Prioritize Your Passions: Tech Leader to Creative Visionary. A Sit Down With Nick Wilkinson

In this episode Outside Insights, I sat down with Nick Wilkinson, Founder and CEO of Wilkinson Advisory services. Prior to launching his own consulting firm, Wilkinson built a successful career spanning various industries and has collected multiple hats over the years, including CEO, entrepreneur, author, and filmmaker – more on that later.

Nick and I go way back. I first met Nick on the board of a non-profit when Nick was running a global IT firm. I was a young upstart on that board and I still recall the many business and life lessons I absorbed from him and many years later applied when I chaired the same organization.

In true Outside Insights fashion, we discussed Nick’s leadership philosophy, which he explains was shaped by his military background. Nick emphasized the value of servant leadership, where success is achieved through empowering and supporting others. This is a topic you know I’m already passionate about.

I always love catching up with Nick and not just because of his extensive leadership experience and stories of triumph and failures that we toss back and forth. No, what I enjoy most is Nick’s passion and the fact that he truly is a man of many talents.

Not many corporate CEOs can say they’ve also dabbled in scriptwriting and directing – but Nick can. During this episode of Outside Insights, we actually discussed one of Nick’s most exciting milestones yet, the launch of his short film, “The Fast Track Program”.

Inspired by his corporate career, the film encapsulates Nick’s personal anecdotes and lessons learned in a 12-minute story. “The Fast Track Program” is currently being submitted to film festivals, with upcoming plans for a public release.

With the little free time he has left, Nick cultivates his passion for cooking and soccer. In fact, his next creative endeavor, “Olde Boys,” is a soccer-related comedy centered around an old guys’ team from Pennsylvania. This reminds me of my own “old boys” hiking group, the Misfits.

I’m so excited to bring Nick’s story to you all today because it illustrates that your job is only one facet of life. You need to make sure to grow in other areas, too. You gravitate towards your passion for a reason – don’t ignore that call!

Until next time, friends.

Chris

Transcript

Chris Burkhard: 0:23

That music was brought to you and played by Steve Miller, my brother in law and produced by Laney Miller, my niece. Our Outside Insights guest, Nick Wilkinson has led a diverse career across technology, business and creative pursuits. Nick boasts over thirty years of experience in the tech sector. He has served in executive roles at major corporations like Computer Sciences Corporation, as well as led many private equity backed software companies as CEO and president. He's got a very diverse background spans time and the British Royal Air Force. He's worked across multiple continents, multiple industries. And I think I'm excited to talk about leadership and transformation, perhaps some tech. In recent years, Nick has delved into creative projects, including writing novels and producing films. He joins us today to discuss what I think is a remarkable journey and I just want to welcome you to the show, Nick. We had a lot of fun getting ready to prep for this. But I'm excited to have you as a guest today.

Nick Wilkinson: 1:30

All right, thank you Chris and thanks for all those kind words. You know, when you kind of write it down, in retrospect, it just sounds like you've done a lot. I've done a lot of things, but you are only ever doing one of them at once so you don't tend to necessarily notice.

Chris Burkhard: 1:45

You know, and it's funny. When I looked at it, you look at things. I mean, it certainly is diverse, it certainly is global, you certainly have done different things. So it's hard not to brag on those things a little bit. So, about four years ago, I started this podcast Outside Insights because I was hearing from customers, I've had a blog for about ten years. For folks who are really interested in closing their personal and professional gaps. I'm in staffing. I'm an entrepreneurial coach, advisor as you are. So the topic was always about, I don't have the life I want, I'm not going to where I want to go. So during the pandemic, which a lot of folks I think had a spark of creativity, I just started to invite successful people, however you define success, and talking about their lessons learned, the mistakes they've made, their journeys has proven to make us mere mortals and folks are enjoying that storytelling, and it gives an opportunity for them to apply our lessons to their life. So that's a bit of the jist to get us started. You've worn all these hats over the years CEO, President, VP and big businesses, now advisor, entrepreneur, author, and of course more on the creative. What excites you about what you're working on today? And you know, it's a balancing act of business and creative but what's your news today?

Nick Wilkinson: 3:12

I think the most exciting thing about my time at the moment is everything I'm doing is quite new. And I've always tried to pursue things that stretch me and you know, pursue the lifelong learning objective. And in both of my main activities, the creative side on the on script writing and directing. And on the business advisory side, I'm faced with new things and new experiences and meet new people on on a day to day basis. So that keeps me going. I've never really been one to sit still and kind of, you know, soak up the sunshine, even when I'm on holiday I don't do that. So the fun part at the moment is the new experiences. On the film side of things it has been it has been a journey and you know, you kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince and all that. And as I've said to people, I'm enjoying every minute of it, even when I'm not enjoying every minute of it, because it's all new experiences. Similarly, on the advisory side, you know, working with different customers in different circumstances, different stages in their company's development, different backgrounds that they bring into it. Oftentimes I work with young entrepreneurs in the early stages of their companies, and you learn about a new tool or you learn about a new approach that you've not come across. So I say I learned as much from those experiences as they learned from me. So I think a common factor of things that I I enjoy are new experiences and getting involved in new projects.

Chris Burkhard: 4:55

So folks, I should share that Nick is across the pond. There's a few hours between us, so I don't think that that glitches is, as is evident. But if it is, those are the Gremlins of the internet, Nick and I find that they make it charming, but we'll be able to clean that up and adjust those things. So it's all good. So, in hearing you kind of described that, I was curious who the frogs and who the princes are. But we can get into that to find out exactly who that is. But you've also been writing and in my own head, I thought you were writing because it was released from corporate America, but that writing has evolved. Care to talk about that a touch?

Nick Wilkinson: 5:38

Yes, certainly that was the genesis of it. I think when you and I first discussed it I had written throughout my career in in your big corporate world, whenever I'd come across something that I found particularly amusing or disappointing, or some show of hubris, or things that I just thought touched me in some way, I would kind of make a little note of them and almost entertain myself and relieve stress by having a quiet giggle about it all, private laughter. But at some point, I'd started assembling that into into a story encouraged by others to kind of take it one step further. And then with further encouragement I took a step from it becoming a novel to it becoming the basis for some kind of television or film. I wasn't quite sure which it would be, I'm still not quite sure which one that would be to be honest. It potentially lends itself in both directions to a mini TV series or a film. That then, as I was trying to work that and get that into shape where it was it was financially viable to be done into some kind of series, the pandemic struck, and it looked like this whole thing was just going to be a kind of, not a waste of time wouldl be a wrong word, but kind of something that didn't come to an outcome, it didn't actually generate anything. And I was then encouraged by a local filmmaker who had been friends with in the Delaware area, her kids were at school with mine. She's a film producer, she encouraged me to write something different and that led me to writing one main script, which is a completely different genre, it's a sports related comedy and then I've written several other things, and I really enjoyed the script writing process. It's different to writing a novel. The things you have to think about, it's more like a novel is kind of long, obviously, you have to think about every aspect of it, and you have to paint every picture for the reader. Writing a script, you can't overplay that because the viewer sees a lot immediately so you have to focus on different things in producing a script. I actually find it more rewarding. You have to be more cryptic with it in some senses. You have to suggest things as opposed to spell them out and that kind of appeals to my problem solving nature. As you know, I think one of my biggest passions everyday or biggest pastimes is doing the cryptic crossword. So I found the script writing had kind of a sense to that as well. Certainly for the sort of stuff I want to write and it's like a three dimensional thing, even four dimensions with the timespan. So I've really enjoyed the script writing stuff. There are some things about it, it's very nuanced. There's a lot of rules about how you write stuff and the formatting and all that kind of stuff, which takes you a while to learn like any kind of new thing you're trying, it takes you a while to get to any level of accomplishment at it. And I look at things that I wrote when I first started doing it and look at it now and kind of turn my nose up and say, Oh, why would you write it like But that's an evolution. that? Yes. You kind of learn by doing and you get feedback from people. And what I meant by kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince, you get a lot of rejection. If you want to do genuine in the creative industry, it's probably true in all industries, but certainly the case very much the case in the creative side. And you hear it from lots of people, actors and musicians and performers of all kinds. You have to be comfortable with rejection and I've certainly be become that over the past several years.

Chris Burkhard: 9:43

You have that passion for your ideas. You know, Nick, I had the pleasure of watching your short film, The Fast Track Program and obviously, it's a film you want people to see and to watch and enjoy, and we can talk about how they can do that. I have to tell you what I was struck by is obviously, it's so obvious to you, but in watching it, I literally saw that process of you applying your years of leadership to the script. And I was wondering if it was almost and I know it was cathartic. It's a form of leadership development in watching that short film. So I enjoyed it immensely and I felt like the twelve minutes was an hour. It was that intense to me and enjoyed it immensely.

Nick Wilkinson: 10:36

Oh, thank you. Good, I appreciate that. Obviously, yes, a lot of experience did go into that. It was my own experience of a career and the politics and the people and whatever condensed into a twelve minute film, but every second of that film had some meaning to it, even, you know, the music in the background, when they're in one in a bar was chosen specifically to make a point. There's a scene where somebody's fishing, the way they were doing that were all kind of based on some kind of memory or some kind of message. And so yeah, it was fun. It was it was it was definitely packed from an emotional point of view. It was also fun in a couple of cases. I used this background actors, and people who'd actually been in those jobs in the companies that I'd worked for. And one person who came up and played a particular role, she said when I described what I want for it, I know exactly who this is. I know what to do. So yeah, there was a lot of parallels with my own life and history in it. But at the same time, it was also a fantastic learning experience to go from actually writing something to masterminding the direction of it, you know, the planning of it, and picking out locations for it, and how I wanted the costumes to be and whatever, and then going ahead and actually shooting it. It was the first time I directed a film shoot, obviously. It wasn't a huge crew of like you hear of hundreds on some of these mega movies but it was thirty people or so. And they kind of anticipated that I might be a little bit either nervous or not necessarily know what I was doing or whatever. But it didn't pan out like that and it felt very similar to taking a leadership position in a software company for example. A bunch of creative, very creative people, or with ideas that you need to find a way to listen to and show that you've listened to. But at the end of the day, or the end of the conversation they turn to you for a decision. So you feel that, what are we going to do Nick? Oh, okay, well, I think we'll do this. And then being calm and decisive and encouraging everybody to give it their best and that's what we did and I'm very proud of of the outcome. For my first go around, I don't think it's a bad little film at all.

Chris Burkhard: 13:20

How can people find that film?

Nick Wilkinson: 13:24

So at the moment, to be quite honest, they can't. There's various ways in which films get to the public, one of which is through what they call the festival circuit. So there are countless numbers of film festivals that kind of follow an annual pattern. Some of the bigger ones, some of the listeners will have heard of but then there are smaller ones like this one in in your neck of the woods in Rehoboth Beach in September. There's one in Philadelphia, there are numerous in New York, there's some in Washington, DC. They are all over the country and the big ones like Sundance people may have heard. All of them are quite difficult to get into because the programs are oversubscribed with people wanting their films to be seen. We've submitted the Fast Track Program to I think around a dozen festivals so far and none of them have got to the decision point yet. But while we're doing that, the rules of those things don't allow you to publicly put forward the film. You have to wait until it's been through the festivals. And then maybe if you're very lucky for a suddenly very lucky for a short film like this, somebody buys it and they screen it for you in a movie theater or a streamer, or more likely you put it on a site like YouTube or Vimeo or whatever, but for the moment, we can't do that. If you do public display of it like that, then you can't put it in the festival process. So we will wait and go through that, hopefully get into some of the festivals and get some get some awards or at least some recognition. And then once that season is complete, then we'll make appropriate arrangements for it to be seen as best we can.

Chris Burkhard: 15:28

What's the timing on that this is August of 2023. What's that process look like?

Nick Wilkinson: 15:34

So we put it into festivals through to the remaining part of this year, then we'll see how how we do in terms of whether we get in them and if we start getting some awards. But I would think by within six months or so. So early next year, maybe February of next year we should be able to just pull off the blinkers for it and and pass it on. In the meantime, we have had several private screenings, we had one at my home for all the people who've been involved in making the film, then we had one with another friend of mine who lives up in New York in in his home. And we're planning to have another one at my home sometime in September or October. So we're getting the message out there but in a way that keeps us in line with the rules of the festivals and hopefully that will pay dividends and and we'll get some recognition from one or two of the festivals, which would be a fabulous way to kind of mark the project.

Chris Burkhard: 16:44

I wish you the best in that and perhaps we'll have you back on and we can even show it live.

Nick Wilkinson: 16:50

Yes, that would be great. Yes, we'll have to arrange that once we can take the blinkers off, we'll give everybody the access to it somehow through your through the podcast portal or something, Chris.

Chris Burkhard: 17:01

That sounds terrific. So just kind of mixing things up. Nick, I was thinking about your career and there's the term career ladder and then there's this modern career lattice. And I felt like we've climbed the ladder and lattice, especially in hearing you enthusiastically talk about learning new things or applying the leadership model you've kind of used in tech and bringing it to creative, it makes total sense. You started in the military, did those experiences shape the leader you are today? And what what influences did that have on you?

Nick Wilkinson: 17:36

Yes, undoubtedly. Joining in my case, the British Royal Air Force was I think, essential part of of what I've been able to do in my life and the person I am. Again, at the time when you're doing it, you aren't necessarily thinking like that you know, getting up and polishing your boots every morning on basic training, you probably think was a absolute pain. But you know, I've never left the house with an untidy pair of shoes ever since kind of thing and you just absorb it. Probably the biggest thing that I learned in the military and it's actually something that people probably don't think about too much is or don't appreciate, if you've not been in the military, is to be successful as a leader in the military. I was an officer in the military in the Air Force, you actually have to do what now I think they refer to as servant leadership or humble leadership or whatever. Because if you come in and start trying to boss people around and abuse your position and assume that because you've got the stripes, you're in authority. There are a million ways in which the people who you're trying to boss around can make you look completely foolish. And straight out of training in my professional discipline in the Air Force, I was responsible for a group of maybe seventy folks, roughly seventy people were under my command as it were. And every one of them was older than me. Many of them had been in the Air Force longer than I'd been alive. And I soon appreciated that if I started being the Mr. High and Mighty and bossing them around, I would be sent to you know, there are the kind of apocryphal stories about the boss of a young officer being sent to the stores to fetch a long stand or a long wait, and literally standing hours in waiting for the long wait, oh, yeah, you've had that now. So you know, there's so many ways in which the old hands, the people with an ounce could really make you suffer if you tried to be overly bossy or authoritarian. But similarly, on the other hand, what I learned was those people wanted your help to make themselves successful, wanted to get promoted, wanted to get their squadron to win awards, wanted to be the best unit on the base, wanted to win, to be proud of what they'd achieved. And if you could help them do that in some way, and they quickly adopted you and supported you and wanted you to be successful. So that very first group, when it came to, every year that the group had something called the Air Officer Commanding inspection, which was like a quality test, you'd call it into civilian life for that particular unit. And we got an outstanding and an air officer commanders commendation for our unit. And everyone there kind of was basking in the pride of that and I was obviously very proud to have led that team. And they then became very supportive and proud of me because we'd achieved something together. So that lesson, I think, and when I left, and one of the things that happens in the military is you get moved around very often. And when I left that group, they gave me a plaque to reference this success, I've still got it. And that sense of achieving something with a group being responsible for other people's success and their pride was a big, big learning for me and one that I've always tried to put into practice subsequently.

Chris Burkhard: 21:38

My early leadership experiences I did not learn those lessons, Nick. It seems so counterintuitive to me, in the military environment, because I think command and control I think, leader title, earned privilege. Were you unusual or was that the leadership philosophy that was

Nick Wilkinson: 22:00

That was the leadership philosophy was taught taught? also, I was in a job in the military that relied upon me leading or being nominally the leader of a large team. I wasn't a pilot, you know, I was a ground officer responsible for what now is given the sexy title of logistics, back in my day, it was the rather mundane supply and movements. But we bought stuff, we stored stuff, we put stuff in airplanes, we threw stuff out of the back of airplanes you know, it was that role. And there are a lot of people working in the ground branches of the airforce only point one of 1% of pilots. I think if you're in a real cutting edge, warfighting role or a pilot, or if you're in the Marines or something like that, then perhaps the command and control instinct is greater. Certainly when you're actually really in the teeth of a conflict or something like that. But generally speaking, the military teaches good habits around the intersection of the team, the task and the individual. And at times, those are I remember a key part of my training, this Venn diagram of the team, the task and the individual and how at times, depending on the circumstances and the priorities of the moment, the emphasis could change from the team needing a morale boost, let's take a break and you're on a force March training thing, let's take a break and have some hot chocolate or something. The task, you know, we've got thirty seconds to get to the top of that hill, and we take the flag kind of thing. Or then the individual, you know, Jimmy Schmitz has tripped over and hurt his ankle, and we got to take time out to help him. So those three circles of influence and how you had to pay them different attention at different points in a particular exercise where it was another thing that I remembered. Again, you know, something was ingrained into me and I've been able to refer to in subsequent phases of my life.

Chris Burkhard: 24:21

So in keeping with the leadership theme, you've advised leaders, you've run companies, you're a mentor to young people starting business ideas. Continuing with this theme of leadership and lessons, what themes do you usually find that you focus on based on your experiences when you're in those roles mentoring and advising others? What are the lessons that are common?

Nick Wilkinson: 24:49

So one of the things that I find certainly for younger entrepreneurs, Well, I I was going to say that but I'm going to backtrack and say I find it quite frequently even in mature companies is really the need to actually take a beat and decide really understand what is it you're trying to do? What is the goal? What is your mission? What is your end game? You know, if you had a magic wand, what would you say that would be the the outcome? And I think a lot of times organizations, people, leaders get lost in the process and get fixated on the hurly burly and just consumed by tactical decision making, that they don't really know what they're trying to do. And I think, you know, social media to some extent, certainly electronic media, the ubiquity of iPhones and whatever, they're just consumed with minutia and don't really prioritize things properly. And I think that's really endemic certainly in the business cultures that I've been involved in. And getting people to take a beat, you know, I was taught again, at one point, I think it was in my big publicly traded career, that there's the difference between working in the business and working on the business. And if you only ever work in the business, then things never really improve. But leaders have to find some time, or everybody really has to be given some time even if it's only a small sliver to work on the business. And actually, if you take that time and go and really focus on what is my goal here, then you can have a strategy, then you can implement tactics to implement that strategy and you start to see progress. But what I often encounter when first getting involved in an organization is not that, just a lot of kind of hamster wheel type stuff. And and a thousand decisions that day, none of them particularly profound, and all that energy just kind of disappearing into the air and no progress.

Chris Burkhard: 27:32

Nick, I've heard it described as a management team getting in the car and making left turns and going around the block over and over again. You know, no destination

Nick Wilkinson: 27:43

Yes, while I was scrolling through their LinkedIn in mind. feed, while I was changing the radio channel fifteen times, while I was having a conversation with somebody on the phone. It's all that and more is what I see.

Chris Burkhard: 27:58

Action is not results or busy is not outcomes. I'd be curious whether you call it a North Star, or I think Collins called it a BHAG, I think you're not talking that long range target. I feel like you're talking about more operational one to three year thinking. How would you riff on that? Is it a combination of both?

Nick Wilkinson: 28:25

Well, that really depends to why I'm getting involved with an organization and what they've asked me to do and the status. Typically, if I'm getting involved with a very early stage company and giving advice to an entrepreneur. And yeah, that tends to be in the medium term.

Chris Burkhard: 28:41

I'd be curious. I don't know if these will So yeah, one to two years if that, but it's still a more long term horizon than they're typically making decisions about now. If I get involved with more of a mature company, kind of like a mid market, and they're looking maybe for an exit or some kind of significant investment or whatever, then that can have a two plus year horizon. And the objectives that they're trying to fill can be more substantial but again, the horizon is longer than typically that they've been been taking decisions on. So I guess I try and give some kind of slow things down, look a little further away, plan things out. And then your action can be if you know where you're going, then you can make mid course corrections. It's like if you're sailing a boat kind of thing, if you don't know where you're headed then every time it's windy or the wind changes whatever, you're going off course all the time, whereas if you know, I'm going for that landmark over there, maybe I might have to tack a bit here because this quarter sales are a bit lean or so and so's quit but if a tack back next quarter, hire somebody new and I'll be back on course again. If you don't where you going then everything's a crisis. resonate for you but I think about lean startup methodology, you know, the book and its influence on that. I also think, I'm sure you bumped into some companies that use a business planning process like an EOS traction or scaling. up. I often think that those methodologies cause quarterly ninety day sprints and maybe get you driving around making left turns over and over again too. It's a natural sprint to get something done. You never lift your head.

Nick Wilkinson: 30:38

Yes, I think like any kind of methodology or heuristic tool of any kind, it all needs to be thought through and applied with a modicum of common sense or even a pinch of salt, whatever you want to say. There is no some kind of structured approach, like the Jim Collins thing with the BHAGS and whatever, Good to Great I think that book was. I remember that was the Bible in around 2006 or 2007, something like that.

Chris Burkhard: 31:07

It's still the number one book, business book says it.

Nick Wilkinson: 31:11

Okay, because it has some fairly prescriptive steps and it is good stuff. Back in the day, for me when I did a business degree, it was Michael Porter's Five Competitive Forces of Strategy. Michael Porter was the guru at the time, and I think he still is as well. But every one of those to me is like it, that's input into the business leader and their decision making and their execution of a plan for their company. It provides some structure, but it has to be tuned, it has to be thought through and how it would apply in a particular environment, not just become if we follow the methodology, we'll get the right answer that you know, doesn't that isn't the case. So, I think the role of coaches as you do, Chris and I do. The role of business councils and the environment, the networking type of fact to learn from other people. Reading extensively, not just the guru type books but reading about actual companies experience and individuals experience of what things work for them. So being sensitized to the right way to go about things not just following a methodology I think is important for for success. The Lean Startup I think is another example. Yes, it has some extremely good principles but it can be really boiled down to one thing. Don't build it in assume they'll come. Check they're going to come then build it. See what they want, then build it, preferably get them to pay for building it too, it's great ss of many of these other things. I very much applaud people learning about them and putting them away in their experience bank to use, but don't take any one of them as being like the panacea and it's all going to come magically true because you read a book.

Chris Burkhard: 33:32

So I'm going to zing you in a different direction just because I think it makes for good radio. You started the rumor with me that you're quite the chef these days. How does that creativity in the kitchen fit your life story? I know it expresses a lot of things about where you are in life, but why don't you run with that.

Nick Wilkinson: 33:59

So, being a accomplished cook is an fairly recent probably last five or six years, maybe a bit longer. And it goes along with the reduced number of children in the house and all culminating in empty nesting.

Chris Burkhard: 34:25

You mean they don't have your cooking?

Nick Wilkinson: 34:30

No, so at one stage in your life, one stage in my life and I'm sure you have parallels. I had all three kids at home. I was at that time in a very travel, intense job. A lot of time away from home. And when I was home, there was dance practice or there was a soccer game to go watch or you know something with the family and my wife wonderfully bore the lion's share of all the cooking and all that fairing around or whatever and I did what I could when I was ther. Since the mid 2010's, I haven't had a job with quite so much travel, I've been fortunate enough to be in charge of when that travel would take place. Because one of the one of the good things about rising to a leadership position when you're the most, risen leadership position, you can make decisions when you travel. So that less trave, less kids at home to need to be run around, they get independent, they can drive themselves, or you know, eventually they go off to college and all the rest of it. And that leads to put it simply more time to do stuff. And during that time, I've gradually learned to cook pretty much anything. Most recently, the last several years I have become not quite a vegetarian. I have chicken but I don't tend to eat red meat. I try and eat vegetarian as much as possible, or fish or chicken but I like good food, I'm not going to eat boring bland foods simply because I'm not having a lot of red meat. And there are ways to cook and prepare very attractive, tasty, vegetarian food but it takes some time. You have to learn the techniques to get flavor out of things and it takes some time learning it but also it tends to be a longer process cooking things than if you're doing a meat based thing. So all of that's gone together to kind of give me a lot of outlet for cooking. I also like to cook for big groups. Regularly we have parties at the house and I'll cook something for fifty, sixty people and I take pride in that. And it's also a conversation thing and it allows me to, as they say to just stay in the kitchen at parties and not have to go and socialize with people.

Chris Burkhard: 37:09

Yes, well it accomplishes a lot. You're certainly the most important person at those parties. I find it the person that can cook, they get all the attention. The change in diet, maybe I just hang out with like minded people. I'm certainly on a similar journey. Is that a health decision? I know one of the things that is your passion, your pride is your love of football, you still play, you have a team. I think that'll help us transition to your next creative thing rather nicely. How's all that tie together Nick?

Nick Wilkinson: 37:46

So, since I was a very small boy, I've been an avid and we'll use football and know that some of your viewers will understand we mean soccer and others will know that it's football. I've been a bit of a football fan and I've played probably since I was four or five. I had a period when I also played rugby in parallel and I would play rugby in the weekend football at the weekends and vice versa. Fortunately in the Air Force, was another good thing about the Air Force I could play. I don't think I ever worked on Wednesday afternoon because I was good enough for football cricket and rugby to always play one of them for the station team every Wednesday afternoon so that was that was a blessing. Fast forward to when we first moved to America which was in Connecticut and I got involved just as a way to get to know people in the area. I picked up playing casual soccer games, football games up there. Then I moved to Delaware and got involved in similarly, we had a couple of times when we moved away from Delaware we went to Australia and and also Washington DC. And I played for teams there and now I play here, it's actually in the major and surrounding area in Pennsylvania with a bunch of guys similar age range. Actually varied, some of them are a bit younger. Really great bunch of guys, very global. You know it's run by Greek guy and there's French guys and lots of people from South America and you know, a really nice group of guys you know a few Brits ane Irish. You'll always find them around football field. It's my main pastime. I'm not one for going to the gym. I'm not a huge runner or anything like that I keep in shape by playing football to play football.

Chris Burkhard: 40:02

A few years back, I started Outside Insights really as a platform to do good. The pandemic was raging, a time of confusion, angst and it kind of triggered some creativity where for me, I was constantly spending time with either entrepreneural or business clients or the workforce and there were problems. Problems with people not necessarily being where they want to be in life. So the irony is, is Outside iInsights and my book Opposite The Crowd, which I co- authored with my dad, Alan Burkhard, were kind of born together, as Alan was some of those early guests. And those guest shows turned into chapters of our book, it was an audio book first. It can be found anywhere you listen to audio books or listen to podcasts. It's out in both. But I did want to share for those of you that are interested in reading our story and there really is some great stuff about helping you have the life you want. Helping you work on leadership or master change. There's some great stuff in there and that book is now available. It's available in a hardback from Amazon and the Kindle as well as audible versions are up. And I ask that you just you know, you're on Amazon anyway, ordering stuff for the house, check out Opposite The Crowd and let me know what you think. Thank you All right, quick commercial break there. Nick, we were just ramping up a bit talking a bit about your next film project, Old Boys. I'll hand it back to you.

Nick Wilkinson: 42:09

Yes, so this is a fun project. It's a soccer football, I use the word interchangeably these days now Chris, so you just get used to it. So I'd say a soccer related comedy set around, I guess we can say loosely based on real life events. It's an old guys from Pennsylvania, who are variously cajoled, hoodwinked, tricked by their general manager to enter a World Masters tournament in England. They are under qualified, under experienced and certainly the underdogs. So they go over to England, and initially they go to a small little provincial town, when the managers told them they're going to a big city, and they are welcomed somewhat by the locals. But in the same way many Americans are welcome to when they go to England a mixture of kind of love and, and mickey taking. So that our tagline for the film I should have said is, is the Ted Lasso meets The Full Monty because it's in northern England. But then as happens in these kinds of movies, they find a way to win through and get to the final, which is played in a big stadium. And then I won't talk more about the finale because then nobody would even watch the film. So, we've been working on it for a couple of years, the scripts in a really good place. We're working now on the casting and getting hopefully into production. We had at one point thought we would go into production this summer but circumstances didn't quite work out like that. Now we've got strikes in at the moment with actors and writers and all the rest of it. So we're looking to actually go into production with it next spring and hopefully, this one will be a commercial release, hopefully go into movie theaters and then on to video on demand or streaming or whatever. So call all the boys and yeah, so that's kind of born of my own experience. And again, got a DNA of lots of people that I've met playing the game over the years in many different places and seems to be taking the boxes for what the public wants coming out of the pandemic. There's a lot of call for light comedy, feel good. It's a very multi generational thing we've got the families play a big roles, the teenage daughter of one of the guys ends up playing a big role. It's a fun film and we are excited to get into production.

Chris Burkhard: 44:51

Coming from an American who fell in love with football soccer,Wrexham is fun as a documentary, Ted Lasso is. So Nick, if you ever were to write your character into a movie, and people are going to see this on YouTube, now you realize it's not just audible and those things. Who would you love to play you if you ever wrote yourself into a film?

Nick Wilkinson: 45:18

Oh, who would I like to get to play myself in a film? Let's think about that one a minute.

Chris Burkhard: 45:27

Surprise question, I know. So indulge yourself, you know.

Nick Wilkinson: 45:31

Indulge myself. Well, it would have to be someone who comes from the northern part of England most actors that you see playing roles, well, a lot of them British accents, you would kind of assume they're from the south. So a northern English actor who could play me, so maybe the one person who comes to mind is from Sheffield actually, which is a little further away from where I was born, but kind of same northern thing is Sean Bean. He's been a fairly prominent actor in British turf. We did actually at one point consider asking him to be in our oldy boys movie, but we decided having a guy who's very much seen as an Englishman playing an American in a movie where it was important to be American wouldn't quite work. But yeah, he could be someone. I guess I could go, you know, my wife would say, why not Daniel Craig, and I'll give you the honest answer. Not Daniel Craig, because he's a huge Liverpool fan and I wouldn't allow myself to be played by a huge Liverpool fan.

Chris Burkhard: 46:45

Red Devil would never allow that. It's good to know you have principles and values, Nick.

Nick Wilkinson: 46:52

Yes, exactly. My friends whose opinion I value hugely, would probably never speak to me again if I allowed myself to be played by the Daniel Craig.

Chris Burkhard: 47:04

Well, we look forward to hearing more about that. So, I know you keep growing and evolving. your story is all about that. Do you have a favorite book that you would recommend? One favorite book?

Nick Wilkinson: 47:18

I have a number of books that I've read multiple times and enjoy reading, but I wouldn't say I've got one absolute favorite. You know, I've got books that I read from like a business or biographical perspective. I read a lot of history and biography but I also like a lot of fictional stuff. Probably great expectations is a Dickens type stuff.

Chris Burkhard: 47:58

Exactly, just whatever everybody's reading is always interesting, you know, because it's new to somebody

Nick Wilkinson: 48:04

I like things that can help me understand the else. topic in detail. So this perhaps gives you the best example. So, as another film project I'm interested in doing and I've

Chris Burkhard: 48:16

That's what I immediately thought about. started doing, I'm looking to write a murder mystery, who done it type film. If you saw the knives out thing over Christmas,

Nick Wilkinson: 48:36

Right, so something like that, but a much more modest budget set in Delaware, so I can shoot it locally and help breathe some life into the near corpse of the Delaware film industry. And in order to kind of get my head into that space, I've just started reading a series, an actual companion of all the books of Dorothy L Sayers about Lord Peter Wimsey, which is a British, kind of who done it, like a parallel to kind of like an Agatha Christie type stuff. And I'm reading it one because it's entertaining and quite funny, but also because it gives you ideas for ways in which those kinds of stories get told, how the mysteries are revealed, how the plots are constructed, that kind of thing. So I simulate, you know, I read for pleasure, but I also read for education even when I'm reading fiction, you know, to see how things have gotten done and how you can learn from that. Not to plagiarize things, because obviously doesn't lead to anything new. But just to help understand how people have done things before and things you can you can use, like putty that you can work into your own frame.

Chris Burkhard: 49:59

There's an approach, there's an outline, there's a methodology from which to build your own stuff. I think I understand that kind of foundational learning. So, a couple of closing questions. If you go back in time, what advice would you give your twenty one year old self?

Nick Wilkinson: 50:17

Oh, what advice would I give my myself? I think

Chris Burkhard: 50:17

Yes I think change is always hard in the most of the things that when I've taken a swing at something and don't make decisions to do something new, it has come off. I made a decision to leave the Air Force and gone into civilian life. I made the decision to come to the United States while working for CSC. I made decisions for which company I work for subsequently. The only time when I didn't really do that was I had opportunities to go to a different company and do other roles at points in time, at one particular point in time. And I didn't take it because I was too comfortable and I think the discomfort is the sign of positive move, if you're within your comfort zone completely. And I've gone to that point, I'd been with the same company twenty odd years and everything seemed to be nice. And you know, they give you a lot of things that prevent you from thinking about other things, most especially stock options. But I kind of got into a position where I didn't make the bold move and then regretted it subsequently. So I think always reminding my younger self to you know, what is that they used to say, "you miss all the shots you short term and it's hard to realize that change is better in never take." Don't ever allow yourself to get too complacent with things. the long term. You've talked a lot about things that you're excited about and you've got a lot left to achieve. Are you heading more towards the creative or do you still see yourself being CEO of of another tech company?

Nick Wilkinson: 52:21

To be honest on any given day, I could give you answers to yes to both those questions. It really depends on what comes first and what the circumstances are at the time. If I get an opportunity to go and lead another tech company, and I think I would do it well and it's a good opportunity. And most importantly, I think there's growth there for me and the people that I'd be working with and for I think I can learn from and enjoy. And then I will do that if I keep turning out scripts and people get excited about them. And they want to go make the films and there's an opportunity for me to do that and also be involved as a director, then I'll do that. At the moment. I'm kind of, you know, I don't have both feet in either one camp. I'm kind of riding the rail. But if something kinda of came up that was like one hundred percent, you have to be this side or that side of the rail, then I would willingly make that choice and get on with it.

Chris Burkhard: 53:27

Makes a ton of sense. And Nick, as we talked about as I'm sure you're going to have success with the festivals, and you've got the next project in the crosshairs. I look forward to having you back where we can talk more about these as you know the success I'm sure they'll be. It's been great to have you as a guest, Nick.

Nick Wilkinson: 53:47

All right. Thanks very much, Chris. It's been been fun chatting to you.