Kickoff Sessions

#309 Matt Ryder - The Ultimate Sales Optimization Blueprint

• Darren Lee • Episode 309

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Guest- Matt Ryder
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MatthewRyder
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/realmattryder/


(00:00) Intro
(00:32) Difference Between a Good and Great Sales Rep
(03:42) Why Most Sales Reps Stay Average  
(08:17) How to Create Value Beyond Lead Flow  
(10:42) Coaching and Training Sales Reps 
(14:39) Optimizing Offers, Pricing, and Sales Context  
(25:06) The Psychology Behind Sales Conversations  
(29:58) Scaling From $20K to $2.5M (Matt Ryder’s Sales Journey)
(33:17) Building a Personal Brand That Converts 
(36:24) Why Authenticity Matters in Content Marketing  
(41:13) What Your Prospects Actually Care About  
(43:49) The Power of Building a Sales & Content Ecosystem 

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SPEAKER_00:

What do you think the difference is between like a good rep who's making good money, who's producing well for a company, but then someone who's great? Like that extra 1%? What is that difference?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say it's probably when I was a full-time rep for businesses, I had a system that created sales. Even when the leads went down, my sales stayed the same because I just ramped up all of my activities. I view activity higher than skill. I'd rather get someone who's like, you know, moderately skilled with high levels of activity. You can teach the activity, but to get someone who just does it, most sales reps are like chronically lazy.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's kick off. So you've obviously coached like hundreds of reps. You've also sold, you know, tens of millions, right? What do you think the difference is between like a good rep who's making good money, who's producing well for a company, but then someone who's great, like that extra one percent, where what is that difference? And where do you how do you get there?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh I would say it's probably two answers. One would be like, you know, I think you can be a great rep that isn't like massively skilled. I think if you ask for referrals, do your own outbound, you know, book an element of your own sales calls, do follow-up. You know, I think like 25-30% of your sales should come from follow-up. I think that you should ask everyone you sell for a referral at the minimum. Um and you know, you should be uh you should be able to like produce without um without the like the need for huge lead flow. I think like that's what I would consider a really good rep. Like someone who is a like, you know, so someone who is almost self-reliant from the business, like they get leads in and stuff like that, great, but then they also like do the long-term stuff to where, you know, once you've been in a business for six months, you're getting sales every day via text and email, right? So I think that that's what that's one thing. Um and then the second thing I think would just be skill set. Uh, I think from the skill set side, the thing that really sets people apart is probably um the ability to do it fast, but equally as good, right? Because like if my calls take an hour, if I can make them take half an hour, I I can make twice the money, right? You know, so like that's that's like that's a big one. Um, and that's really got to do with the ability to probe and clarify effectively, I think, um, and do it in a way that like moves the ball forward very quickly. Um, those are probably the two things that I would say. So like activity and being a high activity rep, I think is important. Like you you you you're like just taking a bunch of inbound calls, even if you are quite skilled, is not like a massively valuable skill set to me personally, because you know, if you come to work for me, like and you're a really skilled rep on the phone, I don't really care because like I'm probably better. Um, and so like you can't like you have to figure out a way to where like you can outdo me when I'm only working a third as much as you because I'm doing all the other stuff. So like if I'm the top sales rep in my own company and you're working full time and I'm working fuck all on the sales side, like that's not great. So in order to, but I sell, like everyone I speak to, I sell, right? In my software. But I mean, it's a different, it's not like coaching, right? But it's a software, it's a bit of a different, very high qualified leads, etc. But you'd need to be doing referrals, follow-ups, outbounds, stuff like that to keep up. Um, and so I I I I view activity higher than skill. I'd rather get someone who's like, you know, moderately skilled, but high levels of activity, because skill you can earn the teach activity is like a you can teach the activity, but to get someone who just does it, most sales reps are like chronically lazy.

SPEAKER_00:

It's interesting, right? Because it's kind of like if you look at founder-led sales, the founder is going to close more if they have a personal touch with like the individual at a high level. But of course, when you bring in when you bring in reps, yeah, but when you bring in reps, like they should be just outperforming you on hours. So you're like living in living in the CRM, like actually working with leads. And it's interesting, right? Because do you find a lot of guys resistant to that? Before we move any further, I have one short question to ask you. Have you been enjoying these episodes so far? Because if you have, I would truly appreciate it if you subscribe to the channel to help more business owners grow their online business today.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because they're just lazy. You know what I mean? Like sales sales reps are pretty lazy in general. Like that's kind of like they just are, especially in the high-ticket space, like they're chronically lazy. But I think a lot of that comes down to like messaging, you know. I mean, it's like take inbound calls, like, you know, uh, you know, and so um they just think that they can because they used to be able to, you know, but that's why commissions used to be 20%, now they're 10, they'll probably get down to five at some point, you know, just because like as acquisition costs get higher, if all you can do is take inbounds, like I don't want you. You know what I mean? If that's all you do, you're just not very valuable, right? Whereas like when I was a full-time rep for businesses, I had a system that created sales, you know? And so even when the leads went down, my sales, my sales stayed the same because I just like ramped up all of my activities due to my decreased lead volume. So I had more time to do all the outbound and all of this and this and this and this, right? So my lead stayed the same. And then as I came back in, so that way I never had to offer help, right? And and then I was in a position to where like if I I just think like I was the I was I was more special than the business. And so if I was asked to do things I didn't want to do, I would just say no. Like, hey, can you train the team? No, I'm not doing that. Like they're like, oh no, yeah. I was like, I don't need to. I was like, I don't need to do anything, I need to make sales. So I'm here, I'm commissioning sales guy. That's me, right? Um, you know, and so but I would work on things quite meticulously, and like I think I outworked the whole team, but I think I was also better skilled. But uh, you know, all that just comes from, you know, I spent a long time intentionally selling leads that had no money, you know, because like if I if I'm gonna work 50 hours a week, I'm gonna work 50 hours a week, right? So, like, why would I book 20 calls? Oh, because these other ones aren't good enough. It's like, yeah, but why wouldn't you just use that opportunity to get better? I don't understand it. Like, you're not as good as you could be, correct? Sweet. Well, there's no downside to trying to sell someone who can't afford it if you know they can't afford it, but now you've got an opportunity to learn how to make someone beg for it. If you can make people with no money desperately want the product, then you can make people with money desperately want the product, and then they're gonna buy it. So, like, if if you're looking for opportunities to get better, you know, then fill yourself up with broke leads and make them really want it. Because now you're like, why role play when you can just do that? You know, why filter so hard? And then when you get better and your opportunity is higher, like you're filled up with better leads anyway, then bring in your filters to maintain your level of fullness, and then when the volume goes down, decrease the filters to maintain your level of fullness. Because I'd rather have 10 leads with a 2% chance of selling them than zero leads with a 100% chance of selling no one. Because at least one I get better, and I can pipeline people because like money is title, it comes in and out, right? But if you've got 10 people who now wanted the product, then chances are a couple of them come back over the next two, three, four, five, six months and buy it. You know what I mean? So I don't I don't understand the mindset behind like I need to protect my calendar. It's like, yeah, but you're broke. Like you don't make any money, mate. Like, what are you talking about? Unless you're making like serious money, I don't understand why you would protect your calendar. I'm not saying you need to open up from 3 a.m. to to 8 p.m. But like I think a nine to five, you could probably do that. I need to protect my headspace. How about you not be such a weak count? You know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't make any sense, like to me. And I think that's the real problem. People are taught that stuff, and it's like, ugh, you know, like that's lay down, that's a checkout chick, man.

SPEAKER_00:

It it's kind of it's interesting because when you compare the high ticket space to, let's say, traditional sales, so B2B sauce sales or anything about open sales, you're even using the lingo, the terminology of what they're using and the activities that they do because they're working nine to five plus everything else. So it's interesting because the high ticket space is more like a scapegoat to avoid that. But the best reps do this shit, they they hit their KPIs, they do all the big things that they need to be doing outside of the calls as well as filling up the calls. So the difference between it is just becoming fucking uh it's it's becoming valuable, right? You become valuable.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like we, it's really funny. I I work with a business called community coaches. There's like 700 sales reps, right? Um, and I sort of set up the sales system, did a lot of the recruitment, and then I brought in a system for one of the divisions that I was running with open office hours. So I had four hours a day where I had someone online. We literally quintupled the revenue of that division just by having an open spot four hours a day where somebody was manning it and everybody would just come in and dial together. People had been in the business for two months and never made a sale. Day one made sales. Why? Because in that four hours, they worked more than the previous four months. Like, because they were just dialing for four hours straight. And lo and behold, they made a couple sales. Wow. You know, like people doing$50 a day thinking it's work. It's like, mate, you work for 17 minutes. Like, I I owning dialer, I can see everyone's hours, right? Because every single minute is logged, right? Um, it's like a very high transparency. The average setter works for about two hours a day.

SPEAKER_00:

And how many dollars are they getting? Just for context. This is interesting. And when you see that, like 100 and 150, something like that. So that's taking two fucking hours, man.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, easy. That is absolutely wild, though, right? Because like that's I wouldn't say it's a benchmark, but I would say that's a very normal number to hit like 100 to 150.

SPEAKER_01:

If somebody dials for eight hours a day and nobody picks up, they'll do close to 16 to 700 dollars if nobody picks up. If if they dial for eight hours a day and they have a like a pickup rate of like say 10% and an average conversation length of say like 10 minutes, right? Um, they'll probably do like five to six hundred. Fucking crazy. Like if you work an eight hour day. But I have yet to see a single person on dialer work for eight hours and you own the software.

SPEAKER_00:

There's not a single person that's done it. Uh, what I really wanted to ask you about was learning and training. Because as you said there, that uh sales reps are inherently lazy. There's a there's a flip side to it where sales reps can be or inherently egotistical, so tough to coach. Some are tough to coach. Where would you find the balance between where would you find the balance between the feedback loop to get better uh and to learn in there? And what are you guys doing to adapt to that? So like whether that's like and I wouldn't say AI role playing or maybe or AI reviewing, like how are you speeding up that process of learning, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the re the the problem is that people are trying to do too much to speed it up, and if you did a lot less, you'd probably make it go faster. Like, I think role playing is a borderline waste of time. Um you know, I like I really think it is. I think doing any more than an hour or two hours a week worth of development is probably stupid. Um, because it like the goal is to make more money, right? So you have to understand that like I've coached a lot of people, and my coaching style is very direct and abrupt, but it's also like, okay, that's enough now. And I try to only give one piece of feedback, you know what I mean? Um, because if you give two and they get an uplift, like which one did it? I don't know, right? So like it becomes very difficult to track and and do anything meaningful. And so the first thing is when people are new, they suck. And they suck it, like, but even good reps on a brand new offer are gonna suck a bit, right? So I'm not really gonna even think about it for a couple of weeks. Like, just let them fuck it up, it's fine. Like the the variability inherent in new, it negates any ability to coach effectively. Okay. Now, if I'm selling a coaching business, like I really don't want to push that narrative, but it's a hundred percent true. Okay. So, like, hey, you're new, you don't need any feedback, go away, doll for two weeks, do your thing, and then we'll come back, have a look, and see if we can see a pattern. Because the problem is if I have a different inflection point, like say I'm trying to work on my opener, right? Like, hey, this is Matt, you know, I'm doing outbound. If my inflections are different for like say, say there's 10 different variations, like minor variations, right? Where I don't say it exactly the same on my opener, then the variability is the problem, right? Because there's no predictable answer to that. And so the first thing I have to do is go, hey man, we just have to pick a way of doing it and see what happens. Because there is no good sales style and no bad sales style. There's just what works. And if you scream like a Wookiee, it's fine by me. Right. And chances are it's far more personality dependent than what it is anything else, whether you were to use any PQ or straight line or whatever. If you're a pussy, do not use any PQ. Right? It'll just make you more of a pussy. Is it a great sales style? Absolutely. For someone like me, it's fucking phenomenal because I am a bulldozer of a human, very confident in myself and very forthright. So the neutrality counters me very well and makes me far more palatable and makes me more persuasive. If I'm a meek and meager person, right, and I don't even mean that in a derogatory way, but if I would never say, if I would never pipe up if somebody were to cut in front of me in line, right? And if I use a really neutral language and then I'm neutral tonality and my and I'm very passive as an individual, all I'm gonna do is sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, and that I'm a massive pussy, right? So I'm probably better off using like a straight line. Right? Now, is straight line better than any PQ? No, not even on a country mile, not even close, right? NEPQ, I think, is probably the best overall sales style. However, like it's different for everybody. And I think if you don't understand that, like it's gonna create problems. Like it's not there is no one size fits all. Do you know what I mean? The key is like figure out what's best for you. And the chances are it's a little bit of a hybrid of everything, right? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Are you an agency owner, coach, or consultant looking to scale your online business? At Volks, we help business owners scale their online business with content. We help them specifically build a high-ticket offer, create content that turns into clients, and also help them with the sales process to make sure every single call that's booked in your calendar turns into a client. If you want to see more about exactly how we do this, hit the first link down below and watch a full free training on how smart entrepreneurs are building a business in 2025. Would you would you add in there as well the context of the offer industry as well as pricing? Because like I know we I watch a lot of your content, man, and you know, the whole idea of like one call versus two call, you know, payment on the call, payment off the call, like like where do you add content?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, where do you add context? So, like, you know, if if I'm teaching new people, right, to do like if it's outbound, and like again, it's a it's a case of like well, which one's faster? Because what if I let's say I were to use an NEPQ script with a 30% close rate off outbound and it took us 45 minutes to close them, but I had a 20% close rate using straight line, but it was 12 minutes.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Like which one's better? Do the math, figure it out.

SPEAKER_00:

You'll close more sales, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like one gets you higher close rate, one gets you more closes. Which one do you want? Right? So maybe for your inbounds, you use one, for your outbounds, you use another, right? Different teams, whatever. So, or you create a hybrid mix, whatever it is. But like again, it's the answer of like what what is most effective? I was literally just on a call just then, um, war gaming a script. You know what I mean? And and it's like, well, the context of the script is most of the people doing it suck. Okay, then we can't have questions that require skilled tonality to pull off. Like, hey, is that impacting in any way? Nope, not doing that because they suck. Right now, for the four or five guys who are good, let's leave that in, but for the majority, let's take it out because they suck. And that's a hard question to do well. So, like, why would we put it in there? You know, so like it's a lot more nuanced than people think. And like, there is no like do it this way. I think that's disingenuous, right? Anyone who says like something is right or wrong, that there's a definitive, is either being disingenuous or hasn't had many, uh hasn't had many like different uh contexts, right? Like hasn't sold many different things. Like how I sell dialer is completely different to how I would sell coaching. But it's also like the offer is a no-brainer. It's like the leads are organic and do you know what I mean? Like it's a it's a high ROI, it makes sense, it solves a real problem. So like I could just go, you want to do it? And fucking 50% of people would be like, yeah, right. You know what I mean? So like that's really the only thing. And like we're not hard closing because like there's decision makers that have to do stuff, there's like an integration, there's uh there's a there's like a there's a fuck around to like like like adopting it, right? Like there's any software changeover. So we do it differently. Um, you know, and I had to go out there and I had to learn some of the tricks of selling software, right? Like you put in things into your proposal that you're intentionally going to take off to drive more urgency, right? Like that's a that's what you do in software. It's you're like, hey, our adjoining fee is three grand, but if you sign before this date, it's two. Oh, okay. You know what I mean?

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

They signed two days before. Fucking perfect. Do you know what I mean? And so, like, just just stuff like that, right? So there's things that you intentionally do in order to drive more urgency because like with software and stuff like that, the urgency just isn't like it's more difficult to build and there's more people and it's a fuck around, right? And so, you know, um, you know, I think like, you know, like with sales training, it's like, what are we optimizing for? Um, you know, and so we we pick a metric to optimize for. And like some metrics, like if I'm gonna optimize for speed, like if I want 30-minute calls, I have to give up close rate a little bit. But if I can take it from a 40% close rate at 65 minutes to a 25% close rate at 30 minutes, I can stack back to back. I was like, oh, that probably makes a lot of sense. Do you know what I mean? Like just the sheer fact that like we can hold three times the calls or two and a half times the calls, I was like, we end up with more sales. Also, our show rate will likely increase because we're able to bring more of the calls towards us instead of having to book them out because now we have way more slots available. You know, our reps are back to back, we're kind of happy. Acquisition costs might even go down a little bit, right? Even though close rate goes down. So, like, you know, from a sales op standpoint, like those are those are real things to consider. And when you're optimizing for sales training, you want to optimize for a variable and and not really worry about anything else. And that's the real difficult part about sales training is that people don't like doing a couple of things because it doesn't make them sound smart. And most sales training is just people like fucking mentally masturbating on Zoom, trying to make themselves sound clever, but not asking the real questions to get enough context to be able to answer things properly. And so, like, because like if you go, hey, when someone says this, what do I say? If you answer that question, you're a charlatan.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

It's like, well, what do you mean? When? What's the what's the context here? How far into the call is it? Is it outbound? Is it inbound? Like, are you good? What do you say before that? Oh, okay. Well, chances are, mate, you just suck and shouldn't worry about that. Right? You sound weird. Like I had a conversation today, he asked me all these questions, and I said, You mumble. And he goes, huh? And I was like, You mumble. I was like, so I'm not gonna fix anything until you stop mumbling. And that's not because I can't understand you, but that's because you're talking like I'm on Zoom and I'm 41 and I'm not deaf. Your prospects are 50s, 60s, and you're on phone, right? Lower audio quality, and you mumble. I can barely understand you. What's up, baby? Okay. Um, Ing, come try and get them. Um, so I was like, so all of your problems are probably just caused to the fact that like people are too polite to say they can't understand you. They probably say it once or twice, and then from there just switch off. So why don't we just stop mumbling and then see what happens? Right? Because like that's the stupidest thing you do. And if that's the stupidest thing you do, if I fix that, maybe it fixes like four other things. Or I could do what most sales coaches do and go, Well, what you gotta do is you gotta ask this question. It's like, yeah, but he's mumbling.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the the messenger, the message is just it's just blurred, right? It's like he's speaking different language, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Or people with like crazy accents or people with like really odd talking styles. Like, I feel like I have to be like the fucking Kramer to the world because these people come on SalesTrain and I go, You sound super weird. Like, why do you talk like that? And then I'll ask them about their life, and they talk to me normally. I go, Hey, where'd you grow up? And they go, Oh, this and this, this, and they tell normal. And I go, Hey, you see that? You sound normal. And when you sell, you sound. I told one guy he sounds like a fucking like a prepubescent Michael Jackson. I was like, Why do you sound like that? And he's like, Oh, I don't know. And I was like, Well, that's weird, and people are gonna think it's weird, and therefore, everything, every, everything that you say is taken in a weird way. So we need to stop that. And the dude like quintupled his sales because there was nothing wrong with what he was saying. All of his decision making was great, which is like the number one other thing is like, is the decision making bad or is the execution bad? Right? Like, if the execution is bad, it's not a problem, right? So if if okay, so if I'm listening to someone role play, I'm listening to a sales call, and they confuse, like I did not see that next question coming, right? Then they did something wrong because like I sh I will know the right way to go. Now, if they can justify and I go, oh, that makes sense. Right. But if they go, well, I uh I thought, you know, it's like that makes no sense, then your decision making and calls is bad. If your decision making is bad, it's a very difficult fix. Right? Like it's because you're there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what has to happen here. So I would just tell that person, go back, read your script a thousand times, right? Just memorize the living fuck out of it, and I need you to write the what you're trying to get out of each question, right? Because now maybe you just aren't understanding how things are supposed to stack. So you're trying to get like information in silos, but it's not a siloed conversation, it's part of one big thing, right? Which is why, like, when you do a two-call close, it has to be written as one script, right? And then you break it off into two. You can't have one script and the other because there's too much crossover and it sounds weird. You know, or that guy asked me this, then you gotta be like, no, I know that Brendan asked you this, but I'd love to hear it in your own words. And it's like, what a fucking gay conversation to be having. You know, it's like it's like stupid. So, um, but but and so you know, it's like if the decision making is bad, we have to go, okay, how bad is it? If it's really bad, mate, beat it. Go go somewhere else, right? Like, I'm not, I can't coach you. I can, but I don't want to, right? Like it's too much effort. If the if the decision making is good, but which would terrible execution, it's pr pretty easy fix. And I don't think many people talk about that side of it because they're trying to fix execution problems. But you know, if the decision making is bad and the execution is brilliant, it's a disaster anyway.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Like you've heard sales call where you're like, where the fuck did that come from? You're just like, whoa, that took a turn. And it's because so like that guy is like, and especially if their execution is good, it's probably even a bigger problem because they're just like fundamentally terrible at sales. You know what I mean? And so it's like you don't understand communication, you don't understand people, like you know, and then I'll test them and I'll go, um, which one's more important? One, two, three, which one? Right? I'll go one, two, three, which one's more important? I'll go one and two and and three. Which one's more important? Right? So first one you can't tell, second one, one, third one, three, right? So it's because of the hesitation, right? Like that's how humans communicate. You know what I mean? Why is that important to you now, though? Okay. Why is that important to you now though? I can predict how you answer, right? The first one is time frame, the second one is the tangible, which we just spoke about. So I can control your answer through my intonation, right? Um, and so like if they can't pick shit like that up, then like they're not good at talking to people.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting. That's so crazy. Can you can you double top on the psychology part of it? Like, how much do you do you coach on that? How much do you emphasize that with people? When you say that, what do you mean though? In a way that like you're teaching people mainly like what you're trying to, what's the motive, right? So, what's the motive behind the questions? What's like the the trigger that you're trying to get the prospect to have whether to open up emotionally, to tell more of a logical answer? Like, is that something you dive more into?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I I think um again, it's skill level dependent, right? So that there's a lot going on, and like the better you are at sales, the more you can see. Um, but the problem is like people are being coached above their level, like significantly. So it makes them overthink everything and they become worse. You know, so that's why like I just want to fix one thing, and I want to get you serviceable, knowing that like I don't think you're gonna be very good until you've been doing this for years. Right. So it's like, let's get you serviceable, then you just need time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so you just need reps, reps, right? Just like hundreds and hundreds and thousands of reps.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, you know, if you spend twenty thousand dollars on a sales training program, well done to you. But if you're spending eight hours a week, right, let's just say, let's say you work uh eight hours a day, right? Let's just say that you definitely don't for your sales rep, listen to this, but you work eight hours a day and you make a hundred thousand dollars a year, right? Eight times five uh times forty-eight, right? Divided by a hundred thousand, right? So a hundred thousand, twenty. All right, cool. So it's like fifty-two bucks an hour, right? Let's just say that. Okay, now let's just say you spend eight hours a week in the sales training course, which people do, right? That's$416, right? Which is eight hundred dollars a week because now you can't make money in that four in that eight hours. So now you're doing times two, so because you're spending the money, right? So you're spending time not making money, so it's a double time, right? So and that's that's eight hundred and thirty-three dollars a week, right? Multiplied by 48 weeks a year is$40,000 in cost time plus the 20k. So you spend 60 G's on that program and you make 100. Right? So the getting the ROI from that is really fucking tough. The best people in sales training programs barely attend anything. They will come in, ask a question, and leave. That's it. The people who stick around for the full hour or the two hours and are there four times a week are fucking broke every time. Because what they're missing is that mate, you should be, and I used to tell people you should be out there calling each motherfucker. Like, what are you doing? Are you broke? Yes. What are we doing here? Did I answer your question? Yes, get the fuck out. Right? Like, I'm trying to do what's best for you, man. Like, get out of here, dude. I'll see you in a week. I gave you one thing to fix, go fix it, go do the thing. Right? If I give you two things, you're gonna do both of them poorly, and I can't tell you which one worked anyway. Worst of all, I give you five things to fix. Right? That's like in sales ops. If I try and fix five things in a sales process, right? If I make a change to increase the show-up rate, make a change to the script, I uh like change some of the emails, the text messages, and added an extra call all at once. Let's just say I got 20% more sales. I'll give you a billion dollars if you can tell me which one did it. Or let's just say you change the script and the reminders to try and increase your show-up rate. What what if one of them made it 75% better and one of them made it 50% worse? So you had a net increase to 25%, and you're like, yeah, I'm a fucking gangster, bro. It's like, yeah, but you could have a 75% increase, bro. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, what are you doing? You know, so like I just find that people, you know, and listen, like I come from this from a very privileged background in where like I have done the sales for literally hundreds of businesses, right? Like I've architected hundreds and hundreds of sales processes, right? Like I I think it was like in Sales Sniper, I think we did fuck, we had 57 offers at one time, right? Once, yeah. Like, okay, um, and then at seventh level, like I came in at 20,000 a month, right? Um, and so I kind of engineered that to to grow. Like, I'm not saying it was all me, but like I I was like the the person that was the main catalyst for the growth. So what was the journey?

SPEAKER_00:

So you said you were doing 20 camel up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. 20k a month. And then when I left, it was like two and a half mil. Jesus Christ. Do you know where it's at roughly now? I have no idea. Yeah. I wouldn't have a clue. I've been going for two years. Yeah. Right? You know, but I've done that for time. So like, you know, sales sniper, we got to no ads, we got to two men a month, right? With zero advertising. Um was it was it all dialing? No, dude. It was all like, I'm uh I know how to get leads, it's content. Content's the shit. Right? So like that's an agencies need content, right? Like ads for agencies are a fucking tough one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. It's funny because that was actually similar for our agency. We didn't run ads, and then we went into coaching. The ads are actually a lot easier because we're hitting business owners.

SPEAKER_01:

It's way also the they did the the emotional trust that you hand over with agencies. Like the founders almost have to do the calls. Like I did the sales for sales sniper the entire time. Because like, but we only needed to bring on like so everything was organic inbound and referral, right? So um, and it's all website inquiry. So I was a when we had a huge D DQ funnel, we would probably get a lead a day. Right? Same as dialer, so I haven't done any ads for dialer yet. Uh we're the fastest growing dialers ever existed. We launched in January, we're at 100,000 a month net profit right now, uh in pure software, right? We have 170 businesses on, we have like 700 seats, uh, and we haven't done a single ad. It's all organic content and uh networking and referrals, right? And we probably launched, we're probably getting to MVP right now. Like we launched really early.

SPEAKER_00:

Wait, well, take a step back. So you're at MVP now, but you launched earlier. How does that work? So because it worked, it worked, but it just dialed.

SPEAKER_01:

You couldn't even manually dial. It's just campaign dialing, which is a specific type of dialing, right? And like we have to build everything. So you have to rely on us to build stuff. So it's only now, now we have SMS, right? And now we have like a lot of automations, now we have all this stuff, like the reporting's way better. But like we launched it pre-MVP, knowing that like in January we'll have like the full everything that we plan to have, right? Um, but like it worked, and it worked better than the competition, even though it was like having a really hot girlfriend. It worked really, it worked its ass up, but it was a bit of a fuck around. You know what I mean? Like that's kind of how I described it. Like, this is a much harder software to use, not for the setter, it's way easier, but for the business, it's harder, but it will get a better outcome. DUI was fucking shit or something in the beginning and stuff like that. What's that? Sorry, did you? The UI was okay. It was more like just integrating it was tough. And like, um, like you didn't have any control over it, like you had to ask us for everything. Hey, can I change this? Yep, sweet, be done tomorrow. Do you know what I mean? So you can't go in there and do stuff, but you can now, you know what I mean? And like it's getting better and better. But like I had a call center and we built our own call center. I built that to 300k a month in six weeks, right? Uh, again, like no advertising, like all through networking and content. And then the whole point of that call center was to problem solve the dialer with real leads because no dialer had ever done that.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

So I had a call center for nine months and I sold the call center.

SPEAKER_00:

When you speak about the content, is that content coming from your brand specifically? Yeah. And it's crazy because it's not like you have a huge, huge brand, right? It's like a Hermosy brand. It's like very specific and it's tight. Like it's very niche.

SPEAKER_01:

But but the it like like you like you know content, right? Okay, so like my YouTube is uh 18,000 subscribers. How many views would you expect? So like 600 to 1,000. Uh so I get around 200,000 views a month.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, sorry, I meant per video. Sorry, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I get about three and a half to five thousand per video.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? So um I make like 90 grand a month off YouTube. Um so some from ads, some from membership. I have six and a zero membership, right? Yeah, so that's awesome. Which is again got no sales team, no nothing. It's just completely organic, like you know, so it requires two hours a week from me. But it's like the most comprehensive sales training program on the planet for a hundred bucks a month. So like it's a pretty good deal. It's a pretty good deal. It's pissed some people off for sure, uh, which is fun to watch. Um, and then like my Instagram, but also my demographics is um just like men 25 to 45. It's over 50 US, it's less than 2% India, right? And my in I Instagram is the same. So like my Instagram has got 30,000 followers, but like I get 5,000 views a story. You know what I mean? And like, yeah, and like when I do, I'll do one recruitment post. Like I did one recruitment post, I did one story, I got 200 applications. Right. So like my brand is like it's like got no fake in it because I've never run ads in my name. Right. So what it means is that my 30,000 Instagram is the equivalent of 300,000. Right. If you look at my stats. And like my relevancy score is super high. If you like look at me on like social blade, every single follower is real. They're all in the US, Australia, Canada. Um, like hyper relevant, very engaged following. Right. And my YouTube is like even better. So like I'm in the YouTube partner program. I'm like, I must be the smallest channel by country mile, but I have a super high revenue. Also, my CPM is 65 bucks. Right? Which is crazy, right? So, like, um again, it just shows like I use big words and I've never done my content down, and I've never done a claim. I've never said like, so I'll never go viral ever, but I've been really consistent. So I have like a hardcore group of followers that like that consume my content really well and they'll buy anything I put in front of them. You know what I mean? And so, but I don't sell much. That that's that helps. You know what I mean? So, and everything's passive. I don't do any CTAs or anything. Uh and I give a ton of stuff away for free. So, like, I'll do a course and it'll be like a hundred bucks for an eight-week course in my YouTube, and then I'll give it away for free as soon as it's done. You know what I mean? And then, like, but that just gets more people in and they buy the next one and they fucking stay, you know what I mean? So, like, I sign up about seven people a day to my membership.

SPEAKER_00:

It's interesting, right? Because I was speaking at an event recently and uh like loads people kind of hire pitching, and it's just quite common, right? And I was speaking to my coach, like I have a speaking coach that does a lot of the stuff that I do, and they said, like, if if you're if you're in the this business of having to always push for something on the front end, like what hard CT is, you're just you're constantly dwindling down that trust. And furthermore, if people know what you do, they're gonna want to buy from you if they like you. You don't need to fucking tell them to do it, and they're gonna come there, and and obviously there's different ways to attract your your ICP, but you don't need to say it overtly. They're like, this dude obviously has some way for me to help him. It's just gonna be obvious.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it there's two schools of thought, right? So I think it's like you go wide and then you're gonna you're gonna be able to get buyers from a very small percentage of your pool, or you or you just go deep and then from there, like you know, but that's harder because like it's like way less gratifying. Like I only have 30,000 Instagram subscribers followers. Like, if I if I wanted to, I think I could probably grow pretty quickly. If I said like, if you do this, like me, I make a hundred grand a month, but like I just don't want to do that. I also like really don't want to be famous, like even people knowing me, I don't really like it that much. And I I call my followers retards and stupid all the time, right? And I make fun of them and like my stories are like, hey, you fucking idiots, don't ask me those questions like that. If somebody comments something negative, I'll usually like make fun of them and then post it. Like, so like I think I'm I'm a reluctant influencer if you want to call me that. You know what I mean? I don't so I think it's like so I don't really have the need for any sort of level of uh like acceptance from people, and so like, but then again, that makes certain people gravitate to me much, much more, you know, which is kind of funny. Um uh but yeah, man, like I think content's really cool. I love it. I think everyone should try and build a personal brand. Like it just takes time and it's like if you're consistent and you give out quality information, like you'll you'll grow enough people to where like you can monetize it. And if you keep doing it, mate, like it honestly, if you do it well, like dude, I I could literally never work again and just bang out two YouTube videos a week and I'll make a hundred grand a month. Like I I I never have to work again if I don't want to. I just keep doing videos and the more effort now. My videos take me like five hours to plan at the moment, right? Because I'm well, I'm I'm switching to like a long, I'm gonna go from like the 10 minute to like the 30 to 45 minute format because I feel like it better suits me. Um, like really in depth. Like, okay, let's talk about this, you know? And so my consumers like that. I usually have like a 60% watch time anyway, and it like goes up when it's a longer video. So I've done a couple of like test ones. The one coming out tomorrow is like a 25-minute video on how to write a script that doesn't matter what you're selling or how you sell. It's like the process of writing a script and like how you get the information required to do it and how you structure it and what you should be thinking about. And it's got a document attached to it, and like yada yada yada, right? Like pretty in-depth video. And I'm making an objection handling one, which is probably gonna be like an hour, maybe 70 minutes. And it's like extremely in-depth. Like, I mean, like I've never thought as deeply about objection handling as what I have making the document that I'm making for the video. It is like incredibly comprehensive.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's crazy because that shit doesn't even need that much editing, right? Like, if I wanted to consume that just feedback from you, like if it's on a Loom video, dude, and I'm sitting there going line by line objection handling, it's gonna be it's the content that's most valuable.

SPEAKER_01:

I should see what the content is either on this, right? Yep, uh little Osmo Pocket Pro or on this thing. This is a Mac desktop. This is fucking great. It's just like literally set up because even we're starting my Mac right now, you know. It's just on quick time. I'm moving house at the moment, so uh, we just sold this house, we bought a new one because I want to be with the kid, the kids want to pull. So uh we sold this one, so it's all being packed up right now. That's why it's kind of a bit of a shit show, but um, but yeah, man. So like you know, you don't need to go like high full, high, hi-fi quality content. Like the audio is more important than the video, in my opinion. If the audio is shit, mate, no one's gonna watch it. Um but like this, like right now, I just do QuickTime on most of my videos, and like, dude, it's like the this camera is great. Like it works is just as good. Doesn't do like the you know, fucking background shit, doesn't blur it or whatever. But uh for most of it, and then I just got this so that I can have some different backgrounds, and it's just like the little little Osmo Pocket 3 thing with the little DJI magic thing that it comes with, so it can have good audio, and I can just sit in a little bad boy up anywhere and just bang out a video and go home. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Just keep keep smashing out. Dude, it's funny because for my podcast, because I have separate videos too, I've always just had like really good clean setup, either remote or in person, and it's always about the quality of what's in the fucking video than what's outside it, you know? And I think what's is uh what's good to point, even like wrap up on is like you gotta look at what does your prospect need. Do they want to see fucking flashy things going across their screen 24-7 if they want to buy sales training for someone, or are they gonna want to see, okay, this is the inner workings of what I'll get from someone when I work with them. That's the biggest thing, right? Yeah, I mean, I think like if you're going B2C, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Then like realistically, like, you know, you you're probably gonna have to go a bit wider and you're probably gonna have to do more like sensationalizing type stuff. Uh like if if you want to grow quickly, um, you know, like you look at like Andre on like Andreas Contras, right? Like um he's on Instagram right now, great kid. He's growing at 500 followers a day, totally organically, right? Like that's a that's hyper growth on Instagram, right? Um, but you know, it's very like and he's a great kid. I like him a lot. I'm like involved somewhat in the business, right? Just helping with some directional stuff. Um, but it is like, hey, I'm in I'm in a fucking Ferrari and I'm 18 years old. Like, I'm gonna like I'll teach you how to make the money, right? Sweet, good to go. He's 18, right? He makes plenty of money. Yeah, he's good to go. Right. Um, so but great, really hit the marketplace. But then you look at like from a B2B standpoint, like that probably won't hit, you know. So like um you have to do that. But for a B2B standpoint, like my thesis was always I'll talk enough to where they can decide if I know what I'm talking about. Then when they come to me, it's a laydown. Right. So um from that side of things, but like, you know, um, like mine wouldn't work for a like you know, uh large, like a seventh level. It wouldn't work with my face. Like now, uh maybe because like totally organically I sign up seven people a day into a like a low ticket. So maybe it would um if I did ads, but I think I would have to say things that'd be very off-brand for a full cold audience. But what my content is good at doing is like taking a cold audience and making it warm over time because they just go, oh fuck, like that's a good video. Like the comments on my videos on YouTube were like, Jesus, this is good information. Like that's what it is. And so, like that, that's what generates me the following. But that's like, you know, it's a slow journey. And if you're gonna do ads and try and scale a company to, you know, million dollars a month in fucking four or five months, like it that's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00:

It well, well, you're describing as an ecosystem, man, right? That's exactly kind of what we actually do. We have content on the front end, we have our YouTube content, and then we have our programs, our software, Doiler, people are gonna be using right there at work with you. So it's a perfect way to do it. Now, let's wrap up in this point. I know you need to run, man, but firstly, you're a legend. I really appreciate this. Would love to do something in person, man. I should be coming to Sydney or to Australia soon for a few different events. So I would love to do like a long, a longer session, man, and go really into the into the weeds of maybe more the sales management, the team building side of things too. But uh yeah, you there's a big big quarter ahead and a big 2026 ahead for Doyler and yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it should be fun, man. I'm looking forward to it. It's kind of fun. Like, um, I like growing stuff. I think I find it fun. Same. Um, and when that's all you want to do from it, like that's that's like even better. So me and my business partner, we don't really take any money, we don't need the money from it. So like we're just making decisions based off like what's best for the product and the company and like not requiring any money. So, you know, I make plenty of money from YouTube and stuff like that to where like I don't need anything, you know what I mean? So like we're just gonna grow it the right way, and that's a really fun and very different environment for me. It's where I like to be. But you know, previously it was always like just money, money, money, money, money, money. But like me and Declan don't really give a fuck about it. Neither does Cole. Cole's got more money than what people probably know. You know what I mean? So um, he's got fucking plenty. So uh, right. So like, you know, it's about it's just this is do it the right way. Get it right, and then the product becomes easier. If the product's great, it'll sell itself.

SPEAKER_00:

Always, always, dude.