Kickoff Sessions
Weekly podcast episodes with the sharpest minds in the world to help you live a richer & more fulfilling life.
Previous guests include Luke Belmar, Justin Waller, Sahil Bloom, Gad Saad, Peter Schiff, Stirling Cooper, Jack Hopkins, Sadia Khan, Matt Gray, Daniel Priestley, Richard Cooper, Justin Welsh, Arlin Moore and more.
Kickoff Sessions
#278 Brook Hiddink - The Simple Business Model That Generates $2 Million a Month
Watch This NEXT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlK2P76_ZZs
Most people build a business that caps at $10K/mo.
Brook Hiddink built a business that does over $2 million/month.
The difference?
He didn’t just create a coaching offer.
He built an ecosystem that drives revenue.
This isn’t the game most people are playing.
Most online business owners are selling overpriced info, begging for likes, and stuck fulfilling 1:1 calls.
Meanwhile Brook built a scalable system that brings in cold traffic, sells high-ticket, delivers results at speed, and scales with almost no friction.
And here’s the truth:
You can literally steal his model.
We just dropped a full breakdown on the podcast.
You’ll see exactly:
– How he gets 3x better client results than anyone else
– How he makes his competitors irrelevant overnight
– How to build a real backend that drives revenue constantly
– and how to set up a content + offer machine that does the heavy lifting for you
It’s all in the episode.
Don’t just consume it.
Copy it.
Build it.
Use it.
Smash that like button for more episodes like this!
(00:00) Intro
(01:19) The Secret to Brooke’s Success
(04:02) The Advantage of Entrepreneurship
(07:57) Brook’s Unique Business Model
(09:21) The Psychology of High-Ticket Coaching Clients
(12:02) Becoming One of the Top E-Commerce Coaching Programs
(14:54) What Makes Brooke’s Coaching Program Successful
(18:53) Scaling Client Support
(20:33) How AI is Helping Brooke’s Business Grow
(25:00) How AI is Disrupting E-Commerce
(28:41) Brook’s Decision to Build a Software Company
(34:15) Brook’s Plans for a Big Software Exit
(37:08) Long-Term Vision for Business Growth
(45:59) The Role of Fear and Insecurity in Entrepreneurship
(48:33) Dubai: The Best Place for Entrepreneur Networking?
(52:07) How Family and Relationships Fuel Entrepreneurial Success
(56:03) The Power of Focus: One Goal, One Path
(59:11) The Bottlenecks of Scaling a VSL Funnel
(01:05:43) Brook Hiddink’s Sales Process
(01:09:01) Using AI to For Sales & Marketing
(01:13:04) How AI is Increasing Business Efficiency and Growth
(01:17:55) The Role of AI in the Future of Personal Branding
(01:22:31) The Rise of Info-Education Programs and VC Interest
(01:25:25) The Maturation of the Coaching Industry
The whole structure is high ticket e-commerce, but now we have one of obviously the biggest education companies in the space. Without a wife and a family, I don't think I would have done as well as I have the last couple years. I remember what it felt like when I was running my business just me in an apartment. It felt almost like empty, Like why am I working? What is the bigger picture here? I'm not a big materialistic person.
Speaker 2:Like how am I just going to make all this money and buy cars to myself? Like that doesn't sound very fulfilling to me. This is the story of how Brooke Hiddink went from law school dropout to building a business doing over $2 million per month. No venture capital, no silver spoon, just insane focus and a relentless work ethic and one of the smartest business models I've ever seen. In this episode, Brooke breaks down how exactly he built a coaching company that fuels multiple businesses, owns equity in hundreds of e-com stores, built a software company with zero VC funding and scaled it all with a team of eight players behind the scenes. If you want to build real wealth, create leverage and scale beyond seven figures, this podcast is for you. I think the biggest thing for me that when I like look at you, is just the relentlessness. Like you were just fucking relentless man. Thank you, sir. You have not like slowed down in two years. Where, why? Why do you have that trait? How do you have that trait?
Speaker 1:I think, is this my natural nature? I think my biggest I was talking to someone about this yesterday. I think my biggest strength is how, talking to someone about this yesterday, I think my biggest strength is how impatient I am. So I'm always, um, things need to be done now, always, and that goes for any anything like the goals I set in the business, um, new initiatives we want to launch. I'm just extremely impatient. That's just how I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the, the the downside of that is it makes me, um, obviously, to grow your business to a big level, you have to have a big team, and I think I don't something I'm working on, but it's hard for me to manage people because I put my expectations and my impatience on everybody I work with, so there's this almost impossible standard for a lot of people. So I find that that's something I've had to work on as we grow, and there's usually there has to be a buffer between me and the people that I'm managing because of that, because of that exact same. So it's the, I would say, both my biggest strength and biggest weakness. Where does that come from? I don't know. I think it's just my natural nature, like if I, if you ask my my mom when I was a kid, when I was a baby, when she would breastfeed me I would eat so fast that I would then puke Ever that before I was like even huluk. That's just how I am, I think fuck, that's wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then that's also extrapolated into playing hockey and studying law yeah, I think I'm.
Speaker 1:I would say I'm an extremist. Yeah, in the sense that anytime I want to do something, I want to do it at the point zero, one percent level, or I don't want to do it and I want to get results extremely, extremely quick.
Speaker 2:But if you think about it this way, though the vehicle that you've picked through coaching, e-com, software, it's had the highest exponent on the back end for you to get the result that you want. Consider when you were doing LOL you'd only get what you get paid, exactly, and if you're playing hockey, you'd only have a career until you're 32. Exactly, so you have a highest point of leverage right now.
Speaker 1:You're 100% right. I think that was a big frustration with law is I think even in high-performing careers like law or doctor, people still want to have, like they have, their job, but then they want to have a life outside their job, they want to make more and stuff. But I wanted to just be able to put as much time and effort into the thing to advance as quick as possible. So I remember when I was in law school I would always ask the partners how long does it take to become a partner? And they would say like seven years. I'm like is it possible to do it in three, two? And they would say like no, it's not so like I was always just trying to speed up the timeline of what it takes to get to the top, and in law it's a very set track.
Speaker 1:First-year lawyers do first-year things, Second-year lawyers do second-year things. There's not really any way to speed that up. You're just a second-year lawyer. These are the things you do. So that was a big frustration for me with that, when entrepreneurship it is the one thing that just rewards results.
Speaker 2:If you're good at what you do, it doesn't matter whether in your first year, your 10th year, your third year, you will be rewarded in proportion to how good you are what you're doing which is my favorite part about entrepreneurship yeah, I think I've had a similar background in consulting, because I was in consulting when I was younger and I said the same thing after going from year one to year two.
Speaker 2:I tried to go to year four, which is like a senior consultant, and they said, no, no, no, that's not how this works. It's literally what happened. I handed my notice one week later, swear to god. I was like, well, fuck this, because input does not equal, uh, a different outcome. We all have input and then the outcome is is fixed, whereas, like, life isn't determined to be that. Speaking of outcome, can you share, like, where you're at with the business right now, roughly last couple of like years, because it seems like you've just kind of exploded and you have different stuff as well which we can kind of discuss as well? Just want to take one quick break to ask you one question have you been enjoying these episodes? Because, if you have, I'd really appreciate if you subscribe to the channel so that more people can see these episodes and be influenced to build an online business this year.
Speaker 1:Thank you, yeah, be influenced to build an online business this year. Thank you, yeah. So I think last time we talked it would have been early 2023. We're doing about 300,000 400,000 a month. So since then, we've 5x to over 2 million per month now. So, on pace 2025, we should do um, yeah, 30 to 40 million is the goal, still growing as well how, how is that hospital just um number one, building out a great team.
Speaker 1:so I have some great, great people within the business now that have allowed us to scale very quickly and, yeah, great team and just going in on or work. So for us, as I was saying before, the first year was very much just organic content. So I was writing twitter threads, making youtube videos, and that was the only way we would get sales and I felt I started to feel like a hamster on a wheel, like if I stop making content, our sales are going to stop, and that sort of feeling. It started to make me not like making content. And I think if you start not liking making content, your audience can feel that.
Speaker 1:So that kind of led to the decision to focus on paid ads, which I didn't. I had a skillset in from e-com, mainly Google, so I had never really run meta paid ads before with a video creatives, so my experience is mainly just Google PPC Okay. So that led to me learning meta creatives, um sort of direct response style marketing, and that's what allowed us to scale from where we are to where we're at now, and the reason I've we've been able to scale that is because I got to do just that. I have an excellent operator with my business who's essentially the col. We have a cfo, we have a head of sales, so all these people are now doing the things that when I last spoke to you, I was wearing all those hats myself. So I couldn't I didn't have the bandwidth to do the mark if you think about it, you were doing it all.
Speaker 2:I'd like, let's say like 70, yes, or even the amount of effort you can put in was probably 40%, because you're going around all these different roles. But where does that? Where does the money fall into? Is it all into coaching? Is it all into the software? Is it into the brands that you're working with?
Speaker 1:through your coaching. But we own ownership in all of our students' stores so it essentially has an education company which is the front end. So people pay to work with us and then we own an ownership percentage in their stores. Automata stores.
Speaker 1:Yes, so for the first six months they join we get 5% of their revenue and then after they leave the program, after six months, we get 1% forever. So we have hundreds of stores. We have ownership in that. We're generating revenue. So I would consider that e-commerce revenue. And then we have a software revenue which, for example, like when people came into the coaching program, the biggest bottleneck they face is finding suppliers and doing outreach sort of thing. So we built a software that solves that. So then the front front end coaching info business is feeling everything else. So that's the front end, but it's also feeling the e-commerce and also feeling software. So I think of it as just they're separate companies, like we have different llcs, but it's just one big portfolio yeah, dude, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Where did you get the idea for the, the ownership, because it reminds you of serge gutari's model?
Speaker 2:yeah, which is like he brings people in key letter and he's done for you. I think it's 40K and then when he gets to 500, when they get to 500K in revenue, he'll come in as an equity partner or guys can just buy into the coaching program, which I think is like 15, and they can keep on going to and he'll reevaluate it. How did you learn this model? Because, like I've interviewed a lot of guys with coaching programs, I haven't heard this model.
Speaker 1:The idea actually came from. So I think a great idea for paid ads and your VSLs and stuff in terms of angles to take is. You probably hear people say this If people want to join a coaching program, the number one thing they say is why don't you let me in for free and then you take money out of the sales you help me make? You always hear people say that they don't want to pay up front. They want to be let in for free and if you're so confident your program works, then why don't you just make your money out of the sales you help me make? So essentially, what we did is we framed our offer in such a way where we say to people you can pay $25,000 and not give us any revenue or you can get in for $6,000 today, but you're going to pay the rest of that out of the sales we help you make through the rev show.
Speaker 1:So, it's essentially just a better way to frame our offer in a way that people our target demographic had made clear to us that they like. They like the idea of paying out of the sales we help them make. So we just actually work that into our offer.
Speaker 2:Specifically on the offer side. So someone hears 6K and they think, oh, that's a huge number, but what's the type of person that comes in and pays that and gets results like are you working with beginners?
Speaker 1:because it's funny, like how that attracts a different type of audience, right, yeah, so we actually did a big survey a couple weeks ago to get to know our customer demographic better. So usually, um, our average customer is a 40 year old male in a job that he doesn't like, and out of our customers, 75 have tried something else before some sort of online business before. So they're not complete beginners. They've usually tried something, whether it's traditional, trying to drop shipping, an agency, they usually giving something a shot, and they're usually middle age in in a job. So 6k is a lot of money, but, um, it's a lot less to someone in that position than, let's say, an 18 year old.
Speaker 2:Of course it's the limiting beliefs you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause I think that you can sell that no problem, because someone would easily pay you as a consultant. As a consultant, 10k yeah, that's the irony, right, right, but the thing with coaching which is explained to me this way, which is they need to put faith in themselves, that's the good result versus their fate into you to go and do it for them. Yeah, which is kind of the way they framed it to you earlier, being like, if you're so confident, I mean for free, yeah I think you're completely right.
Speaker 1:like the, the number one thing people start with, number one thing people fail with an online business is limiting beliefs. I think any business works. There are certain online businesses that you can get into as a beginner that will work better than others, but I think ultimately they all work if you're the right person. And it's just getting rid of those limiting beliefs, seeing it as actually possible and just putting in the time and effort to actually see the results. Like if you start anything new it's.
Speaker 1:I think people think for some reason that they're supposed to be an expert right away. Like if I've never done jujitsu and I go to a jujitsu gym this afternoon, I'm going to get my ass kicked. It doesn't mean something's wrong with me, it just means I'm a beginner. And it's the same thing with online business. When people come in, they have this false belief that that because things don't go perfectly smoothly from day one, that there's something wrong with them. But that's just not how it works. You just have to put in the time and eventually it will get easy with enough time.
Speaker 2:But you must have gotten insane results for people to be doing the revenue that you're doing we do, we do get very, very good results for our clients.
Speaker 1:I think we've helped. We track it. So the track results now is over 80 million in the last couple of years of client-generated results, and the true number is a lot higher than that just from people we haven't been able to get a hold of. So the people who actually put the work in, they do get very good results, which has gotten us great case studies and great reviews, and that obviously with a coaching program. That's the number one thing you have to have to grow to the scale we're at now.
Speaker 2:Would you consider your program to be one of the biggest in e-comm?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I don't personally know of any program in e-comm bigger than ours. I don't know either. I think it's the only the only info company I know that's bigger than ours is publishingcom, so it's a. They teach people how to write an Amazon book. So it's not even really a business. I think of it more as a side hobby, like you want to be an author. That one's doing about 10 million a month, so they are quite a bit bigger. They're in Hormozy's portfolio in acquisitioncom, really, yeah, so that's the only one that I'm familiar with that's doing bigger numbers than we are.
Speaker 2:Okay, you said the team is a big enabler, but how the fuck can you have that velocity of sales at that speed, at that rate and with the fulfillment where things exploding?
Speaker 1:Very, very good operator. So actually one of my first clients I ever took on his name's Brad, so he was one of my first. So before I even had the program I just did one-on-one consulting with people. So Brad came on. At the time Brad was running a company called Better Place for Us, which is a VC backed company. They raised over a hundred million dollars in the VC space.
Speaker 1:So Brad was a client of mine. He joined just because he wanted to learn how to do Google Ads for his company. He wanted to just understand it. So I was working with him. We met every week. He ended up exiting his company, selling it, and then he was just looking for something to do. So he actually came on as essentially our operator now.
Speaker 1:So he manages the whole support team, all the coaches, and then he had a good, I guess, friend from his network who is former morgan stanley, used to work on texas princeton grad, who's now our cfo.
Speaker 1:So I think we just have a couple people like those two, for example, that no other info company has, like they're actually legit um, ivy league, like very high, high end people that have allowed have taken over those areas of the business that have allowed me to focus on what I'm best at. And same thing, our head of the. I can't not mention our head of sales Dev. So he's one of the probably the best salesperson I've ever seen. So he personally closed over $100 million in the ad tech space as a closer. Now he has a full, I guess, sales recruitment company where he places sales reps and now we have 12 closers, four SDRs, and he built that whole team up within a year. So we have three very, very, very good people that no other companies really have at that level and that's why we've been able to scale as quickly as we have.
Speaker 2:You made a good point, though, about the type of person that you attract. Right, because it's funny, because my COO was actually from Goldman Goldman yeah, goldman and he was a trader for them in the middle office operations. Like not the actual trader, but just like the guy that's running all the orders in the back, so he just understands how things connect and, like you need someone like that versus like an 18 year old person running around the internet, there needs to be someone designated to do that at a small scale and even at a huge scale. Right, like at every point you need to get to that point. Walk me through the process of your coaching program. Like what's like the?
Speaker 2:nitty-gritties of how you're enabling this level of success, because, yeah, it has to be.
Speaker 1:It is unique, right, there's something in here that's unique, that most people aren't doing so I think the on the opposite side of things, the number one reason why it's being successful has is it's a very unique mechanism. So I'm sure you've heard that term before, but essentially, unique mechanism has two parts. You have a unique mechanism problem, so that's essentially for our target market. The unique mechanism problem would be the reason they haven't succeeded yet. So, as I said, 75% of our customers have tried something before. So unique mechanism problem is why they haven't seen success yet.
Speaker 1:So that would be, for example, you chose the wrong business model, or you tried to sell cheap stuff, or you picked Facebook to advertise on. So then your unique mechanism solution needs to solve the problem. So when we're doing our marketing, we can essentially highlight all the bad things that they've tried. So imagine, instead of selling $1 profit products, you could sell $1,000 profit products. Or imagine, instead of selling on Facebook the most competitive ad platform in the world you can target people searching for the exact product you're selling on Google. So we have a very good unique mechanism that solves a lot of the problems that these people have faced. On the offer side and then on the fulfillment, the backend side, we have essentially one offer with numerous different levels of support, so you can buy just the course. For 500 bucks you can get group coaching, which is like 10 hours of calls per week with different experts from SEO, google Ads, all these different areas. 10 hours of group coaching, 10 hours a week yeah, of group coaching, with the course as well, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so all sorts of different experts, more than I've ever heard. Yeah, and then we have one-on-one coaching for 6K. That's, I would say, the flagship offer. And then we will be launching an even higher ticket, done for you, where we actually set up the store, run their ads for a couple months for them. It's not going to be like we run your store forever, it'll be. You come in, we'll close for suppliers, we'll get you to your first, first sale and then you take over the store. You watch the modules. So it's the same offer with different levels of support and access.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly access to you or access to your team.
Speaker 2:That's the biggest unlock there yeah that that level of coaching is crazy. How do you ensure that you're not like over coaching, over engineering? And the reason why is because I think sometimes, when you can be like the support line to this person, they're not actually doing it. Does that make sense? They're like they're um. So the way I was explained to me was if you have a bunch of children in a classroom, if you tell them to do their whole to do the task assigned, you should go the teacher, teacher should go and sit down and go over here and it should be up to the class to figure out the problems. Figure the problems. When they've run into problems, they might check the ipad and might consult with someone next door and they only ask the teacher when all else fails. Yeah, that's where you'd limit it down. So that's why I'm surprised to hear the 10 hours it's just different, different topics, it's not so.
Speaker 1:Each each of those 10 hours is a different topic. So we have some that's like for people who just joined and they want help setting up their business. So there there's. There's just like it's not like they have to go, so it's not like there's no expectation that they come in and go to all 10 hours. It's just like this is here if you need it, so there's. If you need help, if you, if you need to talk to someone who was setting up your business, this call is at these two times. If you need help with your ads, there are these calls at these times.
Speaker 1:So we're framing exactly how you said go through the modules. If you're really stuck, we give them in the program like an order of ways to solve a problem. So, number one watch the course. Number two if you have a question, go to the community. If you can't get an answer in the community, attend a group coaching call. If that fails, attend a one-on-one coaching call. So there's like a process laid out of, like how they should prioritize solving issues, and I think we're actually launching something new within the next few weeks that, essentially, is an AI model that's trained on all of our modules. We feed all the modules into an AI, all of our Slack messages which is like 300,000 messages or something insane over the last few years all of that into an AI and then every time someone asks a question, the AI can say, hey, this was answered at this date, at this time, which will actually make it even more scalable. So I think the amount of data we have combined with AI will really help us in the next Fucking hell.
Speaker 2:I'm on so many questions.
Speaker 1:You're running your community on Slack, so the one-on-one is on Slack and then we host our modules on Kajabi and the group coaching is actually on Kajabi. So it's really nice. So a lot of people when they join, they're not the most tech savvy, so they get one login for everything. They get the course modules and the community all within Kajabi.
Speaker 2:Because we moved ours off of Slack. That's the reason why I asked we used to run the community on. Slack and it was a shit show.
Speaker 2:And then we moved to circle and the way circle's gotten just really good, like the way that it's layered, like the schema is really nice and uh, like everyone just says it's like a hundred x of an improvement. That's the reason why my eyes lit up because we were spending yeah, dude, so much money on slack, our slack bills like 15, 20 grand a month. It's like it's crazy yeah, I'm not at that point, but it's still just pointless, right yeah um, okay, you said around.
Speaker 2:So I think one big unlock for me this year was like when ai kind of started in 2022. I know I didn't start, but when it got popularized it still sucked, like the way that the copy came out. It was always just very not cool and it was very obvious that it was AI, whereas now it's a complete different ballgame and, like for our agency, we would need 50 more employees if we weren't able to leverage it properly, and that may seem obvious. But now, like, everything is super crisp, super clear the voice, the messaging. You know, even like the Brook AI can be, as you're messaging the way you would do it. How do you see that? One with, first of your coaching, how it's assisted you, and then two would ecom yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:I think it's just going to make, at least in the near term. Businesses need a lot smaller teams to scale significantly. So a lot of like the lower leverage tasks, things like customer service and this sort of thing will be able to be handled, I think, largely by AI. I think past that in terms of e-com specifically. I think e-com probably is the best business model because AI can advance a ton, but people are still going to buy physical products and I think ultimately it will make the people selling those physical products be able to run their businesses far more efficiently. So I don't think it'll be uncommon in a few years to see nine-figure companies with two or three full-time employees just using AI for a lot of the day-to-day tasks.
Speaker 2:Crazy. So you said like for agencies. You mean agencies working with e-coms to do their ads, yeah.
Speaker 1:So like right now like if you have an e-com brand and they employ an email agency, an ad agency and a CRO development agency I think all those agencies will be able to replace by AI in the next three to five years an agency. I think all those agencies will be able to replace by AI in the next three to five years. So not a good time to be an agency, in my opinion, where I think maybe it replaces the e-com store owner too. Maybe AI is running its own e-com brands, who knows? But I think the physical product space is probably the one that's most obviously safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, obviously safe. Yeah, I think there's this slight kind of nuance there which is taking an example from, like, mark Zuckerberg's interview with Rogan the other day. He was saying that, like all middle level engineers will be replaced, and the whole logic was that, yes, if you were just someone who's like you know, input output, input output, like, of course, like that input can just be replaced because it's better than your input. However, if you can add in an element of the coaching, consulting, advisory, more personalization, whether even that's like we're e-commerce store, where you're like, I don't know, you're doing something that's a bit more like personal, that's kind of the unlock around it, right, because you should be able to leverage ai.
Speaker 2:Then for all the other shit, yeah, right, and then you're offering your wisdom of 10 years of e-com or whatever that may be, does that make sense? Yeah, so, like, if that's if an agency owner is like we're just running ads, the ads can be replaced 100. However, maybe they can still come in and have that exact unique perspective yeah, from being in the game for five, ten, two years, whatever that may be I agree, yeah, like, for example, if an email agency now has 15 copywriters, they might need one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're right, someone who knows the industry still needs to be there, like directing the AI to make them more efficient.
Speaker 2:Have you seen or looked into like AI agents much.
Speaker 1:I know a little bit about it but, essentially it's the next. From what I understand correct me if I'm wrong it's the next level past how AI is used now. So like pretty much AI now is people are like controlling it, telling it to do things, where the next level of that would be AI is essentially deciding to do its own thing.
Speaker 2:So like it can take control of my computer and go do a task without me even being involved. Yeah, basically. So, like right now, generative is like responsive, like input output, input output, whereas the goal would be, let's say you set them up as an ads manager and like my ads knowledge isn't great. But let's say they look at the existing ad, realize that there's a bunch of issues with the copy, adjust the copy, go back to meta, rerun the same thing, give you another reporting and then ding your zap, your flow. That's it. Okay, here's a difference in change that I made overnight while you were sleeping. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that's the next step up? Um, it's. I think that's like the wave of 2025. That's the next thing that people are, and it's funny because it's not like a trend, because this is just like a role, you know. So the goal with this is like to be able to reduce the amount of the way. It was explained to me was that having an agency is actually a really good idea if you have it all running with these AI agents, because the whole idea is that, let's say, like an old guy that is running like a brick and mortar store or whatever, he doesn't notice their information gap is huge, especially for boomers. But if you can come in and decrease all of your overheads and now just utilize these like, you can crush it as a result. Yeah, do you get me, because it's just you and a bunch of bots, right, so you have 100% margin. So it's not going to be a unicorn business, but it's a different approach to doing this. Oh, it's two sides of the coin, right.
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Speaker 1:Like the other. The other thing I'll be concerned about, though, is a lot of these AI agent companies are VC backed. Where they're, it's, it's almost like a race to zero, in a sense, like like tragedy. If someone asked me like like, how much would I pay for for a month? From a value perspective, probably like 10 to 20 grand, but it costs. It's free or $20. Lot of the ai software now is, it seems to be at least, a race to the bottom, which I think will be hard for um regular just like one, one person on our businesses, to compete with these vc back companies for sure.
Speaker 2:It's like moore's law, right? Just the acceleration of technology, the ease to it, and the more like, the more intelligent that it's getting. So when you're because I've seen you've a couple of videos on ai with ecom where are you inserting that into your workflow?
Speaker 1:yeah. So we're using a few different areas. So the first one is just product research, so you can give a prompt. For example, I want products that cost over this price point with this much demand that have shown like an increase in trend over the last five years. Tell me the products. That'll be one way like product research. Other way that saves more time is the website building. So like all the copy on your website, the images on your website. We've still been trying to find a good one, but if there's not now, I'm sure there'll be one soon that can actually like build a Shopify store with a prompt, like give it a prompt, I'm setting up this website and then it can just do the stuff for you, because right now you have to like put in the prompt copy it, paste it on shopify, but I think within 2025.
Speaker 1:I'd be shocked if you can't just build a website using ai six months away from yeah, yeah, so that. And then the algorithms and ads are just getting better and better too, like now for our ads. We spend close to 20k a day and it's pretty much just one or two campaigns open targeting. Let it do its thing fuck.
Speaker 2:So basically it's you're saying that meta is finding the audience it wants to find, as you leave the as run longer yeah, so we don't have any targeting.
Speaker 1:It's just open budget, open targeting with like one campaign that's like boss mode chat skill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like I want everyone in the world no, that's wild dude, that is fucking crazy. So how does that so? So that's kind of that taken care of on that side. But what are you guys like really teaching you guys so as a result? Because are you going to try and get them to get ahead with this stuff? Yeah yeah, and utilize it to get ahead right?
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, the biggest thing now is just to cut down the time they spend so. So, like previously, when, if two years ago it might have taken someone six weeks to go from beginner to their first sale- now maybe they can do it in two or three.
Speaker 1:So just cutting down the workload and the time and I think, just generally speaking for our clients, we would always we encourage them to just like stay ahead of this stuff so like, however fast it advances, you don't want to be trying to learn this stuff 12 months after it comes out, you want to just like, even within our own company, like I always say to our executive team, like I would rather waste 10 to 20% time on things if it just means we're like trying to stay on the cutting edge of whatever's coming out.
Speaker 2:How? When did you make the decision to build a software company?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it launched in. We started building it in the fall of 2023. So the reason for that was I read a book by Russell Brunson called the Lynchpin Not sure if you read that, yeah, but essentially that was why it's just an interesting way to leverage an info or education. Usually, you would have to just take on a bunch of VC money, go in debt to acquire your customers and then hopefully one day be profitable. Where, with an education or info company, you have a huge influx of customers and you have a very unique perspective because you know the problems they're dealing with. You know the issues they face, so you're in a good position to then build a software that solves those problems and then you can just put your customers on the software. It's great for them because you're solving their problems and you're also getting free customers for your software, so the software doesn't really have to ever spend such an unlock man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you think about it like I've come from a software background and it was all of that. It was just how much money can you get, how long do you have until the next raise, how much equity you've left, like some guys getting dwindled down to four percent, five percent, six percent, and then four or five years later they just walk away from it with zero. That's a very common scenario, whereas, like, the next step from that was like having an email list and getting to that point, and then the step from that already is having already existing customers pay you 6k and they're happy to pay it in 99 a month a month.
Speaker 1:The next evolution past this, I think is so, for example, for our software. How it works is like, if you come into the program and you want to get suppliers, we have the software is a supplier database, so then you can go in there, connect with suppliers and build their businesses. So the next level past this would be to get someone to come in for coaching, buy the software and then we would own e-com brands on the back end that we're connecting them with to build our e-com brand. So then we would own an e-com brand. Let our clients sell our stuff, give them a great margin for doing so. So then we're winning three ways. A person comes in, they pay the software, so software's doing well, and then, through the software, we have our own brands that we're connecting them with and then these brands are being built when did you?
Speaker 2:how did you figure out software like, did you get developers? Did you get a partner?
Speaker 1:so the the one guy told you about the brad the coo operator, so he's got a huge software background so he, oh so he would be like a coO slash CTO so he looks over the whole development team as well. For us we have like three or four in-house developers that build all that.
Speaker 2:I think we should be getting paid 200K a fucking month.
Speaker 1:man, he gets pretty close to that, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you think about it. So the biggest kind of problem with software is just guys like not knowing what they don't know right, because it's not like content or ads, where by like there's a problem in front of you, but when you solve that problem you're kind of like there like code for a big platform. Big platform is so complex, yeah, there's just so much complexity involved that it's if you really don't know your shit, you're screwed and that's a. That's a big reason why all these companies go to zero and it's very easy to get taken advantage of.
Speaker 1:Like I remember, when we were looking at building the first software, we went to a couple software development agencies. We got quoted like, I think, 150, 200k. We ended up paying for what they quoted us that 10k to get V1 built.
Speaker 2:So like, having him on our team has been huge, huge advantage as well so this is funny because, like you know, everyone's like oh, build a sas company, build a sas company, but I guess what you're doing is much bigger so there's much more of a deeper like infrastructure in behind and it's not sexy, right, that's like. The reality is that it's not sexy. But would you be looking for like a big ass exit or what's your?
Speaker 1:goal. Yeah, I think, one day for sure, we're not in any rush. The one I would say lesson I learned with the software company we did build is the price points between 30 and 70 and with a b2c market, churn is going to be high. So, um, one thing that I think, uh, alex becker did very well, hyros is I chose a software that his ao, his customer lack of value, is probably,000.
Speaker 1:So I don't think the software itself will ever grow to a nine-figure exit valuation. Right now, in the first I guess year, it's doing about $100,000 a month, so over a million ARR, which is good, but it's not going to be a nine-figure exit play. The way it could become a nine-figure exit play is if we can start actually charging the suppliers that people are partnering with on there for like. Like, let's say, if there's a list of suppliers and there's a new supplier on board who nobody knows. Like, let's say, if we can charge them advertising packages to be at the top of the list and we didn't get them 50 resellers right away. There's a big play there that we haven't looked into yet, but I think that could be very good for the valuation.
Speaker 1:But I think, generally speaking, in software, the higher price point the better. So more like an enterprise package. Yeah, I think for software. Based on what I've learned so far, if you want to go for a big exit like a nine figure exit, it's probably going to be B2B or you're going to be taking on a ton of VC money to aggressively, aggressively grow.
Speaker 2:But I guess, do you need a nine figure exit when you have 100% equity? The whole logic with a billion dollar exit is because you have 7% ownership, you know. Yeah. That's why there's a drive for it. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does, but at the same time a SaaS like. Let's say, if you're going for a nine-figure exit, you get such a high valuation that it accelerates what you can make. So let's say, if I own 100% of 10 million a year, 10 million a year is a ton of money but I could probably get paid 80 to 90. Take that 80 to 90 to then do something else for that 10 years. Of course you know yeah.
Speaker 2:But then you know you're at boss mode. Then again, yeah, it's a completely different model. So there's one software you have. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or just one supporting it there Now within the company, the education company. So when we named it we called it highticketio. So the main offer now the whole structure I was speaking about earlier, is high ticket e commerce. But now we have one of obviously the biggest education companies in the space. So our next offer is actually going to be targeting other education companies and helping them scale, and we're also building another software for them.
Speaker 1:So that software I mentioned a second ago that I don't think the price point is high enough on the one. So now we're building a payment processor, a merchant of record, which essentially plugs into a landing page builder. So the best way I can describe it to you is imagine ClickFunnels with a payment processor built into it. So then essentially, when you're a payment processor, you're just taking a very small percentage of every transaction, so the LTV there would be a lot higher, and that's what we're. So we're going to have an offer that bring in educated companies, help them scale and then essentially have what is I'm not sure you're familiar with Funnelish or Funnelish or Checkout Champ e-commerce page builders. We want to have that for info and then put our clients from that on there.
Speaker 2:How the fuck do you manage your time, like, how do you manage your focus? Right, because most people spend their entire life like struggling to get one offer running, but it seems like and that's because they're focusing on the wrong things. You know, they're just largely unfocused. They're worried about something else, like the news or something. But you've done it for so much different shit and they're all successful.
Speaker 1:How do you do that. I think, just maintaining a very, very high standard of everything you do, like I don't I definitely work hard, I put a lot of time in, but I think just having an excellent team of 50 to 60 people now, and all those people have the same standard as me, so there's just a standard within the whole company that everyone's held to, and when you have a full team of people all kind of driving towards the same goal, you can get a lot done.
Speaker 2:How do you know what to focus on?
Speaker 1:So we have bigger picture goals for the company. So, like I think our biggest picture goal we would have is we want to create 10,000 millionaires through online business. So that's re-commerce through any other offer we create. So then, when the whole company has that same clear mission, um, everyone's on the same page and it comes. It comes down to us as the executive team to figure out, um, which path is going to get us to the fastest. So I told you about that other offer where we help education companies. We were going to launch that in January but we said we already have this other stack built out. Why don't we just do our highest ticket done for you offer, because everything's already built out. Let's just finish this off and then, once that stack is done, then we will focus on building that out. Probably in March is the plan.
Speaker 2:So would they be all different info companies then, though? Yeah, so the same infrastructure you'd run on the back. Yeah, largely.
Speaker 1:Probably like, since they're already running up and running, it would be more of a B2B offer, so we would probably want to take on less clients at a higher price point. So, rather than being mass market as the e-commerce one is where we're targeting essentially any beginner who just wants to start their first business. It would be probably like we take on 10 clients per month and then you pay a certain amount and we want a percentage revenue for your three months that we help you scale, something like that.
Speaker 2:What would you be looking to solve? Because maybe you know, you got to imagine that they're going to be all have different problems. Some guys will have a sales problem, Some guys will have a fulfillment problem. So no, they could be all different problems, right? Yeah. So I was like I'm why I'm saying. I was like let's say, if it's like sales, you're helping them with, just specific.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, so essentially they would have access to our whole executive team. So me, um, whatever they're struggling with, we would be able to help them Whatever's. So we'd have modules on all this stuff. So, rather than it being like so with e-commerce it's like you come in, you set up a business, you pick a product, you build your store. It's very sequential for everybody. Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. Yeah, it seems less connected. Here we would have like modules on sales, on VSLs, and then you can come in and just pick and choose from wherever you're at where you want to start, and then we would have calls on those things and they would have a Slack channel or whatever it is where they can get help. But it would be less start here, go to here. It would just be more bespoke.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. So again, it's more of a coaching program, but it's more exclusive and you're more helping them as well to back right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it is a hybrid. I would compare it more to something like hormones is doing with acquisitioncom yeah, he's.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm thinking is like it's a bit like that and it's a bit like this. Yeah, it's a bit in the middle.
Speaker 1:So maybe eventually it would turn into that where we say, okay, we want to just actually invest in very few companies and take an ownership and help them scale. Maybe that's what it will turn into, but to at least start we want to take on um a certain amount every month or two months and little cohorts for a set v, and then I have raised her probably do 20 20k, because they're already doing six figures or seven figures.
Speaker 1:We want them to be at least doing 50 000 a month, minimum to take them on. And then, um, yeah, for it would probably be a three-month plan where they would meet with me at the beginning. We would put together three months, like I would ask them like, what are you struggling with? Is it sales, is it your ads? What is it? And then we'll put together a sequence of things to focus on for those three months to help them scale. And then either they could renew or at that point maybe we say, hey, we, we think we can get your company to whatever we think we can get it to. Um, we actually want to invest or take ownership of your revenue and be a longer-term partner damn man, do you think you've kind of ambitions to try like literally be a billionaire?
Speaker 1:probably one day yeah like I think I don't know if you've ever done it if you run down, if you run like compound interests yeah, um investment calculators. So if you have 50 to 100 million by the time you're 35, 40, it's pretty hard not to become one by the time you're 70. In what way? So if you just take um 50 to 100 million when you're 35 and compound it at 10 for 40 years, it'll be well over a billion damn.
Speaker 2:Why do you?
Speaker 1:why do you want that? I don't, I don't think I want that for the sake of wanting it yeah, I just think what's the, what's the underlying thing?
Speaker 1:genuinely, I think you're a very unique perspective yeah, I think it's just the, the game of business, like, yeah, I think once you get to a certain level, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter, but you don't really live that much differently. Like, I already can buy pretty much everything I want, live a very good life. It's just the. It's like if you're playing a video game, you just want to. You want to be a video game, you want to get as high as you can. So I think business is the closest thing to that. So just unlocking higher and higher levels, building cooler things with with great people, yeah. But yeah, I don't think there's like a reason I would want to be a billionaire, just, you know, to be one.
Speaker 2:I just think, like, based upon the trajectory, I think it will happen because the way you're explaining it looks like you know you do want to move into like a private equity, yeah, kind of frame, and then it's just you're finding some good players to play with exactly at that point. Then, right, this is going to be.
Speaker 1:It's almost a curiosity for you yeah, I think, if you look at any of the most like a lot of the wealthiest people come from private equity in vc and I think the reason for that is it essentially allows you to take your expertise and, rather than have it in one company, you can scale it across multiple companies so it's just a it's a repeatable, yeah framework, exactly, but it's again it says more higher leverage, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:What have you done on like the mindset side to kind of work on this because, like, you're dealing with a lot of employees, a lot of stress, you make a lot of big decisions and you have a big risk, reward, trade-off, kind of like calculate all that's running in your brain, yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you work on for that instance? Honestly, very little, to be honest with you. I think before I started business I read all the personal development books, did the minds and stuff, meditating, visualizing. I still have goals and vision boards and things like that yeah but mainly I just focus on day-to-day like executing, like what?
Speaker 1:and I would say I actually probably have relatively short-term goals, like I have pictures of what I would like to do when I'm five years, ten years old. But mostly what I'm focusing on is just how can I hit, um, this month's goal, and and then every week or two I'll zoom out and think like where do I want to be by the end of 2025 and how does what I'm doing today play into that? And then I think, just a lot of the weaknesses and stuff that I'll notice I don't like. For example, when I mentioned earlier that I struggle to manage people, I'll start at that time reading books on managing people or speaking to people about that, but it's sort of things that are just coming up in the business that I noticed that I'm weak at. That I need to improve at, and at that point I'll try and improve those things then. But it's not like I'm specifically dedicating time for the sake of dedicating time you know, yeah, of course, it's just the fact that you have a.
Speaker 2:The way you frame things is very unique, though, the fact that you've had these 10x jumps like month on month. Most people don't do that ever, right? Yeah, in terms of like the, the jumps in the business, or the developments of the business, or the revenue, because, like 10x, progress doesn't have to actually just be revenue on a screen. Right, it could be hiring head of sales, head of finance, head of ops.
Speaker 1:I give you that exponent six months down the line yeah, I think I just I definitely set big goals and then it just I think once you accept a goal you said is possible, I think you just have to first see it as possible. Once you see the goal that you said is possible, um, your mind will actually figure out how to get there, whether that's hiring certain people, whether that's making a new offer. If you just accept that, whatever goal you want, you can do it by that timeframe. Your natural nature as a human is to figure out how to make it happen.
Speaker 2:Why do you think, most people never get there? So I think, lack of belief.
Speaker 1:I think lack of belief that they actually think it's possible.
Speaker 2:Where do you have belief?
Speaker 1:I think I just have a tracker with my track record with myself and I think, and I think the more you set goals and hit them, the more belief you'll have, and it's just a compounding effect that gives you a lot of peace. Yeah, like I think you know, yeah, I definitely. If I set a goal, I feel very confident that it will happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think people undervalue the stuff that they've already done. Yeah, because you come from a hockey background, I come from like a rugby background, and then you went to law school. I was studying like engineering. Like you've got the receipts for the other stuff, so like, if anything, it's if anything that should give you more confidence, but most people don't consider it that way. That's why I said the belief side of things, because you do think about this differently than most people.
Speaker 1:I was talking about this yesterday, I think the reason so when I was younger, I was one of the best hockey players in Canada when I was like 14, 15, 16. Like I would play with the best players in the world today with them Awesome. So I think when I had concussions that ended my hockey career, I felt very insecure and it was because I was used to being like the best at something which was hockey. And then all of a, because I was used to being like the best at something which was hockey and then all of a sudden I was just a standard kid in university getting 75% grades. So I was very, I felt very insecure then and I think I wanted to be the best at something again. You still have that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then first that was law. So it was one that first the first thing after hockey was wanting to be the highest marks in law school, get a job at the best law firm. So I did those things and then I became business and then I wanted, and then just slowly over time, exposing myself to different environments has helped me grow a lot. So moving to Toronto from my small town and then now in Dubai, so just exposing yourself to bigger and bigger things and then wanting to be the best of the best in those environments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that fear and that insecurity is a really good driver to start. Yes, right, because otherwise I feel like in Ireland, where I grew up, maybe in Canada there's kind of like a floor to how much you can fall. So people are like, oh, it's fine, like I'm comfortable, yeah, right, and it happens in a business context too. People make like 10K, 100k and they get really comfortable. You're right, but they need to like, and that's what my first question to you is like how do you reignite that for yourself over and over?
Speaker 1:I think just, I don't ever really I would say compare myself to people. Yeah, but I look at a company like publishingcom and I think like why can't my company be like that? It can't.
Speaker 2:And if you look at the founders behind that not this company in particular, but in general I like the. There's two nice frames that I have with this. Which is like most people are a beginner at 99.9% of things, so like that's a really good instance whereby you can share your insight to someone, because someone might come to you and they could be an expert in ads, but they have no idea about fulfillment, for instance, right? And then the other thing as well is the fact that like overall, like you know, it's like the halo effect, right, is that you can? You can get to that point in your vertical without even being that talented, so you can kind of double down on what it is you actually enjoy. And then it's like, yeah, most people are basic at everything, so it's a nice, it's a nice frame for you to be like yeah, of course I can get that company if that get outside his company, if they've already done it. Yeah, the path's already laid out.
Speaker 1:I think I think that's the biggest thing is just like when people hit their first 10k month, they they have in their head that's a lot, because usually they're thinking like I'm at 10k a month and all my friends at home are at this.
Speaker 1:But I think you just want to um realize that no matter how big you get, there's always going to be someone doing 100 times bigger than you yeah and rather than focusing backwards on like how much better you're doing than people who may have been in your life previously, you just want to be looking at like where you want to go and then comparing your results to like what you're aiming for.
Speaker 2:What's your friend group like at the moment compared to when you were like in law and everything?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like my friends from like growing up I'm still all very close with. We're obviously doing very different things, but I still talk to them every month or two, keep in touch. But now I would say most of the people I actually hang out with are doing very much the same thing as me. Like I think dubai has been great for that. I love that about dubai is it's it's probably the place where there's the most, uh, concentrated number of people in online business. Like even when I was in toronto, a big city, like biggest city in canada, like I don't really I didn't really know anyone my age doing anything similar in a big city like that.
Speaker 2:It's only really here, miami, not even LA. It's around my hill, yeah, here in Miami, scottsdale. Not even New York, like I'm going to New York at the fine. It's tough to find people in our space to record with, uh, cape town and bali, that's it. I think there's like nowhere else, even like london, there's not that many people. I was going to go to london recently and I couldn't really find many people in the online space.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, right, because they congregate towards the right place, yeah, but I think that's great just for for networking. And then some of our biggest advances have come from just chatting with other people in different industries who are in the same. Like we were saying before, you can be doing different things e-com agency, whatever it is but everything's largely the same. So just taking insights from them, applying it to our own businesses me sharing insights with them it's just so valuable to help grow.
Speaker 2:The majority of my guests run content businesses. They've used content as the main element of their business to drive more revenue and build their influence online. We've been doing this through a podcast for many years. We have many guests, clients and even customers use a podcast as their main source of driving more revenue for their business and building their influence online, and we're offering a handful of spots to book in a call with our team to learn how you yes, you can leverage a podcast to generate more revenue for your business and drive your influence online.
Speaker 2:Many of our clients and customers start from nothing, but each one of them are action takers and they want to learn more about how to build a podcast and a brand right around their business. So if you want to learn more and you're really interested in building a podcast, check out the link down below and book in a free call with our customer success manager and he will guide you into how you can build and generate more revenue from your podcast this year. Yeah, because that's the big thing even for me. Like this podcast, like everything I've learned has come from this. I've obviously bought programs and shit too, but just been, generally speaking, your thing you're talking about, like how you can onboard 10, 15, 20 people even in a day, and I'm like why can't I do that I can do it, you can.
Speaker 2:It's literally exactly possible, right? Yeah, it nearly doesn't matter the niche, to some degree, of course, but it's like you do need to get that insight. That's why Dubai is amazing. Same in other cities too, though, right, you'll be able to get the insights from those people. And, and just, it's really important that you actually action on it, though, yeah, right, your filtration system, but I guess where you're at, too, you don't need to be fucking at dinners all the time. Right, you know what your plan is. You know what the roadmap is. Yeah, you just need to almost execute it.
Speaker 1:That's. Yeah, there was something last week that came up and was essentially like an opportunity to like a networking mastermind thing with some people doing very well, and I literally just told the guy, like I already know my plan to 3X the business budget in a year. Like it's there's not really much, like it's clear already. I just need to execute. We're expecting a baby next month, so I don't have I appreciate your time, dude. No, of course, yeah, but yeah, I don't think. Once you're clear on the path, yeah, it sums down to executing.
Speaker 2:I think, like, like networking has like two is like there's two, two components of it. One you don't know information, so you want to go and get information. People, you want to learn. The other component is like a lot of entrepreneurs are fucking lonely, whereas, like when you have a wife and I have a wife as well I'm already lonely. I think it's the nature of my business too, though, right, because I'm always interviewing and meeting people and so on. But that's a really big proponent for young guys, right is that they're just lonely as fuck. And then, unless they have like more of a holistic view, like you're fit, you're married, you have your health and wealth sorry, health, wealth and relationships all dialed in that's just a big component that guys think 100k a month will solve you're right.
Speaker 1:You're right. Yeah, I can't imagine like without a wife and a family, I I don't think I would have done as well as I have the last couple years, because I would have just been like I remember what it felt like when I was running my business, just me in an apartment. It felt almost like empty. Like why am I work? What is the bigger picture here? Like am I just gonna work? Like I'm not, I'm not a big materialistic person.
Speaker 1:Like how am I just gonna work like I'm not yesterday, yeah I'm not a big materialistic person like how am I just gonna make all this money and buy cars to myself and be an apartment like that doesn't sound very uh fulfilling to me you'd also end up doing the wrong stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, I would anyway. I'm not speaking for you, but I mean you lean more into devices when you don't have health, wealth and relationship dialed in. Yeah, like, you'll party more, you'll drink more, you'll go and just do dumb stuff. Um, it's almost like a reaction mechanism, right, because you're so dialed in for 90 percent of the time and then you're like, oh, I need to blow off, right, that's kind of like what a nine to five is anyway to begin with, because they're so stressed in that component, something they don't like. Um, but, yeah, we have to chat about you getting married. Like you have to help me through that process of doing that all in like a month. What happened there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when I I came to Dubai December 2nd 2022. And I was here for a few weeks at my old place and my wife's tweets were always on my coming across my timeline they were for months what Before? So I made a tweet about something here and she followed me after the tweet and her bio said something about living in Canada. So I said, hey, I'm from Canada, where are you from? And she's like I'm from a small town in southwestern Ontario, which is like a province in Canada. She's like I'm from a small town in southwestern Ontario. You probably wouldn't have heard of it. So I said I'm literally from a small town in southwestern Ontario what one? And it turns out she was from. We were from one hour away and we'd never met. So we had never heard of each other before I left Dubai.
Speaker 1:So I was in Dubai at the time. We started chatting, we hit it off. We're from an hour away back home and I wasn't going to be back in Canada for seven months. So she had never flown on a plane by herself, had never left North America. She had never. She's a very small town girl, like her town is like 30,000 people and she'd never left really. So I can. After much convincing, I convinced her to come here. So what I said was I'll get you your own hotel room. I had to like FaceTime both of her parents numerous times, but eventually I convinced her to come.
Speaker 2:But why did you? Why did you want to do that Like cause? Then why did you have that much drive?
Speaker 1:We hit it off better than yeah, like we really hit it off, like we had same values, we believed in God, we resonated over that. We both wanted to have a family. We're both the same age, so everything kind of aligned. Like before I had chatted with her I didn't think I would get married till like 35 40. I had no desire, I didn't think it would happen. But then when I started chatting with her, um, yeah, hit it off. So I knew I had to meet her.
Speaker 1:So I convinced her to come here and she was in school and stuff at the time for her. She's gonna go do like um I forgot what it's called she's gonna do something with um brain uh, counseling psychotherapists, let's say so. She was gonna do that. So she had her placement lined up and so she came here and then she just never left. So I told her, like drop it, just follow me. She did. And then, because of that, um, we were engaged like six, seven weeks after that and then that was in march of 2023. We got married in june of 2024, conceived our first baby on our honeymoon, which is now expecting next month. Whoa, very quick, yeah. So that's the impatience I was telling you before. We don't mess around.
Speaker 2:That is crazy.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the definition of like you know what you want yeah, once I know what I want, there's no reason to wait.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot to be said for having that single focus. Whatever and what you're doing Like whether it's like the one offer, the one woman, the one belief or whatever you know like you'll get the results you want as a result of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the saying is the man who chases two rabbits catches none. Yeah, I think it's very true. You have to have um, and that's that's why we're like, whenever we're we're going to make something like a new offer I'm very cautious about like can everything else sustain?
Speaker 2:Are we?
Speaker 1:going to have enough time and focus to still make sure this grows before we do something else. I'm very aware of that and it's something I think very hard about before we do anything new. So I think you're totally right Just one focus, go all in on one thing. But then it will make sense to like I think there's two types of ways you can go. So, for example, if I was to just drop everything and start an e-commerce brand selling supplements tomorrow, that would be separate, so that would be like distracting from everything I'm working on now. Where, if I created a high ticket e-commerce brand that I could let my students sell, that fits into what I'm already doing. So it's like the same working on that will benefit the existing portfolio of businesses.
Speaker 1:I think those are the things you want to do. How can you add something to what you're already doing that will improve it, rather than just doing to fit the existing portfolio of businesses right? I think those are the things you want to do. How can you add something to what you're already doing that will improve it, rather than just doing something completely separate that is not going to fit in? That's when people get in trouble, I think, because if they're trying to do two things that are unrelated to one another, that are completely separate projects.
Speaker 2:yeah timeline is a super important right. Yeah, like you made a really good point whereby this thing, thing a can still grow while b is being built. Yes, like that's an interesting part. Instead of oh, can it just be maintained, there's like can this actually grow and still thrive without b happening? And that that was our instance, which was took two years to make sure that, like the full media company of all the sponsorships, all the programs, all the podcasts were running, so then we could start the coaching program yes and it was the systems from.
Speaker 2:A was the product of b. All we were doing was selling the systems plan, exactly. We didn't sell anything else. And then, as a result, now what's happened is like new stuff has come up, new demands, new requests. Now they both run for the most part, pretty, pretty likeantly. There's not much headache. But I'm sure you have ideas for softwares and stuff, that's it right For the software background.
Speaker 2:Man, the biggest thing for me is that it's going to be like B2C, but then they will have an enterprise component, because you've got to think about how podcast companies work. Podcast work, you have individual indie people, indie creators, who will pay, you know, the 19 dollars to 49 a month. You'll have agencies who will pay the 50 to 150 a month. You'll have a network who will pay the 150 to 200. And you love enterprise, you know, because, like some of these networks, dude are hubspot. Hubspot's a great example. Hubspot is a. How big is that company? They have one of the biggest podcast networks in the world. They have the biggest podcast network in the world. They have the Hustle in it. They have Morning Brew. That's where you want to be selling into, but it's the same product. So we were looking at like a management software for a while, so something to house all of your content. You know something like that, something to distribute it, something. It was basically like a Notion workflow, like a Trello board, just like.
Speaker 1:What about something like? I can take today's podcast, put it into a software and it takes out all the best clips that I can use shorts does that exist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's stuff like that exists already. There's stuff like that. There's stuff like that for transcripts, because they're all running off, like you know. So a lot of the platforms have kind of built those features on top. So I think it kind of does make sense to do something that's more like management orientated, just like workflow orientated, because most guys just don't have a streamlined process.
Speaker 2:The thing to your YouTube video. You've got to script it, write it, record it, do the show notes, make the thumbnail, do the editing and then do the release. There's like a load of break points. The best was explained to me is like the hardest point of running like a company is always the point of handover. So the communication between me and you, for you to do the design and me to do the editing that's the hardest point in the bend of the curve. So that was always my kind of goal, right, and yeah, I have the email list, I have the customers, we have like we already have it validated. But one thing I would say is that there's like so many problems to solve in the workflow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like there's so many of them. Yeah, but it's funny because I actually also have a partner that I can build with, who used to teach me engineering. No way, he's four years ahead of me, he lived in Canada and he was a full stack developer for Shopify.
Speaker 1:I think that's another big thing that a lot of people get wrong is when you're going to work with someone in your business, they have to be complimentary, like if I was working with another me, it would not work.
Speaker 2:Oh well, of course, and that's why I think the growth operator model for people who are already good is not a good thing. I'll give you an example. There's a, there's a company that helped people build like info products and stuff. They started moving into LinkedIn people and they started going after content marketers. So these guys who were really good at writing content and building funnels they started going after them and what happened was it was always like clashes because these guys already knew how to create a VSL, how to create products, create offers, and they were helping you with the same thing. They were already doing the Spider-Man meme.
Speaker 2:And that was only like revelation to me the other day, which was like that just doesn't work. You know, like that relationship doesn't work, whereas a guy that I know very well, we've known for many years together he was in in Shopify. He works with Bricks Bricks is like a block or bricks or some shit. They're a payment processor company and the dude can spin it up super quickly. It's just we got to know what problem we're solving, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And for me the reason I ask you is it goes back to focus because, like in my kind of roadmap, we've had media company, the coaching offer I was. There's like kind of a book funnel and then there's a software. But it's all by sequencing right. Yeah, sequencing is important. Yeah, it's interesting. It is Like a Willie Brown approach for his book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a book is great Like the book. Funnel is one of the most powerful things there is. But it's got to be like, it's got to be deliberate. And it's got to be deliberate and it's got to be done right. Yes, like what is it leading to? Like Hormozy when he wrote his books. It's very clear like he's trying to get people into acquisitioncom.
Speaker 2:But even if you think about that, he had a huge gap before he had school, which was, you know, guys getting started and three million a year businesses.
Speaker 1:I thought about that. I'm like how is there is a huge gap. But I think now school has filled that where it's, and the workshops, yeah, and the workshops where he has almost every layer, he has the book, he has low ticket school. The workshops are that like five to fifty thousand, and then acquisitioncom is like the invest in the company and help them scale. Yeah, but I think that's one of the reasons for our success is we have every level of that and I, I think you, ultimately, with a book funnel, ultimately you have that. So I think for a book funnel to work well, you have to have the mass market offer and then different offers funneling up to something very high ticket at some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I just have loads of nerdy, lucid charts on that, just in terms of like, literally the $10 offer, the $150 offer, the 2K, the 6Kk, the 12k, the 25k, um, but again, you can't just do it all at once. No, order of sequence is important. Yep, um, and that's why I was even considering like for for us, the decision was like do you do the book or do you do software? And it's like well, we, what we have right now is working, so let's scale those more. Yep, get the ads figured out, get to the next stage. I like to say you're always like one degree off, like an extra, like 100k a month, or 200k a month, in your case, a million a month. It's like one degree, it could be as as little as like.
Speaker 1:Like. Let's say, if we're at 4x rows right now, if we can improve our show rate by 20, 30 and get up to five or six row as, and then scale the ads, it could be double. It could be double. We could double the business just by fixing show rate 20 how do you run the ads?
Speaker 2:because I've kind of taken a different approach on this from brandon forbes. That his approach is you know, you run the ads into your ig and then your ig then just has a shit ton of like uh, self-fulfilling content which then puts them back into like a youtube funnel. So it's. It does less of like a direct response advertising and it's more bringing them into your ecosystem I think you're taught something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're very direct response. So, um, we send them to a vsl. We don't have an opt-in page. Just click the add right to a vsl and there's not even an email page. So we just want as many people watching our vsl as possible and then essentially through a questionnaire. And now what will happen in the questionnaire is one of three things. We we have like a tier one call, so the most qualified prospects will watch the VSL, go through the questionnaire, they'll go on a call with the closer. We have a tier two call, which is like we're not sure if they're a perfect fit, where they'll go on like a call with a new closer who hasn't worked their way up yet, or a setter.
Speaker 1:And then we have a DQ where they get sent to our webinar. So that's the main funnel. So tier one call, tier two call webinar. Then we also send us the webinar. So people come in, go to the webinar, they buy the group coaching offer and then they can ascend to the one-on-one coaching offer kind of people that are not qualified still buy the info product for seven was 700 you had.
Speaker 1:So then they get sent to the webinar for the 2k offer and then, if they get disqualified from the webinar offer, they get sent to the course only offer. So there's essentially two entry points. They enter at the 2k offer and then, if they get disqualified from the webinar offer, they get sent to the course on the offer. So there's essentially two entry points. They enter at the 2k $2,000 where they'll either get dq'd out of that into the $500 offer or, if they buy the $2,000 offer, they'll ascend to the $6,000 offer. If they come into the $6,000 offer, they will either get dq'd to the $2,000 offer or um buy the, buy the $6,000 and now potentially get sold to the 25,000. So all three of them, all of them are essentially upselling and disqualifying people into the one above or below it.
Speaker 2:Dude, I love that workflow. It's awesome. What's the difference between your VSL and your workshop? Is the workshop like two hours? Is the VSL like 20 minutes? What is it?
Speaker 1:The biggest thing, the VSL. The biggest issue with it in terms of scaling is it's constrained by people. So, for example, if we're doing two million a month, now if we want to get to four, it's going to mean hiring twice as many sales reps. So it's not like I can just turn up the ads and scale. We have to hire those people, train those people, which is a bottleneck, but it is the most profitable funnel. So we usually get about five, six X return on ad spend there. Where we get about five, six X return on ad spend there. Where a webinar, it's just like a pre-recorded automated webinar. I'm not even acting like it's live, it's like just a training. If we crack that, it's unlimitedly scalable. So whether I spend 2000 or 25,000, I don't need to hire anyone else.
Speaker 2:So I'm confused. Why can't you do that with the VSL with a low ticket offer? What do you mean? Why couldn't you sell off the VSL without a call?
Speaker 1:Because we the VSL leads to the call. There's no offer on the VSL, they just get sent directly to us Like the whole offer on the VSL is for a call. Could you split test it Potentially, but usually we just want to get people on the call closers.
Speaker 1:It's for that price point so it's your okay, yeah, so it's six thousand dollar price point usually, like usually zero to two thousand. You can do a webinar like a training, anything above two thousand. You usually want to be on the phone this is a real fucking sauce, man.
Speaker 2:This is what people don't. This is what people don't see behind your spider web, yeah, and how it's all connected. What else is in there like that's unique that you've missed out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think on the VSL funnel, I think the pre-call process is probably more important than the call itself. I think getting people to show up to the call is harder than closing them on the call. Such a good point, yeah.
Speaker 2:Such a good point. So you mean, with the pre-qualification videos, you send them Everything.
Speaker 1:So just to walk you through what we do so when someone watches the VSL and goes through the questionnaire, we only have a two-day booking window, so they can't book two days past today. So the two-day booking window as soon as they book, they will have a person send them a text, a call, hey, confirming your appointment. Then they will add them to a whatsapp group at the closer hey, this is your closure. Speaking with walks through all these. Uh, watch through these videos before the call. It's like a q, a essentially. And then essentially, as soon as they book, they get zapped into a facebook audience where then we push facebook ads of case studies to that audience for the two days leading up to the call.
Speaker 1:So we have like 50 case study videos where our frequency on that campaign is like over 20. So between booking the call and the call happening, they'll see 25 case studies, people saying how much they love the program. So they get that. Then they have like 10 email sequences where every objection. So we asked our customers like, what is your biggest worry, what was your biggest worry coming in the program? So they'll tell us all their worries and then we'll have like 10 emails go out to answer each one of those biggest objections in advance of the call before they get 10 emails before they come on in two days and it's like 70 open rates.
Speaker 1:So all the this is um like our, our, our customers on the call. It's completely cold, paid traffic like people who don't know me. They've never seen me before and we're trying to get them to buy a six thousand dollar package from not knowing me to two days later. So this is like everything we have to do in in those two days to like warm them up for the call that is wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, buckles into it. I've never heard this one. This is like. This is the highest level shit.
Speaker 1:I've ever heard 10 emails yeah, all based around like the most most common objections. So, for example, um, we ask people before you join the program what are the most most common objections? So, for example, um, we ask people before you join the program what are the most common emotions?
Speaker 1:you feel anxious, overwhelmed, um what what, um, what situation are you in? Or what's, what's, what's the most painful moment you've had? My daughter asked me to go to disney world and I had to say no, so then we would have an email based around like that situation and those emotions and about how we can help solve that. Like an AI, no, like an email sequence built out for.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a radio box, radio button.
Speaker 1:No, like so once they book a call, we'll have an email that says like how we can help them get the dream result they want. Is that manual? Yeah, it's just like a sequence. So they book in, they get put into a flow email, one through 10.
Speaker 2:So if they say like, yeah, they're not able to bring their daughter to what they want, that's just like an example of like. So our demographic is like 40 year old men Because I'm seeing personalization like how does personalization come into this at scale? Yeah, does personalization come into this at scale?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just want to get the most common. So maybe it's they hate their job, maybe it's they have most of them have kids. So we can say have you ever been in this situation before? Got it. What's your plan for that? Here's how an online business can potentially help you. Got it. But I think just the key lever there is to you really have to know your customer. To crack a cold traffic funnel, you really have to know your person almost better than they know themselves.
Speaker 2:How did you get super detailed on those like ideal avatars? Because it's funny, because we run through the same exercise as our clients. We use AI for it, but we go into like deep psychological triggers. I could show you some of it. Some of it's actually crazy you know, it's like really going deep into like their desires, wants, reveres, what they hate, what they love. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what we did is we have we have quite a few customers now, like thousands of them. So we sent a survey to all of our customers that already joined and we ran like a giveaway. So if you fill out the survey, we're going to give three people prizes and we would say, like, what emotions did you feel before joining? Anxious, overwhelmed, afraid? Imagine you accomplished your goal. How would you feel? Proud, achieved.
Speaker 1:So questions like this and then other questions like describe imagine you're speaking to your best friend, how would you describe how you would feel if you didn't accomplish your goal? What would, what would that mean for your life? But then, um, we would take I think we got like 400 responses and then we take that all those responses, put them into ai and use very good prompts like um to get we. I would tell ai, tell the ai, create me five customer avatars based upon these 400 responses. So then there's, like the overwhelmed breadwinner, the person who's providing for their family. They're overwhelmed, they feel like they're overworked, they don't like their job. Then there's the person who's tried three or four online businesses and they just can't seem to make anything work. So you have, like these customer avatars that then you can then speak to in your ads, in your pre-call materials.
Speaker 2:It's crazy how AI can help you analyze all that data. Right, because the only thing blocking people from doing that is what they do with information. Yeah, you know, when I worked in software you might be quite interested in this, might be finding it helpful we ran Ner scores Dude. It was a shit show. Like it was a shit show because these are like very smart, savvy tech companies. We'd get like a thousand responses a month and people would literally go product managers would go click, click, click.
Speaker 2:We'd have to read through it and there's no way to run like a sentiment or like an overarching thing. What we would have to do is literally prioritize on a spreadsheet. This is literally prioritize on a spreadsheet. This is like one of the most advanced tech companies in the world and you pull out ones you want to and you build a new feature or new product or whatever, whereas now you just take that spreadsheet, you just fuck it into ai. One it prioritize it. Two, will avatar, avatar it. You have a feature list, a coaching program built off it. Yeah, and it's done in six seconds.
Speaker 2:And the reason I'm saying this is because that would take us a quarter to run the nps and another quarter to review it and then another quarter to implement it. Not even implement another year to implement it because our roadmap I used to plan the roadmap for the product um, it's a 12-month roadmap and if you think about ai to prompt to create it, yeah um, that's yeah, it goes back to what we're saying earlier like it'll make the people who are truly experts at what they do so much more efficient yeah, because we had amazing product managers, people that came from the best I worked in trading was trading products, the best mobile trading apps in the world.
Speaker 2:But if the data is too big, you can't interpret it. This is nothing that's. That's a limitation on the individual, whereas if if you can look at that, the first thing we thought of was AI fuck it in, give us analysis, give a prompt. Dude. I was running my own Python scripts like a week ago and I've never written Python in my entire life Just from, just from my emails. So we have like 10,000 emails from sponsors and inbound people and so on, categorizing everything in my emails, categorizing the sentiment, categorizing when I sent a response, what I was coming back to, and they would put it all into.
Speaker 2:Like a Python script keeps running and it would keep reviewing the sentiment of the emails, the customers, it would profile them, it would show me how I should be triggering back out to, and it was like a better version of a CRM. I mean, I know the reason why I said it was because the reason why I did it is because you obviously have things you don't track right and your CRM just is inherent and I was like, oh, I wonder, could I build something on like a Sunday morning that would scan 10,000 emails from the past three years of business? And now you can. And then our analysis says that our, they didn't close but they're keen, they're qualified financially and a bunch of different stuff. Right, you're?
Speaker 2:you're literally only limited by your, by your creativity yeah, literally because now it's not a technical thing anymore and I had a call with um, I guess, previously, and he wanted to use our service for his podcast and this guy sold two or three companies. The first thing he said, the first thing I got on a call was he was like the big difference is, all these tech guys spend years building tech because tech used to be so difficult and the moat was the difficulty in building it, so you could sell a company or build a company, but now it's virtually simple and it's virtually zero to build tech. It's from a founder who sold two companies and he from a founder who sold two companies and he's like now did a friend say there is a brand?
Speaker 1:you know, is the person that has the brand or has the unique mechanism from it, and that's why he wanted to build, like content and yeah, I think it's also the data, yeah, the data, because like, if you don't have the data then you can't. But but the interesting thing with ai is, um, like with the internet in 2000, like I think what it did is it helped a lot of the people who are already earning a lot of money, so consultants, lawyers it almost made them more efficient online. But now it's almost like ai is actually replacing the cost of a lot of the highest paid careers, so things like lawyers, accountants, like that's sort of there it's in where things like plumbers and like they're not really effective, or landscapers, like this thing, the lower, the lower paying, or I guess plumbers are paid well anyway, but a lot of these more serviced work, um, hand hands-on jobs will not be affected because the same, like a lot of the highest paying people now that are usually what ai is going to make the most cost effective.
Speaker 2:So it was funny because we're running a pot. We've run podcasts for a lot of kind of most cost effective. So it was funny because we were running a podcast. We run podcasts for a lot of kind of I guess like big companies, like VCs and stuff, and this woman was getting venture capital to run a podcast. You'd be surprised what happened to this industry man. Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2:She was getting like angel investment and she was like, oh, I need to go to a lawyer. It's going to take like two months make the contract and all this kind of stuff. And I guess I was like when we just create a contract on chat, gpt and then like go really detailed on it and then just send it over and just get it reviewed, the whole thing was done in like eight minutes. Yeah, and she was all these lawyer fees, she based in austria, right, how expensive that be. And I was, yeah, we'll get it done in like german and english. I was like, yeah, let's just create it. She did it, turned in a document and then was like, yeah, it's, it's 80 there. And we just took this three months 20k thing that was probably going to end up in a null anyway. Yeah, into seven minutes. And I just thought to myself. I was like again it's, it's a limited by creativity, which is funny, right, and now is a fully 100 accurate? You're the lawyer you can tell me right?
Speaker 1:probably not, but it's. It's enough. When you're at that stage, you're just skirting. It doesn't need to be 100.
Speaker 2:Exactly how many of these contracts that we create that are all bollocks anyway.
Speaker 1:What do you think? I'm curious your thoughts on what will happen with um, like youtube or even podcasts, where, like, let's say, in 12 months from now, I'll be able to have an avatar that looks exactly like me, that is almost indistinguishable. How do you think people like, like my? My thought is people will crave the raw, authentic, real stuff. But how will you know or like? Will there be regulations on what you have to do? You have any thoughts on this?
Speaker 2:how will they know? Good question, because, like all those deep faces, all those trump videos and stuff, you know you almost cannot distinguish between it. I think people do buy more into the individual, though that's the biggest thing. So that's why, like this, edit this podcast is done in an apartment. It's much more chill. It's really just counter to everything.
Speaker 2:I think that's where I'm, because for everything that there's a positive is also a swing in the negative. So the more ai is driven which I completely think we should be moving towards that for operations the more demand towards this original stuff, the authentic, yeah, just just human, just human at the end of the day. So that's why, that's why you know I can, which literally happened today. I went to the grocery store this morning and someone ran into me and he was like oh look, I saw your podcast online. He was like I love like the vibe. You know, the guy may not have learned one thing, but he just loved like the energy, yeah, and it's like this non-orawai driven thing that has such a big impact on purpose. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:it makes complete sense. So it's like there.
Speaker 2:That's why brand and content is like these arbitrary terms in the air, but it's like no, it does have an actual correlation.
Speaker 1:It's just that the way that you measure your ad is not the way that you measure your content yeah, it's interesting because, like it's hard to put the value on a value, a big personal brand, like I think it's hard to put the value on a value, a big personal brand, like I think it's like tens of millions of dollars, I think.
Speaker 2:If you look at E-man, exactly Right, and I've been trying to buy his coaching program for the past like fucking three months he's launching a new offer, you know, and his business on his business page. And if you go into the detail of his videos, like it is so so specific as like how the brand was built, yeah, detail of his videos, like it is so, so specific as like how the brand was built, yeah, success of how it came um and the leverage he has now from it, yeah, it's, there's nothing that will give you as much leverage as because, like now and now that he has this huge audience, this huge customer base, like anyone who owns a sas company any, any sas company he makes he can sell drinks, clothes, eyewear.
Speaker 1:He's in multi-million dollar companies, simply because he has a personal brand.
Speaker 2:You know Daniel Priestley? No, oh, you'd love Daniel. He has a book called Influence. He has a ton of books. He's a fantastic guy from London, amazing entrepreneur. He's sold three or four ten million million companies and his latest company is called ScoreApp. You know those score cards, lead magnets, you see, yeah, yeah, yeah, he created that app. But basically he had a video which was because he sold companies. He would ask him about selling companies.
Speaker 2:People said, oh, because of your personal brand, will that affect the exit? And he was like you're thinking about the wrong way because, because of your personal brand, you're able to build a software company to 50 million. Now, yes, there'll be the dependency on the founder at 100%, but the counter is do you want 100% of zero or would you, like, you know, 80% or 60% or 40% of the 50 million you know? When you remove the dependency of the founder, yeah, so it gets you the first leg up and then you can do a U on it, which is where you take yourself out of the coaching program or take yourself out of the software. You know, eventually, and it's like, yeah, it started because Brooke had this e-comm name, but now it's just running because it's just a good company.
Speaker 1:I think it's a great way to get started. I think it's leverage In the software space. Becker, I think, has done it the best. Like Hyros is a very legit company. Like he started with his personal brand, but I don't think now it's even really attached. I'm sure he gets some more customers through his personal brand but it's just at the scale that it seems different to me than just a software that is only because of him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you ever looked at like the exit criteria, like what it entails? I have. Yeah. Like one of the first ones is like acquisition of users. It's like one of the first points is like how do you get users? So the second you can just say pay traffic or from an email list or whatever. You initially just start to de-risk it and I thought the first thing.
Speaker 1:The more the better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, not necessarily the more the better, but the more the less. Dependent on you, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you just have a clear acquisition channel, whether it's Instagram or the company page or an ad or meta or whatnot. So the second you can start kind of removing that dependency. That's it like. That's basically. That's like the first criteria and then all the other shit then is like the accounts and all that kind of stuff. But the first hurdle, because there's like nine steps I've been sure I've gone through this process quite a lot, just seeing it the first one is acquisition, and most guys will never get out of that. Yeah, because they have a coaching program built on themselves. But you've seen Will Brown, so he very clearly got out of it because they depend on that yeah, I'm curious to see, like if I had to guess, I could be wrong.
Speaker 1:I think in the next 10 years that I think you'll start seeing um bc start investing in info education programs because there's nothing that is as profitable. Um, yeah, I think you'll see it for sure, but I think a big piece of that will be. I think you'll see. I think a lot of people say like, oh, it's just a course. But I think what a lot of people don't see is the skill set on the back end of that.
Speaker 1:Like you mentioned, I'm in this program when you actually go on that channel and see how it was built, it's an accident, it's crazy, yeah. And I think that that skill set is very undervalued because people think, oh, it's course, it's easy. But if you actually go into like what goes into building a 50, 60 person info company that's doing 20 to 30 million a year, that is a skillset in itself. So I think you'll see companies like what we're doing now is we want to turn into a publishing company. So, like I can take this skillset, I can find a figurehead in the real estate niche, in whatever niche I want, and I can build our entire backend for them, and I think you'll see like the biggest examples in e-commerce are Golden Hippo, like Craig Clemens, a billion dollar company, it's the same thing. They have their internal marketing team and they just find doctors to be the head of an e-commerce brand and they build multiple e-commerce brands around these figureheads. Mindvalley, another one.
Speaker 1:Mindvalley yeah, so that's another example, but I think you'll see more of that. I met a woman who's?
Speaker 2:uh marisha, who's head of growth in mind valley? Crazy, yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy did? She joined when the company was doing like things like 20 million. They're doing 250 million a year yeah, like it's funny for me.
Speaker 1:Like I see there there are like e-commerce founders with coaching companies, um, who have done like a billion dollars in sales e-commerce sales and my coaching company is doing more revenue than theirs. So why is that?
Speaker 2:obviously there's a skill set, um, in that side of things it's funny because the vcs and a lot of those kind of vc podcasters the reason I'm saying is the guys who came from there that just interview like kind of tech bros again. They look down on this industry. I think it's a good course, but they don't realize one like the complexity of the operation, the acquisition of customers, and then two, the delivery mechanism. The customer success component is more important than the SaaS company. So people often say that a program is exact same as running a software company. You have customer success, you have customer support. It's a process going through it. But I but I think again, as you said, it's an awakening right. I believe that they think like that because they have a chip on their shoulder coming out of Silicon Valley. It attracts. It attracts a different characteristic trait, for sure. But the second they see the money. They're going to be like oh okay, because courses have developed into programs, programs have developed into the industry has matured.
Speaker 1:The industry, I think, will continue to mature as well, where even a lot of people like the biggest entrepreneurs in the US a lot of them are in that space Like Grant Cardone, tony Robbins, dean Graziosi, andy Frisella, who owns First Form All of them have some sort of info offer.
Speaker 2:That's how they scale them, yeah, and everything else just kind of happens around the surface. It's also an awareness piece. But, yeah, man, big thank you. Dude, been running for a long time, got really lost in that pleasure. Man you know very happy to have been on. Thanks, man. And again I want to say like it's, it's super admirable to see, like the progress you've made, man, not even progress, the fucking well you've crushed.