot of slack from other people as far as you know, why are you the quiet guy or...?

Mihir Desai: [00:01:42] Well, so it's, you know, again, I think I always would start on the periphery, right? So at the beginning of every experience, I've been on the periphery because I'm quiet. And then I am just this late starter. And I never fortunately got serious flack for it other than for my, maybe my older brother, but in a way it made it easier because I think people were curious about me as being this kind of peripheral figure. I was never asked to, to anybody and then I would kind of slowly find my way to flourish. And I think that was kind of something that I like to do. And I still like to do, I don't like to be the first person to talk in a room.

I'd much rather talk to other people about their lives and talk about my own life. I just am naturally somebody like that. So I don't think I'm somebody who is aloof, but I certainly don't put myself forward in many ways until time passes, and then I find myself projecting myself a little bit more into the mainstream. That's been kind of the narrative always. 

Steve Coughran: [00:02:32] Now moving around from India to Hong Kong, to the United States do you see that as a advantage or disadvantage? I mean that must've been difficult moving around a lot when you're young, especially internationally. 

Mihir Desai: [00:02:46] Yeah. I think it's a huge advantage. In fact, I worry with my own children that they haven't had an experience like that.  And again, of course I had all the advantages of a loving home and wonderful parents. You know, if you don't have that moving around as much more complicated proposition, I think, but in the context in which I was in, it was fantastic for two reasons. You know, one, you know, my father felt strongly about coming to this country and his desire to move made this country, my home and I'm forever grateful for that. That's perhaps the most important effect of that instead of journeys, which is I got to grow up in this country and avail myself of educational opportunities and other opportunities that are just spectacular. 

And then second, it did lead to this sense of adaptability and also a little bit of a global mindset, which is, I think about the world naturally. I don't necessarily think about countries. I kind of have an outlook, especially a place like Hong Kong breeds, but at least the way it was back then breeds the cosmopolitanism that I think is really fantastic. 

And then the third thing I guess I would say is that, you know, I really believe that in the United States and India are two of the greatest countries out there and to be attached to both of them in a meaningful way is like, the greatest thing in the world to have two places that I feel at home.

Obviously I don't feel at home in India as I do in the United States, having lived here and now resided here, but I still think it's wonderful to have other places you can call home when I'm in Hong Kong and my heart beats a little faster. And when I'm in Bombay, my heart beats even faster. That's a great feeling to have multiple homes in the world.

Steve Coughran: [00:04:12] I think that diversity is so valuable. You know, part of my MBA program, I was able to travel to multiple countries and spend about two weeks in each of them. So we were in India for two weeks. We were in China for two weeks. We were in Germany and then Chile. So it was a great opportunity to not just learn business and learn strategy, but also, you know, opened my eyes to the rest of the world and how these different cultures behaved and to understand that there's more than one way to do things in the world and that was so valuable for me in my leadership. 

Mihir Desai: [00:04:42] Well, I think that last phrase you used is so important, which is kind of this intellectual ability to see that there's more than one way, right. And to just kind of free yourself from dogma. And like there's one way to do things, right. And that's not just something about countries or cultures, that's about problem solving and that's about everything.

And just to have that at a young age, as I said, I really wish my children had it. We've provided them with like no moving experiences. Now we travel, which is great. But it is different when you have to kind of show up in a fourth grade classroom and ingredient yourself. Oh, different. You know, I did the same thing in my summer, actually in high school, I went to Japan and it was just such a good experience to learn how to ingratiate yourself with a population with very limited language skills. It just teaches you to a resilience and it teaches you, I think, sociability in an interesting way. 

Steve Coughran: [00:05:32] Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So you go on and you earn your degree, your bachelor's degree in history and economics from Brown University. And so my question is how did this time period shape your life and what were some of the key learnings that emerge from studying these two topics?

Mihir Desai: [00:05:47] Yeah. So history was really important to my intellectual development and my personal development. And I think it goes a little bit to the conversation we just had, which is first history is all about understanding that the world is complex and any singular causal explanation of any historical fact is likely to be wrong.

It's a multi causal and it's messy and you have to really puzzle through those things. So it kind of disillusions you have any simplistic ideas about the way the world works, right. That, you know, you just do this and something comes out. No, it it's much more that. And I think history is just wonderful for teaching that.

The second thing that it gave me was, and I'm just a huge believer in this feed, which is, I'm a huge believer in writing. And the power of writing. So when you're a history major, you, right? Cause like you have to write a lot because that's what you do is it's your major. 

And I really thought that shaped me in an important way, because writing is not just about writing. It's about the way you argue it's about the way you think. And it's about the way you kind of, so market an idea it's about so many things, important things. So it really emphasized writing to me. And I think as a consequence, it had all these spill over effects, which is when you're forced to write that much about messy topics, you get better at analyzing messy issues.

You get better at presenting your views. You get better at convincing other people. So I think substantively history was important because it taught me to think about the world in a complicated way. But maybe even more important was it made me write and write a lot. And that has just, I think, persisted to today, I worry a lot that we don't emphasize writing enough in our curriculum because it is so important to the way we think and convince others.

And that had a lasting influence on me. Brown more generally was just a great place because they have what's called an open curriculum and you get to really choose whatever you want. And there are no really required things. And that also forced choice onto me. And you have to be thoughtful about your choices.

And I thought that was also a big kind of by-product at that time, like the entrepreneurial mindset of you have to make your own set of decisions here. No one's gonna make decisions for you. And I thought that was also really, really an important legacy of that time in my life. 

Steve Coughran: [00:08:03] So what kind of student were you, were you a good student? Were there certain topics that really interested you or did you like to go out and have a little bit of fun and be crazy too? 

Mihir Desai: [00:08:12] You know, so it was this classic pattern, which is the first year, it was a bit of a disaster. And I was really putting myself behind eight ball and I. Yeah, it was a little bit out of control and then things came together and I became more serious.

I didn't stop at enjoying myself. I had a great set of friends and we had a wonderful time, but it was, it's always been that pattern. The first year is a little bit of a disaster and that case was very social and super fun, but not great academically. And then over time by my senior year, things came together and I was loving it and I was loving the social aspect, then I was loving academic aspect and I figured out how to make it work. So yeah, by the time it was over, I think I was more in control, but that first year was, it was a bit of a blur. 

Steve Coughran: [00:08:51] Are there particular topics that you really excelled in? Like you said you did a lot of writing. Did that come naturally to you?

Mihir Desai: [00:08:57] It was you know, I really liked it and I actually remember very well taking a class and being involved in what's called a writing fellows program where we helped other people with their writing. And we actually studied the theory of writing. And I just thought my mind was just blown open by that. I just thought it was so interesting to think about rhetoric, how rhetoric works and the theory of it was just mind blowing.

So I loved that. I loved history. I liked economics, but, the passion for economics really came later when I was an undergraduate, it was really about exposition of ideas and studying ideas, all kinds of ideas later, I got more and more deeply interested in this specific ideas of economics, which is also really important at that time, but in college, I was much more like all over the place, just exploring. 

Steve Coughran: [00:09:45] That's great. And so then you go on and you earn your PhD in political economy from Harvard. Those small feet there. So congratulations then what was the motivation behind setting this topic and how did it transform you as a person?

Mihir Desai: [00:09:58] Well, you know, so I had worked for a couple years on wall street and then I'd done my MBA and I wasn't really sure what I was going to do, which is I was thinking about going back to banking or going back to consulting. And I realized two things. 

One is I realized I really wanted a way to think about the world. And I felt like I didn't have a way to think about the world, you know, like an intellectual framework for thinking about the world. And I was really fortunate. I sat in on the graduate seminar, which is kind of a crazy thing to do as an MBA student, but I sat in on a graduate seminar and economics, and it just changed my whole life because I immediately saw a way to think about the world.

And I wanted that so badly. Like I wanted an intellectual framework and that's when I really with economics and fell in love with research and economics and teaching economics and studying it, loved it all. And that happened very accidentally, but it satisfied the craving for me about ideas. About an intellectual framework and it satisfied a craving for me because it has wonderful theory. it's like an elegant set of ideas, but it also has like elegant empirical work, like, you know, those data. And then finally it has all this policy relevance because people, you know, it matters in the world. 

So a lot of academia doesn't satisfies me as much because they don't have that kind of combination of beautiful theory, beautiful data and beautiful relevance and economics has all that. And that to me was just super exciting. And, once I fell into it, I was really fortunate to have a couple of advisors who really took care of me. And that really shaped me in terms of giving me that way to think about the world, which I still have till today. 

Steve Coughran: [00:11:29] So did you pursue your PhD with the intent to teach or did you have other motivations at the time?

Mihir Desai: [00:11:35] Yeah, I had no idea what I was doing. I just had no idea. So I kind of the way I did it, it was like completely stumbled. So I've done my MBA and I was, didn't know what to do. And I was like, I went to India for a year, goofed around and traveled around the country. And then I got into the PhD program and I, I literally thought to myself, what's the worst that can happen.

I can spend a year and I'll take the basic, you know, graduate level economics classes. What's the worst that can happen. I can alert, learn a ton and then I'll just go back and do the other things I could go do. And then after that first year, I was like, I'll do another year. What's the worst that can happen.

I'll you know, basically learn a bunch of in-depth stuff about corporate finance and public economics. And then after that, I thought to myself, what's the worst thing gonna happen? I'll write, I'll try to write a dissertation. And if it doesn't work, I'll go back and do the other seven. 

So I don't come from a family of professors. I don't come from a place like that. So it was never something that I thought to myself I want to go do. Having said that I will, I say that during my MBA and during my PhD program, I saw what professors were doing. And I was like, that's cool. And that made me want to learn more. So it was never so purposeful Steve, where I was like, I'm going to do this so I can become a professor.

But it was clear that I had professors, especially in my business school time where I was like, what they are doing is cool. And then I learned first off, the teaching is only a small part of what you do. Your research is the bigger chunk. And then I learned about research and I was like, that's cool too and then things kind of came together. 

Steve Coughran: [00:12:53] That's interesting. It's interesting how our lives kind of weave in and out and sometimes things that we do aren't necessarily purposeful, but they, they take us down some interesting paths. Let's switch gears here. And I want to talk about your book here for a minute.

So when I was serving as a CFO I was working at this company, a lot of stress was just plaguing me. And one of the ways to work off the stress was to go out and run. And I'm that nerdy type who listens to audio books and, and biographies when I'm running my friends think I'm crazy. But so I'm looking for a book on audible and I, I just searched finance and up pops his book and it's called the wisdom of finance, discovering humanity in a world of risk and return. And to be completely honest, when I, when I first came across the title, I was like, huh, that's kind of interesting discovering this world of humanity. And how does that tie into finance?

So I started listening to it and what I loved about the book was just this idea of like humanizing finance and sharing these like economic concepts that you lay out so simply in through this moral lens. So I want to hear more about what inspired you to write the book and are you glad that you did it?

Mihir Desai: [00:14:08] Yeah. You know, it was, it was again, kind of accidental, like, you know, I kind of fell into it. So I was asked to do one of these kind of last lecture talks for graduating students. And I had no idea what I was going to do. And I was going to do this was back in 15, 2015, 16, and I thought I would give a talk about, I had a whole set of slides. It's called a slow motion LBO of America. And it was about five acts and you know, all this kind of jazz. And I was told me here, this was supposed to be like the last lecture thing you're supposed to be like, imparting wisdom, like the slow motion LBO of America. It's not going to work. And I was like, okay, fine. I understand. 

And so. I was supposed to, you know, the, literally the person who said to me, like, you know, it's supposed to be like about wisdom and about your life. And I'm like, okay, okay. And I came up with a title, which was the wisdom of finance. I didn't even know what it meant, but I knew that I was supposed to be talking about wisdom and I knew it had to do with finance because I knew something about finance and I was like, it wasn't a finance. That's what I'll talk about. 

I just submitted the title and then I had the great fortune of just having a great group of students who showed up. And as I was preparing for it, I just realized. And like, you I'm sure know Steve cause you know, financial well, which is these things in finance that we talk about like leverage or optionality. They're not just ideas in finance. Their ideas in life. Right? And we in finance talk to each other like this, you know, like I want some more optionality, you know, I'm not getting enough leverage, you know? Right? Like, you know, and we don't mean it financially. We mean like I need some more help.

I needed an outsource things I need to, like, I need more choices in my life, you know, whatever it is. And so I just really started to map that kind of, that language of finance to these much broader considerations. And I gave the talk and it was just spectacular in the sense that people really resonated with it. And they were so encouraging. And, you know, I got, I got several emails afterwards, including one from a guy who I'll never forget. He was like, you have to turn this into a book and, that's how it started. So totally serendipitous. I actually thought you could just kind of like write down your talk and publish it.

And then I realized it was a little more complicated than that. And I'm really glad I did. Because I didn't want to just write down, but talk because the talk works as a talk, but it may not work as a book. Right? Then I just began to journey and I'm a traditional academic economist at the time. I've never written books and yeah, writing academic papers and my whole style of writing. When you spend 15 years doing that, you become, you write a certain way, right? Like, you know, hypothesis tests, you know, results. And this is like a loosey goosey book. That's like all over the place with history and literature and different kinds of things.

The most important thing I did was I really did two things. I reached out to an author who I really respect and I kind of cold emailed him. And I said, would you have lunch with me to talk about this idea? And he said, yes. And we had like three five-hour lunches where he kind of reminded me about the power of stories.

So rather than talk about this and the way we usually talk about it, like to use stories. So every chapter in the book basically has a story that begins it from some crazy place. So like risk and insurance, it's like the Maltese Falcon or options and diversification it's Jane Austin. So using stories as opposed to the normal way we talk in finance, like, look, here's the numbers, here's the diagram. Here's the way it works. 

And he reminded me that the vast majority of people in the world don't think like that, like they needed a story. Like that's the way their mind works. That's what your mind works. And so that was such a revelation to me, cause I was like, okay, I'm going to do this all with stories.

And then the book kind of came out of that effort, not just the mapping, but infusing it with lots and lots of stories from history and literature and art as a way to do it. So it's been just an, a spectacular experience. 

It was a challenging thing to do. It was hard for me to do because it was different way of writing and different kinds of risks to take. And I've never, never been happier about a decision. You know, that I made as weird as it was to kind of do something that was kind of so different from a traditional academic work. 

Steve Coughran: [00:17:54] Yeah. And the way that you laid it out, like he said, I mean, it's three stories. There weren't a bunch of diagrams and charts.

It's not like he had a DCF model in the middle of the book, you know, so it's really unique. And I really liked that. And as listening to another interview that you had with somebody, and you're talking about. When the publishers came to you and said, you know, who's the audience here? Like, well, it's finance people and non-finance people, you got to choose.

It can't be everybody. Right. If you've gotten any feedback from non-finance people and how does it resonate with them? And for somebody who thinks numbers are scary, is it something that creates a little bit of interest with them?

Mihir Desai: [00:18:31] Yeah. So it's interesting. So I think I really resisted Steve, like this idea, like it's for this population and not for that population cause I really want us to write to everybody. And the interesting thing has been, I think the non-finance people. I think really gravitate towards it because it opens up this mysterious world to them. And as you know, many people in finance, you know, try to keep the world cloaked in mystery because it's the resource of power. And so for those people, I think it's just been great as a way into the world of finance. 

And then for people in finance, it kind of divides. So for some people who are, and you know, there are some people in finance like this, who they are just so kind of down the middle and they are so deep in finance, they don't really want to think broadly. Right. They, they love what they do. Classic kind of the creator mentality. I don't think they get the book because it's just too foreign to them to think about history and literature as a way to understand finance. 

But the people in finance who liked to connect dots and like to kind of see the world in a very multi kind of very way, they just really loved the book. And I think it's been gratifying because people who really know finance, like you can still find something in there that makes them just think about the world differently. 

So I think I, except for the person who really thinks finances, like kind of narrow and spreadsheet and. You know, that's what they do. I think people have different types of really liked it. Especially folks who like to connect dots, you know, people who are kind of parallel thinkers, lateral thinkers, they're the ones who find, I think the most helpful. 

Steve Coughran: [00:19:57] Yeah, I absolutely agree and you know, one of the parts that really stuck with me in the book is when you're talking about pay, finance is all about creating value. But if we translate that into our own personal lives, you know, we can ask the question to ourselves, am I creating value in the world? So I'm wondering, you know, as I'm hearing your background, you know, you you've lived in multiple countries. You come here, you go to Brown. You go to Harvard, you've worked at, you know, on wall street at McKinsey, and you've had all these great experiences and teaching at Harvard. 

Have you ever struggled at a point in your life where you asked yourself, am I fulfilling my life's purpose? Am I really creating value out there? Or do you feel like your life has always been very sequential and linear and you just keep adding back you to the world as you go along? 

Mihir Desai: [00:20:44] Yeah, so I, you know, Yeah there, you know, when with my children, we often talk about these, you know, that they're ducks, which is they look positive and calm on the surface, but beneath they're just moving their legs just like crazy, but you can't see anything.

Right. And I think there's been a lot of struggle in my life to feel like I am doing the thing I was supposed to be doing. And I think up until the last five years, Maybe the last three years, I've struggled with that a lot, but I think the book ended, the other book that came out and other things I'm doing now have made me feel for the first time like, I am closer to doing the thing that I should be doing. 

There's a long with like with everyone, I think where you just doubt yourself and you doubt whether you're doing the right thing. And I think a lot of my early forties was spent like, thinking about that problem unproductively but I feel today more confident about that than I've ever felt before. 

Now I'm still upset with myself or angry with myself about how much I realized what I can do. Like, I, I feel like I'm under performing in many, many ways, but I don't doubt myself as much as I used to with regards to have, I figured out how to add value in the world to the best of my ability.

Yeah, not that I'm saying it's great or anything like that. I'm just saying that to the degree that I have something, am I trying to get it out into the world in the best way and the books and my teaching and the writing and the research. I feel like, you know, I think it's, I'm trying as hard as I can. I wish I could do more, I wish the obstacles I placed in front of myself, you know, to go back to our previous conversation, were not always there, but that's just part of my modus operandi. 

Steve Coughran: [00:22:21] I think that's a common feeling, you know, when I'm talking to CFOs and other executives, you know, oftentimes, you know, especially the CFOs, they feel like in their position, you know, here they are, they're producing financial statements, they're, you know, they're doing the compliance work, but they don't necessarily feel like they're adding value, you know, or they're not fulfilling their full potential in this role. 

And that's why I'm so passionate about this idea of like strategic financial leadership. Because I think the finance leader, you know, is in a great position to add value to the organization because they touch so many parts of the business. They're into so many functions. 

So the question I have for you is when you hear the phrase, strategic financial leadership, what do you think of, and how do you see the future of finance changing? 

Mihir Desai: [00:23:06] So I think it's a great question. And I think first it's worthwhile just kind of going back in time a little bit for perspective, which is, I think, you know, 30, 40 years ago, CFOs were more in a kind of control function and a compliance function. And that was fine. That was the way the world works. 

But what we've noticed in the last 20 to 30 years is that the strategic importance of CFOs has just risen more and more. And it's, I think precisely for the reason you say, which is they have their hands in so many parts of the business, which is a way of saying first they know the data. So they, they actually understand the data that's incredibly valuable, more and more. 

Second, you know, for better or worse finances, more important in the world, which is just the way of saying investors are more important in the world and they kind of dominate the economy. 

So if you are on the front lines of interacting with those people, you are naturally more important than you would have been otherwise and that has led to them being more and more strategic. So part of that phrase of strategic financial leadership is just a recognition of the fact that finance, because it is so data-driven finance because it is so much on the interface between investors and the company and finally, because they develop and employ the language that we use to communicate with each other about how we're doing that is just becoming more and more important.

And so we see more CFOs migrating to CEO positions. We see more CEOs who have to be literate. in finance. And we need thought partners, not just the compliance function to be fulfilled. And I think that is really exciting and makes the job of CFO much more interesting. I tell my students, you know, they tend to think about the world of finance as well. "Oh well, I want to go become a banker or I want to go become a fund manager." And they don't realize that actually, if you want a long life in finance, that's super interesting. The CFO track is actually a great track to like get on and you can become a CFO and a CEO. Now it doesn't mean not have to pay off that going into some of those other fields might have in the short run, but in the long run. Way more interesting, way more fun, way more impactful and can be, you know, ultimately as remunerative as any other path. 

And I think that's what people don't appreciate. You know, people don't appreciate how much fun it can be. That job can, how much fun that job can be and how rewarding that path can be relative to a whole bunch of other calls.

Steve Coughran: [00:25:28] And, what do you think is the responsibility of the CEO or a president or a business unit leader? To educate themselves from a financial standpoint, you know, what if they just say, Hey, look, I'm not the numbers guy. You know, numbers just, aren't my thing. So it's just, you know, you go do the number thing, and then just come report back to me. Is it, is there a responsibility for, for CEOs and other leaders to know?

Mihir Desai: [00:25:51] Well, you put it in terms of responsibility, but I mean, I would almost put it as a requirement. So, I mean, I just don't think it's tenable anymore. To be like, I'm not, I'm not a numbers guy, so you just go do that and come in for me and you talk when those questions get asked. I don't, I just don't think that's tenable. Meaning I think investors look at that and they're like, no, that does not work for me. I think people inside the company look at it and they're like, no, that doesn't work for me. And so all the stakeholders, I just don't think that's a tenable position.

So you framed it in terms of responsibility, but I just think it's almost a prerequisite to be conversant. Now that doesn't mean you have to be in the weeds quite, quite to the contrary. Actually, if you're in the weeds, you have another problem, which is you're spending way too much time on it. And you're thinking about it too much.

But if you can't, for example, have language or capital allocation be natural to you. If you can't have a pretty intuitive understanding of financial metrics. You know, what thing, what will happen when you make a specific position and how it will flow through to those metrics? I think it's a real problem. 

So it's not just a responsibility. I think it's now a requirement to have that. And yes, it's important to have a thought partner who you can rely on who is the CFO, but it's not enough to just have somebody who you kind of turf it to like engage with are deeply conversant in it.

They don't want it spend all their time on it because it can lead to some bad behavior. If you spend all your time worrying about that stuff, but they're deeply conversant in it. And if they're not, they know they need it because it is just not tenable. If you, even, if you came up in marketing or you came up in operations, right.

Or whatever, and I think the great joy of dancing, I don't know if you feel this way too, which is smart. People like that. Who, who have an appetite for understanding it? Once they're disabused of the idea that it's rocket science. They love it because they see the ideas are great and they think it's interesting, but they've just been kind of told for the rest for their whole life that it's like some weird, hard thing that you don't really want to get involved, but once they do, they kind of, it's kind of turns them on. So it's, it's also, I think it turns out to be a rewarding part of what they end up doing. 

Steve Coughran: [00:27:54] Well, I, and I think you're absolutely right. And when they understand that story behind the numbers, not just the numbers themselves, but you know, what's the statement of cash flow telling them what, what does free cashflow mean? And what's the story behind the trends? I think that's when it could be extremely powerful. 

So let's, let's, let's talk about financial literacy because I think you and I both share a passion in this area. And when I think about financial literacy being this massive problem, both personally and professionally across the globe, what do you see as the biggest threat? If we can't maybe not solve it, but at least mitigate its negative effects. What do you, what do you see as the biggest threat? And then on the opposite side, what's the biggest upside. If we could boost our financial IQ, both, both personally and professionally. 

Mihir Desai: [00:28:39] Yeah. So let's do those separately. I mean, professionally, I think it's just incumbent on any rising and aspirational manager to become financially literate in the way you were just talking about, you know, the story behind the numbers, what are the statement of cash flows?

What does it mean? Why does it matter? And I think if you don't do that, you get capped out. I think you just get capped out at some point. And so that's just an enormous loss of talent at the individual level and at the aggregate level, because people who are convinced for whatever reason, that financial something that you can't do.

And that's just horrible at the personal level. I mean, there, Steve things are really crazy, right? Meaning. The holes in financial literacy are so large and the potential gains are so great. You know, I'm frankly struck by, you know, so much of the personal finance industry is so much garbage and really bad, like really, really bad.

And yet there's this enormous demand for it. Right. You know, I've been kind of playing with the sprays. I don't know if you like it or not, but there's like this enormous amount of financial, right, right. Like, you know, like get rich quick and do this and like, you know, buy some zoom stock and everything, you know, it goes well or just, you know, it's just, there's some, so much craziness out there and it capitalizes that kind of, that financial crackery, capitalizes on people's ignorance, just like medical quackery used to capitalize on people's ignorance. And it capitalizes on this kind of dream that like, you can buy a lottery ticket in your world just changes. 

And there's so many people who peddle it too, right? Like even the asset management industry pedals. Cause they're like, I'll sell you some financial wisdom over here. With this new ETF and, you know, and you know, there's another ETF over here. If you want to feel good about your social consciousness, it's just getting peddled everywhere. And of course, what do we know?

We know that it's leading to a lot of bad decisions and it's leading to a lot of things that are like, you know, my buddy told me to invest in this company. So I invested in this company. And my buddy's really smart and he did a 10 X on this thing. And so I'm going to go follow him and it ends in tears more often than not.

And it's so disruptive. So, you know, I've been thinking about different ways to address it. Some of that's got to happen system-wide but I think. It's such a huge loss. And the final thing I'll just say about that is it's also as citizens, right? You know, meaning there's a personal dimension, there's a professional dimension and there's a citizen dimension, which is look as long as we don't understand that our choices have consequences as citizens.

You know, we're going to have a hard time. At some point, we, you know, we're living through this remarkable period where rates are low and life is good and everything seems great, but that unreality will end one day. And if we, as citizens don't understand that. I think through that, we're going to have problems as a society too. So it's not just personal and professional. I think there's also a societal version of it, which is really important as well.

Steve Coughran: [00:31:33] Yeah, no, that's a great point. You know, I think right now, you know, to your last point where he said, you know, these things are gonna change, right? The, the low rates, the, the low taxes, these, these other opportunities for growth are, are going to someday change.

So when you think about the future, And if somebody's sitting here thinking, wow, we're in this global pandemic, you know, maybe, maybe their jobs on the line, maybe cashflow in the business is tight. Maybe they feel a little discouraged, you know, what would you say to them as far as like, what are the opportunities that you see moving forward into the future?

Mihir Desai: [00:32:05] Well, so there's a kind of a macro version of that and a micro version of that. So I think what most people spend way too much time on is thinking about the macro version of it know, which is, Oh my God, autonomous vehicles are going to be great. Or, Oh my God, you know, FinTech is going to be great. 

And they don't spend enough time on the micro version of that, which is. What am I uniquely good at? This is the question you asked earlier. What can I do with my talent that allows me to create value in the world. And when am I happiest working? Because people tend to think about it just as I want to work, or as short as I can, and then get a lottery ticket. And I'll go do something else.

I think that's so the wrong way to think about the world, the right way to think about the world is how do I make work rewarding for me, the answer that's going to be very differentiated on who you are, what you've been doing and what you are passionate about. The first step is stop thinking about the macro and think about the micro.

Think about yourself, think about what you're uniquely good at. Think. What would you enjoy? Then you can turn to the macro and say what trends are out there, there in the world that are maybe interesting that I find really interesting and compelling, but people spend way too much time on the macro is a way of never confronting the really hard micro questions they should be asking themselves because that actually requires some introspection and some tough love for yourself, you know, on the macro side, I think there's all kinds of exciting things out there. It's really, it's really just a matter of finding things that are good for you.

I mean, I think. We're going to see a revolution in the climate area, lots of different ways to think about that. I think there's going to be enormous amounts of interesting things happening in AI that are going to fuel us for many years to come. I'm not a doomsayer by any stretch. And I think the world is going to open up lots of opportunities, especially where these technologies have the potential to really improve our lives.

But the harder question is for anybody is to how do I play that? And how do I think about my unique attributes as a way to contribute to those movements that will provide me with a good life for my family that will provide me with social value that will provide me with all the other things I want out of life.

Steve Coughran: [00:33:59] That's a great point to end on. And I think, you know, during this episode, you've given so many good key takeaways, at least for me, a lot of, a lot of good things to go back and implement in my life too. And I know the audience will appreciate it as well. So any, any last words or anything that you want to mention to the audience before we wrap up?

Mihir Desai: [00:34:17] No. No. I just think it was just to underscore this last point, which is, you know, when I see young people today, they worry about so many different things. And I think the most important thing they should be worried about is how to create a life, which is full of learning and meaning. And I want to emphasize learning because when you, when you stop learning, you kind of start dying. And if you can find the life where you're learning, I think it turns out everything else works out.

Steve Coughran: [00:35:00] Okay. No, I, I can definitely, you know, attach onto that idea. I love the idea of learning and growth and, you know, just talking to you, I could start connecting the dots because now understanding, you know, your background in history and how that taught you to think of the world differently. And then how that ties over to your book, wisdom of finance. It makes much more sense. So. Thank you so much. We here for being on the podcast today. 

And for all you listeners out there, if you don't have a copy of the book already check it out. It's called wisdom of finance, one of my favorite books. And you could get that on Amazon or any of the other major outlets where you find your book.