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Michelle Yu: [00:00:46] When I was in corporate, I had my own executive coaches and I was like, I guess I should do this. I should get better. And I kind of did it because I thought I had to, and I didn't really invest fully into it. So of course, because of that, I didn't reap the benefits as I should have. I could have done more research.
I could have done more of my own inner work, but it really starts with like, Understanding, what is it costing you to stay the same
Steve Coughran: [00:01:16] from Coltivar it's the strategic financial leadership podcast, a show about CFOs entrepreneurs and top business executives and their inspiring stories from inside the world of corporate strategy and finance. I'm Steve coffer and the founder of cultivar. And on today's show, I'll be talking with Michelle, you about finding one's true passion and potential, and how to create the life we truly deserve.
This is going to be a really good one. So get ready.
Oftentimes in life, we can romanticize things. I know I'm guilty of this. We fall asleep. Believe that once we get that degree or meet that person or earn that title, then we will truly be happy. Unfortunately, though, this is rarely the case because once we achieve a certain level of success or exceed expectations, it's either underwhelming or we have our mindset on the next thing.
Then the cycle begins and over time we burn out, become stuck and frustrated or continue to chase something that doesn't exist. That's why Michelle's story is so invigorating. She started in corporate America and was very successful. However, it took a burnout to realize that her true passion for helping people existed elsewhere.
And she pivoted this, took a lot of Moxie and determination. That's what I admire about Michelle. Borrowing this description from Michelle. She is a former HR executive and corporate ladder climbing hustler turned coach. I love that she has extensive international experience and led HR operations and launched offices globally in Asia, Europe, and Latin America.
At her last job, a global fortune 500 company. She was one of the youngest female minority directors, which is really no surprise given her work ethic, her dedication and her intelligence. Michelle has 10 years of corporate experience across the employee life cycle, including HR talent, acquisition and sales working at companies like SoftBank, Google, and living social.
She's a certified coach with a vision to empower compassionate and conscious individuals in workplaces. So let's dive in and learn more about Michelle and her amazing journey thus far.
Let's talk, Michelle, welcome to strategic financial leadership. I want to understand your story because you have a little bit of a unique path where you started out in corporate America, and now you're doing your own thing as a business owner. So I want to hear more about your journey and kind of what led you to where you are today.
Michelle Yu: [00:03:50] Yeah, absolutely. So I did spend 10 years working in corporate and climbing the ranks of corporate setting to a position where I was leading HR operations internationally for a large multinational conglomerate, launching different offices. And really one of the waking points for me was realizing how stressed out, how burnt out I was.
From just the hustle from all of the travel, just from a lot of the stresses of work. And I had just been on autopilot. It all came, crashing down and burnt out really badly. And it's funny being in an HR position because I would see this happen to other employees, but for it to happen to me and to. You know, ask myself, like, where do I go from here?
That was a big waking up point. So, you know, after that realization, I took some time off at work. I took a leave of absence. I did a lot of my own inner work and figured out where I wanted to go. And then I transitioned into coaching, which was something that I've always said I wanted to do and finally making that happen.
So that's been my story.
And I know you coach people about burnout. Like how do you know. When you're burning out or when you're on the verge of burning out, were there like early warning signs for you or indicators where like, dang, you know, I'm just, I feel like I'm about to just completely burn out here.
You call it like Monday blues and Sunday scaries where there's this anxiety that's kind of rolling in when even thinking about work for being, I would start seeing some of the triggers, like just getting like huge sense of anxiety and fear of like checking my inbox and. It got to the point where it was like, Oh my gosh, I just don't know.
I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. And it was paralyzing. And I think at that point it was kind of late. I was like, well, I should have probably handled it before then. But it was just realizing like throughout there were things that I could have done to really mitigate it exploding to that point.
Right. I didn't, I didn't take care of my physical health. I wasn't working out. Right. I wasn't sleeping very well. I was constantly. You know, on my phone before going to bed, working up until maybe midnight waking up and then checking my work phone, the first thing in the morning. So those were all indicators that I was just on this autopilot train wreck.
And I started also getting like physical symptoms in my body realizing, you know, I always in my late twenties, why do I have chest pains? I had to go take a day off to get know. That checked out and it was just the accumulation of the stress, but I know that this isn't unique. And I know that in environments where people are very ambitious and driven, this happens more than we think that we ignore
the signs.
Steve Coughran: [00:06:17] Absolutely. And there's business leaders listening right now. There's financial leaders listening and especially for finance leaders, because I've been there. You know, there's just a lot of work, right. And there's meticulous work. There's compliance, work, transactional work. And I mean, it's very quantitatively heavy.
There's just a lot going on. And it seems like, at least I'm a little biased because you know, I come from that function. It seems like the accounting and finance function of an organization they're just grinding oftentimes. And when I was a CFO of a company, I remember my team they're working nonstop.
They were working on the weekends, everything else. And I was like, Guys we know when we're successful is when we're not working on weekends or when we're going home at six o'clock at night. So how can somebody that has a lot of demands put on them, right? They're just, there's a lot of pressure put on them.
How can they avoid being burned out one day,
it's simplifying and prioritizing. It's like really understanding, like what is urgent, what is not urgent? Because a lot of times we think that things are really urgent and they have to get done now. And then that really drives up, like, okay, I'm going to drop everything to do it.
And then you realize like, it could have just gotten it sorted out with time, like time just lets it unfold. So really being able to prioritize and understand like what is actually really important and where can we weed out some of the noise and then making sure everyone on the team is aligned to that as well.
You know, that sense of. Pressure really does start from the top. I've seen how C-level executives will then push their demands and the pressures go all the way down to the team. And, you know, the lowest member of the team might not even really know what's going on, but they know that there's something brewing.
So the more that leaders at the top are really able to recognize this and regulate their own emotions, their own burnout symptoms, their own, you know, just overwhelm and the more relaxed they are, then the rest of the team will be more productive. Yeah,
that's a great point. And realizing that there's this law of diminishing returns where, you know, you're working 50, 60, 70, 80 hours.
And once you get past a certain point, it's not productive time spent, but it can almost be addictive though. Don't you think the busy-ness and just constantly grinding and having a lot going on. Do you think that can be addictive for some people? Absolutely.
Michelle Yu: [00:08:27] There's a huge dopamine hit, right? Sometimes we get an email or like, yeah, I needed that.
And then we become so addicted to that next, hit that next rush of adrenaline of where we're going to get it from an email, from a tweet. And we're just so accustomed to checking our phones and checking our emails. And I think what's really helpful. At least for me was figuring out. How I can simplify the tech.
I mean, I worked in Silicon Valley, right. We're always plugged in and it was figuring out like, how can I really unplug and do a digital detox and really clear out some of that noise. And I know that that will sound completely terrifying for some, but when you do that and you take a break from it, then when you come back, you realize, okay, what is actually important instead of everything that's just floating around you really kind of simplify and narrow in on what it is that you actually really need to
Steve Coughran: [00:09:16] do.
Yeah, no, that, that's absolutely so true in switching gears here a little bit, you know, I've always admired how smart, articulate and personable you are, and that's why you make such a great coach. Is, is this something that was in you from an early age? Were you a shy kid or were you a kid that was really outgoing and constantly around other people?
Or how did you develop these attributes that you have today? That is
Michelle Yu: [00:09:39] a good question. I am naturally more of an introvert. I would say I was a shy kid and probably was more of this like fly on the wall. I was the second kid, immigrant family, poor immigrant family, lots of attention to the male, the older male.
And I just gotta be able to do my own thing and really observe from my brother, like what he was doing. And. I think coaching was always something that I loved and it came really natural to me. So when I look back at my HR career, that's the part that I loved the most was supporting the employees, was helping the managers talk through their situations and, you know, looking back there were employees where they would just open up completely to me and I'm like, wow, that's a completely different realm from what my HR hat is.
Go into their life story and people would start opening up and crying. I've saw a lot of colleagues confided in me and, and that's really where I also felt a lot of fulfillment. So that was the signal that, that was the direction I wanted to go in and why I love coaching, but I don't know if there was like one moment where it was, I got assigned.
I think it was just this discovery throughout my whole experience that I loved being able to help others and help them through their current situation. It was just part of my natural personality.
Steve Coughran: [00:10:47] Yeah, no. And that's great. And how would somebody develop these types of attributes if they want to? Because I know there's some CFOs out there and financial leaders and some of them tend to be introverts and some of them are more inwardly oriented, right.
Not necessarily a bad thing. It's just, you know, they're more into the numbers, you know, they're, they're not as outgoing, but what if they feel like. I don't like being like this. I want to be more strategic. I want to be more personable. I want to be able to develop talent. I want to be able to lead. How do they do that?
How do they switch gears? Does that come through coaching? Do they get a mentor? Do they just say, Hey, I need to go read some books about being more extroverted. What are your
Michelle Yu: [00:11:25] thoughts on that? You can do all of the above, but I would actually ask the first question is why is that important? Why do they want to enhance that?
Those skills and capabilities. What's driving that first and then really understanding what that is, and then being able to see where the areas to improve on. There's a lot of different ways. You know, you can certainly do your own self-help, you can get a mentor, you can get a coach, but it's understanding how will that better me down the line?
How will that improve my leadership skills? How will my team benefit from me having these skills and asking all of these questions and then going from
Steve Coughran: [00:11:59] there? Gotcha. No, that's great advice. You know, you, you have a lot of skills. You have a lot of experience in different areas of business and you could go down many paths with what you have.
Why did he choose to do coaching? And why do you focus on like the people side of the business? Why are you so passionate?
Michelle Yu: [00:12:17] Why am I so passionate about that? It's hard to put my finger on it, but if I had to as crazy as it sounds, it just feels like it's a calling. I've always enjoyed the people aspect of it.
And. Being able to connect really deeply with individuals. I knew I wasn't a finance person. I'm not as great with the numbers. I'm more of this, you know, I'm an inf Jay, if anyone follows Myers Briggs. So not as much in the thinking, I'm more in the feeling I'm more introverted. Yeah. It's, it's just, uh, it's just who I am.
I think I really enjoy being able to help people and see their transformation at the end. And that's something super unique that I got the privilege of being able to do.
Steve Coughran: [00:12:53] Do you think there's a disconnect though with, you know, business and people? Because in, let me explain here, a lot of business leaders that I talked to, they always say, Hey look people, they're our number one asset.
Right? You hear that constantly. There's all this talk of diversity and. Equality, but then when it comes down to it, doesn't it seem like other priorities get in the way of what's actually being communicated or, or what is aspirational for the business? Because I think most businesses, they want to invest in their people.
They want to have diversity. They, they believe in equality. I don't think businesses are out there to get people or to harm people, but sometimes other priorities get in the way. What, what are those, what prevents organizations to truly manifest what they believe in. The way
Michelle Yu: [00:13:38] that I see it is that they need to understand that business is built on people.
Right? Thank you. Can you, I guess you can completely automate it to technology, but there is a need for human capital to drive your engine forward. No matter whatever the function is, right? Whatever you're trying to sell, it's a relationship. It's a person to person exchange, and that's why I find there's so much importance to it and why we should.
Take the time to really carefully think about how are we treating our people, because at the end of the day, that's just really what businesses, it's all about. The people, it's all about the connection. It may be about the money and what we make, but what's behind that. It's driven, it's created, it's developed by the people.
And what
Steve Coughran: [00:14:15] do you think holds back people from achieving their true potential? I think we all have our potential, right. And a lot of people, they may not achieve their potential from a personal standpoint. And then you could comment on from an organizational standpoint, people are a huge part of the business.
Like you just alluded to, but as leaders, we don't really realize that true potential that's right in front of us. So maybe you could talk first from the personal standpoint, why don't we as human beings sometimes achieve our true potential? What holds us back and from an organizational perspective, what holds teams back from achieving their true potential?
So from the
Michelle Yu: [00:14:51] individual perspective, I would say it's all driven by fear. It's a fear of what's the unknown, right? It's a fear of like, should I make a transition completely different from what I know, what if I fail? There's a lot of that inner work of. What's going to go wrong. I'm a failure. And that really holds people back from achieving their full potential.
It's all, all driven by fear. From an organizational perspective, I would say there's a couple of things, you know, it comes down to the individual level as well, because if you have someone in a role where they're completely misaligned to what they're doing, and let's say they were forced into that role, because that was what their parents told them to do, or that's what they felt pressured to do because all their colleagues were doing it.
And they're following this path because. You know, that was what's intended for them, but they've never really had that interest then not only does the individual suffer and they're not living out their fullest potential, but then the organization isn't being able to reap the benefits of what their true talents are, because that's not aligned to who they are.
So there's a misalignment on the individual level. And then. A misalignment from where that person sits in an organizational perspective, maybe they're just in the completely wrong role they're doing. What's not even intended for them to do so. You know, what ends up happening when people actually live out their potential is they remove the fear.
They go into roles that they really feel aligned to. They go into professions where they feel like this was what I was meant to do, or this is what I'm good at. It's a good intersection of my natural skills. It's a good intersection of what the company needs. And then it flows and it just becomes a lot easier instead of it feeling like you're swimming upstream.
Steve Coughran: [00:16:21] Absolutely. And that fear concept is very interesting because I think we, we all have fear and it's manifested in so many different ways, but you bring up an interesting point about fear and let's talk about how it relates to right now, what's going on in the world. So 2020 was. A crazy interesting year with COVID the pandemic with these lockdowns, with the social unrest, you know, the political environment, there's all this stuff out there creating a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety in people.
So let's talk about mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. I mean, what are you seeing? And what type of insights can you share?
Michelle Yu: [00:16:57] What I'm seeing is that individuals are tired at the moment. Of course, given what they see on the news of unemployment of layoff that drives this fear of, okay, then I need to be grateful for my role.
I need to continue to push through all of these hours because I can get. Laid off and then I won't have a job and then they worry about their health. So there's this whole circle that I'm seeing. It's like driven by the state of the economy, driven by the security of wanting a job, driven by wanting to prove themselves in the job, causing them to work and extend themselves even more in that sense.
That's a very, very common trend. So to be able to really help someone break out of that is help them take a step back. And like, let's all just collectively take a breath. We all know that it's a crazy situation going on right now. Right. But being in a position where we're constantly feeding ourselves, this negativity and this fear, it's not going to help us at all.
So when we have people who are in the job market or they're searching and they're coming from a place of fear, or they're just fearful that they're going to lose her job, like that's the first part that we should stop and address and really ask herself like what. Really driving behind that, like digging deep and understanding what are, what's actually the fear here and then helping them to slowly start to rationalize it because our brains will go from a to Z really quickly.
And that's the beauty of coaching is we then help to dissect a thought to simple thought to see like, well there's actually ABC. And then that doesn't necessarily take us to the end. That's one of the biggest things in mental health is like really understanding, like where do our thoughts come from? Or like what's driving these feelings and they're usually coming from certain thoughts and then asking ourselves, how can we reframe that thought?
Or how true is that thought and really helping people to get out of their own head space. Yeah,
Steve Coughran: [00:18:33] because I mean, that, that's interesting because our thoughts control so much of, you know, our, our actions, our feelings and everything else. How do you like get control of your thoughts? Like, is that something where you just.
Have to tell yourself, Hey, toughen up a little bit, uh, have better thoughts or, you know, you, you sing a happy song or, or you go out there and exercise. I mean, how do you do that? Because I imagine some people are spiraling out of control right now, or, you know, maybe they can get control of their thoughts for the most part, but then, you know, something will trigger it, whether it's a post on social media or something in the news or whatever it is.
And it just, it creates that negativity. And then we just. We snowball. Right. We start getting into that negative pattern. How do you like break that pattern?
Michelle Yu: [00:19:16] Little by little that's that's the key here? It's I like to think about it as like this path that we've been walking on and it's hardwired into the ground and we know this there's this circle, right?
So when we start to recondition our thoughts, we're starting to test. Make, basically new pathways, neuro pathways, and to thinking, and that doesn't happen over time. But when we start to really expand our perception, then we can start to control our thoughts, but it just starts with thinking like what's another thought that I can have, or what's another possibility of the current situation that I'm in, where I can see it in a different way.
And there's usually a lot of resistance with this, with some of the clients that I work with. They're like, no, it's not possible at all. But you know, because they've been tracking on this. This pathway that's been, you know, cemented and it's so hard for them to see outside of that box, but being able to see like, well, what if that weren't the case, or what's a new thought that you could have, and being able to break out of that as the first key to start realizing that, Hey, you, you do have control over the thoughts just by adding a new ones
Steve Coughran: [00:20:13] who could benefit from having a coach is a coach just for executives or is it for everybody?
Or how does coaching work? I'm curious here. Yeah,
Michelle Yu: [00:20:22] anyone can benefit from a coach. So executives can certainly benefit from coaching all the way down to your junior level. People, even business owners can benefit from a coach. And I like to think of coaching as well. No one necessarily needs a coach. You have to come to a point of like you wanting a coach, you wanting to be better.
You wanting to get ahead. It shouldn't be coming from a place of fear. It should be coming from a place of like, okay, I need to try something that's new and that's different. That's what I love about coaching is being able to really open up the realm of possibility and ask the right questions so that you know, my clients or anyone else can be thinking about, well, What's another way that I can approach it.
How can I really see the bigger picture? See it from a different perspective. Sometimes we just get, you know, we have our blinders on and then we don't even see what's going on. And a coach can really help too. A good coach actually will be able to help put it all into perspective and point out some of the blind areas.
Steve Coughran: [00:21:11] So what's the difference between a coach or a counselor or a psychiatrist? Are they all the same thing?
Michelle Yu: [00:21:19] There are different things. Um, I mean, a psychiatrist, you do need your training and, you know, they are, they're able to help solve more deeper family rooted issues. And, you know, coaching is a little bit more forward focused, so we don't go and we don't heal the inner wounded.
Child necessarily. We figure out solutions on how to move the individual forward and bring into awareness. So it's less of this healing, but more, how do we move forward from here and what are some mechanisms and tools that we can use to help you move forward? And a counselor, I would say is somewhere in between more on the therapist side, because you also do need more training on that.
What
Steve Coughran: [00:21:56] if somebody could really benefit from coaching, but they just seem like they're not very coachable. Like I've worked with some executives and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this person needs a coach, but they lack the humility or the teachability that would be required to. Probably make coaching effective.
How could somebody approach that?
Michelle Yu: [00:22:15] Cause it was, I would say that that used to be me when I was in corporate, I had my own executive coaches and I was like, I guess I should do this. I should get better. And I kind of did it because I thought I had to and I didn't really invest fully into it. So of course.
Because of that, I didn't reap the benefits as I should have. I could have done more research. I could have done more of my own inner work, but it really starts with like, understanding what is it costing you to stay the same? Like if you really think about all the pain points that someone has, like, what is it costing you to continue doing what you're doing?
How well is that working for you? And are you open to a new way of trying things? And that's the buy-in process that the individual has to really go through themselves because if they're not coachable and they think, you know, well, some people have big egos and they think that they don't need the help and that's fine.
If they don't need the help, then they can continue going onwards. But just asking some of those basic questions could really see if someone's a good fit for coach. Yeah,
Steve Coughran: [00:23:12] no, that, that makes really good sense from an HR perspective. What do you think are the three most important aspects of being effective with, um, managing talent and being a good HR leader?
I
Michelle Yu: [00:23:23] would say for HR would be being flexible with understanding how the organization is changing. I think in the past, HR had a more traditional sense of being like paper pushers and the back office function, but we're starting to see more aligned, like. HR is a business partner in HR being like really one of the strategic elements to help mobilize the people workforce.
So a good HR team would really be able to align with what the organization needs and think on a strategic perspective, all the way down to the execution, instead of just being a reactive HR team, you know, they're proactive, they're right there in the strategy and they know where the direction of the business is going and they can pivot and proceed accordingly.
And from your
Steve Coughran: [00:24:05] experience, let's say there there's an executive team and there's this tension between the CEO and the CFO and the CEO and CTO, and these chief executives. What if they're not playing nicely together? What if there's tension between them? Can coaching fix that? Or is it better to just make the change and bring in new talent?
New
Michelle Yu: [00:24:25] coaching can absolutely help to fix that and understand what is the underlying issue there. There is a tendency. And I think this is probably where egos get in the way. We're like, Oh, we're not the issue. It's totally my, you know, my director, it's totally this other person. And we ended up kind of doing this blame game, but we all have a part in what we're doing.
So if it is a battle between individuals on the executive level, it's really understanding like, well, how am I contributing to the larger problem? What can I learn from the other person? And if they're really willing to. Repair and fix that relationship. Then they can find someone that's in a position to really help them like a coach.
But I would say sometimes, you know, we throw in the towel too early and then we end up firing people and it could have just been something that was left unsaid that could have really been addressed that would have fixed the whole
Steve Coughran: [00:25:13] dynamic. No, and I, I absolutely agree. And especially your comment about throwing the talent too early.
And, you know, I remember when I was a leader, there's some people that I wanted to get rid of. They weren't performing very well, but it wasn't until I stepped back and started looking within myself, that I realized that, look, these people they're not effective in their role, probably more because of me.
In my leadership style rather than them. And, you know, taking responsibility for that as a leader and taking responsibility, as far as providing them the direction and empowering them and giving them the tools and resources to help them succeed is, is really, uh, a leadership responsibility. Do you agree with that?
Or. You disagree? Yeah,
Michelle Yu: [00:25:52] absolutely. A hundred percent. Like as leaders we're supposed to give our team direction, we're supposed to give them clarity. And if they're not able to receive that and they're not getting the right guidance, then it's partially the leaders fall and they have to hold themselves accountable for that.
And, you know, let their ego down a little bit as well and understanding like, how did I contribute to this and what can I do better? What about
Steve Coughran: [00:26:13] from an authenticity standpoint? Right? So there's this idea out there where it's important for us to be authentic as leaders and to be transparent and to communicate candidly with our employees.
But sometimes, you know, we may know that there's going to be downsizing occurring in one of the business units. And you know, up until the last minute we don't say anything. And then all of a sudden we dropped this. Bombshell and Hey, by the way, 30% of you are losing your job and people think what the heck, you know, how can you be this authentic trustful leader when you knew for weeks that I was about to lose my job?
Why didn't she say something? Or there may be other things I crises going on in a business and as leaders, sometimes we have to put on that fake face and put on that smile and put on that front. Does that contradict the idea of being authentic and how do you balance that? Creating complete chaos by.
Being too open, but also not being so closed off and disingenuine that you lose the trust of your people. It is
Michelle Yu: [00:27:10] finding that right balance. And it's also finding what's in alignment to you and to who you are and what your style is. Right? Some leaders will wrangle with not telling their team things and they know they have all of the secret, but what is there a middle ground that you can play with?
And what would that middle ground look like? Right. It could be that you even give your team a heads up. Hey, I'm hearing wind, other organizational changes coming. I just, I can't say anything about it now, but you may hear a news down the line. If that is authentic to what the leader is able to say and who they are, then why not stay it?
Why not share that? You know, this is where coaching comes in because we've been conditioned to think, like we have to keep our mouth shuts and we can't see anything. And that's just how it is. That's just how all layoffs are. Right. We have this thought. But what if that, wasn't the case? What if there's a way that you can rewrite your entire style based on what you think is authentic?
And that's really what I would question leaders too, because in my position, in the past, if I were to have known, I would have said something in the middle ground and set it in a way that was calm and compassionate to my team where they wouldn't be freaking out about what's happening, but it also gives them, you know, a bit of a.
A forewarning of what, you know, without making it feel like everyone's running around on fire.
Steve Coughran: [00:28:23] Yeah. No, absolutely. That, and that's great advice. Let me ask you this about coaching and working with professionals and leaders. You have a lot of experience in that space. Are there common themes that you see with people?
Like what do leaders struggle with? Like when you're coaching them? I will say
Michelle Yu: [00:28:39] it varies, you know, depending on the individual, but I would say everyone has the same fear of this. Like wanting to fit in not feeling like they're doing enough, even a sense of imposter syndrome, whatever level that they're at.
And I love to be able to normalize these conversations because at every single level. You'll see that. And the more that leaders try to suppress that, especially when they're at the top and they try to suppress that it becomes even more evident that, Oh my gosh, they have this like huge gremlin that they're trying to hide.
And because you're trying to hide it so much that it's just starting to explode outwards and would be so much easier if they just addressed it head on or just had a little bit more authenticity and openness around it. So I would say that everyone has at the core of those. Beliefs, but it depends on like how well they're coping
Steve Coughran: [00:29:25] with it.
Yeah. And I mean, it's crazy, like you mentioned the imposter syndrome and I've heard about that before. And my probably struggle with some of that myself and it's interesting how people can be successful. Right. And the outside world recognizes them as successful. And here they are sitting in this role thinking.
I am not qualified. I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. You know, I faked my way to this position, you know, when am I going to get caught? And people are going to realize, Oh my gosh, you're vulnerable. You, you don't have what it takes. You don't have the attributes of the leader. You you're trying to portray.
Where does that come from? Does that come from like insecurity or a lack of confidence or is it just natural in a lot of leaders, this idea of like, Hey, I'm not good enough.
Michelle Yu: [00:30:08] That's completely. Normal. I think we're all human, right? That's just the normal human trait and no matter whatever level they're I actually see this, like at the higher levels, you know, them wanting to hide that piece a little bit more.
There's just this tendency to want to. Like show that it's, everything's fine. And they try to overcompensate for that without actually addressing like, well, why am I even feeling this way? And one way to really combat that is by looking backwards, right? It's like, well, one by managing our thoughts and seeing like, what's another way that we can think about this.
And then two, by looking backwards to see, well, no, I actually really deserve to be in this. Position because X, Y, Z, and these are all of the different events that led up to why I deserve to be in this position. So doing that backwards looking thing, because when we're in a role and we feel like imposters, maybe because we're looking at where we need to go, where our competitors are, where everyone else is around us.
And then we compare ourselves to that. So for us to be able to really wrangle it is like looking back at, like, how far did we come to get to this point and then really relishing in some of those accomplishments and achievements. Yeah.
And I think so often. You know, we beat ourselves up more than we should, and we don't give ourselves credit.
And like you said, like celebrating the successes along the way is like so critical. But oftentimes we're just so busy and we're dealing with so much in life and things are going so fast. We don't take the time to really step back and recognize those things. And I think that's huge. Absolutely. So let's talk about diversity and equality in the workplace.
You know, in 2020, a lot of this was brought to light. I mean, not that it didn't exist in the past, but I think more people were having conversations. And I think as time goes along, people are starting to realize some of these things and they're, they're starting to put their money where their mouth is and actually take action to make this happen.
Do you see this as an obstacle in business right now, or do you think it's overinflated in the media?
I do think that we are all becoming a bit more conscious of it, just given everything that's happened in 2020, and it's evident which organizations are doing it as a check the box, because that's what everyone else is doing.
And this is what I'm supposed to do versus the organizations that are actually really trying to handle it. And do the work internally. I would say that we're, you know, we're at the beginning of realizing that there's a lot of things that we need to do to be supporting our employees and making them feel included of taking care of their wellbeing.
And 2020 was just such a good awakening to really show that. Yeah.
Steve Coughran: [00:32:37] And it, and I agree, and I, I think like, as we become more empathetic as leaders, I mean, that, that was probably one of my biggest growing points in 2020 is, you know, never before in my life, at least. Have I dealt with so many polarizing opinions, right.
And for years, you know, I'd be friends with people and, you know, we played nicely together and we wouldn't get into certain conversations, but we had mutual respect for each other. And then here comes 2020, and it's like, so polarizing and, you know, there's people that feel one way about COVID and somebody else feels another way.
And there's like master no mask or this politician or this politician or this item or this item. And no, it's just like. So polarizing, and then we live in this like cancel culture where it's like, Hey, if you don't believe in what I believe in, I'll just cancel you. No you've done. And what I've really tried to do in my life and fix is how do I withhold judgment?
How do I ask somebody questions? Because I'm curious. And then when they respond, watching my emotions and ask myself, why does that stir up emotion, such strong emotions? Like, why should I care? Like if you vote for somebody and I vote for somebody else, why should I care? Why would that make me want to.
Cancel you as a friend because we vary in opinions and Chena. We celebrate diversity in, have more empathy towards people, because if we're looking for people who are exactly like us, let's just say we found them. They'd probably drive us crazy. Right. Cause they they'd be exactly like us. I mean, what are your thoughts on all this?
Michelle Yu: [00:34:13] Yeah, you're so right. That it was a very polarizing year. And I like to see it, I mean, as a coach and I'm talking, talking to people from all sorts of different backgrounds that there's just so many shades of gray and that are in between, right. And our worldviews STEM from. Well, we know what we grew up with, what our family was like, you know, where we went to school.
There's so many factors that go into creating our own filters. And the more that we can see that everyone has their own sets of filters and the more that we're able to detach from that, then we can release some of that energy. Why don't you believe the same things that I do and take things less personally.
And that's really what I was doing all throughout 2020 was realizing like, okay, well this person said something and it, it kind of triggered me, but I do that my own work of dissecting. Well, why did it trigger me? You know, our triggers our own triggers because it stirs up something within us and it doesn't have anything to do with the other person.
So it's more of this, like, Looking inwards of like, where did that come from? Why, why do I feel so strongly about it? Because everyone has their own worldview. Yeah. And what's true for them is their truth. But you know, what's true for you is your own truth. And then there's the universal truth. So it's not, it's not this like you or me sort of thing, but it's like, there's just different ways of looking at situations.
Steve Coughran: [00:35:28] Yeah, and I absolutely agree. And I mean, we were in the same program at the FICO school of business at Duke. And, you know, we were able to travel the world and see so many different cultures, you know, I thought it was really cool to understand how different cultures work and not just our own cohort. We had what, like over a hundred people just in our cohort and the diversity just within our cohort, but then add on the different cultures that we were being immersed in.
It really taught me a lot because we're all coming from different backgrounds. Right. And we all have the different filters, like you're talking about. And one way of doing it is not the right way of doing it. And there's so many different ways. Yeah, you do it. And I think just like, as leaders as we understand that, and as we can empathize with people and as we can appreciate differences in opinions and perspectives, and like really leverage that rather than being fearful, that I think we could be so much more effective.
Michelle Yu: [00:36:21] Absolutely. And so just to kind of take it one step further, that's really why as a leader, it's important to have your own North star of how do you want to lead? Not how Steve is leading, not how you know Eric is leading, but how do you actually want to leave? That's an alignment to who you are, because that's really the authenticity piece that we were talking about is that there's no right or wrong way to do it.
There's going to be opinions all over the board, but it's really being able to zone in on. Well, what is your personal approach? You know, what makes you different?
Steve Coughran: [00:36:53] Yeah. So do you think leadership styles vary quite a bit and there's no like exact leadership style? Is it more about understanding leadership principles and then figuring out your own way?
Or how do you teach leadership to somebody
Michelle Yu: [00:37:05] there are different leadership styles, for sure. I mean, I think. If you just Google it, there's like, are you a servant leader? Are you an XYZ type of leader? And that's one way to help build awareness. I mean, the whole exercise of figuring out what type of leader you are is having a lot of like inner wisdom and being able to understand, like, where are the areas that you need to improve on?
And then how do you fit that to your team's needs as well? So there's no real right or wrong way of leadership. It's your own style, it's your own flair on things, but really being able to understand, like what's the direction that I want to go into and where do I need to improve?
Steve Coughran: [00:37:39] Absolutely. And I think coaching can be such a huge thing for people and that can really help them through that.
How do you find a coach? Like, do you Google it online and read somebody's bio and you say, Hey, I like that person. Do you interview them? Like, how do you know if a coach is a good fit? And if somebody is looking for a coach, like how do they begin that process?
Michelle Yu: [00:37:59] That is a really great question. And. I would say that you can go online and you can search.
You can also ask your network for referrals. But the biggest thing is finding someone that is in alignment to who you are, right? Because you can go to with a coach, a guru or whatever, a master in the field, because you think that's what you need. But being able to find someone whose style completely resonates with you is the most important, because you'll have much more value than if.
Someone just, you know, doesn't feel completely in the same box as you.
Steve Coughran: [00:38:34] Yeah, no, that's great advice. And I, yeah, I think that alignment of values is so important. Let's go back to the beginning of our conversation and let's say somebody just reaches rock bottom in burnout. What should they do? Take time off, take time to think about life a little bit.
Jump into the next thing. How did you like transition and what advice do you have for somebody who's just done or they're ready to make a pivot? Because I imagine right now with like 2020 and everybody working from home and a lot of people I talked to they've worked more in 20, 20 than previous years.
I mean that for me, I worked a ton when I heard people like bingeing on Netflix and. You know, having all this time, I was like, what the heck? I worked more in my life this year than ever before. Um, so I imagine it was a rough year. People worked a ton, mental health, mental illness, all this stuff, burnout, all these things happen.
And I imagine some people are maybe stepping back a little bit and thinking, is this what I want to be doing? Do I want to pivot, you know, What type of advice do you have for somebody who may be in this position right now
Michelle Yu: [00:39:41] to not ignore that sensation and actually be curious around walking through the fire.
Right? So many times that's where we, that's where we drive our burnout symptoms. Even worse is when we, we kind of know it's there and we know we should address it, but we're not really doing anything about it. And then it just explodes one day then. You know, people want to rage quit because they can't handle it anymore.
You know, they're gonna do something completely crazy, but it's being able to really listen into that voice. That's telling you, Hey, something needs to be done differently. And then not being afraid to walk through the fire. That's super uncomfortable, but transitions and change is never easy, but it's, it's so rewarding when you get to the other side and just have clarity.
Steve Coughran: [00:40:23] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true. And I like that analogy, just walking through the fire, you know, stepping into the unknown and just trying some, some different things. I've reached that point multiple times in my life. And you know, whether it's like a midlife crisis or early life crisis or whatever, uh, I think you're right.
You know, you can't ignore it, you can't suppress it. And sometimes when we're feeling a certain way, it's like a self defense mechanism or an indicator that Hey, We may not be on the right path. And in retrospect, when I've looked at the different transitions that I've made, I looking back, I've never regretted them.
I don't know about you. Have you ever regretted any of your transitions or pivots?
Michelle Yu: [00:41:02] Nope. Nope. I pivoted four times and I don't regret it. At all. And I'm a big believer of following your own inner wisdom, because like you said, there's dichotomies and there's so many different thoughts out there, but the only one that really matters is your own and following whatever that truth is for you, because no one can tell you, when is the right time or what to do next, that all comes from within.
Steve Coughran: [00:41:26] Yeah. And I like how you said earlier, you know, staying true to your North star. And I think that that's great. Well, Michelle, I think you do a fantastic job with what you do and just your passion for people and helping people to achieve their potential definitely shows through. So I may be a little biased, but I think, um, people could definitely benefit from a coach like you.
Michelle Yu: [00:41:46] So thank you for being on the show today and sharing your insights and your perspective. And I really appreciate you sharing your passion with the world to really make an impact out there in so many people's lives. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me
Steve Coughran: [00:42:05] so much for listening to the show this week, you can subscribe where you get your podcast, and if you liked the show, it would mean a lot. If you left a review, you can write us at contact@sflhub.io. Finally to stay up today on the latest happenings. Be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or LinkedIn by visiting us at strategic financial leadership.
I'm Steve Coughran, and this is strategic financial leadership.