A Sit Down with Robert Herrera

On the perpetual journey to entrepreneurial leadership and growth, the ability to be nimble is key. Success doesn’t come overnight, but keep the grind going and take the licks. That’s entrepreneurship. 

On this week’s podcast, Rob Herrera, architect, real estate developer, entrepreneur, and founder of The Mill, and Placers President Chris Burkhard, warn that entrepreneurs shouldn’t scale for the sake of scaling, especially during economic uncertainty. Growth, they agree, should be market-driven.

By all reports, small business exploded during the pandemic and carried the economy – more so than big business. That’s enlightening news for entrepreneurs. In fact, big business, which struggled during the public health crisis, experienced such an eye-opening experience, it’s now adopting small business operating models and philosophies. More good news for entrepreneurs!

One of the newer, small business operating models like shared work spaces is a flex solution that contributes to entrepreneurial synergy, networking, and relationship building. “Co-working space is a shared work environment centered around a community of entrepreneurs,” explained Rob, adding that as a human-centered design, co-work spaces bring culture to life while nurturing collaboration and enticing employees to embrace return to office orders.

The Mill, the brainchild of Herrera, is a booming and aesthetically pleasing repurposed workspace with two locations — one in Wilmington, DE, and the other in Springfield, PA. Herrera took both from ghosted, blighted locales to thriving, flex workspaces. This growing trend in innovative community redevelopment that benefits small business operations is spreading nationwide because it navigates entrepreneurs through planned growth and allows for market-driven uncertainty.

Enjoy this episode’s banter while these Delaware OGs target the significance of entrepreneurial discipline and innovative repurposing in communities and its impact on the labor market.

Transcript

Chris Burkhard: 0:12

Welcome to the next episode of the Outside Insights podcast. Outside Insights is a community created to help people close their personal and professional gap and to help folks have the life they want. I'm Chris Burkhard, I blog podcasts and generally create content to get you thinking about yourself. I'm here today with a friend. Someone I've worked with in business, Rob Herrera. Rob is a highly sought after space designer and architect. That's probably an understatement but we'll get into all that. In fact, he was kind enough to develop my core business Placers space and everybody Rob, everybody says over and over again, did you design this Chris? And I'm like, no, it was Rob Herrera. Rob's much more than that. He's been active. I call him a redevelopment force in Wilmington, Delaware. Rob, we have a little bit of a global audience a little following in Germany. So, Wilmington, Delaware is Mid Atlantic East Coast of United States, the largest city in Delaware. I think we're about a million people aren't we? Just about a million people in Delaware and maybe 300,000 in Wilmington, does that sound about right?

Rob Herrera: 1:26

I think it's a little less than that but yes.

Chris Burkhard: 1:28

A little less yes. Well, Rob is a talented redeveloper, an entrepreneur, he's got a lot of projects going on. He's in demand to redevelop throughout Delaware and we'll get into that, but welcome to the show Rob.

Rob Herrera: 1:45

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be

Chris Burkhard: 1:47

I appreciate it. We'll catch up live, right? I here. mean, we did a lot of work pre pandemic together, but kind of just share a little bit about who you are and what you're up to these days. It'll just get us warmed up.

Rob Herrera: 2:02

Yes, so I started my career as an architect at a firm called Perkins Eastman in New York City and I was very fortunate. I kind of got hired after the 2008 bubble right? So, I was the youngest guy standing after sort of the dust settled and I got a lot of really invaluable experience through that. Does that mean you got all the work? Yes of course. My wife will tell you when we were first dating that I worked nights and weekends. I was never around but I feel like I got ten years worth of experience in a few years time.

Chris Burkhard: 2:41

That's very common.

Rob Herrera: 2:42

It's really worth while.

Chris Burkhard: 2:43

It's very common. That's where you got your advantage right? It's very interesting, keep going.

Rob Herrera: 2:50

Yes, we worked on any number of projects. But the big thing was, I came across a company called WeWork when I when I transitioned to another firm called S9 Architecture. And they were working on a retail rollout plan on how they could scale and build quickly. And we did a couple of big flagship buildings for them to kind of set the tone and the architecture vernacular, if you will, of sort of the standards that they were going to take across the globe. And it was kind of a front row seat on how the business model of co working worked. And sometime throughout that process, I caught this entrepreneurial bug and I wanted to try to go do my own thing.

Chris Burkhard: 3:33

What were you crazy?

Rob Herrera: 3:34

I know, I'm absolutely not. Well, even crazier my wife was pregnant with twins when I made the decision to make the leap and leave my very comfortable position to have zero income and a dream. So she was supporting me. We were a one income household while raising twins and a son. As I built up my business, The Mill, which is a coworking company here in Delaware. We're the largest one based out dollar and we're in the middle of scaling. So I built that business and it's done really well. It's been really good for me from a brand perspective, from a sort of honing in on my entrepreneurial skills perspective. You know, I've learned so many things on the fly. I don't know if I would have been as confident going into it as I was back then if I knew what I know now. And then I became a real estate developer in that process. I have three other business partners. And we like multi housing developments but we do any sorts of real estate development from industrial all the way through to multi housing. And that's kind of where we stand today and I'm really passionate about it, but my biggest thing, it seems scattered I'm all over the place but I really like repurposing and modernizing sort of outdated buildings and spaces and kind of particularly in downtown's.

Chris Burkhard: 4:54

When did you figure out that you had architectural tendencies or a knack for space? Or where did that happen for you? Was it was a built through college or did you always know you're heading there?

Rob Herrera: 5:11

You know, my mom would say, I always knew I was heading there. I had a really good shop class that transitioned into a drafting class in high school. And the sort of a plug for my high school, Caesar Rodney in Camden, Delaware. And I had a teacher, Mr. Pieshala, who would just like completely destroy my drawings like as if they, you know wanted to step up the game a little bit. And he got me sort of thinking about space and thinking about being an architect and the rest of his history. And that would have been my sophomore year of high school so that was pretty early on that I got really into it.

Chris Burkhard: 5:45

So the only thing I got from shop class was that great block lettering. So I think there must have been some nature in there and obviously good mentoring along the way. You know, in hearing you talk about the entrepreneurial bug, I don't know anybody that can do it without the right support network at home. You know, that's the most difficult thing because kind of the biggest part of the entrepreneurial stories of folks that are on is it seems like, Rob, whenever you read an article it's like, someone was an instantaneous success. And that's the furthest from the truth right? You know, it's like six years, eight years, ten years. And I think it's helpful when people realize that, you know you and I ate ramen noodles too or whatever our version of was that path.

Rob Herrera: 6:36

Absolutely, it's definitely a grind. I'll steal a friends phrase that I've like been a ten year overnight success, right? The Mill is about seven years old now as new as it feels. but I've been fortunate timeframe. But we've definitely taken our lickings like there's been some hard years with some good years mixed in there. But that's entrepreneurship, you know, you get into this thinking that you're going to be wildly successful, and all your dreams are going to come true. And you don't realize that when you're starting a business, all of the different hats that you have to wear, and it's very rarely the hat you want to wear, you know?

Chris Burkhard: 7:18

There's a whole conversation in there about like, I often thought success, some years, Rob was being able to give up one thing, or three things that I didn't want to do or wasn't very good at. Like that was year three was when I could give up marketing or give up bookkeeping or not have to do it. So yeah, if we all look back, we probably wouldn't take the risks we took and we all can't figure out how we navigated through all those risks and are still standing.

Rob Herrera: 7:51

That's exactly right. I jokingly say you've got to be just the right blend of competent enough getting through something but dumb enough to keep going, right? And you've got to have that blend of those two things, and just keeping bulldozing your way through things.

Chris Burkhard: 8:05

And you also have to have the energy to realize that the problems are your own and you should be excited by that, right? You know, I think hearing you use the words we work, I have to just ask, what's your craziest we work story? I think everybody expects that question. We'll give him one question, right but what was any interesting stories of your interactions?

Rob Herrera: 8:30

There was a lot and there all odd, and a lot of it crude. It was a very interesting culture of a company of like the summer camp they did and the drinking in the partying. I've been in some of the famous tequila meetings, which were the ownership was, you know, making very serious, you know, tens of million dollar decisions while you know, we're on bottle number two.

Chris Burkhard: 8:57

Wow. So I asked a light question and I got a really serious answer. That's probably not good advice on how to run a business.

Rob Herrera: 9:06

Not at all and in hindsight, it's easy to say how well it's doing but when I left them they were at their height. But one of the craziest stories is and it's not talked about a lot in a lot of the documentaries missed. A lot of this was there was one night late at we work where three foreigners broke into WeWork and we're trying to steal sort of corporate secrets, which here's the big thing. There's none right? There wasn't like any secret sauce.

Chris Burkhard: 9:37

They were on the whiteboard.

Rob Herrera: 9:38

Yes, but they had like zip drives and a contractor Pasquale who kind of ran the construction role at that time, jumped on the back of one of the guys and like the FBI was called and it was a whole sort of to do and I think they they linked the gentleman to Alibaba or or one of those companies which is interesting because there's a soft bank tie there.

Chris Burkhard: 10:04

To both organizations, interesting.

Rob Herrera: 10:06

It was one of those things like stuff like that would happen and you would be like, what is going on? Like it's a bunch of kids. What do you steal their info from? Like,

Chris Burkhard: 10:15

I guess it's to have such a brash vision, it's not..... whether you're on tequila or not, I mean, I never had the guts to think like that or to disrupt like that, or what have you. In the end, you've got to be a good leader. And, you know, it all comes out in the wash, no matter how much money you have, I think. I'm sure you'd agree with that. So shifting to more relevant stuff, it seems like over the last three years, and you know, obviously, the pandemic has just wreaked havoc on a lot. But I'm curious as to how that's impacted you, and how folks use space and use co working space. And I think we should also give you an opportunity to talk, I'm not sure everybody gets exactly what you know, the benefits of co working in terms of building relationships and networking and synergy. So let me give you a little bit of space to kind of cover all that.

Rob Herrera: 11:12

Yes, so coworking just to oversimplify it at the start is this is a shared work environment centered around a community of entrepreneurs, right. So that translates into, you just rent your office, but you have all these shared conference rooms and podcast suites and pantry areas that might be nicer than if you went out and got it on your own. Then if you do it, right, the math works out. But it's more cost effective to build a little team in there than it is to go out and have to rent a space with your own bathrooms and your own conference rooms, and your own office suites and everything else. If we get our numbers, right, it should be about a wash. The added benefit of being in a co workspace is the community. So to touch on your first question. When the pandemic hit, all of the PPP loans are coming about and it was just a messy timeframe of like, I don't know if you remember, it was just confusing. And it was a lot of paper pushing, a lot of stress, not not everybody had an accountant and all accountants were super busy. So it was hard to get their attention on your small company.

Chris Burkhard: 12:14

There was a lot of Sunday night conference calls, and you didn't know if anything was going to happen. And your bank decided they weren't servicing your size, and you had to find a new relationship. So yes, messy is at least in all caps, right? What a disaster.

Rob Herrera: 12:35

Yes and the fence kept changing the regs on the fly where like, you've got to do this by this date, or it would slide and it would change. And it was good just to have entrepreneurs around you going through the same thing, right? Like versus being imagine if you had your own space, you'd be really alone. So there was a lot. That's one example. But that's a really hyper, sort of intense example of entrepreneurs helping each other and sort of figuring out and we kind of got. I personally called so many people, Mill members throughout that timeframe, just one on one calls, which which got to the depressing after a while. My wife asked me to stop because everybody was so confused. A lot of our businesses, this was everything to them right?

Chris Burkhard: 13:15

Rob, all you could do was keep having conversations, right? Is the positive thing to do was to keep connecting and to piece it together. That's interesting. I imagine it was a common bond. I immediately called five competitors and started an exchange group that we still meet on today. The six of us had never been on a phone call, you know, twenty years of business or what have you. I knew him individually, but it's funny how that time brought us together. And I think it's one of the best things we do and we share stuff and get through things and vendors. And so it's an interesting thing.

Rob Herrera: 13:52

That's really interesting. And I think that your point right there my philosophy around businesses, you know, like in the seventies and eighties it was all about corporate IP and closing down walls and hiding away. And I think a lot of the sort of modern era in the post 2000's is about collaboration, right? Like nothing exciting happens in isolation. And I think when you have people who have shared interests, so much other exciting things come out of that. And I think that that's kind of an evolving and changing piece of being a business owner, which I'm excited by which I I find I thrive on. I love the conversation. I love hearing about other people's challenges. I love giving my two cents and hearing what people think about my issues that I'm dealing with,

Chris Burkhard: 14:33

You know, I think the world moves too fast you know. and is too complex. Have you ever tried to protect IP? I have a little bit. I have a trademark and service mark. It's so subtle and difficult to enforce and do you really want to enforce something that someone's you know, using in a sentence or in an article? You know, so I think you're right collaboration is the key because I'm not sure any of this is individually ours any longer, you know? It's hard to protect it that way.

Rob Herrera: 15:07

Absolutely. I one hundred percent agree with that. And I think the best thing to do is to keep evolving your product, keep getting better at you use person. The other thing I love about being entrepreneur and a small business owners that it's like you're on this perpetual path of growth, right? Like your challenges change and evolve, as your company grows, you have to change as a leader, you have to change as a, as a person, you have to change as a manager. And I think you have to stay nimble and continually change which keeps me on my toes and keeps me kind of excited. No year since I started this journey about seven to eight years ago, no year had the same challenges. Everything was totally different and I think I'm becoming well rounded because of all the craziness.

Chris Burkhard: 15:48

Well, it's evident. I heard it described this way, it's called the second decision. The first decision is when you start the business. The second is when you have to be president of that thing, and be a little less entrepreneurial, and figure out how to scale it. And you know, not to overly professionalize it, but you've got to operate differently than the day you start the business.

Rob Herrera: 16:08

I'm having that challenge now of implementing processes so that I can handle scaling, but not lose the sort of culture that I want to keep. And I'm in that middle ground now both of my real estate company with The Mill, which is growing as well. So it was great when it was one location. I'm there every day but now I can't be everywhere at once.

Chris Burkhard: 16:28

If you ever want to talk about that, scaling is what I do for my business and with friends. And I get it but your point, if I can, the culture piece. I think I remember the first time I met you is I said something like, you know, every great culture company I knew that we're customers or there's a great book Mavericks in Business. And I was blessed to do business with like ING, their a Delaware company, a Dutch company and others. And I was always so impressed with their space, and the impact it had. But as I got to know the leaders in those businesses, they talked about, well, we started in a basic you know vanilla shell too. And so I don't know, you know, talk a little bit just about how space and culture fit. And you know, I'm not sure I'm asking the right question, other than that, what you did in my space is bring our culture a lot to life in an incredible way. I had a great culture but now people talk about what it's like to be there.

Rob Herrera: 17:36

Yes, therein lies my favorite thing in the world to work on, you know and I like it to be very indifferent for the company. And a lot of that comes from leadership teams of the kind of environment they want to be in. And really I'm a big believer that the environments that we spend our time in really do shape us. And they really do shape how we interact, they shape how we collaborate, they shape how we get work done or not get done. And one of the exciting things coming out of this pandemic with office space worlds all over the place, you're really seeing companies take a look at that. They're really fine tuning the space that they want to be in because they want to attract their employees to come in because they don't need to work in the office twenty four seven.

Chris Burkhard: 18:26

The offsite is the new office.

Rob Herrera: 18:29

Right, the new offsite is the new office and that office better be pretty nice because you want to entice your employees to want to be there to want to collaborate, to want to learn, to want to work together. So I think there's some principles that are, and I like human centered design, which there's principles of spacing and things that the good designer picks up over time. And I'm fortunate to work with so many great designers that I've picked up on over the years. But the other piece is how do you pick up on the vibes of what the company wants to portray? I remember you wanting, if I recall you wanted a reading nook in sort of a lounge fields you came in that was very welcoming and sort of like a living room and less like a sterile office environment. And that right there, if you nail that right, does so many so many things to shape a culture and a community. You also had a gym in the old space. I don't know if you do in the new space but like having those sorts of things. They seem like simple amenities but they do kind of steer a culture of an energetic group that sort of learns together and evolves together. I think that not everybody's like that. It's fun when you can set yourself apart in that way. Those are two simple things and a lot more nuance to what you can do to design space for a company culture. But that's something I really enjoy as you probably can tell by now.

Chris Burkhard: 19:47

I think what I'm reminded of, I know why you're a success. Your process of consulting to figure out how I wanted the lobby or how the gym was going to be, first of all, demonstrated expertise, right? You knew what you're talking about from a human centered space design and all the other principles, but also you connected your expertise to kind of what our wants and needs were. And just that process of doing business that way, you know, it's hard not to deliver what the customer wants, if you follow that. So it was kind of neat. How do you see I mean, there's some obvious things, but I've got an expert here. How has the pandemic shaped what's going on with space? And if you prefer to answer that in whatever way you'd like, go for it, but sort of just getting out the fact that, hey, I know, everybody went from ten thousand down to three or a million down to a half million. But what's happening you know, next? You know now that people are trying to live with that hybrid environment what are they learning from that? And that's really hard.

Rob Herrera: 20:55

I think they're learning that hybrid is here to That's an exciting development. And just the more stay. But I think they're learning just kind of what we macro scale, my personal belief that the pandemic accelerated a were touching on that office space is more than just a place lot of trends that we're already starting, like remote work and to put your head down, put your headphones on and work, right. I think office spaces are specifically for coming into collaborate now. Coming into work on ideas and problems and solutions. And you're seeing it all across the country where stuff, but just completely put it front and center now. I think people are revamping and yet downsizing, but they're getting the hybrid model is going to be here to stay. It's hard, we're such an IP culture, right? We're such an innovative culture that I believe that you got to do that together with people. But I more bang for their buck, where they're thinking of hot desks think we're gonna have flexible work schedules built around lifestyles, which I think so exciting, citing prospect. And I think that the office world is more nuanced of like again, I'm that were that they can share space with. They're thinking a real estate developer. I think that real estate developers are going to need to evolve, where they're going to need to sort of about collaborative huddle rooms. And, again, trying to understand the human centered design. Kind of like what I'm talking about, build spaces that people want to be in because I nail that company culture and create an environment that's so don't think it's going to continue where companies want to sign ten year leases because it's so and that fits into coworking, too. It's so erratic and hard to predict what the exciting that people want to come to like, you don't want to world's gonna look like in ten years these days. Not even Dupont, the company that our state was built around knows where they're going to be in ten years these days. They used to force people into the office. be a little bit more predictive with with their growth modeling.

Chris Burkhard: 22:48

But there's such a truth in that. You know, big businesses admire small businesses for their their nimbleness, their flexibility, their ability to change locations, and you know in a month. But we all admire big business for their stability and security, but it doesn't really exist anymore. So I do think big businesses adopting more small business ways of operating. But I'm curious, I obviously know very little about real estate development, but I think I heard you say that real estate development has got to change its business model, be less long term, be less cookie cutter be more custom? And obviously, in design, design space that people want.

Rob Herrera: 23:34

Yes, and I think what I'm touching on is more on the office space. There's so many different asset classes, like industrials, coming back in a big way into the United States that will be automated and exciting. But that'll be built for the long term in the long haul.

Chris Burkhard: 23:51

I think residential. It has to be, right?

Rob Herrera: 23:53

Right. And I think people talk about residential changing so much, I think people have certain needs to live a certain way. And I don't think that that, again, if you do the human scale piece right, I don't think it's going to drastically change. I think we have certain spatial needs that the markets hitting, and I think that there's a good long term projection there. I think it's more around the office space that just like you do to touch on multi housing where we build an amenity package with a pool and a fitness center, and all these other things. I think that that'll be more commonplace for office buildings where a developer is going to build a pool and a gym, and all the sort of amenities that are shared amongst all the offsets even more particularly in larger buildings. And then the human centered design of like, spatially just knowing the size of what offices, what people like in office space, if you nail that you're gonna get tenants to move in. I just think people are not excited about longer term leases, I think they're going to become shorter term. Now, it's not every case. I mean, the world will get back to normal to a degree I just think we're gonna see a lot more that. These full turnkey, maybe not branded co working spaces but for filling out spaces trying to predict what companies want to land them.

Chris Burkhard: 25:05

It makes a lot of sense. So you're juggling a lot of balls. Where do you spend most of your time these days, in design or leading your company and a mix of both?

Rob Herrera: 25:18

A mix of both, I never want to stray too far. I have wonderful real estate partners that are really good at finance really good at construction. So I don't have to go down in the weeds too much on those tiers. Every once in a while, I'll weigh in on that part of the business. But I really do like sort of envisioning and designing the very front end of a project, setting the vision and tone, and then pulling the team together to get that built. Whether that's the middle, whether that's a new restaurant, whether that's a liquor store or a twenty two acre development we're doing down in Seaford. I like to be at the front end kind of steering the vision, getting the tone right, setting the goals of the project and then I sort of get out and go to the next thing.

Chris Burkhard: 26:02

So, you've got a good team around you. So in talking about The Mill, it started with redevelopment of a large office building in downtown Wilmingto., It moved into more of a suburban thing and now you're referencing a more rural part of the state that had a shopping center that you're going to redevelop the next few years. How big will The Mill get or is that going to be very market driven?

Rob Herrera: 26:28

That's going to be market driven. I'm not going to rush to just scale for the sake of scaling kind of like my predecessors. But I want to assess the market and see how The Mill can fit into that market. What we'll do differently for each one, we're close to moving into a project in Pittsburgh, which will be exciting. I like that market a lot.

Chris Burkhard: 26:50

It's a good town.

Rob Herrera: 26:51

Seaford's got a population of and we mentioned Wilmington's a little under three hundred thousand, probably closer to two hundred I think. But Seaford's eight to nine thousand. In The Mill we're gonna partner with Del Tech and hopefully a couple of four year degree programs and build a little innovation district. And it's much more of a placemaking project of like, if you build it they will come type model. There's a big need for health care workers there. So we're working through some healthcare workforce programming through Deltech and a few other potential partners which which haven't signed on yet, so I can't go down that path.

Chris Burkhard: 27:29

Of course.

Rob Herrera: 27:30

But then the middle is going to be there and kind of leverage as this great kind of innovation cultivator. So in that case, the middle is kind of playing as the glue between a couple institutions and kind of break down the barriers to make sure everybody kind of collaborates and are connecting in the right way.

Chris Burkhard: 27:45

So I don't know. I am going to see if I got my reaction right. I saw it and I live in Sussex County. So I live on the eastern side of Sussex County. I live by the beaches and so I saw it and I went from governor's crazy, Rob's lost his mind to hold on a second. Seaford's on a tipping point. I see some other projects that are ongoing there. I know of a few entrepreneurs that have invested in some warehouse or industrial space and are doing redevelopment. So, I have an office in Sussex County and I started to think I will be a Mill customer when you build it because when we're over there, my sales rep or my recruiter or whatever, has to drive all the way you know, back to Milford. So it's a really interesting thing that you're going to build it and we will come. It's really obvious in that regard.

Rob Herrera: 28:41

It's really centrally located from a logistics standpoint, in the heart of the whole Delmarva Peninsula. And I think our workforce program around two fields, one health care to light industrial use with OSHA training and welding and things. But we're already seeing a lot of industrial pickup in the United States now, post pandemic. Again, another trend that was started that's just really picked up now. And I think, from my little bit of experience with Delaware Prosperity Partnership, which I sit on the board of, I'm really proud of the work they've done there. We're seeing so many industrial users want to come back to areas like that. And if you can marry it with a two year workforce program, that's really what the employers are looking for and it's exciting. I mean, you know that space pretty well, but I think of like workforce and how to steer, but I think there'll be a big industrial push in the next ten years in the United States and that's one thing our company, it's not something that I specialize in. I like the higher design stuff, but we've done an industrial project in South Dallas, Texas, which has been really good for us and we've got an appetite to do more. Where that project was around three hundred acres and it's just been ballooning. We've gotten a lot of interest, but we're, we're looking to do a few more industrial projects around Sussex County as well.

Chris Burkhard: 30:02

It's interesting, you talked about the prosperity partnership. I'm talking to Charles tomorrow, the idea of Placers you know, thinking through the workforce and the demographics and some of those pieces. But I do agree with you with manufacturing being relocated. You know, the demographics are such that I think we're going to have a tight labor market through 2031. Even if there's a small our recession. You know, we're we're seeing some layoffs, we're seeing people, you know, impacted, they're getting jobs relatively quickly. But there's still a very small amount of folks that are not working that want to work. Well when you get into that, what you're talking about, I mean, obviously, the ability or ability to retrain and get people deployed in manufacturing is going to be a big push and your partners will

Rob Herrera: 30:58

Yes. It's gonna be the challenge of the next decade be busy. for the United States I think.

Chris Burkhard: 31:06

Are we talking about the things you want to talk about or do you want to take it in a different direction? I always say, you know, you're an expert in a few things. What would you like to teach sixty thousand people Rob? Here to share a message or a highlight or a lesson learned? What would you like to share?

Rob Herrera: 31:24

Nothing to touch on which is not as sexy and pretty with the mess of the construction industry has been hard on us. That's been one of the things that take a lot of my focus and time. When you talk to the laborer, I was gonna bring that up that the construction trades have been really, really tough these last two years. And again on relationships, we were able to stay afloat just based on handshakes and doing what we said we would do and follow through on things. And I think it's getting back to a world of relationships are really important again.

Chris Burkhard: 31:52

You know, it's interesting that you choose that because I do this thought that like business is like a lake, and who's in that lake with you, who are your suppliers and friends and relationships that you're going to cultivate and take care of? Because I think if they don't know what you're trying to get done, and they don't believe in what you're trying to build, they'll go someplace else. And we've been able to pull through by having you know, great relationships, it says a lot. But construction has been just short of a disaster. I think it's probably the most popular call we get andI'll put it this way, there just isn't the supply. You're looking for a certain kind of welder or a certain kind of carpenter. There just simply are not enough of them, no matter how you slice it when there's a run up in construction. I live at the beaches, you can't get anybody to put a fence up or come put a door in. You can wait nine months. So, you know it's a relative thing. I don't know if you thought about it but that's the strength of your business model. The fact that you've got key relationships where people react to you and respect what you're doing and want to do the work because I assume they like the work and they're going to be paid on time, that that's a good thing.

Rob Herrera: 33:24

Yes and something that we want to continue. It's not easy when you have so many projects going on to stay on top of all your different subcontractors. We certainly do our best to do that. And I think that that is going to be more important than ever. As that labor market tightens up to your point, Chris. And I don't see an end in sight of that just suddenly getting better.

Chris Burkhard: 33:47

So as an entrepreneur, in demand doing this stuff, have you learned any lessons of how to be super dad, super president you know a super human? Any life hack stuff that gets you through your day?

Rob Herrera: 34:07

Well, there's a couple of things that I do. To be super dad, you touched on that. That's one of my biggest challenges is, there's so many things in the day that I actually have to walk away from to make sure I come home and I am a dad. And that's tough to shut off sometimes to be frank, because I'm like, you know just another half hour or just another hour and I'm done this thing that I really wanted to get done.

Chris Burkhard: 34:30

But that discipline Rob, you know, not to interrupt you but there's a famous picture. A drawing of my son when he was three and there was a picture of his family that was his mom, his sister and the dog and the cat. I wasn't in it.

Rob Herrera: 34:50

Oh, wow.

Chris Burkhard: 34:51

I was starting a business and you know, generationally I'm a decade or so older than you but back in the day you know, well that was my response and sometimes I do have regrets. I made it up later in my thirties. But I respect your discipline, it'll be there.

Rob Herrera: 35:09

It's tough and for me, I've done a good job I think showing up and being a father, but there's photos I look atthe kids. and I'm like, I don't remember being next, just my head was somewhere else at the time. So on top of that, being disciplined to actually be present when you do show up. Because again, I'm juggling multiple companies and multiple different things and it's really hard to switch off and give your kids the time they need. But that's something that the pandemic has been a blessing. Where I really doubled down on my family and spent a lot of time with them which I'll never regret. And I think that we've gotten in some really good habits post pandemic. Like making sure for instance, I get home every day for dinner no matter what without fail. I might go back and work like from my home office where I'm talking to you out of now, but I kind of make that almost religiously now. Every day I get home for dinner. And the other thing too is a big life hack, those of you don't understand the architecture profession, there's this culture that you work late nights and work weekends and stuff, as I mentioned.

Chris Burkhard: 36:14

I didn't realize that. Where's that come from?

Rob Herrera: 36:17

You know and they don't pay well, too. So architects don't get paid a lot of money. If you look the average pay of an architect, it's fairly low because they've been squeezed. The evolution of the real estate developers are relatively hundred year old newish thing. Companies to hire architects to be the specialists that would build buildings. And now architects are designers that have to become specialized. They're becoming more and more specialized in their fields. But there's just this culture of particularly like in the flashy larger firms like I worked for that you got to put in your time put in your dues and work these crazy hours, which is fine. I don't regret the time that I did with that but it took me years to retool myself and I find that I'm way more productive. And they would stay late because the boss would see you stay late after hours. So like, I'm

Chris Burkhard: 37:07

walking the halls, walking the

Rob Herrera: 37:08

Walk in the halls, a human, the real, who are the real guys? Who are going to be the next leaders of this company? You can walk the halls and see everybody, right? Well, I found and it took me years to shake that mentality. I'm wildly more productive in the mornings and so my wife will handle the kids first thing which has been life changing for my productivity. My wife will handle the mornings, just completely deal with kids and drop off in the chaos that comes with drop off and kids and breakfast and all of that.

Chris Burkhard: 37:35

Sure.

Rob Herrera: 37:36

I get up and I get out most days even before they're awake. And it's a sacrifice. But that's a chaotic morning but then I start the morning on my time at my speed with getting honed in on what I want to work on. But then again, I draw a hard line around five o'clock and I get home and then that's where I pick up and can really step in. And if I'm on a deadline, I'll just get up earlier that next morning. There's been mornings that I get up at 4am. But I'm way more productive then than the late nights and then that has residual sort of exhausting repercussions after the fact. That's a little nuanced thing but that's something that I've learned in the last few years that have really changed my life for the better, where I'm a better family man because of it. And I am way more productive in the mornings.

Chris Burkhard: 38:21

So Rob, it's not as obscure as you think. Most people go to the office and they mimic what they see around them, not realizing they're better in the morning. Hey, it's our life, we decide how we live it right, especially an entrepreneur. It's one of few things we have is choices, right? So I totally get it and I think that's what people are looking for is like how can they have it all and you know, if you're there for dinner and it just makes total sense. It took me a million years to figure that stuff out because I worked for my dad, all I ever knew he did was work. Didn't matter if it was 7am or 7pm or Saturday. You know, if I was going to keep up with him, we just worked. I was forty years old years old before I figured I could have my own opinion about how and when I was going to work, you know? It's funny how we mimic that stuff.

Rob Herrera: 39:16

Yes, there's something to that and I'm really happy with the change. And also like mornings, if you get in right when everybody else gets in, you're just reacting all day. And I really intentionally wanted to steer my career and make my choices. And getting in early kind of lets me get organized before the world kind of comes at me.

Chris Burkhard: 39:35

That saying there's a difference between action and results, you know? As leaders you could spend all day long doing what other people need to get done versus what you need to get done.

Rob Herrera: 39:48

And I really have gone down that path for years and I'm pretty familiar with where I'm just putting out fires and dealing with everybody's issues but my own. And I've been better about not doing that as much.

Chris Burkhard: 39:59

So I've got a final question, before we kind of summarize, where you'd like to and it's sort of a sharpen the saw question. How do you sharpen the saw? How do you learn? What do you consume? What are your favorite books? Anything along those lines.

Rob Herrera: 40:18

I'm an obsessive reader and I hand it out to staff a lot. I think that for me being an entrepreneur is being on that perpetual growth cycle, I've always wanted to grow and change. And I like reading books and I specifically like paperback or just hard paper product not on a device where there's so many distractions. So, that's how I kind of grow my career and what am I reading now? I'm reading Ray Dalio's The Changing World Order. It's pretty interesting but I always have something good. Yes, he posted on that but I bought his book, that's been pretty good.

Chris Burkhard: 40:59

I'll tell you what, the man writes a lot of words but that is an interesting story.

Rob Herrera: 41:03

It is and just the fascination of comparing and looking at the history of other nations of how they ebbed and flowed. And the importance of trade in our everyday lives and stuff that we don't particularly see. But anyway, it's not necessarily one of my favorites. There's just too many but I just always have a book in hand. But I'm working my way through. And sometimes I don't always get to apply it but I think that that's not my focus, too, I think in an age of social media and everything everybody's trying to get to your eyeballs.

Chris Burkhard: 41:39

I agree with that.

Rob Herrera: 41:40

Having a book and just focusing on it helps my sort of ADD and ability to focus and finish tasks. And that's one thing I'm worried about with my staff I have I have a lot of young staff members and it's not their fault. But the distractions that t they get inundated with just by the nature of what life's like these days. And it's not good for their health, it's not just not good for me, for their productivity, it's also not good for their well being long term. And that's another challenge we're going to face over the next ten years.

Chris Burkhard: 42:10

I don't know if they realize it's a choice, you know?

Rob Herrera: 42:13

Yes, because when somebody reaches out to you, and you got to get back to him right away.

Chris Burkhard: 42:17

Exactly.

Rob Herrera: 42:18

The one thing young professionals are good at is they're very responsive, you know and they're quick at replying back. And, to that point to in terms of, and to answer your question reading is my secret of how I like to evolve and change. And I'm always thinking through what I could be doing better and self assessing, I do a personal business plan every year that leads into some of the books and some of the things that I want to do that year. And for instance, like I took an Excel course last month but I'm not an Excel guy. But it's a big part of the real estate development industry. And I took a course few months back, but that was unique because it's part of my end your goals of wanting to get better at building a pro forma on my own and not just leaning on my partners. But so yes, I'm always trying to do something different, always trying to grow even in my hobbies or getting better. We have a property we're working on planting some vegetable gardens and things on and I like to read about it before I go and dive in and do it. And I think that that is another form of growth.

Chris Burkhard: 43:23

Rob, I'm surprised that some situations like a lot of people, I don't know, it's like a compass and a map. They don't know who they are and they don't know where they are. So they wonder why it's hard to figure out like, I want to learn to do a vegetable garden, I want to learn to read. So you're way ahead.

Rob Herrera: 43:42

I appreciate that.

Chris Burkhard: 43:43

Way ahead.

Rob Herrera: 43:44

I've been blessed in so many ways. I am living a very wealthy life, irrespective of the wealth because again to your point, the choices that I've made over the years it's a lot of work.

Chris Burkhard: 43:58

It's an abundance, right? There's abundance and it seems as the more you give the more you get. Anything you want to bring it home with, we'll we'll wrap up on your last words. No pressure or anything holy man he's making me end his damn show, that's no fun.

Rob Herrera: 44:17

Yes, well all I'll say is I'm excited about the one thing, I'll say with my career, what I'll do next I'm certain that the next ten years will look nothing like the previous ten years in terms of my career and what I've done. And I have no idea where I'll end up, what I'll be involved in but but I'm excited for the challenges. I hope it's nothing like what I've done the last ten years. I hope it's different.

Chris Burkhard: 44:39

And I'm sure it will be the world moves too fast and you're too interested in different things. You know, as you get your next big project going perhaps we'll have you back for a follow up to hear how it's going. Would you be up for that?

Rob Herrera: 44:52

That would be great. Yes, I would love to touch on the secret innovation center that we're building.

Chris Burkhard: 44:56

I look forward to that. Thank you